Speaker 1: I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM. The
Speaker 1: forllout from this year's Adelaide Writers Week, Debarkle has reignited
Speaker 1: fears debate about political interference in the arts and about
Speaker 1: who gets to speak in Australia's cultural spaces. After the
Speaker 1: invitation to Palestinian Australian author Randa Abdulphattau was withdrawn, one
Speaker 1: hundred and eighty writers pulled out in protest. The festival
Speaker 1: was eventually canceled. An Adelaide Festival has since apologized for
Speaker 1: excluding the author from Writers Week, admitting it had failed
Speaker 1: to uphold artistic freedom. The whole saga raises urgent questions
Speaker 1: about how decisions are being made by governments, by boards
Speaker 1: and by those in charge of our institutions. Today, we're
Speaker 1: bringing you a story from last year that exposed one
Speaker 1: of the initial fault lines in cultural administration. It's about
Speaker 1: artist Khalib Subsabi, who was dropped from representing Australia at
Speaker 1: the Venice Biernali after political pressure. Then, as the backlash intense,
Speaker 1: Subsabi was reinstated. It's an episode that feels more relevant
Speaker 1: than ever. It features chief political correspondent for the Saturday Paper,
Speaker 1: Karen Barlow speaking with Ruby Jones. It's Sunday, January eighteenth.
Speaker 1: This episode originally aired February last year.
Speaker 2: So Karen, let's begin in the Senate two weeks ago. Now,
Speaker 2: there was this very interesting hearing that really set this
Speaker 2: story in motion, So tell me about it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So this has been a massive controversy for the arts,
Speaker 4: but it all goes back to this really intense moment
Speaker 4: in Senate question time on the last we believe to
Speaker 4: be the last question time before the election. We have
Speaker 4: the Tasmanian Conservative Liberal Senator Claire Chandler.
Speaker 5: Minister Senator Chandler, thank you President.
Speaker 4: She's someone who's was previously known for campaigning against trans
Speaker 4: people in women's sport. She's got this arts portfolio, something
Speaker 4: that she got in the very recent opposition reshuffle, and
Speaker 4: she's aiming for a hit and she gets it.
Speaker 5: My question is to the minister representing the Prime Minister,
Speaker 5: Senator Wong. The Australian government funded organization Creative Australia has
Speaker 5: announced that Khaled Sabsabi will be Australia's artistic representative to
Speaker 5: the Venice Bienali. Mister Subsabi features the dead Hezbala terrorist
Speaker 5: leader Nazra La in his artworks. With such appalling anti
Speaker 5: semitism in our country, why is the Aarbenese government allowing
Speaker 5: a person who highlights a terrorist leader in his artwork
Speaker 5: to represent Australia on the international stage at the Venice Bierali.
Speaker 6: Excellent, Thank you, Senator Chamber Minister Wong.
Speaker 4: So where Senator Chandler got this information was a column
Speaker 4: was published the day before in the Australian. This appointment
Speaker 4: had been highlighted, in particular the past work of Coaled
Speaker 4: Subsabi and Penny Wong is blind sided by this question.
Speaker 1: Border Border, Senator, I wasn't aware of this until you
Speaker 1: asked me.
Speaker 2: I certainly will get advice and I share your concerns
Speaker 2: about Habela and Karen. The Venice Binali, that's an important event.
Speaker 2: Last year Australia actually won the Goldline Award at the BNALI.
Speaker 2: So being chosen for that role as Australia's representative is
Speaker 2: a big moment for any artist. But tell me, tell
Speaker 2: me about Colored Subsabi.
Speaker 7: My name is Colored Subsabi. My practice is made up
Speaker 7: for many things, and that's progressed over.
Speaker 4: He is renowned as being the first person of Islamic
Speaker 4: faith to win the Blake Prize for Religious Art, and
Speaker 4: that was a very big deal at the time. He
Speaker 4: was born in Lebanon. He came to Australia escaping the
Speaker 4: Civil War in nineteen seventy eight. He is someone who
Speaker 4: looks into themes around Arab culture, dislocation and migration in
Speaker 4: his work.
Speaker 7: A lot of people almost miss the point of my
Speaker 7: artwork or the essence of what I'm saying in my
Speaker 7: artwork because my work's been called extremist in the past
Speaker 7: and all sorts of things. Yeah, my artwork essentially is
Speaker 7: about humanity and commonality.
