1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:03,960 Speaker 1: One year ago we were voting in the Voice referendum. 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:07,240 Speaker 1: Today is that anniversary. There's a book out called People Power, 3 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: How Australian Referendums Are Lost, and one written by George 4 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 1: Williams and David Hume, George Williams's Vice chancellor Western Sydney 5 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: Union and a leading constitutional lawyer. And he joins me now, 6 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: Vice Chancellor, good morning. 7 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 2: Good morning, thank you, and George will. 8 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: Do fine, okay, George, excellent. Now we have a history 9 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 1: of referendums in this country of which very few have succeeded. 10 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 2: Why is that, And the most obvious answer is because 11 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:39,840 Speaker 2: people have repeatedly voted no. And in fact they haven't 12 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 2: voted yet in anywhere ferendum since nineteen seventy seven, so 13 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 2: it's a long time, nearly half a century. And that's 14 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 2: very true in South Australia for example, where again South 15 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 2: Australians have repeatedly voted no. And what we've had in 16 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 2: a half century is poplosals have been put by politicians. 17 00:00:57,400 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 2: They've not been the ones people have been prepared to support. 18 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 2: And well, I think we've never learned the lessons of that. 19 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 2: It's been a combination of mismanagement and perhaps the ideas 20 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 2: that weren't popular enough. And until we learn from that, 21 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 2: we're probably going to continue to face more no votes. 22 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: Okay, So now is the process a problem for governments 23 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: in majority vote and majority of states? 24 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:20,320 Speaker 2: I mean it's hard. Yes, though you'd have to say 25 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,759 Speaker 2: the majority of states issue hasn't been the decisive factor 26 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 2: because mostly all states are voted no. And in fact, 27 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 2: it's been decades since even one state has voted yes 28 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:32,960 Speaker 2: in a referendum, and you need four out of six 29 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 2: and the national majority. And what that shows again and 30 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 2: the Voice is an example, but the Republic, and going 31 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 2: back to nineteen eighty eight, is that across the country 32 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 2: people aren't liking the proposals being put and so in 33 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 2: the end it's less about the state majority and more 34 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 2: how do we win these how do we put different proposals? 35 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 2: And what's interesting is when you look at the states 36 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 2: and South Australia for example, where state referendums have been held, 37 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 2: they're much more likely to pass. So sixty percent of 38 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 2: referendums just held by South Australian governments have passed. So 39 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 2: why are people voting yes for state referendums? But no 40 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,639 Speaker 2: for national referendums. It's a problem we need to. 41 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: Fix local issues. Is that perhaps the reason I think 42 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: our last one here was and we had one on 43 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,239 Speaker 1: daylight savings, didn't we In South Australia. I think we did. 44 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a common one, liquor licensing around the country. 45 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:23,799 Speaker 2: There has been and I think a lot of it 46 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 2: is because the states have tended to put more practical 47 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:29,959 Speaker 2: proposals that people are more keen to vote yes too. 48 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 2: They think it's going to improve their lives. And if 49 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 2: you look at the big recent referendums at the federal 50 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 2: level over the past quarter of a century, it's the 51 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 2: republic and the voice really important issues. But it's different 52 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 2: to something that's more practical and it's easy to marshal opposition. 53 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 2: And I think it's different types of things being put 54 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 2: at the different levels. 55 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 1: How many pleversites have we had in the country, certainly 56 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 1: the same sex marriage. I mean, that's the only one 57 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: I can recall in my voting lifetime. 58 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, you've got to go back a bit further, in fact, 59 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 2: a long way. For the first ones. The first two 60 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:08,359 Speaker 2: we had were during World War One on conscription and 61 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 2: politicians couldn't get the numbers in parliament. They asked Australians, 62 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 2: should we mandate people serving on the front Australian said 63 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 2: no twice against the wishes of the Prime Minister of 64 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 2: the day. And then the next one was decades later, 65 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy seven, we voted on what our national 66 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 2: anthem should be and that's how we got Australia Advanced, 67 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 2: Australia Fair. And then of course the same sex marriage 68 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 2: Flever site and more recently, and those clever sites are 69 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 2: different to referendums. They're just like big advisory opinion polls. 