WEBVTT - Revisiting Creative Australia’s decision to drop Khaled Sabsabi 0:00:01.280 --> 0:00:06.800 I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM. The 0:00:06.840 --> 0:00:10.400 forllout from this year's Adelaide Writers Week, Debarkle has reignited 0:00:10.480 --> 0:00:13.760 fears debate about political interference in the arts and about 0:00:13.800 --> 0:00:17.560 who gets to speak in Australia's cultural spaces. After the 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:22.320 invitation to Palestinian Australian author Randa Abdulphattau was withdrawn, one 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:25.880 hundred and eighty writers pulled out in protest. The festival 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:29.760 was eventually canceled. An Adelaide Festival has since apologized for 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:32.880 excluding the author from Writers Week, admitting it had failed 0:00:32.880 --> 0:00:36.720 to uphold artistic freedom. The whole saga raises urgent questions 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:40.279 about how decisions are being made by governments, by boards 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:44.879 and by those in charge of our institutions. Today, we're 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:47.599 bringing you a story from last year that exposed one 0:00:47.600 --> 0:00:51.200 of the initial fault lines in cultural administration. It's about 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:55.160 artist Khalib Subsabi, who was dropped from representing Australia at 0:00:55.160 --> 0:00:59.920 the Venice Biernali after political pressure. Then, as the backlash intense, 0:01:00.720 --> 0:01:04.720 Subsabi was reinstated. It's an episode that feels more relevant 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:08.679 than ever. It features chief political correspondent for the Saturday Paper, 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:17.840 Karen Barlow speaking with Ruby Jones. It's Sunday, January eighteenth. 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:20.839 This episode originally aired February last year. 0:01:24.720 --> 0:01:27.960 So Karen, let's begin in the Senate two weeks ago. Now, 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:31.480 there was this very interesting hearing that really set this 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:33.760 story in motion, So tell me about it. 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:34.320 Yeah. 0:01:34.360 --> 0:01:37.280 So this has been a massive controversy for the arts, 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:41.200 but it all goes back to this really intense moment 0:01:41.480 --> 0:01:44.679 in Senate question time on the last we believe to 0:01:44.680 --> 0:01:49.080 be the last question time before the election. We have 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:53.360 the Tasmanian Conservative Liberal Senator Claire Chandler. 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:57.080 Minister Senator Chandler, thank you President. 0:01:57.480 --> 0:02:01.840 She's someone who's was previously known for campaigning against trans 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:06.840 people in women's sport. She's got this arts portfolio, something 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:12.200 that she got in the very recent opposition reshuffle, and 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:14.840 she's aiming for a hit and she gets it. 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:17.560 My question is to the minister representing the Prime Minister, 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:22.080 Senator Wong. The Australian government funded organization Creative Australia has 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:26.160 announced that Khaled Sabsabi will be Australia's artistic representative to 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:30.880 the Venice Bienali. Mister Subsabi features the dead Hezbala terrorist 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:35.120 leader Nazra La in his artworks. With such appalling anti 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:39.200 semitism in our country, why is the Aarbenese government allowing 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:42.640 a person who highlights a terrorist leader in his artwork 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:47.640 to represent Australia on the international stage at the Venice Bierali. 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:50.680 Excellent, Thank you, Senator Chamber Minister Wong. 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:54.200 So where Senator Chandler got this information was a column 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:59.200 was published the day before in the Australian. This appointment 0:02:59.280 --> 0:03:03.880 had been highlighted, in particular the past work of Coaled 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:09.279 Subsabi and Penny Wong is blind sided by this question. 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:17.640 Border Border, Senator, I wasn't aware of this until you 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:18.080 asked me. 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:21.120 I certainly will get advice and I share your concerns 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:27.680 about Habela and Karen. The Venice Binali, that's an important event. 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:31.399 Last year Australia actually won the Goldline Award at the BNALI. 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:36.440 So being chosen for that role as Australia's representative is 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:39.839 a big moment for any artist. But tell me, tell 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:41.360 me about Colored Subsabi. 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:45.040 My name is Colored Subsabi. My practice is made up 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:47.720 for many things, and that's progressed over. 0:03:48.560 --> 0:03:52.680 He is renowned as being the first person of Islamic 0:03:52.760 --> 0:03:56.640 faith to win the Blake Prize for Religious Art, and 0:03:56.720 --> 0:03:59.640 that was a very big deal at the time. He 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:03.720 was born in Lebanon. He came to Australia escaping the 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:07.480 Civil War in nineteen seventy eight. He is someone who 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:13.040 looks into themes around Arab culture, dislocation and migration in 0:04:13.080 --> 0:04:13.640 his work. 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:16.719 A lot of people almost miss the point of my 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:19.560 artwork or the essence of what I'm saying in my 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:23.200 artwork because my work's been called extremist in the past 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:27.080 and all sorts of things. Yeah, my artwork essentially is 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:32.080 about humanity and commonality. 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:36.200 So there's two works that have caused the greatest controversy. 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:40.760 The work You is a video installation showing the now 0:04:41.040 --> 0:04:47.000 assassinated Hesbelalida with light shining through his face and hands. 