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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life. The average person has never

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Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world. Today,

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Speaker 1: I had a fascinating conversation with Australian journalist Cheng Lei,

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Speaker 1: who was detained for years in the Chinese prison for

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Speaker 1: supposedly endangering China's national security. We talked about life, her career,

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Speaker 1: and the inhumane treatment she suffered whilst in uted. Chang

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Speaker 1: Lai amaze me not only by a resilience but a

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Speaker 1: sense of humor in the face of adversity. Have her

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Speaker 1: listen to a story and you'll understand what I'm talking about.

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Speaker 1: She's a very cool lady with a good take on life.

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Speaker 1: Chang Lai, I'm excited to have you on the podcast. Hi.

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Speaker 2: Gary, it's a privilege to be here and meet you

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Speaker 2: because I read your book while in detention and shared

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Speaker 2: it with my cell mates.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's very cool. We might talk about that a

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Speaker 1: little bit later on, but I'm glad I catch Kill

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Speaker 1: has found its way into a cell in China.

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Speaker 2: A place so secret you can't google a picture.

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Speaker 1: Well, there you go. I should have put a file

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Speaker 1: or something in the book for you to help you escape.

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Speaker 1: At twenty twenty, I, like everyone else in this country,

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Speaker 1: heard about your arrest and being detained in China, and

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Speaker 1: I remember thinking that would probably be the worst place

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Speaker 1: you'd want to be, caught up in a system, a

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Speaker 1: system that we don't fully understand, in a communist country

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Speaker 1: in prison. How was it for you?

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Speaker 2: Well, I experienced all the power that the Chinese state

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Speaker 2: has firsthand, and as you say, it's I don't know

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Speaker 2: if it's the worst. I haven't been in jail in

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Speaker 2: Russia or Cuba or Venezuela or maybe other countries or

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Speaker 2: North Korea. But as far as I know, it's probably

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Speaker 2: that ultimate mix of extreme organization, extreme paranoia, and a

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Speaker 2: unique insight into what tortures people mentally, because that's what

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Speaker 2: you're talking about with state security incarceration. It's about breaking

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Speaker 2: your mind as opposed to breaking your body, which for foreigners,

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Speaker 2: I don't think that would happen any physical violence.

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Speaker 1: So and we will talk about what you were put through,

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Speaker 1: and it was so logical torture of the extreme, I

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Speaker 1: would suggest, But it's also what we've had on eye

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Speaker 1: catch killers. And I'm sure you know them. Sean Turnbull

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Speaker 1: and Kylie Moore.

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Speaker 2: Gilbert my good friends. Imagine elite club of jailbirds.

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Speaker 1: I'd love to be at the dinner party with you.

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Speaker 1: You you international spies, a lot.

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Speaker 2: Of prison envy. What you had tea in you run

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Speaker 2: so jealous.

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Speaker 1: So you compare it comparing those a little bit. I

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Speaker 1: found with both, and both Sean and Kylie that the

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Speaker 1: way that they caped I was quite amazed. And I

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Speaker 1: finished finished your book and again reading a lot of

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Speaker 1: light red well the Human Spirit, and that's what came

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Speaker 1: across in your book, The Human Spirit. How all these

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Speaker 1: things set up to break you, but you you're still

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Speaker 1: hanging in there, and maintain you umanity too. I think

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Speaker 1: that would be difficult.

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Speaker 2: I think it's better to focus on other people rather

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Speaker 2: than yourself all the time, so not eaten up by

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Speaker 2: the misery. When I tried to empathize with the guards,

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Speaker 2: when I even tried to see what made the officers tick,

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Speaker 2: even when they were interrogating me in the most awful way,

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Speaker 2: or when I tried later intertention to help myself mates,

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Speaker 2: that really helped me to know that everyone hurts, everyone suffers,

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Speaker 2: and if I can make the tiniest bit of difference

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Speaker 2: to someone else, then my suffering is eased.

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Speaker 1: Easy to say, probably harder to do. I can only

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Speaker 1: imagine the frustration of being in prison for something that

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Speaker 1: you haven't done and almost feel what you have helpless.

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Speaker 1: It'd be screamed shouting the walls.

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Speaker 2: Well it's not something I haven't done. They can always

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Speaker 2: accuse you of something that you have done and say

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Speaker 2: that it is a crime. But what they really wanted

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Speaker 2: we still don't know. But as far as the facts

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Speaker 2: stack up, is to slap Australia in the face.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And do you think in part what happened to you,

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Speaker 1: that was caught up in all the political agendas and

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Speaker 1: the bilateral relationships between Australia and China for the time while.

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Speaker 2: Because the day in, day out bashing me over the

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Speaker 2: head that I am guilty, that what I did was

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Speaker 2: so horrible. After a while I did get Stockholm syndrome.

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Speaker 2: But later when I saw obviously when I was in there,

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Speaker 2: I didn't know anything anything that was happening outside or

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Speaker 2: how people felt or what they said or what they did.

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Speaker 2: But now looking at everything that's happened, things that were

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Speaker 2: revealed to my lawyer, for example, and the dates the

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Speaker 2: date on which they started surveiling me, which is three

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Speaker 2: days after three or four days after Australia called for

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Speaker 2: that inquiry into the source of COVID and China started

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Speaker 2: like on that day arrested the ex deputy head at

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Speaker 2: the time. He was the deputy head of police, who

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Speaker 2: had studied in Australia, who was also the man in

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Speaker 2: charge of cleaning up Uhan right and had still had

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Speaker 2: family in Australia. So that's that's not a coincidence.

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Speaker 1: And it almost sets it up as a bargaining chip

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Speaker 1: in a way for negotiations.

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Speaker 2: And also maybe paranoia that I was somehow related to

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Speaker 2: him and not related but associated with him. And to

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Speaker 2: this day, nobody's going to come out and admit why

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Speaker 2: exactly they did what they did what they did, but

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Speaker 2: the lines of questioning and they must have thought I

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Speaker 2: was somehow a spy.

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Speaker 1: What with the interrogation.

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Speaker 2: Well, now, I mean you've read some of the exchanges

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Speaker 2: right like where is your grandma Springvale Cemetery?

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Speaker 1: They were clutching at straw as I look from a

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Speaker 1: prosecution point of view, trying to find find something something

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Speaker 1: on you. But okay, you're not an international spy. Will

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Speaker 1: establish that. That's that's the same thing that Kylie said,

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Speaker 1: in the same thing that Shaun said.

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Speaker 2: And if I am, please send me some money.

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Speaker 1: We've actually had an international spy on the on the podcast,

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Speaker 1: Jeffrey twice, and he was worked for DGS, the French spy,

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Speaker 1: and he never did time in jail, but he actually

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Speaker 1: looked like a spy and he can fly a fire,

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Speaker 1: a plane and all sorts of things. At times I

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Speaker 1: can't even reverse park. I read that in your book,

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Speaker 1: but your children captured it on video with your kids,

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Speaker 1: and you've also got another one that you probably share

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Speaker 1: common not common interest. That's the wrong way common experiences.

