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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life. The average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: In part two of my chat, we've recently retired police

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Speaker 1: officer Gordon Drage. We talked about more murders Gordon was

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Speaker 1: involved in, including the murder of a former Russian KGB

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Speaker 1: agent on the Gold Coast. We also talked about the

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Speaker 1: infamous and horrific bodies in the Barrel murder case in

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Speaker 1: South Australia. Some other tragic events Gordon was involved in,

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Speaker 1: including the Dream World tragedy and the Sea World helicopter crash.

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Speaker 1: Gordon also spoke very openly about his own mental breakdown

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Speaker 1: and what he's doing now helping first responders in their families. Now,

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Speaker 1: these are pretty heavy topics, but I think you'll find

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Speaker 1: Gordon's perspective quite enlightened. Gordon Drech, welcome back Part two

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Speaker 1: by catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thank you very much.

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Speaker 1: And you've certainly seen the results of a lot of

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Speaker 1: killers in your time as a crime scene officer.

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Speaker 2: I have this yeah, yeah, I don't normally see them

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Speaker 2: face to face, of course, but usually in court I

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Speaker 2: have to walk past the witness box.

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Speaker 1: That's another aspect of crime sceone that you spend a

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Speaker 1: lot of time in the witness box.

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Speaker 2: We certainly used to, not so much of recent years

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Speaker 2: because Queensland have changed the way that they do their things. Now,

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Speaker 2: if you're a defense Lizien and you want to call

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Speaker 2: a witness, you've got to explain why and what sort

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Speaker 2: of things you want to ask him. And I think

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Speaker 2: with DNA and that sort of stuff, in the early days,

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Speaker 2: we were getting called yeah, just to stand there and say, well,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, I can't explain it either. You need

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Speaker 2: to call it scientist, whereas now they would just call

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Speaker 2: a scientist or they don't even try and challenge DNA evidence.

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Speaker 2: Now I think it's above out of the scope of

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Speaker 2: most of our solicitors. They just go, well, it's DNA.

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Speaker 2: They accept it, it's legitimate and valid.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's right. They used to contest it. But you're

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Speaker 1: also the defense would hire the expert or an expert

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Speaker 1: to contradict what you've said. And I saw some there

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Speaker 1: must have been a lot of preparation before you gave evidence.

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Speaker 1: As a crime scene officer.

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Speaker 2: Usually I like to be prepped. I don't like hate

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Speaker 2: that feeling of being called off guard. And so, yeah,

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Speaker 2: you stand in the witness boxing. Oh oh, he just looks.

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Speaker 1: Silly involved, isn't that because the jury are looking at you, and.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, certainly this this theater bond part of some

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Speaker 2: defense more than.

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Speaker 1: The defense often ask questions that they know you can't answer,

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Speaker 1: and then they'll look at the jury when you go,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, and then they'll roll their eyes and

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Speaker 1: look at the jury. That's the theater of the court.

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Speaker 2: That's it. And this person's pretending to be an expert

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Speaker 2: in this field, but I don't know. The answer to

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Speaker 2: these things. Yeah, it's all about not trying to not stupid.

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Speaker 2: But like coming on podcast, really.

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Speaker 1: Hopefully we're not making me look stupid. I always but

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Speaker 1: if we can. I'm staffed. I do my best, but

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Speaker 1: I've got my notes, so I look half in for

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk about more murders. One that I

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Speaker 1: found particularly particularly interesting in the nature of the victim,

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Speaker 1: and that was a Gerardi Banofsky, a former KGB agent,

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Speaker 1: murder on the Gold Coast. Do you want to tell

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Speaker 1: us about that case, what your your involvement and what

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Speaker 1: you did.

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Speaker 2: That He was one of my first murder more than

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Speaker 2: he was my first murder on the Gold Coast.

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Speaker 1: And after I came back to friendsis, that's what we're

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Speaker 1: going to put out, my first murder on the Gold case.

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Speaker 2: Just got the confession, no one else has got it.

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Speaker 2: There's a reward. Can we share it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: I was. We were stationing at Broadbeach at that stage,

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Speaker 2: our office was and I just pulled into the car

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Speaker 2: park at the back of the police station. I think

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Speaker 2: I think I might've been going to knock off for

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Speaker 2: the night or at least have a meal, and then

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Speaker 2: I heard this job come across the radio, and it

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Speaker 2: was one of the few addresses I'd still learned in

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Speaker 2: the short time I've been at Broadbeach, so I actually

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Speaker 2: knew where it was. I didn't have forget the map

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Speaker 2: out because this is pre GPS's so I didn't have

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Speaker 2: to ex physically get the map book out and look

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Speaker 2: it up and do those things, so I could drive

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Speaker 2: straight there. So off I went, because they said this

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Speaker 2: person has just been shot a number of times and

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Speaker 2: it's not looking good. So I'm going I think I'm

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Speaker 2: probably only one of two, maybe the best, maybe three

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Speaker 2: forensic people working that shift anyway, so it had to

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Speaker 2: beat down to me. So I've gone in. I'm keeping

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Speaker 2: my eyes peeled as you do, trying to race in

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Speaker 2: looking for suspect vehicles or things. Because it's a It

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Speaker 2: happened in a like what do you call it, a

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Speaker 2: canal a state, So there's a waterfront properties, so there's

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Speaker 2: only a couple of ways in and out of a

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Speaker 2: cross bridge.

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Speaker 1: He's frontage and the canal.

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Speaker 2: At the rear of the Yeah, they've got boats and

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Speaker 2: stuff at the back of of them. Mister Minovsky didn't

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Speaker 2: have a boat. He was on a dry block, but

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Speaker 2: the house opposite him or had had a river frontage,

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Speaker 2: so there's only a couple of roads in and out.

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Speaker 2: You've got to cross bridges so you can isolate the

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Speaker 2: island really quickly, both closing those bridges down. So I'm

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Speaker 2: going in thinking I'm listening on radio. They're getting other

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Speaker 2: people to go and shut those bridges to stop and

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Speaker 2: record people coming out. So he's been putting his bins

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Speaker 2: out one night and it's just just gone dusk, so

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Speaker 2: he's put his bins out, and then as he's going

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Speaker 2: back to put his or back into the house, he's

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Speaker 2: been shot multiple times with a semi automatic weapon and

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Speaker 2: he's then collapsed and died just inside the door of

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Speaker 2: his house. He'd gone through the garage and he's in

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Speaker 2: front of his wife and child. He's just fallen down

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Speaker 2: and aphis he's bled to death from his injuries. So

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Speaker 2: we've gone in there, taken the photos and done the

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Speaker 2: process the scene. Then I have to then call in

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Speaker 2: the senior other people, so becomes a much bigger crime

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Speaker 2: scene then. But I'm initially there to try and secure

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Speaker 2: the crime scene, get it ready, to make sure no

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Speaker 2: one's muck about with it too much, and we maximize

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Speaker 2: their chance of getting the evidence. During that first few

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Speaker 2: hours ago, we think we think some frogmen have come

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Speaker 2: from the canal across the road, the vacant block. I said,

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Speaker 2: some frogmen said like wetsuits.

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Speaker 1: You know aquial now and this is police at the scene.

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Speaker 2: This is police at the scene of It's not unusual.

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Speaker 1: For police at the scene to give you an update

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Speaker 1: on what they know. So what you're looking out for

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Speaker 1: certain things.

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Speaker 2: Keep us in the loops what we say, because then

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Speaker 2: some of the times we can go very quickly yes

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Speaker 2: or no, that didn't happen. Yeah, that's plausible. But when

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Speaker 2: I heard this leisurely the frogmen, I thought, crap, that's

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Speaker 2: just straight out the movie. Yeah, a couple of blakes

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Speaker 2: and wet suits come out of the canal, pop him

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Speaker 2: off and down we go. And this day is I

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Speaker 2: don't think I actually knew was CAZy b x CAGYB person.

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Speaker 2: So I thought, that's that's just so far affects was crazy.

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Speaker 2: But they ran with that for what I think now

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Speaker 2: all these years later, that's actually now been pretty much

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Speaker 2: universally debunked. But I don't know how else they got

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Speaker 2: into him. There was no vehicles there was no not

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Speaker 2: that aware of and there was no vehicles I passed,

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Speaker 2: no people. I came in through the main road, So look,

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Speaker 2: maybe a frogwin. They did come up in wet suits

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Speaker 2: and snorkels, but they have then gone back and have

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Speaker 2: fled back to Russia. I believe, I think they know

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Speaker 2: who that man is. But he's gone back to Russia

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Speaker 2: and he's been there ever since, and he's been probably

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Speaker 2: protected a little bit by the Russians.

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Speaker 1: It's still still unsolved, but it was gets your curiosity when, yeah,

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Speaker 1: even the fact with a former KGB agent and killed

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Speaker 1: in circumstances, circumstances.

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Speaker 2: Like that, because he had a business partner as well,

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Speaker 2: I think was a suspect for at one point he

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Speaker 2: was in business with someone. There was quite a lot

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Speaker 2: of Russians on the Gold Coast back in those days.

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Speaker 2: We're talking two thousand and this one two thousand and one,

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Speaker 2: maybe there was basically two thousand and he was one

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Speaker 2: of a large group of Russians we had on the coast.

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Speaker 2: Not so much. I don't think Russians are there as

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Speaker 2: much anymore, but a lot of them are living in

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Speaker 2: very exclusive enclaves and houses and things, so there was

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Speaker 2: a lot of Russian money on the Gold Coast back

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Speaker 2: in those days, So whether or not some of that

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Speaker 2: was dirty money, I don't know, but he obviously upsets

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Speaker 2: someone to a point where they felt he needed to

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Speaker 2: be killed.

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Speaker 1: Not alluding to him being assay said with the Russian mafia,

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Speaker 1: but I saw that come up a couple of times

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Speaker 1: throughout my career, and yeah, don't mess with them.

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Speaker 2: No, clearly not. But of course x KGB he had

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Speaker 2: some business debts I gather, or perhaps some poor disnt

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Speaker 2: business dealings. It made it very hard for the police

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Speaker 2: to follow a particular line of inquiry because there were

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Speaker 2: so many variables that it could have come into play.

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Speaker 2: And when their main suspect fled back to Russia, I

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Speaker 2: don't make an extra rip from Russia, but a bit

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Speaker 2: challenging trying to stop a war in the Ukraine.

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Speaker 1: Well that's going really well, well, great stage the state

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Speaker 1: at this point in time. Difference between we've taken you

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Speaker 1: from South Australia the Queensland the nature of the crime

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Speaker 1: or the type of work, but also the culture of

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Speaker 1: the police. That's two parts a question. But nature of

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Speaker 1: the crime is there any different from what you were

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Speaker 1: experiencing down in South Australia.

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Speaker 2: Not really Forensically, it was very much the same because

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Speaker 2: forensics is forensic's pretty much a universal standard across the world.

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Speaker 2: Fingerprints have always been done much the same way. It's

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Speaker 2: how you process these different bits that might be slightly

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Speaker 2: slight variance. But I was fortunate when I came from

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Speaker 2: South Australia because I'd had such an extensive and fortunate

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Speaker 2: career there and done a lot with forensics. When I

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Speaker 2: came to Queensland, once they had found out what I

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Speaker 2: had done, I got RPL for my studies. I didn't

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Speaker 2: need to go back through their training course. They sat

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Speaker 2: me down and I did some on road assessments and

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Speaker 2: I did the exam a forensic exam from the previous

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Speaker 2: course and past that. So then they then signed me

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Speaker 2: off with RPL, so I didn't have to go through

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Speaker 2: the whole rigmarole of the three month course and all

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Speaker 2: those bits and pieces had the qualify, had the runs

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Speaker 2: on the board.

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Speaker 1: Did you know there's any difference in the way that

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Speaker 1: police in South Australia operate compared the Queensland.

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Speaker 2: I used to. I think initially I thought the Queensland

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Speaker 2: the I think the South Astralian Police did it a

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Speaker 2: little more professionally, but that's now probably been replaced with

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Speaker 2: Now they're much the same. Queensland made leaps and bounds

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Speaker 2: in a lot of the areas since I came up.

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Speaker 2: Certainly friendically they were, I'm going to say, certainly a country,

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Speaker 2: Australian leading with the creation of the Fringic Register that

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Speaker 2: they've now sold on to other companies and other police services.

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Speaker 2: I think every police service, state and territory in Australia

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Speaker 2: is using a form of the Queensland Friensic Register. And

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Speaker 2: what to what said involved that's it online? Well, we've

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Speaker 2: bought laptops in the cars. You put your notes straight

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Speaker 2: into that. You can't bload your digital photo straight to it.

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Speaker 2: Anywhere across the state can look at it. So I

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Speaker 2: could you know you might be at the scene. I

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Speaker 2: can look at your notes and see what you've got

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Speaker 2: there straight away. Revolutionized the speed that we can get

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Speaker 2: results and things like that. Hence that I mentioned earlier

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Speaker 2: about the guy at the roadside hit by car. Twenty

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Speaker 2: minutes later he's identified because I can put those notes on,

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Speaker 2: send them some pictures. This is it bring them up.

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Speaker 2: Can you fast track this one for me? They put

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Speaker 2: it through the National fingerprint system and back he came

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Speaker 2: in the year's gone by. That roll of film would

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Speaker 2: have to go to usually a motorcycle policeman and he

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Speaker 2: would drive it to Brisbane. He physically run up through

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Speaker 2: the traffic, get it to Brisbane. They'd have to then

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Speaker 2: develop that print off the feaders. They need get the

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Speaker 2: fever Ureau. Then they have to We're still talking in

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Speaker 2: a rush job with film. He's still talking probably eight

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Speaker 2: or ten and maybe twelve hours as a rush job.

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Speaker 2: And that was it.

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Speaker 1: And it's crucial at that early stage damnegations, if you

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Speaker 1: get that information and start to be able to absolutely

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Speaker 1: it's crucial for you. All right, the bodies in the

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Speaker 1: barrel case, Now you were the person that open the

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Speaker 1: first barrel, do you. I'm sure everyone listening to the

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Speaker 1: podcast and people have an understanding what that was about.

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Speaker 1: I think one of the country's was cases of serial killing.

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Speaker 1: There was twelve victims all up, not all in the

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Speaker 1: barrels fourteen fourteen fourteen. Tell us the circumstances, just how

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Speaker 1: it happened for you, because I think it's something that

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Speaker 1: you prepare yourself in policing that you're ready to see

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Speaker 1: the extraordinary, or see the horrific, or see things, but

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Speaker 1: this is taking it to another level. So tell us

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Speaker 1: from your personal experience what happened that was.

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Speaker 2: It turned out to be a bizarre day, but it

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Speaker 2: was just a regget every day. I remember I started

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Speaker 2: my shifting Kadeena and my opposite number in the Barossa Valley.

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Speaker 2: He was on holiday, so we didn't He was the

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Speaker 2: one man unit like I was, So when he was

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Speaker 2: on holiday I would go across and do some jobs

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Speaker 2: in his area if they were urgently needed to be done.

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Speaker 2: So I had this lovely pleasant country drive across from

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Speaker 2: the Orphans across to the Brossa Valley. I'm on the

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Speaker 2: outskirts of sort of clear, I think at that stage,

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Speaker 2: and because of my experience with vehicle examinations, there was

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Speaker 2: just an abandoned car Shashi just stripped down to nothing,

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Speaker 2: just dumped out side of the road. So I remember I

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Speaker 2: was looking at that at the time, trying to identify it.

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Speaker 2: And I got a phone call from old bosses in

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Speaker 2: Adelaide and said, look, we've got this job at Snowtown.

