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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat with retired

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Speaker 1: Detective Superintendent Mark Ainsworth. Welcome back, Mark, Thanks Gerry again.

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Speaker 1: Even during the break, I was thinking about the stuff

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Speaker 1: that you were talking about, youth crime. So it's given

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Speaker 1: me a lot the thoughts on different approaches. Well, I

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Speaker 1: want to talk about now, and I think it will

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Speaker 1: lead us into another topic of domestic violence and issues

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Speaker 1: across the country happening. But there was a high profile

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Speaker 1: murder investigation that you oversaw, and that was the murder

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Speaker 1: of Alison baden Clay in twenty twelve. I believe it was.

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Speaker 2: That's correct.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell our listeners about that crime, just how

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Speaker 1: it started and about the investigation, just the breakdown of

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Speaker 1: what happened.

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Speaker 2: No problems. I was actually started on the Saturday as

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Speaker 2: relieving sorry back in the Moral as the regional crime coordinator,

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Speaker 2: Detective Superintendent. I'd been on holidays and that Friday afternoon

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Speaker 2: I've got a phone call the last day of leave

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Speaker 2: that we'd had this missing person that looked a bit suspicious.

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Speaker 2: Saturday morning, gone into where our major Instrument room was

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Speaker 2: set up and got the details. The whole investigative investigative

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Speaker 2: team were there and we started and started a full

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Speaker 2: full bloind major incident room, and in conjunction with that,

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Speaker 2: we had a Ford command post set up at the

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Speaker 2: Brookfield Showgrounds where we had people searching for Allison. Basically

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Speaker 2: how it started was on the Friday morning, Allison's husband, Jared,

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Speaker 2: had rang police and said my wife's gone for a

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Speaker 2: walk and she hasn't come home and I'm concerned about

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Speaker 2: where she is. Uniform police attended his place and did

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Speaker 2: a sensational job. When they got there, he was very

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Speaker 2: aloof and they noticed some scratch marks on his face,

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Speaker 2: which he said that yeah, there was a razor cut.

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Speaker 2: He spoke about an extra marital affair that he had

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Speaker 2: to the uniform police. The uniform police called their supervisor,

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Speaker 2: who called the CIB who attended the scene and from

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Speaker 2: the great work initially from the uniform officers, full major

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Speaker 2: Incident room was set up. The house that Jared was

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Speaker 2: in was declared a crime scene and we held that

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Speaker 2: crime seen for a week to allow the forensic officers

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Speaker 2: to do a thorough investigation.

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Speaker 1: Mark, can I just interrupt? That's great, you're relaying how

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Speaker 1: it happened. But with the uniform guys going there, did

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Speaker 1: they guys and girls? Was there something suspicious about him

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Speaker 1: from the start that that didn't feel like it added up?

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Speaker 1: What was he saying that his wife just went for

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Speaker 1: a walk and she hasn't returned. How long had she

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Speaker 1: been missing for.

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Speaker 2: She'd only gone What he claimed was she got up

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Speaker 2: and went for a walk every morning at six o'clock.

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Speaker 2: At this particular day, she was to go to a

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Speaker 2: real estate convention down the Gold Coast, and he was

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Speaker 2: concerned that she hadn't come home from her walk. Uniform

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Speaker 2: so what time of day was that it was around?

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Speaker 2: I think it was around from memory, around seven am

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Speaker 2: or a little bit before seven am. Told the police

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Speaker 2: said he'd been out driving around trying to find her.

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Speaker 2: He'd been trying to wring her mobile phone, no answer,

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Speaker 2: and it was totally out of character for her to

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Speaker 2: disappear under those circumstances. The big thing that raised the

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Speaker 2: suspicion of the uniform was the scratches on his face.

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Speaker 2: Him talking about an extra marital affair, and that's that

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Speaker 2: was their big suspicions.

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Speaker 1: And just as generally, what are we talking about with

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Speaker 1: the scratches? How significant were they?

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Speaker 2: They were very significant, the scratches like it looked like

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Speaker 2: if he claimed his claim was true, the raisor blabe

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Speaker 2: was certainly out of control. It left massive, big scratches

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Speaker 2: and just depicted in media down the side of his

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Speaker 2: face there very much inconsistent with the razor cut.

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Speaker 1: And then talking about the extra marital affair that he had.

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Speaker 1: It's like he's going on the on the fenceive putting

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Speaker 1: the putting the defense up straight away, like if you

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Speaker 1: dig deep, you're going to find this. So he told

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Speaker 1: the police there when he's reporting his wife missing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there was just a range of scenarios that raised

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Speaker 2: their suspicion, which you forced him to contact the local

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Speaker 2: to O actives.

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Speaker 1: I'm just putting my sort of homicide had on too,

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Speaker 1: and like at seven am, or go for a work

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Speaker 1: at six am, and it's pretty quick that he's called

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Speaker 1: the police. Hasn't foanned anyone else, And yeah, it.

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Speaker 2: Through red flags as the investigation started. There were a

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Speaker 2: number of other phone calls and one of those was

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Speaker 2: to his lawyer. Now, if your wife or partner had

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Speaker 2: gone missing, would you be ringing the lawyer straight up?

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: The other one was's checks on the fifth amendments right

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Speaker 2: to silence. So there was red flags once the investigation started,

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Speaker 2: from the minute he jumped on the phone to reporting

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Speaker 2: it to the police all the way through.

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Speaker 1: Okay, now you said the place was set up as

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Speaker 1: a crime scene. Was anything found in the crime scene? No?

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Speaker 2: What there was three vehicles there. We seized all the

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Speaker 2: vehicles for crime scene examination. In the house, there was

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Speaker 2: no evidence of tissues or anything which consistent for razor cut,

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Speaker 2: you know, the blood, anything like that, and inside the

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Speaker 2: house was pretty much unremarkable from a crime scene point

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Speaker 2: of view. As it transpired later on, there was a

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Speaker 2: white Captiva which was only I think from memory was

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Speaker 2: eight weeks old, which that was the car that Allison

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Speaker 2: was driving, and as the investigation progressed, that came up

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Speaker 2: some significant evidence in that regard. What happened was a

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Speaker 2: full scientific examination was done of the car and there

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Speaker 2: was bloodstains found in the rear driver's side area against

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Speaker 2: a metal clip which is used for clipping seats back in.

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Speaker 2: An examination of that showed blood coming from that clip

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Speaker 2: running down in a downward direction, and as investigation progressed,

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Speaker 2: that was identified through DNA as being Allison's blood. Interestingly,

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Speaker 2: in the back of that car was a number of

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Speaker 2: kid's toys that was stacked neatly in the back of

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Speaker 2: the car. When we interviewed a housekeeper, she said those

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Speaker 2: toys have never been removed underneath the house for a

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Speaker 2: number of months because the kids had outground them. They

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Speaker 2: were in the car. So that that as investigation progressed along,

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Speaker 2: you know, Ellison's body was found and it was found

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Speaker 2: in an area.

