Speaker 1: A good a team. It's quig Afty Harp. It's the
Speaker 1: ninth of January, ninth of January twenty twenty sixth as
Speaker 1: I record this, we're well and truly into the new year.
Speaker 1: We're up and running well more accurately in Melbourne at
Speaker 1: this point in time, without trying to sound like a
Speaker 1: fucking broken record, but it is persistently Sweltering is not
Speaker 1: even a good word. It's it's what. I don't know
Speaker 1: what hotter than sweltering is, but that's what it is. Now.
Speaker 1: I know that you're in the middle of the heat
Speaker 1: most of the time, doctor Sam. Forty four in Melbourne
Speaker 1: yesterday and forty three today, so and really windy and
Speaker 1: lots of fires. So and we're not conditioned to it.
Speaker 2: You know, that would just be unheard of for you guys.
Speaker 1: Hate to reach it well now and then yeah sorry
Speaker 1: now and then it gets there. But also you know,
Speaker 1: it's like tomorrow. I think it's like today was forty four,
Speaker 1: tomorrow is like twenty three. It's just so so hey anyway.
Speaker 2: Happy New Year, Happy New Year to you too.
Speaker 1: Did you have a good break did you do any
Speaker 1: I know the answer to this question, but our listeners
Speaker 1: don't because you had a brief chat. But did you
Speaker 1: do anything for the break? Did you go away? Did
Speaker 1: you have a holiday?
Speaker 2: Yes? I did. I went to Argentina for a few weeks.
Speaker 2: That was amazing. And then I was in Perth visiting
Speaker 2: families that was also good. So I feel like I had,
Speaker 2: you know, two different kinds of holidays, right, So it
Speaker 2: was kind of good. It was both cut filling but
Speaker 2: in different ways. That I love doing holidays like that,
Speaker 2: rather than trying to combine all the things I think about.
Speaker 2: I really want to do a family holiday and I
Speaker 2: will do that. And then I really want to do
Speaker 2: a holiday that is actually relaxing and I get to
Speaker 2: slow down that pace. And I got that too, So
Speaker 2: it was great.
Speaker 1: Now I know this because you already told me one
Speaker 1: was with the kids and one was without. We'll actually
Speaker 1: come back to that in a moment, but I just
Speaker 1: you said a really interesting term, and the term was
Speaker 1: cup filling. Both cup feeling but in different ways. What
Speaker 1: can you I get what that means, but in what
Speaker 1: ways did both of those you know, one in Argentina,
Speaker 1: which seems very you know, fabulous and amazing and exotic,
Speaker 1: and one in perth like differentiate between those How did
Speaker 1: they feel your cup?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think if you know cut filing activities
Speaker 2: can it can feel contradictory at times. Right, So if
Speaker 2: you think about, you know, the average working mom, we
Speaker 2: we're working, and we're trying to juggle all the things,
Speaker 2: our kids, a work life, and there's not so much
Speaker 2: space for us to recharge. And so when you think
Speaker 2: of a holiday, you know, when you get annual leave
Speaker 2: from work, you think of it as a Okay, this
Speaker 2: is supposed to restore my energy to go back and work.