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Speaker 1: Peter Gressi as well. Yes, it was locked up in

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Speaker 1: Egypt for journalists. And I saw his movie on the

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Speaker 1: Weekend Correspondent and at the end of the movie they

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Speaker 1: talk about I think the figures were in excess of

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Speaker 1: four hundred journalists in prison in over forty five countries

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Speaker 1: at the moment. So did you consider it an occupational hazard,

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Speaker 1: like working as an Australian citizen working in working in China.

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Speaker 2: I think when I started working in journalism in China,

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Speaker 2: it was a very different vibe, very different period. It

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Speaker 2: was two thousand and two and China had just entered

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Speaker 2: the wto China wanted all things foreign. It wanted foreign talent,

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Speaker 2: it wanted foreign investment, We wanted foreign brands, Yes, absolutely,

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Speaker 2: And even the Chinese leader at the time would show

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Speaker 2: off his English and sing Elva songs when he went

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Speaker 2: to visit the US. That's not to say that there

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Speaker 2: was actual a lot of political opening up, but you

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Speaker 2: could see seeds here and there, and you could see

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Speaker 2: them being allowed to sprout a little before sometimes they

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Speaker 2: are quashed. And it was of course we didn't have

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Speaker 2: the technology that China didn't have the technology has now

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Speaker 2: for the extreme surveillance and the internet censorship. So ironically

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Speaker 2: it was a freer time.

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Speaker 1: Right, Okay, So in that environment you didn't get the

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Speaker 1: sense of some think like what happened to you could

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Speaker 1: happen No, because there was a lot of encouragement. Can

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about your life but also your experiences,

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Speaker 1: but can we just break down what you're actually convicted of?

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Speaker 1: What were the offense? So when we're talking about that,

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Speaker 1: people understand exactly the nature of the crime.

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Speaker 2: Supplying state secrets to an overseas entity organization.

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Speaker 1: And that was in the form of a text message

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Speaker 1: or that's where the.

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Speaker 2: Which I sent on WeChat and which I never deleted

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Speaker 2: because I didn't think it was a state secret. It was.

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Speaker 2: It's called the Premier's Work Report, which in Australian terms

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Speaker 2: is kind of like the budget, and in it it

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Speaker 2: talks about the previous year's economic growth and sets a

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Speaker 2: target for the coming year. And in twenty twenty it

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Speaker 2: didn't set a target and had a nine million jobs target.

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Speaker 2: Those were the eight words that I texted my friend

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Speaker 2: who worked at Bloomberg, who is a Chinese citizen. So

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Speaker 2: it's an Australian citizen working for a Chinese organization texting

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Speaker 2: something to a Chinese citizen working at an American organization,

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Speaker 2: thinking that because she helps me and in turn helps

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Speaker 2: where I worked, that I help her. And she had

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Speaker 2: told me that two of her employed colleagues had been

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Speaker 2: let go because they didn't match Voiters in putting out

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Speaker 2: that they had sport the previous year.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so you're basically trying to help a friend and

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Speaker 1: there was no malicious intent or no well I had.

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Speaker 2: When they asked me what a state secret was at

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Speaker 2: the interrogations, I said numbers of rockets defense stuff. That

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Speaker 2: was my so so stupid and naive understanding of state security.

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Speaker 2: And I now know that is actually comprised of sixteen sectors,

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Speaker 2: everything from health to oceans, to culture to economic.

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Speaker 1: All considered state secrets. Okay, So that just puts it

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Speaker 1: in context what you spent three years in prison for.

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Speaker 1: So when people are looking at you, they're not thinking

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Speaker 1: they Okay, maybe she's a spy. That's basically what it

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Speaker 1: came down to.

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Speaker 2: So many Chinese people might actually think that, yeah, well

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Speaker 2: then again, I'm just saying that because I have seen

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Speaker 2: some very very vitriolic commentary when the press release of

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Speaker 2: my book was when that came out, and things like

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Speaker 2: I should be shot, I should have been locked up longer.

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Speaker 2: I should have my kids taken away from me. That's

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Speaker 2: not nice, is that I am a spy and should

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Speaker 2: have known that was the cost of being a spy.

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Speaker 2: And all this is because China has manipulated the narrative

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Speaker 2: in the Chinese language to say that I am a spy.

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Speaker 1: And you're you're in a position where you culturally understand

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Speaker 1: China because you grew up in China before you came

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Speaker 1: across to Australia. You speak the language, so you would

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Speaker 1: have had a real sense of it, and you can

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Speaker 1: I'm sensing the pain that you're describing describing now. It

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Speaker 1: must hurt because I don't think you've got any animosity

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Speaker 1: towards China.

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Speaker 2: Not at all, And to.

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Speaker 1: Have that type of vitriol put out about you when

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Speaker 1: you really you support China and it's turned on you,

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Speaker 1: it must be hurtful.

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Speaker 2: This is the thing people are now completing China with

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Speaker 2: the Chinese, with the Chinese regime, and we should be compartmentalizing.

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Speaker 2: We shouldn't say, because the regime has done these awful

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Speaker 2: things that we should be racist towards Chinese people. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: Chinese Australians or overseas Chinese, and we shouldn't be saying

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Speaker 2: we can't celebrate the culture. Yeah, but it's a hard

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Speaker 2: thing for people to sometimes understand because they will seem entwined.

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Speaker 1: Well, the narrative that comes forward China. Yeah, we've got

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Speaker 1: a fear of China that this is going on, but

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Speaker 1: it's missing the point of the actual people. But you

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Speaker 1: understand the people, so you're well placed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but I know that many Chinese people are now

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Speaker 2: afraid that by talking to me or being my friend,

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Speaker 2: they're actually they're actually endangering their businesses or assets or

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Speaker 2: their families in China, which is so terrible.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that that must hurt. Let's talk about your upbringing.

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Speaker 2: Happier subjects. You're a hard detective.

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Speaker 1: It's okay, didn't mean it didn't mean to break you down.

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Speaker 1: We talk about your torture or the psychological torture over

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Speaker 1: in China, and here I am putting you in an

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Speaker 1: interview room again. Yes, but let's just know, Okay, we'll

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Speaker 1: take a step back, tell me about your childhood, because

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Speaker 1: you had a nice childhood growing up and an interesting

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Speaker 1: childhood to tell us about that time in China.