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Speaker 1: Yes, sorry, Mark, just on that. What was I would

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Speaker 1: imagine there would have been the inquiries about the relationships

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Speaker 1: I had. Was there any issues with the relationships, had

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Speaker 1: there been any history of violence? And looking at the husband,

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Speaker 1: who I think it would be fair to say was

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Speaker 1: a suspect right from the start. Was there anything else

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Speaker 1: that jumped out in those inquiries that added to the suspicion.

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Speaker 2: The big, big thing that really jumped out was his

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Speaker 2: lawyer attending and saying, my client will not be answering

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Speaker 2: any questions. Now, interesting, is that is normal advice or

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Speaker 2: normal behavior if the if your partner has gone for

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Speaker 2: a walk. So that part was significant. There's no history

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Speaker 2: of domestic violence on any police database at that address

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Speaker 2: or with the people involved. Jared was in the Kenmare

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Speaker 2: Chamber of Commerce and pretty much respected amongst the business

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Speaker 2: people in the area. He ran a local real estate agent,

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Speaker 2: not a very successful one as we later found out. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so that's that was very interesting from the word go. Look,

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Speaker 2: you know, even suggestions were made to his lawyer along

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Speaker 2: the line. So you know, Jared's had an argument with

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Speaker 2: Alison and he's done something dreadful. Now is the time

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Speaker 2: to tell us, but it just will not be cooperating

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Speaker 2: and that was all the way through, right even up

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Speaker 2: to the end of the trial.

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Speaker 1: Did he go on TV? And I seem to have

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Speaker 1: a recollection of him going on TV and making an

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Speaker 1: appeal for the public.

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Speaker 2: He certainly did when I on the Saturday morning when

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Speaker 2: we kicked off the Major Incident room, which spoken to

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Speaker 2: We've spoken to him about doing an appeal for Allison

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Speaker 2: if she's out there, to come forward. He refused to

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Speaker 2: do that, putting up Jeff and Priscilla, Allison's parents to

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Speaker 2: do that, to that appeal for Allison to come home.

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Speaker 2: And you had an information to come forward, I think

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Speaker 2: you know, the significant public interest in the matter. The

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Speaker 2: media kept hounding Jared and his sister and family to

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Speaker 2: the point that he decided to make a public appeal,

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Speaker 2: but that was off his own back, nothing to do

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Speaker 2: with any request from police. And we were we were

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Speaker 2: made aware of it obviously by the media that he'd

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Speaker 2: made a little little appearance.

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Speaker 1: A fewcodile crocodile tears there. Okay, so what just giving

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Speaker 1: people that an understanding. How many how many staff did

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Speaker 1: you have working on that investigation and what was the

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Speaker 1: breakdown of the investigative team and was called a strike force.

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Speaker 2: Note it was a task force. It was two separate parts.

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Speaker 2: In the initial part Allison, we had to try and

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Speaker 2: locate her, so the brook Showgrounds was probably about five

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Speaker 2: hundred meters from her house where he claimed she's left

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Speaker 2: to go for a walk. We had a Ford command post,

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Speaker 2: there were searchers involving multiple police, We had recruits from

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Speaker 2: the academy, a lot of gold mines around that area,

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Speaker 2: so we had expertise from the local council ses searching

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Speaker 2: for her. And that search went for eleven days, so

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Speaker 2: we've got full on there every single day. Allison's parents

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Speaker 2: were at that place. His parents, sorry, Jared did not

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Speaker 2: turn up there the consistent. At the same time as

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Speaker 2: running that, we had the Major Incident Room, which involved

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Speaker 2: the probably at its peak probably forty detectives following things through.

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Speaker 2: We're getting a lot of information. I think in total,

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Speaker 2: fifteen hundred pieces of information from crime stoppers came in.

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Speaker 2: Every single piece of that information was run out. Also

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Speaker 2: at the time, you know, there was electronics, violence and

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Speaker 2: physical surveillance being undertaken, and examination of computers and mobile phones.

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Speaker 1: The magnitude of an investigation like that, and yeah, there's

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Speaker 1: red flags that you guys had picked up right from

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Speaker 1: the start. But red flags are one thing. It's about

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Speaker 1: gathering the evidence that you got sufficient evidence to charge

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Speaker 1: him with the incident. Room running like that. The search

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Speaker 1: over eleven days, Was it eleven days that Allison's body

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Speaker 1: was found.

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Speaker 2: Yes, eleven days. We had a fellow that was kayaking,

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Speaker 2: kayaking up off a tribute off the Brisbane Reverend Collo

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Speaker 2: Creek and that's when he was the one that discovered

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Speaker 2: Allison's body on the mud banks there.

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Speaker 1: And what the crime scene set up there, what was

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Speaker 1: revealed about Allison's body.

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Speaker 2: It had been there for the duration, what had happened.

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Speaker 2: As part of the investigation, we set up a time

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Speaker 2: lapse camera because it was tidal at the tart part

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Speaker 2: of the creek and where the body was dumped, that

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Speaker 2: was above the high tide mark. So I think that

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Speaker 2: was one mistake that Jared made when he dumped Allison's body,

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Speaker 2: that he couldn't even get the tides right. Had she

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Speaker 2: ended up in the tides there and the Brisbane Review

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Speaker 2: Tribute was about two hundred meters away, the body could

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Speaker 2: have ended up anywhere. Unfortunately, during the period of time

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Speaker 2: we're looking for her, we had quite a ray of

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Speaker 2: weather patterns. There's a lot of rain, very hot days,

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Speaker 2: so the body was very much decomposed and from that

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Speaker 2: decomposition we were not able to obtain any sufficient evidence

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Speaker 2: like fingernail scratches or skin or anything under the fingernails.

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Speaker 2: We sent away some samples of bone to a professor

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Speaker 2: in Western Australia to see whether or not he could

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Speaker 2: determine whether there was any consistency with drowning or death beforehand.

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Speaker 2: That came back that there's no evidence of drowning. We

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Speaker 2: never had a cause of death the decomposition, which was

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Speaker 2: a bit of a challenge in moving forward to charge,

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Speaker 2: as she'd be aware of. But during the investigation we

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Speaker 2: talked earlier about the teamwork and I relied solely on

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Speaker 2: my detective, senior sergeant and the crew, and I must

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Speaker 2: say they are absolutely brilliant, you know, from the investigators,

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Speaker 2: from the scenes of crime people, from everyone that had

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Speaker 2: an involvement, The commitment and dedication was second to none.

