1
00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:06,680
Speaker 1: From the Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.

2
00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:13,000
Speaker 1: It's Friday, June twenty seven, twenty twenty five. Schools will

3
00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:16,520
Speaker 1: get help to involve police when students share explicit deep

4
00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:19,800
Speaker 1: fake images of one another. The e Safety Commissioner Julie

5
00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:24,400
Speaker 1: Inman Grant says students are using AI to undress their peers.

6
00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:31,040
Speaker 1: Spain has broken with NATO allies in refusing to lift

7
00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:35,080
Speaker 1: defense spending to five percent of GDP. Donald Trump says

8
00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:38,640
Speaker 1: the decision by Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez is terrible

9
00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:42,120
Speaker 1: and is vowed to hit Spain with fresh tariffs in retaliation.

10
00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:45,199
Speaker 1: You can read the latest world news right now at

11
00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:51,280
Speaker 1: the Australian dot com dot AU. A storm has blown

12
00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,800
Speaker 1: up over a Melbourne suburban council sacking a street sweeper

13
00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:58,640
Speaker 1: who objected to an acknowledgment of country at a toolbox meeting.

14
00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:02,320
Speaker 1: The council a Q used Shawn Turner of serious misconduct,

15
00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,759
Speaker 1: but the Fair Work Commission says he was unfairly dismissed.

16
00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:09,679
Speaker 1: Today what are you allowed to say or think at

17
00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:19,600
Speaker 1: work these days? From early morning in the quiet northern

18
00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:23,160
Speaker 1: suburbs of Melbourne, council staff who keep our streets clean

19
00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:26,560
Speaker 1: gather for regular meetings to discuss the day's order of

20
00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:32,000
Speaker 1: business rubbish, potholes, gutters, drains. But when a recent meeting

21
00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:36,200
Speaker 1: commenced with an acknowledgment of country the local traditional owners

22
00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:39,200
Speaker 1: of the Warunjurie Wolverine people, one of the blokes who

23
00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,720
Speaker 1: drives a street sweeping truck, Shawn Turner, spoke up.

24
00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:48,040
Speaker 2: He said, are you joking why we're doing this?

25
00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:50,400
Speaker 3: And he said if we need to be thanking anyone,

26
00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:52,720
Speaker 3: it's the people who have worn the uniform and for

27
00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:54,320
Speaker 3: our country to keep us free.

28
00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:58,240
Speaker 1: That's you and Hannon. He's the workplace editor at The

29
00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,440
Speaker 1: Australian and he's broken this worry about Turner, who was

30
00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:03,480
Speaker 1: sacked for what he said at that meeting.

31
00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:07,560
Speaker 3: The issue was taken up the chain to the council

32
00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:11,239
Speaker 3: and there was a complaint made about mister Turner's behavior.

33
00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:16,800
Speaker 3: There was an investigation against mister Turner in relation to

34
00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,679
Speaker 3: alleged breaches of the Council's Code of Conduct and its

35
00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:25,240
Speaker 3: equal opportunity policy, and during that investigation he told the

36
00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:29,720
Speaker 3: two female managers who were investigating the claim that this

37
00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:32,960
Speaker 3: is getting out of hand. In relation to the acknowledgement

38
00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:33,520
Speaker 3: of country.

39
00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:34,960
Speaker 2: People are losing it.

40
00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,440
Speaker 3: It's now being done at the opening of a postage stamp.

41
00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,480
Speaker 3: I don't object to the acknowledgment of the country being done,

42
00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,200
Speaker 3: but i'd pre further have the option to be able

43
00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:45,800
Speaker 3: to walk out when it's being done.

44
00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:50,800
Speaker 1: Turner's employer, the labor in Green's heavy Daraban City Council,

45
00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,560
Speaker 1: accused him of serious misconduct. He was summoned to a

46
00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,400
Speaker 1: meeting with managers where who has offered the opportunity to

47
00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:01,280
Speaker 1: bring a support person. Turner, who says he has Aboriginal

48
00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:04,040
Speaker 1: friends and relatives, brought an indigenous supporter.

49
00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:08,600
Speaker 3: It actually trained some Aboriginal workers on the job. So

50
00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:11,760
Speaker 3: he said, this has nothing to do with any alleged racism.

51
00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:13,960
Speaker 2: This is just about his freedom of speech.

