1 00:00:05,820 --> 00:00:08,160 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business Interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:12,059 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. The Business Council of Australia is a hugely influential 3 00:00:12,059 --> 00:00:16,889 Sean Aylmer: organization, representing many of Australia's biggest companies, banks, telcos, miners, 4 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,880 Sean Aylmer: tech, energy, retail, much more. It's a group that advocates 5 00:00:20,910 --> 00:00:23,700 Sean Aylmer: for business pushing for change with the government of the 6 00:00:23,700 --> 00:00:27,000 Sean Aylmer: day, and often coming into conflict with others such as 7 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,820 Sean Aylmer: the union movement, but at its core is productivity and 8 00:00:29,820 --> 00:00:32,068 Sean Aylmer: growth, making it easier to run and grow a business 9 00:00:32,070 --> 00:00:35,129 Sean Aylmer: in Australia. Today I wanted to put it to the BCA, 10 00:00:35,729 --> 00:00:38,460 Sean Aylmer: the top three things that need to happen to improve 11 00:00:38,460 --> 00:00:42,060 Sean Aylmer: efficiency and allow Australian companies to boom. Bran Black is 12 00:00:42,060 --> 00:00:45,150 Sean Aylmer: the chief executive of the Business Council of Australia. Bran, 13 00:00:45,150 --> 00:00:46,168 Sean Aylmer: welcome to Fear and Greed. 14 00:00:46,830 --> 00:00:48,089 Bran Black: Thanks so much for having me on the show. 15 00:00:49,049 --> 00:00:51,269 Sean Aylmer: You've only been in the role since September, just as 16 00:00:51,269 --> 00:00:54,119 Sean Aylmer: the government came in and made some pretty significant changes 17 00:00:54,119 --> 00:00:56,520 Sean Aylmer: to industrial relations, for example, I think probably late last 18 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:00,060 Sean Aylmer: year. I want to get into the changes in IR 19 00:01:00,060 --> 00:01:02,580 Sean Aylmer: shortly, but before that, are you enjoying the job? 20 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,330 Bran Black: Yeah, very much so. It's enormously challenging, but in a 21 00:01:06,330 --> 00:01:09,959 Bran Black: very good way, and I'm enormously privileged to have the 22 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:14,580 Bran Black: opportunity to work with so many diverse companies right across the length 23 00:01:14,580 --> 00:01:17,520 Bran Black: and breadth of the Australian economy and ultimately push for 24 00:01:17,940 --> 00:01:20,010 Bran Black: a policy that we see as being critical to the 25 00:01:20,010 --> 00:01:21,179 Bran Black: future prosperity of the country. 26 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,690 Sean Aylmer: Okay, so let's talk about industrial relations. Plenty of changes 27 00:01:24,690 --> 00:01:27,300 Sean Aylmer: in the last half of last year, more to come. 28 00:01:27,839 --> 00:01:31,020 Sean Aylmer: Where does the BCA stand on some of those changes, 29 00:01:31,350 --> 00:01:34,920 Sean Aylmer: which the government said were necessary to help lower paid 30 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:38,940 Sean Aylmer: workers in particular and contractors, that type of thing? Where 31 00:01:38,940 --> 00:01:40,050 Sean Aylmer: do you stand on those? 32 00:01:40,980 --> 00:01:43,919 Bran Black: Well, we were pretty concerned with the changes. Of course, 33 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,350 Bran Black: we want to see wages increase, of course we want 34 00:01:46,350 --> 00:01:50,130 Bran Black: to see real wage increases rather than, I think what we 35 00:01:50,130 --> 00:01:53,700 Bran Black: have seen, which is some scope for inflationary wage increases 36 00:01:53,700 --> 00:01:56,040 Bran Black: to the extent that they haven't been backed by productivity 37 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:59,610 Bran Black: gains, but more broadly on industrial relations. There have been 38 00:01:59,610 --> 00:02:03,509 Bran Black: lots of changes that cover really, the full remit of 39 00:02:03,509 --> 00:02:07,890 Bran Black: employment relationships within our economy, and in many instances, what 40 00:02:07,890 --> 00:02:09,780 Bran Black: they do is add a lot of time, cost and 41 00:02:09,780 --> 00:02:13,020 Bran Black: complexity to the way in which business is done. One of the things 42 00:02:13,020 --> 00:02:15,960 Bran Black: that we're deeply concerned about is that we're still yet to 43 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:18,330 Bran Black: see what these changes look like in terms of how 44 00:02:18,330 --> 00:02:22,079 Bran Black: they track through across the economy as businesses are still 45 00:02:22,079 --> 00:02:25,290 Bran Black: very much in the process of going through what compliance 46 00:02:25,290 --> 00:02:28,200 Bran Black: looks like and getting themselves in line with the new 47 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:32,849 Bran Black: requirements. And indeed, there are some processes that are very much 48 00:02:32,849 --> 00:02:34,649 Bran Black: yet to play out and we're concerned about what that 49 00:02:34,650 --> 00:02:37,889 Bran Black: might look like. An example is intractable bargaining. It's one 50 00:02:37,889 --> 00:02:40,740 Bran Black: of those things that not too many people give too 51 00:02:40,740 --> 00:02:43,320 Bran Black: much thought to at the moment, but it's very important. 