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Speaker 1: Welcome to Healthy Listeners. Thanks for joining us today on

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Speaker 1: this daily podcast from Body and Soul. I hope you

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Speaker 1: are having a spectacular day. I am Felicity Harley. I

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Speaker 1: tell you what I really enjoyed this interview. I have

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Speaker 1: long admired doctor Jennifer Gunta. She is one of the

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Speaker 1: fiercest advocates for women's health on social media. Do you

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Speaker 1: follow her? If not, you should. She is also a

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Speaker 1: best selling author and gynecologist, and she joins us from

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Speaker 1: the US today to discuss well the misinformation around health

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Speaker 1: on social media, and she updates us on the latest

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Speaker 1: scandalous health headline about tampons. If you do like what

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Speaker 1: you hear from Jen, make sure you're listening to Extra

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Speaker 1: Healthy Ish, where she talks about whether you can actually

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Speaker 1: balance your hormones. You can search for Extra Healthy Ish

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Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Jen.

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Speaker 1: It's a pleasure and I'm very excited talk to you today.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me now.

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Speaker 1: You have grown a mass following, including May for a

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Speaker 1: long while for calling out basically baas about women's health,

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Speaker 1: particularly well on social media, and you've got a substack

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Speaker 1: as well. I mean there is so much confusion.

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Speaker 2: Why Yeah, I mean, I think there's a few reasons.

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Speaker 2: I think one, a lot of people are just under

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Speaker 2: educated about their bodies. You know, in general, they're under

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Speaker 2: educated about their bodies, but when it comes to reproductive healthcare,

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Speaker 2: because there's all these layers of misogyny and patriarchy, that

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Speaker 2: it's even worse, right, So I think that's a big

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Speaker 2: part of it. And then with social media, you know,

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Speaker 2: we have this rise of disinfluencers who are really taking

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Speaker 2: advantage of the gaps in medicine. There are so many

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Speaker 2: women who go and they have complaints and concerns about

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Speaker 2: their bodies and they're told there's nothing wrong with them,

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Speaker 2: or they're sent away, and so that creates this big gap,

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Speaker 2: and of course we need to fix that. But entering

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Speaker 2: into that gap are people trying to sell you stuff

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Speaker 2: and who are promising you the moon.

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Speaker 1: So what can we do? I mean, how how can

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Speaker 1: we figure it all out? Because you read a headline

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Speaker 1: and you see someone preaching it on social media, and

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Speaker 1: then you see a product being offered. Are there any

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Speaker 1: kind of guidelines or rule of thumb that you know,

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Speaker 1: the rest of us can follow? Who aren't doctors when

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Speaker 1: it comes to consuming our women's health information.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so first of all, consider the source. Is this

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Speaker 2: somebody who is considered in any way an expert, you know,

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Speaker 2: Are they a doctor, Are they you know, a physical therapist,

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Speaker 2: Are they, you know, a registered dietitian, Are they health reporter?

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Speaker 2: Are they somebody who works for a government agency. Now

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Speaker 2: obviously there's people, there's doctors who sell garbage. So that's

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Speaker 2: not a you know, a definite, but that can help

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Speaker 2: you kind of weed things out. Read beyond the headlines.

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Speaker 2: It's so many times people just read the headline and

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Speaker 2: the headlines. You know, you can see a journalist write

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Speaker 2: an amazing story and the headline's garbage. But the journalists

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Speaker 2: have nothing to do with that garbage headline that was

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Speaker 2: designed to get page clicks.

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Speaker 3: If you're going to read a.

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Speaker 2: Headline, yeah right, Like, I'm sure that's happened to you.

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Speaker 2: If you're going to read a headline, you've got to

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Speaker 2: promise yourself to read the article or don't bother with

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Speaker 2: the headline and get a second source of validation. So

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Speaker 2: don't just you know, don't just go by one person

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Speaker 2: and consider if they're selling you something that they're not

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Speaker 2: a good source of information.

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Speaker 1: We just have to be so much more savvy today.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I just think, you know, I've been working

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Speaker 1: in this space for a while around Women's Health magazine

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Speaker 1: for many years, and you know, we used to have

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Speaker 1: so much more time as a journalist to write an article.