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Speaker 2: You've got a mother that's gone missing that stage. She

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Speaker 2: had three young girls, I think they were about eight,

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Speaker 2: six and four hadn't seen their mother. The father, you know,

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Speaker 2: as a suspect in our eyes, and his behavior was

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Speaker 2: a bit of radic shortly after she went missing, and

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Speaker 2: it really motivated police to really dig in.

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Speaker 1: I can picture what it would be like, the dynamics

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Speaker 1: of an investigation of that nature and the way you

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Speaker 1: describe it and the suspicions attached. So obviously jump up, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: calling the police after an hour solicitor and affair scratch

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Speaker 1: marks and that it's circumstantial evidence. It's enough to add

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Speaker 1: a suspicion. You've recovered the body, but that's not revealing much.

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Speaker 1: There's still so much work to do and it needs

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Speaker 1: the attention at tension to detail. So you had a

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Speaker 1: detective senior sergeant running the team, Yes, that's correct, ye,

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Speaker 1: and then for the or say at different times on

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Speaker 1: the investigation, how long did the investigation run before there

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Speaker 1: was a serious discussion about whether we've got sufficient evidence

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Speaker 1: to charge him?

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Speaker 2: Right up until the thirteenth of June is when we

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Speaker 2: went and picked him up and charged him.

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Speaker 1: Even so, what's that two months?

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Speaker 2: Just under two months, And it was that morning we

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Speaker 2: put a strategy into place, and at that morning, after

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Speaker 2: our strategy ran out, we made a determination to arrest

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Speaker 2: him with that stuff age. There was a lot of

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Speaker 2: toing throwing between people a little bit more senior to

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Speaker 2: me giving advice that you haven't got a cause of death,

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Speaker 2: how are you going to charge? You know, the usual

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Speaker 2: experts coming in that have no involvement in it with

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Speaker 2: their opinion. But the team we had twenty three pieces

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Speaker 2: of circumstantial evidence and we were one hundred percent committed

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Speaker 2: that we had sufficient to charge. And what put the

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Speaker 2: icing on the cake for us is during this investigation,

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Speaker 2: as we said before in your briefings, you get information

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Speaker 2: or you get suggestions from that team, and we engaged

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Speaker 2: a botanist who was leading botanist in Queensland. Because when

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Speaker 2: Allison was found she had bits of foliage in her hair.

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Speaker 2: He was able to examine that foliage and determine the

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Speaker 2: types of plant material that that was. And interestingly, when

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Speaker 2: we went back to the baden Clay house, each one

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Speaker 2: of those plants were at the rear of the house

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Speaker 2: and significantly there was a cat's claw I think it

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Speaker 2: was called, which was dangling over the back of the

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Speaker 2: garage near where the Captiva had been parked. So when

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Speaker 2: he lifted Allison up to put her in the back,

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Speaker 2: of that captiva, the cat claw according to her hair.

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Speaker 2: The work of that botanist was absolutely significant, and really,

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Speaker 2: you know, we're talking about circumstantial evidence, but that was

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Speaker 2: really high level circumstantial evidence that he came up with.

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Speaker 2: Fortunate for us, the botanist lived in that vicinity of

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Speaker 2: that area, and he knew the area at the back

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Speaker 2: of his hand, and there was no other pieces of

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Speaker 2: foliage that was found in her hair anywhere in the

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Speaker 2: near vicinity of where which she was found, So his

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Speaker 2: evidence was significant.

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Speaker 1: I can see why that had been an exciting moment

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Speaker 1: getting that piece piece of evidence and linking it. But

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Speaker 1: again that's the attention to detail. And I think you

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Speaker 1: mentioned twenty three pieces of circumstantial evidence. Look at circumstantial

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Speaker 1: evidence like on its own, that doesn't really paint a picture,

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Speaker 1: but when you add them all up together and you

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Speaker 1: sit down and look at them, and it's interesting. You

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Speaker 1: were talking about, you know, the decision to charge or not,

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Speaker 1: because sometimes that's the hardest part of being a homicide detective.

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Speaker 1: That Okay, let's break it down. What have we got here,

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Speaker 1: And you're looking and you think it's one thing to

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Speaker 1: think a person's done at crime it's another thing to

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Speaker 1: be able to prove that person has done a crime.

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Speaker 1: I can imagine there would have been the naysayers. There

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Speaker 1: always is when you're trying to make decisions, whether that

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Speaker 1: comes from above or below, there's always you know, it's

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Speaker 1: a robust decision to make. You guys obviously felt as

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Speaker 1: a team that there was sufficient evidence to charge. When

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Speaker 1: he was arrested, what was his attitude. I would imagine

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Speaker 1: someone like that would still be denying it.

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Speaker 2: One hundred percent. Gary, You're still denying it. And he

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Speaker 2: called his solicit up and wouldn't talk to us. Look,

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Speaker 2: he was a bloke that was full of his own

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Speaker 2: self importance and thought he could beat everything. But he

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Speaker 2: stuffed up a few ways along the line. One is

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Speaker 2: that we had an order a fornzic order to get

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Speaker 2: samples and everything off him because we'd seized his vehicles.

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Speaker 2: On the way to the police station, he drove into

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Speaker 2: a shopping center wall, no evidence of any breaking and

319
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Speaker 2: on the front page in the front seat of the

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Speaker 2: car was page three, a big article about Allison. He

321
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Speaker 2: got a few minor injuries from that accident, but we

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Speaker 2: were able to use that to our benefit in that

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Speaker 2: we had a full mental health assessment of him done

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Speaker 2: at the hospital, which, as you're aware, it can be

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Speaker 2: quite important later on if he wants to make that

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Speaker 2: claim and he's deemed to be of sound mind. So

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Speaker 2: as that part of it, he took himself to a

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Speaker 2: local doctor a couple of days after Allison disappeared, informing

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Speaker 2: the doctor, I'd like, you know, the police want me

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Speaker 2: to have a look at these razor cuts on my face.

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Speaker 2: Unfortunately for Jered, that doctor had examined about five hundred

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Speaker 2: rasor biopsis during a training period as part of a project,

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Speaker 2: and she was clearly able to say they weren't consistent. Interestingly,

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Speaker 2: this is only a couple of days after He's left

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Speaker 2: his business card with the doctor and said if you

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Speaker 2: want to catch up for a coffee, I'd be interested.

