Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life. The average person has never
Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world. Today,
Speaker 1: I had a fascinating conversation with Australian journalist Cheng Lei,
Speaker 1: who was detained for years in the Chinese prison for
Speaker 1: supposedly endangering China's national security. We talked about life, her career,
Speaker 1: and the inhumane treatment she suffered whilst in uted. Chang
Speaker 1: Lai amaze me not only by a resilience but a
Speaker 1: sense of humor in the face of adversity. Have her
Speaker 1: listen to a story and you'll understand what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1: She's a very cool lady with a good take on life.
Speaker 1: Chang Lai, I'm excited to have you on the podcast. Hi.
Speaker 2: Gary, it's a privilege to be here and meet you
Speaker 2: because I read your book while in detention and shared
Speaker 2: it with my cell mates.
Speaker 1: Well, that's very cool. We might talk about that a
Speaker 1: little bit later on, but I'm glad I catch Kill
Speaker 1: has found its way into a cell in China.
Speaker 2: A place so secret you can't google a picture.
Speaker 1: Well, there you go. I should have put a file
Speaker 1: or something in the book for you to help you escape.
Speaker 1: At twenty twenty, I, like everyone else in this country,
Speaker 1: heard about your arrest and being detained in China, and
Speaker 1: I remember thinking that would probably be the worst place
Speaker 1: you'd want to be, caught up in a system, a
Speaker 1: system that we don't fully understand, in a communist country
Speaker 1: in prison. How was it for you?
Speaker 2: Well, I experienced all the power that the Chinese state
Speaker 2: has firsthand, and as you say, it's I don't know
Speaker 2: if it's the worst. I haven't been in jail in
Speaker 2: Russia or Cuba or Venezuela or maybe other countries or
Speaker 2: North Korea. But as far as I know, it's probably
Speaker 2: that ultimate mix of extreme organization, extreme paranoia, and a
Speaker 2: unique insight into what tortures people mentally, because that's what
Speaker 2: you're talking about with state security incarceration. It's about breaking
Speaker 2: your mind as opposed to breaking your body, which for foreigners,
Speaker 2: I don't think that would happen any physical violence.
Speaker 1: So and we will talk about what you were put through,
Speaker 1: and it was so logical torture of the extreme, I
Speaker 1: would suggest, But it's also what we've had on eye
Speaker 1: catch killers. And I'm sure you know them. Sean Turnbull
Speaker 1: and Kylie Moore.
Speaker 2: Gilbert my good friends. Imagine elite club of jailbirds.
Speaker 1: I'd love to be at the dinner party with you.
Speaker 1: You you international spies, a lot.
Speaker 2: Of prison envy. What you had tea in you run
Speaker 2: so jealous.
Speaker 1: So you compare it comparing those a little bit. I
Speaker 1: found with both, and both Sean and Kylie that the
Speaker 1: way that they caped I was quite amazed. And I
Speaker 1: finished finished your book and again reading a lot of
Speaker 1: light red well the Human Spirit, and that's what came
Speaker 1: across in your book, The Human Spirit. How all these
Speaker 1: things set up to break you, but you you're still
Speaker 1: hanging in there, and maintain you umanity too. I think
Speaker 1: that would be difficult.
Speaker 2: I think it's better to focus on other people rather
Speaker 2: than yourself all the time, so not eaten up by
Speaker 2: the misery. When I tried to empathize with the guards,
Speaker 2: when I even tried to see what made the officers tick,
Speaker 2: even when they were interrogating me in the most awful way,
Speaker 2: or when I tried later intertention to help myself mates,
Speaker 2: that really helped me to know that everyone hurts, everyone suffers,
Speaker 2: and if I can make the tiniest bit of difference
Speaker 2: to someone else, then my suffering is eased.
Speaker 1: Easy to say, probably harder to do. I can only
Speaker 1: imagine the frustration of being in prison for something that
Speaker 1: you haven't done and almost feel what you have helpless.
Speaker 1: It'd be screamed shouting the walls.
Speaker 2: Well it's not something I haven't done. They can always
Speaker 2: accuse you of something that you have done and say
Speaker 2: that it is a crime. But what they really wanted
Speaker 2: we still don't know. But as far as the facts
Speaker 2: stack up, is to slap Australia in the face.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And do you think in part what happened to you,
Speaker 1: that was caught up in all the political agendas and
Speaker 1: the bilateral relationships between Australia and China for the time while.
Speaker 2: Because the day in, day out bashing me over the
Speaker 2: head that I am guilty, that what I did was
Speaker 2: so horrible. After a while I did get Stockholm syndrome.
Speaker 2: But later when I saw obviously when I was in there,
Speaker 2: I didn't know anything anything that was happening outside or
Speaker 2: how people felt or what they said or what they did.
Speaker 2: But now looking at everything that's happened, things that were
Speaker 2: revealed to my lawyer, for example, and the dates the
Speaker 2: date on which they started surveiling me, which is three
Speaker 2: days after three or four days after Australia called for
Speaker 2: that inquiry into the source of COVID and China started
Speaker 2: like on that day arrested the ex deputy head at
Speaker 2: the time. He was the deputy head of police, who
Speaker 2: had studied in Australia, who was also the man in
Speaker 2: charge of cleaning up Uhan right and had still had
Speaker 2: family in Australia. So that's that's not a coincidence.
Speaker 1: And it almost sets it up as a bargaining chip
Speaker 1: in a way for negotiations.
Speaker 2: And also maybe paranoia that I was somehow related to
Speaker 2: him and not related but associated with him. And to
Speaker 2: this day, nobody's going to come out and admit why
Speaker 2: exactly they did what they did what they did, but
Speaker 2: the lines of questioning and they must have thought I
Speaker 2: was somehow a spy.
Speaker 1: What with the interrogation.
Speaker 2: Well, now, I mean you've read some of the exchanges
Speaker 2: right like where is your grandma Springvale Cemetery?
Speaker 1: They were clutching at straw as I look from a
Speaker 1: prosecution point of view, trying to find find something something
Speaker 1: on you. But okay, you're not an international spy. Will
Speaker 1: establish that. That's that's the same thing that Kylie said,
Speaker 1: in the same thing that Shaun said.
Speaker 2: And if I am, please send me some money.
