1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: In the wide flat planes of Western Melbourne. Sits Dame 2 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 1: Phyllis Frost Center, Victoria's only female maximum security prison. It's 3 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: here that Aaron Patterson was driven back to after her 4 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 1: guilty verdict to discuss what her life will be like 5 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: behind bars. I'm joined by veteran crime reporter Anthony Dowsley. 6 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: I'm Brook Greebert Craig, and this is the Mushroom Cook. Hi, 7 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: dows How are you going well? 8 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 2: In some ways, it's a relief that this has come 9 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 2: to a conclusion. We know the verdict, as you've said 10 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 2: on a previous podcast, and we can talk about everything 11 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 2: that's happened since Monday, when Aaron Patterson was found guilty 12 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:47,880 Speaker 2: of three murders and an attempted murder. 13 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,239 Speaker 1: And right now we're in herold Son's podcast studio and 14 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: we're looking at our front page on Tuesday. It's splashed 15 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: with the headline Cooked and a photo of Aaron looking 16 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: quite shocked. 17 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 2: She's also looking a little bit struck by the idea 18 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 2: of a flash in her face. It's an interesting story 19 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 2: behind this photo that maybe probably the photo that defines 20 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 2: this trial and maybe this case. In some ways. It 21 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:22,759 Speaker 2: was taken about nine weeks ago. This photo was taken 22 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 2: by Martin keep who's an AFP photographer, and he set 23 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 2: up a special contraption on his camera to get the 24 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 2: flash to be able to get through the prison van. 25 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 2: He spent a long time planning for the photo and 26 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 2: it's been used by all media outlets. There was some 27 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 2: conjecture around the ABC and whether they would use it 28 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 2: or not, but it really is a defining moment of 29 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 2: Aaron Patterson as she faced the trial of her life. 30 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: And as we're talking about it, I'm sure our listeners 31 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: can definitely picture the photo that we are talking about about. 32 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: In the Herald Son's paper, we showed multiple stills of her. 33 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: As I said earlier, she's looking quite shocked. You can 34 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: see her moving her hand up to her face, closing 35 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: her eyes quite tightly, and you can definitely tell that 36 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: she wasn't expecting this photo to be taken in that moment. 37 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 1: For weeks, photographers were trying to get the shot of Erin. 38 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 1: They had two chances each week. 39 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, the chances are being taken from Dame Phyllis Frost 40 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:32,639 Speaker 2: Center on her way to the more Well Courts, and 41 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 2: then at the end of the week when she was 42 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 2: going back to Dame Frost Center. She'd been in custody 43 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 2: since November twenty twenty three, and she was being brought 44 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 2: to court and away from court every weekend every week, 45 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 2: so that was the chances they had. They didn't have many. 46 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: Erin caught on after this particular photo was taken, and 47 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: she ended up lying on the ground of the prism 48 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: van to shield her face from the cameras. So she 49 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: got quite smart in the taps that she would do 50 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: to avoid the cameras. 51 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 2: Really yeah, and given Aran's personality, I think, you know, 52 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 2: kind of the public notoriety surrounding her. We don't know 53 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 2: how she feels about it. But even when she was 54 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 2: in court and a sketch artists would try and you know, 55 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 2: take a sketch of her while she sat in the dock, 56 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 2: she would shield away from that. So it was clear 57 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 2: that she did not want to be photographed or have 58 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 2: her image taken anymore. It's interesting as this was taken 59 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 2: quite a number of weeks ago, it was most likely 60 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 2: inside this prison van that she was taken back on 61 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 2: Monday to Dame Phyllis Frost Center where she is going 62 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 2: to be sentenced to stay, probably for the rest of 63 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 2: her life. We don't know when the sentencing is going 64 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 2: to happen. There's a plea hearing that will happen before it, 65 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 2: that's in the weeks and maybe months ahead. But she 66 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 2: now has to come to that realization that she convicted 67 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 2: murderer and her life will never be the same. 68 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: So Dame Phyllis Frost is a woman's maximum security prison 69 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: that's located in Melbourne's West. Some of the most notorious 70 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: female prisoners are in there, for example, like Malkalaifer who 71 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: else do ows? 72 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 2: Robin Lindholm, who's known as the Black Widow. She's convicted 73 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 2: of killing two men, both of them being partners of hers, 74 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 2: and she's suspected of killing a woman as well. 75 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:30,599 Speaker 1: And you've also mentioned to me about Judy Moran. 