WEBVTT - Are we about to find out what happened to William Tyrrell? 0:00:10.520 --> 0:00:13.520 Hello, and welcome to Something to Talk About, the Stellar Podcast. 0:00:13.640 --> 0:00:16.600 I'm Sarah La Marquin, your host, and today I'm sitting 0:00:16.640 --> 0:00:19.320 down with the creators behind one of the country's biggest 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:23.000 true crime podcasts. Dan Box and Nina Young have been 0:00:23.040 --> 0:00:26.480 covering the disappearance of William Tyrrel ever since the then 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:28.720 three year old boy went missing from a dead end 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.880 road in a sleepy New South Wales town. It was 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:35.839 a case that shocked the nation, destroyed lives and ended careers. 0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:39.559 More than ten years later, we still don't have answers. 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:43.920 Late last year, Dan and Nina released the investigative podcast 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:47.280 Witness William Tyrrel, which went straight to the top of 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:51.160 the charts and has since had millions of downloads. This week, 0:00:51.320 --> 0:00:53.920 after months of research, being back on the road and 0:00:54.000 --> 0:00:57.720 speaking to countless witnesses, four new episodes are about to 0:00:57.760 --> 0:01:02.520 be released, revealing shocking new in for Dan Box and 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:04.919 Nina Young. Welcome to the Stellar Podcast. 0:01:05.520 --> 0:01:05.600 You. 0:01:05.880 --> 0:01:09.160 I know you're very familiar with how podcasts work, are 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:11.800 pretty much more so than anyone else in Australia, but 0:01:12.280 --> 0:01:15.600 first time here and of course just full disclosure to 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:19.400 our listeners right up front. We all work together yep. 0:01:19.440 --> 0:01:22.000 But before anyone thinks that they're about to watch or 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:26.119 listen or read to an editorial meeting. Okay, that might 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:29.560 be true, but an editorial meeting with two of the 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:33.680 top investigative journalists in the country, the brilliant duo behind 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:38.680 Witness William Tyrrel, which launched last year last October went 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:43.160 straight to number one on the Australian podcast charts, millions 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:46.400 and millions of downloads since, and is about to return 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:50.920 with four new episodes that will reveal new information that 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:55.640 could take the investigation in a whole new direction. So 0:01:56.320 --> 0:01:58.960 if that's an editorial meeting, let's get on with it. 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:01.760 Let's call h are an invite Australia to come and 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:05.040 join this. William Terrell, of course, being the three year 0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:08.600 old boy who disappeared from his grandmother's garden in twenty fourteen. 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:12.000 He's never been found. The disappearance has been one of 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:16.519 the most talked about cases in the country for months now. 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:19.720 You have been working on these new episodes that will 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:23.040 be dropping from tomorrow. You've spoken to everyone who's been 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:27.560 involved in the case, including William's biological family, his cares 0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:33.880 and former homicide detective Gary Jubilan Dan. I'll start with you. 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:37.280 You are a Walkley Award winning journalist who's broken hundreds 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:40.080 of stories across the course of your career, both in 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:42.360 the UK and here in Australia. 0:02:42.560 --> 0:02:43.760 Can you tell me. 0:02:44.320 --> 0:02:48.480 What first drew your attention to the William Yrell disappearance 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:51.800 and your first involvement in investigating this case. 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:55.000 I was one of the few reporters who covered the 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:58.119 immedia after Martha William's disappearance, so that's going back ten 0:02:58.200 --> 0:03:02.959 years now. Wasn't there the day after, but I think 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:06.480 I was there within days working on the story. And 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:12.920 I remember I've covered a lot of murders and you 0:03:13.000 --> 0:03:15.880 get kind of hardened to it. They don't bother you anymore, 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:18.839 but this one. I remember one occasion I was up 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:22.160 on Benerroom Drive, which is the road that William was 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:25.040 last seen on, and the detective who was leading the 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:27.560 investigation at the time was talking me through their theory 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:32.080 then that William may have run down this grass bank 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:35.800 from the house to the road, and that maybe someone 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:38.760 had been on that road and that person had taken William. 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:42.280 And I had a three year old at home, so 0:03:42.360 --> 0:03:45.000 the same age as William. To within a couple of months, 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:48.640 I think, and because of that, I could picture a 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:51.960 three year old and how they move, you know, that 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:55.520 slightly wonky, slightly funky way of moving. I could picture 0:03:56.120 --> 0:03:59.920 my three year old running down that slope to the 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:04.080 person on the road, and it troubled me in a 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:06.800 way I don't think any other case has troubled me. 