337
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Speaker 2: During the physical examination we conducted of him, there was

338
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Speaker 2: other scratches and wounds on his chest. He said they

339
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Speaker 2: were caused by a caterpillar the day before Allison's disappearance

340
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Speaker 2: when the girls were running in a cross country. So

341
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Speaker 2: we found the area where that was where he claimed

342
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Speaker 2: this killer caterpillar had got on to him, and we

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Speaker 2: got a caterpillar expert to that area along with the

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Speaker 2: botanist to determine if there were any caterpillars in that

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Speaker 2: area and whatsot they were. Interestingly, there was no caterpillars

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Speaker 2: that would cause that sort of injury, so we were

347
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Speaker 2: able to knock that down. We found evidence on his

348
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Speaker 2: laptop of an extramarital affair with a woman there and

349
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Speaker 2: they were communicating covertly on that laptop, which led us

350
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Speaker 2: to tracking her down. She was very, very staunch with

351
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Speaker 2: Jared until we threatened her with arrest and she decided

352
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Speaker 2: to cough up a full story. Everything we put in

353
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Speaker 2: place and tried. He thought it could out smartest. But

354
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Speaker 2: his biggest mistake, again we're talking about circumstantial evidence, was

355
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Speaker 2: inquiries to the insurance company to see what Dallison's life

356
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Speaker 2: insurance policy was worth prior to her disappearing. And I

357
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Speaker 2: think that was around the from memory of the fourteenth

358
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Speaker 2: or fifteenth of April, the day that we located Alison.

359
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Speaker 2: That afternoon, a further inquiry was made by him in

360
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Speaker 2: relation to the life insurance policy. The big thing that

361
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Speaker 2: was very important in this and you know, the whole

362
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Speaker 2: world was watching it. You know that forty five that

363
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:02,560
Speaker 2: this matter was in the paper it was queens End,

364
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Speaker 2: New soth Wales, Queens and Australia and internationally interest in it.

365
00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,320
Speaker 2: We did a peer review of every section of the

366
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Speaker 2: investigation to make sure we were one hundred percent accurate.

367
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Speaker 2: Fortunately we did that, so toxicology came back but a

368
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Speaker 2: decimal point in relation to a substance antidepressant in Allison's

369
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Speaker 2: body had been put in the wrong place. We had

370
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Speaker 2: that piece of information reviewed by a toxicology expert in

371
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Speaker 2: Victoria who corrected it, which was substantial. Okay, So the

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Speaker 2: critical part of the peer review I think, you know,

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Speaker 2: really gave us a lot of confidence in moving forward with.

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Speaker 1: Charging and mark on that. And I like the idea

375
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Speaker 1: of peer reviews and investigations I've been involved in. We've

376
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Speaker 1: had that type of thing to have a look because

377
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Speaker 1: sometimes you're in it, you're looking, and sometimes you need

378
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Speaker 1: other people to have a look and cross everything you've

379
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Speaker 1: got because these type of mistakes, and you talk decimal

380
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:08,200
Speaker 1: point or whatever. If you went to trial, and I'm

381
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Speaker 1: surmising here, so we're talking hypothetically, if you went to

382
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Speaker 1: trial with a circumstantial brief of evidence and you're in

383
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Speaker 1: front of a jury, murder trial, a lot of pressure

384
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Speaker 1: on high profile and then through no fault of the

385
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:26,000
Speaker 1: police or anyone really as human error, a decimal point

386
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,359
Speaker 1: in the wrong point, the amount that the defense would

387
00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:31,520
Speaker 1: make of that, How can we trust anything that police

388
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Speaker 1: have presented here? When they're presented this, it's been shown

389
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Speaker 1: and I can just imagine the dramatics in the court,

390
00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:39,119
Speaker 1: the paper with the in the hand waving that the

391
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:43,639
Speaker 1: jury it's wrong, it's false. So the thoroughness and that

392
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Speaker 1: attention to the detail and the little things, and I'm

393
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,320
Speaker 1: fascinated by the story of it. I didn't realize a

394
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:54,040
Speaker 1: lot of the nuances with the way the investigation played out,

395
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,320
Speaker 1: but I know you speak highly of the team and

396
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 1: proud of the team, and I can understand why, because

397
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:03,480
Speaker 1: that's the type of investigation that could slip through the

398
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,200
Speaker 1: cracks if you didn't get those things like the botanists

399
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 1: with the plant sample and different things that you picked

400
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 1: up on running an investigation. Overseeing an investigation of that

401
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:21,680
Speaker 1: high profile investigation, it brings other pressures to you of

402
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 1: that normally you don't associate with the media interest, and

403
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,439
Speaker 1: once you've got the media interest, you've got the command's interest.

404
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:32,760
Speaker 1: Who whichever level that sits above you you have politicians

405
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 1: being involved. Was there a lot of that type of

406
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 1: pressure on the investigation when you're working on that.

407
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:43,400
Speaker 2: There was, in particular some inaccurate reporting from a certain

408
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 2: media person who had run a story and rang me

409
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 2: to verify the story was accurate the next day and

410
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,679
Speaker 2: said your story is not accurate and don't bother ring

411
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Speaker 2: at me again. So she's run up to the bosses

412
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,359
Speaker 2: uptown and I had a phone call saying that, you know,

413
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:03,159
Speaker 2: we've got to include her. I pushed back against in

414
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 2: saying that majority of the media were brilliant. Your media

415
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,199
Speaker 2: is your best source of getting material as you know,

416
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 2: they're your best source to get material out, and you

417
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,160
Speaker 2: just want to work in closely and together with them.

418
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 2: You know, you can't tell them everything and they know that,

419
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 2: but the information feedingback from them was good. We did

420
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 2: have an issue there where he was very closely aligned

421
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 2: with a state politician based on the ken MO the

422
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:38,479
Speaker 2: ken More Chamber of Commerce. So dealing with that, I

423
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 2: was very very fortunate that I had an assistant commissioner

424
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 2: above me who was five hundred percent behind me and

425
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 2: very very supportive. He managed a lot of the politics

426
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,399
Speaker 2: at a higher level, leaving us alone to do what

427
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,640
Speaker 2: we had to do. And I think, as I said

428
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 2: earlier in the piece, as a superintendent or inspector in

429
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 2: charge of it, you've got to make sure your team resource,

430
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 2: they've got what they want, they need, and support them.

431
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,239
Speaker 2: And I was just very, very fortunate that I had

432
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 2: a great team, and you know, everyone was singing in

433
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 2: the same direction. We briefed in the mornings, we briefed

434
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 2: in the afternoons. We come up with some different ideas

435
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 2: and different suggestions, and it worked effectively.