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Speaker 1: But now our time is you know, it's gone from

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Speaker 1: like a week working on one article to perhaps in

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Speaker 1: some situations like thirty minutes to turning around something.

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Speaker 2: Right, yeah, And I mean so that affects the quality

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Speaker 2: of the people you can interview, because not everybody can

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Speaker 2: be available, right, so you might not get the right expert.

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Speaker 3: That affects the quality of the product you put out.

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Speaker 2: And it also affects the content because those things that

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Speaker 2: are these rapid twenty four to seven you know, new

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Speaker 2: that the news cycle hungary stuff, They aren't necessarily the

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Speaker 2: things that we actually should be talking about. You know

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Speaker 2: that they've become this thing when they're not. And so

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Speaker 2: then how do you parse out that when you've got

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Speaker 2: to turn something around the same day, you know, how

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Speaker 2: does it fit into the cultural landscape?

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Speaker 3: You can't do that.

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Speaker 2: You're writing a reactionary piece as opposed to an exploratory piece.

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Speaker 1: Now there is a headline that Kate's popping up down here.

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Speaker 1: It's on TikTok. You've written about it on your substack.

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Speaker 1: Our tampon's really toxic. I have to ask you about

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Speaker 1: these what's the truth here? Tell us a bit about well,

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Speaker 1: the study that's been turned into perhaps mass ysteria.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so whenever anathing gets inserted into your vagina, believe

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Speaker 2: that there's even more snake oil and more patriarchy attached

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Speaker 2: to it. So just always keep that in mind. So

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Speaker 2: it is true that tampons are associated with toxic shock syndrome,

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Speaker 2: which is a real, very serious condition, and that's involving

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Speaker 2: the overgrowth of a bacteria in the vagina that produces

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Speaker 2: a toxin that's potentially life threatening. The risk of that

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Speaker 2: happening is about the same or a little bit less

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Speaker 2: than being struck by lightning. So you just kind of

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Speaker 2: have to put that in perspective. So very low probability

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Speaker 2: at high consequence. So is that a reason to not

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Speaker 2: use tampons? For most people know, but people need to

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Speaker 2: know that risk. But what happens is studies or case

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Speaker 2: reports or you know, small exploratory studies get amplified by

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Speaker 2: people who have no business talking about them, and they

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Speaker 2: become a viral thing. And that's what happened with this

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Speaker 2: small exploitatory study looking at metals and tampons, And of

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Speaker 2: course everybody's talking about there being metals put in tamponts

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Speaker 2: on purpose, and this is why you know it's harmful

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Speaker 2: to women, and this plays on you know, I've been

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Speaker 2: doing this for thirty years. It used to be asbestos

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Speaker 2: that people put in tampons, and it was dioxin that

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Speaker 2: people you know, So there's always this thing that people

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Speaker 2: are putting in tampons. Why because a patriarchy doesn't want

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Speaker 2: you putting something in your of China. So that's kind

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Speaker 2: of where it comes from. And it is true there

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Speaker 2: are some very low levels because cotton is grown in

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Speaker 2: the soil and plants are bioaccumulators. Like I hate to

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Speaker 2: tell you, you don't want to know what's in your kale.

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Speaker 2: So kales are really impressive bioaccumulator. So it's important to

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Speaker 2: put that. And when you hear that, you're like, oh, okay,

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Speaker 2: well that's less scary. And then when you hear that

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Speaker 2: the amount of these metals might be less than found

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Speaker 2: in a bottle of water. Then you might say, oh,

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Speaker 2: when I'm drinking that and I'm not. No one's banging

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Speaker 2: down the door about that. So you know, nuance, though,

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Speaker 2: doesn't translate to a twenty four hour viral news cycle,

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Speaker 2: and so that's part of the problem. And so we're

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Speaker 2: left running around, you know, trying to mop up the

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Speaker 2: disaster from people you know, and then the disinfluencers who've

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Speaker 2: done this already on to the next thing.

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Speaker 1: So drink your woater for now, pats what you cob

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Speaker 1: and use your tampons.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you use what you like.

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Speaker 2: And it's sort of I often think these people won't

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Speaker 2: be happy unless women are bleeding on their beds in

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Speaker 2: the room because they want to scare you about chemicals

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Speaker 2: in period underwear. They want to scare you about chemicals

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Speaker 2: and paths. I want to scare about chemicals and tampons.

