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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average persons never

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Speaker 1: exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys, staid,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. Today's guest

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Speaker 1: doctor Vince Hurley, is a friend and former colleague. We

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Speaker 1: first met when he was running the New South Wales

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Speaker 1: Police Detective's training course and I was lecturing on homicide investigation.

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Speaker 1: The thing that struck me about Vince from the start

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Speaker 1: was what a friendly person he was. But what I

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Speaker 1: really admired was how passionate he was about all things policing.

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Speaker 1: He truly believed in what he was doing and passed

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Speaker 1: that enthusiasm onto young detectives we were training. As I

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Speaker 1: got to know Vince better over the years, I realized

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Speaker 1: he not only had the street smarts of a good cop,

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Speaker 1: but he also had the ability to look at things

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Speaker 1: through an academic perspective. Armed with street smarts, academic qualifications

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Speaker 1: and passion makes Vince a person whose opinion counts when

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Speaker 1: talking all things law and order. Vince spent twenty nine

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Speaker 1: years as an operational police officer in the New South

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Speaker 1: Wales Police and retired as a detective superintendent when someone

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Speaker 1: literally threw him off the roof. Sorry Vince. He now,

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Speaker 1: amongst other things, lectures at Macquarie University Department of Security

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Speaker 1: Studies and Criminology, specializing in the contemporary role of the

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Speaker 1: police and policing within criminology theories. Now, if you don't

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Speaker 1: believe me about how passionate this guy is, have her

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Speaker 1: listened to this extract from a recent appearance on the

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Speaker 1: ABC's Q and A show. This is how Vince addresses

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Speaker 1: state and federal politicians on the issue of domestic violence.

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Speaker 2: How dare you? How dare you go into politics? In

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Speaker 2: an environment like this, when one woman is murdered every

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Speaker 2: four days and all you two can do is immediately

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Speaker 2: talk about politics. That is just disgraceful. Is it any

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Speaker 2: wonder frontline services aren't getting the money that they want.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Vince Hurley, welcome to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thank you very much. Gary.

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Speaker 1: Good to see you haven't lost your passion.

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Speaker 2: That deserved it. Ah, they just deserved it. And it

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Speaker 2: wasn't even a gotcha moment. I just walked straight into it.

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Speaker 1: It was.

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Speaker 2: I don't recognize it angry man anymore.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I watched it, and I think good on

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Speaker 1: your Vince. Yeah, don't sit on the don't sit on

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Speaker 1: the fence with this one. But there was something that

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Speaker 1: obviously stirred up the anger in you and the frustration

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Speaker 1: and Q and A. For people that don't watch the show,

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Speaker 1: it's usually a controversial topic that they'll have a forum

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Speaker 1: of people discussing it. They were talking about domestic violence

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Speaker 1: and murders there, and you're in the audience and they

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Speaker 1: asked for your opinion, and boy did you give give

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Speaker 1: them your opinion? But what was it about that forum

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Speaker 1: or that topic that set you off? What was it?

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Speaker 2: So I've been involved in domestic violence. My interest dated

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Speaker 2: in the police actually not long after we first met

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Speaker 2: down on the detective's course. I've been in that area

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Speaker 2: now for about thirty years. But of course, as you

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Speaker 2: would know, in the police, nothing's very well publicized outside

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Speaker 2: of the organization. So I was sitting in the audience,

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Speaker 2: and what happened was I was invited down by the producer.

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Speaker 2: And I've been on it before in twenty and twenty

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Speaker 2: two when they were first floating suggesting about the coercive

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Speaker 2: control laws. And how it goes is that you are

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Speaker 2: asked the producer says to you. Depends how the conversation

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Speaker 2: pans out, depend on whether you actually get asked a

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Speaker 2: question by the host, in this case Patricia Carvellus. So

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Speaker 2: I was sitting in the audience and where they started

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Speaker 2: bickering amongst themselves, the politicians, I sort of turned off

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Speaker 2: and I wasn't listening. And then Patricia Carvella said, now

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Speaker 2: we've got a criminologist in the audience, and I said,

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Speaker 2: bloody hell, that's me. Better switch one, because I just

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Speaker 2: turned off as soon as I started talking arguing. And

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Speaker 2: then she's turned to me and asked me the question

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Speaker 2: and then because of the you know, their minds that

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Speaker 2: polluted with the sewer of politics that they started talking

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Speaker 2: about politics. I just it triggered me. Had they not

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Speaker 2: done that, I probably wouldn't have reacted the way I did.

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Speaker 2: But certainly the way that they you know, all the

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Speaker 2: motherhood statements they said about about politics and being injured

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Speaker 2: women's issues. You know, they say some things are above politics.

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Speaker 2: You would think this would be the murder of women

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Speaker 2: would be one most definitely, but it's not for them.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't.

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Speaker 2: They didn't even give it a thought. A lot juveniles

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Speaker 2: in the sandpit arguing about who had the best policy.

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Speaker 2: And I think they failed to understand is we don't

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Speaker 2: care about their politics. We're just worried about the murder

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Speaker 2: of women, you know. And yeah, I was just gobsmacked.

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Speaker 2: And it was just that total absence of consciousness about

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Speaker 2: you know, one woman being murdered in every four days,

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Speaker 2: and I think we're up to about ninety now or

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Speaker 2: thereabouts this year, that you know, we're just but also

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Speaker 2: bidget McKenzie, who was a woman I thought would have

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Speaker 2: rushed to the sister's defense about women being murdered and

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Speaker 2: didn't even batter an eye lid about it. So it

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Speaker 2: was the dismissive perspective.

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Speaker 1: And that's what you wanted to get the cross that lives.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about people's lives here and people losing their lives.

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Speaker 1: A couple of other comments you've made in the show

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Speaker 1: in that in the discussion that and I'll just read

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I can do it with the

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Speaker 1: passion you did, But I went to twenty domestics in

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Speaker 1: one night when I was in the police, I held

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Speaker 1: a ten year old child in my arms who died

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Speaker 1: from the stabbing from her father. So those are comments

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Speaker 1: that you made during that show too. These are the

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Speaker 1: type of things when you see it, when you see

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Speaker 1: actually what happens, I can see why you get angry

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Speaker 1: at politicians playing a political game. It should be a

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Speaker 1: bipartisan approacess to stop this. And is that the type

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Speaker 1: of thing that was triggering for you?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, because you would know from our time in

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Speaker 2: the police where you were taken back to a specific

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Speaker 2: time or issue, and that ten year old child A

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Speaker 2: held in my arms. It was a Sunday morning. We

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Speaker 2: just happened to be driving past a black by name

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Speaker 2: of Mick down at Werrington. What I was attached to

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Speaker 2: Penrith detectives just happen to be driving down the street

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Speaker 2: and we've got to call that a possible homicide had

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Speaker 2: taken place and we're just lucky to be there up

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Speaker 2: and the dad had stabbed the child about well multiple times,

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Speaker 2: and rather than wait for the ambulance, I picked up

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Speaker 2: the child and went out to the front yard and

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Speaker 2: she took a last breadth lath breadth when I with her.

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Speaker 2: But it was that very visceral, very vivid moment that

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Speaker 2: takes you back to the reality of what it is,

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Speaker 2: because you know, I think those people politicians, they swung

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Speaker 2: around Parliament House and they're removed from the main parliament

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Speaker 2: in Australia, which is the Parliament of the street, they

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Speaker 2: lose contact with what the reality is. I'm not saying

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Speaker 2: they're all bad at all, but I think that they

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Speaker 2: lose touch with, you know, what it's like for the

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Speaker 2: average person in the street. And yep, understand that they

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Speaker 2: may never have that experience that you and I've had

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Speaker 2: dealing with victims and seeing multiple traumas, but that doesn't

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Speaker 2: mean that they should not have less compassion for the

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Speaker 2: general population.

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Speaker 1: And especially when they're in the position of power too.

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Speaker 1: The power comes responsibility and they should embrace that and

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Speaker 1: understand what they're dealing with. So, look, it got a reaction.

