WEBVTT - Adam Bandt on the first big test for Labor’s nature laws

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<v Speaker 1>The draft decision on the World Heritage status of the

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<v Speaker 1>Great Barrier Reef has confirmed all of the hard work

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<v Speaker 1>that everyone has put in to continue to protect this

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<v Speaker 1>wonderful natural acid.

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<v Speaker 2>The Great Barrier Reef has avoided being placed on UNESCO's

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<v Speaker 2>in danger list for now.

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<v Speaker 1>We're backing practical action alongside farmers, local councils and communities

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<v Speaker 1>to ensure it continues to be that wonderful icon of

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<v Speaker 1>Queensland and we're backing in with a record investment in

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<v Speaker 1>water quality.

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<v Speaker 2>But the warning hasn't gone away. UNESCO says Australia still

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<v Speaker 2>needs to do more to protect the reef, saying much

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<v Speaker 2>of the damage to the reef begins far inland when

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<v Speaker 2>bushland is cleared and soil washes into the rivers that

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<v Speaker 2>flow out to the coral.

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<v Speaker 3>The un body did raise utmost concern over declining coral

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<v Speaker 3>cover following recent mass bleaching events. It also said poor

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<v Speaker 3>water quality was a worry, asking for a progress report

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<v Speaker 3>by twenty twenty eight.

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<v Speaker 2>Own Conservation Foundation says bulldozing for beef production is a

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<v Speaker 2>major driver of that runoff, and now Australia's new national

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<v Speaker 2>environment watchdog has opened its doors with more than one

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<v Speaker 2>hundred potentially illegal land clearing cases already on its books.

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<v Speaker 2>But as Labour promises stronger nature protection and faster approvals,

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<v Speaker 2>will the new laws actually stop the clearing or just

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<v Speaker 2>speed up a broken system. I'm Daniel James and you're

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<v Speaker 2>listening to seven am today CEO of the Australian Conservation Foundation,

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<v Speaker 2>Adam band and the first test of Labour's new natural

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<v Speaker 2>laws and whether they can make an impact before it's

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<v Speaker 2>too late. It's Friday, July sevent eighth. Adam Bant, thanks

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<v Speaker 2>for joining us pleasure, thanks having beyond. The Federal Environment

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<v Speaker 2>Department says it had over one hundred open cases involving

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<v Speaker 2>alleged breaches of National Gronment law, many around land clearing

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<v Speaker 2>that was never referred for assessment. So can you start

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<v Speaker 2>by telling me what kind of clearing we're talking about here.

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<v Speaker 4>We're talking about clearing of forest and bush primarily for

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<v Speaker 4>beef for burgers and paddies that are sold in fast

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<v Speaker 4>food restaurants and in supermarkets. And the scale of the

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<v Speaker 4>problem in Australia is really huge.

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<v Speaker 5>More than half of the Australian continent is used for

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<v Speaker 5>grazing livestock and there's been a growing push to stop

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<v Speaker 5>deforestation link to beef.

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<v Speaker 4>People know about the effects of clearing for palm oil

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<v Speaker 4>of forests in Indonesia. Well, in recent years more forest

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<v Speaker 4>has been and bush has been cleared in Queensland than

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<v Speaker 4>in Indonesia for palm oil. It's why Australia is one

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<v Speaker 4>of the global deforestation hotspots.

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<v Speaker 5>In Queensland and alone Shamefully, analysis from the Wilderness Society

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<v Speaker 5>shows that every four minutes, threatened species habitat the scale

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<v Speaker 5>of Sydney harbor Bridge area is bulldozed for beef every four.

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<v Speaker 4>Minutes, and with half of Australia zone for agriculture. This

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<v Speaker 4>supermarket and fast food corporation driven clearing that we've been

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<v Speaker 4>saying is a big part of the reason that we

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<v Speaker 4>now have koalas on the threatened species list in parts

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<v Speaker 4>of the country. So it's destruction of koala habitat and

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<v Speaker 4>of course other species as well, regient honeyeaters gliders that

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<v Speaker 4>are being pushed closer to extinction. We are one of

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<v Speaker 4>the only developed countries in the world still driving large.

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<v Speaker 2>Scale deforestation on nature.

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<v Speaker 5>Our record is tragically one of the worst.

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<v Speaker 4>They're losing their homes and in Australia. It's being driven

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<v Speaker 4>by this deforestation crisis.