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Speaker 3: They want to scare you about you know, all these

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Speaker 3: different products.

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Speaker 2: And again what people don't understand is a lot of

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Speaker 2: these people are also funded by their wing so that

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of this. You know, well, what did

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Speaker 2: women used to do two hundred years ago? You know,

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Speaker 2: they've blood on their clothes, or they stayed at home.

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Speaker 1: And I mean, do you how do you go sing

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Speaker 1: all these I mean you're outraged it comes out through

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Speaker 1: your social media. I mean when you say these studies

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Speaker 1: pop up, I mean do you are you living in

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Speaker 1: this raging world? Or how do you personally take all these?

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, when it comes out, I sort of

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Speaker 2: always wait and see if it catches, because I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I do I have to write about that because sometimes

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Speaker 2: it doesn't go anywhere. But you know, I get really

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Speaker 2: angry at the system that creates it. So, for example,

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Speaker 2: the universities associated with this small preliminary study, they didn't

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Speaker 2: have to put out press releases. This wasn't a press

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Speaker 2: release worthy thing. They did it because it would get attention.

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Speaker 2: And so now we see universities doing that because it

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Speaker 2: gets funding. You know, we're seeing doctors and researchers talking

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Speaker 2: about studies that aren't even published yet, they haven't finished enrolling,

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Speaker 2: and they're talking about them in the press as if

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Speaker 2: they have their results.

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Speaker 3: And that's not fair. That's not the scientific process.

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Speaker 2: So it creates this uphill battle, if you will, to

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Speaker 2: try to explain to people that you know, a preliminary

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Speaker 2: study on you know, a small number of people doesn't

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Speaker 2: mean anything. And oh, by the way, of tampon servents

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Speaker 2: two studies that have looked at levels of lead and

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Speaker 2: arsenic and haven't found that there's any association with tampon use,

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Speaker 2: which was not included in that paper by the way,

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Speaker 2: you know, so I had to go digging to find that.

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Speaker 3: So, yeah, it's disheartening and.

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Speaker 2: It's upsetting to see these influencers use it for to

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Speaker 2: get page clicks, because they can turn page clicks into currency.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, Now you're about to come to Australia, tell

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Speaker 1: us a bit about your talk and the messages you

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Speaker 1: want to get out there to Ozzie women and.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well, I want people to know that they

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Speaker 2: should know about their body and they should know they

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Speaker 2: should know the basic facts. They should know though, how

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Speaker 2: to ask questions when they aren't getting those facts, and

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Speaker 2: they should know about the disinformation that's their online so

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Speaker 2: they can sort out who's trying to help them and

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Speaker 2: who's trying to harm them, because it can be very

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Speaker 2: challenging to tell. And when you start seeing how all

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Speaker 2: these people are funded by supplements and you see all

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Speaker 2: these overlapping layers of the patriarchy and what the patriarchy

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Speaker 2: is actually supporting. It's really difficult for any consumer to

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Speaker 2: make choices. So I'm hoping to get people a little enraged.

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Speaker 2: I'm hoping to get them to read beyond the headlines,

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Speaker 2: and I'm hoping to get them empowered about their health well.

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Speaker 1: Looking forward to seeing you Dan here. Thanks for joining

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Speaker 1: us on Healthy Well Listeners. Doctor Jen Gunter is coming

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Speaker 1: to Australia. If you are interested in her event called Menstruation,

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Speaker 1: Menopause and Medical Mythology at UNSW Sydney on August fifteenth,

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Speaker 1: jump on our show notes. I will label link to

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Speaker 1: that there. She is also appearing at a few other

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Speaker 1: talks around Australia as well. If you enjoy this chat

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Speaker 1: as much as I did interviewing her, tell us rate

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Speaker 1: and review this well this episode. Grab to this podcast.

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Speaker 1: Make sure you are following us on well your trusted

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Speaker 1: form of social media at Body and Soul Jump online,

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Speaker 1: bodyansoul dot com, dot you grow our print edition which

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Speaker 1: is out in your local Sunday paper and until tomorrow,

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Speaker 1: Stay Healthy is