Speaker 4: So there's two works that have caused the greatest controversy.
Speaker 4: The work You is a video installation showing the now
Speaker 4: assassinated Hesbelalida with light shining through his face and hands.
Speaker 4: This is in the collection of the Museum of Contemporary
Speaker 4: Art in Sydney. And then there is the two thousand
Speaker 4: and six work thank You very Much, which shows see
Speaker 4: the awful impact images from on nine to eleven and
Speaker 4: it shows the then President George W. Bush right at
Speaker 4: the end saying the phrase thank you very much. And
Speaker 4: it turns out that the piece Thank you very Much
Speaker 4: is the piece that has most concerned the Arts Minister,
Speaker 4: and it was the work that the head of Creative Australia,
Speaker 4: Adrian Collette, was unaware of until it was brought up
Speaker 4: by Claire Chainler in senate question time.
Speaker 2: Okay, so the controversy begins and it's around his previous work,
Speaker 2: not his current work. News Corp runs an article about it.
Speaker 2: Chandler gets up at question time and starts asking these questions.
Speaker 2: What happens next?
Speaker 3: The wheels moved very quickly. We have a question that.
Speaker 4: Is asked at around two thirty five in the afternoon,
Speaker 4: immediately after question time, the Public Affairs area of Creative
Speaker 4: Australia immediately contacting Adrian Collette. This is somehow also being
Speaker 4: transmitted to the Arts Minister Tony Burke in the house.
Speaker 4: Within an hour, Tony Burke, as soon as he gets
Speaker 4: out of question time, is calling Adrian Collette to find
Speaker 4: out essentially what the hell to find out about these
Speaker 4: artworks that he was not made aware of previously. In
Speaker 4: that phone call, Adrian Collette informs the Arts Minister that
Speaker 4: the board has already decided to meet to immediately discuss
Speaker 4: the appointment of them for the B and Aali Next
Speaker 4: thing we know, according to Adrian Collette, about four point
Speaker 4: thirty in the afternoon, the artist is made aware that
Speaker 4: the board is being gathered to discuss this urgently. Six
Speaker 4: o'clock the board members gather, apart from one Larissa Brent,
Speaker 4: who is unavailable and is away, and then within an
Speaker 4: hour it's all over. The decision is made unanimously in
Speaker 4: a very difficult board meeting. A little bit later, about
Speaker 4: nine poin thirty, a very short statement goes out to
Speaker 4: inform the world that the appointment is no more and
Speaker 4: then opens a greater controversy.
Speaker 2: Coming up after the break the phone call between the
Speaker 2: boss of Creative Australia and the Arts Minister. Karen You've
Speaker 2: said that the Arts Minister, Tony Burke, as soon as
Speaker 2: he gets out of Question Time, calls the head of
Speaker 2: Creative Australia, Adrian Collette. So tell me how much more
Speaker 2: do we know about that phone call and what was said.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so there's a lot of interest in this phone
Speaker 4: call that happens straight after Question Time. We don't know
Speaker 4: the full context and information in that conversation. There is
Speaker 4: much discussion in the art world that perhaps some undue
Speaker 4: pressure who.
Speaker 3: Is put there.
Speaker 4: But Tony Burke says in his interview on seven point
Speaker 4: thirty that when he spoke to Adrian Collette, it was
Speaker 4: immediately made clear to him that the board had already
Speaker 4: decided to meet over this that day.
Speaker 2: Did you give him any instruction or give him any
Speaker 2: sense of your view of the decision in that conversation.
Speaker 6: I was very clear with him. I made clear to
Speaker 6: Adrian Collett, who I've known for more than a decade,
Speaker 6: I said to him, if you just whichever whatever do
Speaker 6: you decide, I will support you and I will support
Speaker 6: Creative Australia. I was very clear in.
Speaker 4: That the Minister, who has only done a little bit
Speaker 4: of media post this decision, has insisted that he's at
Speaker 4: arm's length, and that's what the legislation that sets up
Speaker 4: Creative Australia insists that there is an arm's length process
Speaker 4: on decisions between the Minister and body itself.
Speaker 3: But there's still question marks.
Speaker 4: We know that the Arts Minister is very personally invested
Speaker 4: in the arts portfolio. He's had that portfolio in the
Speaker 4: Rudd Gillard years. He's personally insisted to the Prime Minister
Speaker 4: that you keep this portfolio despite the reshuffle last year.