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Speaker 2: Is there any chance you can be there for eleven

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Speaker 2: o'clock because we had we had a whole team teed

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Speaker 2: up to come, but they've had another murder overnight in Adelaide.

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Speaker 2: They should do it, is what happened to Adelaide. I

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Speaker 2: think it was just a one person murder, not a

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Speaker 2: series of them.

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Speaker 1: We've done the cops when South Australian Police someone's murdered.

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Speaker 2: So they'd had a murder which had blown their plans

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Speaker 2: out the water. So the crew that were supposed to

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Speaker 2: be coming to Snowtown to do this job could no

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Speaker 2: longer come because they've been up all night and we're

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Speaker 2: still working through this. So they said, if you're available

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Speaker 2: to go to Snowtown we need, we'll send another person

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Speaker 2: up who's quite junior, but we're only going to send

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Speaker 2: her if you can be there, otherwise the whole job's

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Speaker 2: going to go off. I said, yeah, of course I can.

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Speaker 2: I'll go. I can go across now. So I said

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Speaker 2: okay then, so they said it's the job still on.

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Speaker 2: So I got to Snowtown I think just before twelve,

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Speaker 2: because it was.

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Speaker 1: Sort of information that they provided to you.

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Speaker 2: They just said we just needed to go over there

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Speaker 2: and meet with the rest of the detectives. They're going

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Speaker 2: to take some photos and video and photograph of house. Yeah, okay, cool,

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Speaker 2: no problem. So I've pulled up outside the Snowtown Police

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Speaker 2: and there's a tow truck there and some other police cars,

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Speaker 2: and so I've gone inside. They said, what do you

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Speaker 2: know at the job? I said nothing really, I just

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Speaker 2: told to meet here at eleven o'clock and sorry, I'm late.

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Speaker 2: And they handed me an a four piece of paper.

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Speaker 2: The top half of that had a list of names,

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Speaker 2: about ten ten maybe names, and on the bottom half

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Speaker 2: was a whole list of property things like three piece green,

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Speaker 2: three piece leather lounge suitets, television, different brands and that

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Speaker 2: sort of stuff. And they said, top half are all missing,

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Speaker 2: per bottom half are all properly. We know I'm missing

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Speaker 2: from their various houses and their residence. Okay, They said,

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Speaker 2: we had surveillance and followed one of the main suspects

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Speaker 2: across the road. We're going to seize the car which

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Speaker 2: was his, and we're going to take some pictures and

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Speaker 2: some video of the whole house inside and outside. Just

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Speaker 2: so down the track, if the family say, oh, we've

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Speaker 2: noticed they're missing this, this and this, we will be

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Speaker 2: able to compare the photos in the video and see

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Speaker 2: if it's there. It was easy, and in the forensic

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Speaker 2: world it's just a photo job technically, And we laugh

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Speaker 2: about this all the time in forensics, the amount of

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Speaker 2: times we get called to things, Oh can you just

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Speaker 2: come out to this particular scene or this particular job.

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Speaker 2: It's usually detectives. So I just want I just want

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Speaker 2: some photos, just some photos. And when you get there,

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Speaker 2: they want photos, they want DNA and they want everything else,

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Speaker 2: and that ten minute photojog turns into a two and

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Speaker 2: a half hours year. I should be off an hour ago.

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Speaker 1: Fair Gordon that's getting you there in the first place, is.

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Speaker 2: Pretty happy to come outn't fit to us. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: so we've I've gone there for prey photo job and

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Speaker 2: it was always going to be a p it truly was,

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Speaker 2: because nobody knew what we were about to find. So

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Speaker 2: I've started photographing and doing video for the house. The

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Speaker 2: other lady that's come up, she's doing the notes because

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Speaker 2: I've given notice I'm moving to Queensland. My half my

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Speaker 2: stuff at my house is in boxes ready to move.

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Speaker 2: I'm literally within the last two weeks at my time

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Speaker 2: at the south. Yeah, I'm going it's so I said, look,

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Speaker 2: I won't be able to follow this story. So she said,

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Speaker 2: I'll do the notes and I'll just do your photos.

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Speaker 2: That was easy, and then we're probably I've done the

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Speaker 2: outside of the house and part way through a couple

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Speaker 2: of rooms on the inside the house and doing some

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Speaker 2: photos and then the detective callsed me out in the front.

349
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Speaker 2: He says, we chat. So he went out of the

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Speaker 2: front said we're talking to the owner. As you know,

351
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Speaker 2: they just talk and what can I just think? What

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Speaker 2: are we talking about with Snowtown? Does it describe the town? Well,

353
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Speaker 2: it's an old railway town, so it's literally got a

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Speaker 2: railer line running right through the middle of it has

355
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Speaker 2: trains once or twice a week or day comes through

356
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Speaker 2: because it's the main line to port period and why

357
00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:09,000
Speaker 2: Ala and it still works, so they've still got trains.

358
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Speaker 2: It's still an active train line. But it used to

359
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Speaker 2: be just a railway town. This is a couple of

360
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Speaker 2: silos and stuff there, so really small, really small. I

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Speaker 2: think the population was maybe including the surround the area,

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Speaker 2: you're probably talking maybe nine hundred, one thousand people. The

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Speaker 2: township itself probably contains maybe a couple of hundred if that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, main street.

365
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's got a main street. The train line takes

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Speaker 2: at the bulk of it. It's got a main street.

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Speaker 2: I don't think there's any banks left anymore. It's got

368
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Speaker 2: a pub, a bakery. There might be a few more

369
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:44,119
Speaker 2: businesses have coming in recent years, but back then it

370
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Speaker 2: was pretty much there was. It was a two man

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Speaker 2: police station because they had the surrounding district to look

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Speaker 2: after as well.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so that's very much.

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Speaker 2: A rural town. Yeah, it's about an hour and a

375
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Speaker 2: half from north of Adelaide, so you're talking fairly remote

376
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Speaker 2: from Adelade hour and a half drive, two hours drive

377
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Speaker 2: maybe close to the period that was to Adelacate.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so you're you're turned up there just to get

379
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Speaker 1: photos who had explained the job and then one of

380
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Speaker 1: the detectives had been speaking to a lady in the

381
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Speaker 1: house and a man in the house. Man in the

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Speaker 1: house and okay, where have we gone from me?

383
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Speaker 2: So he said, he's just told us that John Bunting

384
00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:18,600
Speaker 2: has turned up here in that car that they were

385
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Speaker 2: going to take and one time it had it was

386
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Speaker 2: full of barrels full of smelly stuff. And he said,

387
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,959
Speaker 2: the barrels an arrow over at the bank. And apparently

388
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:29,600
Speaker 2: when we first told me the story, they all started

389
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:31,520
Speaker 2: craning in the neck and looking across the road. Think

390
00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:33,840
Speaker 2: it was over the railway embankment because it's a big

391
00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,320
Speaker 2: mount dirt hiding the rail line. And the bloke said, no, no,

392
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Speaker 2: he said, in the old bank, the old state bank.

393
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Speaker 2: I leased that or rented whatever term he used. He said.

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Speaker 2: So he said, they're in the vault in there. He said,

395
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Speaker 2: they said, well, what was in there? Didn't you ask him?

396
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Speaker 1: Oh?

397
00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, what's this? It's not like dead cats? And he mean,

398
00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:52,320
Speaker 2: you don't want to know, since I didn't ask anymore.

399
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Speaker 2: Just a simple country man, and to this day he's

400
00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,199
Speaker 2: never been charged with anything. He was just a I

401
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,199
Speaker 2: guess maybe trusting of this bloke. He'd didn't overthink it.

402
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,920
Speaker 2: I didn't overthink it, definitely not. So we've said, okay,

403
00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:08,439
Speaker 2: we've been down tors for to go over there. Then

404
00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:10,840
Speaker 2: see what these barrels are. So now I photo jobs

405
00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,720
Speaker 2: now going to include the bank, which is fine. So

406
00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,439
Speaker 2: I've jumped in the vehicle. We've gone around, originally to

407
00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,639
Speaker 2: an old bank, and we're think the key we've got

408
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,160
Speaker 2: it's not working. He gave us the key and it's

409
00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:27,480
Speaker 2: not working. The door and little old ladies come past

410
00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:30,880
Speaker 2: because it's now near the main street. Can I help you, dear,

411
00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:33,760
Speaker 2: we're just looking for the State Oh this is this

412
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:35,080
Speaker 2: is the A and Z bank. Love, Do you want

413
00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:36,800
Speaker 2: to go around the corner State Banks? Around the corner

414
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:39,320
Speaker 2: that's closed. It's all closed. I can't get the money.

415
00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:41,879
Speaker 2: Thank you. That's good. So we around the corner we go,

416
00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,159
Speaker 2: and then we find the right bank. So we go

417
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,520
Speaker 2: round to the back into the back door and like

418
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Speaker 2: the manager's office I suppose it would have been, and

419
00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:53,200
Speaker 2: we're standing there thinking like cannabis to me, because they've

420
00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:55,320
Speaker 2: got previous for growing cannabis. Yeah, so I know about

421
00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:55,720
Speaker 2: the stuff.

422
00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:58,960
Speaker 1: You are one of the.

423
00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:05,240
Speaker 2: So I thought, oh, this would be drugs. Barrels liquid,

424
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:07,840
Speaker 2: bound to be drugs. So we were at this mindset

425
00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,240
Speaker 2: and were half expecting to find drugs in there. Got

426
00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:12,760
Speaker 2: the key, went in and I said, okay, I've got

427
00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:16,440
Speaker 2: my gloves on. Quickly a video started videoing in the door.

428
00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,000
Speaker 2: We went in, went straight to the kitchen, little dining

429
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:20,600
Speaker 2: table in the middle where the bank staff would have

430
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,360
Speaker 2: had their lunch and things little kitchen. It through the

431
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,359
Speaker 2: back door to what would have been behind the counter,

432
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,000
Speaker 2: and then there's just a counter and there's just lined

433
00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:34,000
Speaker 2: with old computers and dv VCRs and DVD plants, things

434
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,600
Speaker 2: like that. Because this fellow who lived in the house

435
00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,439
Speaker 2: across the road, he rented that space to repair electronics

436
00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,160
Speaker 2: and stuff. That was his job. He would be the

437
00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,920
Speaker 2: local retrovision or whatever it was, the local electoral shot

438
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:47,760
Speaker 2: would send him their warranty work and he would either

439
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:49,679
Speaker 2: try and fix it or then they would just trash it.

440
00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:51,360
Speaker 2: So he had a lot of that stuff along aroundy there.

441
00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:53,040
Speaker 2: That's what he used the space for. But he never

442
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:55,800
Speaker 2: used the vault. So Bunting had said, can I use

443
00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,440
Speaker 2: the vault? So we did. So I got in there.

444
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,919
Speaker 2: The vault was closed and the handle wasn't moving. The

445
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,159
Speaker 2: tumbler just felt like it was just spinning freely. It

446
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,160
Speaker 2: didn't feel like it was anything there, So okay, So

447
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:09,040
Speaker 2: then there was this discussion about what are we going

448
00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:10,200
Speaker 2: to do, How we going to get in a couple

449
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:11,919
Speaker 2: of detectives went off to make some phone calls and

450
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:14,040
Speaker 2: they were talking thermal lancers and those sorts of things.

451
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,480
Speaker 2: When I didn't want any thermal answers, because I knew

452
00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:18,679
Speaker 2: that was you know, you're talking massive heat, lots of

453
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,840
Speaker 2: smoke damage, and we don't know what's in there, and

454
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:24,880
Speaker 2: I just think it's just going to destroy the vault

455
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,680
Speaker 2: and potentially for no good reason. So I thought, before

456
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:30,720
Speaker 2: they do all this stuff, I'm going to own fingerprinted.

457
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,359
Speaker 2: And they hadn't bought a fingerprint kit, hadn't come up

458
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:35,760
Speaker 2: from Adelaide with them, so it was still in my car,

459
00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:38,160
Speaker 2: which I was left across the road. So I've walked

460
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,879
Speaker 2: across the railway and bank, across the tracks, gone across

461
00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:43,520
Speaker 2: there and said to the local policeman, I said, well,

462
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:45,640
Speaker 2: we're into the bank, but we can't get the vault

463
00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,400
Speaker 2: ome it's all locked. And he's sitting with the occumen

464
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,879
Speaker 2: of the house at that stage, and he said, I said, no,

465
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:53,080
Speaker 2: you don't need a key, so you just need a

466
00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:56,000
Speaker 2: bit of wire sitting into the keyhole. So I'll get

467
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:57,480
Speaker 2: you up. So he jumped out. The police car takes

468
00:21:57,520 --> 00:21:59,000
Speaker 2: inside of his house and he's got this big roll

469
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,000
Speaker 2: of fencing. Wine cut me off a piece, bends it

470
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:02,840
Speaker 2: up like right now. It was like a little divining rod,

471
00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:05,400
Speaker 2: and she just put them in he said, and just

472
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:07,800
Speaker 2: just wiggle around the key. Things inside. He said, it

473
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:08,360
Speaker 2: a little open.

474
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:10,960
Speaker 1: Okay, you're a safe breaker as well.

475
00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:13,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so I save break as well, as it

476
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 2: turns out, So I didn't know I've gone back with

477
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:17,080
Speaker 2: this little bent up like a divining rod. It's just

478
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,040
Speaker 2: a little little piece of wire, a lot of coat

479
00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:22,320
Speaker 2: hanger really. So I've walked in and by this stage

480
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:24,320
Speaker 2: everyone else has lost interest. They've gone off to make

481
00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,480
Speaker 2: phone calls and things. There's there's my other forensic colleague,

482
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:29,880
Speaker 2: and there's one detective there who pretty much started all

483
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,879
Speaker 2: who was a lad i'd work with back in my

484
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 2: early days in Elizabeth. So I walked in, I said,

485
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,760
Speaker 2: I've got the key, and they've all crowned me and

486
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:43,640
Speaker 2: I hold this bit of bent wire. And of course

487
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:45,480
Speaker 2: the look they gave me, I can't I can't probably

488
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:47,920
Speaker 2: describe it, but it was that worse thing. You could

489
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:49,399
Speaker 2: just see it in their head. They're going, You're an

490
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 2: absolute normal, You're complete normal. Yeah, well, I have no time, nothing,

491
00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:00,240
Speaker 2: no time like the present. Bronnie was having her lounch,

492
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:02,440
Speaker 2: started to have some lunch because she brought hers with U.

493
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 2: I was planning to be home for lunch. So the

494
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,000
Speaker 2: local snowtank copper was going to go to the bakery

495
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,159
Speaker 2: and get me, get me a pie or something. So

496
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 2: while I'm waiting, I'll just have a thing. So I

497
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:13,760
Speaker 2: just got down on my knees and I'm looking through

498
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:15,399
Speaker 2: this keyhole, this piece of wire I put it in.

499
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,639
Speaker 2: I'm fiddling around, and I've got my hand just resting

500
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:19,640
Speaker 2: on the top of the big lever on the vot

501
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 2: on the vault door, and then suddenly it's just gone down.

502
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 2: I don't think anyone was more surprise than I was

503
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 2: with the hell I'm in.

504
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 1: Here going to encourage a loather bank robbery.

505
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:30,159
Speaker 2: Trust me, guys, and I wouldn't take it up as

506
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 2: a profession. So if this thing's opened, it's unlocked. Oh wow.

507
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,159
Speaker 2: So wait, before we opened the door, I had to

508
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,560
Speaker 2: go and get the little video camera was using, So okay,

509
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,640
Speaker 2: And then the detective opened the door, and again there's

510
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 2: still no smell, and we're just confronted with this wall

511
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 2: of black plastic. There was sticky taped all the way

512
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 2: around like big white, two inch sort of wide clear

513
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 2: plastic tape floor ceiling all around the doors, and a

514
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 2: slip down the middle. It was all sticky taped up.