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Speaker 1: We're going to deep dive in and break that whole

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Speaker 1: situation down further. But last time we met was only

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Speaker 1: only a week or so ago, when I bumped into

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Speaker 1: the sixtieth anniversary for Rainbow Lodge. Yeah, it's not the

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Speaker 1: type of place. It's a Rainbow Lodge do outstanding work,

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Speaker 1: and it's not the type of place you expect to

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Speaker 1: see two x police officers because it's helping people who

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Speaker 1: have been released from jail and get their life back

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Speaker 1: in order and do some fantastic work. And it was

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Speaker 1: great to see a police officer there. But what an

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Speaker 1: impressive group of people look.

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Speaker 2: To have the Deputy Commissioner of Corrections there. That's the

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Speaker 2: state member for Housing I think it is, and I

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Speaker 2: can't remember if the local member was there, but as

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Speaker 2: you mentioned earlier, it was bipartisan. You know, we're there

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Speaker 2: for the cause for you know, trying to do something

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Speaker 2: about these violent men who come out of custody or

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Speaker 2: sentences or prison to try and help them back into

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Speaker 2: society to reduce domestic violence and hopefully hold them up

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Speaker 2: as some type of leader within their community. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: it is, And you rightly say, you know, twenty thirty

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Speaker 2: years ago, I would never have envigied myself going to

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Speaker 2: an organization like that, having been in the police. And

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Speaker 2: I think as you get older, you know, your views

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Speaker 2: and perspectives change.

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Speaker 1: Well, I know since I've left the police, so I

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Speaker 1: look at fighting crime in a different way. In Plolee,

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Speaker 1: it was sort of a narrow focus. The crime happens,

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Speaker 1: you enforce the law, You put people in custody. You

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Speaker 1: don't really consider what happens to them when they're in custody,

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Speaker 1: and you wait for the next next case to come along.

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Speaker 1: But people like Claude Robertson at Rainbow Lodge and hundreds

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Speaker 1: of people that we could mention that, I'm sure you've

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Speaker 1: crossed paths with how much difference they make in fighting crime.

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Speaker 1: You can't. And I know it's a saying that I've

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Speaker 1: heard you say often. You can't fix a problem through arrest. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's other ways of fighting crime, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, And I said that as I said Q

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Speaker 2: and A, you know the problem you just can't you

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Speaker 2: arrest your way out of it? And Claude and like

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Speaker 2: the thousands of NGOs around Australia, all in this area

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Speaker 2: trying to do the right thing, largely with lack of

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Speaker 2: government support. Now there and they're doing the job that

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Speaker 2: government should be taking at least a good portion of

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Speaker 2: responsibility and funding them for this particular role. But to

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Speaker 2: go to Rainbow Lodge and I'd never heard of it

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Speaker 2: until twelve months ago. To go there and have been

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Speaker 2: a number of times like yourself, and to sit and

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Speaker 2: listen to the people who are coming through the system

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Speaker 2: or have been in the system sometimes for decades, it

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Speaker 2: is Yeah, it's almost counterintuitive. You go, wow, you know

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Speaker 2: there is life beyond Mount Dat, Saint Mary's, Blacktown and Penrith.

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Speaker 2: When I was out there, and if I was out

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Speaker 2: there then and I had come across any of those individuals,

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Speaker 2: you and I particularly just arrest them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, just a rest them, you realize, And like,

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Speaker 1: how how powerful was the young bloke that spoke the

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Speaker 1: last one, Like you've got politicians, you've got the retired

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Speaker 1: judges speaking, and then this fellow that had been through

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Speaker 1: the through the system and he talked about what Rainbow

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Speaker 1: Lodge did to him and give him a sense of

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Speaker 1: purpose and direction in life. And it was inspiring.

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Speaker 2: It was And I'm actually I won't mention his name,

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Speaker 2: but I'm going to get him come and talk to

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Speaker 2: my students next year. I was blown away. So even

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Speaker 2: if it's just one person, that makes a difference. The

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Speaker 2: impact that he will have on his peers, and you know,

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Speaker 2: his life story is something that we will never understand

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Speaker 2: or experience, and he will be a fantastic father, just

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Speaker 2: like Claude, for the next generation. And it is really

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Speaker 2: it is inspiring. Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think with all that's happened, I consider myself fortunate

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Speaker 1: to see that side of fighting fighting crime from a

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Speaker 1: different perspective, about the gun without the handcuffs, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: they make such a difference. Now, tell us about before

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Speaker 1: we get into the academic Vince Early, and I've got

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Speaker 1: to say, doctor Vince Early, it's choking on the words.

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Speaker 2: But never believe everything you've read Gary before.

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Speaker 1: You decided to become smart. You're a cop, Why do

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Speaker 1: you join the cops? Look?

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Speaker 2: Actually I got a credit Mum and Dad for that.

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Speaker 2: They thought it suited my personality.

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Speaker 1: Knows what suits your personality.

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Speaker 2: Clearly there wasn't enough mental help supporting those early nineteen eighties.

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Speaker 1: Meta give him to the police.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, that's right. Plenty of mad people in there,

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Speaker 2: as we know, as I say, a double D, not

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Speaker 2: just mad mad. So they thought it suited my personality

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Speaker 2: variety of the day, and I never gave much thought

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Speaker 2: to it. You know, when you join, it was just exciting,

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Speaker 2: it was interesting. I never really had a career path

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Speaker 2: plotted out. I just drifted from enjoyment to enjoyment to enjoyment.

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Speaker 2: So hostygen negotiated undercovered drugs down the D's course where

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Speaker 2: I met you, and I must say in all sincerity,

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Speaker 2: and the viewers might be surprised to listen, but I

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Speaker 2: really appreciated all the years that you came down and

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Speaker 2: lectured on the Detective's course which I coordinated. There was

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Speaker 2: always hard to get police to come down, even in

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Speaker 2: service for their own people, but it was an experience

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Speaker 2: that I could never give them, so you you know,

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Speaker 2: over the years coming down, So you know, I hate

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Speaker 2: to publicly admit it. Thanks very much.

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Speaker 1: Just repeat that a little bit loud and a little

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Speaker 1: bit clearer. No, I look, I think, and that's what

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Speaker 1: and the people that went before me, the Russell Oxford

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Speaker 1: and Paul Magers, Paul Jacob and that used to fill

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Speaker 1: that role. And then passing that, passing that expertise down,

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Speaker 1: I think it's so important passing that lineage down, their training,

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Speaker 1: the things that you learned out on the streets. So

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Speaker 1: thank you for the privilege. I enjoyed that very much.

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Speaker 1: So it was good. Okay, getting back to the point,

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Speaker 1: getting back, getting back to getting back to the point.

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Speaker 1: What was the point I joined the police? Why did

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Speaker 1: you join the police? But hostage and negotiation that that's

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Speaker 1: an interesting field to work.

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Speaker 2: Oh, look, it was fascinating. I was there for eight years.

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Speaker 2: They didn't have any full time hostage negotiators then, but

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Speaker 2: they do now. But I would like to think that

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Speaker 2: once upon a time they're very selective as to who

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Speaker 2: they chose to be hostage negotiating.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know what you're saying without saying, but.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was fascinating. It was really fascinating. You know,

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Speaker 2: I went to a lot of people. Don't do a

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Speaker 2: lot of suicide intervention. You do a lot of people

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Speaker 2: who are taken in US, who are in strongholds who

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Speaker 2: are wanted for violent crimes, and of course psychiatric or

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Speaker 2: people undergoing psychotic episodes holding other people hostage, generally members

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Speaker 2: of their family. So that was yeah, that was just

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Speaker 2: an amazing experience. I was on SBS a few months

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Speaker 2: ago now about witness or mind matters. I think it

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Speaker 2: was called about the role of being in a shader

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Speaker 2: and how victims and victims and witnesses recall things under

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Speaker 2: times of stress. But certainly I remember there was a

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Speaker 2: story of we got called out to Danar Kouma and

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Speaker 2: there was an offender wanted for an armed hold up

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Speaker 2: and it was in our house, and it was in

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Speaker 2: the middle of nowhere, so there was no mobile phone coverage,

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Speaker 2: and we go down and the tactical operations units surround

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Speaker 2: the place at about six am, and then we had

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Speaker 2: this thing called the Ball of Death seth.

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Speaker 1: I'm glad we changed that name. The Ball of Death.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And it was literally just like a speaker, a

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Speaker 2: small pa speaker encased in metal and attached to it.

