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Speaker 1: Now the former leader of the opposition. Here the Liberal

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Speaker 1: Party leader, former Liberal leader David Spears maintaining he is

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Speaker 1: the victim of a digital hoax and a video of

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Speaker 1: him snorting white powder on his kitchen bench, he says,

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Speaker 1: is a deep fake. It was apparently recorded in June

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Speaker 1: this year, while he was still the leader. He claims

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Speaker 1: it's not him. He has never taken illicit drugs. The

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Speaker 1: new Liberal leader, Vicentasia, have been in the job a

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks now is urging mister Spears to report

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Speaker 1: it to police. This is a little bit of Vincentasia.

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Speaker 2: Any suggestion of this kind of activity is of concern

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Speaker 2: to me and my party takes these matters very seriously.

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Speaker 2: This is a matter for mister Spears, and if it

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Speaker 2: is faked, mister Spears should refer it to the appropriate authorities.

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Speaker 2: It would be inappropriate for further comment and to all

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Speaker 2: the facts are known, all.

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Speaker 1: Right, so indeed, and I think that's a sensible thing

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Speaker 1: to do if it is a fake. And David Spears

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Speaker 1: absolutely maintained, he says he's horrified by the image. Then

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Speaker 1: never done drugs, he says, And if it's a fac

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Speaker 1: as he says, it is he needs to take it

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Speaker 1: to police. That has to be the first thing to

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Speaker 1: He should be at the police station now making a report.

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Speaker 1: The Premier, Peter Malinowskis was asked about it on the

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Speaker 1: Sky News not long ago.

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Speaker 3: Look, last night I was totally consumed by the news

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Speaker 3: that was emerging that the federal government was going to

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Speaker 3: adopt our policy on social media, and then the other

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Speaker 3: news broke from the Alained Advertiser regarding the former leader

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Speaker 3: of the Opposition what he was allegedly doing while he

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Speaker 3: was leader of the Opposition. I just don't have a

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Speaker 3: comment to make on this, or I'll leave that this

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Speaker 3: should these matters, this dysfunction, This is exclusively a matter

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Speaker 3: of the South Australian division of the Little Party.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's a deep fake.

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Speaker 1: If it's a deep fake, it's all about problem, isn't it.

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Speaker 3: If it's a deep fake here.

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Speaker 2: So one final one here then should if it is

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Speaker 2: a deep fake, should David be referring this to police?

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Speaker 3: Of course, of course that would be very serious.

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Speaker 1: All right, that's a Premier speaking with Laura Jays on

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Speaker 1: Sky News just a short while ago. Let's put all

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Speaker 1: this to Professor Nigel fair professor of cyber security at

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Speaker 1: Monash University. And I think Laura Jays hit it right

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Speaker 1: on the head there, Nigel that if this is a

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Speaker 1: deep fake, it is a problem for every single person

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Speaker 1: on this planet, let alone. David spears, yes.

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Speaker 4: And good morning. Absolutely it is and we're seeing more

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Speaker 4: and more of this use of technology in Again, that's

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Speaker 4: assuming it is a deep fake. Whether it's image based,

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Speaker 4: whether it's video based, whether it's voice based. There's lots

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Speaker 4: of deep fake technology out there being used by people.

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Speaker 1: Where do we go with it? How do we protect ourselves?

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Speaker 4: Well, like a lot of things online, it's getting harder

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Speaker 4: and harder to be protected. And the government has a

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Speaker 4: Commonwealth Government has a bill going through the Parliament regarding

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Speaker 4: the use of deep fakes in a sexual content. So

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Speaker 4: they're trying to bring in legislation that will provide prison

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Speaker 4: sentences for people that create it and also people that distributed.

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Speaker 4: But that is only for sexual offense matter only, not

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Speaker 4: for things like this.

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Speaker 1: I suppose the other side of it too. Deep fakes

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Speaker 1: could be used to get someone out of trouble if

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Speaker 1: they have done something inappropriate and then then just claim

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Speaker 1: it's a deep break. How do you prove that it's not. Huh,

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Speaker 1: it works both ways, doesn't it?

