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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world. Today,

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Speaker 1: I had a chat with retired Queensland cop Dennis Martin

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Speaker 1: as a former detective. Dennis had a diverse career with

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Speaker 1: the police, where he worked on the Daniel Morkam case

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Speaker 1: helped track down pedophiles. Before he got into policing, he

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Speaker 1: grew up in the remote country town of Mare, where

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Speaker 1: there was a tough racial divide. When he was younger,

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Speaker 1: he joined the army as a soldier and then went

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Speaker 1: on to join the Queensland Police, where he spent the

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Speaker 1: next twenty years of his life. I never worked with Dennis,

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Speaker 1: but we've had lengthy conversations over the years after we're

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Speaker 1: both out of the police. Let's have a listen, Dennis Martin,

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Speaker 1: welcome to catch killers.

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Speaker 2: No problems, Thanks very much.

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Speaker 1: It's been a few years in the making getting you on.

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Speaker 1: I think we first started talking and communicating after I'd

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Speaker 1: left the cops and you were out of the cops.

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Speaker 2: That's great. Yeah, yeah, it has been some years.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. They slipped by it, don't they very quickly. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to ask you a big question up front. When

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Speaker 1: you look back, what's your reflections on your time in

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Speaker 1: the police.

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Speaker 2: Look, I think the reflection would be that it was

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Speaker 2: a good job. There was a lot of satisfaction. There

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Speaker 2: was a until you started to climb the rank structure,

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Speaker 2: and then you found out obviously there was some you know,

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Speaker 2: issues that you had to comply with if you were

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Speaker 2: to go any further, if you wanted to stay as

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Speaker 2: probably a constable. Yeah, I think everything was probably kosher

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Speaker 2: and if you didn't want to do anything that was

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Speaker 2: going to make anybody think adverse to you or make

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Speaker 2: any decisions that other people didn't want you to make,

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Speaker 2: you'd be quite happy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a bit of a compromise, and they have

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Speaker 1: the further up you go up up the corporate ladder,

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Speaker 1: there is a hierarchy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. The sooner you get to the the closer you

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Speaker 2: get to the point of the pyramid, the more scrutiny

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Speaker 2: you come under, and the more I guess you leave

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Speaker 2: yourself open for other people to have a go at you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I look at policing and I'm not sure, and

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about your army career. But operational

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Speaker 1: police and management police there two different streams. There were

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Speaker 1: people that I could respect in the police that were

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Speaker 1: good managers, but I didn't think they had the skills

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Speaker 1: or the experience as an operational police officer. But it

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Speaker 1: seems to get convoluted. As you climb up the top.

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Speaker 1: Someone rises because they might be a good operational police officer,

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Speaker 1: come management and they're not. They're better offers operational police

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Speaker 1: officers and managers. Then on the other side you have

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Speaker 1: these people who are good managers and they climb up

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Speaker 1: the corporate ladder or the hierarchy, and all of a sudden.

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Speaker 1: They think they're operational, but they haven't got the experience.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly right. Yes, you'll get some people that come

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Speaker 2: never leave the academy. Basically, they're like full time union students.

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Speaker 2: Stay there and then they may come out on the

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Speaker 2: road for a couple of years, and they're back is

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Speaker 2: teaching the academy. Then they'll go to a managerial position,

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Speaker 2: and then they're back on the road as an inspector

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Speaker 2: giving you operational advice. Yeah, they have got no idea,

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Speaker 2: absolutely no idea, and the advice they give you might

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Speaker 2: be legally sound, but it's not correct for that part

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Speaker 2: of the area of town you're in, if that makes sense.

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Speaker 2: You know, they've got no feeling of what the crims

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Speaker 2: are up to. They've got no desire to put a

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Speaker 2: criminal notice and maybe source him out for some information.

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Speaker 2: It's just there's the evidence. Why aren't you arresting him?

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Speaker 2: Why hasn't this been done? They've got no idea to

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Speaker 2: play the longer. Yeah, you know, and they are only

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Speaker 2: there for one short period of time anyway, to get

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Speaker 2: back behind a desk so they can go up to

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Speaker 2: superintendent and someone say forth.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a big and I can only speak

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Speaker 1: for New South Wales, but my observation of other state police,

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Speaker 1: possibly even the federal police. The way that people can

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Speaker 1: climb the rank so quickly, I think causes problems. I

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Speaker 1: looked at New South Wales and thought you could simplify

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Speaker 1: or make it a better structured police force if you

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Speaker 1: had to stay for a period of time on the rank,

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Speaker 1: like say you became a sergeant, maybe you had to

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Speaker 1: spend five to seven years as a sergeant before you

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Speaker 1: could rise to be an inspector. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Look, I don't disagree with that at all, and I

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Speaker 2: think that, you know, I tried to bring in something

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Speaker 2: at what they call a detective training school. You've had

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Speaker 2: some detective trainers there that were a detective sergeant, but

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Speaker 2: you know they've been there for five and seven and

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Speaker 2: eight years. And my suggestion was that, look, why don't

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Speaker 2: you know you use this as some sort of I guess,

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Speaker 2: a bit of training for the operational police officer. But

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Speaker 2: a rest period gave him off the road after say

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Speaker 2: ten years, give him two years there and then back

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Speaker 2: on the right, fresh of them up, freshing them up

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Speaker 2: and gives you up to date information and on road experience.

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Speaker 2: For the new detectives coming through. Yeah, you thought I'd

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Speaker 2: kill the mother. You can't suggest such things, absolutely not.

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Speaker 2: He's been here for ten years and you know he's

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Speaker 2: getting sized thirty eight in his trousers and wants to

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Speaker 2: have small doughnuts for lunch. And there leave him alone.

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Speaker 1: It's a strange world, strange world policing. But yeah, there's

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Speaker 1: good and bad, and there's good cops bad cops. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: your career and people, Yeah, whether you like it or not,

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Speaker 1: but there's a lot of your profile is extrinsically linked

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Speaker 1: to the Daniel Morkham case in that there was you're

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Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about it in detail later

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Speaker 1: on in the podcast, so that don't want to cover

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Speaker 1: off on it now. I want people to understand who

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Speaker 1: you are before we get into the detail. But people

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Speaker 1: remember Daniel Markham that I think it was. He was

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Speaker 1: thirteen years old two thousand and three, seventh of December

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Speaker 1: two thousand and three when he disappeared. It was a

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Speaker 1: horrendous situation and his parents campaigned for a long time

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Speaker 1: and it took I think eight years before Brett Peter

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Speaker 1: Cowen was finally arrested for Daniel's murder and convicted. You

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Speaker 1: actually spoke to Brett Cowen within weeks of Daniel's disappearance

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Speaker 1: and you at that point in time you formed the

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Speaker 1: view that he was should be the number one suspect

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Speaker 1: for the murder. That's greatky time, we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about that in depth because I think it's a very

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Speaker 1: interesting gives you an insight into policing and the robust

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Speaker 1: nature of policing, and there's a lot of pressure when

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Speaker 1: you're investigating crimes of that nature.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look there is a lot of pressure, but there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of pressure brought from both ends, both from

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Speaker 2: the families that want something completed and they want some

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Speaker 2: I guess resolution, and then you've got from the manage

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Speaker 2: and the management side of policing. You were saying, look,

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Speaker 2: we're not going to pay any overtime at the moment. Either,

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Speaker 2: do your own time, working your own time, So it

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Speaker 2: comes down from money. And then you've got pressure from

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Speaker 2: the operational management. We're saying we've got another murders just occurred.

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Speaker 2: You need to wrap this up, or we need to

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Speaker 2: not give you as many resources. It's just never ending

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Speaker 2: and people don't understand these competing priorities. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 2: and they think, well, what hasn't something happened? Yeah, probaty

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Speaker 2: only got one guy working on it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well so all those competing competing interest and we'll

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Speaker 1: break that down a little bit. But before we move

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Speaker 1: on and talk about you, we're just in. I've seen

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Speaker 1: you speak about the Markham case and the empathy that

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Speaker 1: you have for Daniel's parents family, about what they went

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Speaker 1: through and how tirelessly they worked Denise and Bruce to

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Speaker 1: get justice for their kids. So I think we need

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Speaker 1: to sort of pay some homage to them and the

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Speaker 1: brutality of the crime. It's one that captured the attention

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Speaker 1: of the nation, really didn't.