515
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 2: So the video shows that, you know, there's him peeling

516
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 2: this off, and as soon as he peels it off,

517
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 2: then he said, oh no, it's not it's not drugs.

518
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,680
Speaker 2: Not drugs, And he could you could smell straight away

519
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:10,399
Speaker 2: as soon as he opened the seal and break the

520
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 2: seal if you like, we could smell the human sort

521
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 2: of well, the rotting meats makee case.

522
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 1: So the black plastic was sealing off an area within

523
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,920
Speaker 1: the safe, sealing off the whole door, right, yeah, so

524
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:21,920
Speaker 1: much opened the vault.

525
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:23,360
Speaker 2: Yeah there's this, there's this whole thing.

526
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,440
Speaker 1: Okay, And once that's been a little tapes, Paul Bear,

527
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 1: that's when you've got a whiff of the smell. No,

528
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 1: or assume what it was at that point in time.

529
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,160
Speaker 2: I think at that stay we realized it wasn't drugs.

530
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:36,879
Speaker 2: When we first saw the plastic, I think on the

531
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 2: video and him say oh it drugs. Thought it's just

532
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 2: be plastic lined like so many hydrophonic drug places are.

533
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 2: So but as soon as we break the seal, it wasn't.

534
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 2: It wasn't hydroponic smell. It was there was something dead

535
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 2: was in there. So I said, okay, wait, we got

536
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 2: the torch. I think detective held the torch and I

537
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 2: held the video and we just sort of panned around

538
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:57,679
Speaker 2: in it as we could see. And that's when we

539
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 2: could see on the video screen we had number of barrels.

540
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,119
Speaker 2: Could see the green Lounge Street that was on that

541
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 2: list standing up on its end in the corner of

542
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 2: the vault, and we thought, okay, this has suddenly become

543
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 2: a bit more sinister.

544
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:12,480
Speaker 1: And in the.

545
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 2: Door because the safe, the vault door is really quite thick,

546
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 2: so it has like a I suppose the doorframe is

547
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:24,680
Speaker 2: about eighteen inch or toil drainages thick inside that little doorframe.

548
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:26,399
Speaker 2: But so when you close the door, before you get

549
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 2: to the plastic there was a notebook, a wallet, and

550
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:30,439
Speaker 2: another bits and pieces. So once we had a look

551
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 2: at those, and that's when we learned then that somebody

552
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 2: we'd never heard of the wallet belonged to. Once we

553
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,640
Speaker 2: did some checks and that was the last victim. Johnson

554
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,199
Speaker 2: was killed there the night before, I think the night

555
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,479
Speaker 2: before a couple of days before, and we'd sat there

556
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,120
Speaker 2: and had our lunch on the floor. Thought the carp

557
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,640
Speaker 2: it feels a bit damp. Lift up the carpet tile

558
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 2: did some testing for blood negative, but it was just

559
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 2: damp because that's where they'd hosed down the last killing

560
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 2: on plastic. And inside the vault was this big, big

561
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 2: mound of the black and white plastic you see it,

562
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 2: drug crops, all sort of scrunched up in the corner.

563
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 2: They were streading out.

564
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:06,639
Speaker 1: What sort of size are we talking the vault? Like

565
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 1: the dimensions the vault would be.

566
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 2: I probably used to be able to tell you exactly

567
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 2: what we're talking, probably like four meters by two and

568
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 2: a half meters, and it's it's really tall. It's a

569
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 2: good ten feet tall probably.

570
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,640
Speaker 1: And the barrels we're talking about to describe.

571
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 2: The barrels were they were previously used to tails olives.

572
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 2: Olive barrels, so they were like forty four gallon johns,

573
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 2: but their plastics are there. They're about one point two

574
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 2: meters maybe one point five meters high, probably three or

575
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 2: nearly four feet high. In the old old measure with

576
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,879
Speaker 2: screw top lids, so that had a ring, a separate

577
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 2: ring around the top that we could screw on, and

578
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 2: then that held on like a plug that went in

579
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,159
Speaker 2: the top. So once you got the ring off and

580
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:53,679
Speaker 2: you have to pull a little plug thing out of it,

581
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 2: and you could see what's inside. So they were if

582
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 2: anyone's in the olive industry, they're olive barrels.

583
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 1: That's what they were. Okay, you're you've come in in there.

584
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 1: It's still you thinking your senses.

585
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 2: It's something sinis maybe finding some missing people on here.

586
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 1: The smell is you know, you would know other police

587
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: would have had that smell. You've got how many barrels

588
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 1: were there? Six barrels, six barrels, And what did you

589
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 1: decide to do? And how long did it take you

590
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 1: to decide, Well, we're going to have a look.

591
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 2: That's when we said, well, okay, we got to We've

592
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 2: got to wrap this up now, so we have to

593
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 2: make the phone call to you. We retreated straight away,

594
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,400
Speaker 2: made the phone calls to bosses back in Adelade, said

595
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,479
Speaker 2: this is what's happened. We've just discovered this. We can

596
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 2: see handcuffs, we can see rubber gloves, we can see

597
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 2: some knives in there on top of these barrels. I

598
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,680
Speaker 2: saw and stuff. And now we've got these barrels, so

599
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,680
Speaker 2: we need to start triating this as a fairly major

600
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:48,400
Speaker 2: cr And you've got.

601
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 1: A list of people who assume are missing.

602
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 2: We've got lists of missing people yep, which is interesting

603
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,400
Speaker 2: how that all come aback too, But that's probably after

604
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 2: I finish all this. So we had to sort of

605
00:27:57,880 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 2: then sit back and wait a little bit. So we

606
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 2: catching up on notes and those sorts of things, and

607
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,880
Speaker 2: because I'm trying to spend some time trying to calm

608
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 2: this fellos of new friends, a girl who's really becoming

609
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 2: quite distraught by the whole thing because she's gone from

610
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 2: zero bodies to suddenly she's got what she thinks is

611
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 2: six murders. All these barrels there's a body in each one.

612
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 2: So to cut along story, we basically just stalled and

613
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 2: had there was a debate about what we've got. We

614
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 2: could see on the top of the lounge suite there

615
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:32,399
Speaker 2: was three FIVET containers of hydroglic acid. They look like

616
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 2: they were empty. I don't know whether we went in

617
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,120
Speaker 2: that stone you can't recall now, and whether we test

618
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 2: they're actually empty. But we thought, well, if there's hydrogloric

619
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 2: acid in some of these barrels, what are those risks

620
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 2: to police and stuff? So ring the chemists in Adelaide,

621
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 2: this is the situation, what's the story hydroglic acid is

622
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 2: essentially just like pool chlorine, so it'll have a strong

623
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 2: bleach smell that the vapors and stuff could be toxic

624
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 2: in high concentrations. You probably need to be a bit

625
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 2: careful about sucking the stuf up into your lungs. So

626
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 2: local detectives I worked with has good relationships with a

627
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 2: lot of the local people, even in Snowtown, so he

628
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 2: went down. I was because my previous fire funding experience,

629
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 2: I had used breathing the apparatus before. I'd been trained

630
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 2: to use it and stuff, so I was familiar with that,

631
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 2: and I said, well, if we're going to open them,

632
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 2: because there was this one of the major crime detectives

633
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 2: wanted to take the barrels out and just tip it

634
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 2: on the lawn. Yeah. No, I'm not gonna do that. Yeah,

635
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 2: because they said we've done what we're dealing with yet,

636
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 2: which is true. And as you know, you really need

637
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 2: to have a body or you need to know what

638
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 2: you do.

639
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 1: I'm curious about the discussions and debates because everyone would

640
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 1: have been Okay.

641
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 2: Now what do we do? Yeah, And that's pretty much

642
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 2: what it was. So even the guys when they came

643
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 2: from from adelaide. Then when they all arrived, there was

644
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 2: more discussion about well, where are we going to do it.

645
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 2: They said, well, we're going to have to open them

646
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 2: and check. I say, okay, So I said, look, I'm

647
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 2: I'm trained in breathing the apparatus. If we get some

648
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 2: breathing apparallus, I can go in there. I can open

649
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 2: the barrels, open a barrel and have a look what's inside.

650
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 2: That might satisfy us that we've got what we're dealing with.

651
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 2: And said, then you guys will be outside the vault

652
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 2: and you know you won't be as effected. You'll be

653
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 2: able to tell me whether or not it smells, and

654
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 2: then you can vake it quickly and I can follow

655
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 2: you out. So he went down to local that My

656
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 2: detective went down to local fire station. Said, I can't

657
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 2: tell you why, but I need this and this is

658
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 2: the this is the mentality of these country but the

659
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 2: trust that you've got in them. I can't tell you why.

660
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 2: I can tell you I've got a bloke and nose

661
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 2: how to use it. I need a breathing kit and

662
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 2: I'll bring him back im perfectly good Nick, but he'll

663
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 2: probably need more rare he went, Okay, he hands.

664
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 1: It over love the country.

665
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so he brought it back. I said. So

666
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 2: I got myself all dined up in all this gear.

667
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 2: And by this time we've also had the photographic section

668
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 2: of a ride from Adelaide, so they've got a video

669
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 2: camera runs they're filming me going in. So I've gone

670
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 2: in undone. The first of the barrels took lid off. Pop.

671
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 2: Now that's when I've worked out they've got this little

672
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 2: extra lid. So the ring comes off and then you

673
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 2: peel a little rubber seal back and then you can

674
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 2: see bodies in there. A foot foot in a denim

675
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 2: leg and the denim pair of jeans and stuff like that.

676
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 2: Some of those were in no liquid at all. Others

677
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 2: were almost full with liquid. I think it was only

678
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 2: one that had all the hydrochloric in.

679
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 1: It, so dismembered bodies or bodies that just jammed in there.

680
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 2: Well, I could see most of them. The ones I

681
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 2: could see were upside down. At that stage, there's a

682
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 2: body in each one. I remember the first one I

683
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 2: opened that I could see that like the semi membi

684
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 2: fied foot with some soil on and the genes and

685
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 2: whatever they were wearing. I didn't know that this member

686
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 2: of that stage. I looked in the top and I thought,

687
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,479
Speaker 2: there's someone's just been shoved in here headfirst and their

688
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 2: feet are sort of sticking up.

689
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: So you've opened that first body the first barrel, I

690
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: should say, And you've seen the foot, you've seen you've

691
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: got a body in there. Is it lit up or

692
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 1: did you have to bring your own light in there?

693
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 2: We've no, we had a we had a torch, had

694
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 2: torch like which gives the area more eerie effect when

695
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 2: you look at those Yeah. So the video shows because

696
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 2: I've looked out through the vault door and they're still

697
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 2: standing there. None of them are fainted or collapsed from

698
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 2: the smell and the vapors. Okay, this is this is

699
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 2: a good thing. Then the video guys come in. He's

700
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 2: held his breath just in case he's gone in. He

701
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 2: shoots the video over the top of the barrel and

702
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 2: I'll hold him the torch and he goes back out again,

703
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 2: and then they retreat back out into the main thing.

704
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: You go out there and discuss what you've seen.

705
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 2: Well, they could they could see.

706
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 1: I went back up.

707
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 2: We had the little video show what that was. So

708
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 2: there was definitely bodybits in that one. So then the

709
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 2: decision was made, will continue on and do all of them.

710
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 2: So we knew what we had. So that's when I

711
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 2: went all the way around all of them barrels and

712
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 2: just did the same thing, and he would come quick

713
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 2: video We'll go again. And then we've said, well, now

714
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 2: we've got to get him to Adelaide, and that's when

715
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 2: Roger Bayard was contacted link and he said, we'll just

716
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 2: bring them to me. So we had to bring eight

717
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 2: barrels to them, seal the barrels back up or each

718
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 2: one I'll put the lid back on, and then just

719
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 2: screwed it back down. But of course this whole time,

720
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 2: the opposite corner of where the bank is the Snowtown Hotel. Yeah,

721
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 2: and it's still trading. You know, there are people there

722
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 2: on the balcony out in the front. They're all doing

723
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 2: their thing on it was Wednesday whenever, not the week

724
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 2: it was. They're all there doing their thing at the pub.

725
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 2: So we're thinking, how are we going to do this

726
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 2: without arousing a massive suspicion because they've already got their

727
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 2: suspects in place. Because they've had surveillance on them previously,

728
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 2: and that's how they knew to come to Snowtown. They

729
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 2: had followed him with his car right well, follow him

730
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 2: at one stage. I don't know if they follow him

731
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,479
Speaker 2: the day he hit the barrels, but they followed him

732
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 2: to this house at Snowtown, which is how they got there.

733
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: How many cops were there, Like I would imagine once

734
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: it starts to pass up.

735
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 2: The oh, once it's got the chain, yeah, it's it's

736
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 2: become the full on you know, it's full on, the

737
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 2: full on police circus you've got.

738
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: It would have been basically the street being sealed off

739
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 1: and everything else.

740
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 2: No, because we're still trying to keep it low keys

741
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,479
Speaker 2: and luckily for us, the bank had really high walls,

742
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 2: like had a high fence at the front. Some of

743
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 2: the products high fence, so we could work pretty much

744
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 2: in close. And the front of the bank's got solid

745
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 2: steel doors, so once they were closed, so we're coming

746
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 2: in out through the side door and look at the front.

747
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 2: So very little I think was let slip to the public.

748
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,439
Speaker 2: And the days getting on so that the sun's going

749
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 2: down and the pubs people are probably less likely to

750
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 2: see what we're doing. And so for some reason we

751
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 2: were really lucky there. Nobody in Snowtown's rung the media

752
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:21,799
Speaker 2: and said, hey, what's going on.

753
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,399
Speaker 3: I thought you'd had the cameras there, and yeah, that's

754
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 3: what we were terrified of because we didn't want it

755
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,720
Speaker 3: getting out, because they knew they had their suspects in mind,

756
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,760
Speaker 3: and they needed a recourse surveillance people from their beds

757
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 3: and things and get them in place before they broke.

758
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:42,359
Speaker 1: That's right, you've uncovered it. Okay, A thousand questions. How

759
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 1: long were you you in there opening the barrels? How

760
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 1: long was that process taking?

761
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,399
Speaker 2: Well, I got there at I got there at five

762
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 2: to I saw the job at five to twelve at

763
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 2: the house at the bank. So I think I've gone

764
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 2: to the gone to the bank about one third in

765
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,720
Speaker 2: the afternoon, I think, if I recorded from my notes,

766
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,839
Speaker 2: and I got home at two o'clock the following morning, right,

767
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 2: so pretty much a twelve hour shift there. I remember

768
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 2: ringing my wife and saying, I'll be late home for lunch.

769
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 2: I think it might be there. I'm trying to be

770
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 2: there about two. I didn't mean too the following morning.

771
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 2: I went too that afternoon, but obviously it just didn't

772
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 2: happen that way. So, yeah, that was a big day.

773
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 2: Then we're back again in the morning to finish. The

774
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 2: bodies were gone, so we stayed there until the pub

775
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 2: had closed. It was about midnight when we got the

776
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,240
Speaker 2: barrels out. Inside the vault was a little really old rickety,

777
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 2: little like sack trolley thing, a little finish and moving trolley,

778
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 2: so we used that to load the barrels on and

779
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:41,359
Speaker 2: sort wheel them out, which is probably what they did

780
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,760
Speaker 2: to get them in. Yeah, so we were lucky Cadeena.

