1 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 1: Now as soon as that appointment was announced, and you 2 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: got to remember at this stage Harry now has three jobs, 3 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 1: but none of the different departments in the Australian government 4 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:12,959 Speaker 1: know that Harry's working for the others. 5 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:16,599 Speaker 2: I'm Jen Kelly from the Herald Son and this is 6 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,599 Speaker 2: in Black and White, a podcast about some of Australia's 7 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:23,599 Speaker 2: forgotten characters. Welcome back for part two of the story 8 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 2: of Harry Freme, the Marvel of Gallipoli. Make sure you 9 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 2: listen to part one first, we're speaking again with Ryan Butter, 10 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 2: the author of a new book called The Bravest Scout 11 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 2: at Gallipoli. We'll hear soon what Harry did in the 12 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 2: Second World War, including being sent to Japan as a spy, 13 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 2: and why Ryan describes Harry as the Anzac hero portrayed 14 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 2: by his nation. As we heard in part one, Harry 15 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 2: Freme showed incredible bravery in the First World War, but 16 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 2: struggled during the tough years of the Depression while raising 17 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 2: a family. Let's jump back in and find out what 18 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 2: happened next and was Harry still held in high esteem 19 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 2: for the incredible things that he had done at Gallipoli 20 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 2: by the wider community. 21 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:24,759 Speaker 1: He was held in really high esteem by the ex soldiers. 22 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:27,960 Speaker 1: So there's a magazine called Revel which came out in 23 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty one, and Harry's on the front cover, and 24 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: that magazine went out to all the X diggers, and 25 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: you know, there was seven pages dedicated to his exploits 26 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: on Gallipoli. He would go around and talk about the war, 27 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: and there was always sort of excitement in the newspapers 28 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 1: that Harry Freme's coming. He's going to be talking, you know, 29 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: telling stories of the war. So that was always he 30 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: was very much loved by it, never forgotten by his comrades. 31 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: But in that Revelve magazine, it was a really interesting 32 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: line and it was written in nineteen thirty one, so 33 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: it's twelve years after they came back, and it says that, 34 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: you know, twelve years later, the memories of Gallipoli are 35 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: fading for everybody, and so you can see how quickly 36 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:10,919 Speaker 1: things were being forgotten. Now, obviously today you think, wow, 37 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:12,959 Speaker 1: how could that ever be forgotten? But in that time 38 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: set of ten fifteen years after it happened, there was 39 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: this fear that what these men had gone through would 40 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:18,239 Speaker 1: be forgotten. 41 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 2: Now take us forward to the second World War and 42 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 2: the very significant events involving Harry. 43 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 1: So by the outbreak of the Second World War in 44 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 1: September of nineteen thirty nine, Harry is in a desperate situation. 45 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: His farmers failed, there's no fruit, he can't pay off 46 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: the debt. Four days after the Second World War breaks out, 47 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: Edith May dies oh and Harry's left absolutely distraught. So 48 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: now he has two children to raise by himself. He's broke, 49 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: the farms failed. He tries to enlist in the army 50 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: and he's told he's too old, so he can't enlist. 51 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 1: So he goes back to his contacts in intelligence and 52 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:00,519 Speaker 1: it's unsure if they contact him or he takes them, 53 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: but he gets a letter from a man called Jack Scott. 54 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: Jack Scott's a really interesting character in the whole Harry 55 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: frame story. Jack Scott was also a GLIPI veteran. He 56 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:12,799 Speaker 1: came back to Australia. He helped set up Legacy, the 57 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:15,360 Speaker 1: charity Legacy, but he was also a member of a 58 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: thing called the Old Guard, which was a right wing 59 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: group set up and had about thirty thousand X diggers 60 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: involved in it, and it was to you know, sort 61 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 1: of promote the values and be a ball walk against 62 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,679 Speaker 1: Bolshevism back in Australia during the nineteen twenties and early thirties. 