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Speaker 2: It did, And they were just the epitome of what

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Speaker 2: a family would be. They were shed somebody's grandmother. He

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Speaker 2: was a nice gentle fellow. They were a lovely family

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Speaker 2: and that's just the way they came across and they

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Speaker 2: were honest and open. There was nothing you could say

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Speaker 2: bad about them apart from just lovely people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it was a sad, sad case. Was your life.

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Speaker 1: It's been an interesting and diverse life. You grew up

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Speaker 1: in Maury, western Town in New South Wales, it's a

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Speaker 1: town that had a tough reputation. There was a bit

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Speaker 1: of a racial divide there between the Aboriginal community and

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Speaker 1: the white community. That's the perception that seems to come

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Speaker 1: from the town. There was a lot of issues there.

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Speaker 1: You grew up there as a young Aboriginal boy in

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Speaker 1: that world. Tell us your experiences of your childhood growing

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Speaker 1: up in Maury.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's a very robust little town, you know, and

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Speaker 2: I don't think it's ever changed. It's always been around

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Speaker 2: ten thousand people, ten thy five hundred, very much an

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Speaker 2: itinerant working town, and a lot of people would come

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Speaker 2: and do stick picking and cotton chipping and all of

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Speaker 2: those sort of things. You know, we lived what is

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Speaker 2: now well inside the town limits. But when we were there,

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Speaker 2: our house was on the outskirts and all it was

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Speaker 2: as soon as you walked out your door, you turned

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Speaker 2: left to go into scrubland and then you just get

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Speaker 2: big bribe bushes coming down the road, or if you

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Speaker 2: turn right, you go up to Killick store near the school.

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Speaker 2: And that's the way it was, and that was the town.

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Speaker 2: You know. There was never any I didn't see a

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Speaker 2: great deal of racism in my early years it was

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Speaker 2: later on when I realized what racism was. But apart

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Speaker 2: from that, whether you were playing black white Chinese, not

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Speaker 2: that there were many Chinese, but there was the Chinese

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Speaker 2: shopping down, so you might have seen them. That was

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Speaker 2: the only thing other than that they're all kids, and

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Speaker 2: that's what it was, you know. Yeah, it was rough tumble.

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Speaker 2: There was no shoes, There was no nothing to do

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Speaker 2: other than you go out and play in the fields. Really,

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Speaker 2: that's that's all there was.

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Speaker 1: Do you have good memories of your childhood?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I do. Growing up, my father was a grave

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Speaker 2: digger and that's all pick and shovel, So I remember

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Speaker 2: going with him to the cemetery on a lot of occasions,

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Speaker 2: helping backfill graves. And then he was also the senatory

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Speaker 2: cart so he'd run down through the back lanes early

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Speaker 2: in the hours and pick up the sanitary carts from

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Speaker 2: the toilets in the back. And so I jump on

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Speaker 2: the truck and go and help him tar out the

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Speaker 2: tin till we took in the van and washed them out.

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Speaker 2: So it was all of that sort of stuff, you know,

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Speaker 2: And that's just and there'd been nothing to go and

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Speaker 2: get a twenty two and go over and you get

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Speaker 2: some rabbits and bring them home and you know, skin

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Speaker 2: them and gut them and have some dinner that evening.

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Speaker 2: Or it was absolutely that's what we were allowed to do.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that was the life. Well, it gives a bit

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Speaker 1: of an insight and compared to life growing up in

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Speaker 1: the city, no wonder you turn out tough growing up

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Speaker 1: and having environment. And I supped it self sufficient too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, look, it's a funny story when you say that,

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Speaker 2: because years later my daughter, I can't remember how well,

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Speaker 2: she might have been about six or seven. It was

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Speaker 2: near Easter time and I didn't even give it a thought,

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Speaker 2: and I took her over into the paddocks and we

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Speaker 2: got some rabbits and he did shoot the yes, and

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Speaker 2: she's still from to this day he brings it up

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Speaker 2: that I killed Easter bunny. Tasted nice.

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Speaker 1: Your por chop will have to get there on the

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Speaker 1: on the podcast. So how long were you living in

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Speaker 1: Maur Did you join the army straight from Maur.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I joined, I didn't join. I I did

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Speaker 2: some work at the local RSL club and I was

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Speaker 2: sitting there one day after cleaning the toilets and our

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Speaker 2: little things that used to do at the club. And

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Speaker 2: in came the recruitings ergeant from the army, so they

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Speaker 2: were in town. So I went and had a chat

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Speaker 2: and he goes, look, no one joins the army for

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Speaker 2: three years, mate, He said, you always do it for

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Speaker 2: six wink wink. I didn't know.

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Speaker 1: So in I went and signature before it walked out.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely yeah, So in I went and that was that

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Speaker 2: was that, And I didn't come out until ninety seven

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Speaker 2: and then stayed in as a reservist after that.

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Speaker 1: How old were you when you joined the eighteen and

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Speaker 1: where'd you do your basic training?

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Speaker 2: Basic training was at one RTP kopooka Atana wagga yea.

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Speaker 2: I still clearly remember. I was in Charlie Company, twenty

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Speaker 2: four Patoon and it was a corporate kirk out and

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Speaker 2: I still remember him. Yeah, just it looked very similar

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Speaker 2: to yourself.

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Speaker 1: My son went through the basic training down there, and

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Speaker 1: I remember, I call it the best bit of par

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Speaker 1: anything I did, because I sent him in as a

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Speaker 1: kidney came out of man. But it really I saw

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Speaker 1: the difference. And it was what three four months or

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Speaker 1: whatever the training was, but you saw the kids get

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Speaker 1: on the bus and be driven there and by the

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Speaker 1: time they're passing out they were completely different human boots.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely love you know. I was pretty straight up and

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Speaker 2: down coming from Mari. I thought, yep, jumped on the

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Speaker 2: bus here in Sydney because so sorry, I got recruited

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Speaker 2: and you had to fly from. Actually, I think we've

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Speaker 2: got to train over and not train from. There's only

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Speaker 2: one train every couple of days from Mari to Sydney,

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Speaker 2: and then had to make our way to the recruiting

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Speaker 2: section and then they got us on a bus from

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Speaker 2: here to Wagga. But during the bus trip they searched

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Speaker 2: you took anything off of your like knives or anything

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Speaker 2: that you shouldn't have had got you off for the bus.

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Speaker 2: At the end of the day, lined up all your gear,

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Speaker 2: took it away next top with the barbershop, no hair left.

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Speaker 2: I was just that's the way it was.

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Speaker 1: I remember before my son joined though, I was saying,

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Speaker 1: you probably want to do some training, get some training,

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Speaker 1: get some fitness up, and that I'd go for a

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Speaker 1: run with him in the morning and do a little

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Speaker 1: bit and he'd be laying there, laying on the lands.

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Speaker 1: I think you have no idea, You have no idea

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Speaker 1: what's about to happen to you. But anyway, it's an experience.

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Speaker 1: So where'd you go and what was your role after

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Speaker 1: basic training?

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Speaker 2: Well, after that, I went to what they called, I

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Speaker 2: guess initial employment training down at Pucketpanyol. I went down

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Speaker 2: there for another few months and then I ended up

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Speaker 2: here at Mossman at thirty Terminal Squadron. So I stayed

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Speaker 2: there for a couple of years, and then I went

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Speaker 2: to Uburudonga and then swapped over to Intelligence Corps and

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Speaker 2: I went from there to One INC Company at in Brisbane.

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Speaker 2: Whilst there at One INC Company did tours of Somalia

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Speaker 2: and they came an interesting Yeah, that was interesting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I was caught up there with a few things that

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Speaker 2: you know, yeah, I guess being investigated for war crimes

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Speaker 2: and all that sort of stuff when we came back.

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Speaker 2: And that continued right throught about two thousand and nine.