52 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,080 Bran Black: What it means is that in situations where there's a 53 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:50,730 Bran Black: dispute between an employer and a union, at the moment, or 54 00:02:50,730 --> 00:02:54,149 Bran Black: at least prior to these most recent reforms, where that 55 00:02:54,150 --> 00:02:57,269 Bran Black: dispute couldn't be resolved, either side could approach the Fair 56 00:02:57,270 --> 00:03:00,180 Bran Black: Work Commission and the Fair Work Commission could make a 57 00:03:00,270 --> 00:03:05,190 Bran Black: determination, and that determination had to be better off overall 58 00:03:05,220 --> 00:03:10,020 Bran Black: for the employees than the existing award. Now, that was 59 00:03:10,020 --> 00:03:11,490 Bran Black: a good way of doing it because it meant that 60 00:03:11,490 --> 00:03:14,069 Bran Black: there was scope for give and take. What the new 61 00:03:14,070 --> 00:03:17,369 Bran Black: changes have done is say that if you go to 62 00:03:17,369 --> 00:03:21,150 Bran Black: the Fair Work Commission, then the outcome, the Fair Work 63 00:03:21,150 --> 00:03:24,570 Bran Black: Commission's determination, has to be better off overall than the 64 00:03:24,630 --> 00:03:27,990 Bran Black: enterprise agreement. Now remember that the enterprise agreement sits above 65 00:03:27,990 --> 00:03:30,809 Bran Black: the award, and it's not just better off overall than 66 00:03:30,809 --> 00:03:34,079 Bran Black: the enterprise agreement. It's every single term, on a term 67 00:03:34,079 --> 00:03:36,239 Bran Black: by term basis, has to be better off. So there 68 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:40,740 Bran Black: is much less scope for negotiation. There is much less 69 00:03:40,740 --> 00:03:44,429 Bran Black: scope, or indeed incentive, for unions to come to the 70 00:03:44,429 --> 00:03:48,689 Bran Black: table and work hand in hand with employers. And what 71 00:03:48,690 --> 00:03:52,708 Bran Black: we're saying is that overall, in the industrial relations system, 72 00:03:52,740 --> 00:03:55,890 Bran Black: what we'd like to see is more scope for that 73 00:03:55,890 --> 00:04:00,300 Bran Black: flexible type of discussion at the enterprise level. So at 74 00:04:00,300 --> 00:04:03,270 Bran Black: the enterprise level, you've got the scope to have discussions 75 00:04:03,270 --> 00:04:05,970 Bran Black: about terms and conditions and make trade- offs as needed. 76 00:04:06,300 --> 00:04:09,899 Bran Black: That's what ultimately drives the most productive workplaces, and those are the 77 00:04:09,900 --> 00:04:11,280 Bran Black: types of arrangements we'd like to see. 78 00:04:11,910 --> 00:04:14,160 Sean Aylmer: Is the government listening to some of those concerns? 79 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:18,238 Bran Black: Well, obviously we haven't been pleased with the position with 80 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:22,350 Bran Black: respect to industrial relations. There are other areas where we've 81 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:26,729 Bran Black: provided advocacy and we think that the government's been very 82 00:04:26,730 --> 00:04:30,690 Bran Black: receptive to our advocacy. Skilled migration is a key example 83 00:04:30,690 --> 00:04:32,880 Bran Black: in that regard. We think the changes that went through, 84 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,990 Bran Black: that were announced late last year, are really quite important, 85 00:04:37,230 --> 00:04:40,469 Bran Black: and they will help Australia bring in the skills mixes 86 00:04:40,469 --> 00:04:43,589 Bran Black: that we need in circumstances where we're just not generating 87 00:04:43,860 --> 00:04:47,250 Bran Black: enough of those skills here at home. Equally, I think 88 00:04:47,250 --> 00:04:50,910 Bran Black: the approach that the government's taken on cybersecurity and on 89 00:04:50,910 --> 00:04:56,039 Bran Black: artificial intelligence has been important and sensible. And we're also 90 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,170 Bran Black: seeing, I think, the start of what looks like a 91 00:04:58,170 --> 00:05:01,860 Bran Black: really good process with the Accord with Jason Clare and 92 00:05:01,860 --> 00:05:05,039 Bran Black: the report that's been prepared by Professor Mary O'Kane. That 93 00:05:05,039 --> 00:05:07,500 Bran Black: looks as though it's going to set our higher education 94 00:05:07,500 --> 00:05:11,940 Bran Black: system up and indeed that relationship between higher education and 95 00:05:12,089 --> 00:05:15,868 Bran Black: our VET system up very nicely to account for the 96 00:05:15,870 --> 00:05:18,420 Bran Black: skills needs that Australia has, moving into the future. 