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Speaker 2: There was about, oh, maybe I don't know, fifty meters

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Speaker 2: of a wire and you could actually speak and it

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Speaker 2: would amplify for the for the speaker and because of

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Speaker 2: no mobive phone coverage and we didn't know the phone

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Speaker 2: number of the house, the t o U went in

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Speaker 2: about eight am and they smashed a window and they

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Speaker 2: tossed the ball of death in and we're hiding behind

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Speaker 2: a hedge, as you do, yes, as you did, And

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Speaker 2: then we turned on the sirehen. It waked the bloke

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Speaker 2: up and he was not happy. So we said, you know,

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Speaker 2: we are the police. We need you to come out.

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Speaker 2: And it was dead silence, and we're waiting for about

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Speaker 2: thirty seconds and he's grabbed it and he's thrown it

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Speaker 2: back through the window, through the top pane of the window,

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Speaker 2: which hadn't been smashed. He could have thrown it through

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Speaker 2: the bottom. Pain but stop, faint and we see the

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Speaker 2: ball of death and he'd cut the wire and come

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Speaker 2: hurtling across the lawn and rolled on the ground like

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Speaker 2: a ten pin bowling ball. And he yelled out, read

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Speaker 2: what I've got on the and f and I can't

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Speaker 2: mean what do you called it? And he gave me

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Speaker 2: he said why don't you know? He said, you blokes,

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Speaker 2: f off. I won't say what it was, but f off.

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Speaker 2: And we laughed. And then about ten or fifteen minutes later,

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Speaker 2: after you calm down, you got I hopped on the

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Speaker 2: paid I can't remember his name, his poplic Gary.

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Speaker 1: I said, oh, I did come out. You must have

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Speaker 1: been You did.

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Speaker 2: Come out, yeah, I said, Gary, we've got the place

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Speaker 2: around it. You're not going to go into where you wanted.

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Speaker 2: You said, okay, look, give me give me five or

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Speaker 2: ten minutes. And I'm looking at I was with Chris

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Speaker 2: at the time, and I said, what do you want

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Speaker 2: five or ten minutes for? And then somebody dawned upon us.

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Speaker 2: He wanted to give his partner a special home of

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Speaker 2: good goodbye, and he came out and it was fine.

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Speaker 1: It's bizarre things that go on that sieges I was

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Speaker 1: at the siege. You have the robot that we used

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Speaker 1: to send them with the Tactical Operations Unit, and we

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Speaker 1: had to carry the robot leopard crawling all the way

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Speaker 1: and carrying the carrying the robot which was quite heavy.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't carrying it. We get it all the way in,

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Speaker 1: we get back without being shot, and we're all happy.

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Speaker 1: But one of the tires fell up, so then we

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Speaker 1: had the leopard crawl all the back and carry the

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Speaker 1: rabot out fix its little tire and send it back in.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, they're serious situations. But yeah, hearing us laugh

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Speaker 1: about it, You've got to find the humor in these

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Speaker 1: situations because otherwise it's too tight. You're hanging on too tight. Policing.

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Speaker 1: You worked, you work some of the tough errors. You

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Speaker 1: worked out West and that you would have seen a

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Speaker 1: lot of crime. You became a became a detective, You

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Speaker 1: became involved in training of detectives, which I think is

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Speaker 1: absolutely crucial, and we'll talk a little bit more about

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Speaker 1: that later on. But you also decided to become a

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Speaker 1: bit somewhat of an academic. Run us through your qualifications

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Speaker 1: so we know who we're talking to.

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Speaker 2: So when I was in the police, I just had

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Speaker 2: I wasn't very good at school academically at all. I

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Speaker 2: mean on my late bloomer. So when I was in

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Speaker 2: the police, I decided to put myself through you. And

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Speaker 2: you say, when I was in the place, I got

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Speaker 2: a degree in psychology, a degree in criminology. Then I

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Speaker 2: went on and did my NBA Masters in Business Administration,

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Speaker 2: and then I went on and did my when I

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Speaker 2: was down at gulb and lecturing a university teaching and

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Speaker 2: learning a degree, and then I went on and did

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Speaker 2: emergency management. So when I actually that was just by luck.

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Speaker 2: And so I always found interesting. I wouldn't tell to

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Speaker 2: a nerd what people probably might disagree.

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Speaker 1: That's I won't say what's up said about that?

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Speaker 2: And so when I left. I left in two thousand

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Speaker 2: and ten or twenty eleven after some bad he's pushed

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Speaker 2: me off a roof at Saint Mary's. I was in.

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Speaker 1: GDS negatiations about it. Don't push me, oh stuff to you,

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Speaker 1: and they pushed you off a.

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Speaker 2: Roof talking about a loser.

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Speaker 1: People are listening, who you might get a sense of

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Speaker 1: I who pushed off the roof just shut up?

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Speaker 2: Ah. Anyway, that my colleague who had the blake, who

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Speaker 2: I was with at the time. It was a young

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Speaker 2: perbasery constable. It just happened to be there. He just

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Speaker 2: left the army and he was in the SAS and

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Speaker 2: he is as I'm laying on the ground with a

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Speaker 2: fractured skull and fractured leg. Literally, I'll get them by,

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Speaker 2: I'll get them so and next couple of seconds later,

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Speaker 2: a couple of minutes later, I hear his blood curdling scream.

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Speaker 2: He's obviously giving these blokes a bit of summary justice.

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Speaker 1: Well yeah, yeah, well they should take offense. You can't

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Speaker 1: throw Vince off the roof.

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Speaker 2: That's right, Yeah, that's too much giving concrete, I can

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Speaker 2: tell you that.

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Speaker 1: Well, look, despite the smile on my face, I'm sorry

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Speaker 1: to hear that's what ended your career. But train off

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Speaker 1: a roof. We've had a lot of people had different reasons.

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Speaker 1: Why did you leave the police roof? And lucky you

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Speaker 1: had your say, yeah, I know they might have jumped

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Speaker 1: on you after they threw off the roof. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: you've found your way into academia. Academia and you're lecturing criminologists.

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Speaker 1: Where are you lecturing at mcquarie Union.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, McQuary Union. So when I left and I was

393
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Speaker 2: recovering from my injuries, it was just by sheer luck

394
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Speaker 2: that this opportunity came up, this job. So I went

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Speaker 2: down and it was informal talk with the boss at

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Speaker 2: the UNI, in charge of the of the department, and

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Speaker 2: he said, look, if you want a job, it's there

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Speaker 2: for you have no one in policing. And I said, yeah,

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Speaker 2: give it to go. And they've been there fourteen years

400
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Speaker 2: now and absolutely love it. It's fantastic. The kids are excellent.

401
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:35,360
Speaker 2: None of them necessarily want to be in the police,

402
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:37,919
Speaker 2: so they want to go into things like Asia or

403
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:42,560
Speaker 2: asis or Department of Defense or Attorneys General or cyber

404
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,960
Speaker 2: or something like that. So I talk about to the kids,

405
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:47,760
Speaker 2: and I call them kids, but they're not. They're adults

406
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Speaker 2: about my experience. But also, you know, what is policing,

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Speaker 2: And when you think about it, it is how I

408
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Speaker 2: see the police is like they're referees in society. So

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Speaker 2: you know, so police are called upon to do all

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00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:04,359
Speaker 2: manner of things, as you know, and I'm sure the

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Speaker 2: listeners know. And then the police adjudicate on a situation

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Speaker 2: and they bring in their own personal experience, so being

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Speaker 2: in their own life experience, they listen to the views

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Speaker 2: of the victims the offender and look at the situation

415
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Speaker 2: and they make a judgment call. And sometimes a judgment

416
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,119
Speaker 2: call is good, sometimes it's not so good, and sometimes

417
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Speaker 2: it's horrendously bad when I make a catastrophic mistake for

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Speaker 2: no fall of their own. Sometimes, so I see the

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Speaker 2: police like a referee in society of trying to keep

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Speaker 2: society fairly harmonious. Not everyone as we are going to

421
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Speaker 2: agree with what the police do. And I often say

422
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Speaker 2: that the kids. You know, when I talk about mental

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Speaker 2: health and having been a negotiator, people look at things retrospectively,

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Speaker 2: and you don't have that luxury at the time of

425
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Speaker 2: looking at things retrospectively. You make a judgment call and

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Speaker 2: what you believe to be the best decision to be

427
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:57,720
Speaker 2: made in a situation. So to help them understand about

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Speaker 2: the policing, I often use the word that police are

429
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Speaker 2: like street corner psychiatrists because they deal with mental health,

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Speaker 2: drug and alcohol, gambling, of course, you know, domestic violence,

431
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Speaker 2: something I'm very passionate about, but all manner of crime.