781
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,800
Speaker 2: At that stage we'd had quite a large cage trailer

782
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 2: we'd had access to. So Daisy went back and he

783
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 2: drove all the way, drove the hour to Cadeena, drove

784
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,319
Speaker 2: back again for the hour with the trailer, pulled the

785
00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 2: trailer out the front up. The pub's closed and we've

786
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 2: just wheeled this stuff man handle and put it all

787
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 2: into the barrel barrels into the back of this cage

788
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 2: trailer and he's literally driven it straight to the military

789
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 2: in Adelaide.

790
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 1: I ask you a question from a professional point of view,

791
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 1: as in the police officer, but also from a human

792
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 1: point of view, how did you feel when you opened

793
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 1: that first first barrel.

794
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 2: I think in this it was, oh, there's a foot.

795
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 2: I don't know what. I don't think I had any

796
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 2: preconceived idea what I was expected for. I don't know.

797
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,359
Speaker 2: I just opened there was his foot. I remember being

798
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 2: a little started initially that's that's a human foot. And

799
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 2: there's a pair of jeans there, I think because I

800
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 2: just thought somebod had been shoved in head first and

801
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 2: there was just going to be this one body in there.

802
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 2: And then as you move around to the others, there

803
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:42,919
Speaker 2: were bits of garbage bag and our colored garbage bags

804
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 2: and things because we find out later they've been exhumed

805
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 2: from other graves and things. Some of them put in

806
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:49,879
Speaker 2: these barrels getting ready presumably to dump out at sea,

807
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 2: because in the managers office there were six bags of

808
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 2: concrete and six barrels, and they'd had surveillance and telephone

809
00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 2: interceptso heard one of them was talking about I think

810
00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 2: I think I might have found a boat we can use.

811
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,760
Speaker 2: And they've been followed to the boat ramp at Port Wakefield,

812
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,879
Speaker 2: and that Port Wakefield boat ramp is sort of right

813
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,839
Speaker 2: on the edge of the military training and no goes

814
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 2: on for boats because it's the military firing area and

815
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 2: the top end of the gulf, and you can go

816
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 2: and fish down the other side. But if you leave

817
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 2: the boat ramp to turn right, you were going into

818
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 2: restricted waters. But of course if you were going to

819
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 2: dump some bodies, that will probably be ideal. If you've

820
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 2: got some barrels you drive into restricted waters, You're not

821
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 2: only to get caught up in a net. If they're

822
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 2: going to get blown up, it'll be long time. So

823
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 2: I think that was there longer term.

824
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 1: The magnitude of the discovery. I think from every working

825
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 1: detective crime scene officer, you're always looking for this big

826
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 1: case that everything that I've done has gone before. This

827
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 1: is the biggest case I've ever been on. Six bodies,

828
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:57,360
Speaker 1: one barrel after the other. Opening six bodies on the

829
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 1: scale of things in Australia's huge.

830
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, certainly was. Of course, when they got into

831
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 2: the mortuary they turned out eight bodies in there, they

832
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,279
Speaker 2: dismembered there was eight bodies in those six barrels, and

833
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 2: then they linked them all to the other, the other

834
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:11,760
Speaker 2: six victims.

835
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 1: Whatever. Okay, so Clinton, what Clinton.

836
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 2: Rece He was the one in the paddock and when

837
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,399
Speaker 2: he killed well, Clinton was killed in nineteen ninety two,

838
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 2: I believe, But we found him in nineteen ninety four

839
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,720
Speaker 2: in a shallow grave at lower Light, So a sheep

840
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,760
Speaker 2: farmer had found a skull on the sheep had unearthed

841
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,320
Speaker 2: a skull, and when we got there and found the

842
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 2: rest of the grave and then we exhumed that. He

843
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:36,320
Speaker 2: was the very first Snowtown.

844
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 1: So that was linked to the Yeah, but we.

845
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 2: Didn't know at the time. We never identified that person.

846
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:43,360
Speaker 2: It was a skeletal remains that were just in a

847
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 2: shallow grave and a sheep paddock at Port Wakefield on

848
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 2: the way to Port Wakefield lower Light, and it turned

849
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 2: out to be Clinton re Ice years later. But back then,

850
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 2: if we'd identified it as Clinton re Ice, Snowtime may

851
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 2: not have happened, because the inquiries would have started, as

852
00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 2: you know, you would have started with him and his

853
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:01,879
Speaker 2: friends is a sois and we may have at least

854
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 2: we would have been stirring a pot a lot earlier

855
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 2: than they were after Snowtown.

856
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,399
Speaker 1: How long had the bodies been in the barrel.

857
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 2: It varied. David Johnson was the most recent one. He

858
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 2: went in the not I think the night before, within

859
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 2: within a couple of days before he was killed, that

860
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 2: he was lured. He was the only one killed at Snowtown,

861
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:20,760
Speaker 2: which is the other thing. Most of them were killed

862
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 2: elsewhere and their bodies just turned up at Snowtown because

863
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 2: that was convenient, I think to access the boat, which

864
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 2: was the next step was to probably dumb on the sea.

865
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 2: Some of them had been killed like years before this

866
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 2: disband well, I think was the first one, but I

867
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 2: think we've since linked more, possibly even before Clinton d

868
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 2: res Ice. We did a fellow who was found hung

869
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 2: or hanging from trees in forest North Adelaide. He was

870
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 2: one of the victims as well. It was when that

871
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 2: was a staged staged hanging wasn't suicide at all, but

872
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 2: they had killed him or just hung him, made him

873
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 2: hang himself for something. It's a bizarre sick thing.

874
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 1: So the things is so macart and bringing all the

875
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 1: bodies together too that I'm trying to say that like

876
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 1: you deal with killers and get rid of the body,

877
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 1: get rid of the body, but it's almost like collecting.

878
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think they were. I think they thought

879
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 2: we've got so many. The bodies were literally starting to

880
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 2: pile up. They buried some under a like under a

881
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:22,759
Speaker 2: rain what I think at Susy North where they used

882
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:24,240
Speaker 2: to live and wanted them to live there for a while.

883
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:26,319
Speaker 2: So that was an actually vation that took place. They

884
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 2: got a body there and then I think they went

885
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 2: back and had to dig again, dig deeper to get

886
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:36,279
Speaker 2: another two bodies from that. So that was what the

887
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 2: police did. That was that was the additional ones to

888
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 2: the ones we had at the eight we had at

889
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 2: the Bank Gordon.

890
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: Just jumping in here, I think there was John Bunting,

891
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:49,239
Speaker 1: Robert Wagner, James Flasskiss, I think I'm pronouncing that right,

892
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 1: and Mark Hayden who convicted in relation to those crimes.

893
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 1: And I think Mark Hayden is actually out on parole now.

894
00:40:56,360 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 1: And according to my records here Bunting and Robert Wagner

895
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 1: were convicted of eleven and ten murders respectively, both given

896
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 1: life sentences. And from the personal point of view, you've

897
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 1: worked till two o'clock, did you go home that night

898
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 1: or did you sleep?

899
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 2: I went. I went home because I was only like

900
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 2: an hour away, so I went. I went home and

901
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 2: I remember stripping off to my Andy's outside the back door.

902
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 2: I wasn't going in the house because by the time

903
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 2: I'd been in the bank so long I knew I

904
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 2: was reeking of the smell of you just rotting death,

905
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 2: because the text was saying, do you mind if I

906
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:33,880
Speaker 2: stand this side of you because the breeze is blowing

907
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 2: you stink? I said, okay, So I dropped on my

908
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 2: clothes off out on the back porch and went in,

909
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 2: had to shower, and went to bed and was up again,

910
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 2: I think seven o'clock following morning.

911
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 1: Back there, you've married your family at the time, did

912
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:47,760
Speaker 1: you say what you'd.

913
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 2: They were still all asleep. We didn't have that conversation

914
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 2: that day. How was your day?

915
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 1: You know, you'd never believe it.

916
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 2: I think I must. I probably have sent a text

917
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 2: message or something and going, oh this is this got

918
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 2: bigger than Ben hurts. There's several it's a murder or

919
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 2: something now. But yeah, I didn't communicate exactly what I

920
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 2: was doing at that stage, because you know, it's head

921
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:10,359
Speaker 2: down but up you just working away, trying to get

922
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:12,879
Speaker 2: stuff done as quickly as possible and hoping the media

923
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:14,720
Speaker 2: don't find out, because when I've got back in the morning,

924
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 2: the news is now broken that you know they arrested

925
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,839
Speaker 2: these blokes early in the morning, right, because they got

926
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 2: the surveillance teams onto them and they I don't know

927
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 2: whether they must have had a tip off for but

928
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 2: they caught some of them dumping some clothes and some

929
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 2: possessions were dumped in industrial skips like in the back

930
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 2: of the shopping and places. They were followed and watched

931
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 2: seen to do that, So they must have had a

932
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 2: bit of an inkling somehow or other. But then it

933
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 2: broke and then we had like world media were there.

934
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 2: I've never seen this huge, livid line up across the

935
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:44,399
Speaker 2: road from the bank.

936
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 1: So you went back to the next day.

937
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,360
Speaker 2: They went back next day to continued finishing. Yeah, because

938
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 2: there was garbage bags of stuff inside the vault, like

939
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:53,959
Speaker 2: big garbage bags full of stuff, and there was things

940
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 2: like you know, and the sex toys and other bits

941
00:42:57,120 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 2: and pieces that.

942
00:42:57,920 --> 00:42:59,879
Speaker 1: The magnitude of the crime.

943
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 2: It was huge. We just covered the floor. The floor

944
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 2: of the bank was covered in all these you know,

945
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 2: these items that were inside being documented. The stuff they

946
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 2: had a lot, it was the possession for all these

947
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 2: all these bodies and the victims, sex toys, yeah, stuff

948
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:13,319
Speaker 2: they tortured them with. There was a thing called a

949
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 2: variac which was a very large two forty vault sort

950
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:21,359
Speaker 2: of variable power supply just had a great big sort

951
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 2: of button almost like the tumbler from the vault almost.

952
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 2: That was also in the bank manager's office, and we've

953
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 2: we now know that was used on one of them.

954
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 2: He could they would look up the well. They had

955
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 2: an extension cord that they'd cut the end off, and

956
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 2: they had bulldog clips, like big electoral bulldog clips on

957
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 2: the wires on one end, so they could plug this

958
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 2: into the variac and they could put these on your testigles,

959
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 2: on your nipples and then just dial up the power

960
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 2: and torture people on that. Some of them had burn

961
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:48,279
Speaker 2: marks on them. I think Roger Bard will talk about

962
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:50,439
Speaker 2: the the burn marks and stuff that some of them had.

963
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 1: Its pure, wasn't it?

964
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 2: Absolutely? And it was all to get there social hugy

965
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:56,800
Speaker 2: money in the end.

966
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, pure with dumb dumb, but clearly it's they were

967
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:07,280
Speaker 1: getting something more than just the security to commit crimes

968
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 1: like that in the in the place, was there an

969
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 1: eeriness about the place, and I know, you know where

970
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 1: cops we don't say, I know it was it was creepy,

971
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:19,239
Speaker 1: But was there something if someone's been tortured. I've been

972
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:23,240
Speaker 1: to places where people have been tortured. You get a sense,

973
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 1: did you.

974
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 2: I think one of the things and it's one of

975
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:29,320
Speaker 2: the things that has really affected the lady I was

976
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 2: working with that day, being so new in the in

977
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,359
Speaker 2: the friensic world at that point in particular, we sat

978
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 2: there on the floor and realized the carpet was damp,

979
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 2: and we tested, so we've we sat on the floor

980
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:41,959
Speaker 2: and then later find out that that was the reason

981
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 2: it was damp was because they have hosed down that

982
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 2: floor after killing David Johnson the night before. It was

983
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 2: the night before. We just didn't know and and we

984
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 2: think that's and that leaves a weird feeling in you.

985
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 2: You think, I'm sitting on the floor exactly where this

986
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 2: person was probably lying at one point before they put

987
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:03,239
Speaker 2: him into a barrel. It's it's my car. It's just it.

988
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 2: It's really hard to describe, but you talk about eeringus,

989
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:08,640
Speaker 2: there's still an eeriness to the bank. I went back

990
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 2: last year, first time I've been back into that bank

991
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,279
Speaker 2: in twenty six years, and I could still like it

992
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:18,479
Speaker 2: was yesterday, still visualize everything that the counters. It's changed

993
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 2: a bit inside a lot of the counters and stuff

994
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,879
Speaker 2: have gone, but the vaults still there and yeah, it's

995
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 2: still it was bizarre thought, Wow, this is It's been

996
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 2: a long time, but you can still remember everything. I

997
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,239
Speaker 2: like it was yesterday. It just ye sticks with.

998
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 1: You, sticks with you, and I suppose that when it

999
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 1: sticks that long, it can hang there with you and

1000
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 1: you don't realize the damage. I think even when we

1001
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 1: had Roger by Art who did the post more than

1002
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:45,319
Speaker 1: on the body for days, Yeah, he said that it

1003
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:47,480
Speaker 1: stuck with him. He's seen a lot of a lot

1004
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 1: of bad things. And yeah, it's funny how you carry it. Amazing,

1005
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:56,279
Speaker 1: amazing story. I think in everyone's career, you're looking for

1006
00:45:56,320 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 1: that job that beats all other jobs. Some people might

1007
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:03,359
Speaker 1: be listening to us thinking that's strange, but when you're

1008
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:06,399
Speaker 1: working in that field, these are the type of things

1009
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 1: you prepare for and sometimes it just happens. And yeah, yeah,

1010
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:10,799
Speaker 1: it's true.

1011
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 2: It's what you train for. You you train for major

1012
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 2: crime and the worst. But you don't expect, I think ever,

1013
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,359
Speaker 2: that you're going to get something like that. Yeah, six

1014
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 2: or seven bodies in one go, you think it's just crazy.

1015
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 2: Then to find it was eight in there as well.

1016
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:26,719
Speaker 2: But it's such a long process afterwards, because not only

1017
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 2: was there the scene at Snowtown, and once that was done,

1018
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 2: I was able to go back to my finished off

1019
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:34,239
Speaker 2: a couple more shifts, and I think I'd finished up

1020
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:36,759
Speaker 2: and was on the way to Queensland, but the rest

1021
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:39,359
Speaker 2: of the team from Adelaide and they'd come up. They

1022
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 2: were then going on for weeks later, months later, going

1023
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 2: to all these other scenes and digging up bodies and

1024
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:49,400
Speaker 2: photographing pits in garages and things where bodies had been

1025
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 2: held for a short time, all the places these people

1026
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,440
Speaker 2: have lived or their associates had lived and things. And

1027
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 2: that was all down to the one lad that the

1028
00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:01,479
Speaker 2: young lad who is about to come for Paro this year.

1029
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:04,400
Speaker 1: I think I saw you speaking in the media about

1030
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:05,399
Speaker 1: about that.

1031
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, they asked me, I didn't know what's happening, so

1032
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 2: just asked me for a quick, quick little grab on that.

1033
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:13,920
Speaker 2: What my take on that was. But he was instrumentally

1034
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:15,800
Speaker 2: in solving a lot of them, linking a lot of

1035
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:17,920
Speaker 2: them together because he knew a lot about it, and

1036
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,360
Speaker 2: he generally thought that he was going to be a

1037
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,279
Speaker 2: victim and he probably would have been. Yeah, had it

1038
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:23,879
Speaker 2: gone long enough.

1039
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 1: Well, let's see, it sticks in everyone's psyche and you

1040
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:30,839
Speaker 1: must carry it with you to a degree. Did that

1041
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:33,600
Speaker 1: play any part? And I've spoken to you before and

1042
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 1: you're comfortable talking about it. You had a mental breakdown,

1043
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:39,760
Speaker 1: or that's how it's been described. I'll let you describe

1044
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:40,279
Speaker 1: it in more.