63 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: That kind of fades away in around nineteen thirty one 64 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: ninety thirty two and Jack Scott becomes an absolute ardent 65 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: admirer of Japan. And so throughout the nineteen thirties, Jack 66 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 1: Scott's writing all these pro Japanese articles, he visits Japan, 67 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: he's part of the Australian japan society. He's almost it's 68 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: almost propaganda. In nineteen thirty five, as Japan starts to 69 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 1: emerge as another real threat to Australia, Jack Scott is 70 00:03:56,160 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 1: recruited into military intelligence and it's really unclear through the 71 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: files if he was a sympathizer still with Japan, because 72 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 1: the intelligence were actually focusing on the Japanese community in 73 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 1: Australia and it's really hard to see what side Jack 74 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: Scott was on. But he recruits Harry Frem and he 75 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: becomes Harry Frem's handler because there was a lot of 76 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: Japanese in New South Wales and Australia, and the Australian 77 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: intelligence community were unsure how these men and women of 78 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 1: Japan would react if Japan declared war on Australia, so 79 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: they wanted to keep a close eye on them. They 80 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: mapped where they all lived, they registered where they all lived, 81 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: and they actually had people tailing them. 82 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 3: Harry Frem was recruited to spy on. 83 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: The Japanese community in Sydney, and so he came down 84 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,479 Speaker 1: from Kentucky and he set himself up in Sydney. Not 85 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: long after getting to Sydney, he then gets recruited by censorship. 86 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: So he was then going through the mail that the 87 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 1: Japanese people were sending back or was coming to Australia 88 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 1: trying to find intelligence information. So he's gone from working 89 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: on a failed farm to the outbreak of World War two, 90 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden he's got two jobs. That's 91 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: in August of nineteen forty. In September of nineteen forty, 92 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: he's then recruited by external affairs. Because what happened then 93 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: was that Australia decided they couldn't stop war with Japan. 94 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:15,600 Speaker 1: They kind of felt that war with Japan was inevitable, 95 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: but they thought they could push it down the road 96 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: a little bit further. So they decided to send an 97 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 1: ambassador to Tokyo, and that was a mean called John Latham, 98 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 1: and he was going to go and set up the 99 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: first legation or sort of embassy in Japan for Australia, 100 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 1: and Military Intelligence chose Harry Frame to be the interpreter 101 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:35,359 Speaker 1: to John Latham, who would go to Tokyo with him. Now, 102 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: as soon as that appointment was announced, and you got 103 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 1: to remember at this stage, Harry now has three jobs, 104 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: but none of the different departments in the Australian government 105 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: know that Harry's working for the others. 106 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:47,799 Speaker 3: So incredible. 107 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, So when when External Affairs decide that the military 108 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: intelligence says you should recruit Harry, so external and they 109 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: don't tell him. They don't tell External Affairs that Harry's 110 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 1: already working as a spy. So External affairs to find 111 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 1: Harry and they can't find him because of course he's 112 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: embedded in the Japanese community, he's undercover, he's working. So 113 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: we can't find Harry, and so they so military Intelligence 114 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:13,720 Speaker 1: put External Affairs in touch with Harry. Harry's nomination or 115 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: his appointment as the interpreter is reported in the newspapers, 116 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 1: but at the bottom of the article it says he's 117 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: currently engaged in special defense work. Now this puts a 118 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: huge cat amongst the pigeons. Military Intelligence are furious with 119 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: External Affairs. They blame them for leaking this and they 120 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: write to them. McBride, the Minister of the Army writes 121 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: to black Jack McEwan and says, how has this name 122 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: been leaked out? And his real role has been leaked 123 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 1: to the press, and then External Affairs says, well, everyone 124 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: knows what he's working on. Everyone knows that he's doing this, 125 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: and we actually spoke with the consulate and told them 126 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: this is who we're sending and so there's this. 127 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 3: Massive breach of security, and. 128 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: Military Intelligence says nobody knew that he was working as 129 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:02,280 Speaker 1: an intelligence agent. So Harry is at this point he's 130 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: in Sydney, his cover's been blown. He's starting to be 131 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: followed by Japanese spies in Sydney. And in addition to that, 132 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: because of this fear of Japanese in general, he's also 133 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: been denounced and we've got letters that people have written 134 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 1: to local police denouncing Harry Frame as possibly a Fifth 135 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: columnist obviously you know, a Japanese agent, when in the 136 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: reality is he's actually working for the Australians. So he's 137 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: got a head off to Tokyo, knowing that his cover's 138 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: been blown already, and that filled him with a lot 139 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: of fear. He was horrified because in July, just a 140 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: few months previously, a British agent in Japan, a guy 141 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: called James Cox, had been caught by the Japanese military 142 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: police called the Kempetai and he'd been taken in for 143 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: questioning and then they threw him out of a sixth 144 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 1: story window. They said it was suicide, but it was 145 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: obviously that he was thrown out. So at this point 146 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: in the story, you think, why would Harry go or 147 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: why would they send Harry? But there was this sort 148 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: of bureaucratic bungling between the three agents sees of what 149 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: to do and we didn't leak his name, and no, 150 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 1: you leaked it. But Harry still gets on that boat. 151 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: And that was one of the reason that one of 152 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 1: the reasons I wrote the book, or I started to 153 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 1: really look at Harry's storyer, why would he get on 154 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: that boat? And other people who have written a little 155 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: bit about his history say, it's the Bushido code, it's 156 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 1: the loyal the loyal samurai serving the master, or he 157 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: was obliged to go ok I come to a different conclusion. 158 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: I think he was broke. He had two children to raise, 159 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 1: and I think he thought he could go up there, 160 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: do his job and come back. So he goes up 161 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: to Tokyo. He's not well, he's got stomach problems. Just 162 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 1: before leaving, he remarries, which is really surprising. So less 163 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: than a year after his first wife died, he remarries 164 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,319 Speaker 1: another lady, a nurse, and that's important. He marries a 165 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: nurse in Sydney. But he goes on January twenty seventh, 166 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: he's walking down the street in Tokyo and he gets attacked. 167 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: He gets attacked by the campetite and they try to 168 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: strangle him. Somehow breaks free and he sort of hides 169 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: for a couple of days and then he ends up 170 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 1: in a hospital. He goes to the American hospital, Saint Luke's. 171 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 3: He arrives at the. 172 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:12,959 Speaker 1: Hospital and he finds that the Americans have evacuated all 173 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: of their American doctors and there's only Japanese doctors. And 174 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:19,839 Speaker 1: so he's terrified now to say what's happened to him, 175 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: because they'll either informed the kempatite or the kempt I 176 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 1: will find out and they'll come back and finish the job. 177 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,959 Speaker 1: So he says nothing. They do all these tests on 178 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: him and they find that he's got damaged vocal cords. 179 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: He's lost his voice now because obviously he's tried to 180 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: strangle him. He doesn't say anything to anyone, he doesn't 181 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:41,079 Speaker 1: say anything to his other co workers at the Australian legation, 182 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 1: and he gets sent back to Australia. So he arrives 183 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: back in Australia in April and he's completely broken man 184 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 1: because he can hardly eat, he can hardly swallow, and 185 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 1: his throats mangled. And they put him in hospital in 186 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,560 Speaker 1: Sydney and they have all these doctors come and visit him, 187 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 1: and eventually they have a throat specialist come and this 188 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: is all important information about the throat. But they have 189 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 1: a throat specialists come and no one can work out 190 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: what's wrong with him, and he's still not saying what 191 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: happened to him. Eventually they said, look, we can't do 192 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: anything for him. He's going to die. He's better off 193 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: being at home and dying with his family. So he's 194 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 1: released in early May, back back to the care of 195 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: his wife, Harriet, who's a nurse, and when he's discharged 196 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: from hospital, his file says undiagnosed, so they could never 197 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: find out what was wrong with him. A few weeks later, 198 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: on twenty seven May, he dies. He dies choking on 199 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 1: his own mucus in the arms of Harriet. This immediately 200 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:45,359 Speaker 1: sets off a flurry of activity among external affairs military intelligence, 201 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 1: and they're trying to call the doctors. They're trying to 202 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: get hold of the death certificate, find out what happened 203 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 1: to him. When the death certificate finally surfaces, it says 204 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: that he died of gorebladder cancer. Now, this is really 205 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: tentious point historically, and the number of people have looked 206 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: at this. Now I took Harry's We've got really good 207 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: files on Harry. We've got his medical files from Tokyo. 208 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 1: When he was first interned in the hospital there, they 209 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: did a lot of tests on him, blood test, X rays, 210 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: no hint of cancer, no hint of gad bladder cancer. 211 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 1: When he came back, we've got his repat file and 212 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: we've got the file that says that he was discharged undiagnosed. 