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Speaker 2: And you know, the time pressure is put on police

433
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,200
Speaker 2: to deal with all these particular issues. They go from

434
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,639
Speaker 2: one job to another job to another job. And I

435
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:22,919
Speaker 2: tell the kids it's just like if you can imagine

436
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,920
Speaker 2: a pinball machine, the ball has been flipped all over

437
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 2: the place, and they've got to make these judgment calls.

438
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:30,840
Speaker 2: You know, you're going to a violent domestic and then

439
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,679
Speaker 2: another one comes on over the police radio and you go, oh,

440
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:35,960
Speaker 2: which one's more serious, and you pick to go to one,

441
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 2: and you don't know if that decision is right until

442
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 2: til afterwards. So I try to get I don't try

443
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 2: to change the student's point of view. I try to

444
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 2: get them to challenge it, to think about, well, what

445
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:51,240
Speaker 2: is policing in today's society actually like? And it's certainly

446
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:52,639
Speaker 2: not clear cut, as we both know.

447
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,080
Speaker 1: Well, I think the fact that you've got that lived

448
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 1: experience as a police officer, so you've got the street

449
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 1: smarts that come with play, but the fact that you've

450
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 1: drifted into lecturing and the academic side of it. It's

451
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 1: a good combination of skills that you can look at

452
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 1: it objectively because it's very easy to criticize the police

453
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 1: that they made a decision, but let's look at the

454
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 1: circumstances of the decision. Like you just said which domestic

455
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 1: to go to? Or why did you leave that job

456
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:21,440
Speaker 1: and go to that job? You're going to make these calls,

457
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 1: and invariably police work is adjudicated on six months twelve

458
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 1: months down the track in court by barristers being paid

459
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 1: a lot of money to make the police look stupid

460
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 1: on whatever decision, So you're virtually in a no win situation.

461
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 1: I would often say to people that get out of

462
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 1: the witness box and they've been cross examined and smashed

463
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 1: in the witness box and they gave but we didn't

464
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 1: do anything wrong. And you explain, well, it doesn't matter.

465
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 1: It does not matter. You are going to be criticized.

466
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:50,399
Speaker 1: That's the way the system is set up. In the

467
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 1: adversarial system, You're going to be attacked. And that's the

468
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,679
Speaker 1: way you're interest in domestic violence and getting back to

469
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:05,920
Speaker 1: your outburst things just you became like a YouTube sensation,

470
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,400
Speaker 1: didn't you after it? Everywhere I looked, there's look it was.

471
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 2: It was so just going back to it. So it

472
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 2: was my after I finished, you know, berating them to

473
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 2: a point, everything I said about reading those one thousand,

474
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,640
Speaker 2: three hundred and sixty two Corona inquires of twenty years

475
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 2: as correct. You know, all the all the information I

476
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 2: said was great. It was not a scripted response. It

477
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,880
Speaker 2: was something that was just you know, off the off

478
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 2: the top of my head. And had I know when

479
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:35,959
Speaker 2: I was going to be asked a question, I probably

480
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 2: would have had something better prepared. So far as berating

481
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 2: them was concerned, but I think that you know, when

482
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 2: it comes to domestic violence, and my response it was

483
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 2: more I've forgotten.

484
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:54,880
Speaker 1: The question was just what prompted that, yeah, the comments

485
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 1: that you made there, because clearly it was coming from

486
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,439
Speaker 1: a deep inside you. It was genuine yeah, And I

487
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 1: think that's why it got people's You know, if you

488
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 1: sat there and gave an academic response and all that,

489
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 1: you stripped it away and said, oh that you want

490
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 1: to know the truth. This is yeah.

491
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean seventeen million views across the socials, which

492
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,160
Speaker 2: was just standing much to the horror of my four

493
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 2: teenage kids.

494
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 1: Woul embarrassing.

495
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 2: Ah, my two daughters. I got a twenty year old

496
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,640
Speaker 2: daughter and a fifteen year old daughter. Of course they're

497
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,199
Speaker 2: taking claim that those views are theirs. And I got

498
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,640
Speaker 2: twin sons who are in the middle, and they really

499
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:35,199
Speaker 2: don't care less. Although, as I said recently when I

500
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,880
Speaker 2: gave a talk to an NGO, my twin sons, when

501
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 2: I were asked to mow the law and like I

502
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,160
Speaker 2: hid yesterday, they said, oh, how dare you? How dare

503
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,640
Speaker 2: You're a disgrace? It back come back at me. It's

504
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 2: treacherous kids, teenagers. But yeah, I think that had a

505
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 2: woman said it, it wouldn't have gained traction. But because I'm

506
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 2: an old, fat white male, I'm stereotypical a game traction.

507
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 2: I'm really glad for the cause, and I think the

508
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 2: big challenge we might go into this later, but I

509
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 2: think the big challenge over the next ten years in

510
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 2: this area is trying to get men to come into

511
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 2: the conversation to deal with how to rectify domestic violence.

512
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,160
Speaker 2: And the reason I say that is having spoken now

513
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 2: to thousands of people all year the NGO space, you know,

514
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 2: White Ribbon and places a lot, not so much Clawed

515
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 2: or Rainbow Lodge, but other places similar to that. You know,

516
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 2: they've had decades and decades of blood, sweat and tears

517
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 2: with our government support. And now because men are the problem,

518
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,479
Speaker 2: to ask men to come in and assist them, they're going, WHOA,

519
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 2: this is our space, you know, and we are victims

520
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 2: of domestic violence, so we now don't want men coming

521
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 2: in and telling us what to do. I don't think

522
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 2: it's the men telling them what to do. It's about

523
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:55,919
Speaker 2: the men supporting the women who are already in this

524
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 2: particular area. And I think the next ten years is

525
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,400
Speaker 2: going to be really important to try and get men

526
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 2: to assist organizations, non government organizations to try and reduce

527
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 2: domestic violence. Because as we know it's men that inflict

528
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,160
Speaker 2: the violence. It's men to destroy society. Do they start

529
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,919
Speaker 2: wars in the Middle East? You know, they trush society

530
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 2: with environment. So men are the problem. But now to

531
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 2: try and get men into the conversation or decent people

532
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 2: into the conversation, it's going to be really hard.

533
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,160
Speaker 1: And you've got all these women that have been working

534
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 1: hard for a very long time without any help and

535
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,719
Speaker 1: building it from ground up, and then okay, we're going

536
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 1: to get the men come in here. There's so many

537
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 1: issues too and to address with it. And I'm looking

538
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 1: at some of the points that flowed on from your

539
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 1: comments on Q and A and talking about addressing drug

540
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 1: and alcohol abuse, how that factors into domestic violence. So

541
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 1: it's not just it's not one dimensional. There's a lot

542
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 1: of factors that come into it that talk to me

543
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 1: about the impact of alcohol and drugs in domestic violence.

544
00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 2: So one of my areas have studied, I like, is

545
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 2: police shootings, and I've read the coronial reports and I've

546
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 2: got a spreadsheet at home. I'm going to write an

547
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 2: article one day when I get around it. I don't

548
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 2: know when that is. But when you look at the

549
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 2: fatal police shootings in Australia from twenty twelve to twenty ten,

550
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 2: or twenty twelve anyway to twenty twenty two. If you

551
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 2: look at the fatal police shootings that have occurred, ninety percent,

552
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 2: whether it be a domestic violence or whether at be

553
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 2: people with mental health, ninety percent of those people have

554
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 2: underlying historical, well developed drug and alcohol addiction problems, psychiatric problems.