1045
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 2: Well, that's I kind of called a mental breakdown, falling

1046
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 2: out the tree, whatever it might be. Yeah, friendly, well

1047
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:53,880
Speaker 2: it's but yeah, it's a polite way of saying I

1048
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 2: dropped my bundle.

1049
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, what happened? What happened there? You comfortable talking about Yeah?

1050
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:00,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, because I think more people needed talk about

1051
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 2: this stuff, particularly police and first responders in general. I'm

1052
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 2: a big advocate now for people to not have to

1053
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,400
Speaker 2: go through this, you know, because in my case, it

1054
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:10,799
Speaker 2: does sneak up on you. You don't see it coming necessarily.

1055
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 2: But there were probably signs when I look back now

1056
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 2: that I should have probably had some morning signs, probably

1057
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 2: should have thought, no, I need to break you know,

1058
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:19,759
Speaker 2: But I didn't. So it was an afternoon shift. I'd

1059
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 2: started work at two, just a general office shift, went

1060
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 2: into the friendship office, and there were back in those

1061
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 2: in the day we had we had all their jobs

1062
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:30,239
Speaker 2: to print out on a four paper. You take the

1063
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:32,759
Speaker 2: job sheets, you put them on the clipboard, and off

1064
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 2: you go for the shift. You pick your area, go

1065
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:37,399
Speaker 2: and do your stuff. So there were jobs there. And

1066
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 2: if you ring someone up and they're not home or

1067
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:42,080
Speaker 2: they can't not available today, come and see me tomorrow.

1068
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:44,319
Speaker 2: You make notes on the job like that. And there

1069
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:46,400
Speaker 2: were several jobs in this tray that I had seen

1070
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:48,360
Speaker 2: that I had dealt with the previous day, and no

1071
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 2: one had got to them during the day, and I went, ah,

1072
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:54,320
Speaker 2: why didn't we get to these today? And one of

1073
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 2: the boys, completely innocently, just said, because we knew you

1074
00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:01,839
Speaker 2: knew you'd do it, Gordy, And I thought that was it.

1075
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:04,319
Speaker 2: That was all he said, because we knew you'd do it.

1076
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 2: He wouldn't. He didn't mean him in any man, anymo else,

1077
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 2: And he wasn't even it probably wasn't even true. It's

1078
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 2: just that they were busy. I suppose, I supposed, but

1079
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:14,239
Speaker 2: they didn't get done. And but when he said, because

1080
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:16,800
Speaker 2: we knew you'd do it, that was it. It just snapped.

1081
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:19,359
Speaker 2: I thought, I guess that's how I was feeling. I'm

1082
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 2: carrying the whole thing so I just yeah, I just

1083
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:24,799
Speaker 2: broke breake down tears. I had to leave the office.

1084
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 2: I went to the car. I sat there and cried

1085
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 2: in my car and the car this is nuts. And

1086
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:30,960
Speaker 2: now she drove myself home. I thought, I can't go

1087
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 2: to work with this. I couldn't stop crying. I didn't

1088
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 2: know and I didn't really know why. This is just

1089
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:38,360
Speaker 2: this is bizarre. So I've gone home and my wife's

1090
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:41,759
Speaker 2: then don't know. I just I can't stop crying. I've

1091
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 2: had I can't do this. So I've wrung the doctors

1092
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 2: and I said, well, I need to see a doctor,

1093
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 2: and my regular doctor wasn't available. And then I broke

1094
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 2: down in tears. I said, come on, come in. I said,

1095
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 2: I can't come in. I can't come I see this.

1096
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:56,440
Speaker 2: I can't stop crying. She went, I'll put you in

1097
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 2: a separate room. So they made allo answers for me.

1098
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 2: The I went straight down there. They put me in

1099
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:02,839
Speaker 2: this little side room and because I was just yeah,

1100
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 2: it was just kept crying for no reason. It's just bizarre.

1101
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:10,719
Speaker 1: Was that unusual for you? That like when you say

1102
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 1: you're crying, that's I'm looking at your face and it's

1103
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 1: like your shop.

1104
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 2: Exactly. I'm thinking, why can't I stop? Like it's just

1105
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 2: and yeah, it was not like I was thinking the

1106
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:24,400
Speaker 2: evil thoughts are and at that stage just just was

1107
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:27,279
Speaker 2: overcome by the emotion and it sort of I think

1108
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:30,439
Speaker 2: once I started, it was just easy to just kept going.

1109
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 2: It was like it was just all years of just

1110
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 2: tears just coming out. And I thought, and it was

1111
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 2: quite scary because I didn't actually know what it was.

1112
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 2: I thought, what has happened to me?

1113
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:41,880
Speaker 1: And it happened that quick.

1114
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 2: That quick, like just I was throwing a switch. Just

1115
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 2: the fact he said, because we knew you'd do it, Gordy,

1116
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 2: that was that was enough. Bang. That was the straw

1117
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:51,719
Speaker 2: that break the camel's back. And I thought, I think

1118
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:53,799
Speaker 2: I was also thinking this is this is the end

1119
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 2: of my career and that was heartbreaking, and so that

1120
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 2: was not helping my emotional state. And I think I've

1121
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 2: just lost the plot. I'm going to go, I'm going

1122
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 2: to be one of these do you bring wrecks? You know

1123
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:07,040
Speaker 2: it excess police now that you become I don't.

1124
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:08,880
Speaker 1: Say what year are we talking? What stage?

1125
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 2: And we're at two thousand and nine, I think it

1126
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:15,239
Speaker 2: was thereabouts. Yeah, two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine.

1127
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 1: So you thought that that was it.

1128
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 2: I thought this, this will be in my crew. I'm

1129
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:20,840
Speaker 2: done here. This is this is nuts because and that

1130
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 2: didn't help you know, it doesn't help your emotional statement anything. Well,

1131
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:26,439
Speaker 2: I don't know what do from here. So I saw

1132
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 2: the doctor and the doctor said to me, look, you

1133
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:30,239
Speaker 2: need to see a psychologist. You know the clearly wrong

1134
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:32,279
Speaker 2: with you. And I said, well, I've got access to

1135
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:35,520
Speaker 2: them through work. I knew that I had works would

1136
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:37,680
Speaker 2: supply some And he said, oh, money even to let

1137
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 2: you go from here, if you promise me you're going

1138
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 2: to do that, So I will. So then I went

1139
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:42,359
Speaker 2: back and by then I've had a phone call from

1140
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 2: my boss. He said, like, what's gone on? What happened?

1141
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:47,640
Speaker 2: Where are you? And I think I broke down with him,

1142
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 2: I said. So then he got the psychologist to call me,

1143
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 2: and I had chat to her that night and she said, look,

1144
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 2: you know what's going on. So then I went saw

1145
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 2: a psychologist and did some testing and stuff and they said, right,

1146
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:59,760
Speaker 2: well you've got postal and extress, you've got some depression

1147
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:05,319
Speaker 2: and you can need some work. Yeah, okay, So that

1148
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:08,760
Speaker 2: was me off for two or three days and remained

1149
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:11,719
Speaker 2: of the week maybe, And I thought, this is no good.

1150
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 2: And then I know I'd spoken one of my colleagues

1151
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:16,719
Speaker 2: had had similar issues before, and he'd gone to a

1152
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 2: psychologist who he really rated. He said, she's really, really good.

1153
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:23,319
Speaker 2: She does this hocus pocus fancy, weirly, weird shit she

1154
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:27,400
Speaker 2: does with like a hypnotism type thing with fingers, and

1155
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 2: that technique is called em DR. I can't tell her

1156
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 2: what it stands for now, something about eye movement, rapid

1157
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:35,759
Speaker 2: decnsitization or something. But he said it was. He was

1158
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 2: very seapical, and he said, but he reckoned. He rated it,

1159
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:43,440
Speaker 2: he quoted. So I made an effort to contact this woman,

1160
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:46,479
Speaker 2: the same woman, and I went and had the point

1161
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 2: with her, and she had a chatted with me about

1162
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:50,600
Speaker 2: different bits and pieces, and then she started doing some

1163
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:52,839
Speaker 2: treatments on me. I think I saw he probably two

1164
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 2: or three times before she did at em DR. And

1165
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:57,319
Speaker 2: I've now gone back to work. I haven't had a week.

1166
00:52:57,480 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 2: I'm not having a week off. The source wasn't me.

1167
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 2: I'm not having three or four weeks off. This is

1168
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 2: not going to be the end of my career. I

1169
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 2: didn't want that happen. So I made sure I could go.

1170
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 1: Back to work because there's an embarrassment attacked.

1171
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:09,880
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's a shame.

1172
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:11,920
Speaker 1: And I think I've seen that with a lot of

1173
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 1: police that you're putting your hand up and police aren't

1174
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 1: meant to break down.

1175
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:18,600
Speaker 2: Line now, that's right, and.

1176
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:20,000
Speaker 1: Coming back and facing your colleagues again and.

1177
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:21,799
Speaker 2: They're on a shiels around you.

1178
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, Yeah.

1179
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:26,279
Speaker 2: The guy that said, I really I should make it's

1180
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:30,240
Speaker 2: not your fault. It's fine. Usually having to say it,

1181
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:31,799
Speaker 2: he could have. Anyone else would have said it the

1182
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:33,719
Speaker 2: same sort of thing. It's just how it was. But yeah,

1183
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:36,840
Speaker 2: so they're a bit nervous about you. But to the

1184
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:39,120
Speaker 2: credit of my boss at the time, he allowed me

1185
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:40,799
Speaker 2: come back. I said, I'll be all right. Yeah, I

1186
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 2: just need to perhaps get back on the horse, as

1187
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:46,480
Speaker 2: they say. So I was still having this treat with

1188
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:48,440
Speaker 2: her and then eventually had this EMDR and stuff, and

1189
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:51,360
Speaker 2: then I had two or three says of the E

1190
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:53,520
Speaker 2: M D R and I reckon. That's that's what's helped

1191
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:55,680
Speaker 2: me get back on the straight and narrow. Got me

1192
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:58,239
Speaker 2: back to work very quickly, to the point where she

1193
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:02,000
Speaker 2: now I believe is where she's one of the preferred

1194
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:05,719
Speaker 2: people that the news advised police send there. Yeah, people too,

1195
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:08,600
Speaker 2: certainly Northern Rivers because she's in the Gold Coast, so

1196
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 2: the Northern Rivers police I think gets sent to her

1197
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:13,440
Speaker 2: if they have psych issues as well, because this emd

1198
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 2: R treatment appears to be working quite well.

1199
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:19,400
Speaker 1: Certain for me, we've had police on that talk about

1200
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:24,439
Speaker 1: the where they've taken it further, where they've actually left

1201
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:27,320
Speaker 1: there left the police after the breakdown, not this similar

1202
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:29,600
Speaker 1: to the way you describe with the overcoming of the

1203
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 1: emotions and everything else that goes with it. But I

1204
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:38,200
Speaker 1: had one that are very much respected, and he said

1205
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:40,400
Speaker 1: that the advice he got when he was getting treatment

1206
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:42,920
Speaker 1: after he's left the police was if I got this

1207
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:45,319
Speaker 1: during the course of the police I still could have

1208
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:48,720
Speaker 1: had my career. You're a classic. And he was saying

1209
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:51,880
Speaker 1: strongly and advising police that you know, if you're feeling it,

1210
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:54,480
Speaker 1: don't if there's a red flag or an indicator, get

1211
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 1: the dress with gether the dressed and your testimony to

1212
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 1: the fact that that's what you did. And you went

1213
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 1: on for how much telerad what to do?

1214
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:09,440
Speaker 2: Then another twelve thirty years, Yeah, yeah, until I was sixty,

1215
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 2: so yeah, until I'd still be going now if I could.

1216
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:14,560
Speaker 2: But that's the rules of queens and I said no,

1217
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 2: so absolutely, I'm a big supporter of that attitude. If

1218
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:20,680
Speaker 2: you think you're having some dramas, or even if you

1219
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:22,920
Speaker 2: don't think you' having some dramas, nothing wrong with this

1220
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:25,640
Speaker 2: psychological testing, go and have it done. I mean the

1221
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:29,200
Speaker 2: forensic people in Queensland, and to the credit of the QPS,

1222
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:32,960
Speaker 2: they recognize that they're forensic people and the lot of

1223
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 2: the Juvenile Aid people that work with the juvenile crime

1224
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:38,560
Speaker 2: and some of the argos people that do the child

1225
00:55:38,680 --> 00:55:41,160
Speaker 2: you know, traffic and no sorts of things, and we

1226
00:55:41,239 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 2: are the high risk groups. So they have a voluntary

1227
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:45,680
Speaker 2: system where you can do an annual psych test and

1228
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:49,200
Speaker 2: I've been doing that for years and that's just about

1229
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:53,400
Speaker 2: really having conversation with the psychologists and saying your results

1230
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:55,200
Speaker 2: are a bit different to last year. Are you sure

1231
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 2: things are okay? Do you want to have a chat

1232
00:55:56,680 --> 00:55:59,680
Speaker 2: or anything? And lots of people are still fearful of that.

1233
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:01,759
Speaker 2: Don't be fearful. I used to take the mick out

1234
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 2: of it. We used to watch as kids. You'd see

1235
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:07,520
Speaker 2: these American TV shows they were having therapy. You Americans

1236
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:10,480
Speaker 2: are having therapy, their dogs having therapy, their cats having therapy.

1237
00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:14,719
Speaker 2: Yeah and you laugh. Ye, yeah, but I actually I

1238
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:16,120
Speaker 2: think they were onto something.

1239
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:18,799
Speaker 1: So they because I know I knew South Wales at

1240
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:22,200
Speaker 1: least when I left working homicide. We have to see

1241
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:24,520
Speaker 1: a psychologists every twelve months or six months and it

1242
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:27,279
Speaker 1: was compulsory. It wasn't a test. It was just sit

1243
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 1: down here you're going blah blah blah. You're saying in

1244
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:32,880
Speaker 1: Queensland that they give you the option. You can also

1245
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:34,800
Speaker 1: volunteer for a test so they can do it. You

1246
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:36,520
Speaker 1: can doubt not to do it but didn't do it,

1247
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:39,440
Speaker 1: or they just okay. But the test is not just

1248
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:41,320
Speaker 1: sitting down, it's answering questions.

1249
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:43,760
Speaker 2: It's just a written test. You know when you're at parties,

1250
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:46,799
Speaker 2: and it's always to standard sort of psychological testing and

1251
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:49,400
Speaker 2: then they compare your results. They'll be named for them

1252
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:49,880
Speaker 2: if there's.

1253
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:51,759
Speaker 1: A psychologists the metric type.

1254
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:54,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, that type of thing. And when you're at parties,

1255
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:55,800
Speaker 2: you know, do you sit in the corner, do you

1256
00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:58,080
Speaker 2: do you're a going and going? Do you find you're

1257
00:56:58,120 --> 00:56:59,680
Speaker 2: sitting in a room cannying the tolls on the wall

1258
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:01,440
Speaker 2: and stuff like that, those sorts of questions.

1259
00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:05,000
Speaker 1: Do you get excited when you see flames? Do you

1260
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:08,960
Speaker 1: feel overriding? Do you go kill someone? It terms on

1261
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:11,040
Speaker 1: the day the first time? And this I suppose the

1262
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:12,920
Speaker 1: culture of the police. I remember the first time they

1263
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:15,520
Speaker 1: sat us all down in homicide to do that, and

1264
00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:18,400
Speaker 1: they were doing the right thing. And criticize police if

1265
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:20,320
Speaker 1: I have to, but they're doing the right thing. You've

1266
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:24,040
Speaker 1: got to do these tests and we're sitting there and go, yeah,

1267
00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:25,880
Speaker 1: there'd be a question like that, Hey what did you

1268
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:28,240
Speaker 1: put for get excited about fire? And yeah, we're treating

1269
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:32,360
Speaker 1: as a but yeah, I think people are speaking out

1270
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 1: about it and other people I've referred to that we

1271
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 1: should treat it.