Speaker 2: But what generally happens when you only use your holidays
Speaker 2: when your kids have holidays is you're actually just parenting
Speaker 2: in another city or you're doing probably more of the
Speaker 2: things at home. And so even though you view being
Speaker 2: with your kids as cup feeling, you actually come back
Speaker 2: even more to plead. And so when I think about
Speaker 2: the things that fill up my cup, I think, you know,
Speaker 2: I love to spend time alone and traveling and sitting
Speaker 2: with myself and going at my own pace and giving
Speaker 2: myself what I need. And of course I also like
Speaker 2: to be with my kids and do fun things and
Speaker 2: pick up that pace. And so yeah, the Argentina trip
Speaker 2: because it was without the kids. It was really it's
Speaker 2: actually uncomfortable, I think as a mom, when you're so
Speaker 2: used to focusing on others and taking care of others,
Speaker 2: to have a holiday where you're like, what do I
Speaker 2: want to do? What do I want to eat? Where
Speaker 2: do I want to go? And you know, it's kind
Speaker 2: of relearning to trust myself and listen to my cues,
Speaker 2: and that feels very restorative. And then because I've had that, right,
Speaker 2: I come back and I'm in the mode of having,
Speaker 2: you know, the kids around and doing all, you know,
Speaker 2: the kid kind of related activities. But I know what
Speaker 2: the purpose of that is. That purpose isn't actually a
Speaker 2: relaxing holiday for me. It is to spend time with
Speaker 2: the kids, which is cut feeling. And so I think
Speaker 2: it's really important. You know, we often as moms try
Speaker 2: and multitask all the things, and I think I'm very
Speaker 2: much about being present and I love being able to
Speaker 2: be present with myself and present with my kids, and
Speaker 2: sometimes that means to separate the two.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like, you know, shout out to mums,
Speaker 1: and I'm not just saying that because you're a mum
Speaker 1: and we're talking about mums are so great. My mum's
Speaker 1: eighty six and she's she's still a mum though she
Speaker 1: still thinks like a mum. I know that sounds dumby.
Speaker 2: No, does it?
Speaker 1: No? No, But it's like she's My mom's really religious, right,
Speaker 1: So my mum's big thing. Like when I've got stuff on,
Speaker 1: she just prays for me and she's like, I've been
Speaker 1: praying for you today. I'm like, thank you, Mom, Like
Speaker 1: that's her thing. And she'll you know, when I like
Speaker 1: I said, she's eighty six, I'll go up there and
Speaker 1: she will have been cooking food through the day, put
Speaker 1: them in little freezer bags and packs and put them
Speaker 1: in the freezer. So she's still cooking for me, and
Speaker 1: she's still worrying because I look gaunt or you look skinnish,
Speaker 1: tells me, I look that. She's not trying to be insulting.
Speaker 3: She's been language seems right, yeah, yeah, her love language
Speaker 3: is Yeah, my mum is not a big hugger or
Speaker 3: cuddler or but she has started to say I love you,
Speaker 3: which she never did, right because she had a very tough,
Speaker 3: tough childhood and that just wasn't part of her childhood.
Speaker 1: Experience or vocabulary or you know, she didn't have a
Speaker 1: mom because her mom died giving birth to her right,
Speaker 1: so all of these things. But it's so funny. I
Speaker 1: look at my mum and among all the myriad of
Speaker 1: intersecting variables, you know, the you know, the physiological and
Speaker 1: the cognitive and the social and the hearing and the
Speaker 1: you know, all of the decline that's happening, as it
Speaker 1: does with everybody. In the middle of all of that,
Speaker 1: she's still a mum worrying about her son. Like it
Speaker 1: just doesn't go away.
Speaker 2: It doesn't stop. And you know, it's interesting. A lot
Speaker 2: of moms say, I just need to get through, you know,
Speaker 2: until my kids get to school, and then I'm going
Speaker 2: to be able to rest. And then they have the
Speaker 2: worries about the school situation, and then they think for
Speaker 2: high school and then the adult and beinger grandparents. So
Speaker 2: you're right, it doesn't end.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And it doesn't matter what I what I
Speaker 1: tell I go, Mum, I'm great, I'm literally great. There's
Speaker 1: nothing to worry about, you know, and she doesn't. It
Speaker 1: doesn't change.
Speaker 4: It's yeah, it's what's the when you're away from your kids,
Speaker 4: and maybe you could extrapolate, well maybe speak for you,
Speaker 4: but also more broadly for all of the parents that
Speaker 4: you work.
