WEBVTT - Unmasking predators: Dennis Martyn Pt.1 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.039 Detective see aside of life the average person is never 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.119 exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440 and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:46.120 Join me now as I take you into this world. Today, 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:49.600 I had a chat with retired Queensland cop Dennis Martin 0:00:50.479 --> 0:00:53.479 as a former detective. Dennis had a diverse career with 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:56.240 the police, where he worked on the Daniel Morkam case 0:00:56.720 --> 0:01:00.080 helped track down pedophiles. Before he got into policing, he 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:02.880 grew up in the remote country town of Mare, where 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:06.160 there was a tough racial divide. When he was younger, 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:08.720 he joined the army as a soldier and then went 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:11.240 on to join the Queensland Police, where he spent the 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:14.840 next twenty years of his life. I never worked with Dennis, 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:17.800 but we've had lengthy conversations over the years after we're 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:21.480 both out of the police. Let's have a listen, Dennis Martin, 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:23.000 welcome to catch killers. 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:24.320 No problems, Thanks very much. 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:27.399 It's been a few years in the making getting you on. 0:01:27.520 --> 0:01:31.160 I think we first started talking and communicating after I'd 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:32.800 left the cops and you were out of the cops. 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:34.720 That's great. Yeah, yeah, it has been some years. 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:38.440 Yeah. They slipped by it, don't they very quickly. I'm 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:40.720 going to ask you a big question up front. When 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:43.400 you look back, what's your reflections on your time in 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:43.839 the police. 0:01:44.319 --> 0:01:48.680 Look, I think the reflection would be that it was 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:53.360 a good job. There was a lot of satisfaction. There 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:56.720 was a until you started to climb the rank structure, 0:01:57.040 --> 0:01:59.560 and then you found out obviously there was some you know, 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:03.080 issues that you had to comply with if you were 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:05.480 to go any further, if you wanted to stay as 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:09.520 probably a constable. Yeah, I think everything was probably kosher 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:10.880 and if you didn't want to do anything that was 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:14.720 going to make anybody think adverse to you or make 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:16.799 any decisions that other people didn't want you to make, 0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:18.120 you'd be quite happy. 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:20.519 Yeah, there's a bit of a compromise, and they have 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:23.680 the further up you go up up the corporate ladder, 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:25.200 there is a hierarchy. 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:27.400 Yeah. The sooner you get to the the closer you 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:30.000 get to the point of the pyramid, the more scrutiny 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:32.960 you come under, and the more I guess you leave 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:35.120 yourself open for other people to have a go at you. 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:37.960 Yeah. I look at policing and I'm not sure, and 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:42.200 we're going to talk about your army career. But operational 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:45.079 police and management police there two different streams. There were 0:02:45.120 --> 0:02:47.400 people that I could respect in the police that were 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:50.640 good managers, but I didn't think they had the skills 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:53.480 or the experience as an operational police officer. But it 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:56.079 seems to get convoluted. As you climb up the top. 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:59.120 Someone rises because they might be a good operational police officer, 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:04.560 come management and they're not. They're better offers operational police 0:03:04.560 --> 0:03:08.080 officers and managers. Then on the other side you have 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:11.080 these people who are good managers and they climb up 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:14.720 the corporate ladder or the hierarchy, and all of a sudden. 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:17.320 They think they're operational, but they haven't got the experience. 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:19.840 That's exactly right. Yes, you'll get some people that come 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:22.960 never leave the academy. Basically, they're like full time union students. 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:25.200 Stay there and then they may come out on the 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:26.600 road for a couple of years, and they're back is 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:29.240 teaching the academy. Then they'll go to a managerial position, 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:31.280 and then they're back on the road as an inspector 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:34.720 giving you operational advice. Yeah, they have got no idea, 0:03:35.040 --> 0:03:37.520 absolutely no idea, and the advice they give you might 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:40.960 be legally sound, but it's not correct for that part 0:03:41.000 --> 0:03:43.440 of the area of town you're in, if that makes sense. 