1272
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:39,320
Speaker 2: Absolutely we should. And I am living proof that if

1273
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:41,520
Speaker 2: you have your little breakdown, if you fall out the tree,

1274
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:43,560
Speaker 2: you do not hands to end your career if you

1275
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:46,440
Speaker 2: don't want to. Yeah, I mean some people get obviously

1276
00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:48,480
Speaker 2: get worse than I. I probably had it. Maybe I had

1277
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:49,800
Speaker 2: it in a mild way, but if I got in

1278
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:51,760
Speaker 2: a mild way, I really do feel first people who

1279
00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:54,360
Speaker 2: get it badly. Of course. The last I was the

1280
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:56,480
Speaker 2: lady I was working with for snowtowns. He's never come

1281
00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:59,800
Speaker 2: back to work. It's broken. And that was disappointing because

1282
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:02,160
Speaker 2: I adelaide and I said, keep an eye on her

1283
00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:04,480
Speaker 2: because she's you know, it's been a bit much for

1284
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:07,240
Speaker 2: her the last couple of days. So what they do

1285
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:11,080
Speaker 2: They center on all the other follow up scenes as well. So, yeah,

1286
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:13,560
Speaker 2: but that's a different era, you know, that's a lot

1287
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:15,640
Speaker 2: a lot of years ago. We're talking a lot a

1288
00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:18,280
Speaker 2: lot of change in policing in general in that sense,

1289
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:20,520
Speaker 2: and their attitude to mental health and those sorts of and.

1290
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:23,360
Speaker 1: I think that's the aim because people, you know, you

1291
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:25,320
Speaker 1: would hope people want to get back to work, and.

1292
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:27,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I don't think most people want to be

1293
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 2: out of the police, certainly not still, you know, being

1294
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:33,920
Speaker 2: completely messed up. But you don't have to be and

1295
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:36,680
Speaker 2: don't be afraid to speak up most police services. It

1296
00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:38,600
Speaker 2: doesn't have to enj your career. I went back to

1297
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:40,800
Speaker 2: the same job I was doing, in the same office,

1298
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:43,840
Speaker 2: with the same people around me. Nobody transferred me, nobody

1299
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:45,920
Speaker 2: said no, you can't work, and I went on for

1300
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:46,400
Speaker 2: another thing.

1301
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:51,479
Speaker 1: They accepted you and didn't look at this freak that start.

1302
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 2: Don't go here here well, they don't actually saw me crying.

1303
00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:56,840
Speaker 2: I left probably as the tears were flying. I can't

1304
00:58:56,840 --> 00:58:58,640
Speaker 2: stop this, I've got to go. I just walked out

1305
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:01,320
Speaker 2: to the car puck. But even if I had, it

1306
00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:03,640
Speaker 2: wouldn't have bothered me. You know, it wouldn't bother me

1307
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:06,439
Speaker 2: now because I'm quite happy to say if you feel

1308
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:09,960
Speaker 2: like having a cry, your bloody well should. Sometimes even blokes,

1309
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:12,440
Speaker 2: you know, this attitude about you know, men don't cry.

1310
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:15,800
Speaker 2: That's what's led to this. There's dangerous situation where you've

1311
00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:19,560
Speaker 2: got men who are now often they'll suicide rather than

1312
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:20,960
Speaker 2: go and say, hey, I'm not traveling that.

1313
00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:23,160
Speaker 1: Well, put your hand up.

1314
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:25,480
Speaker 2: You know, I don't like this. I don't feel comfortable

1315
00:59:26,080 --> 00:59:27,000
Speaker 2: parting long with that.

1316
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:29,600
Speaker 1: We're talking about it now, So continue on that part

1317
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:33,000
Speaker 1: of the stuff that you're doing now, helping first responders

1318
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:36,360
Speaker 1: and families and is it I'm just looking for it for.

1319
00:59:36,720 --> 00:59:40,320
Speaker 2: Fortumn fortune and tell us about that. What'sum Fortum room

1320
00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:42,560
Speaker 2: not for profit that was created? I'm so how many

1321
00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:45,640
Speaker 2: years ago now they were fairly new. I think I've

1322
00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:48,360
Speaker 2: been in I think they have formed about twenty twenty

1323
00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:53,640
Speaker 2: twenty two. Maybe they came to Queens and maybe in

1324
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:57,520
Speaker 2: twenty two, but they because I was being forced out

1325
00:59:57,640 --> 01:00:01,480
Speaker 2: at sixty because of the rule I had. I had

1326
01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:03,520
Speaker 2: no plans to retire and put my feet up. I

1327
01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:06,840
Speaker 2: could afford to because you do get access to superinneration,

1328
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:08,360
Speaker 2: but I can't get age, pension or any of those

1329
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:12,880
Speaker 2: benefits im sixty seven, like most Australians. So I'm being

1330
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:15,680
Speaker 2: forced out of a job I've loved for years. It's

1331
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:18,120
Speaker 2: pretty much all I've known for thirty thirty odd years

1332
01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:20,880
Speaker 2: of my life, thirty six and a half and there's

1333
01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:24,440
Speaker 2: no support from the community and police. Nothing, no resume,

1334
01:00:24,600 --> 01:00:27,080
Speaker 2: riding skills workshops and nothing. I think I'm going to

1335
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:29,080
Speaker 2: put a resume together. I've never had the rite resume

1336
01:00:29,120 --> 01:00:31,280
Speaker 2: in my life. Just the application of the police was

1337
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:35,080
Speaker 2: all I did. So Fortum have what they call a

1338
01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:39,480
Speaker 2: transition program. So they are targeting police and what first responders,

1339
01:00:39,560 --> 01:00:43,080
Speaker 2: not just police, any first responders who are transitioning from

1340
01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:46,800
Speaker 2: for whatever reason, who are transitioning from their career into another,

1341
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 2: into another field. So that's when I got on board

1342
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:52,720
Speaker 2: with them. I went to it. They come into the

1343
01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:55,200
Speaker 2: presentation one of our training days and I thought, I

1344
01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:57,680
Speaker 2: need I need your card, So I had some great

1345
01:00:57,720 --> 01:01:01,120
Speaker 2: support from them. I had a great reason may put together.

1346
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:03,200
Speaker 2: In the end, they put me in touch with who

1347
01:01:03,520 --> 01:01:05,280
Speaker 2: turned out he was next police officer as well, but

1348
01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:07,440
Speaker 2: he was doing training and those sorts of things and

1349
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:10,120
Speaker 2: helping with resume riding. So I tell him what i'd done,

1350
01:01:10,360 --> 01:01:12,800
Speaker 2: knock up his resume. He sent to here me go, Yeah, critique,

1351
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:15,240
Speaker 2: don't like this, like going to school. So he sent

1352
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:16,560
Speaker 2: it back and forth a few times. But then the

1353
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:19,400
Speaker 2: end I resume that was was really really good. I

1354
01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:21,640
Speaker 2: was really proud of it. In fact, when I did

1355
01:01:21,680 --> 01:01:24,000
Speaker 2: send it off to Bunnings, they ran map said, your

1356
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:26,000
Speaker 2: resume is unbelievable. What the hell do you want to

1357
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:28,000
Speaker 2: work for us for? Oh wait, well, here's the thing.

1358
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:32,000
Speaker 2: I'm sick what most people can't believe they're not in

1359
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:34,840
Speaker 2: the police. Most people don't still don't understand in Queensland.

1360
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:37,240
Speaker 2: But you're fortuning your police out when because they turned

1361
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:38,240
Speaker 2: sixty for no other.

1362
01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:40,320
Speaker 1: Reason but crazy.

1363
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:43,080
Speaker 2: It goes back to the seventies when it started. Yeah,

1364
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:45,960
Speaker 2: and because sixty was a different, different thing back in

1365
01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:48,400
Speaker 2: the in the mid seventies, when you were sixty, sixty

1366
01:01:48,440 --> 01:01:49,280
Speaker 2: was a reasonably.

1367
01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:51,080
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, surely they're going to have to change.

1368
01:01:51,080 --> 01:01:54,560
Speaker 2: It changes got to it's it's going to change because

1369
01:01:54,560 --> 01:01:57,800
Speaker 2: of the fine benefit. It's part it's all linked with superannuations.

1370
01:01:57,880 --> 01:02:01,200
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's the issue. A couple of things there

1371
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:04,560
Speaker 1: on what you're talking about that the when police leave.

1372
01:02:05,800 --> 01:02:08,560
Speaker 1: I like what you like what you're saying, Like I

1373
01:02:08,600 --> 01:02:11,200
Speaker 1: and I read something about the work they're doing and

1374
01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:13,800
Speaker 1: some of the comments that you've made that you go

1375
01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:17,439
Speaker 1: through life identifying as a police officer. And I think

1376
01:02:17,480 --> 01:02:20,160
Speaker 1: there was some article I read or something about you

1377
01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:24,440
Speaker 1: that you're saying, well, everyone I knows that most people

1378
01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:27,680
Speaker 1: I know know me as a police officer except for

1379
01:02:27,760 --> 01:02:29,000
Speaker 1: your brother and sister or.

1380
01:02:29,080 --> 01:02:32,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, was just my kids, my wife. Every I think

1381
01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:35,600
Speaker 2: is I've always been Gordy for forensics. Yeah, that is

1382
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:36,080
Speaker 2: who I am.

1383
01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:38,960
Speaker 1: That's your identity. And when that's taken away, so I

1384
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:41,439
Speaker 1: think that's you know, it's not about just looking after

1385
01:02:41,440 --> 01:02:44,000
Speaker 1: police when they're in there, it's looking after police when

1386
01:02:44,040 --> 01:02:47,880
Speaker 1: they leave. And that you're talking about the CV. My career,

1387
01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:50,840
Speaker 1: as everyone knows, ended very suddenly, and I was a

1388
01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:53,160
Speaker 1: career cop. I wasn't going to do anything else and

1389
01:02:53,200 --> 01:02:56,560
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you're out on your own, and yeah,

1390
01:02:56,640 --> 01:02:58,960
Speaker 1: it was. It was a strange world and you'd lost

1391
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:02,000
Speaker 1: your tribe, so to speak. So I can see people

1392
01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:05,240
Speaker 1: doing it tough. I'd landed on my feet, fortunately, but

1393
01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:07,680
Speaker 1: I can see people doing tough that your whole world's

1394
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:08,400
Speaker 1: being cut.

1395
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:11,960
Speaker 2: Off just because you have a birthday in the case

1396
01:03:11,960 --> 01:03:14,040
Speaker 2: of some of these. So yeah, I think it's important

1397
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:16,960
Speaker 2: that we address that, and that's why I'm very, very

1398
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:22,680
Speaker 2: happy to be associate with Forutum. I'm actually the last

1399
01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:25,240
Speaker 2: year they ran a pilot program with people like myself

1400
01:03:25,240 --> 01:03:28,840
Speaker 2: who exited from their transition program to be mental volunteer

1401
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:31,400
Speaker 2: mentors for others that are going through it as well,

1402
01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:32,560
Speaker 2: so you can sort of help them the same way

1403
01:03:32,600 --> 01:03:36,080
Speaker 2: that I got the help. So excuse me. I'm planning

1404
01:03:36,080 --> 01:03:38,960
Speaker 2: when I get home, probably tonight or tomorrow, they're they're

1405
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:41,000
Speaker 2: formalizing that and they're going to start the new training course.

1406
01:03:41,040 --> 01:03:42,840
Speaker 2: So I planned my hand up for that because I'll

1407
01:03:42,840 --> 01:03:45,320
Speaker 2: try and give something back. Without them, I would be

1408
01:03:45,360 --> 01:03:48,960
Speaker 2: flanned out. I have some pathetic little resume, I mean,

1409
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:51,080
Speaker 2: because I was really looking to go and get some

1410
01:03:51,120 --> 01:03:54,040
Speaker 2: other jobs and I was looking at it. It's a

1411
01:03:54,040 --> 01:03:55,920
Speaker 2: great networking thing. You can go to some of the

1412
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:58,520
Speaker 2: seminars and stuff like that. I've spoken at some of

1413
01:03:58,520 --> 01:04:02,600
Speaker 2: their stuff, but they know they're just there and they

1414
01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:06,360
Speaker 2: have They've now introduced like family days and things. They

1415
01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:08,960
Speaker 2: have activities just to get families see you can take

1416
01:04:08,960 --> 01:04:11,280
Speaker 2: the family along and go and do paddle boarding us

1417
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:13,360
Speaker 2: and stand up paddle boarding stuff like that, just to

1418
01:04:13,440 --> 01:04:17,040
Speaker 2: try and I guess humanize the poor or first responder

1419
01:04:17,080 --> 01:04:19,240
Speaker 2: because we do tend to get Like I was, I

1420
01:04:19,800 --> 01:04:22,600
Speaker 2: had a thing. I was diagnosed with emotional numbing, which

1421
01:04:22,600 --> 01:04:25,640
Speaker 2: is I think something common probably homicide detection. To get it,

1422
01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:27,520
Speaker 2: where you go to work, you put up your little

1423
01:04:27,560 --> 01:04:31,160
Speaker 2: force field, little protective shield, and then it stays with

1424
01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:32,920
Speaker 2: you so long because you're dealing with all this horror

1425
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:35,160
Speaker 2: and horrible things that you've got this little sort of

1426
01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:38,560
Speaker 2: force field around you. But when you get home, you

1427
01:04:38,720 --> 01:04:41,320
Speaker 2: eventually lose the ability to drop that and you become

1428
01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:43,560
Speaker 2: emotionally numb at home as well, and that affects your

1429
01:04:43,560 --> 01:04:45,160
Speaker 2: relationship at home and things good.

1430
01:04:45,200 --> 01:04:48,320
Speaker 1: And I'm not going to admit to anything, well you should.

1431
01:04:48,840 --> 01:04:51,640
Speaker 1: I know exactly what you're exactly what you're traying, and

1432
01:04:51,680 --> 01:04:55,040
Speaker 1: so the drama that's work and you shut it down

1433
01:04:55,040 --> 01:04:57,680
Speaker 1: and then you go home and it doesn't fit with

1434
01:04:57,720 --> 01:05:00,880
Speaker 1: the rest of the world. You're emotional response to it and.

1435
01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:03,120
Speaker 2: You need to be aware of that, and I try

1436
01:05:03,160 --> 01:05:05,200
Speaker 2: and make people with that. Now, don't fall for that trap,

1437
01:05:05,240 --> 01:05:08,040
Speaker 2: because I believe you know, I'm on my second second

1438
01:05:08,040 --> 01:05:10,080
Speaker 2: marriage now and it's a very good marriage, but the

1439
01:05:10,120 --> 01:05:12,680
Speaker 2: first one fell apart because you know, I was probably

1440
01:05:12,680 --> 01:05:16,600
Speaker 2: emotionally in them. My wife found another man's company more

1441
01:05:16,600 --> 01:05:18,960
Speaker 2: appropriate than mine because I was working like a shift

1442
01:05:19,040 --> 01:05:22,480
Speaker 2: something and you miss stuff, yeah, and you know, as police,

1443
01:05:22,520 --> 01:05:24,160
Speaker 2: you know we all missed the kids' birthdays and bits

1444
01:05:24,160 --> 01:05:27,320
Speaker 2: and pieces and different things. So emotional numbing is a

1445
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:29,560
Speaker 2: big thing I think with first responders, and we're all

1446
01:05:29,720 --> 01:05:31,680
Speaker 2: prone to it. So I don't fall to the trap.