Speaker 1: With when you're away from your kids. And it's three weeks,
Speaker 1: which I guess is a huge amount of time compared
Speaker 1: to you know, like you would get a few hours
Speaker 1: away from your kids and then feel like a mini holiday, right,
Speaker 1: so to have three weeks And of course you're doing
Speaker 1: the right thing, and of course that's not a bad
Speaker 1: thing on any level. But is there just because you're
Speaker 1: a mum, is there any guilt or any kind of
Speaker 1: feelings that are negative feelings associated with not being with them?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so interesting you asked that, because you know, if
Speaker 2: I look back a few years ago, I had so
Speaker 2: much anxiety about leaving my child at all, like I
Speaker 2: just in general, sorry, not even sorry, not even a
Speaker 2: few years back when I first became a mum, the
Speaker 2: thought of that just made me not you know, like
Speaker 2: completely shut down. And I remember the first flight I
Speaker 2: took away from my child, and it was like a
Speaker 2: medical appointment because I lived in you know, wook book
Speaker 2: and I had what I felt like it was an
Speaker 2: anxiety attack on the plane, like I just I struggled,
Speaker 2: And for me, that was an indication of I need
Speaker 2: to do this more. This is not healthy, this is
Speaker 2: not good for him or for me, And so I
Speaker 2: was conscious of that and I worked up, you know,
Speaker 2: to that I made sure then when I wanted to
Speaker 2: quit all my work and study, I made sure that
Speaker 2: I kept that. I made sure that I built in
Speaker 2: these things. And so you may look at three weeks
Speaker 2: being like wow, but it definitely was a lead up
Speaker 2: to that. And I remember the first time I did
Speaker 2: a three week block. It was last year actually, and
Speaker 2: I not last year, the year before, sorry, and I
Speaker 2: did not want to do it, like the thought of
Speaker 2: three weeks just felt debilitating. And I remember actually my
Speaker 2: own dad waking me through that, and it was interesting
Speaker 2: because it kind of called me out on the stories
Speaker 2: I had attached to that of why that wouldn't be
Speaker 2: okay and how I would not survive or the kids
Speaker 2: would not be okay. And when I realized that these
Speaker 2: are just stories and if anything, it's going to help
Speaker 2: me towards my own growth, I pushed through it, despite
Speaker 2: the anxiety, despite me wanting to cancel it, And honestly,
Speaker 2: that was the most I would say life changing trip
Speaker 2: I've had for myself and it completely changed the course
Speaker 2: of my life into in terms of where I was going,
Speaker 2: and I didn't even realize it. It was years before
Speaker 2: I actually stopped, you know, like I was actually on
Speaker 2: survival mode for quite some time, and that trip was
Speaker 2: really pivotable. And this was in twenty twenty four. It
Speaker 2: was so pivotal towards the direction I was going in
Speaker 2: because for the first time I actually just sat with
Speaker 2: myself and I didn't think about what somebody else wanted
Speaker 2: from me, and I was like, I'm just going to
Speaker 2: start to learn to listen to my cues, and that
Speaker 2: only benefits your kids, to be honest, Like, if you
Speaker 2: don't take the space away from your life to do that, honestly,
Speaker 2: whether it's like half an hour or three weeks, if
Speaker 2: you don't take the space to do that, people around you,
Speaker 2: you know, they feel that bad as well when we
Speaker 2: use others to fill us up. So I do feel like,
Speaker 2: in whichever way you want to do it, it's such
Speaker 2: a necessary part of growth to have little time alone,
Speaker 2: whatever that looks like for you.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. And also we will point out to our
Speaker 1: listeners who are probably thinking, oh my god, where were
Speaker 1: you kids for three weeks they were with their dad, right,
Speaker 1: so it's not like it's not like they were parentless.
Speaker 2: But yeah, and its interesting though as well. Sorry to
Speaker 2: cut you off there, but if a father did that,
Speaker 2: no one kind of bot sized right when there's like
Speaker 2: a work trip on or a father's away. But when
Speaker 2: a mom does it, it just there's a different story
Speaker 2: attached to it. And I very much like to point
Speaker 2: that out because we often put so much importance, say
Speaker 2: on a three week period, but what about what our
Speaker 2: lifestyle looks like on a daily basis. You know, for me,
Speaker 2: I build in so much quality time with my kids
Speaker 2: when I do have them, so it yeah, it doesn't.