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Speaker 2: So when I was born, we were on the cusp

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Speaker 2: of ending the Cult Revolution, which basically fucked up China

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Speaker 2: big time, and you still see some of those after

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Speaker 2: effects now. But China was about to change leaders, Marl

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Speaker 2: was about to die, and the living standards were going

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Speaker 2: to start to improve. But at the time, my parents

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Speaker 2: were earning something like five to six dollars a month,

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Speaker 2: and even what they did, where they lived, it was

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Speaker 2: all dependent on their families, their lineage. So if you

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Speaker 2: had nothing, then that was the best type of family,

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Speaker 2: and whereas if your family had either been educated or

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Speaker 2: had land or assets, then you were the worst of

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Speaker 2: the lot. So that was the whole reversal thanks to Mao.

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Speaker 1: Turn it upside down. Do you have fond memories because

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Speaker 1: you were there too. You were ten and now you

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Speaker 1: talk about swimming in the river and different things, and

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Speaker 1: it was almost like a country life that you were living.

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Speaker 2: I was in the city, but back then there wasn't

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Speaker 2: a lot of difference between the city and the countryside

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Speaker 2: in that you ate to meat very rarely. I think

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Speaker 2: once a year we would have chicken once or twice.

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Speaker 2: I remember once it was because we had guests, a

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Speaker 2: special guests. Another time it was because it was Chinese

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Speaker 2: New Year and this one chicken, poor chook that got killed.

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Speaker 2: You know, everything was cooked and in the choicest bits

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Speaker 2: would be given to people who were sick or it

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Speaker 2: was just Yeah, you can't imagine the scarcity of anything.

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Speaker 2: If you've got a plastic bag, you would wash it

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Speaker 2: to reuse it again and again. But that didn't stop

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Speaker 2: me from enjoying the childhood because there were always lots

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Speaker 2: of kids around and we would just play in nature,

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Speaker 2: just find bits of leaves and pretend, you know, playhouse

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Speaker 2: with that, or try to find a little beetle tire

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Speaker 2: string on it.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to admit to that, but I understand.

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Speaker 1: I understand that.

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Speaker 2: We didn't hurt it. Very gentle with the thread.

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Speaker 1: That type of type of childhood. Now you attend when

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Speaker 1: you came across to Australia, tell us about that experience,

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Speaker 1: because that would have been a culture shock for you

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Speaker 1: big time.

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Speaker 2: It was a tsunami. Yeah, getting on the plane in

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Speaker 2: Guangzhou in southern China. My mum was scared that we

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Speaker 2: had too much luggage, so she made me wear two

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Speaker 2: pairs of her jeans. At the time, jeans were a

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Speaker 2: new thing in China. They were seen as the ultimate

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Speaker 2: fashion statement. Except they were all fled I think they

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Speaker 2: were cast offs from developed.

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Speaker 1: Countries, seventy stock that we could tell exactly.

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Speaker 2: So I was wearing mum's two long jeans and sitting

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Speaker 2: on this plane and not knowing what to do at all.

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Speaker 2: So when the bits of quantus food came around, Mom

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Speaker 2: and I were trying to figure out, like why is

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Speaker 2: this meat cold? Why is it unflavored? And not knowing

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Speaker 2: that the sachets of salt and pepper were to be opened.

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Speaker 2: And then I went to the toilet and I'm so sorry, Quantas,

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Speaker 2: but I squatted on the seat.

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Speaker 1: That's why they have to bring in those signs toilet.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but this was eighty five for understandable for.

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Speaker 1: A ten year old. For a ten year old, what

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Speaker 1: it's like you go into another planet, it was yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean I tried to imagine it when when I

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Speaker 2: knew I would be going. But back then, what did

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Speaker 2: we know of the outside world except that you know,

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Speaker 2: there used to be the slogan that US imperialists or

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Speaker 2: paper tigers. To a kid, what does that mean?

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Speaker 1: Is that good or bad?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I thought gorilla warfare was gorillas fighting when I was

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Speaker 1: growing up, so the confused this gorilla warfare. That's a

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Speaker 1: bit of a tough fighting gorillas. But anyway, we'll all

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Speaker 1: grow up and learn. So your time in Australia, So

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Speaker 1: how did you find that you ended up in Brisbane?

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Speaker 2: You well, Dad was doing his PhD at Monash to

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Speaker 2: my Nash Primary and Secondary and then in the final

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Speaker 2: year Dad went to work at the University of Queensland.

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Speaker 2: So we all moved up and I did year twelve

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Speaker 2: at Intrapilli High in Brisbane.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and you.

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Speaker 2: What a shock from Melbournian Brisbane.

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Speaker 1: Your your father was pushing you into commerce and you

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Speaker 1: studying what you were studying was not What was really

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Speaker 1: your passion.

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Speaker 2: Is that my parents are all very nerdy maths slash

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Speaker 2: physics nerdy and they used to make me do problems

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Speaker 2: from an early age. I'm traumatized to this day.

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Speaker 1: That was again, and I refer to your book because

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Speaker 1: I picked up so much about you in the book

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Speaker 1: where you're sitting around family time, playing doing the capulus or.

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Speaker 2: What became Well, they would be arguing over some problem

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Speaker 2: that I couldn't do, and then I'd go, okay, is

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Speaker 2: this time for me to go, you know, play for

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Speaker 2: a while. Well they get it out, but they, I guess,

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Speaker 2: grew up with the understanding that science and technology was

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Speaker 2: the way forward for China, so they tried to They

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Speaker 2: thought that would be the best for me. And also

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Speaker 2: my dad thought Australia, being more racist than it is now,

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Speaker 2: that I wouldn't be able to get a job if

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Speaker 2: I did an arts or journalism degree.

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Speaker 1: And I remember that you were saying in the book

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Speaker 1: that your father had concerns that they're not going to

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Speaker 1: you want to go in the journalism the country's not

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Speaker 1: ready for an Asian journalist and that type of thing.

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Speaker 1: But I can understand from a parent's point of view

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Speaker 1: what they would have felt at the time. So steered

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Speaker 1: you into something that you mainly did for your parents sake.

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Speaker 2: And I just thought I'd be able to get a job,

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Speaker 2: make money, and then that would look good for my parents. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I didn't really know what I wanted to do actually

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Speaker 2: in that way, in terms of a career.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to raise it. Then if you don't want

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Speaker 1: to talk about it, that's fine. But when you were

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Speaker 1: living in Brisbane, you're a victim of a home invasion, Yes,

348
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Speaker 1: you happy to talk about what.

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Speaker 2: I do actually through this podcast not to find detective sergeant.

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Speaker 2: He was detective sergeant then Dom Mabbot, who worked in

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Speaker 2: Brisbane at the time in nineteen ninety four, and really

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Speaker 2: thank him.

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Speaker 1: No, well, you've certainly paid cuos to him. And what

354
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Speaker 1: was it about that? And I like hearing that, like

355
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Speaker 1: as a former detective, someone that's doing their job well.

356
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Speaker 1: But Dom Mabbot detective that there was a home invasion

357
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Speaker 1: where you were woken up by a man standing over

358
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Speaker 1: your bed with a cigarette lther and a knife, threatening

359
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Speaker 1: to kill you if you make a noise, and then

360
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Speaker 1: kept your hostage.