555
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 2: So we talk about domestic violence. So if you looked

556
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 2: at the figures for domestic violence, like the Coronia Report

557
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 2: are reports I've read, if government spent more on the

558
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 2: drug and alcohol then a lot of the problems could

559
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 2: be could be solved because it is those fundamental drug

560
00:29:55,800 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 2: and alcohol issues that cause domestic violence. I does drugging

561
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 2: alcohol cause these problems. If you look at there's a

562
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,239
Speaker 2: thing called, believe it or not, the Misery Index, and

563
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 2: it's a measure of the state of the nation's welfare.

564
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 2: It looks at what's the word I'm looking for, looks

565
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 2: at economics, it looks at an unemployment then it puts

566
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 2: it on a graph and it's a credible graph. And

567
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 2: if you go back about thirty years and you looked

568
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:36,479
Speaker 2: at the misery index, and you're superimposed that over the

569
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 2: deaths and domestic violence. There is almost a one hundred

570
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 2: percent correlation between harsh economic times and spikes in domestic

571
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 2: violence in murders, I should.

572
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 1: Say, OK, so domestic violence related murders, yep, yep.

573
00:30:55,480 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 2: So based on what I've read anyway, Like, now, why

574
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 2: has there been so many women murdered because of unemployment,

575
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 2: because of interest rates going up, because of the cost

576
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 2: of living, because of lack of housing. And it can't

577
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 2: be over the last thirty years where it's spiked and

578
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 2: we're talking like, you know, you think it's probably have

579
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 2: earned about ten times over the last few decades. It

580
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 2: can't be coincidental that in harsh economic times more women

581
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 2: are murdered.

582
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: It makes sense. And you just talk economics, housing issues

583
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 1: and all that for relationships gone bad. Quite often people

584
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 1: are stuck within the relationship because economically that they can't

585
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 1: afford to separate. It can be as simple as that.

586
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 1: And then you've got this ticking time bomb. Yeah, yeah,

587
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 1: carrying on.

588
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, And not only that, you hear people say, I mean,

589
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 2: I've spoken to about three thousand school childrens across the

590
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 2: schools New South across Sydney and some of the kids say, well,

591
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 2: why doesn't the women have a bit of a cunning

592
00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 2: kit as we used to say, you know, you used

593
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 2: to put a bit of money. But the problem is

594
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 2: they aren't in the economic control of their finances.

595
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 1: That leads into the coersive control aspects of it.

596
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they can't even vulnerable. Yeah, even if they

597
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 2: wanted to leave, they can't because they don't have any

598
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 2: money to leave and going. The kids don't under like

599
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 2: the school kids I'm talking about now, I don't really

600
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 2: understand that that you know, that's an element of it.

601
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 2: So you know, that coercive control and the kids, you know,

602
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 2: trying to get them to understand, particularly girls, you know,

603
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 2: what are the subtleties as we know about coercive control.

604
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 2: And i'd say to that skilled children I talk to,

605
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 2: you know, in very simple terms, particular to the girls,

606
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 2: you know, if the relationship doesn't feel right, then it's

607
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 2: probably not good.

608
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 1: Good advice the advice. Yeah, but with that coersive control,

609
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 1: I think that's something that's really good changes where the

610
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 1: legislation has been implemented, because I think from policing and

611
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: we've talked a lot about coercive control on this podcast.

612
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 1: But with policing, we used to turn up at the domes.

613
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 1: Well there's no assault that's taken place. We didn't have

614
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 1: any powers to act on what's occurred. It's obvious what

615
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 1: was going to occur, but we didn't have the legislation

616
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 1: COURSI control. I think the introduction of it's great. I

617
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 1: think we're just going to make sure police are informed

618
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 1: about it and they how to look for the signs

619
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 1: of it, gather the evidence so the legislation can be

620
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 1: used to it's full of strength. Yeah.

621
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 2: I also think, as you would know with any new law,

622
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 2: it's going to take the police a while to adjust

623
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 2: to it and to be able to prove it in court,

624
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 2: and then on top of that then there's going to

625
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 2: be appeals because it's new law. So I think I

626
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 2: think the evolution of it will probably take probably five

627
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 2: maybe ten years before it becomes fairly normative. But we're

628
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 2: going to be, as you labor intentive to go back

629
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 2: and to pick up all the pieces to thread them

630
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 2: together to come up with to paint a picture. In Scotland,

631
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 2: the law there about coercia control, which is one of

632
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 2: the best in the world only needs three three pieces

633
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:08,399
Speaker 2: of information or three what's what I'm looking elements? Elements? Yeah, yeah,

634
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 2: to show that someone has been coercive, so they only

635
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 2: need three. In New South Wales, I don't think there's

636
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,280
Speaker 2: any specific number, but trying to piece it all together

637
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 2: and it's going to be you know, it is going

638
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 2: to be time consuming. SMSs and all the pictures and

639
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 2: the behavior of the individual.

640
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there's a lot to take in. It's gathering

641
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 1: its evidence as complex as a homicide investigation. I look

642
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 1: at it and that's wherever the police can embrace it,

643
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: understand it and have the resources to deal with it.

644
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 1: That's going to be a big thing. I'm looking at

645
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 1: that figures And you mentioned that based on the fact

646
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,800
Speaker 1: you've read one three hundred and sixty two coroners reports

647
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 1: in U Soth Wales over the last twenty years and

648
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 1: underfunding is a common element. First of all, that's a

649
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 1: lot of coroner's reports.

650
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 2: To reach and I never saw your name in one

651
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:54,719
Speaker 2: of them.

652
00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 1: I deny that allegation. That's a lot of reports to

653
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 1: read and what was the focus of that? What was

654
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 1: you're reading those reports and what did you learn from that?

655
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 2: The purpose I'm actually starting to read them years ago.

656
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:12,400
Speaker 2: Was to try and understand, well, actually, it's more from

657
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 2: a police shooting point of view, you know, why did

658
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,359
Speaker 2: the police end up shooting an individual? So that's how

659
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 2: that was the beginning point. It was never initially about

660
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 2: domestic violence per se. It was more our interest or

661
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:28,280
Speaker 2: my interest in you know what, why why do police

662
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 2: shoot someone? And you hear this phrase in academa, and

663
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 2: I'm always correcting my colleagues at work, the police use

664
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,800
Speaker 2: of fatal force. Police don't choose to use fatal force.

665
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,479
Speaker 2: The police shoot someone invariably to stop them doing something.

666
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 2: If they die a result of it, then that's unfortunate.

667
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:47,279
Speaker 2: But this term that they used in academia, you know,

668
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 2: police use of fatal force is a bit of this

669
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:55,439
Speaker 2: moment mis noma. Yeah, that's right. Academic, you wouldn't think so.

670
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 2: So it was about looking at the police shootings, but

671
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 2: it developed into about trying to get an understanding of

672
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:08,359
Speaker 2: the dynamics of domestic violence and mental health. Because when

673
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,320
Speaker 2: I talk to the students again and even at school

674
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 2: about police shootings and mental health, I'm getting off the

675
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 2: point slightly, but I'm trying to fill in time.

676
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,839
Speaker 1: For you events, I can guarantee you who we're going

677
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 1: to fill the time up I've just got. We're on

678
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 1: the ground floor. I can't frae you off.

679
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,280
Speaker 2: But when we talk about police shootings and mental health,

680
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 2: I say to the kids in class, you know, they say, oh, well,

681
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:37,800
Speaker 2: why didn't the police do this or why didn't the

682
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 2: police do that? After the event, and I said, well,

683
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 2: first of all, when you're arrived at the scene, you

684
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 2: don't know anything about the person. You don't even know

685
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,399
Speaker 2: their name. Sometimes as a negotiating didn't even know that. Well,

686
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 2: you might have known the name, but that was about it.

687
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 2: You didn't know if they had one or two mental

688
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 2: health issues, whether or diagnosed or undiagnosed. You didn't know

689
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 2: what medication they were on. You didn't know if they'd

690
00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 2: taken their medication the day before. You didn't know if

691
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 2: they took heart their medication. You didn't know if they

692
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 2: doubled up because they'd missed it the day before. You

693
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 2: didn't know if the medication they had taken was out

694
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 2: of date. Then if they had alcohol, what was the

695
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 2: impact chemically on the brain of you know, spirits or

696
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 2: beer or wine. And then in if they smoke the

697
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 2: Devil's let us marijuana. What's the impact upon that? And

698
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 2: then you, I say to the kids, and now you

699
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 2: expect me to know, You expect the police to know

700
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 2: within thirty seconds if someone is rational or not. When

701
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 2: you look at the world HAATH organizations for mental health,

702
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 2: it's something like who says, it's something like one in

703
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 2: every three purple in the Western world suffer some type

704
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 2: of mental health issues. So that means the three of

705
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,239
Speaker 2: us here, you're the one Gary.