1447
01:05:31,720 --> 01:05:35,960
Speaker 1: I would like to see police like qualifications, and I

1448
01:05:36,040 --> 01:05:39,320
Speaker 1: talk about this a lot, the qualifications that if I'm

1449
01:05:39,320 --> 01:05:41,360
Speaker 1: in New South Wales police officer, I should be able

1450
01:05:41,360 --> 01:05:44,560
Speaker 1: to work in Queensland and South Australia, Western Australia, move around.

1451
01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:48,439
Speaker 1: And I'd also like career breaks in policing. I think

1452
01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:52,120
Speaker 1: that would be so beneficial and they would retain more

1453
01:05:52,160 --> 01:05:54,280
Speaker 1: police because I saw a lot of police go I'm

1454
01:05:54,320 --> 01:05:56,640
Speaker 1: sick of this job. I'm out of here, and they're

1455
01:05:56,640 --> 01:05:58,240
Speaker 1: trying for the rest of their life trying to get

1456
01:05:58,240 --> 01:06:00,680
Speaker 1: back into the police and they're regretting leaving. Yes, I

1457
01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:03,880
Speaker 1: took twelve months off during my time in police and

1458
01:06:03,880 --> 01:06:06,640
Speaker 1: it was the best thing I did. That totally refreshed me.

1459
01:06:06,920 --> 01:06:08,840
Speaker 1: I came back, I was itching to get back at

1460
01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:13,080
Speaker 1: work and jump back in. We should facilitate that in

1461
01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:17,040
Speaker 1: policing all the police forces across the country.

1462
01:06:17,120 --> 01:06:19,400
Speaker 2: I think Queensland have introduced that. I believe it existing

1463
01:06:19,480 --> 01:06:20,960
Speaker 2: Queensland and a few people have got up, but because

1464
01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:23,200
Speaker 2: at the moment, I think the biggest challenge is getting

1465
01:06:23,520 --> 01:06:26,680
Speaker 2: enough support from your bosses to spare you for that

1466
01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:28,640
Speaker 2: time because they can't get enough police as it is,

1467
01:06:29,200 --> 01:06:31,800
Speaker 2: so they're going to go well. I think I'm not

1468
01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:33,720
Speaker 2: sure how it's running in Queensland now, but I know

1469
01:06:33,840 --> 01:06:36,720
Speaker 2: career breaks were pretty much a privilege more so than

1470
01:06:36,720 --> 01:06:37,080
Speaker 2: it right.

1471
01:06:37,120 --> 01:06:40,680
Speaker 1: Well, that's took I took twelve months leave without pay,

1472
01:06:40,840 --> 01:06:44,680
Speaker 1: but I had to give up my position in unsolved homicide.

1473
01:06:44,680 --> 01:06:47,560
Speaker 1: They've been striving to get for a long time, and

1474
01:06:48,160 --> 01:06:50,479
Speaker 1: too if I wanted the twelve months leave, I lost

1475
01:06:50,520 --> 01:06:52,800
Speaker 1: that position that came back in. It was a lottery

1476
01:06:52,840 --> 01:06:56,360
Speaker 1: that even got back into homicide. I managed to find

1477
01:06:56,360 --> 01:06:59,000
Speaker 1: my way in, but that was a risk. But you'd

1478
01:06:59,040 --> 01:07:02,080
Speaker 1: like to be able to see crime scene, overworked, underpaid,

1479
01:07:02,240 --> 01:07:04,760
Speaker 1: all that, you'd like this. I just need a break

1480
01:07:04,800 --> 01:07:07,600
Speaker 1: for twelve twelve months. I'll attend the court matters if

1481
01:07:07,600 --> 01:07:09,960
Speaker 1: you need me at the court twelve months. I'm going

1482
01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:13,480
Speaker 1: to go working bunnies and just have a break, have

1483
01:07:13,520 --> 01:07:15,439
Speaker 1: a normal life and then then come back.

1484
01:07:15,520 --> 01:07:17,200
Speaker 2: And some of them go off and I think they

1485
01:07:17,320 --> 01:07:19,560
Speaker 2: go and train, they go to now they spend their

1486
01:07:19,560 --> 01:07:22,000
Speaker 2: time going to union whatever, getting qualifications for a different

1487
01:07:22,040 --> 01:07:23,680
Speaker 2: job if they want. And of course the police service

1488
01:07:23,720 --> 01:07:26,160
Speaker 2: are nervous about that. If you go outside, you don't

1489
01:07:26,160 --> 01:07:26,520
Speaker 2: come back.

1490
01:07:26,560 --> 01:07:28,560
Speaker 1: I don't know what that's about the culture of police.

1491
01:07:28,600 --> 01:07:29,840
Speaker 1: It's almost like you're either.

1492
01:07:29,760 --> 01:07:33,040
Speaker 2: With us or that's right. Yeah. Its it's strange, and

1493
01:07:33,080 --> 01:07:36,360
Speaker 2: it's it's not serving any police service or the police

1494
01:07:36,400 --> 01:07:39,320
Speaker 2: themselves any good really, because you're, like you said, you're

1495
01:07:39,320 --> 01:07:41,360
Speaker 2: forcing them to stay in a job that there may

1496
01:07:41,400 --> 01:07:43,720
Speaker 2: be questioning as it is, so then they're just going

1497
01:07:43,760 --> 01:07:46,040
Speaker 2: to leave. They end up or they end up broken

1498
01:07:46,040 --> 01:07:47,720
Speaker 2: and you know, having to pay them a massive amount

1499
01:07:47,720 --> 01:07:51,520
Speaker 2: of money in work cover compensations and things because they're broken.

1500
01:07:51,600 --> 01:07:53,320
Speaker 2: And then some of them are no good to anybody.

1501
01:07:53,400 --> 01:07:57,520
Speaker 1: And we joined as a vacation. That's that's your career path.

1502
01:07:57,720 --> 01:08:00,280
Speaker 1: You're going to stay there. That's not the generation these

1503
01:08:00,360 --> 01:08:02,400
Speaker 1: days don't look at this is the career I want

1504
01:08:02,440 --> 01:08:04,720
Speaker 1: to stay in for the rest of the life. So

1505
01:08:04,920 --> 01:08:07,360
Speaker 1: if you show them you can come in, you can leave,

1506
01:08:07,440 --> 01:08:09,760
Speaker 1: you can come back, you retain your you do a

1507
01:08:09,760 --> 01:08:12,400
Speaker 1: refresher course, you come back. And I know it's in

1508
01:08:12,480 --> 01:08:16,200
Speaker 1: part there, but this is the will of the the bosses,

1509
01:08:16,320 --> 01:08:18,600
Speaker 1: whether they know whether they're going to let you have

1510
01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:19,759
Speaker 1: that option.

1511
01:08:20,280 --> 01:08:22,840
Speaker 2: And I think it's important that you as an employee,

1512
01:08:23,080 --> 01:08:25,639
Speaker 2: you're a reasonable copper too. Yeah, if you just come

1513
01:08:25,640 --> 01:08:27,479
Speaker 2: in and think it's just a free ride, I mean,

1514
01:08:27,720 --> 01:08:29,200
Speaker 2: if you've got some runs on the board, then they're

1515
01:08:29,200 --> 01:08:30,920
Speaker 2: going to want want you to come back. But you know,

1516
01:08:31,240 --> 01:08:32,960
Speaker 2: there's a few coppers I've met over the years. You

1517
01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:35,760
Speaker 2: know they can't wait for them to leave. Let's just

1518
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:36,280
Speaker 2: get rid of it.

1519
01:08:36,760 --> 01:08:40,600
Speaker 1: When turning sixty, they're the ones that get yeah, you

1520
01:08:40,600 --> 01:08:41,559
Speaker 1: can get that transfer.

1521
01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:42,600
Speaker 2: Where do you want to go?

1522
01:08:42,680 --> 01:08:45,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've seen a lot of bad police get promoted

1523
01:08:45,280 --> 01:08:47,320
Speaker 1: and transferred out because everyone just wants to.

1524
01:08:47,280 --> 01:08:49,120
Speaker 2: Get rid of right and police will tell you they

1525
01:08:49,160 --> 01:08:51,040
Speaker 2: get promoted toys when you're.

1526
01:08:50,920 --> 01:08:54,519
Speaker 1: Signing the recommendation, I thoroughly recommend this person who you

1527
01:08:54,880 --> 01:08:57,400
Speaker 1: or she would be great, pass out on them. Oh bye,

1528
01:08:57,439 --> 01:08:58,800
Speaker 1: they're gone, They've been transferred, and.

1529
01:08:58,760 --> 01:09:00,200
Speaker 2: Three weeks later you get the phone call from their

1530
01:09:00,200 --> 01:09:02,720
Speaker 2: new boss going, what have you done to me? How

1531
01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:03,479
Speaker 2: dare you do that?

1532
01:09:04,000 --> 01:09:04,639
Speaker 1: You've done that?

1533
01:09:04,680 --> 01:09:06,880
Speaker 2: Don't you ever expecting from me anymore?

1534
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:11,360
Speaker 1: A couple of other things that I've been based where

1535
01:09:11,400 --> 01:09:14,680
Speaker 1: you were in Queensland and I know we spoke about it,

1536
01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:20,640
Speaker 1: but their very high profile in that captured captured the

1537
01:09:20,680 --> 01:09:24,479
Speaker 1: attention of people. Was the tragedy at dream World. You're

1538
01:09:24,520 --> 01:09:27,120
Speaker 1: at crime scene? Did you have any involvement in that?

1539
01:09:27,439 --> 01:09:29,360
Speaker 2: I was relaving his officer in charge of the day

1540
01:09:29,400 --> 01:09:32,400
Speaker 2: that happened. I remember sitting in the office, have a

1541
01:09:32,479 --> 01:09:35,080
Speaker 2: radio on next to the just on loan next next

1542
01:09:35,120 --> 01:09:37,559
Speaker 2: to me, and the thing and there's all this chatter's

1543
01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:39,320
Speaker 2: come on the radio. There's something that's happening, all this

1544
01:09:39,600 --> 01:09:42,680
Speaker 2: chatter about dream World and what's going on, and my

1545
01:09:42,920 --> 01:09:45,000
Speaker 2: acting is the guy I was relieving for was the

1546
01:09:45,120 --> 01:09:47,439
Speaker 2: acting inspector and I knew he'd been in Brisbane was

1547
01:09:47,520 --> 01:09:50,080
Speaker 2: driving back around about that time. So I remember ringing

1548
01:09:50,120 --> 01:09:52,280
Speaker 2: him saying, I'm not sure what it is, but I'm

1549
01:09:52,320 --> 01:09:55,760
Speaker 2: hearing stuff at dream World about multiple deaths. You might

1550
01:09:55,800 --> 01:09:58,360
Speaker 2: want to keep an here on the radio or even

1551
01:09:58,400 --> 01:10:00,639
Speaker 2: pop in. So he's gone into dream World and he's

1552
01:10:00,920 --> 01:10:02,760
Speaker 2: found what's happened. He's wrung me back and said like,

1553
01:10:02,800 --> 01:10:04,400
Speaker 2: this is what's happened. When need this when you deal

1554
01:10:04,439 --> 01:10:06,080
Speaker 2: with these people. So then I've gone out to people

1555
01:10:06,080 --> 01:10:08,720
Speaker 2: of the RIDA guys thisten up. That's what's happened. We've

1556
01:10:08,720 --> 01:10:11,280
Speaker 2: got to get some crews up here. And that went

1557
01:10:11,320 --> 01:10:12,920
Speaker 2: on frndically. I think we were there for about a

1558
01:10:12,920 --> 01:10:16,120
Speaker 2: week off and on because some of the Friensic people

1559
01:10:16,120 --> 01:10:20,400
Speaker 2: are also the disaster victim identification people part of that team,

1560
01:10:20,680 --> 01:10:22,800
Speaker 2: and they've been deployed to Balley in place like that

1561
01:10:22,840 --> 01:10:25,080
Speaker 2: for some of the bigger events. So we were there

1562
01:10:25,320 --> 01:10:27,360
Speaker 2: forensically for a long time with the friendsick crash people

1563
01:10:27,400 --> 01:10:29,600
Speaker 2: investment what happened. I remember looking at all the photographs

1564
01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:32,719
Speaker 2: because part of our role as forensicsist, you're peer reviewing

1565
01:10:32,840 --> 01:10:35,640
Speaker 2: each other's work, and you have to peer check the

1566
01:10:35,680 --> 01:10:37,519
Speaker 2: photos and things makes to their reasonab quality. So I

1567
01:10:37,520 --> 01:10:39,240
Speaker 2: remember looking at every single one of those photos those

1568
01:10:39,280 --> 01:10:42,280
Speaker 2: poor people, some of them were really badly smashed up.

1569
01:10:42,640 --> 01:10:44,960
Speaker 1: I think it touches on this all because a lot

1570
01:10:44,960 --> 01:10:47,000
Speaker 1: of us would have taken their kids there or gone

1571
01:10:47,000 --> 01:10:50,559
Speaker 1: there as kids and a fun place at place that

1572
01:10:50,880 --> 01:10:54,360
Speaker 1: go there to celebrate and enjoy, enjoy life. And what happened.

1573
01:10:54,400 --> 01:10:57,800
Speaker 1: The boat just the on the on the rails and

1574
01:10:57,800 --> 01:10:58,639
Speaker 1: flipped over. Yeah.

1575
01:10:58,640 --> 01:11:01,160
Speaker 2: I think the finding was that the water level had

1576
01:11:01,200 --> 01:11:03,120
Speaker 2: got a little bit low, lower than it should have been,

1577
01:11:03,520 --> 01:11:05,200
Speaker 2: and I think there was a broken switch. When it

1578
01:11:05,280 --> 01:11:07,920
Speaker 2: drops a certain level, it should cut things off. So

1579
01:11:07,960 --> 01:11:09,719
Speaker 2: it was a combination of things. That the water level

1580
01:11:09,760 --> 01:11:11,840
Speaker 2: was a bit low, which allowed the boat to sort

1581
01:11:11,840 --> 01:11:14,920
Speaker 2: of sit lower onto the little hooky thing, and it

1582
01:11:14,960 --> 01:11:17,640
Speaker 2: didn't clear properly, and the second boat came down the

1583
01:11:18,320 --> 01:11:20,880
Speaker 2: little thing and crashed into it, and instead of the

1584
01:11:20,880 --> 01:11:24,280
Speaker 2: first one then moving away and floating, the water was

1585
01:11:24,280 --> 01:11:25,760
Speaker 2: a bit low, so it was able to tip up

1586
01:11:25,800 --> 01:11:27,639
Speaker 2: and it just tipped the documents out into the water.

1587
01:11:27,680 --> 01:11:30,000
Speaker 2: So one went, a couple of went down into the

1588
01:11:30,040 --> 01:11:32,200
Speaker 2: water and were trapped down there. Another one went through

1589
01:11:32,200 --> 01:11:35,320
Speaker 2: the actual sort of conveyor belt mechanism things as well

1590
01:11:35,960 --> 01:11:38,400
Speaker 2: and trapped on And of course the poor young person

1591
01:11:38,439 --> 01:11:41,040
Speaker 2: that was on I think their first day on that ride,

1592
01:11:41,680 --> 01:11:44,360
Speaker 2: wasn't familiar with the emergency stopping buttons and stuff like that,

1593
01:11:44,400 --> 01:11:46,920
Speaker 2: so it was just complete combination of things.