436
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 1: You've mentioned that a couple times during the podcast. Brief

437
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 1: in the morning's brief in the afternoons. I won't say ridiculed,

438
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 1: that's too strong, but yeah, probably the piss taken out

439
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:32,679
Speaker 1: of me how many briefings I'd have on investigations, But

440
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 1: I think they're crucial in an investigation to make sure

441
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 1: everyone knows that we're heading what direction we're heading in

442
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:45,200
Speaker 1: there's no misinformation missed. And when I've been involved in investigations,

443
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 1: whether I'm leading it or just part of the team,

444
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:52,920
Speaker 1: when there's been mistakes done, invariably it's because the communication

445
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,880
Speaker 1: hasn't been there. We haven't had the briefings, and sometimes

446
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 1: it's quite annoying. What the boss wants another briefing? Does

447
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 1: he and you bring everyone into the room. Might only

448
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 1: take twenty minutes half an hour, but it was crucial

449
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,919
Speaker 1: to make sure everyone was on the same page and

450
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 1: heading in the right direction. Would you agree with my

451
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:12,880
Speaker 1: thoughts on the importance of briefing.

452
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 2: One hundred percent? You've got to have everyone who's got

453
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,120
Speaker 2: to be well informed. They need to know exactly what's

454
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,199
Speaker 2: going on. Because they go out and interview a witness

455
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 2: at six o'clock that night and they're not aware of

456
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 2: what's happened during the day, you're off track. So it's

457
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 2: getting ahead of the game, making sure that everyone is

458
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 2: fully aware. Even the use of a rolling video screen

459
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 2: in the major instidant room updating where people can have

460
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 2: a look at it getting an idea what's going on.

461
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 2: But those briefings are a very crucial part in my view,

462
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:44,679
Speaker 2: morning and afternoon. You're seven in the morning, three in

463
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:46,640
Speaker 2: the afternoon. You know, for the sake of twenty minutes,

464
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:48,880
Speaker 2: it's twenty minutes worthwhile spending.

465
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly with you. Mark. The way this

466
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 1: played out in court a trial, he pleaded not guilty, convicted,

467
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,439
Speaker 1: he appealed, and the appeal was overturned. The convictions are stood.

468
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 1: How are Allison's children going there?

469
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 2: The three girls have turned out to be remarkable young ladies.

470
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 2: They are very very lucky to have the support of

471
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 2: Allison's parents and close family and friends. And it's a

472
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 2: real credit to everyone that's helped the girls. And it's

473
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 2: a real credit to the girls how they've moved on,

474
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:28,919
Speaker 2: very successful, very genuine down to earth girls who you know,

475
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,640
Speaker 2: from the adversity they've been through. It's absolutely remarkable how

476
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,439
Speaker 2: they've turned out, and they should be extremely proud of themselves.

477
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 2: They've actually got up at the last few lunches and

478
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 2: spoken at the lunches and it's an extreme extremely creditible

479
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 2: to Jeff and Priscilla and all the near family members,

480
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 2: Vanessa and friends that have really supported the girls to

481
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 2: get through this horrible time that they would have had.

482
00:27:55,440 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's beautiful the fact that they get on them.

483
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 1: The resilience that people that have had tragedies in their

484
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 1: life like that come through. And what a nice memory

485
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 1: of Alison. Then tribute to Alison that the children that

486
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 1: turned out out like that and yeah, it's just so difficult.

487
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: What's a wash out from the whole whole investigation.

488
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right. There were examples of it seriously affecting

489
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 2: police officers, which we dealt with and supported them on

490
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 2: the way through. I think, I don't know, I've become

491
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,959
Speaker 2: very close to the family, to the girls. In particular,

492
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 2: there was a charity set up, the Alison Baden Clay Foundation,

493
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 2: set up at the request of the parents afterwards, specifically

494
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 2: looking at domestic violence and education towards that. So Allison's

495
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 2: legacy still lives on that. We have a lunch every year.

496
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 2: This year was the biggest of four hundred people attended

497
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 2: and all the funding goes towards that. I think back

498
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 2: in the day the media, I've never struck it like that.

499
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 2: Forty five days, during the same time as the regional

500
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 2: Crime Coordin under there had three other murders in the

501
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 2: space of around Allison's and the media was solely interested

502
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 2: in Allison. You could do a media in relation to

503
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 2: the other and it was always came back to Allison

504
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 2: because it was like the girl next door type of murder.

505
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 2: Brookfield Areas is a pretty affluential area with a lot

506
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 2: of you know, affluential people in Brisbane living that area

507
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 2: and it's semi rural, and I think talking to some

508
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 2: of the media people asking what do you think the

509
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 2: interest was, and they just said because of the environment,

510
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 2: who lived out there and the girl next door type arrangement. Yeah,

511
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 2: so it was. It was very, very interesting.

512
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 1: It's a funny beast the media, and you know, I

513
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 1: now now work in it, but always I won't say fascinated,

514
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 1: that's not the right word, but it always intrigued me.

515
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: The type of investigations like that one, like the whole

516
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: country knew about it. Other investigations I've been on, no

517
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 1: one was interested, even though it's the same type of circumstances.

518
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 1: I put it down to Mark. I think it's just

519
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: what people can identify with and people might be able

520
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 1: to relate with Allison for whatever reason. A woman with

521
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 1: children and she's disappeared and the husband's a suspect, and

522
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 1: it makes people interested. But yeah, sadly, I say it

523
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 1: from my experience. You don't have to agree with me,

524
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 1: but sadly, the media attention also equates to the resources

525
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 1: you tend to get on investigations I've found as well.

526
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 1: If there is a media attention on a particular investigation,

527
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 1: you tend to get more resources than some of the

528
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 1: other ones.

529
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's correct this one here. As I said,

530
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 2: I was very fortunate to have a very supportive assistant

531
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 2: commissioner above me, and that was that was helpful coming

532
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 2: to other resources, you know. But once it got out,

533
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 2: you know what we're looking at, people came forward. I

534
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 2: remember public holidays, weekends where police would just turn up

535
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 2: saying we want to search for Allison on their days off.

536
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 2: You know, That's that's what sort of happened. But yeah,

537
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 2: getting back to your question, I think sometimes yeah, I

538
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 2: think sometimes you're right there that, you know, the media

539
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 2: attention relations to some of the matters mightn't be there,

540
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 2: which can affect the police numbers. Yeah, and I think

541
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 2: probably seeing that more and more now, Like is the

542
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 2: number of murders that we're seeing, you know, years ago

543
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 2: when you and I first joined murderers on the front

544
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 2: page of the paper. Now you know, sometimes it doesn't

545
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:42,239
Speaker 2: even make the paper, you know.

546
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. It depends. But certainly a focus has

547
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,959
Speaker 1: been on domestic related murders of recent times, and you know,

548
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: in the chats I've had with you. You got the

549
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 1: sense in the timing of it that very much picked

550
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: up after Yeah, what happened with Allison that was a

551
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 1: domestic related murder. I want to get your thoughts on it.

