Speaker 1: Now as soon as that appointment was announced, and you
Speaker 1: got to remember at this stage Harry now has three jobs,
Speaker 1: but none of the different departments in the Australian government
Speaker 1: know that Harry's working for the others.
Speaker 2: I'm Jen Kelly from the Herald Son and this is
Speaker 2: in Black and White, a podcast about some of Australia's
Speaker 2: forgotten characters. Welcome back for part two of the story
Speaker 2: of Harry Freme, the Marvel of Gallipoli. Make sure you
Speaker 2: listen to part one first, we're speaking again with Ryan Butter,
Speaker 2: the author of a new book called The Bravest Scout
Speaker 2: at Gallipoli. We'll hear soon what Harry did in the
Speaker 2: Second World War, including being sent to Japan as a spy,
Speaker 2: and why Ryan describes Harry as the Anzac hero portrayed
Speaker 2: by his nation. As we heard in part one, Harry
Speaker 2: Freme showed incredible bravery in the First World War, but
Speaker 2: struggled during the tough years of the Depression while raising
Speaker 2: a family. Let's jump back in and find out what
Speaker 2: happened next and was Harry still held in high esteem
Speaker 2: for the incredible things that he had done at Gallipoli
Speaker 2: by the wider community.
Speaker 1: He was held in really high esteem by the ex soldiers.
Speaker 1: So there's a magazine called Revel which came out in
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty one, and Harry's on the front cover, and
Speaker 1: that magazine went out to all the X diggers, and
Speaker 1: you know, there was seven pages dedicated to his exploits
Speaker 1: on Gallipoli. He would go around and talk about the war,
Speaker 1: and there was always sort of excitement in the newspapers
Speaker 1: that Harry Freme's coming. He's going to be talking, you know,
Speaker 1: telling stories of the war. So that was always he
Speaker 1: was very much loved by it, never forgotten by his comrades.
Speaker 1: But in that Revelve magazine, it was a really interesting
Speaker 1: line and it was written in nineteen thirty one, so
Speaker 1: it's twelve years after they came back, and it says that,
Speaker 1: you know, twelve years later, the memories of Gallipoli are
Speaker 1: fading for everybody, and so you can see how quickly
Speaker 1: things were being forgotten. Now, obviously today you think, wow,
Speaker 1: how could that ever be forgotten? But in that time
Speaker 1: set of ten fifteen years after it happened, there was
Speaker 1: this fear that what these men had gone through would
Speaker 1: be forgotten.
Speaker 2: Now take us forward to the second World War and
Speaker 2: the very significant events involving Harry.
Speaker 1: So by the outbreak of the Second World War in
Speaker 1: September of nineteen thirty nine, Harry is in a desperate situation.
Speaker 1: His farmers failed, there's no fruit, he can't pay off
Speaker 1: the debt. Four days after the Second World War breaks out,
Speaker 1: Edith May dies oh and Harry's left absolutely distraught. So
Speaker 1: now he has two children to raise by himself. He's broke,
Speaker 1: the farms failed. He tries to enlist in the army
Speaker 1: and he's told he's too old, so he can't enlist.
Speaker 1: So he goes back to his contacts in intelligence and
Speaker 1: it's unsure if they contact him or he takes them,
Speaker 1: but he gets a letter from a man called Jack Scott.
Speaker 1: Jack Scott's a really interesting character in the whole Harry
Speaker 1: frame story. Jack Scott was also a GLIPI veteran. He
Speaker 1: came back to Australia. He helped set up Legacy, the
Speaker 1: charity Legacy, but he was also a member of a
Speaker 1: thing called the Old Guard, which was a right wing
Speaker 1: group set up and had about thirty thousand X diggers
Speaker 1: involved in it, and it was to you know, sort
Speaker 1: of promote the values and be a ball walk against
Speaker 1: Bolshevism back in Australia during the nineteen twenties and early thirties.