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:47.080 You know, they've got no feeling of what the crims 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:50.040 are up to. They've got no desire to put a 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:53.400 criminal notice and maybe source him out for some information. 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:56.960 It's just there's the evidence. Why aren't you arresting him? 0:03:57.040 --> 0:03:59.400 Why hasn't this been done? They've got no idea to 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:02.000 play the longer. Yeah, you know, and they are only 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:04.000 there for one short period of time anyway, to get 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:06.120 back behind a desk so they can go up to 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:08.160 superintendent and someone say forth. 0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:10.320 I think that's a big and I can only speak 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:13.440 for New South Wales, but my observation of other state police, 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:17.200 possibly even the federal police. The way that people can 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:20.880 climb the rank so quickly, I think causes problems. I 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:24.480 looked at New South Wales and thought you could simplify 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:27.839 or make it a better structured police force if you 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:31.440 had to stay for a period of time on the rank, 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:33.400 like say you became a sergeant, maybe you had to 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:36.479 spend five to seven years as a sergeant before you 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:38.880 could rise to be an inspector. Yeah. 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:42.000 Look, I don't disagree with that at all, and I 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:44.560 think that, you know, I tried to bring in something 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:47.560 at what they call a detective training school. You've had 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:51.599 some detective trainers there that were a detective sergeant, but 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:53.919 you know they've been there for five and seven and 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:57.640 eight years. And my suggestion was that, look, why don't 0:04:58.120 --> 0:05:00.960 you know you use this as some sort of I guess, 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:03.320 a bit of training for the operational police officer. But 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:06.000 a rest period gave him off the road after say 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:08.000 ten years, give him two years there and then back 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:09.960 on the right, fresh of them up, freshing them up 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:13.600 and gives you up to date information and on road experience. 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:16.040 For the new detectives coming through. Yeah, you thought I'd 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:20.400 kill the mother. You can't suggest such things, absolutely not. 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:22.280 He's been here for ten years and you know he's 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:24.440 getting sized thirty eight in his trousers and wants to 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:27.800 have small doughnuts for lunch. And there leave him alone. 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:33.120 It's a strange world, strange world policing. But yeah, there's 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:36.919 good and bad, and there's good cops bad cops. But anyway, 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:41.080 your career and people, Yeah, whether you like it or not, 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:45.320 but there's a lot of your profile is extrinsically linked 0:05:45.320 --> 0:05:49.839 to the Daniel Morkham case in that there was you're 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:52.039 and we're going to talk about it in detail later 0:05:52.120 --> 0:05:54.080 on in the podcast, so that don't want to cover 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:56.120 off on it now. I want people to understand who 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:59.360 you are before we get into the detail. But people 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:03.120 remember Daniel Markham that I think it was. He was 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:06.800 thirteen years old two thousand and three, seventh of December 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:08.800 two thousand and three when he disappeared. It was a 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:13.320 horrendous situation and his parents campaigned for a long time 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:16.440 and it took I think eight years before Brett Peter 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:23.359 Cowen was finally arrested for Daniel's murder and convicted. You 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:29.040 actually spoke to Brett Cowen within weeks of Daniel's disappearance 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:32.400 and you at that point in time you formed the 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:35.919 view that he was should be the number one suspect 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:39.360 for the murder. That's greatky time, we're going to talk 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:41.680 about that in depth because I think it's a very 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:44.159 interesting gives you an insight into policing and the robust 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:46.400 nature of policing, and there's a lot of pressure when 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:49.240 you're investigating crimes of that nature. 