552
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 1: But you've got a fascinating insight into domestic violence in

553
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 1: that you did oversaw a review into thoughts of police

554
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 1: officers attending domestic violence incidents. Do you want to just

555
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 1: talk us through your role there and what you found.

556
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 2: Okay, that happened a couple of years back now where

557
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 2: the Queensland government instituted a Royal Commissioner Commissioner of Inquiry

558
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 2: into domestic violence and the response by the Queensland Police Service.

559
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 2: I wasn't in the police at that stage, but they

560
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 2: asked me if I would talk to police officers in

561
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 2: Queensland specifically looking at the culture of police towards domestic violence.

562
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 2: It was very lucky that I could talk to them that,

563
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 2: you know, wanting to interview operational frontline police that we're

564
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 2: dealing with it not only in the Southeast Corner but

565
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 2: at their first nations areas to one and two people's

566
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 2: stations to get a holistic view of the police response

567
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 2: to domestic violence. So, over the four week period, interviewed

568
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 2: fifty three police from the rank of constable right up

569
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 2: to I think as two inspectors right across the state

570
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 2: and had a series of questions that were asked. Everyone

571
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 2: was asked the same questions and got a very good

572
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 2: understanding of the effects and domestic violence and police. Now,

573
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 2: back in that time, about forty percent of calls to

574
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 2: police with domestic violence related matters.

575
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 1: Son, what years are we talking? Were talking to years.

576
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 2: Twenty twenty two, this would have been so, and this

577
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 2: is prior to course of hearings being legislated and coming

578
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 2: in a course of control. A lot of the police

579
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 2: I spoke to, they were very committed with respect to

580
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 2: domestic violence. There was a lot of frustrations about red

581
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 2: tape duplicity and look it was it was not surprising that,

582
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 2: you know, one domestic violence matter could take four hours

583
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 2: of an officer's shift to deal with. So that's four

584
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 2: hours that they're in there doing the paperwork, dealing with

585
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 2: the matter, taking them off the road. I did a

586
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 2: report and gave evidence that the DV Commission of Inquiry

587
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 2: with a lot of the recommendations that the people interviewed

588
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:20,280
Speaker 2: came out front line police. One of the big findings

589
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 2: I had was they were concerned about duplicity. For example,

590
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 2: if a person did not turn up to court for

591
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 2: a DV matter, they had to go and find them

592
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 2: and serve a notice of a German on them and

593
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 2: more papers to get them before the court. And in

594
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 2: areas the First Nation areas Thursday and.

595
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 1: When you say someone not turning up the victim of

596
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:42,800
Speaker 1: the domestics.

597
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 2: Sorry the offender, the offend not turning up so that

598
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 2: itself had issues. You look at the First Nations areas

599
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,279
Speaker 2: up on Thursday Island. There's forty to fifty islands there

600
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 2: where the offender could be, so police have got to

601
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 2: try and find them. One big thing I found, particularly

602
00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,919
Speaker 2: in one area, shifts between ten pm and six am.

603
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 2: The crews would start at ten pm at night and

604
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 2: there'd be a number of domestic violence matters queued up.

605
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 2: So you had police going to areas attending to domestic violence.

606
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 2: But then you also had supervisors who were going to

607
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,280
Speaker 2: domestic violence. One person out at three o'clock in the morning,

608
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 2: which is a huge risk to the welfare of police

609
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 2: because as you know, domestic violence matters are very volatile.

610
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 2: The one big thing was the use of support services.

611
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 2: There are a lot of support services in Queensland, but

612
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 2: some of the areas don't get the same level of support.

613
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 2: For example, one area that I spoke to a First

614
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:46,839
Speaker 2: Nation area where the police rang adv Support Network on call.

615
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 2: It was on twenty four to seven for support and

616
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 2: they just said, look, we've got nothing up there getting

617
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 2: to sleep at the police station and getting the sleep

618
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 2: in the car. Recommendations were made in relation to and

619
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 2: I briefed actually Department or Premier about some of the

620
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 2: findings from my report, and one recommendation was that they

621
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 2: relook at the funding for all these domestic violent the

622
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 2: government funding full these domestic violence organizations around the state

623
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,280
Speaker 2: and trying to align a balance fifteen of the police

624
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 2: districts to have at least one of those areas in

625
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 2: the state working twenty four to seven. And that suggestion came.

626
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:27,479
Speaker 2: It was one that I saw, but it also came

627
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 2: from some of the police that the advantages they'd see

628
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 2: of that is that they know the local geography, that'd

629
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 2: know the local police, they could work with the police will,

630
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 2: they'd know who the high risk DV offenders are and

631
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:40,720
Speaker 2: they could work together as a team.

632
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 1: So mark, in a practical sense, if that's implemented. What

633
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:49,839
Speaker 1: the recommendations are we talking here that police And I'm

634
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,319
Speaker 1: staggered by the fact that you said forty percent of

635
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 1: calls to the police station were the domestic violence related,

636
00:36:55,960 --> 00:37:02,359
Speaker 1: which is startling. Police get called the car crew get

637
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 1: called to a domestic violent situation. And the group that

638
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 1: you're talking at, the specialists, not police officers. Are you

639
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 1: suggesting they should attend that location if they're on twenty

640
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,800
Speaker 1: four to seven, attend the location with the police officers.

641
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 2: No, not necessarily. I think you've got categories. You've got

642
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 2: the high risk offenders, and you've got the first time

643
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 2: offenders and the recivitust where police are going back constantly.

644
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 2: I think you would need it. You know, resources aren't unlimited,

645
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:35,279
Speaker 2: and I think you and I think you know predominantly

646
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,879
Speaker 2: is the high risk offenders where you know there may

647
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,359
Speaker 2: be an order in place against one, they join back

648
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 2: up and it's still continuing and doesn't necessarily have to

649
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 2: be at the time, but an early referral so they

650
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 2: can go on touch base with them, whether it's the

651
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,279
Speaker 2: next day. I think what we're looking at is just

652
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 2: the ability for the Queensland Police attending a domestic at

653
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 2: the back of Charlie Ball, they can touch base for

654
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,399
Speaker 2: the DV person twenty four to seven, that knows area,

655
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 2: that knows what safe accommodation is available to help in

656
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 2: that stage. But then secondly follow up with both parties

657
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 2: involved to assist the police. Police aren't experts in human welfare.

658
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 2: They go there, they keep the peace, they do their

659
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:20,879
Speaker 2: best they can, and domestic violence matters, but there needs

660
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 2: to be some other level where both the receipt, the

661
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:29,760
Speaker 2: grieved and the respondent can go to for further education,

662
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,920
Speaker 2: can go to for conversations, and that's not the police.