52
00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,560
Speaker 3: And during the meeting he was quite robust in the

53
00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:21,679
Speaker 3: way he was answering questions. There was a funny exchange

54
00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:25,160
Speaker 3: in the commission proceedings where he was talking about his

55
00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:27,440
Speaker 3: character and he said, oh, people say I'm frank, and

56
00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:29,799
Speaker 3: one of the reasons I'm quite forthwright is that I'm

57
00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,440
Speaker 3: half deaf, and so people interpret that's a certain way.

58
00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:37,680
Speaker 3: But he said the two investigators believed that he was

59
00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:41,440
Speaker 3: being quite offensive in his comments, and after the meeting

60
00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:46,360
Speaker 3: they independently rang the Indigenous support person to apologize on

61
00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:51,160
Speaker 3: mister Turner's behalf, even though the Indigenous support person had

62
00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,240
Speaker 3: taken no offense whatsoever. So that would sort of been

63
00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:57,120
Speaker 3: an illustration of the political sensitivities here that are being

64
00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:58,720
Speaker 3: undertaken by the cancel.

65
00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,840
Speaker 1: So there were differing accounts of exactly how mister Turner

66
00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:08,160
Speaker 1: expressed himself at that first Toolbox meeting. The Council said

67
00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:12,600
Speaker 1: that he had said that Aboriginal and Torrestrad Island too

68
00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:16,080
Speaker 1: people do not deserve an acknowledgment at the start of meetings.

69
00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,320
Speaker 1: He denied, saying that didn't he that's right.

70
00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:21,919
Speaker 3: So in the charges that were put against him for

71
00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:24,200
Speaker 3: the breaches of the Code of Conduct, there was an

72
00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,599
Speaker 3: alleged that he said the acknowledgment was not necessary and

73
00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:30,520
Speaker 3: that Aboriginal Toastrada and the people did not deserve any

74
00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:32,760
Speaker 3: acknowledgement at the start of meetings point blank.

75
00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:35,840
Speaker 2: It also cited some derogatory.

76
00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:39,599
Speaker 3: Comments he made about another colleague, but the commission found

77
00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,360
Speaker 3: and mister Turner insisted that he didn't make those comments

78
00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:46,599
Speaker 3: at all, they weren't to sweeping comments, they weren't disrespectful, sarcastical,

79
00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:50,400
Speaker 3: or aggressive. And essentially what he said was if anyone

80
00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:52,560
Speaker 3: was to be acknowledged or thanked at a meeting, it

81
00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:54,520
Speaker 3: should be the servicemen and women who had fought for

82
00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:58,760
Speaker 3: this country. They talked about the fact that he said that,

83
00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:00,880
Speaker 3: I don't think it should be how at every meeting.

84
00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,400
Speaker 3: I want the courtesy of being able to walk out

85
00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:05,920
Speaker 3: of those meetings, so I don't object to you doing

86
00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:07,120
Speaker 3: and I just don't want to be there.

87
00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,320
Speaker 1: The Fair Work Commission found Turner had been wrongfully dismissed

88
00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:18,600
Speaker 1: and rejected the council's claim that he'd been disrespectful or aggressive.

89
00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,880
Speaker 1: Mister Turner wants his job back. How did that go?

90
00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:25,599
Speaker 3: Mister Turner believes he should be able to go back

91
00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,840
Speaker 3: to his job. If that can't be worked through in

92
00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:32,800
Speaker 3: subsequent commission proceedings, then he'll be awarded a certain amount

93
00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:36,400
Speaker 3: of compensation, which sort of looks at how much money

94
00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:40,640
Speaker 3: he's lost since he's lost his job, and also in

95
00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:42,479
Speaker 3: terms of the conduct.

96
00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:42,680
Speaker 2: Of the employer.

97
00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,400
Speaker 1: He was represented at the hearing by his union, which

98
00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:47,760
Speaker 1: union is that Ewan.

99
00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:49,599
Speaker 2: That's the Australian Services Union.

100
00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:51,760
Speaker 3: So I think generally the union movement it would be

101
00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:55,320
Speaker 3: supportive of acknowledgment of the country, Welcome the Country ceremonies.

102
00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:58,960
Speaker 3: I think where the issue is here is where they

103
00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:01,719
Speaker 3: also believe and I think the right of members to

104
00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,680
Speaker 3: disagree with that. So where it gets into a situation

105
00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:09,360
Speaker 3: where an employer takes adverse action against the worker sacks them,

106
00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:12,080
Speaker 3: they're going to be coming in there first to represent

107
00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,400
Speaker 3: their members rather than sort of prioritizing any sort of

108
00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:16,679
Speaker 3: political belief I think.