213 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 1: So it's really interesting that three weeks after being discharged undiagnosed, 214 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,199 Speaker 1: they were confident enough to say it was gallbladder cancer. Now, 215 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: to give you an idea, gall bladder cancer is extremely rare, 216 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 1: extremely rare. And I took Harry's files to two forensic 217 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: pathologists and their opinion was that without an autopsy, you 218 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,560 Speaker 1: can't say that it was gallbladder cancer. And in fact, 219 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 1: at the time the doctors who were then investigated by 220 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:55,199 Speaker 1: military intelligence and external affairs said well, we think he 221 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: had a problem with his throat, but we're confident was 222 00:11:57,280 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: gall bladder cancer, but we can't really link the cancer. 223 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: So the throat problem, it was all very unusual, and 224 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: you think, well, why was this unusual diagnosis given? But 225 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: then you think what the repercussions were. The Australian government 226 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: had leaked his identity as an intelligence agent. They then 227 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 1: sent him to Japan, and then he'd been attacked and 228 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: he's died of those injuries. Now, the last sort of 229 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: words that Harry's recorded as saying was that they got me. 230 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: And he finally on his deathbed told the men around 231 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 1: him that he'd been grotted. And so after he dies 232 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 1: and they get this sort of deathityatet saying god bladder cancer, 233 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: his wife, Harriet writes to the government said this isn't true. 234 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: He was attacked, you know, he was attacked and he 235 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 1: was killed and he told us this, but he was 236 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 1: never believed. His final words they got me were never believed, 237 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:49,839 Speaker 1: and the government stuck to the story that he died 238 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: of godbladder cancer. They also said that he never worked 239 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 1: as an intelligence agent, that he was just an interpreter. 240 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: So you can see this real sort of muddying of 241 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: the waters from the austraa In government. All that his 242 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: wife was asking for was a burial and a headstone. 243 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 1: Now the government paid for the plot of land, but 244 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,559 Speaker 1: they never gave him a headstone, which to me just 245 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: seemed remarkable that this man had lived this remarkable life. 246 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: Was his service was always denied by the Australian government. 247 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: He served in World War Two. They denied that they 248 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 1: were responsible for how he was killed. And I think 249 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 1: there's definite responsibility there in one leaking his identity and 250 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: then sending him. 251 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 2: Still, we'll be back after a short break to find 252 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 2: out what happened next, So stay with us. So those 253 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 2: final words they got me was that to his wife Harriet. 254 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 1: They were to his final words they got me were 255 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: to his wife Harriet and five other people standing around 256 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:54,119 Speaker 1: his bedside. 257 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 2: Ah okay, and the fact that he was a spy, 258 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 2: so that's not acknowledged. For example, his biography on the 259 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 2: mini biography, on his Australian War Memorial biography, that's not 260 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 2: mentioned there is it, for example, no that talks about 261 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 2: his service at Gallipoli, but there's no mentions career. 262 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 1: So my purpose in writing this book was trying to 263 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: get the Australian government to recognize that Harry Frame had 264 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: served his country and was deserving of an official he 265 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: died in service, or he died in connection to his 266 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 1: service and was worthy of receiving the official war commemoration headstone. 267 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: That's what I was trying to do, gather information to 268 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: do that, because they'd never They just said he died 269 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: and if your death isn't connected to your service, you 270 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: don't get the little ADF badge on your grave. And 271 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: I thought that badge meant a lot to Harry and 272 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: it would have been good. 273 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 3: That he had it. 274 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: So that's what I set out to try to do. 275 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: And I'm not the first because in nineteen sixty three, 276 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: his wife Harriet wrote to Robert Menzies and basically told 277 00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: him the story that I've told you today about Harry 278 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: and his service and his time in Tokyo. And they 279 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: went back and said, no, he died of gallbladder cancer, 280 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: unconnected to his service. There's nothing we can do for him. 281 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 1: He didn't you know, he doesn't deserve a headstone. In 282 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, another author, Brian Tate, who'd written about Harry, 283 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: he contacted the government and they said, well, he died 284 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 1: of gallbladder cancer. There's nothing we can do. So it 285 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: was the same story. I was a little bit more fortunate, 286 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: but again it's they never the government said yes, he 287 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: died because of his service, but not because he was 288 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: garrotted or strangled in Japan. They say he died of 289 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 1: gallbladder cancer, which was caused from smoking. Oh. Interesting, now, 290 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: the ANZACs were given cigarettes in their rations, and Harry 291 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: was a smoker. And so I received this determination from 292 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 1: the Veterans Affairs Department and they said, we've reviewed the case. 293 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: We're going to give him a gravestone because we can 294 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: connect his service to his death through and to me, 295 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: it left a bit of taste because I didn't want 296 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: them to do it that way. I wanted them to 297 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: admit that he didn't die of gored bladder cancer. He 298 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: was strangled as an intelligence agent and he died of 299 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: that serving Australia. He wasn't just an interpreter. Yes, the 300 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: cover was he was an interpreter, but he's actually working 301 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: as an intelligence agent. And if you think of how 302 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 1: the US honor their intelligence agents, you know, to get 303 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: the star on the wall at Langley for their men 304 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: that have died in service. 305 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 3: Harry didn't get a star. He didn't even get a headstone. 306 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 1: However, they have now said yes he will get it, 307 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: and they've put up a plaque in honor of Harry 308 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: frame at the Rookwood Cemetery. 309 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 2: So Ryan tell us more about how Harry has been remembered. 310 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 1: So when I first read about Harry, the story was 311 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: that he was in an unmarked grave in Macquarie Cemetery 312 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: in North Sydney, and so I went up and visited it. 313 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: And when I got there, there's actually a little black 314 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: marble headstone and it's only small, and I looked at it, 315 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: but there were details on the headstone that were incorrect. 316 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 1: Harry's date of birth was incorrect, and it also had 317 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: his daughter Grace her birth day and her date of death, 318 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: and the date of death was also incorrect. It was 319 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 1: out by about thirty years. And so I went in 320 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:07,919 Speaker 1: and I said, well, who put this headstone here? And 321 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: they said, no, we don't know. We've got no record. 322 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 1: Maybe someone's just walked in and put it there, which 323 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:14,239 Speaker 1: to me seemed a bit strange, so I left it. 324 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 1: Later on, when the Wargraves Commission said they will put 325 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 1: a commemorative headstone on Harry's grave, they have a condition, 326 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: and the condition is that there can be no existing 327 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 1: headstone on the grave. And so of course I had 328 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:30,120 Speaker 1: a problem that there was now a headstone on there, 329 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 1: even though it was incorrect, but they wouldn't touch it 330 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 1: as long as that headstone was there. So I went 331 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: back to the cemetery. I said, look, I really need 332 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: to find out who put this headstone on there, because 333 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: we need to remove it so that the Wargraves can 334 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: put their proper one on there. And they dug and 335 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:45,400 Speaker 1: dug and dug, and they finally they found out who 336 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,640 Speaker 1: put it in there, and it was actually a man 337 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: by the name of Malcolm frem Ah, and he'd come 338 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:56,640 Speaker 1: across Harry's story, and he was obviously a distant relative. 339 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:01,159 Speaker 1: So he was a descendant of William Henry Frame, so 340 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,879 Speaker 1: Harry's half brother. So when William Henry Freme absconded to Japan, 341 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 1: he left a little boy in Australia and Malcolm is 342 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 1: descendant from that little boy. 343 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 3: Oh wow, yeah, So I'm not sure what the terminology is. 344 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:18,119 Speaker 1: It's like a distant, distant, distant half uncle maybe something 345 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 1: like that. So he'd heard Harry's stories. That is not 346 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: right that he has an unmutt grave. So he put 347 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: the headstone. So I contacted Malcolm and Malcolm was great. 348 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 1: I said, like, this is what we've got to do 349 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: now when you go in to start touching headstones and 350 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: grave sites. Between when Malcolm had put the headstone and 351 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: when I had come along with the Wargraves Commission, the 352 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: laws had changed and now nobody can remove that headstone 353 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,360 Speaker 1: because Malcolm nor I are the owners of the plot 354 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 1: and so we were unable to remove that existing headstone. 355 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: So instead, what the war Graves Commission does is they 356 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 1: put a park up in the memorial cemetery which is 357 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: at Rookwood. 358 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 3: Okay, convoluted. 359 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 2: And Ryan, what happened to young Harry. 360 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: So after Harry died, the government confiscated his land at 361 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 1: Kentucky and young Harry had been working on that farm. Now, 362 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:15,640 Speaker 1: obviously Harry died in May. In October, the government said 363 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: you haven't been paying your debt, and so they took 364 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 1: the farm off young Harry. So he went into the 365 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:24,679 Speaker 1: army and he went down to Duntroon in the officer school. 