Speaker 1: That kind of fades away in around nineteen thirty one
Speaker 1: ninety thirty two and Jack Scott becomes an absolute ardent
Speaker 1: admirer of Japan. And so throughout the nineteen thirties, Jack
Speaker 1: Scott's writing all these pro Japanese articles, he visits Japan,
Speaker 1: he's part of the Australian japan society. He's almost it's
Speaker 1: almost propaganda. In nineteen thirty five, as Japan starts to
Speaker 1: emerge as another real threat to Australia, Jack Scott is
Speaker 1: recruited into military intelligence and it's really unclear through the
Speaker 1: files if he was a sympathizer still with Japan, because
Speaker 1: the intelligence were actually focusing on the Japanese community in
Speaker 1: Australia and it's really hard to see what side Jack
Speaker 1: Scott was on. But he recruits Harry Frem and he
Speaker 1: becomes Harry Frem's handler because there was a lot of
Speaker 1: Japanese in New South Wales and Australia, and the Australian
Speaker 1: intelligence community were unsure how these men and women of
Speaker 1: Japan would react if Japan declared war on Australia, so
Speaker 1: they wanted to keep a close eye on them. They
Speaker 1: mapped where they all lived, they registered where they all lived,
Speaker 1: and they actually had people tailing them.
Speaker 3: Harry Frem was recruited to spy on.
Speaker 1: The Japanese community in Sydney, and so he came down
Speaker 1: from Kentucky and he set himself up in Sydney. Not
Speaker 1: long after getting to Sydney, he then gets recruited by censorship.
Speaker 1: So he was then going through the mail that the
Speaker 1: Japanese people were sending back or was coming to Australia
Speaker 1: trying to find intelligence information. So he's gone from working
Speaker 1: on a failed farm to the outbreak of World War two,
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden he's got two jobs. That's
Speaker 1: in August of nineteen forty. In September of nineteen forty,
Speaker 1: he's then recruited by external affairs. Because what happened then
Speaker 1: was that Australia decided they couldn't stop war with Japan.
Speaker 1: They kind of felt that war with Japan was inevitable,
Speaker 1: but they thought they could push it down the road
Speaker 1: a little bit further. So they decided to send an
Speaker 1: ambassador to Tokyo, and that was a mean called John Latham,
Speaker 1: and he was going to go and set up the
Speaker 1: first legation or sort of embassy in Japan for Australia,
Speaker 1: and Military Intelligence chose Harry Frame to be the interpreter
Speaker 1: to John Latham, who would go to Tokyo with him. Now,
Speaker 1: as soon as that appointment was announced, and you got
Speaker 1: to remember at this stage, Harry now has three jobs,
Speaker 1: but none of the different departments in the Australian government
Speaker 1: know that Harry's working for the others.
Speaker 3: So incredible.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So when when External Affairs decide that the military
Speaker 1: intelligence says you should recruit Harry, so external and they
Speaker 1: don't tell him. They don't tell External Affairs that Harry's
Speaker 1: already working as a spy. So External affairs to find
Speaker 1: Harry and they can't find him because of course he's
Speaker 1: embedded in the Japanese community, he's undercover, he's working. So
Speaker 1: we can't find Harry, and so they so military Intelligence
Speaker 1: put External Affairs in touch with Harry. Harry's nomination or
Speaker 1: his appointment as the interpreter is reported in the newspapers,
Speaker 1: but at the bottom of the article it says he's
Speaker 1: currently engaged in special defense work. Now this puts a
Speaker 1: huge cat amongst the pigeons. Military Intelligence are furious with
Speaker 1: External Affairs. They blame them for leaking this and they
Speaker 1: write to them. McBride, the Minister of the Army writes
Speaker 1: to black Jack McEwan and says, how has this name
Speaker 1: been leaked out? And his real role has been leaked
Speaker 1: to the press, and then External Affairs says, well, everyone
Speaker 1: knows what he's working on. Everyone knows that he's doing this,
Speaker 1: and we actually spoke with the consulate and told them
Speaker 1: this is who we're sending and so there's this.
Speaker 3: Massive breach of security, and.
Speaker 1: Military Intelligence says nobody knew that he was working as
Speaker 1: an intelligence agent. So Harry is at this point he's
Speaker 1: in Sydney, his cover's been blown. He's starting to be
Speaker 1: followed by Japanese spies in Sydney. And in addition to that,
Speaker 1: because of this fear of Japanese in general, he's also
Speaker 1: been denounced and we've got letters that people have written
Speaker 1: to local police denouncing Harry Frame as possibly a Fifth
Speaker 1: columnist obviously you know, a Japanese agent, when in the
Speaker 1: reality is he's actually working for the Australians. So he's
Speaker 1: got a head off to Tokyo, knowing that his cover's
Speaker 1: been blown already, and that filled him with a lot
Speaker 1: of fear. He was horrified because in July, just a
Speaker 1: few months previously, a British agent in Japan, a guy
Speaker 1: called James Cox, had been caught by the Japanese military
Speaker 1: police called the Kempetai and he'd been taken in for
Speaker 1: questioning and then they threw him out of a sixth
Speaker 1: story window. They said it was suicide, but it was
Speaker 1: obviously that he was thrown out. So at this point
Speaker 1: in the story, you think, why would Harry go or
Speaker 1: why would they send Harry? But there was this sort
Speaker 1: of bureaucratic bungling between the three agents sees of what
Speaker 1: to do and we didn't leak his name, and no,
Speaker 1: you leaked it. But Harry still gets on that boat.