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Speaker 2: Yes, for over an hour while I took him around

362
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Speaker 2: the house looking for money. I took him to the garage.

363
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Speaker 2: He didn't know that I actually did it to wake

364
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Speaker 2: up the dogs. But the dogs didn't even bark when

365
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 2: they do, they're just very nice dogs. And then to

366
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Speaker 2: my dad's room and where he picked up some stuff.

367
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Speaker 2: But I thought because my dad had a shotgun hidden somewhere.

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Speaker 2: I thought it'd be messy if I woke my parents home,

369
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Speaker 2: and I thought he wouldn't do anything to me, But

370
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Speaker 2: I was wrong. So after he found what he could

371
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Speaker 2: find in the house, he raped me in my bed,

372
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Speaker 2: and when I screamed, he put his hand over me,

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Speaker 2: and because my room is at the other end versus

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Speaker 2: my parents room, they didn't hear. And then he escaped,

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Speaker 2: and then I went to wake up my dad, but

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Speaker 2: he was so shocked he couldn't speak properly.

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Speaker 1: So I picked up the.

378
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 2: Phone and or I took the phone from him and

379
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 2: made the call. And then when the police came, I

380
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 2: went with Don to the police station to give to

381
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 2: describe the attack and the rapist. But I remember him

382
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Speaker 2: telling me he had a young daughter, and the empathy

383
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Speaker 2: that he showed, the gentleness, Yeah, yeah, it loft such

384
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Speaker 2: a difference.

385
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Speaker 3: First.

386
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Speaker 1: Still, think for something as dramatic as that, if you

387
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 1: have a police offer so that understands and is empathetic

388
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,639
Speaker 1: towards what you've gone through, it can make a world

389
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Speaker 1: of difference. So full full credit to him, but also

390
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,640
Speaker 1: credit to you and the way that you you came

391
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Speaker 1: through that and taught a bit about yourself, how you

392
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 1: can handle handle crisis and you, yeah, I'm reluctant to

393
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Speaker 1: even say that a victim, because you're not broken by it.

394
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Speaker 1: You saw him that, you saw the perpetrator get justice

395
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Speaker 1: or the justice in the form of a sentence some

396
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,400
Speaker 1: seven months later, and you gave evidence of these court matter.

397
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Speaker 1: How was that experience for it?

398
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Speaker 2: Actually I didn't get to give evidence because when I

399
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 2: had already moved to Melbourne to find work, and the

400
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 2: Queensland Police flew me back to Brisbane for the court hearing,

401
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 2: and as soon as I appeared, he pleaded guilty.

402
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 1: Well that's that's even better. Yeah, that's better. But okay,

403
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 1: well that's a that's a tough thing for anyone to

404
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 1: happen happen in their life. But I think it demonstrates

405
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 1: your resolve to always move forward and the strength that

406
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 1: your share. How long did you spend in the career

407
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:10,920
Speaker 1: that you didn't particularly want?

408
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 2: Too long? Five years?

409
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 1: Then you've decided, Okay, I've paid the dues to my

410
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 1: parents and now I want to do something that's I'm

411
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 1: passionate about. What drew you to journalism.

412
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Speaker 2: Well, two things I'm passionate about. One is telling things

413
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 2: telling the story and then two is using my bilingual advantage.

414
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 2: And at the time, China was growing really fast and

415
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 2: Australian businesses were investing there. So I got a job

416
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 2: as a business analyst with the predecessor or This company

417
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,920
Speaker 2: was taken over by Toll Holdings and they had made

418
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:56,120
Speaker 2: an investment in Eastern China. So I went there and

419
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 2: learned so much in just one year.

420
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,400
Speaker 1: Seems like the perfect fit with your background and your skills.

421
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:08,360
Speaker 2: Accept accept The joint venture was with the very powerful

422
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 2: state owned power Corporation of that province and to people

423
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:19,360
Speaker 2: who know China power as in electricity, it's very powerful.

424
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,400
Speaker 1: Okay, if you've got the power, you've got the.

425
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:27,439
Speaker 2: Power, you do and corrupt, especially back then. Now I

426
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:35,679
Speaker 2: can't gauge the severity, but the things I saw go on, yeah,

427
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,439
Speaker 2: but still it was super interesting to observe and to

428
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 2: be a part of. So that's why I then went

429
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 2: for an interview at the what they call CCTV China

430
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 2: Central Television because they were just starting up their English channel,

431
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 2: and that was how I got my start in journalism.

432
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 1: And did it feel like a good fit for you

433
00:27:58,840 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: at the time?

434
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 2: I loved it from day one just going to speak

435
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 2: to different people and the immediacy of telling what had

436
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 2: happened and being able to use my business show your parents,

437
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:22,159
Speaker 2: I know, yeah, yeah, Dad does that.

438
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 1: Okay, So you moved and lived over there. Relationships, married kids.

439
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:34,439
Speaker 2: I had married when I was working in Melbourne. My

440
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 2: first boyfriend whom I met while we were recording educational

441
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:45,479
Speaker 2: tapes for the Queensland Department of Education, and then we

442
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 2: moved to Melbourne together. And I'm a people pleaser. I

443
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 2: shouldn't have married when I felt it was the wrong

444
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 2: he was. We were just not yeah, not a good fit,

445
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 2: and I should have broken up before getting married.

446
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 1: Well, I can tell you, like I shouldn't be seen here.

447
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: I can't judge anyone on relationships. So you explain that

448
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 1: the way you need to explain it. But I understand

449
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 1: that that's you had the five years or whatever it

450
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 1: was and went your separate ways. You're another relationship that

451
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 1: you had two beautiful kids too, Yes, And what years was? At?

452
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 1: What stage was that?

453
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 2: That was after my divorce. So my first husband was

454
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 2: very stayed and I used to nickname him mister Safety.

455
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 2: And then of course after that that the rebound relationship

456
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 2: was somebody. Yeah, and unfortunately that meant abusive, exploitative, and toxic.

457
00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 1: Okay, well, that's not the best.

458
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 2: Thing about that is, of course, my two beautiful.

459
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 1: Kids, and when that's Ava and Alex when.

460
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 2: We were they born twenty nine and twenty eleven.

461
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 1: Okay, And so your career in journalism, you virtually were

462
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: raising the children as a single mother.

463
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 2: I was, Yeah, after after a particularly bad bashing by

464
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 2: my former husband in twenty fifteen.

465
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 1: Right, okay, well that's it.

466
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, the kids were four and six.

467
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 1: Again, I'm sorry to hear that. That's yeah, that's quite lot.

468
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 2: In a way, perversely, it helped because I used to think,

469
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 2: if I can be bashed so hard, belted that the

470
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 2: bronze buckle fell off in the head by somebody who

471
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 2: was supposed to love and care for me, was the

472
00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 2: father of my kids, then straight just interrogating me and

473
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 2: putting me through pain is not so hard to fathom.