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Speaker 4: Well? Absolutely, And I see this is where we're headed

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Speaker 4: to with particularly public figures. When something happens that they

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Speaker 4: don't like, it's going to be almost abates which have

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Speaker 4: nothing to see here. It was a deep fake, it

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Speaker 4: was technology. Let's move on, and you're going to have

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Speaker 4: real deep faking and have people just peddling that as

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Speaker 4: a used for what happened and it didn't really happen.

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Speaker 1: Is the strict penalties if these people can be caught,

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Speaker 1: and I suppose there might be some doubt there. I

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Speaker 1: guess occasionally they will be, but harsh, really harsh penalties

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Speaker 1: the answer here to try and prevent it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it seems as little else that we'll be able to

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Speaker 1: be done.

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Speaker 4: Well, yeah, it would be difficult to work out who

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Speaker 4: did it, but there is a lot of metadata behind

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Speaker 4: the image. So every time we just take out a

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Speaker 4: photo through our phone, there's a lot of metadata like

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Speaker 4: geo vocation device that was taken on day and time stamps.

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Speaker 4: You know that the resolution of the picture. There's lots

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Speaker 4: of information that could be collected if you've got the

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Speaker 4: original image. And also that metadata at the back and

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Speaker 4: the will also be altered, indeed a deep faith. And

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Speaker 4: that's why it should go to the police, because they'll

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Speaker 4: be able to determine whether there was any doctoring of

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Speaker 4: the image from those those properties. But you know, we

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Speaker 4: penalties are great, but it is hard to enforce, and

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Speaker 4: I kind of think we need to just keep this

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Speaker 4: conversation going of what it means to participate in the

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Speaker 4: online environment, both the goods are bad and indifferent.

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Speaker 1: There's probably lessons to be learned in here too, I

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Speaker 1: imagine for young people, especially on social media. And you know,

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Speaker 1: we know of, for instance, school kids getting into trouble

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Speaker 1: creating deep fakes of classmates or teachers in various forms,

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Speaker 1: and there's always a lesson to be learned in that

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Speaker 1: about just how careful you need to be. What you

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Speaker 1: put up on social media is there forever somebody could

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Speaker 1: keep a copy of it, Someone you don't even know

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Speaker 1: could keep a copy of it, and it comes back

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Speaker 1: to haunt you years, maybe even decades later.

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Speaker 4: Oh could haunt you when you know, it's nothing unusual

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Speaker 4: for employers that he's starting to look up social media

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Speaker 4: pages of the potential employees sort of get a gist

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Speaker 4: of who they are and what they are and the

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Speaker 4: type of person they may be employing. So, as you say,

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Speaker 4: the Internet never forgets, and a lot of people do

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Speaker 4: these things, sometimes ingest or thinking it was a good

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Speaker 4: idea at the time, not realizing that the long term

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Speaker 4: dis benefit to it and also the long term hurt

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Speaker 4: that it might cause to someone else, whether they just think

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Speaker 4: that was the case at the time. So we do

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Speaker 4: really need to talk to people of all ages about

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Speaker 4: that participation online and what it really means in the

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Speaker 4: long term.

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Speaker 1: Laws often catch up to technology. We've seen this over

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Speaker 1: the last couple of decades, where you know, the social world,

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Speaker 1: the tech world is way ahead of where governments around.

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Speaker 1: Do we need to catch up on deep thanks, Well.

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Speaker 4: We do, and to your point, we never will catch

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Speaker 4: up because by the time we catch up on this,

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Speaker 4: there'll be something new. If we had this conversation two

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Speaker 4: years ago, we wouldn't have thought that such a thing

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Speaker 4: would be so mainstream now. But it is. As I

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Speaker 4: said before, it's not just images, it's video. There's criminals

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Speaker 4: using grabs of people's voices that I've thought to be

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Speaker 4: them and do scams and other criminal activities. So The

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Speaker 4: problem is with technologies. As you say, it raises ahead

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Speaker 4: and laws behind it. We want to make our laws

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Speaker 4: as technology neutral as possible to take it, you know,

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Speaker 4: account to what's going to come next.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, indeed, And do you advise governments? Do they come

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Speaker 1: to you and ask you for information and advice for legislation?