Speaker 1: And that was one of the reason that one of
Speaker 1: the reasons I wrote the book, or I started to
Speaker 1: really look at Harry's storyer, why would he get on
Speaker 1: that boat? And other people who have written a little
Speaker 1: bit about his history say, it's the Bushido code, it's
Speaker 1: the loyal the loyal samurai serving the master, or he
Speaker 1: was obliged to go ok I come to a different conclusion.
Speaker 1: I think he was broke. He had two children to raise,
Speaker 1: and I think he thought he could go up there,
Speaker 1: do his job and come back. So he goes up
Speaker 1: to Tokyo. He's not well, he's got stomach problems. Just
Speaker 1: before leaving, he remarries, which is really surprising. So less
Speaker 1: than a year after his first wife died, he remarries
Speaker 1: another lady, a nurse, and that's important. He marries a
Speaker 1: nurse in Sydney. But he goes on January twenty seventh,
Speaker 1: he's walking down the street in Tokyo and he gets attacked.
Speaker 1: He gets attacked by the campetite and they try to
Speaker 1: strangle him. Somehow breaks free and he sort of hides
Speaker 1: for a couple of days and then he ends up
Speaker 1: in a hospital. He goes to the American hospital, Saint Luke's.
Speaker 3: He arrives at the.
Speaker 1: Hospital and he finds that the Americans have evacuated all
Speaker 1: of their American doctors and there's only Japanese doctors. And
Speaker 1: so he's terrified now to say what's happened to him,
Speaker 1: because they'll either informed the kempatite or the kempt I
Speaker 1: will find out and they'll come back and finish the job.
Speaker 1: So he says nothing. They do all these tests on
Speaker 1: him and they find that he's got damaged vocal cords.
Speaker 1: He's lost his voice now because obviously he's tried to
Speaker 1: strangle him. He doesn't say anything to anyone, he doesn't
Speaker 1: say anything to his other co workers at the Australian legation,
Speaker 1: and he gets sent back to Australia. So he arrives
Speaker 1: back in Australia in April and he's completely broken man
Speaker 1: because he can hardly eat, he can hardly swallow, and
Speaker 1: his throats mangled. And they put him in hospital in
Speaker 1: Sydney and they have all these doctors come and visit him,
Speaker 1: and eventually they have a throat specialist come and this
Speaker 1: is all important information about the throat. But they have
Speaker 1: a throat specialists come and no one can work out
Speaker 1: what's wrong with him, and he's still not saying what
Speaker 1: happened to him. Eventually they said, look, we can't do
Speaker 1: anything for him. He's going to die. He's better off
Speaker 1: being at home and dying with his family. So he's
Speaker 1: released in early May, back back to the care of
Speaker 1: his wife, Harriet, who's a nurse, and when he's discharged
Speaker 1: from hospital, his file says undiagnosed, so they could never
Speaker 1: find out what was wrong with him. A few weeks later,
Speaker 1: on twenty seven May, he dies. He dies choking on
Speaker 1: his own mucus in the arms of Harriet. This immediately
Speaker 1: sets off a flurry of activity among external affairs military intelligence,
Speaker 1: and they're trying to call the doctors. They're trying to
Speaker 1: get hold of the death certificate, find out what happened
Speaker 1: to him. When the death certificate finally surfaces, it says
Speaker 1: that he died of gorebladder cancer. Now, this is really
Speaker 1: tentious point historically, and the number of people have looked
Speaker 1: at this. Now I took Harry's We've got really good
Speaker 1: files on Harry. We've got his medical files from Tokyo.
Speaker 1: When he was first interned in the hospital there, they
Speaker 1: did a lot of tests on him, blood test, X rays,
Speaker 1: no hint of cancer, no hint of gad bladder cancer.