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Speaker 2: They just kept sniping from the sidelines and found out

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Speaker 2: there was nothing there. And that's the way it was

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Speaker 2: obviously until people started coming back from Afghanistan and Iraq

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Speaker 2: and they thought we've got some new people there we

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Speaker 2: can investigate, so turned the long.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they left alone on there what's the role I

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Speaker 1: think the people who have been listening to the podcasts

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Speaker 1: long enough gather sense of what the role of an

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Speaker 1: intel officer is in the cops. What's the role of

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Speaker 1: a military intel officer?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, look, a military intel also has a lot

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Speaker 2: of hats they can wear, and you know the psychological operations,

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Speaker 2: So on which turn you would go in and try

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Speaker 2: to work out how you're going to I guess change

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Speaker 2: the hearts and mind to the people. You might be

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Speaker 2: doing air drops of that sort of stuff, And I

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Speaker 2: remember quite clearly and in Somalia the French Foreign Legion

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Speaker 2: tried similar But what they did was, you know, drop

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Speaker 2: things from the helicopters and say, look, come in and

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Speaker 2: give us your weapons. And they were waiting for them

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Speaker 2: as were coming with the weapons. They took them as

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Speaker 2: combatants and just shot them dead. Deal with the French

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Speaker 2: Foreign Lesion.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well that's yeah, we're not formed for that point.

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Speaker 2: So then we have counterintelligence. Obviously you're looking at owned

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Speaker 2: forces counter intelligence and then counter intelligence on the enemy.

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Speaker 2: Then we have not eye ups, imagery, endless, linguist endless,

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Speaker 2: and one analyss one intelligence operator can do the whole lot.

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Speaker 2: So it was quite diverse. I thought, very good. I

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Speaker 2: do remember clearly talking to an old general from the division,

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Speaker 2: and he never spoke to obviously enlisted people like me

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Speaker 2: very often. But I ended up being his intelligence sergeant

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Speaker 2: and he said, look, I want ninety nine percent accuracy

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Speaker 2: from here. If you're not, I'll get somebody else in tomorrow.

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Speaker 2: So there was a lot of work to try and

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Speaker 2: make sure that he got the accurate information.

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Speaker 1: Well, this is an important role, isn't it. Like when

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Speaker 1: you've just job description there of what you're covering. If

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Speaker 1: you if you got it wrong, you could you could

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Speaker 1: create a disaster literally.

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Speaker 2: Look absolutely yeah. You know, at the end of the day,

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Speaker 2: if you give them false information to act on that information,

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Speaker 2: you know, you've got other people's lives in your hands.

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Speaker 2: But I was actually very lucky that I went through

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Speaker 2: that period of time that the intelligence operators went out

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Speaker 2: beyond the field, right, and you know we're in different

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Speaker 2: sort of clothes and trying to gain sources and get

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Speaker 2: information like that, right, right, So that was it was

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Speaker 2: very interesting.

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Speaker 1: So I had more control of the information that came in,

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Speaker 1: and you could make your assessments and a better way

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Speaker 1: to verify based on that. What were the dramas in

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Speaker 1: Somalia at the time when you were over there, What

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Speaker 1: was going on?

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Speaker 2: It was just all they call it clans, but that

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Speaker 2: really just tribes or whatever you want to call it.

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Speaker 2: They were just shooting, killing each other and the whole

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Speaker 2: country was just a mess. It was run by a

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Speaker 2: couple of warlords, you know. War's army was one in

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Speaker 2: around the Bi Dull area. The other was a deed

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Speaker 2: was the I think the main one from Mogadishu. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so I remember once I jumped on, I was told

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Speaker 2: to go to mogad issue. And it was one of

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Speaker 2: those things that people don't say, well, how do you

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Speaker 2: get the mogod issue? Yes, you were told to get that.

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Speaker 2: You got there. So I wandered out to the airfield

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Speaker 2: and they I found an Irish fellow and it just

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Speaker 2: happened to be Patrick's day and he was drinking a bit.

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Speaker 2: Said I I'll get you to Modishu. So we went

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Speaker 2: by Rwanda. What I ever was doing in Rwanda, I'll

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Speaker 2: never know. And then we went from there, so I

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Speaker 2: didn't go off the plane, so we'd come from there.

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Speaker 2: We ended up Mogadisha and then I was they said,

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Speaker 2: I'll just wander over there and tell them who you

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Speaker 2: are and what you're for. And I did, and so

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Speaker 2: I ended up with the Psychological Operations Group for in

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Speaker 2: the seventh Marine Expeditionary Forts from America.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So we're at the stadium in in Mogadishu, and I

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Speaker 2: thought Pakistan was on our sides, but they started to

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Speaker 2: shoot inwards to the stadium, not outwards.

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Speaker 1: Just they were hopeless. It would have been an interesting

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Speaker 1: time for you.

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Speaker 2: It was interesting, you know, and it was a good experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: So how long did you stay in the Army.

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Speaker 2: I got out in ninety seven to join the police,

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Speaker 2: but day on as reserves.

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Speaker 1: Okay. What rank were you when you left?

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Speaker 2: Sergeant?

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Speaker 1: Sergeant Okay, so good experience. What made you leave the Army? Well,

385
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Speaker 1: the career.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I wish I'd stayed in the Army, to be honest,

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Speaker 2: But the issue with the Army was that it was

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Speaker 2: a young man's game. And after it, Yeah, the physical

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Speaker 2: title was incredible. You can only carry you know, seventy

390
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Speaker 2: or sixty kilos on your back and dig holes to

391
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Speaker 2: sleep in at nighttime for so long before you get

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Speaker 2: a bit tired. And every day is training, which is

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Speaker 2: nothing wrong with that, but you're training for something that

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Speaker 2: may never occur, and when it does occur, it's a

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Speaker 2: bit of an anti climax, and therefore you think, well,

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Speaker 2: if that's it, there's not much else.

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Speaker 1: I'm not putting it in.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'd always wanted to join the police, So

399
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Speaker 2: because I did a join. I did apply to New

400
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Speaker 2: South Wales as a cadet back in nineteen eighty two, right,

401
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Speaker 2: but for one reason or another I didn't have the

402
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Speaker 2: education or something they said, coming from Maria High School

403
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Speaker 2: with great grades seas I thought to be fair.

404
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Speaker 1: Yeah.

405
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Speaker 2: So other than that, no, So that's when I applied

406
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Speaker 2: to join the Queensland place.

407
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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, policing. So New South Wales didn't accept you. No,

408
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Speaker 1: okay Queensland may I'm not sure if you made the

409
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Speaker 1: right choice or not, but okay with Queensland. So when

410
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Speaker 1: did you join the Queensland Police?

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Speaker 2: At ninety seven yea, I joined the Queensland Police. I

412
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Speaker 2: went from there to Goodner, which is a tough little

413
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Speaker 2: area and it encompassed quite a large area. So I

414
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Speaker 2: did some a couple of years there in uniform.

415
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Speaker 1: Yeah. Whereabouts is Goodnight, Goodner?

416
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Speaker 2: Is in the western suburbs of Brisbane out towards Ipswich Yep.

417
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Speaker 2: Still a bit of a rough area. It really are

418
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Speaker 2: Pauline Hanson stomping grounds, but so it was a bit

419
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Speaker 2: of a tough area. It was a very isolated area.

420
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Speaker 2: I know, it was still within the confines of a CBD,

421
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Speaker 2: but the amount of police we would have maybe two

422
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Speaker 2: overnight for a really really large area, pretty as big

423
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Speaker 2: as you know, the Northern Beaches, you know, you'd have

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Speaker 2: two coppers overnight and that was it. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, how did you find going into policing after the army?

426
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Speaker 1: Did you think it was beneficial for you the background

427
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Speaker 1: that you had had in the army.

428
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Speaker 2: I absolutely think that. I've seen a lot of people

429
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Speaker 2: come from military, particularly army two police. I see very

430
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Speaker 2: few police going back towards military, right, So my only

431
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Speaker 2: thought in my mind was, well, it's got to be better, yeah,

432
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Speaker 2: because we aren't coming back. Yeah, not that it's a backward,

433
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Speaker 2: but I'm just saying they're not going transferring from there

434
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Speaker 2: to military. So they've seen the light and so they're staying.