Speaker 2: I would much prefer it that way. You know. Then
Speaker 2: I'm feeling like my leave is the only time with them, for.
Speaker 1: Example, without getting too specific or talking about anything you
Speaker 1: don't want to talk about. So you and the kid's
Speaker 1: dad split a while ago? What was that like a
Speaker 1: year or three years or given?
Speaker 2: Yeah, about three and a half years ago.
Speaker 1: Okay, And I guess the reason that I want to
Speaker 1: open that door a little bit is if it's all
Speaker 1: right with you and feel free to not talk about
Speaker 1: what you don't want to talk about. But what's interesting
Speaker 1: is one you went through that just you as a mum,
Speaker 1: as a wife, as a human, as someone who was
Speaker 1: married and then broke up, which is an incredibly common
Speaker 1: part of the human experience. It's not like you invented it, right,
Speaker 1: But so you go through it as just not just
Speaker 1: but as a regular human being. But then you also
Speaker 1: go through it as a psychologist who works with people
Speaker 1: going through stuff like this and kids going through So
Speaker 1: you're working with the parents, and you're working with the
Speaker 1: children of people who have separated or divorced or are
Speaker 1: in the middle of that process, which can be very
Speaker 1: lumpy and bumpy. I would assume what did you, if anything, like,
Speaker 1: what did you learn, both just as a mum and
Speaker 1: as a person, but also as a psychologist dealing with
Speaker 1: people going through that themselves, Like what were, if anything,
Speaker 1: any of the light bulbs or revelations for you.
Speaker 2: That's such a good question. Yeah, because being a child therapist, right,
Speaker 2: I've obviously sat with kids going through this transition. I've
Speaker 2: talked to parents around helping their child navigate this, and
Speaker 2: then yeah, me going through it. And so it's interesting
Speaker 2: because when we go through a life transition like this,
Speaker 2: we don't go through it from the skills that we
Speaker 2: have or the experiences just professionally. We go through it
Speaker 2: from our own conditioning. So my parents got divorced when
Speaker 2: I was school aged, and I had a lot of
Speaker 2: stories around this of how I never wanted to get
Speaker 2: divorced and give my child, you know, the life that
Speaker 2: they had, and no matter what, you know, I was
Speaker 2: going to keep family together. And so it was really
Speaker 2: my stories, and I would say probably my own unprocessed
Speaker 2: trauma around that that actually impacted how I responded and
Speaker 2: or how I felt sorry in this process, rather than
Speaker 2: the skills and the tools that I had, Because remember,
Speaker 2: when we're in a state of whether it's fear or
Speaker 2: grief or anxiety or you know, processing our own heavy emotions,
Speaker 2: we're not drawing upon the skills that we've learned. We
Speaker 2: are drawing upon our past experiences. So it was very
Speaker 2: hard to get clarity around that. But I think probably
Speaker 2: what the most important insight I got from that is
Speaker 2: how I viewed the situation. What I was going through right,
Speaker 2: being an adult and being part of this dynamic is
Speaker 2: very different from what the child experience is. For them,
Speaker 2: the whole world has come crashing down, and that's really
Speaker 2: hard for parents to actually take a step back and
Speaker 2: sit with because they're like, oh, no, I'm going to
Speaker 2: buffer that for them, and I'm and no, that's not
Speaker 2: how it's going to be and this is going to
Speaker 2: be better and all the ways that we justified that,
Speaker 2: but just initially, the whole world is crushing down and
Speaker 2: allowing time and space for that grief and for that process.