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:50.320 This is in the collection of the Museum of Contemporary 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:52.920 Art in Sydney. And then there is the two thousand 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:56.800 and six work thank You very Much, which shows see 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:01.440 the awful impact images from on nine to eleven and 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:04.960 it shows the then President George W. Bush right at 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:08.240 the end saying the phrase thank you very much. And 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:11.200 it turns out that the piece Thank you very Much 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:14.560 is the piece that has most concerned the Arts Minister, 0:05:15.200 --> 0:05:19.400 and it was the work that the head of Creative Australia, 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:22.920 Adrian Collette, was unaware of until it was brought up 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:26.080 by Claire Chainler in senate question time. 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:32.159 Okay, so the controversy begins and it's around his previous work, 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:36.720 not his current work. News Corp runs an article about it. 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:40.840 Chandler gets up at question time and starts asking these questions. 0:05:41.640 --> 0:05:42.680 What happens next? 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:47.560 The wheels moved very quickly. We have a question that. 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:52.040 Is asked at around two thirty five in the afternoon, 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:56.760 immediately after question time, the Public Affairs area of Creative 0:05:56.760 --> 0:06:02.080 Australia immediately contacting Adrian Collette. This is somehow also being 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:05.720 transmitted to the Arts Minister Tony Burke in the house. 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:09.000 Within an hour, Tony Burke, as soon as he gets 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:13.119 out of question time, is calling Adrian Collette to find 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:16.440 out essentially what the hell to find out about these 0:06:16.560 --> 0:06:20.320 artworks that he was not made aware of previously. In 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:24.039 that phone call, Adrian Collette informs the Arts Minister that 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:27.720 the board has already decided to meet to immediately discuss 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:30.920 the appointment of them for the B and Aali Next 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:35.039 thing we know, according to Adrian Collette, about four point 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:38.479 thirty in the afternoon, the artist is made aware that 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:42.839 the board is being gathered to discuss this urgently. Six 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:47.760 o'clock the board members gather, apart from one Larissa Brent, 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:51.400 who is unavailable and is away, and then within an 0:06:51.480 --> 0:06:55.560 hour it's all over. The decision is made unanimously in 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:59.400 a very difficult board meeting. A little bit later, about 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:02.400 nine poin thirty, a very short statement goes out to 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:07.440 inform the world that the appointment is no more and 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:13.400 then opens a greater controversy. 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:15.440 Coming up after the break the phone call between the 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:27.320 boss of Creative Australia and the Arts Minister. Karen You've 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:30.120 said that the Arts Minister, Tony Burke, as soon as 0:07:30.120 --> 0:07:33.000 he gets out of Question Time, calls the head of 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:37.280 Creative Australia, Adrian Collette. So tell me how much more 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:40.800 do we know about that phone call and what was said. 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:44.720 Yeah, so there's a lot of interest in this phone 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:48.680 call that happens straight after Question Time. We don't know 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:54.360 the full context and information in that conversation. There is 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:59.640 much discussion in the art world that perhaps some undue 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:00.240 pressure who. 0:08:00.240 --> 0:08:01.240 Is put there. 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:06.240 But Tony Burke says in his interview on seven point 0:08:06.240 --> 0:08:11.400 thirty that when he spoke to Adrian Collette, it was 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:14.400 immediately made clear to him that the board had already 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:17.000 decided to meet over this that day. 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:19.880 Did you give him any instruction or give him any 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:23.000 sense of your view of the decision in that conversation. 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:26.080 I was very clear with him. I made clear to 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:30.120 Adrian Collett, who I've known for more than a decade, 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:33.680 I said to him, if you just whichever whatever do 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:36.560 you decide, I will support you and I will support 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:39.480 Creative Australia. I was very clear in. 0:08:39.440 --> 0:08:42.800 That the Minister, who has only done a little bit 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:48.559 of media post this decision, has insisted that he's at 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:52.440 arm's length, and that's what the legislation that sets up 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:56.040 Creative Australia insists that there is an arm's length process 0:08:56.640 --> 0:09:01.000 on decisions between the Minister and body itself. 0:09:01.440 --> 0:09:03.520 But there's still question marks. 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:09.120 We know that the Arts Minister is very personally invested 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:12.760 in the arts portfolio. He's had that portfolio in the 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:17.080 Rudd Gillard years. He's personally insisted to the Prime Minister 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:21.240 that you keep this portfolio despite the reshuffle last year. 