Speaker 1: We've actually had an international spy on the on the podcast,
Speaker 1: Jeffrey twice, and he was worked for DGS, the French spy,
Speaker 1: and he never did time in jail, but he actually
Speaker 1: looked like a spy and he can fly a fire,
Speaker 1: a plane and all sorts of things. At times I
Speaker 1: can't even reverse park. I read that in your book,
Speaker 1: but your children captured it on video with your kids,
Speaker 1: and you've also got another one that you probably share
Speaker 1: common not common interest. That's the wrong way common experiences.
Speaker 1: Peter Gressi as well. Yes, it was locked up in
Speaker 1: Egypt for journalists. And I saw his movie on the
Speaker 1: Weekend Correspondent and at the end of the movie they
Speaker 1: talk about I think the figures were in excess of
Speaker 1: four hundred journalists in prison in over forty five countries
Speaker 1: at the moment. So did you consider it an occupational hazard,
Speaker 1: like working as an Australian citizen working in working in China.
Speaker 2: I think when I started working in journalism in China,
Speaker 2: it was a very different vibe, very different period. It
Speaker 2: was two thousand and two and China had just entered
Speaker 2: the wto China wanted all things foreign. It wanted foreign talent,
Speaker 2: it wanted foreign investment, We wanted foreign brands, Yes, absolutely,
Speaker 2: And even the Chinese leader at the time would show
Speaker 2: off his English and sing Elva songs when he went
Speaker 2: to visit the US. That's not to say that there
Speaker 2: was actual a lot of political opening up, but you
Speaker 2: could see seeds here and there, and you could see
Speaker 2: them being allowed to sprout a little before sometimes they
Speaker 2: are quashed. And it was of course we didn't have
Speaker 2: the technology that China didn't have the technology has now
Speaker 2: for the extreme surveillance and the internet censorship. So ironically
Speaker 2: it was a freer time.
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, So in that environment you didn't get the
Speaker 1: sense of some think like what happened to you could
Speaker 1: happen No, because there was a lot of encouragement. Can
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about your life but also your experiences,
Speaker 1: but can we just break down what you're actually convicted of?
Speaker 1: What were the offense? So when we're talking about that,
Speaker 1: people understand exactly the nature of the crime.
Speaker 2: Supplying state secrets to an overseas entity organization.
Speaker 1: And that was in the form of a text message
Speaker 1: or that's where the.
Speaker 2: Which I sent on WeChat and which I never deleted
Speaker 2: because I didn't think it was a state secret. It was.
Speaker 2: It's called the Premier's Work Report, which in Australian terms
Speaker 2: is kind of like the budget, and in it it
Speaker 2: talks about the previous year's economic growth and sets a
Speaker 2: target for the coming year. And in twenty twenty it
Speaker 2: didn't set a target and had a nine million jobs target.
Speaker 2: Those were the eight words that I texted my friend
Speaker 2: who worked at Bloomberg, who is a Chinese citizen. So
Speaker 2: it's an Australian citizen working for a Chinese organization texting
Speaker 2: something to a Chinese citizen working at an American organization,
Speaker 2: thinking that because she helps me and in turn helps
Speaker 2: where I worked, that I help her. And she had
Speaker 2: told me that two of her employed colleagues had been
Speaker 2: let go because they didn't match Voiters in putting out
Speaker 2: that they had sport the previous year.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're basically trying to help a friend and
Speaker 1: there was no malicious intent or no well I had.
Speaker 2: When they asked me what a state secret was at
Speaker 2: the interrogations, I said numbers of rockets defense stuff. That
Speaker 2: was my so so stupid and naive understanding of state security.
Speaker 2: And I now know that is actually comprised of sixteen sectors,
Speaker 2: everything from health to oceans, to culture to economic.
Speaker 1: All considered state secrets. Okay, So that just puts it
Speaker 1: in context what you spent three years in prison for.
Speaker 1: So when people are looking at you, they're not thinking
Speaker 1: they Okay, maybe she's a spy. That's basically what it
Speaker 1: came down to.
Speaker 2: So many Chinese people might actually think that, yeah, well
Speaker 2: then again, I'm just saying that because I have seen
Speaker 2: some very very vitriolic commentary when the press release of
Speaker 2: my book was when that came out, and things like
Speaker 2: I should be shot, I should have been locked up longer.
Speaker 2: I should have my kids taken away from me. That's
Speaker 2: not nice, is that I am a spy and should
Speaker 2: have known that was the cost of being a spy.
Speaker 2: And all this is because China has manipulated the narrative
Speaker 2: in the Chinese language to say that I am a spy.
Speaker 1: And you're you're in a position where you culturally understand
Speaker 1: China because you grew up in China before you came
Speaker 1: across to Australia. You speak the language, so you would
Speaker 1: have had a real sense of it, and you can
Speaker 1: I'm sensing the pain that you're describing describing now. It
Speaker 1: must hurt because I don't think you've got any animosity
Speaker 1: towards China.
Speaker 2: Not at all, And to.
Speaker 1: Have that type of vitriol put out about you when
Speaker 1: you really you support China and it's turned on you,
Speaker 1: it must be hurtful.
Speaker 2: This is the thing people are now completing China with
Speaker 2: the Chinese, with the Chinese regime, and we should be compartmentalizing.
Speaker 2: We shouldn't say, because the regime has done these awful
Speaker 2: things that we should be racist towards Chinese people. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Chinese Australians or overseas Chinese, and we shouldn't be saying
Speaker 2: we can't celebrate the culture. Yeah, but it's a hard
Speaker 2: thing for people to sometimes understand because they will seem entwined.
Speaker 1: Well, the narrative that comes forward China. Yeah, we've got
Speaker 1: a fear of China that this is going on, but
Speaker 1: it's missing the point of the actual people. But you
Speaker 1: understand the people, so you're well placed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I know that many Chinese people are now
Speaker 2: afraid that by talking to me or being my friend,
Speaker 2: they're actually they're actually endangering their businesses or assets or
Speaker 2: their families in China, which is so terrible.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that that must hurt. Let's talk about your upbringing.
Speaker 2: Happier subjects. You're a hard detective.
Speaker 1: It's okay, didn't mean it didn't mean to break you down.