366 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 1: He was a remarkable man, young Harry. He was like 367 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: an amazing cricketer, amazing rugby player. He holds the record 368 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 1: for the most tries in a rugby match for dun Trouon. 369 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 1: He graduated first in class from Duntroun and he got 370 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 1: sent to fight the Japanese in Borneo. And he always 371 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,400 Speaker 1: blamed the Japanese for his father's death, and he said 372 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 1: they're going to be paid back in kind. 373 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,679 Speaker 3: And so he could have had an easy job. You know. 374 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: This was in May of nineteen forty five. He goes 375 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:58,680 Speaker 1: up to Borneo, distinguished himself in battle in his first contact, 376 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:01,199 Speaker 1: and then he had his was from a tooth problem 377 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 1: as a saw tooth, and he gets sent back to 378 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: the field hospital and that night, this is on May eight, 379 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 1: so it's the day that victory was declared in Europe, 380 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: but obviously not in Borneo. On May eight, a Japanese 381 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 1: soldier infiltrated the field hospital and threw a grenade under 382 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:19,360 Speaker 1: his bed and killed him. And it was goodness, it's 383 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 1: just such a waste of a life, as so many 384 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 1: for those young men. But he was such a brilliant 385 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 1: academic athlete, and he was also killed by the Japanese. 386 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 2: Ah my goodness, what a tragedy. 387 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely. 388 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 1: And then so then only left then was Gracie Young, 389 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 1: Gracie Frame. And so she'd lost, you know, within a 390 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 1: couple of years and a six year period, she'd lost 391 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: her stepmother, she'd lost her father, and she lost her brother, 392 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 1: and she lived to quite an old age. She passed 393 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 1: away in twenty nineteen. So that was the story. And 394 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: then she was the last descendant directly from Harry. 395 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,200 Speaker 2: And just finally, Ryan, how would you like Australians to 396 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 2: remember Harry frem. 397 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 3: As the marvel of Gallipoli? 398 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: I think he it's such a great So I think 399 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: we have a lot of stories about who we are 400 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: that come from Gallipoli, and I think I think what 401 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: Harry showed was that those men you know the other 402 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 1: soldiers that they took him for who he was and 403 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:19,919 Speaker 1: for what he could do, you know, his bravery. They 404 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: didn't care how he talked and think what we looked like. 405 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:26,360 Speaker 1: And I think that's a real instructive lesson for Australia 406 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: that we have these remarkable men in our history who 407 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:32,199 Speaker 1: have done remarkable things for the country, and I think 408 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 1: it's important that we remember them and that we don't 409 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 1: get falled into thinking about these myths. You know, the 410 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:43,439 Speaker 1: ans at the classic white Bushmen Anzac because there were 411 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:45,880 Speaker 1: a lot of different men, a lot of different colors, 412 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 1: from a lot of different backgrounds were fighting on Gallipoli 413 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 1: and there was Maori troops, there was indigenous soldiers that 414 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: were Indian, and Sikh troops. You know, the French troops 415 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: were from the African colonies of black Africans. 416 00:21:58,040 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 3: So I think the. 417 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: Story of Harry Free is, you know, let's embrace all 418 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:06,639 Speaker 1: these different types of Australian and let's look at people 419 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: for who they are and what they can do. I 420 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 1: think it makes us a bigger and better country when 421 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 1: we do that. 422 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:15,160 Speaker 2: So true and your book The Bravest Scout at Gillipli 423 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,919 Speaker 2: is out now, congratulations and thank you so much for 424 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:19,399 Speaker 2: sharing the story with us today. 425 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 3: Thanks very much for having me Jen. 426 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. This has been In Black and White, 427 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 2: a podcast about some of Australia's forgotten characters, written and 428 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 2: hosted by me Jen Kelly, edited by Phoebe Zukowski, and 429 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 2: produced by John ty Burton. You can find all the 430 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 2: stories and photos associated with our episodes at Heraldsun dot 431 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 2: com dot au slash i be aw. If you've enjoyed 432 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 2: this podcast, we'd love you to leave a five star 433 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 2: rating on Apple Podcasts. Even better, leave a review. It's 434 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 2: one simple way you can help us get the word 435 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,880 Speaker 2: out to more listeners. Any comments or questions please email 436 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 2: me at In Black and White at Heraldsun dot com 437 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 2: dot au. 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