663
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, like the police shouldn't be filling the role of

664
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: mediation between the two parties, And yeah, you've got to

665
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 1: sort it out. I understand what you're saying there. I

666
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 1: would imagine police and you're the person that's interviewed them

667
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,439
Speaker 1: and get a sense of it. But I imagine they'd

668
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 1: feel a lot of pressure with the domestic violent situations

669
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 1: because of the attention that's on and if they're dedicated

670
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 1: police officers, you know the potential consequence as if there's

671
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 1: a domestic situation, there's always a chance of something terrible happening.

672
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 2: One thing that I found really disturbing gary was interviewing

673
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 2: these police that the level of fearfulness amongst the police

674
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 2: attending to a domestic violence matter and not dealing with

675
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 2: it properly, fearing discipline reaction DV. If they make a

676
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,359
Speaker 2: decision at a DV, they've got to get it might

677
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 2: be a no DV, but they've got to get approval

678
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 2: from their supervised as a senior sergeant, that it's a

679
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 2: no DV. And then you've got a senior sergeant or

680
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 2: sergeant that says, no, I'll just do it as a

681
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 2: DV to protect your neck because we don't want to discipline.

682
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 2: So it's had that adverse effect as well. And the

683
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 2: big thing that I never really saw evidence of police

684
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 2: showing away from DV because they knew there's such an

685
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 2: emphasis on it that it had to be done properly.

686
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:52,360
Speaker 2: This is prior to course of control, so that forty

687
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 2: percent I gave before course of control legislation comes in.

688
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 2: And there was some criticism in the inquiry of a

689
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:03,280
Speaker 2: number of fatal DV matters whether the police hadn't responded

690
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 2: appropriately properly. My concern is with coercive control, their levels

691
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 2: that require investigation to establish that, yes there has been

692
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,319
Speaker 2: withholding of money, withholding a bank, accouncil and all this that

693
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 2: can't be done there and then so how are police

694
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 2: going to manage that level of scrutiny.

695
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 1: Well, you made an interesting point there, Mark, and I've

696
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 1: been talking about coercive control affair bit and on the

697
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 1: back of and you know it from Queensland, the Hannah

698
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 1: Clark situation and spoken to her parents and they were

699
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 1: very much pushing on coercive control, which we're brought in

700
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 1: New South Wales. I agree with it. I think it's

701
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,840
Speaker 1: something it's a tool that police need, but I hadn't

702
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 1: even in all honesty, considered the investigation that would require

703
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 1: to prove that and whether general duties police have got

704
00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 1: the time to do those type of investigations. To me,

705
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 1: looking at it from the outside, that's a simple solution.

706
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:08,280
Speaker 1: You'd have experts in that era, specialist police that aka

707
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:13,280
Speaker 1: coercive control and a domestic unit within the local area

708
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 1: command or squad that follow up that type of information.

709
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 1: Because there is a lot that you've got to do.

710
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 2: There certainly is, and you know, as I said, you know,

711
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 2: you've got police going from DV to DV. They know

712
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 2: that their domestic violence matters are banking up, and they

713
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 2: know they want to get there to make sure that

714
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 2: the people involved are safe. That's when shortcuts happen, you know,

715
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:38,839
Speaker 2: and that's that's unfortunate part of life. That's that's when

716
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 2: things happen. You know, there's a number of scenarios that

717
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 2: police gave me issues that they hadn't concerned about, you know,

718
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 2: what was occurring. But look, my whole thing is police

719
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 2: aren't the answer to everything. Domestic violence mental health is

720
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 2: a whole community problem. A lot of domestic violence agencies

721
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 2: are trying to start edgecation the Allison Baden Clay want

722
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 2: are educating young kids at school. That's fine, but you

723
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 2: look at the generational DV and one police officer I interviewed,

724
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 2: she remembers going to domestic violence matters sixteen years ago

725
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:15,399
Speaker 2: when mum and dad were fighting and the young kids

726
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:19,280
Speaker 2: were there. Sixteen years later, she's going to domestic violence

727
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:22,320
Speaker 2: with those young kids. So the perpetrators of the domestic violence.

728
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:26,879
Speaker 2: So how do we break down that generational DV. How

729
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:30,240
Speaker 2: can the community work together to deal with this Because

730
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 2: you know, police have families in that as well, and

731
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 2: I think the effect on seeing it some of these

732
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 2: DV matters can affect police in their own lives. I

733
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 2: just think there has to be a different approach, and

734
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 2: what that is, I'm not one hundred percent certain, but

735
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 2: it's got to involve a whole community response.

736
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:50,399
Speaker 1: I think if you hang on to that, the whole

737
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:54,759
Speaker 1: community response policing, you can't fix it. If they bring

738
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 1: in tougher legislation, is z that gan to solve the problem?

739
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 1: Possibly not that, Yeah, you really need to approach it,

740
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 1: and yeah you need to circumvent it, prevent it. Prevention

741
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 1: is obviously better, and then bring in other services to

742
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 1: to help help people navigate through that. But it's a

743
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:19,320
Speaker 1: You speak to any police officer and I can attest

744
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 1: to that the amount of police I've had on the

745
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 1: podcast and just in my general conversations with police, I

746
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 1: know mentioned domestics and we all react the same way.

747
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the pain of attending domestics. It's virtually what

748
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 1: you cut your teeth on, and it's something that the

749
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 1: potential ramifications are extreme. So it is something and in

750
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 1: this day and age, even more so than when I

751
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,839
Speaker 1: was attending domestics, so I can imagine that it does

752
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:47,239
Speaker 1: have a negative impact on the police involved in it.

753
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 2: It does, And look, you know, I hope I haven't

754
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 2: sort of made light of course of control because I

755
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 2: look back at Allison's case and there was extreme examples

756
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 2: of course of control, which you know, which has come

757
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 2: to right now, and it's a critical thing that we

758
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 2: have to deal with, and you know, early intervention on

759
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:10,440
Speaker 2: course of control may prevent more serious type arrangements.

760
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 1: I don't think you've made light on it. Market like

761
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:16,839
Speaker 1: a lot of the stuff you've said today on the

762
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 1: show is a good common sense approach. I'm saying, if anything,

763
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 1: I was not naive, but hadn't considered how much work

764
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 1: would go into coercive control. Having said that, I support

765
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 1: it one hundred percent because I think that the trouble

766
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:35,839
Speaker 1: is police and you would have been there at some

767
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 1: stage in your career. We've all been in there. We

768
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:41,239
Speaker 1: walk into a house, no one's been assaulted, there's been

769
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:43,479
Speaker 1: an argument, you can feel the tension, you can feel

770
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 1: the fear there, but there was nothing we can do.

771
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 1: But with coercive control, potentially we could get to the

772
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 1: bottom of that. If someone's manipulating and controlling someone that

773
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 1: might might circumvent it. But you make a valid point.