Speaker 1: We talk about your torture or the psychological torture over
Speaker 1: in China, and here I am putting you in an
Speaker 1: interview room again. Yes, but let's just know, Okay, we'll
Speaker 1: take a step back, tell me about your childhood, because
Speaker 1: you had a nice childhood growing up and an interesting
Speaker 1: childhood to tell us about that time in China.
Speaker 2: So when I was born, we were on the cusp
Speaker 2: of ending the Cult Revolution, which basically fucked up China
Speaker 2: big time, and you still see some of those after
Speaker 2: effects now. But China was about to change leaders, Marl
Speaker 2: was about to die, and the living standards were going
Speaker 2: to start to improve. But at the time, my parents
Speaker 2: were earning something like five to six dollars a month,
Speaker 2: and even what they did, where they lived, it was
Speaker 2: all dependent on their families, their lineage. So if you
Speaker 2: had nothing, then that was the best type of family,
Speaker 2: and whereas if your family had either been educated or
Speaker 2: had land or assets, then you were the worst of
Speaker 2: the lot. So that was the whole reversal thanks to Mao.
Speaker 1: Turn it upside down. Do you have fond memories because
Speaker 1: you were there too. You were ten and now you
Speaker 1: talk about swimming in the river and different things, and
Speaker 1: it was almost like a country life that you were living.
Speaker 2: I was in the city, but back then there wasn't
Speaker 2: a lot of difference between the city and the countryside
Speaker 2: in that you ate to meat very rarely. I think
Speaker 2: once a year we would have chicken once or twice.
Speaker 2: I remember once it was because we had guests, a
Speaker 2: special guests. Another time it was because it was Chinese
Speaker 2: New Year and this one chicken, poor chook that got killed.
Speaker 2: You know, everything was cooked and in the choicest bits
Speaker 2: would be given to people who were sick or it
Speaker 2: was just Yeah, you can't imagine the scarcity of anything.
Speaker 2: If you've got a plastic bag, you would wash it
Speaker 2: to reuse it again and again. But that didn't stop
Speaker 2: me from enjoying the childhood because there were always lots
Speaker 2: of kids around and we would just play in nature,
Speaker 2: just find bits of leaves and pretend, you know, playhouse
Speaker 2: with that, or try to find a little beetle tire
Speaker 2: string on it.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to admit to that, but I understand.
Speaker 1: I understand that.
Speaker 2: We didn't hurt it. Very gentle with the thread.
Speaker 1: That type of type of childhood. Now you attend when
Speaker 1: you came across to Australia, tell us about that experience,
Speaker 1: because that would have been a culture shock for you
Speaker 1: big time.
Speaker 2: It was a tsunami. Yeah, getting on the plane in
Speaker 2: Guangzhou in southern China. My mum was scared that we
Speaker 2: had too much luggage, so she made me wear two
Speaker 2: pairs of her jeans. At the time, jeans were a
Speaker 2: new thing in China. They were seen as the ultimate
Speaker 2: fashion statement. Except they were all fled I think they
Speaker 2: were cast offs from developed.
Speaker 1: Countries, seventy stock that we could tell exactly.
Speaker 2: So I was wearing mum's two long jeans and sitting
Speaker 2: on this plane and not knowing what to do at all.
Speaker 2: So when the bits of quantus food came around, Mom
Speaker 2: and I were trying to figure out, like why is
Speaker 2: this meat cold? Why is it unflavored? And not knowing
Speaker 2: that the sachets of salt and pepper were to be opened.
Speaker 2: And then I went to the toilet and I'm so sorry, Quantas,
Speaker 2: but I squatted on the seat.
Speaker 1: That's why they have to bring in those signs toilet.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but this was eighty five for understandable for.
Speaker 1: A ten year old. For a ten year old, what
Speaker 1: it's like you go into another planet, it was yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean I tried to imagine it when when I
Speaker 2: knew I would be going. But back then, what did
Speaker 2: we know of the outside world except that you know,
Speaker 2: there used to be the slogan that US imperialists or
Speaker 2: paper tigers. To a kid, what does that mean?
Speaker 1: Is that good or bad?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I thought gorilla warfare was gorillas fighting when I was
Speaker 1: growing up, so the confused this gorilla warfare. That's a
Speaker 1: bit of a tough fighting gorillas. But anyway, we'll all
Speaker 1: grow up and learn. So your time in Australia, So
Speaker 1: how did you find that you ended up in Brisbane?
Speaker 2: You well, Dad was doing his PhD at Monash to
Speaker 2: my Nash Primary and Secondary and then in the final
Speaker 2: year Dad went to work at the University of Queensland.
Speaker 2: So we all moved up and I did year twelve
Speaker 2: at Intrapilli High in Brisbane.
Speaker 1: Okay, and you.
Speaker 2: What a shock from Melbournian Brisbane.
Speaker 1: Your your father was pushing you into commerce and you
Speaker 1: studying what you were studying was not What was really
Speaker 1: your passion.
Speaker 2: Is that my parents are all very nerdy maths slash
Speaker 2: physics nerdy and they used to make me do problems
Speaker 2: from an early age. I'm traumatized to this day.
Speaker 1: That was again, and I refer to your book because
Speaker 1: I picked up so much about you in the book
Speaker 1: where you're sitting around family time, playing doing the capulus or.
Speaker 2: What became Well, they would be arguing over some problem
Speaker 2: that I couldn't do, and then I'd go, okay, is
Speaker 2: this time for me to go, you know, play for
Speaker 2: a while. Well they get it out, but they, I guess,
Speaker 2: grew up with the understanding that science and technology was
Speaker 2: the way forward for China, so they tried to They
Speaker 2: thought that would be the best for me. And also
Speaker 2: my dad thought Australia, being more racist than it is now,
Speaker 2: that I wouldn't be able to get a job if
Speaker 2: I did an arts or journalism degree.
Speaker 1: And I remember that you were saying in the book
Speaker 1: that your father had concerns that they're not going to
Speaker 1: you want to go in the journalism the country's not
Speaker 1: ready for an Asian journalist and that type of thing.
Speaker 1: But I can understand from a parent's point of view
Speaker 1: what they would have felt at the time. So steered
Speaker 1: you into something that you mainly did for your parents sake.
Speaker 2: And I just thought I'd be able to get a job,
Speaker 2: make money, and then that would look good for my parents. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I didn't really know what I wanted to do actually
Speaker 2: in that way, in terms of a career.