706
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:47,240
Speaker 1: I'm looking around not necessarily let people. Let the listeners

707
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 1: form their own opinion. Who's got the mental health in

708
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:55,359
Speaker 1: I haven't been. I was just thrown under a bus.

709
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:58,320
Speaker 2: And that's going to dog you for the rest of

710
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 2: your life, poor bar.

711
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 1: Continue.

712
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 2: So yeah, so I can't even remember the question.

713
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 1: Now you just the reports and what you were finding

714
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 1: mental health And I'll chime in there with In my

715
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,720
Speaker 1: role as homicide inspector, I oversaw a lot of critical

716
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:20,839
Speaker 1: incident investigations where police have someone in cussy has been

717
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,279
Speaker 1: killed by police. So a lot of them and I'm

718
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,759
Speaker 1: just thinking anik daily, I'd say eighty percent of them

719
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 1: are involving mental health issues. There was some recommendations that

720
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 1: flowed on from a very sad case that I oversaw

721
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:39,360
Speaker 1: was the shooting of Courtney Topic. Oh yeah, so I was.

722
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 1: I was an officer in charge of the critical investigation there.

723
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 1: That was the poor girl coming out with a mental

724
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 1: health issue, carrying a knife but also a smoothie from

725
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 1: Hungry Jacks or whatever, walking on the grass verge and

726
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 1: shot and killed. And it still haunts me to this

727
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 1: day what happened to there. And I know her parents well.

728
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:03,959
Speaker 1: I stay in touch with their parents and the things

729
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 1: that they struggle with. From that. On the back of

730
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 1: the coronial inquiry, there was a lot of recommendations about

731
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,879
Speaker 1: better training with police mental health, so teaching police how

732
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: to deal with someone that's suffering mental health de escalating

733
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 1: instead of escalating, because if we go strictly by the

734
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 1: rule book, you're dealing with someone that's not thinking rationally

735
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 1: and they're not going to always respond to your commands.

736
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and just on that case, I remember and correct

737
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 2: me if I'm wrong. I think that when I read it,

738
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 2: the coroner said that it was highly unlikely whatever the

739
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 2: police was saying to us, she did not couldn't comprehend

740
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 2: exactly exactly so again when I say to the kids,

741
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 2: just because the police are talking to as you know,

742
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 2: talking to them, doesn't necessarily they actually can comprehend and

743
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 2: hear what the police are saying. And that was a tragic,

744
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 2: absolutely tragic.

745
00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was horrendous, And like I hope and as

746
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 1: I said, a lot of recommendations came from it. I'm

747
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: speaking to Courtney's parents recently, and I don't think all

748
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 1: the recommendations have been implemented, but it's certainly something that

749
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 1: we need to upskill the police on. And like it's

750
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:18,239
Speaker 1: easy to blame the police because they're the ones that

751
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 1: get blamed, but we need the proper funding for this

752
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 1: type of training as well, don't we. And to have

753
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,359
Speaker 1: someone with mental health capabilities, Like if you get called

754
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 1: to a situation like that, have someone on call with

755
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 1: mental health training that can come and assess the situation.

756
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, well they've got I think the PACER program I

757
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 2: think might've been in Victoria. I can't remember. Is it

758
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 2: in Victoria? Do you know? I'm not sure any but

759
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,799
Speaker 2: one thing that I've read about it and even done

760
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 2: a bit of academic research in it, and something that

761
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 2: I struggle with with that particular model is that the

762
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 2: police and MBOs. A nurse gets called to the mental

763
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,239
Speaker 2: health episode, but in any event, the police have to

764
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 2: be the first ones or variably go in first, because

765
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 2: they can't relinquish their responsibility to not protect the nurse

766
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:09,840
Speaker 2: or the ambo or whatever.

767
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 1: That's a difficult situation, isn't it so?

768
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 2: And then again I could be wrong, but having read

769
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:20,439
Speaker 2: a couple of cases, there has been some reluctance by

770
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 2: say the ambos outderstandably say, well, the nurses or the

771
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 2: mental health worker to actually go in to the premises

772
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 2: because their life could be put in jeopardy. So the

773
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:35,399
Speaker 2: situation really in some respects unless that person is really compliant,

774
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:40,240
Speaker 2: then that model doesn't necessarily work in every situation because

775
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 2: the police can't put someone else's life in danger.

776
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:47,799
Speaker 1: It always falls back on the police. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

777
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 1: it's a difficult situation. Looking at domestic violence, and forty

778
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 1: three percent of cases involve current or historic domestic violence

779
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 1: or the when we're talking about women killed by an

780
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 1: intimate male partner, so forty three percent of cases involve

781
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 1: a current or historic domestic violence or so breaking that

782
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,360
Speaker 1: down then we won't talk academic, will talk just a

783
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 1: common type talk. Basically, what we're saying here is that

784
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:17,320
Speaker 1: forty three percent, So almost half of the murders domestic murders.

785
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:21,240
Speaker 1: There's a history of domestic violence, a history or a current.

786
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 1: So where are we failing there? It's almost like red flag,

787
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 1: red flag yep.

788
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 2: Okay, So that's a good, good point, and I thought

789
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:30,880
Speaker 2: i'd say that for the viewer's sake. That's a great point. Gary.

790
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 1: Thanks means you're still helping me. You let me think

791
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:37,880
Speaker 1: I was lecturing down on the detective course for all

792
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 1: those years.

793
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 2: So that that forty three percent. So when students ask me,

794
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:47,719
Speaker 2: I'm talking about school kids now that I talk to,

795
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 2: they say, why doesn't she leave? And as a negotiator,

796
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:54,759
Speaker 2: you not learn it because it has to be someone

797
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:57,760
Speaker 2: innate to you to be negotiator. But everyone has different

798
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 2: levels of rock bottom emotionally before they can make a

799
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 2: decision to leave. So Vince Hurley is in a relationship

800
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 2: with Gary. Vince Hurley decides to leave the relationship, Emily,

801
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 2: can you just remove the knife from the studio? Vince

802
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 2: Hurley decides to leave. But when he makes that decision

803
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 2: to leave, in actual fact, he might not leave for

804
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:27,760
Speaker 2: six weeks, then when he decides to leave, he leaves,

805
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 2: and then the cord the three or four days afterwards.

806
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 2: This is the most important thing, But then they have

807
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 2: to readjust to that life outside of a relationship. So

808
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 2: when people say where are we going wrong? Sometimes I

809
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 2: think it's really hard to pinpoint a specific thing because

810
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 2: everyone's going to be different in the way in which

811
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 2: they make a decision to leave a relationship. I've got

812
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:56,399
Speaker 2: a friend who highly intelligent, well paid job, has been

813
00:43:56,560 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 2: in a I wouldn't say a physically violent relationship but

814
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 2: certainly a coercive relationship for ten years and she knows it.

815
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:06,920
Speaker 2: And all I can do as a friend of Nona

816
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 2: now for twenty years is just be there to support her.

817
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,959
Speaker 2: But she has to make that decision to leave now.

818
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 2: She knows that getting back to the point of that

819
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 2: forty three or nearly half, she knows that at some

820
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:23,439
Speaker 2: stage it could escalate, but she either she doesn't want

821
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 2: to leave or she can't bring herself to leave. So

822
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 2: I think there'll always be a percentage of people, unfortunately,

823
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 2: who for whatever reason, whether it's for the sake of

824
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 2: the kids or because they don't have any support outside,

825
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 2: or they don't have the emotional strength to do it.

826
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 2: There will always be subject to this tragic circumstances of

827
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 2: being murdered. So that forty three percent I can understand now,

828
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:51,359
Speaker 2: having read the coronial reports and look at this academically,

829
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 2: that some people just will never leave a relationship sometimes

830
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:58,880
Speaker 2: also because they are so dependent on the individual, because

831
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 2: of the coerce you control. They have no choice, you know,

832
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:05,360
Speaker 2: they where do they go? Particularly people from Middle Eastern

833
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:09,479
Speaker 2: cultures or East Southeast support me. No, they don't, they don't,

834
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 2: and some of them see it as a bit normative

835
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 2: that the male is the dominant figure in the relationship.