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:53.719 Yeah, look there is a lot of pressure, but there's 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:56.160 a lot of pressure brought from both ends, both from 0:06:56.160 --> 0:06:58.560 the families that want something completed and they want some 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:02.480 I guess resolution, and then you've got from the manage 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:05.320 and the management side of policing. You were saying, look, 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:08.360 we're not going to pay any overtime at the moment. Either, 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:11.080 do your own time, working your own time, So it 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:13.200 comes down from money. And then you've got pressure from 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:16.760 the operational management. We're saying we've got another murders just occurred. 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:18.160 You need to wrap this up, or we need to 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:21.040 not give you as many resources. It's just never ending 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:24.000 and people don't understand these competing priorities. Yeah, you know, 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:26.640 and they think, well, what hasn't something happened? Yeah, probaty 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:27.800 only got one guy working on it. 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:31.720 Yeah. Well so all those competing competing interest and we'll 0:07:31.760 --> 0:07:35.040 break that down a little bit. But before we move 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:38.160 on and talk about you, we're just in. I've seen 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:41.040 you speak about the Markham case and the empathy that 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:46.120 you have for Daniel's parents family, about what they went 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:49.520 through and how tirelessly they worked Denise and Bruce to 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:52.160 get justice for their kids. So I think we need 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:54.440 to sort of pay some homage to them and the 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:58.280 brutality of the crime. It's one that captured the attention 0:07:58.400 --> 0:07:59.680 of the nation, really didn't. 0:07:59.480 --> 0:08:05.000 It did, And they were just the epitome of what 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:10.960 a family would be. They were shed somebody's grandmother. He 0:08:11.080 --> 0:08:13.480 was a nice gentle fellow. They were a lovely family 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:17.320 and that's just the way they came across and they 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:19.920 were honest and open. There was nothing you could say 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:22.640 bad about them apart from just lovely people. 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:27.400 Yeah. Yeah, it was a sad, sad case. Was your life. 0:08:28.320 --> 0:08:31.520 It's been an interesting and diverse life. You grew up 0:08:31.560 --> 0:08:36.920 in Maury, western Town in New South Wales, it's a 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:38.880 town that had a tough reputation. There was a bit 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:42.040 of a racial divide there between the Aboriginal community and 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:46.439 the white community. That's the perception that seems to come 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:48.760 from the town. There was a lot of issues there. 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:52.040 You grew up there as a young Aboriginal boy in 0:08:52.080 --> 0:08:56.720 that world. Tell us your experiences of your childhood growing 0:08:56.760 --> 0:08:57.280 up in Maury. 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:00.440 Well, it's a very robust little town, you know, and 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:02.640 I don't think it's ever changed. It's always been around 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:06.960 ten thousand people, ten thy five hundred, very much an 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:09.200 itinerant working town, and a lot of people would come 0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:12.679 and do stick picking and cotton chipping and all of 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:15.840 those sort of things. You know, we lived what is 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:18.840 now well inside the town limits. But when we were there, 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:21.559 our house was on the outskirts and all it was 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:23.200 as soon as you walked out your door, you turned 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:27.079 left to go into scrubland and then you just get 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:28.880 big bribe bushes coming down the road, or if you 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:31.840 turn right, you go up to Killick store near the school. 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:34.800 And that's the way it was, and that was the town. 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:38.720 You know. There was never any I didn't see a 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:42.679 great deal of racism in my early years it was 0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:47.200 later on when I realized what racism was. But apart 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:49.920 from that, whether you were playing black white Chinese, not 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:51.960 that there were many Chinese, but there was the Chinese 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:55.520 shopping down, so you might have seen them. That was 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:58.080 the only thing other than that they're all kids, and 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:00.280 that's what it was, you know. Yeah, it was rough tumble. 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:03.320 There was no shoes, There was no nothing to do 0:10:03.400 --> 0:10:06.560 other than you go out and play in the fields. Really, 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:07.600 that's that's all there was. 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:09.880 Do you have good memories of your childhood? 