76 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:35,159 Speaker 2: Judy Moran a gangland figure, the mother of Jason and 77 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 2: Mark Moran, and she's been in there for some time 78 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 2: over the murder of her in law, Des Moran. But 79 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 2: Dame Phyllis Frost Center has, according to reports, maximum of 80 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 2: almost five hundred and forty inmates. There's probably over five 81 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 2: hundred in there at any one time, and it's the 82 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 2: only maximum security prison for women, and even though I 83 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:02,719 Speaker 2: don't know if it's a vol tile as the men's prisons, 84 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 2: there is volatility in there, and there's certainly a pecking 85 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 2: order of who runs certain divisions within the prison. Now 86 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 2: there's no register of this, but I think that anyone 87 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 2: who thinks that Arin Patterson is some sort of prison 88 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 2: boss inmate inside Dame Philos Frost Center would be sorely mistaken. 89 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 1: So what do you think then her life would be 90 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: like in there? 91 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 2: Being high profile as a prison is not necessarily a 92 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 2: good thing. It doesn't get you any benefits. In fact, 93 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:36,839 Speaker 2: it only makes you a target most of the time. 94 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 2: So I think that's one of the reasons that she 95 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 2: would be separated from other prisoners just at this moment, 96 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 2: and that might go on for some time. 97 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: And they have access to the papers in prison. 98 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 2: Yep, they can read papers. She would be someone on 99 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 2: the the tip of the tongue. She's in the mind 100 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,160 Speaker 2: of people. Having your name in the paper isn't necessarily 101 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 2: a good thing for a prisoner. Most prisoners just want 102 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 2: to lay and do their time. If you're smart and 103 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:07,359 Speaker 2: you can ascend through the ranks through brutality, or you 104 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 2: can do it through your personality. In Aaron's case. I 105 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:13,160 Speaker 2: think that if she is to be put in contact 106 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 2: with other prisoners, she's going to have to use her 107 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:17,679 Speaker 2: smart She's an intelligent person. We've heard that in court 108 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 2: and that's her main power I think in there. 109 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:23,600 Speaker 1: So Dows, you and I have reported on a complaint 110 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:25,679 Speaker 1: that Aaron tampered with prison food. 111 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a complaint that came about last year. 112 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 2: We don't know if that went anywhere. It seems like 113 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 2: it didn't go anywhere. It might have been just a 114 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 2: complaint in and of itself, and there's been other reports 115 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,359 Speaker 2: about this as well. But we know that she was 116 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 2: put into an isolated area of the prison and we 117 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 2: think that's where she remains. And it may have to 118 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 2: do with the fact that she is high profile. As 119 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 2: we were talking about that, you find yourself not only 120 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 2: just in prison, but battling the prison politics, if that's 121 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 2: the way we can term it, because you know, it's 122 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 2: a bit of a jungle in there, and you've got 123 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 2: to deal with other prisoners and how they want things 124 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 2: to roll. They haven't got much to do with their time. 125 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 2: It's pretty basic when you're in prison. Most people who've 126 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 2: been to prison complain about the boredom, and Aaron Patterson 127 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 2: will be in the weeks and months to come feeling 128 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 2: that boredom. She's been there for quite some time since 129 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 2: November of twenty twenty three. But now she doesn't have 130 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 2: that trial to focus on. We've heard that she's setting 131 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 2: herself for an appeal that might take up some of 132 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 2: her time, but really her main chance to fight this 133 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 2: was a trial and a jury didn't believe her when 134 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 2: she said that she didn't mean to kill these people. 135 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 2: They did not believe her. 136 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: And as far as we know, Aaron is the only 137 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 1: triple murderer that's at Dame Phillis Frost. 138 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 2: That's right, she is in rarefied air as a criminal. Again, 139 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 2: that goes to her high profile. She's not only notorius 140 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 2: Australia White, She's notorious around the world. Now. The story, 141 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 2: as you know, has been reported in The Washington Post, 142 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 2: New York Times, the Times in London, it's everywhere. We 143 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 2: were doing interviews on Monday evening and calls were coming 144 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 2: in from everywhere, especially the UK. You know, it was 145 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 2: just one of those things that had a life of 146 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 2: its own, and you know, we had a twelve page 147 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 2: lift out in the Herald Son. Our opponents had major 148 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 2: coverage as well. This is one of those rare crime 149 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 2: stories that come along every five to ten years. 