97 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:20,819 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me Bran. We'll be back in a minute. 98 00:05:28,349 --> 00:05:35,759 Sean Aylmer: I'm speaking to BCA Chief Executive, Bran Black. Do you think that this Labor government, compared to 99 00:05:35,759 --> 00:05:39,000 Sean Aylmer: previous governments, it becomes political but I don't want to 100 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,960 Sean Aylmer: make it too political, has the interest of business and 101 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:45,930 Sean Aylmer: your membership, that they understand it? I appreciate it's a 102 00:05:45,930 --> 00:05:49,529 Sean Aylmer: Labor government, and so perhaps they have a bias towards 103 00:05:49,529 --> 00:05:52,380 Sean Aylmer: employees, but do they understand the needs of business? 104 00:05:53,010 --> 00:05:56,130 Bran Black: I think that both the government and the opposition understand the 105 00:05:56,130 --> 00:06:00,000 Bran Black: advocacy that we're putting forward. Ultimately, we've got to make 106 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,240 Bran Black: sure that governments act on that advocacy, and that's the 107 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:06,839 Bran Black: most important thing. What we see and what comes through 108 00:06:07,140 --> 00:06:10,170 Bran Black: to me so frequently from the CEOs that I talk 109 00:06:10,170 --> 00:06:13,799 Bran Black: to, is that whilst we're so very lucky in Australia 110 00:06:13,799 --> 00:06:17,129 Bran Black: and we've got so many natural advantages, we tend to 111 00:06:17,129 --> 00:06:22,529 Bran Black: be a little complacent. And that's unfortunate because the result 112 00:06:22,529 --> 00:06:25,380 Bran Black: of that is we're becoming less competitive internationally. Indeed, that's 113 00:06:25,380 --> 00:06:27,988 Bran Black: reflected in some of the metrics that you see. For 114 00:06:27,990 --> 00:06:31,620 Bran Black: example, on that very note of competitiveness, we've dropped from 115 00:06:31,678 --> 00:06:35,219 Bran Black: fourth in the world in 2004, to 19th in the 116 00:06:35,219 --> 00:06:38,250 Bran Black: world today. So we really need to focus on what 117 00:06:38,250 --> 00:06:41,250 Bran Black: we can do to enhance our competitiveness, and that's what 118 00:06:41,250 --> 00:06:44,010 Bran Black: our advocacy goes towards with both the government, the opposition, 119 00:06:44,010 --> 00:06:46,919 Bran Black: the crossbench, and indeed all decision makers right across the country. 120 00:06:47,940 --> 00:06:50,880 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So if you had a wish list for what 121 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:54,209 Sean Aylmer: you would like the government to do to improve competitiveness, 122 00:06:54,209 --> 00:06:58,050 Sean Aylmer: to improve efficiency, to improve productivity, what is it? I'm 123 00:06:58,050 --> 00:07:01,140 Sean Aylmer: sure you've already talked about cyber and AI migration, higher 124 00:07:01,140 --> 00:07:04,139 Sean Aylmer: education, but what are the really key things that you 125 00:07:04,139 --> 00:07:06,988 Sean Aylmer: would like to see the government push to help us 126 00:07:07,170 --> 00:07:10,350 Sean Aylmer: become a more efficient, more competitive country? 127 00:07:11,430 --> 00:07:14,100 Bran Black: That's a really good question. What we would love to see 128 00:07:14,370 --> 00:07:17,520 Bran Black: in the long term, we think it's really important that 129 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:21,659 Bran Black: we stop making decisions that set us backwards. Mike Henry 130 00:07:21,660 --> 00:07:24,570 Bran Black: spoke about this within the last 12 months, and he said, " 131 00:07:24,900 --> 00:07:28,289 Bran Black: First rule, do no harm." We would say that's precisely 132 00:07:28,289 --> 00:07:29,850 Bran Black: the first thing that we need to think about in 133 00:07:29,850 --> 00:07:33,300 Bran Black: terms of all of our regulatory decision- making processes, and 134 00:07:33,300 --> 00:07:36,000 Bran Black: that's particularly the case, as I