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:14.040 Yeah? I do. Growing up, my father was a grave 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:17.680 digger and that's all pick and shovel, So I remember 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:21.760 going with him to the cemetery on a lot of occasions, 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:25.760 helping backfill graves. And then he was also the senatory 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:28.560 cart so he'd run down through the back lanes early 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:30.120 in the hours and pick up the sanitary carts from 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:32.360 the toilets in the back. And so I jump on 0:10:32.400 --> 0:10:34.240 the truck and go and help him tar out the 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:36.480 tin till we took in the van and washed them out. 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:38.400 So it was all of that sort of stuff, you know, 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:40.760 And that's just and there'd been nothing to go and 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:42.520 get a twenty two and go over and you get 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:45.680 some rabbits and bring them home and you know, skin 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:48.240 them and gut them and have some dinner that evening. 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:50.480 Or it was absolutely that's what we were allowed to do. 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:53.080 Okay, that was the life. Well, it gives a bit 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:56.560 of an insight and compared to life growing up in 0:10:56.600 --> 0:10:59.560 the city, no wonder you turn out tough growing up 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:02.480 and having environment. And I supped it self sufficient too. 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:05.240 Yeah. Well, look, it's a funny story when you say that, 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:08.800 because years later my daughter, I can't remember how well, 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:10.600 she might have been about six or seven. It was 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:13.720 near Easter time and I didn't even give it a thought, 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:16.640 and I took her over into the paddocks and we 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:21.360 got some rabbits and he did shoot the yes, and 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:22.960 she's still from to this day he brings it up 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:26.160 that I killed Easter bunny. Tasted nice. 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:29.000 Your por chop will have to get there on the 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:34.280 on the podcast. So how long were you living in 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:37.000 Maur Did you join the army straight from Maur. 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:42.080 Yeah, look, I joined, I didn't join. I I did 0:11:42.080 --> 0:11:44.440 some work at the local RSL club and I was 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:48.280 sitting there one day after cleaning the toilets and our 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:50.839 little things that used to do at the club. And 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:55.319 in came the recruitings ergeant from the army, so they 0:11:55.320 --> 0:11:56.840 were in town. So I went and had a chat 0:11:56.920 --> 0:11:59.079 and he goes, look, no one joins the army for 0:11:59.120 --> 0:12:01.120 three years, mate, He said, you always do it for 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:02.520 six wink wink. I didn't know. 0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:06.839 So in I went and signature before it walked out. 0:12:07.000 --> 0:12:11.600 Absolutely yeah, So in I went and that was that 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:14.920 was that, And I didn't come out until ninety seven 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:16.680 and then stayed in as a reservist after that. 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:20.319 How old were you when you joined the eighteen and 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:22.280 where'd you do your basic training? 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:26.280 Basic training was at one RTP kopooka Atana wagga yea. 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:29.680 I still clearly remember. I was in Charlie Company, twenty 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:31.760 four Patoon and it was a corporate kirk out and 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:34.679 I still remember him. Yeah, just it looked very similar 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:35.199 to yourself. 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:38.719 My son went through the basic training down there, and 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:42.400 I remember, I call it the best bit of par 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:44.240 anything I did, because I sent him in as a 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:47.520 kidney came out of man. But it really I saw 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:49.840 the difference. And it was what three four months or 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:55.000 whatever the training was, but you saw the kids get 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:57.360 on the bus and be driven there and by the 0:12:57.400 --> 0:13:00.720 time they're passing out they were completely different human boots. 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:03.360 Absolutely love you know. I was pretty straight up and 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:05.920 down coming from Mari. I thought, yep, jumped on the 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:07.920 bus here in Sydney because so sorry, I got recruited 0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:09.880 and you had to fly from. Actually, I think we've 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:12.160 got to train over and not train from. There's only 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:15.040 one train every couple of days from Mari to Sydney, 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:17.000 and then had to make our way to the recruiting 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:19.320 section and then they got us on a bus from 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:22.240 here to Wagga. But during the bus trip they searched 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:24.640 you took anything off of your like knives or anything 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:26.679 that you shouldn't have had got you off for the bus. 