Speaker 1: I'm going to raise it. Then if you don't want
Speaker 1: to talk about it, that's fine. But when you were
Speaker 1: living in Brisbane, you're a victim of a home invasion, Yes,
Speaker 1: you happy to talk about what.
Speaker 2: I do actually through this podcast not to find detective sergeant.
Speaker 2: He was detective sergeant then Dom Mabbot, who worked in
Speaker 2: Brisbane at the time in nineteen ninety four, and really
Speaker 2: thank him.
Speaker 1: No, well, you've certainly paid cuos to him. And what
Speaker 1: was it about that? And I like hearing that, like
Speaker 1: as a former detective, someone that's doing their job well.
Speaker 1: But Dom Mabbot detective that there was a home invasion
Speaker 1: where you were woken up by a man standing over
Speaker 1: your bed with a cigarette lther and a knife, threatening
Speaker 1: to kill you if you make a noise, and then
Speaker 1: kept your hostage.
Speaker 2: Yes, for over an hour while I took him around
Speaker 2: the house looking for money. I took him to the garage.
Speaker 2: He didn't know that I actually did it to wake
Speaker 2: up the dogs. But the dogs didn't even bark when
Speaker 2: they do, they're just very nice dogs. And then to
Speaker 2: my dad's room and where he picked up some stuff.
Speaker 2: But I thought because my dad had a shotgun hidden somewhere.
Speaker 2: I thought it'd be messy if I woke my parents home,
Speaker 2: and I thought he wouldn't do anything to me, But
Speaker 2: I was wrong. So after he found what he could
Speaker 2: find in the house, he raped me in my bed,
Speaker 2: and when I screamed, he put his hand over me,
Speaker 2: and because my room is at the other end versus
Speaker 2: my parents room, they didn't hear. And then he escaped,
Speaker 2: and then I went to wake up my dad, but
Speaker 2: he was so shocked he couldn't speak properly.
Speaker 1: So I picked up the.
Speaker 2: Phone and or I took the phone from him and
Speaker 2: made the call. And then when the police came, I
Speaker 2: went with Don to the police station to give to
Speaker 2: describe the attack and the rapist. But I remember him
Speaker 2: telling me he had a young daughter, and the empathy
Speaker 2: that he showed, the gentleness, Yeah, yeah, it loft such
Speaker 2: a difference.
Speaker 3: First.
Speaker 1: Still, think for something as dramatic as that, if you
Speaker 1: have a police offer so that understands and is empathetic
Speaker 1: towards what you've gone through, it can make a world
Speaker 1: of difference. So full full credit to him, but also
Speaker 1: credit to you and the way that you you came
Speaker 1: through that and taught a bit about yourself, how you
Speaker 1: can handle handle crisis and you, yeah, I'm reluctant to
Speaker 1: even say that a victim, because you're not broken by it.
Speaker 1: You saw him that, you saw the perpetrator get justice
Speaker 1: or the justice in the form of a sentence some
Speaker 1: seven months later, and you gave evidence of these court matter.
Speaker 1: How was that experience for it?
Speaker 2: Actually I didn't get to give evidence because when I
Speaker 2: had already moved to Melbourne to find work, and the
Speaker 2: Queensland Police flew me back to Brisbane for the court hearing,
Speaker 2: and as soon as I appeared, he pleaded guilty.
Speaker 1: Well that's that's even better. Yeah, that's better. But okay,
Speaker 1: well that's a that's a tough thing for anyone to
Speaker 1: happen happen in their life. But I think it demonstrates
Speaker 1: your resolve to always move forward and the strength that
Speaker 1: your share. How long did you spend in the career
Speaker 1: that you didn't particularly want?
Speaker 2: Too long? Five years?
Speaker 1: Then you've decided, Okay, I've paid the dues to my
Speaker 1: parents and now I want to do something that's I'm
Speaker 1: passionate about. What drew you to journalism.
Speaker 2: Well, two things I'm passionate about. One is telling things
Speaker 2: telling the story and then two is using my bilingual advantage.
Speaker 2: And at the time, China was growing really fast and
Speaker 2: Australian businesses were investing there. So I got a job
Speaker 2: as a business analyst with the predecessor or This company
Speaker 2: was taken over by Toll Holdings and they had made
Speaker 2: an investment in Eastern China. So I went there and
Speaker 2: learned so much in just one year.
Speaker 1: Seems like the perfect fit with your background and your skills.
Speaker 2: Accept accept The joint venture was with the very powerful
Speaker 2: state owned power Corporation of that province and to people
Speaker 2: who know China power as in electricity, it's very powerful.
Speaker 1: Okay, if you've got the power, you've got the.
Speaker 2: Power, you do and corrupt, especially back then. Now I
Speaker 2: can't gauge the severity, but the things I saw go on, yeah,
Speaker 2: but still it was super interesting to observe and to
Speaker 2: be a part of. So that's why I then went
Speaker 2: for an interview at the what they call CCTV China
Speaker 2: Central Television because they were just starting up their English channel,
Speaker 2: and that was how I got my start in journalism.
Speaker 1: And did it feel like a good fit for you
Speaker 1: at the time?
Speaker 2: I loved it from day one just going to speak
Speaker 2: to different people and the immediacy of telling what had
Speaker 2: happened and being able to use my business show your parents,
Speaker 2: I know, yeah, yeah, Dad does that.
Speaker 1: Okay, So you moved and lived over there. Relationships, married kids.
Speaker 2: I had married when I was working in Melbourne. My
Speaker 2: first boyfriend whom I met while we were recording educational
Speaker 2: tapes for the Queensland Department of Education, and then we
Speaker 2: moved to Melbourne together. And I'm a people pleaser. I
Speaker 2: shouldn't have married when I felt it was the wrong
Speaker 2: he was. We were just not yeah, not a good fit,
Speaker 2: and I should have broken up before getting married.
Speaker 1: Well, I can tell you, like I shouldn't be seen here.
Speaker 1: I can't judge anyone on relationships. So you explain that
Speaker 1: the way you need to explain it. But I understand
Speaker 1: that that's you had the five years or whatever it
Speaker 1: was and went your separate ways. You're another relationship that
Speaker 1: you had two beautiful kids too, Yes, And what years was? At?
Speaker 1: What stage was that?