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<v Speaker 2>So we're talking about hectares of land I have much

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<v Speaker 2>and over what timescale? And is this this thing that

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<v Speaker 2>is speeding up.

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<v Speaker 4>Look, we're talking about a small number minority of landholders

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<v Speaker 4>who are doing this. You're talking about around about two

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<v Speaker 4>hundred across the entire country, responsible for about half of

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<v Speaker 4>this kind of deforestation. But in terms of the size

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<v Speaker 4>of the area, looks since twenty nineteen lost an area

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<v Speaker 4>about the size of the act. Part of the problem

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<v Speaker 4>is that a lot of the surveying and monitoring of

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<v Speaker 4>this is being done by groups like ACF through Citizens

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<v Speaker 4>Science for our Investigates process, and it has been something

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<v Speaker 4>that over many years federal governments have really not paid

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<v Speaker 4>attention to.

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<v Speaker 2>So a lot of them monitoring the date has relied

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<v Speaker 2>on a lot of citizens. That's right.

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<v Speaker 4>There are people on their tram on the way to

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<v Speaker 4>work looking at their mobile phone. Some of them might

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<v Speaker 4>actually be stopping bulldozers because ACF runs a program ACF

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<v Speaker 4>Investigates where citizen scientists can anyone can jump on the

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<v Speaker 4>phone and compare before and after pictures from satellite and

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<v Speaker 4>we've got it down to sort of more or less

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<v Speaker 4>close to real time around about two weeks as you're

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<v Speaker 4>looking at the before and after pictures. And in our

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<v Speaker 4>most recent round of ACF investigates had about sixteen hundred

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<v Speaker 4>citizen scigentis from across thirty nine countries who were monitoring

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<v Speaker 4>this data and that's resulted in some of these cases

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<v Speaker 4>that have been referred to the government. And you said

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<v Speaker 4>that the new EPA will have about just over one

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<v Speaker 4>hundred cases on its books. About a third of those

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<v Speaker 4>have been preferred by ACF, and a lot of that

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<v Speaker 4>has come through people on the train on the way

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<v Speaker 4>to work comparing the before and after pictures on their

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<v Speaker 4>phones and we've been taking those to the government department. Historically,

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<v Speaker 4>federally and indeed in many of the states, it was

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<v Speaker 4>often met with a bit of a shriker of the shoulders,

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<v Speaker 4>but that's changing now with the laws that have been changed.

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<v Speaker 4>Now this kind of bulldozing of the bush has to

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<v Speaker 4>now go through the federal processes, especially if you're in

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<v Speaker 4>one of the great Barrier reef catchment areas in Queensland.

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<v Speaker 2>So before the clearing takes place, what is supposed to

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<v Speaker 2>happen before the bulldozeres come in, what is the process?

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<v Speaker 2>Can you just lay it out for us a little bit.

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<v Speaker 4>So to rewind a little bit, was understood sort of

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<v Speaker 4>across the board that the previous rules didn't have strong

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<v Speaker 4>standards in them to protect vulnerable species and vulnerable areas.

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<v Speaker 4>And one of the things that the recommendation when looking

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<v Speaker 4>at reforming those rules said was you don't know what

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<v Speaker 4>is meant to be protected, and there aren't strong standards

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<v Speaker 4>in the legislation that say this is what counts as

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<v Speaker 4>real protection, and it was all like a lot of

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<v Speaker 4>it was left up to discretion. Historically, there was an

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<v Speaker 4>exemption for what was called continuous use. If you've done

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<v Speaker 4>it before, you were allowed to keep doing it in

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<v Speaker 4>an utshell in certain respects. That's now gone. And similarly,

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<v Speaker 4>one of the new parts of the law requires that

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<v Speaker 4>if you're within a fifty made an area of one

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<v Speaker 4>of the water courses that feeds into the rivers that

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<v Speaker 4>go out into the Great Barrier Reef, and you're wanting

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<v Speaker 4>to clear forest in there that's over fifteen years old,

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<v Speaker 4>then you have to go through the application process. Now

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<v Speaker 4>that's a huge step forward, and this is why the

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<v Speaker 4>National EPA is now going to be looking at a

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<v Speaker 4>number of these cases to determine whether or not they

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<v Speaker 4>should have gone through the process of seeking a permit

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<v Speaker 4>before doing it. But there's still second part to it,