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:10.960 And I've stayed with it in different ways and in 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:13.480 different forms reporting on it in the ten years since, 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:19.440 and I think part of the reason to come back 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:20.640 to it and look at it in the way we 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:22.320 have done now, and Nina and I have been working 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:27.440 on this for two and a bit years now. This 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:28.760 is part of the reason I was grateful for the 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:30.320 invitation to come and talk to you, because I know 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:33.800 normally this podcast is about talking to celebrities and about 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:37.800 with that world of celebrity. But of all the murders 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:39.960 that I've covered, and I think maybe there are a 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:44.440 few other murders in Australia that have that element of 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:48.279 almost celebrity to it. Not the good things about celebrity, 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:53.440 but the vast amount of media attention. I've literally seen 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:59.200 a paparazzi car chases pursuing witnesses. I've actually been involved 0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:03.600 in one of them, the people trawling through the untold 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:06.960 details of other people's lives, lives that are just kind 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:09.600 of held up to the examination of the media gaze 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:13.000 and kind of ripped apart all that element of celebrity. 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:17.200 The William Toole case has and has been kind of 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:20.599 distorted by it, And now I don't think, like maybe 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:23.040 with a lot of celebrities, what people think is the 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:26.880 truth and what actually is the truth of completely different things. 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:30.160 So that that's why we came back to it. 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:34.039 Nina, what about for you, because you have, over the 0:05:34.080 --> 0:05:37.680 course of your journalism career tell our audience a little 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:41.440 bit about that idea and as Dan has explained, this 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:45.839 story that has genuinely captivated an entire nation, and then 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:50.320 from that moment bringing something like witness to fruition. 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:53.599 Yeah. So, Dan, I think started at a company about 0:05:53.640 --> 0:05:55.720 two years ago. We met too and a bit. 0:05:55.839 --> 0:05:56.000 Yeah. 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:57.000 Yeah. 0:05:57.040 --> 0:05:59.320 The day he came in, we had a meeting and 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:01.560 I was like, Hi, Nina, I've heard you're doing a 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:03.800 William terryl podcast and I would like to work on 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:08.520 it because I don't do small talk. Sarah. No, Hello, 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:10.839 I'm going to work with you. I don't think I 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:14.240 anticipated at that point or could have the amount of 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:16.240 work that we were actually going to be pouring into 0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:18.000 this thing, or that we'd be working on it two 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:23.080 years later. But we did get straight to work. A 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:27.360 lot of that work is sort of quiet background filing, 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:29.000 the amount of filing this guy does. 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:35.080 We've got a timeline, so a list of events like 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:37.679 bullet points, this happened, then that happened, then that happened, 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:41.600 then that happened. I think it's actually about quarter of 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:44.920 a million words now, so it's the length of two 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:47.440 and a bit books, and that's just our kind of 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:52.400 main reference document. But you know, the amount of work 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:55.400 that Nina's done, we wouldn't be here now talking about 0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:58.120 these new episodes because I thought we'd finish this series 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:00.440 last year, and if I used to tell Nina that 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:03.400 I was taking the whole of this year off. But 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:05.560 at the end of the last year, Nina went off 0:07:05.560 --> 0:07:09.040 on this kind of side investigation, which I kind. 0:07:08.800 --> 0:07:11.400 Of just kept going, like, well, i'll talk to you 0:07:11.400 --> 0:07:13.320 about it. 0:07:13.000 --> 0:07:16.680 And then we finished the series last year. I thought 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:18.320 that was the end of that. Nina said, right now, 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:19.840 you have to sit down and I'll tell you what 0:07:19.960 --> 0:07:23.080 I've got, and I remember the feeling there's almost this 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:26.360 sinking feeling of Okay, there's so much more to do. 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:30.160 So that whole year off which, by the ways, first 0:07:30.600 --> 0:07:31.640 i've heard about. 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:34.200 As a manager. 