474
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 2: And if I can still later on see my ex

475
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 2: husband and talk to him about raising the kids and

476
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 2: be cordial and calm, then why can't I get through

477
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 2: strangers hurting me.

478
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 1: It's interesting you say that. I think all the little

479
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 1: parts of our lives that do hear this and that,

480
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: and how we readbound from that? And you don't look

481
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 1: back and wish any harm on You're not saying I'm

482
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 1: glad it happened, but it does shape you, and it's

483
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 1: certainly something I think in the experiences you had would

484
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: have stilled your resolve. In the prison situation that you found.

485
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 2: Yourself in, yeah, everything that was terrible had prepared me

486
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 2: for the ultimate terror.

487
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 1: The biggest test. And I I sit opposite like Kylie

488
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 1: and Sean and that I don't know how I would

489
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 1: cope in those environments, like just the situations that you

490
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 1: found yourself in. It's incredible. But anyway we'll dig into that.

491
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 2: Don't choose you as a sell mate.

492
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 1: We'd have some fun in themselves. We'd try and trick

493
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 1: the guards. I'm also amazed of the ratcunning to get

494
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: around some of some of the rules, because they've got

495
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 1: it all wide. There is no way you're going to

496
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: break these rules. But you managed to break break some

497
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 1: of the rules and very cleverly. Your life before before

498
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 1: you were detained living, where were you living.

499
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 2: I was living in the central part of Beijing.

500
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: Okay, we'd be the TV station with.

501
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 2: My kids, so my mum would come over and stay

502
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 2: half of the year.

503
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 1: Okay, how old were your kids at that time?

504
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 2: They were eight and ten. Okay, when we separated in

505
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 2: February twenty.

506
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 1: Twenty, all right, and then if correct me if I'm wrong,

507
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 1: your kids were sent over to visit your mom. Yes,

508
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 1: and then the dreaded COVID lockdowns. Yeah, and all the

509
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 1: lockdowns and say you.

510
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 2: Kid locked its borders. So my kids were on a

511
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 2: flight to come back on the thirty first of March

512
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 2: twenty twenty, but that flight got canceled and then nothing

513
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 2: nobody could come in, well except for officials kids, And.

514
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,959
Speaker 1: There's always a loophole, is it for certain people? Okay,

515
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 1: that must have been traumatic in itself. It was been

516
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 1: separated for you.

517
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 2: Had never been separated from them like that. Yeah, maybe

518
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 2: you know, for a month when they went to see

519
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 2: my dad in Perth, or maybe for a day or

520
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 2: two when I went on business troops, but not like that. Yeah,

521
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 2: long and not knowing when it would end. So I

522
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 2: was just going out of my brain every day trying

523
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 2: to find some way to get them back.

524
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 1: So how long was it before you had detained the

525
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 1: kids with trapped for six months. Okay, so you had

526
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:14,760
Speaker 1: six months without your kids.

527
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 2: So all in total, I didn't see my kids for

528
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,280
Speaker 2: close to four years.

529
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 1: That must have been heartbreaking at that age too, like

530
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: so many changes, so many things that go on in

531
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 1: their lives, yeap, when you were in detention. Who was

532
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 1: looking after your children?

533
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 2: My mom was, I was. I would have liked for

534
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:44,800
Speaker 2: my children to have gone to Perth with my dad

535
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 2: because my mum is a hoarder and her house I

536
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 2: don't think kids good for the kids or her way

537
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 2: of living. But it ended up being that my daughter

538
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 2: went to boarding school and my son was there for

539
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 2: the whole time.

540
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 1: That must be tough, yeah.

541
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 2: And I would always read the letters to try to

542
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 2: glean how the kids were doing, yeah, and the ways

543
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 2: they were coping. And later when I did find out

544
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 2: some details, it was just heartbreaking around.

545
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can imagine. Okay, I promise not to make

546
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 1: you cry again. I feel like I mean got you

547
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 1: and forget about those Chinese interrogators.

548
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 2: This is good.

549
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 1: Good cry, Okay, good cry. Tell us about the day

550
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:44,880
Speaker 1: that you would detained, so we've got a sense of

551
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 1: your life leading up to it, who you were, and

552
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 1: I just you probably underplayed it. You were pretty big

553
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 1: in the journalists. Well, you had some good gigs in

554
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 1: the media, and yeah, inter viewing Michael Schumacher, covering the

555
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 1: Rolling Stones concerts and really tough gigs like that. So

556
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 1: you were struggling. Then your world's turned upside down? How

557
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: did it start? Talk us through that?

558
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, So August thirteenth, twenty twenty the worst day of

559
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:23,319
Speaker 2: my life. I was thinking that I would go play

560
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 2: tennis in the morning, and also I was feeling crook,

561
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 2: but being me, I'd go and play sport when I

562
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 2: was cook anyway, thinking it's going to make me better.

563
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 2: But when I took some painkillers and dozed off, and

564
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 2: then when I work, I saw all these messages like

565
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,839
Speaker 2: work wanting me to come in right now because the

566
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 2: head honcho wanted to see me about my pilot for

567
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 2: a show that's about cooking and eating with ambassadors. And

568
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 2: I was excited so quickly dressed and went to work,

569
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 2: thinking about how I'm going to get this show made,

570
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 2: and I thought it was going to be a one

571
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,479
Speaker 2: on one. But when I pushed open this meeting room door,

572
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 2: it was just this huge table about twenty people sitting

573
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 2: around it and I thought, oh, that's odd. Yeah, And

574
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 2: then the next part was somebody standing up holding a

575
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 2: badge and said, I'm from the Ministry of State Security

576
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 2: wanting to investigate you for supplying state secrets to overseas organizations.

577
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 2: And my bag and phone were taken from me, and

578
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 2: from then on I was always escorted, even when I

579
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 2: went to the toilet. So then we drove from the

580
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 2: TV station to my apartment, and even the building manager

581
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 2: came out to meet them, so I knew that they

582
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 2: had worked this all out beforehand, and they filmed me

583
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 2: going up to my place, and then they started to

584
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,799
Speaker 2: raid my apartment, and they knew exactly where to go,

585
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 2: so they didn't go to my kids room, or my

586
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,839
Speaker 2: mum's room, or even the living room. They just went

587
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:40,320
Speaker 2: straight to my bedroom and spent hours while I sat

588
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 2: in the living room.

589
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 1: What was going.