Speaker 2: That was after my divorce. So my first husband was
Speaker 2: very stayed and I used to nickname him mister Safety.
Speaker 2: And then of course after that that the rebound relationship
Speaker 2: was somebody. Yeah, and unfortunately that meant abusive, exploitative, and toxic.
Speaker 1: Okay, well, that's not the best.
Speaker 2: Thing about that is, of course, my two beautiful.
Speaker 1: Kids, and when that's Ava and Alex when.
Speaker 2: We were they born twenty nine and twenty eleven.
Speaker 1: Okay, And so your career in journalism, you virtually were
Speaker 1: raising the children as a single mother.
Speaker 2: I was, Yeah, after after a particularly bad bashing by
Speaker 2: my former husband in twenty fifteen.
Speaker 1: Right, okay, well that's it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the kids were four and six.
Speaker 1: Again, I'm sorry to hear that. That's yeah, that's quite lot.
Speaker 2: In a way, perversely, it helped because I used to think,
Speaker 2: if I can be bashed so hard, belted that the
Speaker 2: bronze buckle fell off in the head by somebody who
Speaker 2: was supposed to love and care for me, was the
Speaker 2: father of my kids, then straight just interrogating me and
Speaker 2: putting me through pain is not so hard to fathom.
Speaker 2: And if I can still later on see my ex
Speaker 2: husband and talk to him about raising the kids and
Speaker 2: be cordial and calm, then why can't I get through
Speaker 2: strangers hurting me.
Speaker 1: It's interesting you say that. I think all the little
Speaker 1: parts of our lives that do hear this and that,
Speaker 1: and how we readbound from that? And you don't look
Speaker 1: back and wish any harm on You're not saying I'm
Speaker 1: glad it happened, but it does shape you, and it's
Speaker 1: certainly something I think in the experiences you had would
Speaker 1: have stilled your resolve. In the prison situation that you found.
Speaker 2: Yourself in, yeah, everything that was terrible had prepared me
Speaker 2: for the ultimate terror.
Speaker 1: The biggest test. And I I sit opposite like Kylie
Speaker 1: and Sean and that I don't know how I would
Speaker 1: cope in those environments, like just the situations that you
Speaker 1: found yourself in. It's incredible. But anyway we'll dig into that.
Speaker 2: Don't choose you as a sell mate.
Speaker 1: We'd have some fun in themselves. We'd try and trick
Speaker 1: the guards. I'm also amazed of the ratcunning to get
Speaker 1: around some of some of the rules, because they've got
Speaker 1: it all wide. There is no way you're going to
Speaker 1: break these rules. But you managed to break break some
Speaker 1: of the rules and very cleverly. Your life before before
Speaker 1: you were detained living, where were you living.
Speaker 2: I was living in the central part of Beijing.
Speaker 1: Okay, we'd be the TV station with.
Speaker 2: My kids, so my mum would come over and stay
Speaker 2: half of the year.
Speaker 1: Okay, how old were your kids at that time?
Speaker 2: They were eight and ten. Okay, when we separated in
Speaker 2: February twenty.
Speaker 1: Twenty, all right, and then if correct me if I'm wrong,
Speaker 1: your kids were sent over to visit your mom. Yes,
Speaker 1: and then the dreaded COVID lockdowns. Yeah, and all the
Speaker 1: lockdowns and say you.
Speaker 2: Kid locked its borders. So my kids were on a
Speaker 2: flight to come back on the thirty first of March
Speaker 2: twenty twenty, but that flight got canceled and then nothing
Speaker 2: nobody could come in, well except for officials kids, And.
Speaker 1: There's always a loophole, is it for certain people? Okay,
Speaker 1: that must have been traumatic in itself. It was been
Speaker 1: separated for you.
Speaker 2: Had never been separated from them like that. Yeah, maybe
Speaker 2: you know, for a month when they went to see
Speaker 2: my dad in Perth, or maybe for a day or
Speaker 2: two when I went on business troops, but not like that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: long and not knowing when it would end. So I
Speaker 2: was just going out of my brain every day trying
Speaker 2: to find some way to get them back.
Speaker 1: So how long was it before you had detained the
Speaker 1: kids with trapped for six months. Okay, so you had
Speaker 1: six months without your kids.
Speaker 2: So all in total, I didn't see my kids for
Speaker 2: close to four years.
Speaker 1: That must have been heartbreaking at that age too, like
Speaker 1: so many changes, so many things that go on in
Speaker 1: their lives, yeap, when you were in detention. Who was
Speaker 1: looking after your children?
Speaker 2: My mom was, I was. I would have liked for
Speaker 2: my children to have gone to Perth with my dad
Speaker 2: because my mum is a hoarder and her house I
Speaker 2: don't think kids good for the kids or her way
Speaker 2: of living. But it ended up being that my daughter
Speaker 2: went to boarding school and my son was there for
Speaker 2: the whole time.
Speaker 1: That must be tough, yeah.
Speaker 2: And I would always read the letters to try to
Speaker 2: glean how the kids were doing, yeah, and the ways
Speaker 2: they were coping. And later when I did find out
Speaker 2: some details, it was just heartbreaking around.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can imagine. Okay, I promise not to make
Speaker 1: you cry again. I feel like I mean got you
Speaker 1: and forget about those Chinese interrogators.
Speaker 2: This is good.
Speaker 1: Good cry, Okay, good cry. Tell us about the day
Speaker 1: that you would detained, so we've got a sense of
Speaker 1: your life leading up to it, who you were, and
Speaker 1: I just you probably underplayed it. You were pretty big
Speaker 1: in the journalists. Well, you had some good gigs in
Speaker 1: the media, and yeah, inter viewing Michael Schumacher, covering the
Speaker 1: Rolling Stones concerts and really tough gigs like that. So
Speaker 1: you were struggling. Then your world's turned upside down? How
Speaker 1: did it start? Talk us through that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So August thirteenth, twenty twenty the worst day of
Speaker 2: my life. I was thinking that I would go play
Speaker 2: tennis in the morning, and also I was feeling crook,
Speaker 2: but being me, I'd go and play sport when I
Speaker 2: was cook anyway, thinking it's going to make me better.