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<v Speaker 4>which we're waiting on the federal government to actually set

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<v Speaker 4>out what the rules are against which these applications are

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<v Speaker 4>going to be assessed. That's still to be laid down

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<v Speaker 4>in law by the Environment Minister Murraybott. And the draft

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<v Speaker 4>that's out at the moment doesn't do the job, doesn't

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<v Speaker 4>protect nature. The draft that's out really just says if

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<v Speaker 4>a developer says they've looked at how they can protect

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<v Speaker 4>in the environment, then by and large that's going to

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<v Speaker 4>be enough. Now that's the legal device that we've received

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<v Speaker 4>about the effects of the legislation, it becomes very much

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<v Speaker 4>a process question, like as long as you go through

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<v Speaker 4>a certain process and tick a box, then you'd comply

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<v Speaker 4>with the draft standard as it's out at the moment.

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<v Speaker 4>That's our real concern is that we go back to process,

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<v Speaker 4>we go back to a ticker box approach and those

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<v Speaker 4>really strong standards with teeth just won't be in there.

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<v Speaker 2>Still to come, Can Australia really build a clean energy

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<v Speaker 2>transition without clearing more habitat.

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<v Speaker 6>We now have a strong regulatory toolkit. We have stronger

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<v Speaker 6>powers for environmental protection. We have expanded orditing framework. We

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<v Speaker 6>have increased enualities for serious and deliberate environmental harm. It

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<v Speaker 6>means you get consistency, means you get transparency. It means

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<v Speaker 6>you get integrity in environmental decision making. At a national level.

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<v Speaker 6>The EPA will be a strong independent regulator.

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<v Speaker 2>Out of this, Watchdog is one part of a much

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<v Speaker 2>bigger reform. There was broad consensus that Australia's nature laws

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<v Speaker 2>won't fit for purpose. Conservationist said it was failing nature

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<v Speaker 2>and business, that it was slow and uncertain. Is that

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<v Speaker 2>the basic contradiction that the government is trying to fix here.

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<v Speaker 4>That's certainly how the government expresses it, but really what

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<v Speaker 4>we just hope that that's not code for is that

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<v Speaker 4>standards are too strong. What we want to make sure

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<v Speaker 4>is that, yes, decisions can be made in an efficient way,

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<v Speaker 4>But really what it comes down to is what are

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<v Speaker 4>they going to be assessed against. If they're strong and

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<v Speaker 4>often nature real protection, then I imagine you could make

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<v Speaker 4>a number of assessments quite quickly. But in a context

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<v Speaker 4>where the new laws allow some of this decision making

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<v Speaker 4>to be handed off to state governments, where we know

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<v Speaker 4>state governments don't always have a great track record on

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<v Speaker 4>this front, and in many instances, like historically you look back,

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<v Speaker 4>it's been the federal government that's had to come in

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<v Speaker 4>over the top of rogue state and territory governments. Well,

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<v Speaker 4>if these state and territory governments now are given the

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<v Speaker 4>power to decide under the federal laws whether a process

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<v Speaker 4>can go ahead, then that's all the more reason why

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<v Speaker 4>there has to be really strong, clear and precise standards,

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<v Speaker 4>because then, yes, you could make a decision quickly that no,

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<v Speaker 4>this is going to push some threatened species closer to extinction,

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<v Speaker 4>and so it's not allowed to go ahead. But if

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<v Speaker 4>it's still just essentially a ticker box exercise, then you

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<v Speaker 4>could end up with the worst of both worlds.

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<v Speaker 2>There's another tension that if the watchdog is actually tough,

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't that mean that some projects will be slow or

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<v Speaker 2>get knocked back at a time when the government is

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<v Speaker 2>hoping to speed up approvals for housing, renewables and other infrastructure.

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<v Speaker 4>Look, we're in an extension crisis, and we have got

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<v Speaker 4>iconic species years threatened with extinction.

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<v Speaker 2>Australia's already a world leader.

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<v Speaker 4>In mammal extension and we've now got the climate crisis

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<v Speaker 4>coming along as a massive threat multiplier. The government's Environment

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<v Speaker 4>Department has been saying for years now that climate crisis

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<v Speaker 4>is the number one threat to Australia is biodiversity and

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<v Speaker 4>so really, how much more can nature take in Australia.

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<v Speaker 4>It can't take anymore and it's already on the brink.