70 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 2: They're not binding, testing the mood, whereas a referendum is 71 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 2: about changing the constitution and the law. 72 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, all right, So we've certainly the plever site, 73 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: the same sex one. Well, that was only a handful 74 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: of years ago, what probably eight eight already, I dare say. 75 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 2: Anyway, it's going quickly and decisive in the end, because 76 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 2: it broke the log jam, and of course we had 77 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 2: a coalition government. They divided themselves, they put it to 78 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 2: the people. The people overwhelmingly voted yes the same sex marriage, 79 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 2: and then it was legislated by Parliament and response. 80 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: And there we went. The conscription. One that would have 81 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: been Billy Hughes, wouldn't it both times? 82 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:19,039 Speaker 2: Yes? Yes, And he really wanted conscription and couldn't get 83 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 2: it through parliament and felt that if the people supported it, 84 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 2: Parliament would have to cave in. And in the end 85 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 2: the people surprised him and they voted no. Even troops 86 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 2: on the front voted no. So it just shows that 87 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 2: these things can be powerful, but not always in the 88 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 2: way intended. 89 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 1: Indeed, troops at the front would have been saying, please 90 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 1: let us come home. By that stage, I reckon when 91 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: stated experience. 92 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 2: Or equally thinking I can't subject anyone else in this 93 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,719 Speaker 2: let alone someone who desperately doesn't want to be there. 94 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:49,159 Speaker 2: And also do you really want someone fighting beside you 95 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 2: who's been conscripted as opposed to volunteered? Yeah? 96 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: Absolutely. Why did the voice referendum fail? 97 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:02,599 Speaker 2: And I think obviously the most basic issue is that 98 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 2: across the country people didn't feel that this was the 99 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 2: right change to make to the constitution. And one of 100 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 2: the reasons was the strength of the no case, very 101 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 2: effective in ringing the argument before the idea of a voice, 102 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,720 Speaker 2: this indigenous advisory body would divide the country, would give 103 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 2: recognition to one group over another give extra power, and 104 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,840 Speaker 2: of course they were very effective in prosecuting the case. 105 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 2: I think it's fair to say the No campaign ran 106 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 2: the better campaign. They were more influential, and when you 107 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 2: look at the polling, if you ask people what arguments 108 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 2: were they listening to, most were the No arguments. I 109 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:43,679 Speaker 2: think another factor again was the s case just didn't 110 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 2: have a strong enough platform in education and it meant 111 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 2: that quite apart from the strong arguments of the No case, 112 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 2: there was a lot of misinformation. People found it hard 113 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 2: to understand. Social media was weaponized by both sides as 114 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 2: best as they could, but the No case, I think 115 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 2: much more effectively. Combination of strong arguments prosecuted by the 116 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 2: No case with people i'm sure not knowing much about 117 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 2: the constitution that proved decisive and it got less than 118 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 2: forty percent. It was a really poor result. 119 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: It seems to be almost with referendums in general, and 120 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: the history you painted a bit earlier on that Australians say, look, 121 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: we've elected a government, stop asking us questions, get on 122 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: with it and leave us alone between elections. That kind 123 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 1: of is what it boils down to. On a very 124 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 1: simplistic level, it. 125 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 2: Can, and referendums are really rare of course too, so 126 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 2: it's twenty four years between drinks for the Voice referendum 127 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,840 Speaker 2: and the Republic in nineteen ninety nine. So I think 128 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 2: it's not a normal part of our system, which is 129 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 2: part of the issue too. It's so exceptional and the 130 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 2: level of knowledge is very low. There was one survey 131 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 2: that asked Australians do we have a constitution and about 132 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 2: one in two said no, So heaven knows what people 133 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 2: thought they were voting on, in some cases because they 134 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,159 Speaker 2: didn't know we had a document change in the first place. 