1594
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:52,839
Speaker 1: They had had another one up there, the Seawell helicopter crashes.

1595
01:11:53,040 --> 01:11:54,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's happened since I leave.

1596
01:11:54,760 --> 01:11:55,679
Speaker 1: You guys get cool.

1597
01:11:56,439 --> 01:11:58,880
Speaker 2: Well, that's the funny thing is that happened after I'd

1598
01:11:58,920 --> 01:12:02,120
Speaker 2: left the police. But that was one that named my

1599
01:12:02,200 --> 01:12:05,439
Speaker 2: current job. That my colleagues I work with now went

1600
01:12:05,560 --> 01:12:07,200
Speaker 2: and collected all the bodies from that. So it was

1601
01:12:07,240 --> 01:12:10,840
Speaker 2: one of those interesting areas where they still get involved

1602
01:12:10,840 --> 01:12:12,600
Speaker 2: in those things. So even I've left the police, I

1603
01:12:12,640 --> 01:12:14,519
Speaker 2: still end up working a bit with the police now

1604
01:12:14,560 --> 01:12:15,120
Speaker 2: quite regularly.

1605
01:12:15,479 --> 01:12:19,720
Speaker 1: Well, well, in terms of your employment, now you you

1606
01:12:20,320 --> 01:12:20,960
Speaker 1: what are you doing?

1607
01:12:21,160 --> 01:12:23,080
Speaker 2: Well, I'm now a I'm now a funeral director.

1608
01:12:23,280 --> 01:12:28,000
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm sure there's a comment I can make to that.

1609
01:12:28,560 --> 01:12:30,840
Speaker 2: Okay, You've got to understand I was born a place

1610
01:12:30,880 --> 01:12:33,080
Speaker 2: called Graves End. What hope did I have?

1611
01:12:33,280 --> 01:12:34,880
Speaker 1: That was your destiny?

1612
01:12:35,240 --> 01:12:37,200
Speaker 2: From birth. I was born in a place called graves End,

1613
01:12:37,760 --> 01:12:39,920
Speaker 2: and yeah, so I was always going to end up

1614
01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:42,920
Speaker 2: doing something with envolving death. So yeah I was. I

1615
01:12:42,960 --> 01:12:46,080
Speaker 2: was at Bunnings. I finally work at Bunnings. And and

1616
01:12:46,120 --> 01:12:49,400
Speaker 2: then that mine now current big boss came, wrang me

1617
01:12:49,479 --> 01:12:51,759
Speaker 2: up on my previous boss, D give you a number.

1618
01:12:51,840 --> 01:12:53,559
Speaker 2: So he said, I need a hand, he said, this

1619
01:12:53,640 --> 01:12:56,200
Speaker 2: is what's happened. They were they were always the contract

1620
01:12:56,200 --> 01:12:58,400
Speaker 2: to government undertaker. So all of my bodies on the

1621
01:12:58,400 --> 01:13:01,000
Speaker 2: Gold Coast, the guys from this company that I work.

1622
01:13:00,920 --> 01:13:01,920
Speaker 1: For now, they're the ones.

1623
01:13:02,000 --> 01:13:03,960
Speaker 2: They are the ones that come with the police when

1624
01:13:03,960 --> 01:13:05,800
Speaker 2: I'm we're ready that we wring them up and they

1625
01:13:05,880 --> 01:13:07,599
Speaker 2: send their people out and when they take the bodies

1626
01:13:07,600 --> 01:13:09,439
Speaker 2: back to the mortuary for us, so they do there convancing.

1627
01:13:10,240 --> 01:13:12,559
Speaker 2: So I've got to know most of them quite well,

1628
01:13:12,600 --> 01:13:16,040
Speaker 2: even though four or five, but they were the same

1629
01:13:16,080 --> 01:13:18,960
Speaker 2: company I had. And then so when he rang me

1630
01:13:18,960 --> 01:13:21,240
Speaker 2: he said, we've got this renewed contract. He said, I've

1631
01:13:21,240 --> 01:13:23,800
Speaker 2: got the Gold Coaster gun. And so it's great, congratulations,

1632
01:13:24,080 --> 01:13:26,519
Speaker 2: he said, but as you do, he said, in case

1633
01:13:26,560 --> 01:13:27,720
Speaker 2: you don't get the one you want, you put in

1634
01:13:27,760 --> 01:13:29,760
Speaker 2: for others around it. So he put in for the

1635
01:13:29,760 --> 01:13:33,439
Speaker 2: scenic Rim Police District, the Logan Police District, Ipswich, and

1636
01:13:33,640 --> 01:13:35,880
Speaker 2: Morton Bay and a whole whole others and he got

1637
01:13:35,920 --> 01:13:39,679
Speaker 2: them all. That's what I said. So I said, you've

1638
01:13:39,560 --> 01:13:41,200
Speaker 2: been not more and two and he went, well, no,

1639
01:13:41,240 --> 01:13:42,519
Speaker 2: he said, I just need good people, he said, And

1640
01:13:42,520 --> 01:13:45,160
Speaker 2: I thought so. I originally started just doing part time

1641
01:13:45,200 --> 01:13:47,400
Speaker 2: work after to do after hours around my bunning shifts

1642
01:13:47,400 --> 01:13:49,320
Speaker 2: to help them with that. That lasted about a month

1643
01:13:49,360 --> 01:13:51,640
Speaker 2: and then one of their regular guys had left and

1644
01:13:51,680 --> 01:13:53,200
Speaker 2: then they called me in office one day. I thought

1645
01:13:53,200 --> 01:13:56,400
Speaker 2: I was gonna get sack, funny because I'd been on call.

1646
01:13:56,520 --> 01:14:00,200
Speaker 2: I remember going back and handing the keys in to

1647
01:14:00,240 --> 01:14:01,760
Speaker 2: the van i'd had at home, and they said, I,

1648
01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:04,439
Speaker 2: you've got a couple of minutes. And sure, they shruck

1649
01:14:04,479 --> 01:14:05,560
Speaker 2: me in the office and closed the door, and I

1650
01:14:05,560 --> 01:14:08,479
Speaker 2: thought me and had I'm thinking, am I about to

1651
01:14:08,520 --> 01:14:10,160
Speaker 2: be sacked for the first time in my life? So

1652
01:14:10,160 --> 01:14:12,519
Speaker 2: you sent me there? He's left, I said, I didn't

1653
01:14:12,560 --> 01:14:16,519
Speaker 2: know that i'd been away and they said, I said,

1654
01:14:16,520 --> 01:14:18,680
Speaker 2: they said, we'd like you to stay on and take

1655
01:14:18,720 --> 01:14:21,800
Speaker 2: the job on four times. Can I have a think

1656
01:14:21,840 --> 01:14:24,120
Speaker 2: about it? So I went off and spoke to my

1657
01:14:24,120 --> 01:14:27,559
Speaker 2: wife and said, yeah, so now I'm a full time

1658
01:14:27,640 --> 01:14:30,800
Speaker 2: funeral director on the Gold coastomer Okay, well, and it

1659
01:14:30,880 --> 01:14:33,240
Speaker 2: pays rubbish. You don't do it for the money, but

1660
01:14:33,280 --> 01:14:35,200
Speaker 2: it's it's an extent to what I.

1661
01:14:35,120 --> 01:14:37,599
Speaker 1: Was doing, saying, all the death that you've seen in

1662
01:14:37,640 --> 01:14:41,479
Speaker 1: all sorts of forms of excellence, murders and what you're

1663
01:14:41,520 --> 01:14:44,400
Speaker 1: dealing with now, does it make you reflect on death? Oh?

1664
01:14:44,439 --> 01:14:47,680
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I've lost County Mountain in the relatively short time

1665
01:14:47,680 --> 01:14:49,439
Speaker 2: I've been doing it. I've lost County Mountain. Times I've

1666
01:14:49,439 --> 01:14:52,200
Speaker 2: buried and cremated people are much younger than me. And

1667
01:14:52,240 --> 01:14:54,360
Speaker 2: the speed that some of these people have got sick too.

1668
01:14:55,120 --> 01:14:59,679
Speaker 2: They've ignored the basic medical things, and you hear horror

1669
01:14:59,680 --> 01:15:02,880
Speaker 2: stories for people they were fine, they've died like in

1670
01:15:03,000 --> 01:15:05,599
Speaker 2: nine days they went into hospital and nine days data

1671
01:15:05,760 --> 01:15:07,880
Speaker 2: that they're in my office saying we need to plan

1672
01:15:07,920 --> 01:15:08,920
Speaker 2: a funeral. We've got to do this.

1673
01:15:09,400 --> 01:15:12,200
Speaker 1: Does it make you approach your life a little bit differently?

1674
01:15:12,400 --> 01:15:13,600
Speaker 2: Absolutely differently?

1675
01:15:14,000 --> 01:15:15,479
Speaker 1: What's your approach?

1676
01:15:15,560 --> 01:15:17,240
Speaker 2: I think you've certainly got it, you know, every time

1677
01:15:17,280 --> 01:15:19,880
Speaker 2: I wake up now, But this also comes back to

1678
01:15:19,920 --> 01:15:22,799
Speaker 2: my I had a brain tumor removed in twenty twenty

1679
01:15:22,880 --> 01:15:25,160
Speaker 2: as well. That's that changes your outlook on life when

1680
01:15:25,200 --> 01:15:27,760
Speaker 2: you think you're about to die and may not come

1681
01:15:27,800 --> 01:15:30,080
Speaker 2: out of surgery. That was that was pretty harrowing too.

1682
01:15:30,320 --> 01:15:33,840
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think you've just got to live live

1683
01:15:34,000 --> 01:15:37,599
Speaker 2: each day to the best of your ability, because tomorrow

1684
01:15:37,760 --> 01:15:40,040
Speaker 2: isn't guaranteed, as they say, And I've met plenty of

1685
01:15:40,040 --> 01:15:43,479
Speaker 2: people who, yeah, they have all these plans. It can

1686
01:15:43,520 --> 01:15:45,599
Speaker 2: be quite heartbreaking when you see, you know, you're talking

1687
01:15:45,680 --> 01:15:48,640
Speaker 2: to wives or husbands and they're still working, they've got

1688
01:15:48,680 --> 01:15:52,800
Speaker 2: their plans to do it, and then yeah, something happens,

1689
01:15:52,360 --> 01:15:55,599
Speaker 2: someone passes away, and all that goes out the window.

1690
01:15:55,720 --> 01:15:57,880
Speaker 2: You know, the caravan's no longer going to be used,

1691
01:15:58,280 --> 01:16:00,600
Speaker 2: the forward drive I don't need of this stuff is

1692
01:16:00,600 --> 01:16:03,000
Speaker 2: still on order. Yeah, it's it's come that close. They

1693
01:16:03,000 --> 01:16:05,960
Speaker 2: haven't even taken delivery of their holiday vehicles yet and

1694
01:16:06,040 --> 01:16:09,479
Speaker 2: the things. So yeah, if you every day you wake up,

1695
01:16:09,520 --> 01:16:12,720
Speaker 2: be grateful that you know you've waken up every day.

1696
01:16:12,800 --> 01:16:14,960
Speaker 2: There's there's at least now two or three people every

1697
01:16:15,040 --> 01:16:16,519
Speaker 2: day on the Gold Coasts that are not waking up.

1698
01:16:17,360 --> 01:16:21,439
Speaker 1: Okay, well that's a that's a good advice and to

1699
01:16:22,479 --> 01:16:26,240
Speaker 1: feed to us. And yeah, about the way you approach life,

1700
01:16:26,240 --> 01:16:28,800
Speaker 1: I see a good energy here. You're not You're not

1701
01:16:28,840 --> 01:16:33,200
Speaker 1: this disgruntled, burnt out a cop that's angry, angry at

1702
01:16:33,200 --> 01:16:35,479
Speaker 1: the world, and I like to see that. I love

1703
01:16:35,520 --> 01:16:37,599
Speaker 1: seeing people that have been through a career look back

1704
01:16:37,640 --> 01:16:41,400
Speaker 1: in their career, enjoy the highs, understand the lows, and

1705
01:16:41,520 --> 01:16:42,679
Speaker 1: you seem to have a good break.

1706
01:16:42,960 --> 01:16:45,120
Speaker 2: I've been very fortunate, very fortunate in my career, my

1707
01:16:45,120 --> 01:16:48,040
Speaker 2: life in general. It's yeah, you've got to take each

1708
01:16:48,120 --> 01:16:50,519
Speaker 2: each day as it comes, and I've been very fortunate

1709
01:16:50,520 --> 01:16:53,120
Speaker 2: in my careers. I've had great mentors, and that's why

1710
01:16:53,320 --> 01:16:54,960
Speaker 2: I'm quite happy to try and give a bit back now,

1711
01:16:54,960 --> 01:16:58,640
Speaker 2: particularly the autumnic Fortum is an awesome organization and the

1712
01:16:58,680 --> 01:17:01,480
Speaker 2: way they've expanded now to trying to all first responders.

1713
01:17:01,840 --> 01:17:04,760
Speaker 2: Was just police, now it's emergency services. Think ses were

1714
01:17:04,800 --> 01:17:06,160
Speaker 2: involved now and can be involved.

1715
01:17:06,200 --> 01:17:08,880
Speaker 1: If people want to reach out, how do they just.

1716
01:17:08,840 --> 01:17:12,479
Speaker 2: Google fort them? F IM, they're not for profit. If

1717
01:17:12,479 --> 01:17:14,120
Speaker 2: anyone's not some spare money want to throw them, I'm

1718
01:17:14,120 --> 01:17:17,840
Speaker 2: sure they'll take your money, but yeah, they're have a look.

1719
01:17:17,840 --> 01:17:21,120
Speaker 2: If you're not aware and you're already in emergency services,

1720
01:17:21,160 --> 01:17:23,120
Speaker 2: then you can get onto it because there's a lot

1721
01:17:23,160 --> 01:17:26,160
Speaker 2: there to offer, even if it's just a social day

1722
01:17:26,640 --> 01:17:29,080
Speaker 2: with your family. Yeah, these things are free. Give on it.

1723
01:17:29,200 --> 01:17:32,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's shout out to them for sure. Thank you

1724
01:17:32,280 --> 01:17:37,200
Speaker 1: so much for coming on. I've thoroughly enjoyed the enjoyed

1725
01:17:37,200 --> 01:17:41,000
Speaker 1: the chat. Yeah I know it's fall asleep, so I

1726
01:17:41,040 --> 01:17:43,559
Speaker 1: suspect that, and who cares if people listen. We've enjoyed

1727
01:17:43,880 --> 01:17:44,160
Speaker 1: this is it.

1728
01:17:44,800 --> 01:17:45,680
Speaker 2: There's all about us.

1729
01:17:46,840 --> 01:17:50,200
Speaker 1: Congratulations on your career too, think thirty six years in

1730
01:17:51,080 --> 01:17:52,760
Speaker 1: the police and the type of work that you've done,

1731
01:17:52,800 --> 01:17:55,120
Speaker 1: the service to the community. And I mean that genuinely

1732
01:17:55,160 --> 01:17:58,280
Speaker 1: because I know there's there's working police and there's other

1733
01:17:58,320 --> 01:18:01,040
Speaker 1: type than You've obviously rolled leaves up and add a game,

1734
01:18:01,280 --> 01:18:03,639
Speaker 1: pay the price. But yeah, you're still got a good

1735
01:18:03,680 --> 01:18:06,760
Speaker 1: now look on. So thanks very much for coming on.

1736
01:18:06,880 --> 01:18:07,639
Speaker 1: I catch kills.

1737
01:18:07,680 --> 01:18:09,240
Speaker 2: Thank you very much. Jesus