109
00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,520
Speaker 1: So we've seen another high profile case in recent days

110
00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:24,320
Speaker 1: where a union, the Media, Entertainment and Arts Alliance, was

111
00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,560
Speaker 1: supporting a worker who said that she'd been sacked for

112
00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,920
Speaker 1: having an opinion. That's Antoinette Latouffe, who is a casual

113
00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,840
Speaker 1: presenter at the ABC. She lost some shifts after posting

114
00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:37,680
Speaker 1: about the war in Gaza, and the Federal Court has

115
00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:43,159
Speaker 1: found that she was unlawfully terminated for holding a political opinion.

116
00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,000
Speaker 1: In this matter, the matter of Sean Turner, the Fair

117
00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:52,080
Speaker 1: Work Commission said that expressing his opinion about acknowledgment of

118
00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:56,279
Speaker 1: country did not constitute a valid reason for dismissal. So

119
00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:58,800
Speaker 1: you and how do we marry those two things up,

120
00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,599
Speaker 1: and what do you think think is the situation in

121
00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:05,240
Speaker 1: a workplace? Now? How free are Australian workers to express

122
00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:07,120
Speaker 1: a political opinion or to hold one?

123
00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:08,200
Speaker 2: Well?

124
00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:12,640
Speaker 3: I think in the case of Sean Turner, this was

125
00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:17,640
Speaker 3: a case of a botched, unfair dismissal where I spoke

126
00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:21,120
Speaker 3: to some prominent legal lawyers this morning who said this

127
00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,680
Speaker 3: is a case studying and how not to handle a dismissal.

128
00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:26,200
Speaker 3: They say they don't think it sets a precedent in

129
00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:29,600
Speaker 3: relation to acknowledgment a country and the right to express

130
00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:34,200
Speaker 3: political opinion or free speech. It's more about the circumstances

131
00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,400
Speaker 3: of the particular case, and in this case, every step

132
00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:40,960
Speaker 3: along the way the employer really hasn't handled it properly.

133
00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:43,960
Speaker 3: So that's why the Farewek Commission was able to sort

134
00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:47,040
Speaker 3: of lay out all the reasons why he had been

135
00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:47,920
Speaker 3: treated unfairly.

136
00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,520
Speaker 1: That's similar to the Federal court finding about Antoinette le toof,

137
00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:54,000
Speaker 1: isn't it where the ABC was found not to have

138
00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:57,160
Speaker 1: lived up to its own procedures of giving her a

139
00:07:57,240 --> 00:07:59,000
Speaker 1: fair chance to defend herself.

140
00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:00,360
Speaker 2: That's right.

141
00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,400
Speaker 3: So I think both these cases go to the issue

142
00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:08,120
Speaker 3: of people expressing opinions and how it intertwines with companies

143
00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:12,880
Speaker 3: brand reputation or in the ABC's case, brand reputation or

144
00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,680
Speaker 3: and how that intertwines with companies in social media policies,

145
00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:18,440
Speaker 3: and what can be done in the age of social

146
00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:22,400
Speaker 3: media when you express an opinion and companies trying to

147
00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:25,880
Speaker 3: enforce sort of tough social media guidelines and people and

148
00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:29,480
Speaker 3: where that encroaches them people's public opinions and right to

149
00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:34,280
Speaker 3: freedom of expression, and where the line is drawn between

150
00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:38,480
Speaker 3: the employer's rights and the employees' rights to express an opinion.

151
00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:46,239
Speaker 1: Coming up, So what do Australians really think about acknowledgments

152
00:08:46,240 --> 00:09:03,720
Speaker 1: of country? You and you talk to everybody in the

153
00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:07,840
Speaker 1: industrial sector, from unions to bosses, to the government to

154
00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,480
Speaker 1: the opposition. There was a bit of an attempt at

155
00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:14,560
Speaker 1: the last federal election by Peter Dutton to bring welcome

156
00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:17,160
Speaker 1: to country or people perceived its being a bit over

157
00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,000
Speaker 1: welcomes to country. He tried to make that an issue

158
00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:24,439
Speaker 1: at the election. That didn't work. What's your sense from

159
00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:28,079
Speaker 1: talking to people across workplaces of how hot this is

160
00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:28,840
Speaker 1: is an issue?