590
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 2: I was in a bit of pain, and I thought, one,

591
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 2: this must be a mistake, and two, I'm sure I

592
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 2: can explain this because I haven't done anything wrong and

593
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 2: I haven't supplied state secrets to overseas organizations. I didn't

594
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 2: even start to think that it was anything related to

595
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 2: bilatual relations. I just thought this will be a little adventure,

596
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:21,839
Speaker 2: something to tell people about a story at the dinner table. Yeah,

597
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:27,399
Speaker 2: that's right, and they got the wrong person. Yeah that's

598
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,839
Speaker 2: why when they said, oh, you should turn off the utilities,

599
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 2: I thought, what why would I bother? I go away

600
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 2: for two weeks without turning off the electricity and it's

601
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 2: so stupid.

602
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 1: And when did you realize this is this is not

603
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:46,879
Speaker 1: going to be a case of oh, when they leave,

604
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 1: I'm going to get What was that about? When did

605
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 1: you realize that you were in real trouble.

606
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 2: I didn't realize the full extent of what they could

607
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,479
Speaker 2: do to me, or what they could do to anyone. Yeah,

608
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 2: until months later. For example, even the next day, I thought,

609
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 2: if I could sit out this day, I would be

610
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 2: able to get bail or some sort of house arrest.

611
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:17,320
Speaker 1: Did you under have an understanding of the Chinese system

612
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 1: or are you more thinking, well, you're more attuned to

613
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 1: the Australian justice system, where bail and those type of

614
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,840
Speaker 1: protections might be more readily available.

615
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:36,320
Speaker 2: I don't think I even had a full understanding of

616
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:41,239
Speaker 2: any judicial system. It wasn't my beating, It's not. Yeah. Sure,

617
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:46,240
Speaker 2: I read news articles and I know, and I've seen

618
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:53,800
Speaker 2: too many American legal shows, which is not good preparation

619
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 2: for Chinese incarceration.

620
00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:00,040
Speaker 1: Doesn't You didn't read me by rights, that's not going to.

621
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:02,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, give me, give me a quarter to call

622
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 2: my lawyer.

623
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 1: So how did you feel like? I know, it's intimidating

624
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,919
Speaker 1: for people when they're placed under arrest and yeah, we're

625
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,840
Speaker 1: used to our freedoms and then have someone and I

626
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 1: say to look on people's faces when no, you can't

627
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 1: actually leave the room you've been detained. How did that

628
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 1: make you feel like someone physically had control of you

629
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 1: from that point in time.

630
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:32,720
Speaker 2: To a certain degree. In China, you hear about things happening,

631
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 2: so you're not entirely bewildered, but still, you know, the

632
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:45,879
Speaker 2: more things they told me, I couldn't do the it

633
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 2: was just a very ugly, dawning things like you can't

634
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 2: put your arm over your eyes, you can't sleep facing

635
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 2: the wall. Those things you don't think about.

636
00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:59,919
Speaker 1: So you were you were? You're taken from your home, yes,

637
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 1: and you blindfolded.

638
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:02,280
Speaker 2: Yes.

639
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 1: Even that in itself is quite confronting to be blindfolded

640
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:09,359
Speaker 1: them and walked out in the in the charge of

641
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 1: someone else, not knowing where you've been taken well.

642
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 2: When I was blindfolded, I was still in my you

643
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 2: know way till I tell people about this.

644
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 1: Oh, then they put the blindfold on.

645
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:21,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, not knowing you would be you know, another three

646
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 2: years before I could actually tell that story.

647
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, So where were you taken to?

648
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 2: I was taken to the well at the time, to me,

649
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 2: it was a secret location. But it's number forty seven

650
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 2: dahlmannlu Infonte District in Beijing, a place that I really hate.

651
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,359
Speaker 1: It's not the type of place you recommend people visit.

652
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:59,319
Speaker 2: So it's the facility where they take state secret, not

653
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 2: state secret, state security. What would you call them suspects

654
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 2: or yes, aspect it the difference that you're being suspected

655
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 2: of something.

656
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 1: A place where they can detain you without having you

657
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 1: not charged. They can just detain you at that at that.

658
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:22,400
Speaker 2: Pacil people are often surprised by the different order of

659
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 2: pain that you experience. In the Chinese system. You get

660
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 2: the worst first, whereas in Australia, the US jail is

661
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 2: the worst.

662
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 1: You get it, that's the end of it.

663
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, but their jail is almost paradise compared to say,

664
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 2: the first phase, which is RSDLA.

665
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 1: And what's that stand for?

666
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 2: RSDL residential surveillance at a designated location, which sounds really benign.

667
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 1: A lot of interpretations that could be made.

668
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:56,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, residential. There's nothing residential about having two people stuck

669
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:58,479
Speaker 2: to you for every minute of the day for six

670
00:43:58,520 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 2: months there.

671
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 1: I think that's just hard to comprehend when you describe

672
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,320
Speaker 1: the conditions that you're in. You're in a small room.

673
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,800
Speaker 1: You've got a bed there, and you've got someone standing

674
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 1: forty centimeters in front of you, and someone.

675
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 2: Sitting forty centimeters to your right, to your.

676
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 1: Right, and at all times twenty four to seven, yes,

677
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,359
Speaker 1: and you're not allowed to talk. You've got to keep

678
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:24,439
Speaker 1: your eyes open. You've got to sit on the bed

679
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:25,839
Speaker 1: for thirteen hours a day, and.

680
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:28,800
Speaker 2: You've got to sit straight. You can't cross your legs

681
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:33,399
Speaker 2: or ankles, you can't lean against anything, you can't move

682
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 2: without permission.

683
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 1: How long did this go on? For?

684
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 2: Six months? That's the legal limit. Yeah, And many lawyers,

685
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 2: like conscientious lawyers, have lobbied for that to be abolished

686
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 2: in China because this is how how you how people

687
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:51,919
Speaker 2: make cases. Right.

688
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 1: Psychological torture, Yeah, say anything, break a person, break a person,

689
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 1: get out of it. And then you get you get

690
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 1: taken them out for interrogation at their whim. Yeah, and

691
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:04,880
Speaker 1: what did that involve?

692
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 2: And under Chinese law, you're not supposed to have the

693
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,879
Speaker 2: place of interrogation on the same premises as the so

694
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 2: called residential surveillance. But they give a different address to

695
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:21,360
Speaker 2: the room right next door.

696
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 1: But they put you in the wheelchair and put the

697
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 1: blindfold on you and were you down there.

698
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 2: No, it's right next door, right, Yeah, So that in

699
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:29,880
Speaker 2: itself is very dodgy.

700
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 1: Yeah.

701
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 2: And you're in a restraint chair, so there's a big

702
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,759
Speaker 2: block of wood that kind of that's locked in front

703
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 2: of you, so you can't move, you can't get out

704
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:50,840
Speaker 2: of the chair, and three people video cameras recording someone

705
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:56,280
Speaker 2: feeding them what to ask you, and every and really

706
00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 2: just looking at every part of your life because they've

707
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:01,239
Speaker 2: confiscated all all of your electronics.

708
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:03,840
Speaker 1: How often would you be interrogated.