Speaker 2: And you've got a lot of things that you can't
Speaker 2: control in this situation, somebody else's narrative or other external
Speaker 2: influences around that as well. But if anything, I think
Speaker 2: it's really important rather than you know, as we can
Speaker 2: be caught up in a reactive kind of approach and response,
Speaker 2: to really start connecting with our own values and really
Speaker 2: connecting with our own growth around this as well, and
Speaker 2: supporting the child through. Like you said in necessary parts,
Speaker 2: sometimes if life endings and transitions.
Speaker 1: Is what is the really or what is the most
Speaker 1: common kind of challenge for the kids? Like when you
Speaker 1: like a lot of kids respond this way or that way,
Speaker 1: and so we're constantly trying to mitigate this or navigate
Speaker 1: that or remedy that is there. And I know everyone responds.
Speaker 1: Grown ups and kids respond differently to similar circumstances. But
Speaker 1: is there something is it more practical? Is it about fear,
Speaker 1: is it about navigating the uncertain? What is it that's
Speaker 1: a real common denominator with kids going through that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, interesting you say that. I look at the research
Speaker 2: around that, and it's not divorce that is harmful to children.
Speaker 2: It's a conflict which can actually happen in a marriage
Speaker 2: or divorce, right, and just often because of divorce is
Speaker 2: more conflict at times. So I think what really impacts
Speaker 2: kids is if you could imagine for a child, they're
Speaker 2: half their mom, they're half their dad, and so they're
Speaker 2: often quite privy to adult conversations post divorce, whether it's
Speaker 2: from another parent or you know, other family members giving
Speaker 2: their opinion, or just other things right from friends or
Speaker 2: whatever else. And that's confusing for a child when they are,
Speaker 2: you know, they've got their identity being both their both parents,
Speaker 2: and then both their parents are no longer together, and
Speaker 2: there's this kind of sense of these really kind of
Speaker 2: strong or heavy feelings, and it's hard for them to
Speaker 2: make sense of that too, and especially when they personalize
Speaker 2: that right or make that a story about them, like
Speaker 2: you know, as you probably have seen right with a
Speaker 2: lot of separated parents, and they've got different ideas about parenting,
Speaker 2: They've got different ideas about what should happen in their house.
Speaker 2: And then there's sometimes elements of you know, trying to
Speaker 2: keep what we determine as consistency for kids. But if anything,
Speaker 2: it creates more conflicts, right because one parents may be
Speaker 2: trying to say that their way is a better way
Speaker 2: or vice versa, and so kids are trying to figure
Speaker 2: out like who side do I go on? Mum or doubt?
Speaker 2: And I think the biggest thing that we can do
Speaker 2: for kids is you just ever a mum and a doubt,
Speaker 2: Like they're not in competition, right, like I'm not in
Speaker 2: a condition with the other parent, vice versa. And the
Speaker 2: more that I think parents can actually really advocate this
Speaker 2: to kids and more than that drops and they're like,
Speaker 2: I don't need to pick a side. I can love
Speaker 2: both mom and doubt, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I feel like, I mean, I don't know
Speaker 1: you're the expert in this, and I've never even been married,
Speaker 1: So take what I'm about to say with a grain
Speaker 1: of salt as a a casual observer. But there are
Speaker 1: definitely times when one or the other or both try
Speaker 1: to turn the kids again to the other parent. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's the saddest shit of all time to me, because
Speaker 1: to me, that's just the parent making it all about themselves.
Speaker 2: Definitely, I think it's one of the most harmful, sorry,
Speaker 2: things that they can do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, why why is that? I mean, look, I
Speaker 1: mean and let's okay, let's just say and remember everyone,
Speaker 1: this is just a conversation. This is not therapy, this
Speaker 1: is not advice. Is to people having a chat. But like,
Speaker 1: all right, let's say sometimes one of the parents is
Speaker 1: let's just say, not a great human, right, or you know,
Speaker 1: whichever one lets somebody's like a real problem. Well I
Speaker 1: get it. But you know, if we're talking about a
Speaker 1: lot of marriages where for whatever reason, it just falls apart,
Speaker 1: they fall out of love, it's not going great. And
Speaker 1: you know, but then when you see and I've seen it,
Speaker 1: and even with people that I've known, where one or
Speaker 1: the other or both are trying to poison the mind
Speaker 1: of the child against the other parent, am like, what
Speaker 1: the fuck are you doing? Like what are you what
Speaker 1: are you doing? Like what is your intention here? Like
Speaker 1: what do you think the upside of this is and
Speaker 1: again I'm not trying to judge anyone, and people are
Speaker 1: listening to this gun you wouldn't fucking know. I know,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm asking the questions, but it just
Speaker 1: to me that that like using kids almost as pawns
Speaker 1: in a like a human chest gain to go some
Speaker 1: kind of fucking leverage.