Speaker 1: When he came back, we've got his repat file and
Speaker 1: we've got the file that says that he was discharged undiagnosed.
Speaker 1: So it's really interesting that three weeks after being discharged undiagnosed,
Speaker 1: they were confident enough to say it was gallbladder cancer. Now,
Speaker 1: to give you an idea, gall bladder cancer is extremely rare,
Speaker 1: extremely rare. And I took Harry's files to two forensic
Speaker 1: pathologists and their opinion was that without an autopsy, you
Speaker 1: can't say that it was gallbladder cancer. And in fact,
Speaker 1: at the time the doctors who were then investigated by
Speaker 1: military intelligence and external affairs said well, we think he
Speaker 1: had a problem with his throat, but we're confident was
Speaker 1: gall bladder cancer, but we can't really link the cancer.
Speaker 1: So the throat problem, it was all very unusual, and
Speaker 1: you think, well, why was this unusual diagnosis given? But
Speaker 1: then you think what the repercussions were. The Australian government
Speaker 1: had leaked his identity as an intelligence agent. They then
Speaker 1: sent him to Japan, and then he'd been attacked and
Speaker 1: he's died of those injuries. Now, the last sort of
Speaker 1: words that Harry's recorded as saying was that they got me.
Speaker 1: And he finally on his deathbed told the men around
Speaker 1: him that he'd been grotted. And so after he dies
Speaker 1: and they get this sort of deathityatet saying god bladder cancer,
Speaker 1: his wife, Harriet writes to the government said this isn't true.
Speaker 1: He was attacked, you know, he was attacked and he
Speaker 1: was killed and he told us this, but he was
Speaker 1: never believed. His final words they got me were never believed,
Speaker 1: and the government stuck to the story that he died
Speaker 1: of godbladder cancer. They also said that he never worked
Speaker 1: as an intelligence agent, that he was just an interpreter.
Speaker 1: So you can see this real sort of muddying of
Speaker 1: the waters from the austraa In government. All that his
Speaker 1: wife was asking for was a burial and a headstone.
Speaker 1: Now the government paid for the plot of land, but
Speaker 1: they never gave him a headstone, which to me just
Speaker 1: seemed remarkable that this man had lived this remarkable life.
Speaker 1: Was his service was always denied by the Australian government.
Speaker 1: He served in World War Two. They denied that they
Speaker 1: were responsible for how he was killed. And I think
Speaker 1: there's definite responsibility there in one leaking his identity and
Speaker 1: then sending him.
Speaker 2: Still, we'll be back after a short break to find
Speaker 2: out what happened next, So stay with us. So those
Speaker 2: final words they got me was that to his wife Harriet.
Speaker 1: They were to his final words they got me were
Speaker 1: to his wife Harriet and five other people standing around
Speaker 1: his bedside.
Speaker 2: Ah okay, and the fact that he was a spy,
Speaker 2: so that's not acknowledged. For example, his biography on the
Speaker 2: mini biography, on his Australian War Memorial biography, that's not
Speaker 2: mentioned there is it, for example, no that talks about
Speaker 2: his service at Gallipoli, but there's no mentions career.
Speaker 1: So my purpose in writing this book was trying to
Speaker 1: get the Australian government to recognize that Harry Frame had
Speaker 1: served his country and was deserving of an official he
Speaker 1: died in service, or he died in connection to his
Speaker 1: service and was worthy of receiving the official war commemoration headstone.
Speaker 1: That's what I was trying to do, gather information to
Speaker 1: do that, because they'd never They just said he died
Speaker 1: and if your death isn't connected to your service, you
Speaker 1: don't get the little ADF badge on your grave. And
Speaker 1: I thought that badge meant a lot to Harry and
Speaker 1: it would have been good.
Speaker 3: That he had it.
Speaker 1: So that's what I set out to try to do.
Speaker 1: And I'm not the first because in nineteen sixty three,
Speaker 1: his wife Harriet wrote to Robert Menzies and basically told
Speaker 1: him the story that I've told you today about Harry
Speaker 1: and his service and his time in Tokyo. And they
Speaker 1: went back and said, no, he died of gallbladder cancer,
Speaker 1: unconnected to his service. There's nothing we can do for him.