836
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 2: Mind blowing, just mind blowing.

837
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 1: So at that point, if we know that domestic violence

838
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 1: is a precursor to looking at the horror amount of

839
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 1: women that are killed by their partners, have we got

840
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:34,799
Speaker 1: to take a stronger action of the court's got to

841
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,240
Speaker 1: recognize the significance of the offense.

842
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think because when we were in we had

843
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:42,640
Speaker 2: prior arrest policy as just mentioned on Q and A,

844
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:45,359
Speaker 2: and we can't arrest our way out of it. It's

845
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 2: long gone. The horse has bolted, and I think that

846
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 2: sometimes magistrates' hands abound. You've got limited options, not like

847
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:56,840
Speaker 2: the states where you see these really sometimes fantastic penalties

848
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:01,279
Speaker 2: or results where they may can offending say go and

849
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 2: work in McDonald's if it's yeah, something like.

850
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:06,320
Speaker 1: That, a little bit more creative, Yeah yeah.

851
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. So what was the question?

852
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 1: I'll go up a team academics. Have we got it?

853
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 1: Have we got to focus more on the offense which

854
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:21,359
Speaker 1: is a precursor the domestic violence because we know it's

855
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,120
Speaker 1: a red flag, it's an indicator that this could escalate.

856
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 1: What have we got to do from a court's point

857
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:31,279
Speaker 1: of view to identify the Okay, Vince has been bought

858
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 1: before the courts now three times for domestic violence. This

859
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:37,239
Speaker 1: is not going to end well, So how do we

860
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:38,279
Speaker 1: deal with it at that level?

861
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 2: I mean, we've got electronic brace ankle bracelets which will

862
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:46,719
Speaker 2: come to I'm sure I think that I going back

863
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 2: to Claude robertson rain By Lodge, big fan of that

864
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:53,360
Speaker 2: I would like to see. And this is just my

865
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:56,399
Speaker 2: point of view. Currently we take the women, The women

866
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 2: have to leave the relationship and go to a refuge.

867
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 2: I don't know why men who have got a track

868
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 2: record of it two or three, but say just use

869
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 2: three as a marker why the men can't be removed

870
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 2: from that house and sent to play similar to Rainbow Lodge,

871
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 2: where the men are removed, not the family, so the

872
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 2: kids don't have to change school. As we've heard from

873
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:22,719
Speaker 2: Claude in the past, that they can still go and work,

874
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 2: earn a living and hopefully give money to the family.

875
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 2: So removing the men and putting them through a program

876
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 2: pay for six months, that has to be better than

877
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 2: what we've got at the moment where the women are

878
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 2: primarily removed. The only problem with that I see is

879
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:40,360
Speaker 2: that putting aside the current housing crisis is that some

880
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:45,280
Speaker 2: women organizations would say, well, women refuges are more important.

881
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 2: So I think, you know, maybe over the over the

882
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 2: next decade, houses are dedicated to men to try and

883
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 2: address their anger management. I've also spoken to a number

884
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:59,239
Speaker 2: of politicians. Everyone goes to Huff and Puff classes when

885
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:01,520
Speaker 2: their wives are it's pregnant. I don't know why men

886
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:06,719
Speaker 2: can't then and there or similar program be set up

887
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 2: at a community center of an evening for men who

888
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 2: have been identified as having three domestic violence. The court

889
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 2: goes right, You're off to anger management class similar to

890
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 2: Huff and puff.

891
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

892
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 2: Not at the same time, obviously you need to go

893
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 2: and address this. And if you breach this, then X,

894
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:24,359
Speaker 2: Y and Z what happened to you? Well?

895
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:27,759
Speaker 1: See, I think that's an important point because when yeah,

896
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:31,799
Speaker 1: you speak so passionately about defending women's rights and that,

897
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 1: and there's no argument in this room, and I don't

898
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 1: think any fair minded person would see it any other way.

899
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:40,880
Speaker 1: The statistics speak for themselves what happens to women, and

900
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:44,719
Speaker 1: men are the perpetrators. But the fixer problem. We can't

901
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:47,399
Speaker 1: arrest our way out of it because we try that

902
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 1: and just it doesn't work. So I think this is interesting,

903
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:54,239
Speaker 1: and this is where you're looking at it, not just

904
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 1: from the hard line policing point of view, but how

905
00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:59,319
Speaker 1: do we fix a problem. We've got to fix the men.

906
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:01,840
Speaker 1: How do you fix the men? And we've got to

907
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 1: get in their heads that it's not acceptable. Yeah, yeah,

908
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 1: make them own it, because if they don't own it.

909
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:13,839
Speaker 1: I did in that Breaking Badness series spent some time

910
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 1: in the maximum security prison. I was talking to inmates

911
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 1: in there about people in for domestic violence. And someone

912
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 1: may made a point and it's just from the inmates point,

913
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 1: but I think it's relevant. Because they're in prison, saying

914
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 1: if you put blokes in here for domestic violence situations,

915
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 1: because that just came up in conversation. You've got blokes

916
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:39,880
Speaker 1: going in the prison. They're probably sharing a cell with

917
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:42,479
Speaker 1: someone else who's in a prison, and they're probably both

918
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 1: sitting there thinking that bitch causes blah blah, and they're

919
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:48,840
Speaker 1: whipping themselves up into a frenzy. They've served their time,

920
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:51,839
Speaker 1: they get released. They haven't come out better people. They've

921
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 1: just come out angry. So we need to address it

922
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 1: in that area as well.

923
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:58,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you're right. You know, they what's them? They cement,

924
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:01,719
Speaker 2: you know, they build this anger within them.

925
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 1: And they because they won't accept their own responsibilities for

926
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 1: the dickead zeb and they're blaming their partner for this

927
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:10,240
Speaker 1: is why I'm in here. They're just coming out probably

928
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:13,759
Speaker 1: more angrier. So we do need to work on that. Yeah.

929
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:16,359
Speaker 2: I think when I talk to the school kids and

930
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 2: even the students in class, I also never use about

931
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 2: domestic violence. And I would say eighty percent of it.

932
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 2: And I'm talking at prime are not primary school, high

933
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:27,640
Speaker 2: school from year ten to twelve, So we're looking at

934
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:31,000
Speaker 2: what fifteen, sixteen to eighteen and then the UNI students,

935
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:34,759
Speaker 2: most of them frame domestic violence. They focus on the

936
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:37,880
Speaker 2: word domestic. They don't see it just straight out violence.

937
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 1: So the language.

938
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, so language is important, I think, and this is

939
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:46,320
Speaker 2: just again vent early talking that almost the word domestic

940
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:50,759
Speaker 2: needs to be removed from domestic violence because for the

941
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:53,960
Speaker 2: young kids, and this is the next generation, we need

942
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:56,799
Speaker 2: them to focus on the violence against the woman. It's

943
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 2: not a domestic setting. They don't see a domestic argument

944
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:02,480
Speaker 2: in a shopping center because it's not within a home.

945
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:04,560
Speaker 2: They don't see that the footy. They don't see it

946
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:07,560
Speaker 2: domestic at a footy. Sorry, And they don't see it

947
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 2: as just walking down the street when they're arguing. They

948
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:12,319
Speaker 2: only see domestic violence within the setting of the home.

949
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:14,160
Speaker 2: So we want to get through to the young people

950
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:17,279
Speaker 2: about violence against women. It's just straight out violent against women.

951
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:20,080
Speaker 1: I do get what you're saying there, because the domestic

952
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:22,440
Speaker 1: you stand back and you think, oh, well, there's always

953
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 1: two sides of the situation. So you've softened it right

954
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:28,800
Speaker 1: right from the start. Yeah, violence against women, because no

955
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 1: one wants to where that Like people go, oh, it

956
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:33,880
Speaker 1: was a domestic situation, that was just a lover's tiff,

957
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 1: that type of thing. They can hide behind that, Yeah,

958
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 1: but violence against women not this similar to the one

959
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:42,399
Speaker 1: punch turned in the commentary became the coward's punch.