709
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 2: In the first month, Probably a dozen times, and then

710
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 2: it petered off after that because they didn't find anything

711
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 2: with switch to asked me. They just hit all these

712
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 2: dead ends.

713
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 1: Did you think that the insanity would have to come

714
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:27,719
Speaker 1: to an end at some stage? Could you reach out

715
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 1: and speak to the embassy at this location. Could you

716
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 1: speak to your family, could you engage a lawyer?

717
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 2: No? I mean the embassy came to visit every month,

718
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 2: and that was a godsend. But it's thirty minutes for

719
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:50,359
Speaker 2: thirty days, and I often thought there's just not enough

720
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 2: time to say really important things like where are the

721
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:59,879
Speaker 2: kids going to be? And what happens to my personal life?

722
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:04,279
Speaker 2: You can't talk about your case. Of course, they have

723
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:06,799
Speaker 2: a translator, and they have video cameras, and they have

724
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 2: all these officers sitting around me, even though it's by

725
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:15,279
Speaker 2: a video link, and they're actually on the premises, and

726
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 2: this is another brand of Chinese gratuitus cruelty. Yeah, they

727
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 2: have to take all these COVID tests to come into

728
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 2: the detention center, and then the visit is still by

729
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 2: video link, and we always have to wear masks, so

730
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 2: you can't even seek any sort of or get any

731
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 2: sort of comfort from seeing somebody's face, seeing their smile.

732
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 1: So you've virtually gone from a normal, exciting existence life

733
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 1: and you've been dropped into this environment, which is sensory deprivation.

734
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 1: I would imagine not being able to talk, not have

735
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 1: the freedom to move when you want in the cell.

736
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 1: Describe the cell to me.

737
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 2: The cell is padded. In fact, everything is designed to

738
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 2: prevent self harm or I guess harming others. So thick

739
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:18,720
Speaker 2: steel sliding doors to lock you in and doorless bathroom. Again,

740
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 2: the bathroom is padded, and there's no tap, It's only

741
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:26,439
Speaker 2: a rubber hose. And okay that the tab is set

742
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:29,320
Speaker 2: within the wall, so you have to put your fingers

743
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:33,240
Speaker 2: in to turn it, and it's very hard, and obviously

744
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:35,760
Speaker 2: they're afraid of you wrenching off, for example, a tap

745
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 2: too to do something. So when it got so bad.

746
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 3: That people would tell you that I'm like the ultimate

747
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:46,879
Speaker 3: life lover.

748
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 2: I love to live.

749
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:53,960
Speaker 3: But there came a moment when I wanted to die,

750
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 3: and I thought, how can I do it? The walls

751
00:48:57,960 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 3: are soft, right.

752
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 2: That there's not thing that there's this blue gray carpet.

753
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 2: But the only thing that was hard was the bathroom tiles.

754
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 2: And when I'm on the toilet, the guards are watching.

755
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 2: But I thought if I could just in that moment

756
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 2: before they grabbed me, if I could smash my head

757
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 2: against the tiles, Yeah, that.

758
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:30,880
Speaker 3: Would be some sort of relief because I didn't know

759
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:35,480
Speaker 3: if I would see my family again, I.

760
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 1: Can't comprehend the low how you would be feeling too,

761
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:46,399
Speaker 1: consider consider that and just no privacy, no communication.

762
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:49,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you speak like five sentences a day, like

763
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 2: permission to go to the toilet, permission to go to

764
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 2: the toilet.

765
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 1: So you're sitting there with someone standing in front of you,

766
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:00,400
Speaker 1: standing in front of you, and you got to keep

767
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:02,239
Speaker 1: your eyes open before you've seen and made this from me,

768
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:04,800
Speaker 1: which is not nothing big, there's.

769
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 2: Names really weird.

770
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:13,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, how how did you occupy your mind and stay

771
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:15,759
Speaker 1: sane during that? And I asked that genuinely, how do

772
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:17,719
Speaker 1: you stay sane when that's going on?

773
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:22,439
Speaker 2: Well? Later I found out that I thought I had

774
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:28,560
Speaker 2: it bad, but others had it worse. When the Australian

775
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:32,919
Speaker 2: embassy lobbied on my behalf, I started to get books.

776
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:36,240
Speaker 1: Yep, in the detention center when in R SDR.

777
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:43,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that saved my life. You words cannot describe how

778
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 2: much of how much solace.

779
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 1: Some books escapeism for you.

780
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 2: Like literally I would read very comforting words over and

781
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:57,239
Speaker 2: over again.

782
00:50:57,480 --> 00:50:57,719
Speaker 1: Yeah.

783
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 2: I remember this book by Melbourne author called Belinda Missen.

784
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:10,360
Speaker 2: She writes some romantic stories, very lighthearted, and she was

785
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:15,799
Speaker 2: describing this Victorian town and said there was a fish

786
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 2: and chip shop mhm, and all of a sudden, just

787
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 2: this rush of longing for azziness, you know.

788
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 3: So thankfully I had the books, that makes sense.

789
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:44,280
Speaker 2: But I was on a drip feed. Yeah, so after

790
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:49,239
Speaker 2: I had read one book, there was if you've got

791
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 2: thirteen hours, and unfortunately I'm a fast reader, son, then

792
00:51:56,120 --> 00:52:01,000
Speaker 2: what then I'm begging for another book? And I can't

793
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:03,000
Speaker 2: even talk to the officers directly. I have to go

794
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 2: through the guards, so and sometimes they would like gesture

795
00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 2: to me that this officer was really mean. And you know,

796
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:12,920
Speaker 2: it's not a good idea.

797
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 1: So when you say drip feed the books, you only

798
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:17,239
Speaker 1: read the portion of it, because if you go through

799
00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:19,719
Speaker 1: a book that's gone, then you wait up.

800
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 2: As in the offices would drip feed me the books right,

801
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 2: just enough to keep me from going insane, but I

802
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 2: would ration it myself so that I would wake up

803
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 2: and think, oh, I have a new chapter.

804
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 1: Today, something to look forward to me. Exactly did the

805
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:38,080
Speaker 1: guards ever loosen up a little bit or were they?

806
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 1: And you said at the start of this you had

807
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:44,279
Speaker 1: empathy for the guards what they're going through. Did any

808
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 1: of them let their personalities come out? Were they were.

809
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:48,840
Speaker 1: They were too fearful to break the rules.