Speaker 1: He didn't you know, he doesn't deserve a headstone. In
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, another author, Brian Tate, who'd written about Harry,
Speaker 1: he contacted the government and they said, well, he died
Speaker 1: of gallbladder cancer. There's nothing we can do. So it
Speaker 1: was the same story. I was a little bit more fortunate,
Speaker 1: but again it's they never the government said yes, he
Speaker 1: died because of his service, but not because he was
Speaker 1: garrotted or strangled in Japan. They say he died of
Speaker 1: gallbladder cancer, which was caused from smoking. Oh. Interesting, now,
Speaker 1: the ANZACs were given cigarettes in their rations, and Harry
Speaker 1: was a smoker. And so I received this determination from
Speaker 1: the Veterans Affairs Department and they said, we've reviewed the case.
Speaker 1: We're going to give him a gravestone because we can
Speaker 1: connect his service to his death through and to me,
Speaker 1: it left a bit of taste because I didn't want
Speaker 1: them to do it that way. I wanted them to
Speaker 1: admit that he didn't die of gored bladder cancer. He
Speaker 1: was strangled as an intelligence agent and he died of
Speaker 1: that serving Australia. He wasn't just an interpreter. Yes, the
Speaker 1: cover was he was an interpreter, but he's actually working
Speaker 1: as an intelligence agent. And if you think of how
Speaker 1: the US honor their intelligence agents, you know, to get
Speaker 1: the star on the wall at Langley for their men
Speaker 1: that have died in service.
Speaker 3: Harry didn't get a star. He didn't even get a headstone.
Speaker 1: However, they have now said yes he will get it,
Speaker 1: and they've put up a plaque in honor of Harry
Speaker 1: frame at the Rookwood Cemetery.
Speaker 2: So Ryan tell us more about how Harry has been remembered.
Speaker 1: So when I first read about Harry, the story was
Speaker 1: that he was in an unmarked grave in Macquarie Cemetery
Speaker 1: in North Sydney, and so I went up and visited it.
Speaker 1: And when I got there, there's actually a little black
Speaker 1: marble headstone and it's only small, and I looked at it,
Speaker 1: but there were details on the headstone that were incorrect.
Speaker 1: Harry's date of birth was incorrect, and it also had
Speaker 1: his daughter Grace her birth day and her date of death,
Speaker 1: and the date of death was also incorrect. It was
Speaker 1: out by about thirty years. And so I went in
Speaker 1: and I said, well, who put this headstone here? And
Speaker 1: they said, no, we don't know. We've got no record.
Speaker 1: Maybe someone's just walked in and put it there, which
Speaker 1: to me seemed a bit strange, so I left it.
Speaker 1: Later on, when the Wargraves Commission said they will put
Speaker 1: a commemorative headstone on Harry's grave, they have a condition,
Speaker 1: and the condition is that there can be no existing
Speaker 1: headstone on the grave. And so of course I had
Speaker 1: a problem that there was now a headstone on there,
Speaker 1: even though it was incorrect, but they wouldn't touch it
Speaker 1: as long as that headstone was there. So I went
Speaker 1: back to the cemetery. I said, look, I really need
Speaker 1: to find out who put this headstone on there, because
Speaker 1: we need to remove it so that the Wargraves can
Speaker 1: put their proper one on there. And they dug and
Speaker 1: dug and dug, and they finally they found out who
Speaker 1: put it in there, and it was actually a man
Speaker 1: by the name of Malcolm frem Ah, and he'd come
Speaker 1: across Harry's story, and he was obviously a distant relative.
Speaker 1: So he was a descendant of William Henry Frame, so
Speaker 1: Harry's half brother. So when William Henry Freme absconded to Japan,
Speaker 1: he left a little boy in Australia and Malcolm is
Speaker 1: descendant from that little boy.
Speaker 3: Oh wow, yeah, So I'm not sure what the terminology is.
Speaker 1: It's like a distant, distant, distant half uncle maybe something
Speaker 1: like that. So he'd heard Harry's stories. That is not
Speaker 1: right that he has an unmutt grave. So he put
Speaker 1: the headstone. So I contacted Malcolm and Malcolm was great.
Speaker 1: I said, like, this is what we've got to do
Speaker 1: now when you go in to start touching headstones and
Speaker 1: grave sites. Between when Malcolm had put the headstone and
Speaker 1: when I had come along with the Wargraves Commission, the
Speaker 1: laws had changed and now nobody can remove that headstone
Speaker 1: because Malcolm nor I are the owners of the plot
Speaker 1: and so we were unable to remove that existing headstone.