161
00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:32,000
Speaker 3: Ollo it's certainly a big talking point across media and

162
00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:33,520
Speaker 3: you listen to talkback radio.

163
00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:35,720
Speaker 2: You certainly heard it talked about a lot.

164
00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,000
Speaker 3: You can see from the reaction to our readers to

165
00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:42,040
Speaker 3: the story today that it's a big discussion point. I

166
00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:44,400
Speaker 3: think there needs to be a balance strike about when

167
00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:48,080
Speaker 3: you do acknowledgment of country. I think in this case,

168
00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:52,080
Speaker 3: this work it doesn't object to acknowledgement of the country

169
00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,080
Speaker 3: per se, but it's about the question of whether it

170
00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:58,160
Speaker 3: goes too far, whether it's necessary all the time. So

171
00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,080
Speaker 3: in the case that you know, with this council, for example,

172
00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:04,560
Speaker 3: their policy is to have it with every meeting.

173
00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:07,720
Speaker 2: And I've had people contact me today saying.

174
00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:11,040
Speaker 3: We have seven eight meetings a day where we have

175
00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:13,480
Speaker 3: to do acknowledgment in the country, and they think that

176
00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,760
Speaker 3: probably goes too far. So you've got to I think

177
00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:19,599
Speaker 3: you've got to strike the balance right, be respectful to

178
00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,520
Speaker 3: Aboriginal trial State Orleans, but on the same time, don't

179
00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:23,080
Speaker 3: overdo it.

180
00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:25,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, And do you think we are kind of landing

181
00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:28,559
Speaker 1: at some sensible place. There are there organizations that are

182
00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:31,760
Speaker 1: reducing it to be just at big meetings where it's

183
00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:35,079
Speaker 1: a whole workforce, or do you see it kind of everywhere.

184
00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:37,280
Speaker 2: I think it's a pretty contested space.

185
00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:41,000
Speaker 3: I think there are some organizations who probably do overdo it,

186
00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:43,160
Speaker 3: and then there are some who go the other way.

187
00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:47,199
Speaker 3: So I think there should be an ability for employees

188
00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:49,440
Speaker 3: and employees probably to have a discussion about it to

189
00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:53,000
Speaker 3: work out a sensible policy. I mean mister Turner's argument

190
00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:58,000
Speaker 3: was that it should be done in a sizeable significant events.

191
00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:00,000
Speaker 2: Including when there are international visitors.

192
00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,640
Speaker 3: You see, there has been like in Melbourne, for example,

193
00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:07,280
Speaker 3: there was a lot of discussion about the AFL and

194
00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:11,880
Speaker 3: the AFL being too politically woken, politically correct and having

195
00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:15,240
Speaker 3: acknowledgment of countries and welcome the country, and there was

196
00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:17,880
Speaker 3: a bit of a backlash there's by some sections of

197
00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:20,960
Speaker 3: the community. But I've been at football games when there's

198
00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,400
Speaker 3: been acknowledgement and country and the whole crowd we're talking

199
00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:26,640
Speaker 3: about eighty thousand people will.

200
00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,080
Speaker 2: Stand up and applaud in support of those people.

201
00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,960
Speaker 3: So I think there's a contested position amongst the community there.

202
00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:36,320
Speaker 1: Would it be fair to say that acknowledgments don't belong

203
00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:40,520
Speaker 1: at toolbox meetings of street sweepers at suburban city councils.

204
00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,880
Speaker 3: I think what they did in this case is that

205
00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,320
Speaker 3: they didn't give anyone a full warning or discussion about it.

206
00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,520
Speaker 3: So the fact that they didn't follow their process, and

207
00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:54,199
Speaker 3: they seem to be very big on everyone following a process,

208
00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:57,800
Speaker 3: whether it be equal opportunity or these policies, they have

209
00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:00,360
Speaker 3: the fact that they didn't do that and just pries

210
00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,760
Speaker 3: the workers, and then it led to the snowballing effect,

211
00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,080
Speaker 3: which suggests that they probably could have another review of

212
00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:07,880
Speaker 3: their own policies.

213
00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:19,200
Speaker 1: You and Hannon is The Australian's workplace editor. He breaks

214
00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,240
Speaker 1: all the big yarns and he talks to absolutely everyone.

215
00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:25,600
Speaker 1: You can follow his reporting by joining ours subscribers at

216
00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:27,600
Speaker 1: the Australian dot com dot au