435
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Speaker 1: There was always something about the military guys when they

436
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:47,679
Speaker 1: came across to the police and you saw quite a

437
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,040
Speaker 1: few that it seems to be like a natural progression,

438
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 1: but they carry themselves a little bit different from from

439
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,960
Speaker 1: other police and that you always felt like when there

440
00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,359
Speaker 1: was a lot of pressure on that was good. Having

441
00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,320
Speaker 1: the bloat that's come from now blake, oral woman, that's

442
00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:07,080
Speaker 1: come from the army, that okay, well they'll they'll crack

443
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 1: under the pressure of it.

444
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think, you know, with that came a

445
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:14,720
Speaker 2: lot of calculation from them. They knew you know that,

446
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,120
Speaker 2: or they knew how to use resources a little bit better,

447
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,879
Speaker 2: they knew how to communicate a bit better. They worked

448
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 2: together well, they worked as a team, you know. And

449
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 2: I just just thought that they it was a good

450
00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:29,640
Speaker 2: natural progression anyway, and they did a good job.

451
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,359
Speaker 1: How did you find going like you retired in the

452
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,639
Speaker 1: army but as a sergeant and you've moved up up

453
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 1: the rank structure, How did you find going from the

454
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,119
Speaker 1: army where you're you're running the show to an extent,

455
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,840
Speaker 1: then joining the police and starting right at the bottom again,

456
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:46,120
Speaker 1: how did you find that?

457
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 2: I thought it was very difficult. Yeah, really I did,

458
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,239
Speaker 2: because I think coming across at the rank level I

459
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,159
Speaker 2: was from the army, you had control of quite a

460
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,720
Speaker 2: lot and a lot of people. You know directly, you know,

461
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,000
Speaker 2: thirty odd people underneath you, and then you come in

462
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:06,119
Speaker 2: there and you've got a senior Connie, you're a constable.

463
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 2: They're probably about twenty three years of age, little live

464
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:15,080
Speaker 2: experience on their own. I just found it difficult, you

465
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 2: know what I mean, particularly if you had a bit

466
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:19,919
Speaker 2: of a bum of one of them that thought they

467
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 2: were a lot better than what they really were. But look,

468
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:24,520
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, I think we got

469
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 2: it well on. I hopefully provided some advice and they

470
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:28,840
Speaker 2: gave me something as well.

471
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 1: Well. The type of person you're talking about, the sensible

472
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:34,679
Speaker 1: way and the good type of leadership, I think in

473
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,399
Speaker 1: that situation is that if you've got someone under you

474
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 1: that's got more experience or who knows something a little

475
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 1: bit more that than you, they use them, use you

476
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 1: use your experience. What would you do here? What would

477
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 1: you do here? Dennis? That type of thing. But I

478
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,800
Speaker 1: think there's a fear and it's not just policing, but

479
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,160
Speaker 1: there's a fear that if you don't know and you're

480
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,439
Speaker 1: in the position of leadership, you've just got to carry on.

481
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 1: And I see them quite often over compensate, like make

482
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 1: decisions because I'm the boss. I'm going to tell you

483
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:06,400
Speaker 1: what to do, even though they haven't got the experience.

484
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 1: But they've got a team of people underneath them that could, Yeah,

485
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:11,880
Speaker 1: they could ask for some advice. Yeah.

486
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 2: And look, and I did find that quite a bit too,

487
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 2: you know, that they weren't prepared to take advice. Yeah,

488
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 2: because it looked weak.

489
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:17,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

490
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, And obviously a lot of people and I didn't

491
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 2: realize as particularly in the Queensland place. I don't know

492
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,159
Speaker 2: what was like in the New South Wales. But they

493
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,479
Speaker 2: were looking for comments and they said to me, make

494
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 2: sure you keep comments. And I said, what do I

495
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 2: want to keep comments for? I said, someone commidentates to

496
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 2: me every day. And what they mean is that if

497
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 2: you turned around and said, oh look, Denners, you've done

498
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 2: a great job today, thank you very much. Your good

499
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 2: time management. It's all just made up so that you

500
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,199
Speaker 2: can keep your email put on your resume for a promotion. Yeah,

501
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 2: you know, mister Geel detectives Google and said that I

502
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:51,880
Speaker 2: was a good operator and I did good time management.

503
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:56,199
Speaker 2: Hence KSC one for the resume, and that's all they

504
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:56,639
Speaker 2: were doing.

505
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: Look, we could talk about this all day, about that

506
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:06,360
Speaker 1: type of person in policing that's just looking for Oh

507
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,639
Speaker 1: if I do this, I'll look good on my next application.

508
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 1: There in lies the problem with the leadership in the police.

509
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 1: I think in that you should just be concentrated on

510
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 1: doing your work and then the leadership will flow organically

511
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 1: from that, or that's how it should, but it certainly

512
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:25,639
Speaker 1: certainly doesn't. What made you what, first of all, as

513
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,439
Speaker 1: a policeman, not a young policeman. So you've gone in

514
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 1: there with life experiences, but I don't know about you.

515
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,679
Speaker 1: I made a lot of mistakes when you're first in

516
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 1: the cops because it's a new world and that is

517
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 1: there anything that you did and you look back and

518
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,440
Speaker 1: go to Jesus, what was I thinking? Yeah?

519
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:43,639
Speaker 2: There was, and there's still there, still would have been

520
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 2: should have been in there? Yeah, yeah, Look I remember

521
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,640
Speaker 2: clearly we were a little bit I guess, a bit

522
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 2: of Alerican. Yeah, that's a little bit of my attitude.

523
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,679
Speaker 2: Unfortunately a lot of people don't dislike it. But we

524
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 2: had an old inspector and I know this's got nothing

525
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 2: to do with cream, but it's something to do with

526
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 2: our alaric. Yeah, and he was just a funny, funny fellow,

527
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,640
Speaker 2: but a nice fellow. And so we waited until he

528
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 2: left the evening. We're on nightwab and so he sneaked

529
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 2: in his office and deleted, sorry, shredded all his introy

530
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:17,479
Speaker 2: And so he came in and he thought, oh this

531
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 2: is great, someone's done my work and sat back. And

532
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:22,719
Speaker 2: the next day about the day later there superintendent got

533
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 2: stuck into him. You know, yeah, don't look at us there.

534
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 2: We have none to do with it.

535
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:30,639
Speaker 1: You've got a little bit of laugh. I don't know.

536
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,679
Speaker 1: I can't. We can't encourage that. Don't try that in

537
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,199
Speaker 1: the place. Some mar chaoso goes in there, and I

538
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe it's a way of balancing out that

539
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 1: you can go from that to attending a car accident

540
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 1: where family's been killed. So it's sort of leaving a

541
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:46,680
Speaker 1: little bit of steam off. I don't think it's a

542
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:47,159
Speaker 1: bad thing.

543
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I think it's good.

544
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. What about playing clothes? What what drew you to

545
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 1: working in detectives?

546
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,159
Speaker 2: Well, look where it really came from. I was in

547
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,879
Speaker 2: Queens and they give out a bull It's like an

548
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,680
Speaker 2: advertisement of jobs every week I think it was, or

549
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 2: maybe every fortnight. I think it was every week, and

550
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 2: you know, if you sort things. And I saw the

551
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:13,639
Speaker 2: undercover course come through and I thought, that really suits

552
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 2: to what I used to do. I'll give it a go.

553
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 2: So I went through the recruiting process for that and

554
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 2: the betting process and got accepted. So I remember handing no,

555
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:33,159
Speaker 2: I didn't. I jogged home that afternoon with my pistol

556
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 2: in my back back because I had to take it

557
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 2: to the new unit, being the COVID unit, And I've

558
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 2: got instructions to get on the train at Goodna, get

559
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 2: off at Rama Street, get on a train to wooll

560
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 2: and Gabba. Somebody be there to pick me up, and

561
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 2: then they were half an hour later. Then they took

562
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 2: me to a warehouse and that was where I would

563
00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,400
Speaker 2: be stationed for the period of time I was an undercover.

564
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 2: And then you came home a day or so later

565
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 2: in an old bombed up car, a new identity and

566
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 2: you and you sat at home until they called you

567
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 2: for a job.