Speaker 4: He was brought into Home Affairs to essentially shut down
Speaker 4: the controversies that were continuing prior to him getting the portfolio.
Speaker 4: I think you know, when he got arts, much discussion
Speaker 4: was well how does that fit? And you know, it's
Speaker 4: kind of interesting the way that it's turned out that
Speaker 4: there is this national security bent now to this discussion
Speaker 4: in the arts, so this will be something that personally
Speaker 4: stings him. And there is this whole view that in
Speaker 4: trying to shut down this controversy, it's created a bigger
Speaker 4: one and that Australia is looking terrible on the international stage.
Speaker 2: Can we talk a little more about Creative Australia, because
Speaker 2: as you say, it sounds like this board meeting was
Speaker 2: very tense, very difficult, and it's clear that there is
Speaker 2: a lot of unease within Creative Australia around that decision. Now,
Speaker 2: so tell me a bit more about the fallout.
Speaker 4: So immediately after the board meeting there is a series
Speaker 4: of resignations. We had a resignation from board member Lindy Lee,
Speaker 4: who is an artist, a renowned Australian artist, and she
Speaker 4: expressed how difficult the board meeting was but she was
Speaker 4: unable to talk further about it due to confidentiality. There
Speaker 4: are a number of senior positions in Creative Australia who
Speaker 4: also felt that they had to go. And then we've
Speaker 4: started to see a number of significant people in the
Speaker 4: arts community complain about what has transpired. But it's been
Speaker 4: noted to me that it's not really something that the
Speaker 4: bigger institutions have stood up and said anything about. This
Speaker 4: is something that has been left to large figures such
Speaker 4: as Lizanne McGregor, who is a former director of the
Speaker 4: Museum of Contemporary Art in Sydney. She's stood up and
Speaker 4: discussed how chilling this whole event has been for the
Speaker 4: entire arts community. People in the arts community say this
Speaker 4: will mean that going forward, people will have to look
Speaker 4: at the backgrounds of everyone at every past piece of work,
Speaker 4: so people may not put themselves forward, for example, or
Speaker 4: people will be more careful about what they do and
Speaker 4: express themselves. And liz An McGregor, she tells me she's
Speaker 4: getting emails calls from all over the world asking what
Speaker 4: a Stratia is doing considering its reputation for fostering the.
Speaker 2: Arts and what about the artist. What about Karled Subsabi,
Speaker 2: What has he said about where this has left him.
Speaker 4: We've only had a couple of statements from Coloreds and
Speaker 4: Michael Dagostino. They're united as this artistic team. They are
Speaker 4: asking for privacy while acknowledging thanks for the support from
Speaker 4: the artistic and wider community.
Speaker 3: For their work.
Speaker 4: They are deeply disturbed, both professionally and personally by this decision.
Speaker 3: They're deeply shocked going forward.
Speaker 4: Also the question about the future of Creative Australia and Collette.
Speaker 4: He was asked whether he would resign and he said no,
Speaker 4: he would not. The chair Robert Morgan also was asked
Speaker 4: whether he would resign and he said no. Asked also
Speaker 4: about an apology for the artists. Well, this is now
Speaker 4: in the hands of lawyers and publicly there is no
Speaker 4: apology from Creative Australia to the artists. Ultimately, it looks
Speaker 4: like the BN AALI Pavilion will be empty in twenty
Speaker 4: twenty six.
Speaker 2: Karen, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 1: This episode was originally published in February last year. In July,
Speaker 1: colleagues of Sabi and Michael de Gastino were reinstated as
Speaker 1: Australia's representatives for the twenty twenty six Venice Biernali. In
Speaker 1: a statement at the time, the artist said, this decision
Speaker 1: has renewed our confidence in Creative Australia and in the
Speaker 1: integrity of its selection process. It offers a sense of
Speaker 1: resolution and allows us to move forward with optimism and
Speaker 1: hope artery period of significant personal and collective hardship. The
Speaker 1: decision to reinstate the artist was made after an external review.
Speaker 1: That review found no single failure of process, but rather
Speaker 1: a series of missteps, assumptions and miss opportunities. I'm Daniel James.
Speaker 1: This is seven am. Thanks for listening.