960
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:44,280
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, Yeah, exactly.

961
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:46,920
Speaker 1: And the difference difference that makes. But it is about

962
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:50,640
Speaker 1: changing the mindset, is yeah, because it's just gone on

963
00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 1: too long and we need to address it. Do you

964
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 1: think the government's funding all these things we talk about

965
00:51:57,239 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 1: is part of it? We just haven't got enough money, yeah,

966
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:02,399
Speaker 1: or the government claim we haven't got enough money.

967
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. You know. Earlier I was talking about the misery

968
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:08,719
Speaker 2: index and then the spike in domestic violence homicides over

969
00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 2: the last thirty years. If you then go and look

970
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:13,479
Speaker 2: at the state and federal government and I'm talking about

971
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:16,400
Speaker 2: New South Wales at the moment. State, if you look

972
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:21,400
Speaker 2: at their funding, their funding always it comes after a spike, okay,

973
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 2: is never proactive. So when Anthony Albanizi earlier this year

974
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:30,400
Speaker 2: gave nine hundred and it might have been twenty five

975
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:34,160
Speaker 2: million dollars for domestic violence, now, first of all, that's

976
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:38,680
Speaker 2: commonwealth things, so the state's a bit. The state can

977
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:40,520
Speaker 2: only take some of it and implement it at a

978
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:43,840
Speaker 2: state level. But when I read his press release and

979
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:47,280
Speaker 2: then when I heard him talking on TV that money

980
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:50,320
Speaker 2: he talks about generational change, and then the press release

981
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:54,440
Speaker 2: and in his transcript of the interview, I think I

982
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:58,360
Speaker 2: read about thirteen times the word generational change. But the

983
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:02,399
Speaker 2: funding was only for five years. Bloody politicians, how can

984
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:05,320
Speaker 2: it be? The last time I checked the McCorry dictionary,

985
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:07,760
Speaker 2: a generation wasn't six years, it was twenty years.

986
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 1: Or they're just short little.

987
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:16,760
Speaker 2: So they just irritate and it's wrong, you know, twenty

988
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 2: well even I mean, I'm not just saying that the

989
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 2: nine hundred million or whatever it is is not good.

990
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:24,600
Speaker 2: It's fantastic. But and do you know why I think

991
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:27,560
Speaker 2: this has been cynical? Why it's only six years or

992
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 2: five years?

993
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:30,000
Speaker 1: Election term, yep.

994
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:32,839
Speaker 2: Election cycle. So I think he'll anticipate winning the next

995
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:36,960
Speaker 2: election and the funding runs out just before the election

996
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:40,719
Speaker 2: after that, so if he doesn't get re elected, the

997
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:43,640
Speaker 2: money won't be spent, or if he thinks he's got

998
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:46,120
Speaker 2: a good chance of being re elected, he'll announce more funding.

999
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:51,359
Speaker 1: It's a cynical view, but when you look at politics, yeah,

1000
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:54,759
Speaker 1: they put themselves out there so were allowed to ask

1001
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:55,240
Speaker 1: the question.

1002
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 2: I mean looks. Take Bridget McKenzie on Q and A.

1003
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:01,319
Speaker 2: She had that colored spread shed pork barreling of the

1004
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 2: electorate years a couple of years ago. They funded that

1005
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:06,839
Speaker 2: shooting range or gallery down it. They might have been

1006
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:11,000
Speaker 2: waggle wogger. So they're happy to spend money on things

1007
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:13,759
Speaker 2: for them, their own personal interests or vested interest to

1008
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 2: win an election. But when it comes to funding domestic

1009
00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 2: violence or mental health, or drugs and alcohol, they do

1010
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:24,440
Speaker 2: not They do not have enough funding. If you look

1011
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 2: at a graph, and even by not coincidence out of curiosity,

1012
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:30,880
Speaker 2: I used AI also for this.

1013
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:35,840
Speaker 1: I asked it. Yeah, it's amazing, scary.

1014
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:38,919
Speaker 2: The students you said all the time, they'd go, god,

1015
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:40,400
Speaker 2: I'm a big fan of it.

1016
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:43,440
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well we've got to embrace like I really and

1017
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 1: I'm coming crashing into the modern technology, but you've got

1018
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:48,560
Speaker 1: to embrace it. Ah.

1019
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:51,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, it's it's fantastic, but it's it's a resource.

1020
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:54,239
Speaker 1: It's a resource that is should use.

1021
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:56,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if we had another hour, I talk about that,

1022
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:57,759
Speaker 2: by the way, because I talk about it, well, we.

1023
00:54:57,719 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 1: Do have another hour. In part if I don't throw

1024
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:03,360
Speaker 1: you off the roof beforehand. Damn it, we're on the

1025
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:07,279
Speaker 1: ground floor. But sorry, we're off track because I do

1026
00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:10,239
Speaker 1: want to talk about AI and investigations because I think

1027
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:13,439
Speaker 1: it's going to change change the landscape in a big way.

1028
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:18,000
Speaker 1: But yeah, the funding and it always worries me. I'm

1029
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:21,200
Speaker 1: talking state elections here where if it's there a law

1030
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 1: and order issue, they go, Okay, we're going to increase

1031
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:26,880
Speaker 1: the police. You and I know that it's not about

1032
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 1: the quantity of police. It's about the quality of p

1033
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:33,239
Speaker 1: and the training they get. And you see spikes in

1034
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:36,840
Speaker 1: the police increase. But when you stay in the police

1035
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:39,080
Speaker 1: long enough, you know when that intake of people that

1036
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:42,239
Speaker 1: were initially rejected from the police have now been accepted. Yes,

1037
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 1: how problematic that can become in an organization working with

1038
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:46,120
Speaker 1: those people.

1039
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:49,920
Speaker 2: And even when you get even if there was sufficient police,

1040
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:52,080
Speaker 2: and there's not at the moment. But if you took

1041
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 2: when I joined, and probably you, for the first.

1042
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:58,040
Speaker 1: Two years, I was hopeless, you're blind.

1043
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:02,200
Speaker 2: So really, the productivity that Vince Hurley produced in the

1044
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:04,640
Speaker 2: first two maybe even three years as a basally comfortable

1045
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:09,160
Speaker 2: amount drew it was nothing. So I didn't have any

1046
00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:13,600
Speaker 2: occupational maturity. So even if I went in now, for example, Yeah,

1047
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:17,360
Speaker 2: I'd have life experience, but I'd still be wouldn't be

1048
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:20,279
Speaker 2: that productive because I'm in a new area of work

1049
00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:24,080
Speaker 2: I wasn't familiar with. So productivity for the police is

1050
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:27,560
Speaker 2: virtually is not a great in the first couple of years.

1051
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:29,239
Speaker 2: So even if you do have the numbers, and they

1052
00:56:29,239 --> 00:56:30,920
Speaker 2: certainly don't have the numbers at the moment, no.

1053
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:34,360
Speaker 1: And we'll talk about that because I think it's really

1054
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:37,400
Speaker 1: at the at the critical point. At the risk of

1055
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:40,399
Speaker 1: being controversial, I don't know if just increasing everyone's pay

1056
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:44,200
Speaker 1: by thirty is the right move, But we'll we'll talk

1057
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:50,080
Speaker 1: talk about that. That that were rejoining, I'd love to

1058
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:53,680
Speaker 1: see you back down in the academy marching. You would

1059
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:56,279
Speaker 1: have got into trouble. Okay, well, we'll be back for

1060
00:56:56,760 --> 00:56:59,279
Speaker 1: part two shortly, if I don't pray Vince off the

1061
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:03,960
Speaker 1: ground floor. But I look in all jokes aside, and

1062
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:06,680
Speaker 1: we're making light of situations. But what we're talking here

1063
00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:10,480
Speaker 1: is about stuff that we're both passionate about. And you've

1064
00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:14,320
Speaker 1: got that wealth of knowledge. You've got your little smarty

1065
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:17,320
Speaker 1: academic stuff, but you've got the streets smarts as well,

1066
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:19,560
Speaker 1: and combining it so there's so many more things I

1067
00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:21,479
Speaker 1: want to speak to you about when we come back

1068
00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:22,520
Speaker 1: for part two.

1069
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:24,280
Speaker 2: Can't wait. Thanks mate, Cheers,