0:07:34.240 --> 0:07:37.520 But we'll talk about we'll talk about that offline that 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:39.880 you knew then that that you had to go back 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:47.760 coming into the first series. What were the biggest questions 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:51.280 for each of you that you initially wanted to explore. 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:54.440 What of all of the questions that people were asking, 0:07:54.520 --> 0:07:58.640 do you think that appetite for answers was the strongest 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:00.400 for Nina. 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:04.640 I think there was so much mystery surrounding this case, 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:08.720 and despite what had been fed to the media, there 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:11.800 weren't really any details to it. So we knew that 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:15.280 the police were looking at Williams foster mother as a 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:20.080 potential person of interest or a suspect, but they didn't 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:22.760 really say why, and they didn't say why they were 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:25.240 looking at her rather than looking at other persons of 0:08:25.240 --> 0:08:28.520 interest that had been raised previously in the investigation. I 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:31.960 think that's the biggest focus that people had when we 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:33.360 first started this investigation. 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:38.120 Yeah, for me, it was that that kind of gulf 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:42.959 between what people thought they knew because of what had 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:48.600 been in the media and what actually the truth was. 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:51.600 But there was another element to it for me, which 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:53.880 was because I'd been reporting on this in different ways 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:56.520 for newspapers. I did a couple of books that touched 0:08:56.559 --> 0:08:59.800 on this. I knew a lot of the people involved 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:02.760 in this case and the investigation, and I had a 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:06.880 sense of how many lives had been caught up and damaged, 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:10.480 not just by William going missing, but by the police 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:14.679 investigation that followed. So, you know, obviously you had the families, 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:18.280 the biological and the Foster family, but you had different 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:22.360 witnesses who'd been held up by the police to media 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:28.240 and court scrutiny, and their lives had just crumbled. And 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:30.200 then the police and the media had moved on to 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:33.040 the next person, and then to each time. There was 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:38.040 this kind of human wreckage left behind, and I I 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:41.360 wanted to put the focus back a little bit on 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:44.960 those lives as well, the lives that have been damaged 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:49.560 because of this attempt to find this child, which still 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:50.679 hasn't been successful. 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:53.839 Let me ask you both a little bit about that, 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:57.239 the motivation for doing the work that you do, because 0:09:57.600 --> 0:10:01.480 it's obviously this particular case, and then of course the 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:04.160 other stories if you investigated over the course of your 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:08.679 respective careers. The material is it's extremely dark, it's confronting. 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:13.840 You are working through details that Obviously there are other 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:16.600 people in other professions that we as a society think. 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:20.200 I don't know how I could be exposed to all 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:23.079 of that and then go home and live a quote 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:28.720 unquote normal life. Is that what has motivated each of you, 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:32.040 Nina is as Dan spoke, he had that human connection 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:34.959 as a parent, which I think resonated with a lot 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:37.040 of people. I know. For me, my son was the 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:40.199 same age as William and I remember one day there 0:10:40.280 --> 0:10:42.600 was a copy of the Daily Telegraph on the living 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:45.560 room table and Logan was in his Spider Man suit 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:49.600 and he said to me, Mummy is that me? And 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:52.000 I just sorry, I just wanted to share that moment 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:54.400 down when you spoke about it. Obviously we know as 0:10:54.440 --> 0:10:57.240 journalists we don't need those personal connections to stories, but 0:10:57.360 --> 0:11:00.800 when they do happen, you know that's also tapping into 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:04.400 something that other people are feeling. Nina, sorry, I of 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:07.360 arson answered that question. How obknoxious off me. I really 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:09.000 want to hear your answer. 0:11:09.000 --> 0:11:14.840 Yeah, obviously any parent in Australia can look at William's 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:18.599 face and see that connection and sort of know instinctively 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:21.080 how horrible that feeling would be a lot to lose 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:25.880 your child. But I also kind of connected with the 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:30.120 idea of there's all these potentially innocent people that have 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:32.679 been held up as suspects that who have had their 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:35.880 lives ruined. I mean that could happen to literally anyone. 