Speaker 2: But when I took some painkillers and dozed off, and
Speaker 2: then when I work, I saw all these messages like
Speaker 2: work wanting me to come in right now because the
Speaker 2: head honcho wanted to see me about my pilot for
Speaker 2: a show that's about cooking and eating with ambassadors. And
Speaker 2: I was excited so quickly dressed and went to work,
Speaker 2: thinking about how I'm going to get this show made,
Speaker 2: and I thought it was going to be a one
Speaker 2: on one. But when I pushed open this meeting room door,
Speaker 2: it was just this huge table about twenty people sitting
Speaker 2: around it and I thought, oh, that's odd. Yeah, And
Speaker 2: then the next part was somebody standing up holding a
Speaker 2: badge and said, I'm from the Ministry of State Security
Speaker 2: wanting to investigate you for supplying state secrets to overseas organizations.
Speaker 2: And my bag and phone were taken from me, and
Speaker 2: from then on I was always escorted, even when I
Speaker 2: went to the toilet. So then we drove from the
Speaker 2: TV station to my apartment, and even the building manager
Speaker 2: came out to meet them, so I knew that they
Speaker 2: had worked this all out beforehand, and they filmed me
Speaker 2: going up to my place, and then they started to
Speaker 2: raid my apartment, and they knew exactly where to go,
Speaker 2: so they didn't go to my kids room, or my
Speaker 2: mum's room, or even the living room. They just went
Speaker 2: straight to my bedroom and spent hours while I sat
Speaker 2: in the living room.
Speaker 1: What was going.
Speaker 2: I was in a bit of pain, and I thought, one,
Speaker 2: this must be a mistake, and two, I'm sure I
Speaker 2: can explain this because I haven't done anything wrong and
Speaker 2: I haven't supplied state secrets to overseas organizations. I didn't
Speaker 2: even start to think that it was anything related to
Speaker 2: bilatual relations. I just thought this will be a little adventure,
Speaker 2: something to tell people about a story at the dinner table. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's right, and they got the wrong person. Yeah that's
Speaker 2: why when they said, oh, you should turn off the utilities,
Speaker 2: I thought, what why would I bother? I go away
Speaker 2: for two weeks without turning off the electricity and it's
Speaker 2: so stupid.
Speaker 1: And when did you realize this is this is not
Speaker 1: going to be a case of oh, when they leave,
Speaker 1: I'm going to get What was that about? When did
Speaker 1: you realize that you were in real trouble.
Speaker 2: I didn't realize the full extent of what they could
Speaker 2: do to me, or what they could do to anyone. Yeah,
Speaker 2: until months later. For example, even the next day, I thought,
Speaker 2: if I could sit out this day, I would be
Speaker 2: able to get bail or some sort of house arrest.
Speaker 1: Did you under have an understanding of the Chinese system
Speaker 1: or are you more thinking, well, you're more attuned to
Speaker 1: the Australian justice system, where bail and those type of
Speaker 1: protections might be more readily available.
Speaker 2: I don't think I even had a full understanding of
Speaker 2: any judicial system. It wasn't my beating, It's not. Yeah. Sure,
Speaker 2: I read news articles and I know, and I've seen
Speaker 2: too many American legal shows, which is not good preparation
Speaker 2: for Chinese incarceration.
Speaker 1: Doesn't You didn't read me by rights, that's not going to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, give me, give me a quarter to call
Speaker 2: my lawyer.
Speaker 1: So how did you feel like? I know, it's intimidating
Speaker 1: for people when they're placed under arrest and yeah, we're
Speaker 1: used to our freedoms and then have someone and I
Speaker 1: say to look on people's faces when no, you can't
Speaker 1: actually leave the room you've been detained. How did that
Speaker 1: make you feel like someone physically had control of you
Speaker 1: from that point in time.
Speaker 2: To a certain degree. In China, you hear about things happening,
Speaker 2: so you're not entirely bewildered, but still, you know, the
Speaker 2: more things they told me, I couldn't do the it
Speaker 2: was just a very ugly, dawning things like you can't
Speaker 2: put your arm over your eyes, you can't sleep facing
Speaker 2: the wall. Those things you don't think about.
Speaker 1: So you were you were? You're taken from your home, yes,
Speaker 1: and you blindfolded.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: Even that in itself is quite confronting to be blindfolded
Speaker 1: them and walked out in the in the charge of
Speaker 1: someone else, not knowing where you've been taken well.
Speaker 2: When I was blindfolded, I was still in my you
Speaker 2: know way till I tell people about this.
Speaker 1: Oh, then they put the blindfold on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, not knowing you would be you know, another three
Speaker 2: years before I could actually tell that story.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So where were you taken to?
Speaker 2: I was taken to the well at the time, to me,
Speaker 2: it was a secret location. But it's number forty seven
Speaker 2: dahlmannlu Infonte District in Beijing, a place that I really hate.
Speaker 1: It's not the type of place you recommend people visit.
Speaker 2: So it's the facility where they take state secret, not
Speaker 2: state secret, state security. What would you call them suspects
Speaker 2: or yes, aspect it the difference that you're being suspected
Speaker 2: of something.
Speaker 1: A place where they can detain you without having you
Speaker 1: not charged. They can just detain you at that at that.
Speaker 2: Pacil people are often surprised by the different order of
Speaker 2: pain that you experience. In the Chinese system. You get
Speaker 2: the worst first, whereas in Australia, the US jail is
Speaker 2: the worst.
Speaker 1: You get it, that's the end of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but their jail is almost paradise compared to say,
Speaker 2: the first phase, which is RSDLA.
Speaker 1: And what's that stand for?
Speaker 2: RSDL residential surveillance at a designated location, which sounds really benign.
Speaker 1: A lot of interpretations that could be made.
Speaker 2: Yeah, residential. There's nothing residential about having two people stuck
Speaker 2: to you for every minute of the day for six
Speaker 2: months there.
Speaker 1: I think that's just hard to comprehend when you describe
Speaker 1: the conditions that you're in. You're in a small room.
Speaker 1: You've got a bed there, and you've got someone standing
Speaker 1: forty centimeters in front of you, and someone.
Speaker 2: Sitting forty centimeters to your right, to your.
Speaker 1: Right, and at all times twenty four to seven, yes,
Speaker 1: and you're not allowed to talk. You've got to keep
Speaker 1: your eyes open. You've got to sit on the bed
Speaker 1: for thirteen hours a day, and.