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:29.600 At the end of the day, lined up all your gear, 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:32.920 took it away next top with the barbershop, no hair left. 0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:34.880 I was just that's the way it was. 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:40.160 I remember before my son joined though, I was saying, 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:42.280 you probably want to do some training, get some training, 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:44.599 get some fitness up, and that I'd go for a 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:46.640 run with him in the morning and do a little 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:49.280 bit and he'd be laying there, laying on the lands. 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:52.120 I think you have no idea, You have no idea 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:56.080 what's about to happen to you. But anyway, it's an experience. 0:13:56.120 --> 0:13:58.760 So where'd you go and what was your role after 0:13:59.120 --> 0:13:59.840 basic training? 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:03.920 Well, after that, I went to what they called, I 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:07.880 guess initial employment training down at Pucketpanyol. I went down 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:09.840 there for another few months and then I ended up 0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:14.480 here at Mossman at thirty Terminal Squadron. So I stayed 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:17.640 there for a couple of years, and then I went 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:22.960 to Uburudonga and then swapped over to Intelligence Corps and 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:26.240 I went from there to One INC Company at in Brisbane. 0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:31.760 Whilst there at One INC Company did tours of Somalia 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:34.280 and they came an interesting Yeah, that was interesting. 0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:34.840 Yeah. 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:36.720 I was caught up there with a few things that 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:42.200 you know, yeah, I guess being investigated for war crimes 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:45.760 and all that sort of stuff when we came back. 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:48.000 And that continued right throught about two thousand and nine. 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:50.840 They just kept sniping from the sidelines and found out 0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:52.760 there was nothing there. And that's the way it was 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:56.160 obviously until people started coming back from Afghanistan and Iraq 0:14:56.160 --> 0:14:57.480 and they thought we've got some new people there we 0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:00.120 can investigate, so turned the long. 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:03.720 Yeah, they left alone on there what's the role I 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:07.000 think the people who have been listening to the podcasts 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:08.840 long enough gather sense of what the role of an 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:11.280 intel officer is in the cops. What's the role of 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:12.960 a military intel officer? 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:14.800 Yeah, well, look, a military intel also has a lot 0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:18.320 of hats they can wear, and you know the psychological operations, 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:20.600 So on which turn you would go in and try 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:22.920 to work out how you're going to I guess change 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:24.800 the hearts and mind to the people. You might be 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:27.480 doing air drops of that sort of stuff, And I 0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:32.920 remember quite clearly and in Somalia the French Foreign Legion 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:36.840 tried similar But what they did was, you know, drop 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:39.120 things from the helicopters and say, look, come in and 0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:41.400 give us your weapons. And they were waiting for them 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:43.000 as were coming with the weapons. They took them as 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:46.480 combatants and just shot them dead. Deal with the French 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:47.040 Foreign Lesion. 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:49.560 Okay, well that's yeah, we're not formed for that point. 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:53.720 So then we have counterintelligence. Obviously you're looking at owned 0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:58.040 forces counter intelligence and then counter intelligence on the enemy. 0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:05.040 Then we have not eye ups, imagery, endless, linguist endless, 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:08.920 and one analyss one intelligence operator can do the whole lot. 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:14.680 So it was quite diverse. I thought, very good. I 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:18.560 do remember clearly talking to an old general from the division, 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:21.560 and he never spoke to obviously enlisted people like me 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:25.800 very often. But I ended up being his intelligence sergeant 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:28.840 and he said, look, I want ninety nine percent accuracy 0:16:28.880 --> 0:16:30.920 from here. If you're not, I'll get somebody else in tomorrow. 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:33.760 So there was a lot of work to try and 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:35.360 make sure that he got the accurate information. 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:38.600 Well, this is an important role, isn't it. Like when 0:16:38.600 --> 0:16:41.640 you've just job description there of what you're covering. If 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:44.400 you if you got it wrong, you could you could 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:46.520 create a disaster literally. 