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:39.000 You could just be going about your day, you could 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:41.719 be in the wrong place at the wrong time. And 0:11:41.960 --> 0:11:46.320 I kind of went really naively into this investigation, going 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:50.839 if the police are pursuing this woman so strongly, this. 0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:51.880 Is William's foster them. 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:54.240 Yeah, of course they have something. 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:57.800 I thought that too when it was on the front page. 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:00.600 And the fact that we've come through the inquest with 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:05.480 no eyewitness evidence, no forensic evidence, no evidence that has 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:09.440 really been presented, I'm not happy with that. And so 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:13.640 I do feel like I'm driven by wanting to hold 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:15.000 people accountable for. 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:19.280 The damage done to those lives by the police decision 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:22.439 to focus on those people. And it's not just the people. 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:25.079 It goes back to children again, and so it's not 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:27.720 just the people you see on the front pages or 0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:31.160 the TVs. It's their families and those ripples just spread out. 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:36.840 It's so true, isn't. At every headline there's thousands of people, 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:41.360 entire communities, entire families that are behind that, and then 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:44.680 the story moves on, but their lives remain. And that's 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:47.080 before we even get into the whole social media I 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:51.120 think where everyone Obviously there's a lot of self appointed 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:54.320 detectives out there of course with true crime as well, 0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:57.800 so people then becoming vigilantes and feeling that they can 0:12:59.480 --> 0:12:59.959 keep the case. 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:03.280 Just on that. And sorry to interrupt, when we started 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:09.240 this reporting, because we were reporting that maybe the police 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:12.840 hadn't got it right, or we at least investigating the 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:16.640 possibility the police might not have it right about Williams Foster. 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:16.960 Mum. 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:20.120 I knew there were whole communities out there online who 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:22.880 very much thought the police were in the right, and 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:25.280 I knew they weren't going to like this, and so 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:29.200 talk to Nina about it, about the possibility for online abuse, 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:31.520 social media abuse, and it came in, and it came 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:32.800 in much quicker than I expect. 0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:35.400 He had the chat with me one day and just said, look, 0:13:35.440 --> 0:13:37.880 I'm only going to bring it. Don't look at this stuff, 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:39.480 and I'm not going to look at the stuff, but 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:42.520 I've told someone to flag if your name comes into it, 0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:44.600 and also if there are credible threats to come up. 0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:48.800 It was the next day already it happened. 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:51.200 We had to talk to the company about it, just 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:55.440 to let them know. It's not just me. It's everyone 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:57.640 who's worked on this project, their names on it. So 0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:00.000 there's a potential for all of those people to be chased. 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:02.080 And I didn't mind if they were just having a 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:05.280 pop at me. I kind of expected it, but it 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:07.600 wasn't okay for them to go after other people. And 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:09.520 I have seen some of the stuff that's been said 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:13.760 since and that element to it, that kind of modern 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:17.199 element of media celebrity that's really ugly. 0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:20.360 Yeah, people have tried to message me on Instagram. There 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:23.280 was at one stage somebody rang the company here and 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:27.440 said that I'd tried to call them and they had 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:30.000 forgotten my phone number and asked the reception to give 0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:31.720 them my phone number. And I know it was the 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:33.920 same person because they'd come through your email and Instagram 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:37.280 as well. So, yeah, it's a whole new world now 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:38.920 that we have social media involved as. 0:14:38.800 --> 0:14:41.200 Well, and what people seem to be happy to do 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:45.440 on social media is be worse towards women. I think 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:47.480 the kind of things people have said about me, some 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:51.840 of which is laughably it's actually quite funny, some of 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:53.240 which is really nasty. 