Speaker 2: You've got to sit straight. You can't cross your legs
Speaker 2: or ankles, you can't lean against anything, you can't move
Speaker 2: without permission.
Speaker 1: How long did this go on? For?
Speaker 2: Six months? That's the legal limit. Yeah, And many lawyers,
Speaker 2: like conscientious lawyers, have lobbied for that to be abolished
Speaker 2: in China because this is how how you how people
Speaker 2: make cases. Right.
Speaker 1: Psychological torture, Yeah, say anything, break a person, break a person,
Speaker 1: get out of it. And then you get you get
Speaker 1: taken them out for interrogation at their whim. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: what did that involve?
Speaker 2: And under Chinese law, you're not supposed to have the
Speaker 2: place of interrogation on the same premises as the so
Speaker 2: called residential surveillance. But they give a different address to
Speaker 2: the room right next door.
Speaker 1: But they put you in the wheelchair and put the
Speaker 1: blindfold on you and were you down there.
Speaker 2: No, it's right next door, right, Yeah, So that in
Speaker 2: itself is very dodgy.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And you're in a restraint chair, so there's a big
Speaker 2: block of wood that kind of that's locked in front
Speaker 2: of you, so you can't move, you can't get out
Speaker 2: of the chair, and three people video cameras recording someone
Speaker 2: feeding them what to ask you, and every and really
Speaker 2: just looking at every part of your life because they've
Speaker 2: confiscated all all of your electronics.
Speaker 1: How often would you be interrogated.
Speaker 2: In the first month, Probably a dozen times, and then
Speaker 2: it petered off after that because they didn't find anything
Speaker 2: with switch to asked me. They just hit all these
Speaker 2: dead ends.
Speaker 1: Did you think that the insanity would have to come
Speaker 1: to an end at some stage? Could you reach out
Speaker 1: and speak to the embassy at this location. Could you
Speaker 1: speak to your family, could you engage a lawyer?
Speaker 2: No? I mean the embassy came to visit every month,
Speaker 2: and that was a godsend. But it's thirty minutes for
Speaker 2: thirty days, and I often thought there's just not enough
Speaker 2: time to say really important things like where are the
Speaker 2: kids going to be? And what happens to my personal life?
Speaker 2: You can't talk about your case. Of course, they have
Speaker 2: a translator, and they have video cameras, and they have
Speaker 2: all these officers sitting around me, even though it's by
Speaker 2: a video link, and they're actually on the premises, and
Speaker 2: this is another brand of Chinese gratuitus cruelty. Yeah, they
Speaker 2: have to take all these COVID tests to come into
Speaker 2: the detention center, and then the visit is still by
Speaker 2: video link, and we always have to wear masks, so
Speaker 2: you can't even seek any sort of or get any
Speaker 2: sort of comfort from seeing somebody's face, seeing their smile.
Speaker 1: So you've virtually gone from a normal, exciting existence life
Speaker 1: and you've been dropped into this environment, which is sensory deprivation.
Speaker 1: I would imagine not being able to talk, not have
Speaker 1: the freedom to move when you want in the cell.
Speaker 1: Describe the cell to me.
Speaker 2: The cell is padded. In fact, everything is designed to
Speaker 2: prevent self harm or I guess harming others. So thick
Speaker 2: steel sliding doors to lock you in and doorless bathroom. Again,
Speaker 2: the bathroom is padded, and there's no tap, It's only
Speaker 2: a rubber hose. And okay that the tab is set
Speaker 2: within the wall, so you have to put your fingers
Speaker 2: in to turn it, and it's very hard, and obviously
Speaker 2: they're afraid of you wrenching off, for example, a tap
Speaker 2: too to do something. So when it got so bad.
Speaker 3: That people would tell you that I'm like the ultimate
Speaker 3: life lover.
Speaker 2: I love to live.
Speaker 3: But there came a moment when I wanted to die,
Speaker 3: and I thought, how can I do it? The walls
Speaker 3: are soft, right.
Speaker 2: That there's not thing that there's this blue gray carpet.
Speaker 2: But the only thing that was hard was the bathroom tiles.
Speaker 2: And when I'm on the toilet, the guards are watching.
Speaker 2: But I thought if I could just in that moment
Speaker 2: before they grabbed me, if I could smash my head
Speaker 2: against the tiles, Yeah, that.
Speaker 3: Would be some sort of relief because I didn't know
Speaker 3: if I would see my family again, I.
Speaker 1: Can't comprehend the low how you would be feeling too,
Speaker 1: consider consider that and just no privacy, no communication.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you speak like five sentences a day, like
Speaker 2: permission to go to the toilet, permission to go to
Speaker 2: the toilet.
Speaker 1: So you're sitting there with someone standing in front of you,
Speaker 1: standing in front of you, and you got to keep
Speaker 1: your eyes open before you've seen and made this from me,
Speaker 1: which is not nothing big, there's.
Speaker 2: Names really weird.
Speaker 1: Yeah, how how did you occupy your mind and stay
Speaker 1: sane during that? And I asked that genuinely, how do
Speaker 1: you stay sane when that's going on?
Speaker 2: Well? Later I found out that I thought I had
Speaker 2: it bad, but others had it worse. When the Australian
Speaker 2: embassy lobbied on my behalf, I started to get books.
Speaker 1: Yep, in the detention center when in R SDR.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that saved my life. You words cannot describe how
Speaker 2: much of how much solace.
Speaker 1: Some books escapeism for you.
Speaker 2: Like literally I would read very comforting words over and
Speaker 2: over again.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I remember this book by Melbourne author called Belinda Missen.
Speaker 2: She writes some romantic stories, very lighthearted, and she was
Speaker 2: describing this Victorian town and said there was a fish
Speaker 2: and chip shop mhm, and all of a sudden, just
Speaker 2: this rush of longing for azziness, you know.
Speaker 3: So thankfully I had the books, that makes sense.
Speaker 2: But I was on a drip feed. Yeah, so after
Speaker 2: I had read one book, there was if you've got
Speaker 2: thirteen hours, and unfortunately I'm a fast reader, son, then
Speaker 2: what then I'm begging for another book? And I can't
Speaker 2: even talk to the officers directly. I have to go
Speaker 2: through the guards, so and sometimes they would like gesture
Speaker 2: to me that this officer was really mean. And you know,
Speaker 2: it's not a good idea.