568
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:11,920
Speaker 1: Okay, so it wasn't part time. It was it was

569
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 1: full time, full time undercover years working out of the

570
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 1: covert premises and new identification and all that that would

571
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 1: have been been exciting times.

572
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was, you know, and the process of how

573
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,120
Speaker 2: they all these identities came about and all the backstop

574
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 2: that goes with it. It's a lot more work than

575
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 2: what people think, you know, and they obviously later on

576
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 2: I became involved in that as a controller, But that's

577
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 2: down the track.

578
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, so what tell me about your first without

579
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 1: giving away methodology, but you would have found yourself in

580
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 1: some interesting situations as undercover. Yeah.

581
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 2: Look, a majority of the cases were for drugs, yep.

582
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 2: And it's not just small time drugies of course. Obviously

583
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 2: we get inserted through sources, and human sources much about

584
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 2: much must vouch for you, because you might't go any

585
00:28:58,560 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 2: further if you don't have anyone to vouch for you.

586
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 2: Those outlook Modell gangs or or big corporate drugs gangs.

587
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 2: You know, you need somebody to say I've known them

588
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 2: for a lot of years and this is how I've

589
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 2: known them. You can trust them. Basically, that's how it works,

590
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 2: and you're getting inserted and then we try to ditch

591
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 2: that source a little bit further down to track with.

592
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 2: Most sources are unreliable drugs themselves, or you know what

593
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 2: they're in for, whether they're in it for some motivation

594
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 2: that doesn't really reflect all their friends going down. So

595
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 2: then you work your way up into the into the group,

596
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 2: and everything you do is you're recorded in one way

597
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 2: or another. And once you do a buy, you've got

598
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 2: to meet up with your control I hand the drugs

599
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 2: over and then continue on. But it's also very difficult

600
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 2: to have that, you know, I guess try to portray

601
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 2: to the gang that you know you're buying that to

602
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 2: sell it to somebody else. Because you're in a gang,

603
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 2: they're trying to make money. You've got to give money.

604
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 2: You can't just be the buyer all the time. So

605
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 2: it's a big game. It really is a big game.

606
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: It's a complicated game, and there's so many moving parts

607
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:06,959
Speaker 1: and it takes a lot of planning. So I can

608
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 1: understand from the intel background in the military and working

609
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: in places like Somalia that it would all these moving

610
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 1: parts in your head and you'd have to think, think

611
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 1: on your feet.

612
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, And look, I think I was very lucky back

613
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 2: then because the technology wasn't around when I say that

614
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 2: is and I don't do it at all, but you know, Facebook, Instagram,

615
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 2: all those sort of things.

616
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 1: It's hard to build a legend or a profile, isn't it.

617
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it doesn't take long for the crooked to

618
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 2: just jump on. I'll go and have a talk and

619
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 2: they do face recognition. Now take a picture and I'll

620
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 2: put it on through your Google app and it'll say, oh,

621
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 2: Dennis here, he is here.

622
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 1: What's going on before?

623
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 2: Exactly? Yeah, So it's not hard. So I was pretty

624
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 2: lucky really that I was around that period where there

625
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 2: was very limited social media.

626
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, what was the saying that you're undercover persona? What

627
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: what sort of roles did you play?

628
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 2: The first one I played was a glazier, So I

629
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 2: was running a glazier business. Yeah, and that was how

630
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 2: I could get my people that I could sell the

631
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 2: drugs to just go into the houses and whatnot and

632
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 2: pull up on the side of the road, so they'd

633
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 2: give you a little band with glazyer written aside and

634
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 2: all that sort of stuff and a phone number on

635
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 2: the side. But go to another I'll bust a detective

636
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 2: sergeant or detective senior Connie somewhere that would answer the phone.

637
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 2: And he did all this phone numbers, ringing Bill's glaziers.

638
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 2: Next one I need to answer it to you know Tom's.

639
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 1: Pub like I look at I've seen like undercover guys

640
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: and girls. But even when you're running a couple of

641
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 1: jobs and you've got a couple of phones going on,

642
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: you've got to be switched on the whole time, isn't

643
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 1: it Absolutely it's high high pressure. Yeah.

644
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, Look when I end up doing controlling, I would

645
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 2: stick little stick at notes on each phone. Yeah, because

646
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 2: you don't want to ring answer the wrong phone to

647
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 2: do a different name.

648
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 1: You know, it makes it hard. Was it conducive to

649
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: having a life outside or did you have to fully

650
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 1: commit to that lifestyle?

651
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 2: No, fully committed. You have to, and you very limited

652
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 2: time at home, especially with the young boundy. You don't

653
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 2: get home, yeah, you know, and you have to do

654
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 2: a lot of when you do come home. Yeah, you know,

655
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 2: you really have to do a lot of surveillance, combative surveillance,

656
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 2: making sure you probably go about twenty thirty forty k's

657
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 2: out of your way just to get home. Yeah, you know,

658
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 2: make sure no one's following you and all that sort

659
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 2: of stuff. So a lot of times you've got police

660
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 2: surveillance following you as well.

661
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 1: As well, because they haven't you haven't been declared to

662
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,719
Speaker 1: place that they've got someone in the exactly.

663
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

664
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, any tricky situations you found yourself in.

665
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 2: Oh, look, I think there's always tricky situations. You know.

666
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 2: One funny one that I thought I just couldn't do

667
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 2: was it was going to a nightclub. And it was

668
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 2: way back when our tape recordings we were wearing weren't

669
00:32:57,840 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 2: as COVID as they are today.

670
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 1: A strap in the brick ground, yes it.

671
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 2: Was, and you had to watch your watch all the time,

672
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 2: every thirty minutes. The little C ninety or C sixty

673
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 2: I think that were the tapes would swap and go overside.

674
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 2: So here's picting and I think, oh, this is not

675
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 2: good in a quiet area, you know, especially to say

676
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 2: at midnight when you're trying to do a deal in

677
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 2: a park. I think they'll know you've got a tape on.

678
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 2: So that was hard to get around. But then so

679
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 2: we want you to go. They would give you know,

680
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 2: some some agencies. I think this was for the federal police.

681
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 2: There was a new drug on the Gold Coast and

682
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 2: I think it was ice at that time, and they said,

683
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 2: we want to want you to see if we get

684
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 2: us a sample of ice and we'll see the purity

685
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 2: and we'll try and find out, you know, if it's

686
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 2: coming from the same source. And I said, well, you know,

687
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 2: wearing tapes won't work in a nightclub because you just

688
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 2: won't hear me and you won't hear the people. Oh video,

689
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 2: I said, well, how are we going to get a video?

690
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 2: So I am not joking. I am. They gave me

691
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 2: a great tool peak hat that you're aware if you're

692
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 2: running side. There was a little tape record about it's

693
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 2: because I'll see ninety that you wear around him when

694
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 2: you go running. Yeah, so I said, no, it's not

695
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 2: gonna work. I forget it, not doing it.

696
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 1: It has has improved. I remember I had an informant.

697
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 1: I'm sending him into bikis and we had the best

698
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: equipment available. And we're not talking methodology because everyone knows

699
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,919
Speaker 1: is completely trained. But it was summer and I swear

700
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 1: to god, that was the size of half a brick

701
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 1: and we're taping it around his chest, going now you'll

702
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 1: be right mate, and he's looking at me going, are

703
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 1: you fucking kidding? You want me to walking with this?

704
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 1: And he looked deformed by the time we put it on.

705
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 1: So yeah, it was. It was a different, different world,

706
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:42,360
Speaker 1: wasn't it.

707
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 2: And it doesn't matter how good you are, you cannot

708
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 2: walk into a situation like that feel threatened for your

709
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,319
Speaker 2: life because they do. They'll kill you if they Yeah,

710
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 2: if they catch you, Yeah, knowing you've got that on

711
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 2: it and knowing somebody could see if they closely looked

712
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 2: at you, and you can't move because it takes a

713
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 2: hair off your chest.

714
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:01,359
Speaker 1: And this is just not on the How about when

715
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,799
Speaker 1: you work, I'm not sure how deep you went under

716
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 1: with different jobs, So I'm sure you made associations and

717
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 1: friendships for on the surface with people that we're probably

718
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 1: going to bring down. How'd you feel with that?