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:24.720 He was brought into Home Affairs to essentially shut down 0:09:24.720 --> 0:09:29.520 the controversies that were continuing prior to him getting the portfolio. 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:33.120 I think you know, when he got arts, much discussion 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:35.760 was well how does that fit? And you know, it's 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:37.880 kind of interesting the way that it's turned out that 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:41.119 there is this national security bent now to this discussion 0:09:41.440 --> 0:09:45.359 in the arts, so this will be something that personally 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:50.280 stings him. And there is this whole view that in 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:53.040 trying to shut down this controversy, it's created a bigger 0:09:53.080 --> 0:09:57.160 one and that Australia is looking terrible on the international stage. 0:09:57.480 --> 0:10:00.000 Can we talk a little more about Creative Australia, because 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:02.400 as you say, it sounds like this board meeting was 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:05.680 very tense, very difficult, and it's clear that there is 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:09.600 a lot of unease within Creative Australia around that decision. Now, 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:11.760 so tell me a bit more about the fallout. 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:16.720 So immediately after the board meeting there is a series 0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:22.559 of resignations. We had a resignation from board member Lindy Lee, 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:26.640 who is an artist, a renowned Australian artist, and she 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:30.240 expressed how difficult the board meeting was but she was 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:33.800 unable to talk further about it due to confidentiality. There 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:37.240 are a number of senior positions in Creative Australia who 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:40.680 also felt that they had to go. And then we've 0:10:40.800 --> 0:10:44.439 started to see a number of significant people in the 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:49.640 arts community complain about what has transpired. But it's been 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:53.480 noted to me that it's not really something that the 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:57.880 bigger institutions have stood up and said anything about. This 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:01.080 is something that has been left to large figures such 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:05.120 as Lizanne McGregor, who is a former director of the 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:07.840 Museum of Contemporary Art in Sydney. She's stood up and 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:11.960 discussed how chilling this whole event has been for the 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:16.520 entire arts community. People in the arts community say this 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:19.480 will mean that going forward, people will have to look 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:23.960 at the backgrounds of everyone at every past piece of work, 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:28.440 so people may not put themselves forward, for example, or 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:32.240 people will be more careful about what they do and 0:11:32.320 --> 0:11:36.520 express themselves. And liz An McGregor, she tells me she's 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:41.840 getting emails calls from all over the world asking what 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:47.439 a Stratia is doing considering its reputation for fostering the. 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:52.240 Arts and what about the artist. What about Karled Subsabi, 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:55.320 What has he said about where this has left him. 0:11:55.880 --> 0:12:00.719 We've only had a couple of statements from Coloreds and 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:05.000 Michael Dagostino. They're united as this artistic team. They are 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:09.440 asking for privacy while acknowledging thanks for the support from 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:12.320 the artistic and wider community. 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:13.720 For their work. 0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:20.520 They are deeply disturbed, both professionally and personally by this decision. 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:24.760 They're deeply shocked going forward. 0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:29.200 Also the question about the future of Creative Australia and Collette. 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:33.520 He was asked whether he would resign and he said no, 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:37.720 he would not. The chair Robert Morgan also was asked 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:41.760 whether he would resign and he said no. Asked also 0:12:42.080 --> 0:12:47.600 about an apology for the artists. Well, this is now 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:52.080 in the hands of lawyers and publicly there is no 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:58.079 apology from Creative Australia to the artists. Ultimately, it looks 0:12:58.120 --> 0:13:01.920 like the BN AALI Pavilion will be empty in twenty 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:02.560 twenty six. 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:07.680 Karen, thank you so much for your time. 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:08.520 Thank you. 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:24.040 This episode was originally published in February last year. In July, 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:27.840 colleagues of Sabi and Michael de Gastino were reinstated as 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:32.480 Australia's representatives for the twenty twenty six Venice Biernali. In 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:35.480 a statement at the time, the artist said, this decision 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:38.679 has renewed our confidence in Creative Australia and in the 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:42.000 integrity of its selection process. It offers a sense of 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:45.160 resolution and allows us to move forward with optimism and 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:50.040 hope artery period of significant personal and collective hardship. The 0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:53.120 decision to reinstate the artist was made after an external review. 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:57.200 That review found no single failure of process, but rather 0:13:57.280 --> 0:14:02.800 a series of missteps, assumptions and miss opportunities. I'm Daniel James. 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:04.840 This is seven am. Thanks for listening.