Speaker 1: So instead, what the war Graves Commission does is they
Speaker 1: put a park up in the memorial cemetery which is
Speaker 1: at Rookwood.
Speaker 3: Okay, convoluted.
Speaker 2: And Ryan, what happened to young Harry.
Speaker 1: So after Harry died, the government confiscated his land at
Speaker 1: Kentucky and young Harry had been working on that farm. Now,
Speaker 1: obviously Harry died in May. In October, the government said
Speaker 1: you haven't been paying your debt, and so they took
Speaker 1: the farm off young Harry. So he went into the
Speaker 1: army and he went down to Duntroon in the officer school.
Speaker 1: He was a remarkable man, young Harry. He was like
Speaker 1: an amazing cricketer, amazing rugby player. He holds the record
Speaker 1: for the most tries in a rugby match for dun Trouon.
Speaker 1: He graduated first in class from Duntroun and he got
Speaker 1: sent to fight the Japanese in Borneo. And he always
Speaker 1: blamed the Japanese for his father's death, and he said
Speaker 1: they're going to be paid back in kind.
Speaker 3: And so he could have had an easy job. You know.
Speaker 1: This was in May of nineteen forty five. He goes
Speaker 1: up to Borneo, distinguished himself in battle in his first contact,
Speaker 1: and then he had his was from a tooth problem
Speaker 1: as a saw tooth, and he gets sent back to
Speaker 1: the field hospital and that night, this is on May eight,
Speaker 1: so it's the day that victory was declared in Europe,
Speaker 1: but obviously not in Borneo. On May eight, a Japanese
Speaker 1: soldier infiltrated the field hospital and threw a grenade under
Speaker 1: his bed and killed him. And it was goodness, it's
Speaker 1: just such a waste of a life, as so many
Speaker 1: for those young men. But he was such a brilliant
Speaker 1: academic athlete, and he was also killed by the Japanese.
Speaker 2: Ah my goodness, what a tragedy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1: And then so then only left then was Gracie Young,
Speaker 1: Gracie Frame. And so she'd lost, you know, within a
Speaker 1: couple of years and a six year period, she'd lost
Speaker 1: her stepmother, she'd lost her father, and she lost her brother,
Speaker 1: and she lived to quite an old age. She passed
Speaker 1: away in twenty nineteen. So that was the story. And
Speaker 1: then she was the last descendant directly from Harry.
Speaker 2: And just finally, Ryan, how would you like Australians to
Speaker 2: remember Harry frem.
Speaker 3: As the marvel of Gallipoli?
Speaker 1: I think he it's such a great So I think
Speaker 1: we have a lot of stories about who we are
Speaker 1: that come from Gallipoli, and I think I think what
Speaker 1: Harry showed was that those men you know the other
Speaker 1: soldiers that they took him for who he was and
Speaker 1: for what he could do, you know, his bravery. They
Speaker 1: didn't care how he talked and think what we looked like.
Speaker 1: And I think that's a real instructive lesson for Australia
Speaker 1: that we have these remarkable men in our history who
Speaker 1: have done remarkable things for the country, and I think
Speaker 1: it's important that we remember them and that we don't
Speaker 1: get falled into thinking about these myths. You know, the
Speaker 1: ans at the classic white Bushmen Anzac because there were
Speaker 1: a lot of different men, a lot of different colors,
Speaker 1: from a lot of different backgrounds were fighting on Gallipoli
Speaker 1: and there was Maori troops, there was indigenous soldiers that
Speaker 1: were Indian, and Sikh troops. You know, the French troops
Speaker 1: were from the African colonies of black Africans.
Speaker 3: So I think the.
Speaker 1: Story of Harry Free is, you know, let's embrace all
Speaker 1: these different types of Australian and let's look at people
Speaker 1: for who they are and what they can do. I
Speaker 1: think it makes us a bigger and better country when
Speaker 1: we do that.
Speaker 2: So true and your book The Bravest Scout at Gillipli
Speaker 2: is out now, congratulations and thank you so much for
Speaker 2: sharing the story with us today.
Speaker 3: Thanks very much for having me Jen.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. This has been In Black and White,
Speaker 2: a podcast about some of Australia's forgotten characters, written and
Speaker 2: hosted by me Jen Kelly, edited by Phoebe Zukowski, and
Speaker 2: produced by John ty Burton. You can find all the
Speaker 2: stories and photos associated with our episodes at Heraldsun dot
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