Speaker 1: So when you say drip feed the books, you only
Speaker 1: read the portion of it, because if you go through
Speaker 1: a book that's gone, then you wait up.
Speaker 2: As in the offices would drip feed me the books right,
Speaker 2: just enough to keep me from going insane, but I
Speaker 2: would ration it myself so that I would wake up
Speaker 2: and think, oh, I have a new chapter.
Speaker 1: Today, something to look forward to me. Exactly did the
Speaker 1: guards ever loosen up a little bit or were they?
Speaker 1: And you said at the start of this you had
Speaker 1: empathy for the guards what they're going through. Did any
Speaker 1: of them let their personalities come out? Were they were.
Speaker 1: They were too fearful to break the rules.
Speaker 2: Some of them were very nice to me because I
Speaker 2: showed if they were if they carved or you know,
Speaker 2: like there were ways to show that you your normal,
Speaker 2: decent human being. And I would always say good morning,
Speaker 2: even if they didn't say it back. And there was
Speaker 2: one guard who had the runs, and she radioed for
Speaker 2: central command to send a sub but nobody could come,
Speaker 2: so she couldn't leave. She couldn't use the toilet that
Speaker 2: was just ten or five meters away, and she couldn't
Speaker 2: go out those That's the sort of system you're dealing
Speaker 2: with watching somebody crap her pants like and the shame
Speaker 2: and the pain on her face. And when you see that,
Speaker 2: that's how they treat their employees. And the officers have
Speaker 2: pretty tough gigs too, then I guess you You know,
Speaker 2: then doing what they did to me is nothing to.
Speaker 1: Them would cause your concern. If they can treat their
Speaker 1: own that way, what would they do for you? What
Speaker 1: about sleeping lights out time or never? So like seeing
Speaker 1: bright lights the whole time.
Speaker 2: I used to think that I wouldn't be able to
Speaker 2: sleep with the lights on. Yeah, But I guess when
Speaker 2: you become extremely sleep deprived than you can natural sunlight.
Speaker 2: Are you kidding?
Speaker 1: Sorry, I'm.
Speaker 2: Useful for showing your Australians there.
Speaker 1: Look, let's just open the window and let a nice
Speaker 1: breeze through.
Speaker 2: No, no, Oka, they're paranoid about you seeing what's outside,
Speaker 2: even though once I did see because the curtain was
Speaker 2: opened for a little bit, and even though the Australian
Speaker 2: government lobbied for me to get fresh air, there was
Speaker 2: only this tiny window near the ceiling that could be
Speaker 2: opened for fifteen minutes a day, and they would always
Speaker 2: make it so such a big production, like standing up
Speaker 2: on the stool to quickly you get behind the curtains,
Speaker 2: and then to open the window so that I don't
Speaker 2: even see a flash of what's outside.
Speaker 1: I mean, jeez, well you are an international spy. What
Speaker 1: you're capable of?
Speaker 2: I felt so inadequate. They really really overestimate me.
Speaker 1: James Bond, there was things that you did to pass
Speaker 1: pass the time of day. I'm not going to mention it.
Speaker 1: It's in your book. I'm not sure how to raise
Speaker 1: the subject. Let's just say found found release and pleasure. Well,
Speaker 1: you can explain it. You told me how to explain it.
Speaker 1: But I thought it was very creative and it was
Speaker 1: quite funny and it made me laugh.
Speaker 2: Well, you do what you have to do, and if
Speaker 2: you can, I'll look.
Speaker 1: On I'll help you out. It about pleasuring yourself even
Speaker 1: when there's people watching. Twenty four seven our guests today
Speaker 1: found a creative way to do it. I'm not going
Speaker 1: to go into any further details other than the say
Speaker 1: it's in the book, but it made me laugh when
Speaker 1: I was reading it, So a little victory to you. Congratulations.
Speaker 1: You've got to laugh at these things, haven't you. Well,
Speaker 1: And I would imagine that.
Speaker 2: Well, if if all there is, if the things around
Speaker 2: you only give you pain, then you can create pleasure
Speaker 2: for yourself. Whether it's remembering something beautiful or planning what
Speaker 2: I'm going to say that's loving and affectionate at the
Speaker 2: next embassy visit to my family, or going through some
Speaker 2: you know, really lovely sentences in a book, yeah, or
Speaker 2: other things. Then you just got to I think that's
Speaker 2: actually very Australian to be self reliant. Because we're so
Speaker 2: remote and we can't always get help. You just toughen
Speaker 2: up and do things yourself.
Speaker 1: You paid tribute to the fact that the Australian side
Speaker 1: of your help you get through a lot of this.
Speaker 1: You think that's genuine because you understand the whole cultures,
Speaker 1: But the Australian side just a little bit what we
Speaker 1: like to think. We are a little bit rebellious and
Speaker 1: get in, have a go and we can survive this
Speaker 1: tough times. We'll get through that type of attitude.
Speaker 2: And we can always crack some daggy jokes, yeah, and
Speaker 2: have a laugh at ourselves, have a laugh at people
Speaker 2: who take themselves too seriously. Yeah, and get on with
Speaker 2: it all right.
Speaker 1: Well, look we might take a break now that we've
Speaker 1: only got your six months into a three year sentence,
Speaker 1: and this is just the start of it. You haven't
Speaker 1: even met yourself yet. And that's other little party tricks
Speaker 1: that you got up to with your home brew and
Speaker 1: daycake cakes and all that. We laugh about it, but
Speaker 1: what you're also experience is that you're not just a deprivation,
Speaker 1: but you're away from your family and all the pain
Speaker 1: that that creates. So you know, as much as we
Speaker 1: laugh at it, yeah, it was a hell of a
Speaker 1: situation you found yourself in, but you're still here. They
Speaker 1: didn't break.
Speaker 2: You, no, And I'm trying to Gary Gazza.
Speaker 1: All right, don't turn it on me. You're a professional journalist.
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to make a living in this business.
Speaker 1: When we get back for part two, we'll talk about
Speaker 1: what happened with the trial, the sentence, and how you
Speaker 1: eventually found your freedom and how you survived it, because
Speaker 1: I think that's a really interesting time.
Speaker 2: Great cheers, Thank you, Ka