810
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:52,480
Speaker 2: Some of them were very nice to me because I

811
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 2: showed if they were if they carved or you know,

812
00:52:56,120 --> 00:53:01,200
Speaker 2: like there were ways to show that you your normal,

813
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:04,680
Speaker 2: decent human being. And I would always say good morning,

814
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:09,400
Speaker 2: even if they didn't say it back. And there was

815
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 2: one guard who had the runs, and she radioed for

816
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:20,360
Speaker 2: central command to send a sub but nobody could come,

817
00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:23,839
Speaker 2: so she couldn't leave. She couldn't use the toilet that

818
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:29,840
Speaker 2: was just ten or five meters away, and she couldn't

819
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:34,440
Speaker 2: go out those That's the sort of system you're dealing

820
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 2: with watching somebody crap her pants like and the shame

821
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:44,680
Speaker 2: and the pain on her face. And when you see that,

822
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:48,200
Speaker 2: that's how they treat their employees. And the officers have

823
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:55,920
Speaker 2: pretty tough gigs too, then I guess you You know,

824
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:58,719
Speaker 2: then doing what they did to me is nothing to.

825
00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:02,359
Speaker 1: Them would cause your concern. If they can treat their

826
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:05,759
Speaker 1: own that way, what would they do for you? What

827
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:11,239
Speaker 1: about sleeping lights out time or never? So like seeing

828
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:14,400
Speaker 1: bright lights the whole time.

829
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:16,440
Speaker 2: I used to think that I wouldn't be able to

830
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:19,600
Speaker 2: sleep with the lights on. Yeah, But I guess when

831
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:25,680
Speaker 2: you become extremely sleep deprived than you can natural sunlight.

832
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:27,200
Speaker 2: Are you kidding?

833
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:28,240
Speaker 1: Sorry, I'm.

834
00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 2: Useful for showing your Australians there.

835
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 1: Look, let's just open the window and let a nice

836
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:35,160
Speaker 1: breeze through.

837
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:40,640
Speaker 2: No, no, Oka, they're paranoid about you seeing what's outside,

838
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:45,520
Speaker 2: even though once I did see because the curtain was

839
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 2: opened for a little bit, and even though the Australian

840
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:54,080
Speaker 2: government lobbied for me to get fresh air, there was

841
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:57,279
Speaker 2: only this tiny window near the ceiling that could be

842
00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:00,440
Speaker 2: opened for fifteen minutes a day, and they would always

843
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:06,640
Speaker 2: make it so such a big production, like standing up

844
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:11,200
Speaker 2: on the stool to quickly you get behind the curtains,

845
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:13,479
Speaker 2: and then to open the window so that I don't

846
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:16,960
Speaker 2: even see a flash of what's outside.

847
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:22,360
Speaker 1: I mean, jeez, well you are an international spy. What

848
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:23,120
Speaker 1: you're capable of?

849
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 2: I felt so inadequate. They really really overestimate me.

850
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:36,799
Speaker 1: James Bond, there was things that you did to pass

851
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:38,719
Speaker 1: pass the time of day. I'm not going to mention it.

852
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:41,279
Speaker 1: It's in your book. I'm not sure how to raise

853
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:50,359
Speaker 1: the subject. Let's just say found found release and pleasure. Well,

854
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:54,759
Speaker 1: you can explain it. You told me how to explain it.

855
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:56,520
Speaker 1: But I thought it was very creative and it was

856
00:55:56,560 --> 00:55:58,080
Speaker 1: quite funny and it made me laugh.

857
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:03,600
Speaker 2: Well, you do what you have to do, and if

858
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:08,320
Speaker 2: you can, I'll look.

859
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:11,879
Speaker 1: On I'll help you out. It about pleasuring yourself even

860
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:16,040
Speaker 1: when there's people watching. Twenty four seven our guests today

861
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:18,359
Speaker 1: found a creative way to do it. I'm not going

862
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:20,839
Speaker 1: to go into any further details other than the say

863
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:23,399
Speaker 1: it's in the book, but it made me laugh when

864
00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:26,480
Speaker 1: I was reading it, So a little victory to you. Congratulations.

865
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:30,760
Speaker 1: You've got to laugh at these things, haven't you. Well,

866
00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:33,360
Speaker 1: And I would imagine that.

867
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:39,000
Speaker 2: Well, if if all there is, if the things around

868
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:41,760
Speaker 2: you only give you pain, then you can create pleasure

869
00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:47,839
Speaker 2: for yourself. Whether it's remembering something beautiful or planning what

870
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:51,600
Speaker 2: I'm going to say that's loving and affectionate at the

871
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 2: next embassy visit to my family, or going through some

872
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:03,000
Speaker 2: you know, really lovely sentences in a book, yeah, or

873
00:57:03,440 --> 00:57:07,319
Speaker 2: other things. Then you just got to I think that's

874
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:11,080
Speaker 2: actually very Australian to be self reliant. Because we're so

875
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:16,760
Speaker 2: remote and we can't always get help. You just toughen

876
00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:18,200
Speaker 2: up and do things yourself.

877
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:23,160
Speaker 1: You paid tribute to the fact that the Australian side

878
00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:24,800
Speaker 1: of your help you get through a lot of this.

879
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:28,320
Speaker 1: You think that's genuine because you understand the whole cultures,

880
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:31,480
Speaker 1: But the Australian side just a little bit what we

881
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 1: like to think. We are a little bit rebellious and

882
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:36,600
Speaker 1: get in, have a go and we can survive this

883
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:39,720
Speaker 1: tough times. We'll get through that type of attitude.

884
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:42,280
Speaker 2: And we can always crack some daggy jokes, yeah, and

885
00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:45,600
Speaker 2: have a laugh at ourselves, have a laugh at people

886
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:50,480
Speaker 2: who take themselves too seriously. Yeah, and get on with

887
00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:52,720
Speaker 2: it all right.

888
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:55,080
Speaker 1: Well, look we might take a break now that we've

889
00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:57,560
Speaker 1: only got your six months into a three year sentence,

890
00:57:57,600 --> 00:57:59,200
Speaker 1: and this is just the start of it. You haven't

891
00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:02,640
Speaker 1: even met yourself yet. And that's other little party tricks

892
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:04,920
Speaker 1: that you got up to with your home brew and

893
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:08,880
Speaker 1: daycake cakes and all that. We laugh about it, but

894
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:13,000
Speaker 1: what you're also experience is that you're not just a deprivation,

895
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:15,160
Speaker 1: but you're away from your family and all the pain

896
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 1: that that creates. So you know, as much as we

897
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:19,720
Speaker 1: laugh at it, yeah, it was a hell of a

898
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:23,560
Speaker 1: situation you found yourself in, but you're still here. They

899
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:24,320
Speaker 1: didn't break.

900
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:28,680
Speaker 2: You, no, And I'm trying to Gary Gazza.

901
00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:32,160
Speaker 1: All right, don't turn it on me. You're a professional journalist.

902
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:34,680
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to make a living in this business.

903
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:37,280
Speaker 1: When we get back for part two, we'll talk about

904
00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:40,440
Speaker 1: what happened with the trial, the sentence, and how you

905
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:43,720
Speaker 1: eventually found your freedom and how you survived it, because

906
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 1: I think that's a really interesting time.

907
00:58:45,880 --> 00:59:00,280
Speaker 2: Great cheers, Thank you, Ka