135 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:03,719 Speaker 2: And so there's a lot broken about how we go 136 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 2: about it. We've spent hundreds of millions of dollars and 137 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 2: for me, I'd be saying the next referendum should be 138 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 2: much more focused on bread and butter issues, maybe the 139 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 2: federation fixing health care, education, focusing on things that will 140 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 2: improve lives. There's a lot that's broken with the system 141 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 2: our politicians can't fix. They're not allowed to. It's in 142 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 2: the constitution. And I'd like to see us go to 143 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 2: something quite practical that people could say and get by 144 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 2: partisan support for to say, yeah, this just needs to 145 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 2: be fixed. And will pay less tax and have say, 146 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 2: a better health system. 147 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, you mentioned the Republic now a bit earlier 148 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: this morning, in the light of the impending visit by 149 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 1: King Charles, I had both republic and a Monarica. Son, 150 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: would a referendum on a republic go any better today 151 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: than it did in nineteen ninety nine? Do you think? Ah? 152 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 2: Not without a big build up. I think it's unlikely. 153 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:57,559 Speaker 2: The polling's not showing a strong result at this point. 154 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 2: And it's also because it's just not on the agenda. Either. 155 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 2: It pops up when we have visiting royals or the 156 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 2: King's birthday, But it takes years, I think, to get 157 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 2: to people ready to vote yes. And that was the 158 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 2: problem with the Voice. There wasn't years, there was months. 159 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 2: People weren't fully understanding, weren't on board, voted accordingly. And 160 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 2: the Republic that vote in nineteen ninety nine was on 161 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 2: the back of almost every decade of agitation. So maybe 162 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 2: if you said, if there was big government, invested, strong education, 163 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 2: glassroots processes, I might say, well, maybe in five years 164 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:33,959 Speaker 2: or so we might be ready, but we're a long 165 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 2: way off at the moment. Yeah. 166 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: And the other question I have for you citizen initiated referenda, 167 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: which is something that occurs overseas and here in Australia. 168 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 1: You know, you hear the word referendum thrown about. We 169 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 1: should have a referendum on this, and people really mean 170 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: a clever site, So one or the other up both, 171 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: I mean should Is there a place in our system 172 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,319 Speaker 1: for citizen initiated votes? 173 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not a fan of those. Some people. And 174 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,079 Speaker 2: the way they work is you have a petition, people 175 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 2: get let's say ten thousand signatures, then you have a 176 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 2: national vote and if people vote yes, it becomes the law. 177 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 2: And so it's a way of citizens directly making the law. 178 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:16,959 Speaker 2: I prefer our system of representative government. We vote in representatives, 179 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 2: they debate it, they make the law. If we don't 180 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 2: like them, we vote them out. The problem with citizens' 181 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 2: initiated referender is that often the national vote's a really 182 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 2: blunt way of deciding an issue. You often vote on 183 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 2: social issues. It's why even same sex marriage was problematic, 184 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 2: to have a vote on who someone can marry. And 185 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 2: there's a lot of evidence overseas it's manipulated. Big companies 186 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 2: come in, they get the signatures, they manipulate the vote. 187 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:44,719 Speaker 2: I think a parliamentary system is better and personally I'd 188 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 2: prefer to stick with that. 189 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 1: All right, that's where it goes. George, really appreciate your time. 190 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you. Professor George Williams, Vice Chancellor as 191 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: well at Western Sydney UNIQ Constitutional Expert. The book with 192 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: David Hume is People Power. Australian referendums are lost in 193 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 1: won and today is one year since we voted in 194 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 1: the Voice referendum, just one of many that have failed 195 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:14,319 Speaker 1: to change the Constitution.