say, with respect to 135 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:40,980 Bran Black: industrial relations. Next, we'd like to see a real focus on reducing 136 00:07:41,099 --> 00:07:44,519 Bran Black: the regulatory burden that is faced by businesses right across 137 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:48,750 Bran Black: the country. And third, we think it's absolutely fundamentally critical 138 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:51,150 Bran Black: that we do everything that we can to enhance jobs 139 00:07:51,150 --> 00:07:54,810 Bran Black: and skills right across that spectrum from before you start 140 00:07:54,810 --> 00:07:58,320 Bran Black: school through to what happens when you're in university and 141 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:01,469 Bran Black: what your job prospects look like after that, and then 142 00:08:01,469 --> 00:08:04,619 Bran Black: into the re- skilling phase beyond, because we know that 143 00:08:04,619 --> 00:08:07,500 Bran Black: so many jobs of the future aren't jobs that exist 144 00:08:07,500 --> 00:08:09,540 Bran Black: now, and we really need to think forward in that regard. 145 00:08:10,110 --> 00:08:13,530 Bran Black: But those are the broad concepts. What we've done in 146 00:08:13,530 --> 00:08:16,679 Bran Black: the last little while is make a submission to the 147 00:08:16,679 --> 00:08:20,549 Bran Black: government in terms of its pre- budget consideration, and there 148 00:08:20,549 --> 00:08:22,379 Bran Black: are three things that I'd really call out if I 149 00:08:22,379 --> 00:08:25,770 Bran Black: can, that we regard as quite important. The first is 150 00:08:25,770 --> 00:08:31,110 Bran Black: we'd love to see a reform fund, which drives productivity 151 00:08:31,350 --> 00:08:34,860 Bran Black: and encourages productivity across the states and territories. We saw 152 00:08:35,340 --> 00:08:39,630 Bran Black: back in the 1990s that similar types of funds with 153 00:08:39,929 --> 00:08:44,160 Bran Black: a $ 5 billion investment by the federal government produced about $ 154 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:48,630 Bran Black: 60 billion a year in GDP benefit to the country. 155 00:08:48,660 --> 00:08:50,429 Bran Black: What we'd like to see is a reform fund that 156 00:08:50,429 --> 00:08:55,079 Bran Black: incentivizes states to undertake productivity enhancing reforms like, for example, 157 00:08:55,349 --> 00:09:00,869 Bran Black: synchronizing and harmonizing payroll tax settings, like incrementally but definitely 158 00:09:00,869 --> 00:09:05,100 Bran Black: moving from stamp duty towards land tax, and of course, just 159 00:09:05,130 --> 00:09:08,520 Bran Black: cutting regulation across the board. We'd love to see an 160 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,670 Bran Black: investment review undertaken by the government in line with what 161 00:09:11,670 --> 00:09:14,189 Bran Black: the UK's done with their Harrington review. That was a 162 00:09:14,190 --> 00:09:17,338 Bran Black: whole of system review that considered all of the different 163 00:09:17,340 --> 00:09:20,850 Bran Black: settings that go to driving investment into the United Kingdom. 164 00:09:20,850 --> 00:09:23,100 Bran Black: We'd love to see the same approach taken in Australia. 165 00:09:23,670 --> 00:09:27,420 Bran Black: And of course, we'd also think it's absolutely critical that 166 00:09:27,450 --> 00:09:31,619 Bran Black: we approach the energy transition with a very strategic and 167 00:09:31,620 --> 00:09:34,499 Bran Black: planned approach. So we're in the process now, as you'd 168 00:09:34,500 --> 00:09:38,640 Bran Black: appreciate, of setting a target for 2035. What we'd love 169 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:40,858 Bran Black: to see is a plan that sits behind that so 170 00:09:40,860 --> 00:09:43,620 Bran Black: that we can give businesses confidence that they know what 171 00:09:43,830 --> 00:09:46,410 Bran Black: the plan looks like and what their investments can do 172 00:09:46,410 --> 00:09:47,400 Bran Black: to contribute towards that. 173 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:50,010 Sean Aylmer: Bran, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 174 00:09:50,429 --> 00:09:51,030 Bran Black: It's my pleasure. 175 00:09:51,450 --> 00:09:54,179 Sean Aylmer: That was Bran Black, Chief Executive of the Business Council 176 00:09:54,179 --> 00:09:56,670 Sean Aylmer: of Australia. This is the Fear and Greed Business Interview. 177 00:09:56,670 --> 00:09:58,708 Sean Aylmer: Join us every morning for the full episode of Fear 178 00:09:58,710 --> 00:10:01,230 Sean Aylmer: and Greed, daily business news for people who make their 179 00:10:01,230 --> 00:10:03,839 Sean Aylmer: own decisions. I'm Shaun Aylmer. Enjoy your day.