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Speaker 1: You're laughing, So I take it.

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Speaker 4: No, no, no, Look, I put in semi regular submissions

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Speaker 4: when the government coursed the submissions around these sorts of

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Speaker 4: things that posits by the phone, isn't.

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Speaker 1: Wrung not beating a path to your door? Maybe they should, Nigel,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know it's your professor of cybersecurity. I

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Speaker 1: reckon you'd know a thing or two about it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Well I've been doing this for twenty one years ago,

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Speaker 4: back to DEEG when I was in the police, so

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Speaker 4: and a lot has changed in the time. But always

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Speaker 4: happy to talk to government of any favor of any jurisdiction.

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Speaker 1: All right, good on your Nigel, appreciate the time as always,

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you. Professor Nigel fair there who is

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Speaker 1: a professor of cybersecurity Monash Uni. Connie Bernaros has been

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Speaker 1: ahead of the curve. She had legislation before State Parliament

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Speaker 1: some months ago to tackle the issue of deep fakes.

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Speaker 5: Kindie, good morning, Good morning, Matthew, and good morning to

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Speaker 5: your listeners.

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Speaker 1: Now, David Spears says, absolutely a deep break. Certainly not him,

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Speaker 1: never done drugs, never done coke, never done anything like this,

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Speaker 1: and it's not him, gosh that you know, as I

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Speaker 1: said earlier, that could be any one of us in

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Speaker 1: this situation.

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Speaker 4: Matthew.

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Speaker 5: Remember the first time I came on and spoke on

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Speaker 5: your program about this, I'd said that we could, you know,

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Speaker 5: literally grab an image of you or me today and

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Speaker 5: turn it into a very sexually explicit image, and to

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Speaker 5: the general viewer, they would not be able to tell

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Speaker 5: if indeed it was a real image or not. It

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Speaker 5: wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if this were a

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Speaker 5: deep fake. They can be very sophisticated. Like you said,

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Speaker 5: we struggle to keep up with technology in our law making,

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Speaker 5: and the bill that I've introduced into Parliament we'll deal

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Speaker 5: with precisely this sort of this sort of material, if

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Speaker 5: indeed it were a deep fake, if it's sexually explicit,

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Speaker 5: if it's designed to degrade or humiliate somebody, then the

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Speaker 5: production of that material, the distribution of that material, the

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Speaker 5: threat to distribute that material would be subject to new

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Speaker 5: offenses in line with other offenses that we already have.

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Speaker 5: It's another of us keeping pace with technology.

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Speaker 1: All right, So this would take I imagine a renowned urgency,

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Speaker 1: a renewed urgency in state parliament. Are you expecting that

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Speaker 1: your legislation from here? Where will it go?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: Look, it's been introduced in the Upper House, as I said,

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Speaker 5: and I've been engaging in discussions with the government. I'm

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Speaker 5: very very confident that the government is indeed very committed

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Speaker 5: to this issue. So I expect that bill to pass.

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Speaker 5: I also think that there will be further changes that

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Speaker 5: the government will explore around deep fakes that will be

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Speaker 5: the subject of the end result of the consultation period

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Speaker 5: that they're undergoing at the moment. So there's two there's

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Speaker 5: two elements to it. This is the first place, and

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Speaker 5: I think one that we can deal with very quickly

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Speaker 5: and efficiently, and I think we ought to because we

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Speaker 5: can see that this stuff is it's rampant, Matthew, and

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Speaker 5: it's impacting people's lives. You know, nobody should be If

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Speaker 5: I give you one example, and I think your previous

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Speaker 5: speaker alluded to the fact that we don't know whether

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Speaker 5: legislation always works. Remember the explosion of sex thing where

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Speaker 5: people were sending intimate, sexually explicit photos and images and

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Speaker 5: videos of their former partners and so forth. That was

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Speaker 5: a huge problem. We introduced legislation to deal with that,

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Speaker 5: and now most people know that if they share one

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Speaker 5: of those images or videos and it is reported to police,

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Speaker 5: there is a significant criminal penalty that attaches to it.