774
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:58,360
Speaker 1: And you know, when the politicians come in with the

775
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 1: legislation we've changed theis we've got to be able to

776
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:05,719
Speaker 1: resource and educate police on how to use that legislation

777
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:06,840
Speaker 1: to its fullest effect.

778
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:09,479
Speaker 2: Agree, And I think there has to be a multi

779
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 2: disciplinary approach, not just a police approach. Look, I can

780
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 2: remember police don't like going to domestics, you know, probably

781
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 2: one of the biggest killers of police across history of policing.

782
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:21,799
Speaker 2: I can remember as a twenty year old going to

783
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 2: a domestic violence matter where a woman rang up and said,

784
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 2: my husband's bashing me. We go down there, big fella.

785
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 2: We got one handcuff on a struggle. We've all ended

786
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 2: up over the lounge chair. The next minute the wife's

787
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 2: they're kicking us. Leave him malone, leave him alone. Domestics

788
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 2: are very, very volatile, and they've got to be handled

789
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:43,280
Speaker 2: professionally and carefully. And I think this day and age,

790
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 2: you know, as we've boke before with the different drugs

791
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:48,360
Speaker 2: and mental health, which wasn't as much back as the

792
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:51,839
Speaker 2: period I'm talking about, it's just an added risk and

793
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,240
Speaker 2: impose on police attending domestic violence.

794
00:45:56,200 --> 00:46:00,160
Speaker 1: Well, look, I'm glad we're talking about it in the

795
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:04,280
Speaker 1: the horrendous. Yeah, the consequences at the extreme where people

796
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 1: have been murdered is just out of control. So at

797
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 1: least the focus is on it. We've got to find

798
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: a solution we can't put up with if the problems there, like, well,

799
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 1: how are we going to change it? I like the

800
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 1: way you approach things, Mark, Yeah, looking at solutions a

801
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 1: little bit differently, and it's not I get the sense

802
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 1: that you appreciate things are all not black and white.

803
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you with the policing, thirty eight

804
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 1: years in the police in then, you're still very much

805
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 1: aware of what's going on now, with the type of

806
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 1: work you're doing and the interest that you have in it,

807
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:38,920
Speaker 1: is it a career you would recommend to people.

808
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:43,800
Speaker 2: It's the I thoroughly enjoyed it. Whilst things have changed

809
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 2: a lot now. I think the comaraderie and the police,

810
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:50,319
Speaker 2: the diversity in what you will be attending. And I

811
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 2: only spoke to a young fellow last night that's coming

812
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 2: down for interviews on the weekend, and I think the

813
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:57,799
Speaker 2: same thing you said, mate, You're going to love it.

814
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:00,760
Speaker 2: I said, you get sick of one area, move to another.

815
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:03,280
Speaker 2: You're going to see the best and the worst in people.

816
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 2: You're going to upscull yourself. But more than that, you're

817
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 2: going to be working with the team and a group

818
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 2: of people that will have your back. And I think

819
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 2: that's one big thing that I liked about the police.

820
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,920
Speaker 2: I enjoyed going to work. I enjoyed the challenges. I

821
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 2: enjoyed not knowing what I was going to be doing

822
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:24,279
Speaker 2: from day to day. There's no monotony in it. And

823
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 2: I enjoyed people I work with and some of the

824
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:30,359
Speaker 2: people I dealt with. One hundred percent, I think it's

825
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 2: a great career.

826
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 1: I ask that question to all police I get on there,

827
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 1: and I think we've probably got about the ninety nine

828
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:42,880
Speaker 1: percent success rate on saying they recommend it, because I

829
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 1: thoroughly do. And it saddens me that police forces across

830
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:52,880
Speaker 1: the country struggling to get resources at the moment. And yeah,

831
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 1: if people just if they want an interesting, challenging, rewarding life,

832
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:00,399
Speaker 1: it's there for you in policing. Yeah, I've just listen.

833
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 1: I see the smile that comes on your face talking

834
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:07,360
Speaker 1: about aspects of your police career and I see it

835
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:10,720
Speaker 1: time and time again, so hopefully the right right people

836
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:12,840
Speaker 1: wanted to get involved.

837
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 2: It's like the suggestion come up earlier Gary about you know,

838
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:18,360
Speaker 2: do we have a national police service, you know, the

839
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 2: ability to transfer and things like that need to be

840
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:24,960
Speaker 2: brought to the table for the right people to consider

841
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:29,719
Speaker 2: and suggestions like that which you know could increase recruitment

842
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 2: and retention. You know. I just think that things like

843
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:35,279
Speaker 2: that need to be brought to the table and needs

844
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:38,439
Speaker 2: to be a national discussion on how we recruit, how

845
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:39,760
Speaker 2: we retain police officers.

846
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, Mark, I've really enjoyed your chat. Good luck

847
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 1: with your career career at the moment. Just sorry before

848
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:53,400
Speaker 1: we go, what are you doing now, because it seems

849
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:54,920
Speaker 1: like a kid in the candy store to me.

850
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:58,480
Speaker 2: Look, I'm doing a little bit of work at Queensland

851
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 2: Cricket at the moment, integrity framework there, which is enjoyable.

852
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:04,279
Speaker 2: I love my cricket and just a little bit of

853
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:08,400
Speaker 2: consultancy work out and about and so it keeps the

854
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 2: mind active and keeps me out of the wife's hair.

855
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:11,400
Speaker 2: So that's good.

856
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 1: Well, you look like you're enjoying yourself and very relaxed

857
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 1: and in the prep for the podcast and reading the

858
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 1: type of stuff and the stances you were taking. Again

859
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 1: a common sense approach. So I want to thank you

860
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 1: for coming on the Eye Catch Killers podcast. Thank you

861
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 1: for the service to the people of Queensland and the

862
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 1: broader areas in which you've worked. And yeah, keep on

863
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 1: doing what you're doing.

864
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 2: Great, Thanks very much, Garian, thanks for having me on.

865
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:43,760
Speaker 2: I think it's what you're doing is fantastic bringing back

866
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 2: what really happens behind the scenes to the grassroots and

867
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:49,759
Speaker 2: I think it's really important for people to know that.

868
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 2: Thank you.

869
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:56,879
Speaker 1: Thanks Matt. I never got to work with Mark, but

870
00:49:57,200 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 1: I know it'd be the type of copper I would

871
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 1: like working. He has a common sense approach and he

872
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 1: speaks his mind and I've got to say he raised

873
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:09,359
Speaker 1: in terms of reducing crime, in particularly youth crime, some

874
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 1: very very interesting thoughts on how it could be approached.

875
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 1: Mark is well placed with thirty eight years experience in

876
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:21,399
Speaker 1: the cops and he has some good ideas