Speaker 2: It very much is. And you know, I think a
Speaker 2: perfect example of this, and you know it's definitely a
Speaker 2: sensitive topic, right, but let's say there is a say
Speaker 2: this infidelity, Okay, so let's just say as a mum,
Speaker 2: and then the dad, there's a you know, he cheated,
Speaker 2: for example, a lot of the time, unless sure, he
Speaker 2: stays with women a lot of the time. And I
Speaker 2: hear this from a lot, you know, being a therapist
Speaker 2: for mums where they've come in and they've like, he's
Speaker 2: a cheater. He's not a good dad because he's a cheater. Right,
Speaker 2: He's broken up this family and the kids need to
Speaker 2: know what he's like, and he's creating this new woman
Speaker 2: around and you know it's impacting them and you can
Speaker 2: see it's it's definitely their own unresolved issues, right because
Speaker 2: if you think about it, for a lot of the
Speaker 2: reality actually, you know, sometimes for a lot of males,
Speaker 2: if they haven't taken the primary care given role, is
Speaker 2: actually having a partner probably helps them. It actually probably
Speaker 2: helps the child because the child's got another parent to
Speaker 2: bounce off, or another parent's figure to bounce off. So
Speaker 2: that's actually not the issue. And it's very normal for
Speaker 2: parents to have other partners and for children to transition
Speaker 2: with that. So that's not the issue. But what happens is,
Speaker 2: say the mum in that situation might really talk to
Speaker 2: the child about that, you know, he's picking this new
Speaker 2: woman over you. If he really loved you, guys, he
Speaker 2: would prior to as you. And so what happens is
Speaker 2: we create this unhealthy balance if the mom kind of
Speaker 2: using the children as a pseudo partner and emotionally leaning
Speaker 2: on them and talking about how that's a healthier dynamic
Speaker 2: than what the dad's doing, which is living his own
Speaker 2: life and having a partner and then obviously seeing his kids.
Speaker 2: And this actually is what she's thinking doing where she's
Speaker 2: pointing out the dad's flaws and it's hurting him, it's
Speaker 2: actually hurting the kids because that isn't a fact, right, Yes,
Speaker 2: he's got a new partner. That's a fact. And yes
Speaker 2: he's spending time with a new partner, that's a fact.
Speaker 2: But it's not a fact that he's now spending time
Speaker 2: with a partner and you know he's choosing the partner
Speaker 2: of the child. That's not the case at all. And
Speaker 2: so if we want to support children in that, we
Speaker 2: really want to help to I would say keep the
Speaker 2: parents to our relationship intact and protect it with all
Speaker 2: that we have. And so if you're the other parent
Speaker 2: on that, knowing that you might have so much anger
Speaker 2: and hate and discust in that person for what they
Speaker 2: did or whatever else that is, but that's our own issue,
Speaker 2: and you know directly relates to our relationship with them.
Speaker 2: The child wants to have a healthy relationship with their parent.
Speaker 2: They would benefit most a healthy relationship with their parent.
Speaker 2: And that has absolutely nothing to do with who they're
Speaker 2: with and who they're not and what the parent, you know,
Speaker 2: their job, they have, or anything else in their life.