719
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 2: Well, look, I had a really unusual time on the

720
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 2: last job, and it was I ended up in a

721
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 2: high rise on the Gold Coast. They put a contract

722
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,319
Speaker 2: on me after they found out I was undercover. Yes,

723
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 2: we did a bio bus scenario type thing in the

724
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 2: end and he was sitting there and he had a

725
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:35,360
Speaker 2: gun on his lap and he said, I wears the

726
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,240
Speaker 2: two hundred thousand dollars. They wouldn't give me two hundred

727
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 2: thousand dollars. Yeah, they said, he's twenty thousand fluffed up

728
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 2: to make look two or two hundred, and I thinking, ah, God,

729
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 2: here we go again. Yeah, well it sort of didn't.

730
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 2: Sort of didn't. When I showed the bum bag I

731
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 2: still wear one today, opened the bum bag up, he goes, oh,

732
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:53,359
Speaker 2: that's good. He said, the drugs are in the safe.

733
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:54,839
Speaker 2: He said, you're lucky you bought the money. He said,

734
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:56,279
Speaker 2: I was going to kill you anyway and take the money.

735
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 2: So and of course my only tracking device then was

736
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,359
Speaker 2: a mobile phone. Didn't work going up in the lift,

737
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 2: so my control was down in the flour of this building,

738
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 2: and so are outside and they couldn't hear me. So

739
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 2: I talked my way out of the room and said, look,

740
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 2: I'll go back down. I've got something in my car.

741
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 2: I want to come back up and show you. All right,

742
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 2: all right, So I straight out and just told them

743
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 2: you better go up there quick.

744
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, get back up there. Yeah.

745
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 2: Yeah.

746
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 1: But that's yeah, a lot of pressure. You obviously had

747
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:30,320
Speaker 1: the capability of handling that pressure that you put. Some

748
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 1: people in that situation, they'd be shaking and yeah, couldn't

749
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 1: go through it. Is it something in your makeup, or

750
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 1: it's something you trained for, or.

751
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 2: I think it's partly a bit of both. I think

752
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 2: makeup is a little bit. You wouldn't apply for it

753
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 2: if you didn't think you could do something. But the

754
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 2: training is very very good. The training is very good.

755
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 2: The scenarios within the training is very good, very realistic,

756
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 2: and I would think that even now, the better the

757
00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 2: resources are, the better the equipment you use, confidence you

758
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:02,919
Speaker 2: will get. Yeah, yeah, you've got to be a little

759
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 2: bit I think extrovert.

760
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, you've got to be able to play that

761
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: role too. I've had I've had jobs in the past

762
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 1: where it just wasn't the right right fit I had

763
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 1: and I'm not having a go at them. It was

764
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,839
Speaker 1: quite funny, but I needed someone playing a gay guy

765
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 1: to spend some time with this person, not think just

766
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 1: out in public, spend some time. And so the UC's

767
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 1: came in and this is a long time ago, so

768
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 1: I'm not telling tales out of the school. They've come

769
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:33,439
Speaker 1: in and there, you know, he'd be a good bike,

770
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:35,919
Speaker 1: he he'd be good at this that. Yeah, they came

771
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,320
Speaker 1: in the tough guy persona, and we wanted completely opposite.

772
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:43,359
Speaker 1: We wanted an uber gay guy to play this, play

773
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 1: the role that we needed. And I still remember the

774
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:47,839
Speaker 1: look on their face when we're explaining what we're needed

775
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 1: with we can't do that. And one of the blokes

776
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,359
Speaker 1: sitting in there, big tough dude with his beard, I reckon,

777
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,360
Speaker 1: if we just trim that beard up and do the

778
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 1: hair up a little bit, we can get you in there.

779
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:00,840
Speaker 1: And yeah, they were mortified. I thought of it, playing

780
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 1: that they were right for the tough guys, but not

781
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 1: playing the uber gay guy.

782
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. The problem I found that with that though, was

783
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 2: you know, the tougher, the betrayal you gave. Yeah, the

784
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 2: tougher the response they would give you the crims and

785
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 2: they expected from you.

786
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know.

787
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 2: And that was another issue I found, particularly being in controller.

788
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, well, don't it. We'll send you in. That

789
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:26,800
Speaker 2: would be my part, maybe your part, mate, but I

790
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 2: think I might ask you to do something that you

791
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 2: cannot do.

792
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 1: That's so that's that's a good point because I've had

793
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:36,959
Speaker 1: people in and not ucs but community sources, so member

794
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,759
Speaker 1: of the public in there, and tough guys, and they

795
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 1: getting close to what we're looking at, and then they

796
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 1: get called out and they're getting a call they want

797
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 1: me to bash this bloke and blah blah, blah, and

798
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 1: you get called in situations like that, So I see

799
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 1: where you're coming from that point.

800
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,320
Speaker 2: Knowing that they can't commit an illegality, yeah, yeah, you

801
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:57,880
Speaker 2: know as such like that. Yeah, they can commit illegality

802
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:00,400
Speaker 2: is a sanctioned but if it's not sanctioned, you'll go

803
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 2: down as quick as what they were. Just don't put

804
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 2: your orb in that situation where you're going to be

805
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 2: called upon to do it.

806
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 1: But it's I think it must be one of the

807
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,800
Speaker 1: most emotionally taxing part of policing. And we've had a

808
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:15,880
Speaker 1: few people that Keith Banks you might have known, know

809
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 1: he did you see I think sort of a decade

810
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 1: or so before you were doing it up in Queensland

811
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,319
Speaker 1: and that was rough and ready stages. But we also

812
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 1: had Joe Pistoni, the real Donnie Brasco on the podcast

813
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:32,320
Speaker 1: Going under Covering the Mafia, and what a story, what

814
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,239
Speaker 1: a person. But he just he didn't come across as

815
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:39,239
Speaker 1: a tough guy. He just he was obviously tough physically

816
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 1: and emotionally, but he didn't project that image and he

817
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 1: managed to stay in the mafia for that long. And

818
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 1: Michael France is the mafia dude, I know him and

819
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 1: him and Jail got a lot of respect for each other.

820
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 1: That's funny, isn't it how it plays out? Yeah.

821
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, the best bit of advice I ever got,

822
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 2: I think, was for on a controller at that time

823
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 2: when I was undercover. She said, don't be nice to

824
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 2: any of the women in the group. She said, no

825
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:09,399
Speaker 2: one's ever nice to them. She said. If they're nice,

826
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,399
Speaker 2: they like you. Doesn't matter what you look like. They said,

827
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 2: you know, if you treat them well.

828
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 1: So if you're going into a group where all the tough,

829
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 1: bad guys don't treat their women really well when you

830
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:21,800
Speaker 1: come in and hi, mam or yeah.

831
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, don't treat them nice, he said, treat them

832
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 2: as rough as they do. And he said, you know,

833
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:27,839
Speaker 2: she said, and you'll get on well. But if you don't,

834
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 2: she said, they will either pick you or they'll know

835
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:32,799
Speaker 2: there's something different about you, because that's not how they

836
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:33,360
Speaker 2: get treated.

837
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 1: Okay, that's interesting, fair call.

838
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 2: I remember that all the time.

839
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. The little snippets like that come come with the experience.

840
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:42,800
Speaker 1: When did you start working on argus?

841
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 2: I went straight from What they do is they do

842
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 2: a retegration program for COBT so that when you come out.

843
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 2: I'll bring it back into the bring it back into

844
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 2: the real world. In the first couple of days or

845
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 2: first couple of weeks is as a crime stopper. So

846
00:40:57,800 --> 00:40:59,320
Speaker 2: you can wear a uniform because you'd never want a

847
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:01,720
Speaker 2: uniform before. Right, they get you back to wearing uniform.

848
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 1: That's interesting. Let's just wind the wind it back a

849
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 1: bit before we get onto argus. So I hadn't even

850
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 1: thought of that. So you've been in there for years,

851
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 1: you're hanging out and playing, playing a role, and then

852
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 1: it's not like, okay, well you're transferred here and the

853
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:17,400
Speaker 1: next day you walk in and put on the uniform.