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:48.720 Look absolutely yeah. You know, at the end of the day, 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:50.880 if you give them false information to act on that information, 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:53.160 you know, you've got other people's lives in your hands. 0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:56.000 But I was actually very lucky that I went through 0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:59.680 that period of time that the intelligence operators went out 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:03.160 beyond the field, right, and you know we're in different 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:07.320 sort of clothes and trying to gain sources and get 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:10.639 information like that, right, right, So that was it was 0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:11.280 very interesting. 0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:15.120 So I had more control of the information that came in, 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:17.480 and you could make your assessments and a better way 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:20.000 to verify based on that. What were the dramas in 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:21.959 Somalia at the time when you were over there, What 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:22.560 was going on? 0:17:23.280 --> 0:17:25.840 It was just all they call it clans, but that 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:28.040 really just tribes or whatever you want to call it. 0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:31.320 They were just shooting, killing each other and the whole 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:34.680 country was just a mess. It was run by a 0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:37.480 couple of warlords, you know. War's army was one in 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:41.000 around the Bi Dull area. The other was a deed 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:47.080 was the I think the main one from Mogadishu. Yeah, 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:51.080 so I remember once I jumped on, I was told 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:52.600 to go to mogad issue. And it was one of 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:54.439 those things that people don't say, well, how do you 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:56.320 get the mogod issue? Yes, you were told to get that. 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:58.800 You got there. So I wandered out to the airfield 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:03.440 and they I found an Irish fellow and it just 0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:09.200 happened to be Patrick's day and he was drinking a bit. 0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:12.960 Said I I'll get you to Modishu. So we went 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:16.639 by Rwanda. What I ever was doing in Rwanda, I'll 0:18:16.680 --> 0:18:18.800 never know. And then we went from there, so I 0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:20.840 didn't go off the plane, so we'd come from there. 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:23.640 We ended up Mogadisha and then I was they said, 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:25.560 I'll just wander over there and tell them who you 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:27.280 are and what you're for. And I did, and so 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:31.480 I ended up with the Psychological Operations Group for in 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:34.000 the seventh Marine Expeditionary Forts from America. 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:34.440 Yeah. 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:39.240 So we're at the stadium in in Mogadishu, and I 0:18:39.240 --> 0:18:42.040 thought Pakistan was on our sides, but they started to 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:44.200 shoot inwards to the stadium, not outwards. 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:49.240 Just they were hopeless. It would have been an interesting 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:49.720 time for you. 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:54.040 It was interesting, you know, and it was a good experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:56.240 So how long did you stay in the Army. 0:18:57.240 --> 0:18:59.800 I got out in ninety seven to join the police, 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:01.000 but day on as reserves. 0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:03.400 Okay. What rank were you when you left? 0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:04.560 Sergeant? 0:19:04.720 --> 0:19:10.760 Sergeant Okay, so good experience. What made you leave the Army? Well, 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:11.280 the career. 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:14.200 Yeah, I wish I'd stayed in the Army, to be honest, 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:16.720 But the issue with the Army was that it was 0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:20.400 a young man's game. And after it, Yeah, the physical 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:23.520 title was incredible. You can only carry you know, seventy 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:25.600 or sixty kilos on your back and dig holes to 0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:27.920 sleep in at nighttime for so long before you get 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:32.399 a bit tired. And every day is training, which is 0:19:32.400 --> 0:19:34.840 nothing wrong with that, but you're training for something that 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:37.600 may never occur, and when it does occur, it's a 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:39.399 bit of an anti climax, and therefore you think, well, 0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:40.960 if that's it, there's not much else. 0:19:41.280 --> 0:19:41.960 I'm not putting it in. 0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:45.880 Yeah, and I'd always wanted to join the police, So 0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:48.959 because I did a join. I did apply to New 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:52.760 South Wales as a cadet back in nineteen eighty two, right, 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:55.840