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Speaker 5: So you know, it's it's education. It's worked well in

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Speaker 5: schools in terms of educating young people that this is

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Speaker 5: not on, and this is precisely the same. It's just

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Speaker 5: another layer of technology that we have to catch up to.

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Speaker 1: All right, now, do you think penalty should be even

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Speaker 1: harsher than maybe what you've allowed for in legislation for

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Speaker 1: this to dissuade people? I mean, our tough penalties the

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Speaker 1: answer here to stop people doing this.

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Speaker 5: Well, tough penalties are because once there's one or two cases,

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Speaker 5: people generally learn that this behavior isn't is on. Now

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Speaker 5: you know, our penalty is always four within sort of

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Speaker 5: just some sort of you know, they're on par with

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Speaker 5: other similar sorts of offending what we're doing now is

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Speaker 5: creating new offenses, adding them to existing similar offenses, So

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Speaker 5: you would expect that the penalties would be on par,

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Speaker 5: and they are significant penalties that we've that we've introduced.

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Speaker 5: So even just the threat to distribute invasive depiction would

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Speaker 5: carry a maximum of I think it's and I'll just

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Speaker 5: have to double check, but I think it's two years

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Speaker 5: under my legislation, or ten or twenty thousand dollars depending

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Speaker 5: on the actual fence. So there's a range in there,

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Speaker 5: but there's no question that they work. If you're stupid

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Speaker 5: enough or careless enough, or reckless enough to engage in

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Speaker 5: this sort of behavior to the detriment of another person,

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Speaker 5: then of course there should be penalties, and they should

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Speaker 5: be severe.

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Speaker 1: It's two years enough. I mean, you could potentially wreck

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Speaker 1: someone's career, you could wreck their life, and you know,

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Speaker 1: today World suicide Day, you don't want to think of

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Speaker 1: the unthinkable, but potentially that's something that could happen as

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Speaker 1: well as a result of someone being malicious.

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Speaker 5: And the irony is today I call it irony. But

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Speaker 5: you know, that's the one thing that's always lost in

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Speaker 5: all of these discussions, isn't it a massive, because once

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Speaker 5: this material is out there, the damage is dumb. You

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Speaker 5: can't claw back it's there. That footprint is there forever,

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Speaker 5: and the damage is dumb, and that person's going to

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Speaker 5: have to deal with this. Whoever, they are always going

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Speaker 5: to have to deal with this regardless. So I think

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Speaker 5: that the penalty should be significant. I'm mindful that when

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Speaker 5: we draft these there's a range that we put penalties in.

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Speaker 5: But look, that's something I'm open to discussing with the

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Speaker 5: government in terms of where that penalty should sit. But ultimately,

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Speaker 5: like you said, we have to be concerned about the

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Speaker 5: person at the end of this, and no longer are

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Speaker 5: we dealing with you know, you know, the idea that

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Speaker 5: someone has to be physically assaulted in person by another person.

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Speaker 5: This is equally invasive and traumatic for an individual. It's

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Speaker 5: not more particularly agree it's accessible to the world.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, exactly right, and that's hard to claw

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Speaker 1: it back, as you say, just about impossible once reputations

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Speaker 1: are tarnished in this way. As somebody at one point

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Speaker 1: said that, you know, a lie runs around the world

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Speaker 1: before truth gets out of bed and pulls its trousers on.

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Speaker 5: So absolutely, there we go all.

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Speaker 1: Right, Connie Banarus, appreciate your time, thank you, thank you,

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Speaker 1: and Connie Baros uper how say best. MP and legislation

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Speaker 1: already before State Parliament been there for a couple of

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Speaker 1: months to tackle the issue of deep fakes, just ahead

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Speaker 1: of the curve. And this image today front page of

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Speaker 1: The TiSER a video part of a video that purports

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Speaker 1: to show former Liberal leader David Spears snorting coke in

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Speaker 1: his kitchen and he is adamant it is not him.

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Speaker 1: We've asked him for a comment this morning and at

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Speaker 1: least to find out whether he's been to police yet,

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Speaker 1: because if it is a deep fake, as he claims

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Speaker 1: it is, he absolutely must go to police.