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:57.600 There definitely is a toxicity I think that is reserved, 0:14:57.800 --> 0:14:59.280 particularly for women. 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:03.200 Yeah, surprised by this, definitely not surprising. 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:05.560 But even when you are prepared, and even when you have, 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:08.320 as you say, somebody light down warning you, and then 0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:11.040 the next day it's happening. Yeah, you can be prepared, 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:13.240 and then of course there's the reality. And you're talking, 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:15.960 Nina about people trying to get hold of your phone number. 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:19.920 Anyone that's been in that situation would understand that feeling 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:22.680 that well, what else are they trying to fight? Are 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:24.880 they trying to get my address? Are they going to 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:27.560 be waiting for me in the office in the car 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:32.040 park when I leave? In those moments, Nina? For you, 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:34.480 how do you balance that up? Yeah? 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:36.240 I mean I think for a story like this, when 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:40.440 you know what you're doing is important, that it has 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:45.440 you know it's worth telling, then yeah, it's worth it. 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:48.520 Let me qualify that. I think it is worth it, 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:51.080 and I think on this one it has been worth it. 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:55.920 That said, it does take a toll. I don't know 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:59.520 if I'll do crime reporting again after this, and I've 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:02.720 done in almost twenty years on and off of doing it. 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:10.880 But this case, this investigation, this has taken more out 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:17.440 of me, and we have found things and darknesses that 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:20.760 I never expected to and a lot of that is 0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:25.600 in the episodes that are coming out from Monday. The 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:30.840 things we have seen and found have been utterly shocking. 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:33.560 I actually don't know if I want to do this anymore. 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:36.400 So I think it's worth doing, but I don't know 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:38.320 if I can. 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:42.480 If that makes sense, it does make sense, and you 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:45.360 just said I think it's worth doing. And when I 0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:48.720 heard you say that, you don't think you will do 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:50.080 I don't know. 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:53.240 I've got I've never got this this far before. 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:56.640 That would beg the question. Obviously, WILL want to talk 0:16:56.680 --> 0:16:58.720 to you both about what you can tell us about 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:01.760 what's coming up and some of what you have uncovered. 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:07.520 But without getting into that right now, is it worth it? 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:08.760 Has it been worth it? 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:09.560 Oh? 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:13.160 Yeah, it's it's definitely worth it. Well, I don't think 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:17.160 either of us are sleeping well at the moment we're 0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:20.840 not sleeping, Dan's had to deal with wild mood swings 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:21.119 from me. 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:23.040 That's not true. 0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:28.359 I think we could have anticipated. Yeah, I do think 0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:31.640 we could have anticipated where this was going to take us, 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:35.359 and I think we both thought it was going to 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:38.040 be quite a lot more simple than it was. I 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:41.439 think the day I was calling up bowlers from a 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:44.560 bowling alley thirty years ago, and maybe the day I 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:47.160 was running around trying to find a microcassette tape, and 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:50.760 there's just been so many weird wrong turns and right 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:53.240 turns throughout this. I just don't think we could have 0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:57.800 anticipated how long, in depth, unusual and dark it was 0:17:57.800 --> 0:17:59.480 all going to be. But I think it's worth it. 