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<v Speaker 4>So now it's the time to actually invest in protecting nature,

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<v Speaker 4>which is the life support system for us all and

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<v Speaker 4>decisions that get made now will reverberate for generations. And

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<v Speaker 4>once biodiversity and ecosystems are gone, that could be very

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<v Speaker 4>difficult to recover. And once the species is extinct, like

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<v Speaker 4>extent is forever. And so we would say there's no

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<v Speaker 4>argument for saying you've got to speed up decisions that

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<v Speaker 4>that's going to result in some species being pushed a

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<v Speaker 4>step closer to extinctionion because once that happens it could

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<v Speaker 4>be a reversal.

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<v Speaker 2>And finally, Adam, I think the question that really sits

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<v Speaker 2>at the heart of all is we do need transition

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<v Speaker 2>to renewables at speed, which requires large infrastructure and transmission lines.

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<v Speaker 2>How do you realistically do that quickly and still protect

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<v Speaker 2>these habitats.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, luckily, Australia's pretty blessed with a lot of space,

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<v Speaker 4>a lot of sun and a lot of wind, and

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<v Speaker 4>you can build the renewables in places that's good for nature.

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<v Speaker 4>And we've done the work and know that you can

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<v Speaker 4>build them in those places. Now that's going to involve

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<v Speaker 4>a require a bit of planning from the government about saying, well,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, you develop a X, you might want to

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<v Speaker 4>build it over here, but actually we're going to ask

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<v Speaker 4>you to move it to a different place to ensure

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<v Speaker 4>that it's not a threat to biodiversity. Again, I think

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<v Speaker 4>these are the challenges that are there with any project,

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<v Speaker 4>and the challenges that can be solved because of the

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<v Speaker 4>size of Australia and the amount of resources that are available.

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<v Speaker 4>Ultimate leaders as a scientific and a planning question, and

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<v Speaker 4>it shouldn't be driven by the dollars. It should be

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<v Speaker 4>driven by let's get the renewables built that let's do

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<v Speaker 4>it in aa that's good for nature, and we.

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<v Speaker 2>Firmly believe he can have both.

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<v Speaker 4>We're going to call out any kind of development, whatever

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<v Speaker 4>it is, if it poses a threat, but we bled

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<v Speaker 4>he can have both. And I hope that as this evolves,

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<v Speaker 4>as we see what kind of decisions get made by

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<v Speaker 4>the Minister and the state governments under this new legislation,

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<v Speaker 4>that that's what they think too.

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<v Speaker 2>Adam, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks a lot.

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<v Speaker 2>Also in the news, a federal inquiry into racism against

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<v Speaker 2>Aboriginal toorist rat older people will hold the public hearing

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<v Speaker 2>in Alice Springs today while brialda Japanese by Hardgraves I

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<v Speaker 2>suspected to give evidence about the death of his grandson,

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<v Speaker 2>Kuminji White, he died while being restrained by playing closed

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<v Speaker 2>police officers in an Alice Springs supermarket last year. The

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<v Speaker 2>inquiry will also hear from Robin Jepanyanka Granites, the grandfather

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<v Speaker 2>of five year old Kimenji Little Baby, who was found

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<v Speaker 2>dead near Alice Springs in April. During hearings in Darwin

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<v Speaker 2>this week, Aboriginal organizations called for stronger laws against hate

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<v Speaker 2>speech and for racial motivation to be treated as an

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<v Speaker 2>aggravating factor when courts sentenced file offenders. The inquiry is

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<v Speaker 2>due to report back to Parliament in September and the

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<v Speaker 2>Federal Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry has confirmed a

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<v Speaker 2>second petrol has tested positive for the H five strain

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<v Speaker 2>of bird flu in New South Wales. Testing by the

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<v Speaker 2>CSIIRA confirmed the virus in the bird found at Hawk's

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<v Speaker 2>Nest on the state's bit North Coast, twelve days after

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<v Speaker 2>another petrol found nearby tested positive. There have now been

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<v Speaker 2>fifteen confirmed or presumed positive detections of H five bird

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<v Speaker 2>flu in Australia, fourteen of which have been in margaretry birds.

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<v Speaker 2>Authority say there is still no evidence of mass deaths

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<v Speaker 2>and that the virus is not being detected in poultry

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<v Speaker 2>or agricultural production. Thanks for listening to seven AM. We'll

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<v Speaker 2>be back tomorrow