854
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 1: It would be you'd have to get decompressed.

855
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 2: Well they do. And there was a lady, a psychiatrist,

856
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 2: and she brought me in for psychological interviewing and she goes,

857
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:33,400
Speaker 2: I do hear? She said, you've got an anger issued

858
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,279
Speaker 2: in it. So I kicked the table and said, who

859
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:37,879
Speaker 2: fucking told you that? And I should never have done

860
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 2: that because I was only joke. And you go, oh no,

861
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 2: she said, people the joke really mean. I said, I'm not.

862
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:45,759
Speaker 2: I said, I'm so that's what's going on my fire,

863
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 2: no doubt.

864
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:50,360
Speaker 1: He tried so high that with humor, Yeah, it was.

865
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 1: It was quite funny anyway. So yeah, well it's coming back,

866
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:56,240
Speaker 1: and it's basically I say, come back as a civilian,

867
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:58,360
Speaker 1: but you've you've gone from playing the role of a

868
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:00,800
Speaker 1: bad guy or whatever role you had to play into

869
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 1: back into law enforcement officers. So it is a bit

870
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 1: of a mind mind change, isn't it It is?

871
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 2: You know, you go from one day drinking beer at

872
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,440
Speaker 2: six in the morning and whatever, driving your car going

873
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 2: to get your drugs. You got drugs and your back

874
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 2: wallet or in your top pocket probably got around about

875
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 2: you know, ten or fifteen twenty thousand dollars in cash.

876
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 2: You've got a gun stash underneath it your seat or

877
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,360
Speaker 2: your car. Your car's all tricked up and all this

878
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 2: sort of stuff, you know. And the next day you're

879
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:32,279
Speaker 2: sitting your crime stopping and going, yes, how can I

880
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 2: help you relieve blogs? And you can't go and have

881
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 2: a coffee because they don't know where you are. You know,

882
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,839
Speaker 2: it's just the whole concept was just not quite right

883
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:41,720
Speaker 2: to me. But that was the reintegration process.

884
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so you got back in there. Now, okay,

885
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 1: we'll strike force argus, what tell us what that's about.

886
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 2: Look, Task Force Argos really was the investigation of child abusers. Yeah,

887
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 2: that's the end of it. There are different areas within

888
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:03,800
Speaker 2: child Within some will sit in computers and pretend to

889
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,359
Speaker 2: be ten year old children online. Yeah, that's that's another

890
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 2: area I didn't didn't get into that. There are a

891
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 2: special breed of people themselves another area which I think

892
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:14,919
Speaker 2: they should only be limited time.

893
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:17,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, some people has to play with your mind.

894
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it does just leave it leaves the police open

895
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 2: for big payouts at a later time silliness. But you

896
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:29,840
Speaker 2: can't tell them, Yeah, I can't tell them. So, but

897
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 2: I was on the floor. Yeah, and we would just

898
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 2: get same as you would normally do as a detective.

899
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 2: You would just get files come through and then you

900
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 2: pick up the files and run with that, you know.

901
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 2: So that's that's where I sort of started with the

902
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 2: pedophilia type. I did a couple of pedophile jobs Willson

903
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 2: and undercover, but an investigation of them was quite tricky.

904
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:53,280
Speaker 2: They're very unique individual to pedophile.

905
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, is there a type like in the area that

906
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 1: you work and if you've done under cover work on

907
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 1: it too. But then going to the strikeforce concentrating on them.

908
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 1: Is there a type? How would you describe them all?

909
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:08,359
Speaker 1: The fact that you can't describe.

910
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 2: Them, well, I don't think you can. I don't did

911
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 2: there is a type? People say there is, and I

912
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 2: actually illuminate that with Cowen there was a bit of

913
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:19,399
Speaker 2: a type, but that was really maybe not the type.

914
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 2: It was the way they would behave. The behavior was

915
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 2: similar nature, of course, because their end goal is similar.

916
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 2: But you know, they could be women, they could be

917
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 2: children offending against children. They could be adults opending against you.

918
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 2: The groups of adults opending against children. There was a

919
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:37,360
Speaker 2: pilot that was involved in the baby club and he

920
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 2: was in and I never knew this existed. To this,

921
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:44,239
Speaker 2: it even amazes me today. He was in the baby club.

922
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:47,320
Speaker 2: So when he went home he would change into a

923
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 2: nappy and crap his pants and suck on bottles.

924
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:52,239
Speaker 1: Jesus, and he's flying the plane.

925
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 2: For us and flying the plane for you, or cooking

926
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 2: the stake at the local pub. But that's what they

927
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:01,759
Speaker 2: would get online, and they'd trade little children, and they

928
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 2: would have their own children that were in nappies to

929
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 2: be traded. Yeah, he was just bizarre. You know. I

930
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 2: went into one room and here he is a man,

931
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 2: not a big man, but a man. Nonetheless, you know,

932
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:16,279
Speaker 2: thirty five maybe forty years of age, lying in a cot,

933
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:20,279
Speaker 2: sucking on a bottle in a nappy. The hell is

934
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 2: going on in Okay? I don't know if I'm laughing,

935
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 2: crying or whatever I'm doing that. We hear a lot

936
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 2: on this podcast.

937
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:30,239
Speaker 1: Shocked. Yeah, I'd be shocked to and you said, what

938
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:31,400
Speaker 1: did you say to him?

939
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:34,400
Speaker 2: Honestly, my first question was said, what do you do

940
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 2: when I go to the toilet? And he looked at

941
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 2: him other fool. He just said, I shipped myself. Well,

942
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 2: you're in a nappy?

943
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:42,239
Speaker 1: I was why not? That's his thing, that's his thing.

944
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 2: That's just I'm just I'm still shocked to this day

945
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 2: that that that and still goes on to this day.

946
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 1: Baby club, baby club, Yeah, okay, just puts a different

947
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 1: connotation on it. When people say, anyway.

948
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 2: What was he charged with that he was high, he

949
00:45:58,000 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 2: was grooming children?

950
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, not charge with dressed in the product, the charge

951
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 1: for that, no charge, but grooming children?

952
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:08,840
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well rape was rape and the children.

953
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 1: How big is that? There's a team, how many members

954
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 1: on them? What's the reach of it?

955
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,839
Speaker 2: Look back then it was governed by a superintendent who

956
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 2: at that time was Ross Barnett, who went on to

957
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:25,280
Speaker 2: be the Assistant Deputy Commissioner. There's a couple of inspectors

958
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 2: for each area, like for the computers area and the

959
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:34,320
Speaker 2: general floor. Then there would have been maybe four senior sergeants,

960
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:40,360
Speaker 2: probably five or six senior sergeants and basically detective constables

961
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 2: after and senior constables.

962
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 1: Okay, so it was a fair size.

963
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 2: It was a fair size. Yeah, there would have been

964
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 2: maybe forty forty old people.

965
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 1: And they did a lot of good work. A great

966
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 1: lot they had, like worldwise as knowledge. The work that

967
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 1: Task Force ARGUS has done. Absolutely it's a heavy work

968
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 1: and I think that type of work. I'm not sure

969
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 1: the numbers on ARGUS, but I know in New South

970
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 1: Wales child sex crime investigators they always seem to be overworked.

971
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 1: It didn't really impolicing. I'm not sure if it's changed now,

972
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 1: but it didn't really give the importance to it that

973
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,280
Speaker 1: was needed and the staff to it. And I always

974
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 1: felt for people on those because it's such a horrible crime.

975
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:24,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, and look what I found you were overworked for

976
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:26,880
Speaker 2: a reason is that you took it personally. Yeah, And

977
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 2: that's and I think you put more into it than

978
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 2: what you did at the times. That's what I found

979
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:32,399
Speaker 2: while I was overworked. Yeah, you know, apart from having

980
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 2: a lot of files. Yeah, once you got into something

981
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 2: with a bit of meat about it, you know, I

982
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:40,200
Speaker 2: would stay from six in the morning till six or

983
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:42,719
Speaker 2: seven at night and you're only getting paid from eight

984
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 2: to four. Yeah, and they darn't give you any extra

985
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:45,800
Speaker 2: you know.