150 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 1: And that is a lot coming from someone like you Dows, 151 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 1: who has such experience in the industry as a veteran 152 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: crime reporter. 153 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 2: It's not hard to define because the ones that I've 154 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 2: noticed that had a life of their own would be 155 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 2: the trial of Adrian Bailey. There was enormous amount of 156 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 2: public outrage about what happened to Jill mar That had 157 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 2: a layer of systemic problems with the parole system because 158 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 2: Adrian Bailey should not have been free before that. There 159 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 2: was the case of the death of Maria Corp. One 160 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 2: woman went to jail on manslaughter and her husband killed himself. 161 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 2: But they are examples of stories that just go on 162 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 2: and on and on. Aaron Patterson has exposed what can 163 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 2: happen in a rural town with a normal family when 164 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 2: something extraordinary happens. And that thing that was extraordinary is 165 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 2: that she decided to kill a family, her family for 166 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 2: reasons that we are not quite clear on yet. There's 167 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:52,320 Speaker 2: lots of reasons that have come up that we haven't 168 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 2: actually got. 169 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 1: The reason from her, and we may never know. 170 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 2: We may never know. I mean, you and I talk 171 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 2: about this. We have slightly different opinions sort of around 172 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 2: the same areas about why she may have done this, 173 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 2: but we both sort of agree that it's likely to 174 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 2: be some form of revenge. 175 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: Yes, I think it's pretty fair to say that Aaron 176 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:19,679 Speaker 1: did have a hatred towards her estranged husband, Simon, and 177 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: that probably fested into a resentment for his parents. And 178 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: really Heather and Ian were collateral damage in her plan. 179 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 2: And if we accept that, it shows a kind of 180 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 2: ruthlessness to have the capacity to kill people that aren't 181 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 2: really involved in your life or your problems. Aaron Patterson 182 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:47,679 Speaker 2: has said on numerous occasions that she loved her family, 183 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:51,319 Speaker 2: b that these people never did anything bad to her. 184 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 2: And when we've sat and talked about this, and we 185 00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 2: have talked about that moment when and she's served deathcap 186 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 2: mushrooms in a beef Wellington, as everyone knows, and she 187 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 2: tells them that she has cancer and then they pray 188 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 2: for her. And I often wonder what she felt like 189 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 2: in that moment. 190 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: And right now, what's probably going through her head at 191 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: the moment is the process through the courts. 192 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:25,679 Speaker 2: Yes, there's a few hearings to go. The first major 193 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 2: one will be a plea hearing, and in that hearing, 194 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:37,679 Speaker 2: her barrister will be setting out mitigating circumstances surrounding her 195 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 2: guilty place. So why she doesn't deserve to go away? 196 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 2: Life is life. All the things that Aaron Patterson has 197 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 2: done in her life, how she held a job, She 198 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 2: doesn't have any major convictions before this. All that kind 199 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 2: of thing will come up. Once we're through the plea, 200 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 2: then Justice Christopher Beale will be able to say, okay, 201 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,199 Speaker 2: now I'm going to sentence. The sentencing hearing will be 202 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 2: you know, at some point after that, probably a couple 203 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:06,839 Speaker 2: of weeks at least, and then he's going to determine 204 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:10,679 Speaker 2: a minimum and maximum term. The maximum she can get 205 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 2: his life and the very maximum she can get his 206 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 2: life is life. Now she's a convicted triple murderer with 207 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 2: an attempted murder on top of that, it's going to 208 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 2: have to be a prison stint. I would suggest above 209 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 2: thirty probably above thirty five. If she gets a minimum, 210 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 2: I reckon she'll get a minimum, there'll be thirty five 211 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 2: and above. 212 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: So there's a high chance that Aaron Patterson could die 213 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 1: in prison. 214 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 2: Absolutely. Some prisoners are allowed out when they become so 215 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 2: sick or infirmed that you know they're no danger to anyone, 216 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 2: but you know many prisoners do die in jail. If 217 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 2: she does end up appealing, which we hear that she will, 218 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 2: she has to lodge that within twenty eight days of 219 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 2: her sentence, and there'll be a hearing to see whether 220 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 2: that appeal has any grounds, and that could be the 221 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 2: end of it. 222 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 1: Thanks Towles, I'm sure we'll see you here back again. 223 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 2: See the brob