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:02.880 We know there was no small talk in your working relationship, 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:05.119 as you're saying. I mean, you got straight straight to 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:08.320 the point on your first meeting. This is obviously an 0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:11.320 extremely intense experience, and it has been the two of 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:13.840 you working on it, and you have been doing a 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:16.000 lot of traveling as well. You've been on the road 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:18.639 a lot to small country towns. You're in the car 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:21.680 together for hours every day. I mean, everyone who's ever 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:23.840 done a road trip knows it's not all it's cracked 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:26.080 up to be with the little Hollywood movies with their 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:30.399 music montage. In fact, talking about montage, I've got a 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:32.680 little bit of audio because I was going to ask 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:35.720 if you argue, but don't answer that, because just a 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:38.520 little bit of audio has made its way into my 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:41.560 hands courtesy of our producer Emi Lee. 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:43.199 We've just pulled up. 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:44.440 No we haven't. 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:46.840 Okay, Well, I was going to say, what's on the 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:54.080 sign certainly helps you? Yeah, we are for the recording audience. No, 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:56.840 I know that I'm not just telling you what's on 0:18:56.880 --> 0:18:57.320 the sign. 0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:00.920 I'm waiting for you to say, so done. Where are well? 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:02.800 I was gonna, you know what for once, I was 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:03.760 going to say where. 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:05.399 We were, but we hadn't pulled up with should we 0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:06.280 not bicker anymore? 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:12.680 All right? See, this is a danger when you're working 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:17.600 audio that there's always audio to play back what that's 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:20.200 actually pretty mild editorial. 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:22.240 I think we also had a fight where because I 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:24.760 was saying that Dan doesn't say yes and enough as 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:26.000 a scene partner. 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:27.639 Yes and enough. 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:29.640 Yeah, she didn't know what I was. 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:35.040 Talking about. That the role of a reporter is really 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:39.320 to do what your producer tells you. And it's possible 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:42.480 that that maybe he got blurred after. Like I meant, 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:44.199 one point, we were doing like six hours in the 0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:46.879 car next day, six hours in the car next day, 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:49.400 and then when you stop, it's to do these emotionally 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:52.600 charged interviews, and then you're back in the car driving on. 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:57.200 You're staying in these motel rooms. And at one point 0:19:57.320 --> 0:19:59.239 Nina was up in the middle of the night and 0:19:59.400 --> 0:20:03.520 the next more, you know, she's kind of feverishly looking 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:05.439 at this thing that seemed really important. And then I 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:07.119 get a text the next morning saying I need to 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:09.359 talk to you. And the first thing we say is 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:12.080 she's back in the car, the microphone's back on. But 0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:14.080 I wouldn't have wanted to do it with anyone else. 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:17.920 And that's the thing that is true. Everything in these 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:23.000 next four episodes is from Nina. Like I, she drove this. 0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:26.000 The stuff we found, I would never have expected she 0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:29.760 found it. I'm very much just walking around asking the 0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:33.959 questions on tape. This is where Nina took charge of 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:39.600 the investigation without being asked, because it was mine, without asking, 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:44.560 without asking, she took charge of the investigation and just 0:20:44.800 --> 0:20:48.680 dragged it into being something it was never going to 0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:50.600 be that good, but Nina made it. 0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:54.399 Dan is exaggerating that. Dan, there's worked a huge amount 0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:56.120 on this as well. 0:20:56.960 --> 0:21:03.080 Coming from that sort of confer emotionally draining, physically taxing, 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:07.320 our duous investigative work. To move in between those different 0:21:07.400 --> 0:21:11.840 things presumably is going back to that skill. 0:21:11.560 --> 0:21:14.959 That you my wife will talk about this though. I 0:21:15.119 --> 0:21:19.120 really struggle with the transition from work out of work 0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:23.040 into family and I'm not very good at it, partly 0:21:23.040 --> 0:21:26.320 because our work is intense in terms of the subject 0:21:27.280 --> 0:21:30.000 because most of my work seems to be murder at 0:21:30.000 --> 0:21:35.320 the moment, but also the intensity which we bring to 0:21:35.359 --> 0:21:40.240 it because we're writing scripts, we're writing articles, and then 0:21:40.880 --> 0:21:44.320 particularly if you're working from home, to flip from that 0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:47.199 into dinner time. I've got three kids, one of them 0:21:47.240 --> 0:21:51.080 is three. It's up to my wife hates I want 0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:54.400 to say this. It's rolling chaos, and to flip from 0:21:55.000 --> 0:21:58.240 basically intense murder to oh, it's dinner time with a 0:21:58.280 --> 0:22:02.280 three year old. Cannot do it. I try so hard. 0:22:02.960 --> 0:22:06.719