986
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:49,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, I know we went through that in New

987
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:52,400
Speaker 1: South Wales as well. But you're committed to it. It's

988
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:54,759
Speaker 1: a vacation, isn't it. It is a passion. And I

989
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 1: would imagine we've child sex cases too. You can't sort

990
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 1: of just walk away from because it's five o'clock knockoff. Yeah,

991
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 1: the kid might be in danger, not to your child

992
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 1: that gets offended. Yeah, there's so many reasons why you

993
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:11,279
Speaker 1: need to stay back and put the work work in.

994
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're dead right.

995
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 1: So finding your way in that field? Did you ask

996
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:17,799
Speaker 1: to go into that field or is it just how

997
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 1: the cards fell.

998
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:23,839
Speaker 2: Look Once you come out of undercover, they they take

999
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 2: part of your undercover as detective training.

1000
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:26,879
Speaker 1: Yep.

1001
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 2: So they give you a bit of credit towards being

1002
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 2: a detective.

1003
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1004
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:32,400
Speaker 2: So if you wanted to say, well, look I'm not

1005
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:33,840
Speaker 2: going to go that way, I'll stay in uniform, you

1006
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:35,840
Speaker 2: could have stayed in uniform. Yeah, yeah, so I thought, no,

1007
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 2: I'll continue on. Yeah, and so they said, well, look

1008
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:43,800
Speaker 2: we I behooved now to put you in a placement.

1009
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 2: Where would you like to go? I said, well, I'd

1010
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 2: like to go to Cairns, I said. So I went

1011
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:50,000
Speaker 2: up and had a look at a house, got anything

1012
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:51,719
Speaker 2: sorted out, and they said, we're not going to Cans.

1013
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 2: So that all fell apart. I said, where am I going?

1014
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 2: They said, I starting next you are, but you can

1015
00:48:58,480 --> 00:48:59,760
Speaker 2: go to Argos.

1016
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:00,279
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1017
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 2: I saw what the hell's are gus? And they told them.

1018
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 2: I said okay, I'll start Monday. So that's where we went.

1019
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, okay, fell into it that way. Now, it

1020
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:10,719
Speaker 1: was because of your involvement in Argos. It was while

1021
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 1: you're working there that Daniel Morkham's disappearance. So tell me

1022
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:17,520
Speaker 1: how you became aware of that and how you became

1023
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 1: involved in going to Brett's Cown's. Well.

1024
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 2: Obviously, Daniel went missing early December two thousand and three.

1025
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 2: So then we were a group of people that were

1026
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:34,799
Speaker 2: called upon to go up and continue the investigation because

1027
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 2: it was going to be a little bit protracted. So

1028
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:38,840
Speaker 2: I think it was about two weeks later that we

1029
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:40,320
Speaker 2: were up there, So it would have been probably a

1030
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:43,280
Speaker 2: week before after he was missing, but a week before

1031
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 2: that we went up there that they called us in

1032
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:48,399
Speaker 2: and said, look, your team's going up. This team's going

1033
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 2: up and whatnot. So you get up there and you

1034
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:53,480
Speaker 2: get into your accommodation and then you rock up for

1035
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:56,799
Speaker 2: your briefings and they give you a well, at that time,

1036
00:49:56,840 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 2: they gave you a series of folders convicted released sex

1037
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:06,239
Speaker 2: offenders in that area, and a whole sole job was

1038
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 2: to go around and check out their bona fighters. You know,

1039
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:10,759
Speaker 2: if they said I was at the shop at that time,

1040
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:12,759
Speaker 2: you would spend half the day going to the shop

1041
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,800
Speaker 2: getting CCTV and come back and say, yes, verified alibi

1042
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 2: at that time, and then you can discard that person's

1043
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 2: That's sort of how we come up and whether it

1044
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 2: was fortunate or unfortunate. One of the people in the

1045
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 2: file was Brett Peter Count.

1046
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:28,920
Speaker 1: Okay, do you when you get the file, has the

1047
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:31,800
Speaker 1: background checks being done or you're aware of it, or

1048
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:34,000
Speaker 1: you get the file, he's a name this Blake's a

1049
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 1: pedophile sex offender. Do you then build a profile before

1050
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:39,840
Speaker 1: you go out, prep before you you go out to

1051
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:43,239
Speaker 1: speak to I would like to. Yeah, Sometimes you don't

1052
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:46,800
Speaker 1: get the chance. But we did on a couple of occaves,

1053
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:48,759
Speaker 1: and we did on Cowen. Why we did on Coun

1054
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:50,560
Speaker 1: I couldn't say there was any reason why we did

1055
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:52,320
Speaker 1: it more than we would have others. I do not

1056
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:54,800
Speaker 1: know at that stage, but only because I think that

1057
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 1: going through his criminal history, he had some history in

1058
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:00,600
Speaker 1: Northern Territory. Yeah, you had some history in Pride to

1059
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 1: Ordon Territory, right, and he was brought back from Lordon

1060
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:07,359
Speaker 1: Territory to Queensland to complete his sentence from the one

1061
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:10,880
Speaker 1: in Darwin because you want to be close to family.

1062
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:14,360
Speaker 1: I think it was right something along those lines. For

1063
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:18,400
Speaker 1: the offense in Queensland, we had Darren Edwards on it.

1064
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:20,560
Speaker 1: That you know, and I think you think highly of

1065
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:24,520
Speaker 1: Derek and so that I worked with him. We had

1066
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 1: a couple of crossover investigations. But he locked Brett Cowan

1067
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:32,840
Speaker 1: up for that crime. That was a horrendous crime. So

1068
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:36,240
Speaker 1: you would have seen that type of history when you're

1069
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:38,240
Speaker 1: looking at him before you've gone out to his place.

1070
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:42,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, we did. But there's no detailed about the history. Yeah,

1071
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 2: you know, I mean, there's no storyline behind it.

1072
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:48,279
Speaker 1: I guess just these are the charges, a short title

1073
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:48,800
Speaker 1: of the offense.

1074
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 2: You would like to know that it was first of all,

1075
00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:53,640
Speaker 2: in a public toilet. You would like to know the

1076
00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:55,759
Speaker 2: injuries to the child. You would like to know what

1077
00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 2: age he was at the time, what age the child was,

1078
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:03,600
Speaker 2: the physical description of the child, and that sort of stuff.

1079
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:07,160
Speaker 1: That's what I would like to know all factors in Yeah,

1080
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 1: I suppose, And it's very much the way at different

1081
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:16,400
Speaker 1: stages of terrial investigations approached that perhaps a pedophile is involved.

1082
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:18,040
Speaker 1: The three year old child was a little bit different

1083
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 1: because there wasn't a lot of that type of crime

1084
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 1: to rely on. And I know that what we were

1085
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 1: looking at that pedophiles normally aim for children a little

1086
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 1: bit older, if in an induction type situation. But going

1087
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:35,960
Speaker 1: there you might be able to eliminate the inquiry straight off,

1088
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 1: like you go out there, knock on the door. No,

1089
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:39,880
Speaker 1: I was in prison during that time all this, so

1090
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:42,239
Speaker 1: there might be an alibi that's readily Okay, Well you

1091
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:45,320
Speaker 1: can move on to the next because in jobs like that.

1092
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:47,360
Speaker 1: That's surprising when you're cast a net on all the

1093
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:50,719
Speaker 1: people who are being convicted of child sex offenses. Has

1094
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 1: a lot of people caught up, isn't there?

1095
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:53,879
Speaker 2: Look there is a hell of a lot of people.

1096
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:56,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. Look, Dennis, we might take a take a break

1097
00:52:56,600 --> 00:53:00,759
Speaker 1: here because I want to delve into what and when

1098
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:04,400
Speaker 1: you went to Brett Cowan's place. And I've got a

1099
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:05,920
Speaker 1: sense of it, but I think people are going to

1100
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:09,799
Speaker 1: find it fascinating just what happens when police came knock

1101
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:12,720
Speaker 1: on the door for what, for all intents and purposes,

1102
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:17,440
Speaker 1: a routine inquiry. So we might delve into that in

1103
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:19,600
Speaker 1: part two when we come back, if that's all right,