Speaker 2: It's how do they emotionally respond to their child. And
Speaker 2: as the parent are the parent in that dynamic, we
Speaker 2: can go are we putting energy into running down as
Speaker 2: other parent or we're actually putting energy into how we're
Speaker 2: showing up for this child and our own relationship with
Speaker 2: this child, and what we are actually modeling for this child.
Speaker 2: And I think that's where we take the power back
Speaker 2: for any of us. Right, And of course is hurt
Speaker 2: and pain, you know, in these kind of situations, but
Speaker 2: it's really not helpful for children when we at our
Speaker 2: own stories that run down, right, someone that.
Speaker 1: Think, I think, yeah, so I'm going to go to
Speaker 1: bat for the women who that happens to. But I
Speaker 1: totally understand. I'm not disagreeing, but I think what happens,
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know. I've been on the outside
Speaker 1: looking in, so it's like I've never played netball, but
Speaker 1: I've trained elite netballers, so I've done a lot of
Speaker 1: watch of netball. I've trained national and international level netballers,
Speaker 1: so I have a pretty good understanding even though I've
Speaker 1: never played. Now, Similarly, I've been on the outside and
Speaker 1: up close of many of these breakups and breakdowns with
Speaker 1: people on both sides cheating, by the way, and I
Speaker 1: think that that firstly, let's just go with your case, guy,
Speaker 1: cheated ladies, you know, understandably fucking wild and like I've
Speaker 1: had women say to me the moment that he decided
Speaker 1: to put his dick over there, well, he chose her
Speaker 1: over the kids. And I understand that anger, and I
Speaker 1: even understand that psychology. I understand that mindset, but I
Speaker 1: think sometimes they're giving the guy far more intellectual credit
Speaker 1: than he deserves. He just literally wasn't thinking And did
Speaker 1: he do the wrong thing? Yes, And is he a
Speaker 1: prick for doing that? Yes, and all that stuff, and
Speaker 1: I get it. But also you go, well, you know,
Speaker 1: for the next fifty years or whatever, he's still going
Speaker 1: to be their dad, and I don't know that. And
Speaker 1: I understand the desire to punish him, yes, or her,
Speaker 1: whatever the case may be. But yeah, I think the
Speaker 1: real thing is not how do I make him suffer?
Speaker 1: But how do I give my children the best possible
Speaker 1: chance of being healthy, functional kids? What does that look like? Yeah,
Speaker 1: but as this is coming out of my mouth, I
Speaker 1: almost feel fucking unqual. I am unqualified. But it's it's
Speaker 1: so complicated, Sam, because like it's emotional, it's psychological, it's practical,
Speaker 1: it's financial, it's it's you know, there are so many
Speaker 1: very and so many kind of intersections that bump into
Speaker 1: each other. And I also know couples that have broken
Speaker 1: up and it's from day one almost it's been pretty good,
Speaker 1: not even a drama.
Speaker 2: And see, this is what's really hard. Like you said,
Speaker 2: there is so complex and often people are struggling with
Speaker 2: things that we can't tell from the outside, right. You know,
Speaker 2: we might think it's, say in that case, infidelity, but
Speaker 2: there's actually coercive control or domestic violence or anything like that.
Speaker 2: And so what we look at a response to a
Speaker 2: situation we kind of don't know, right or what is
Speaker 2: a lead up to that? This is what's really hard.
Speaker 2: But I think say, in this situation, you know that
Speaker 2: woman deserves to have a partner that values and cherishes
Speaker 2: her and has to say morals as her and values.
Speaker 2: And so when you look at it from that perspective,
Speaker 2: I would say it's doing her a favor, not just
Speaker 2: her kids, but going do why Yes, I'm going to
Speaker 2: be angry and I'm going to be grieving and processing,
Speaker 2: but ultimately, what do I want from my life? Because
Speaker 2: I don't want to be bitter and resentful?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: You know for this women, she would want to live
Speaker 2: a life that is actually you know, aligned with her
Speaker 2: and getting the love that she receives and being able to,
Speaker 2: like you said, model something of that for her children.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think that there's so much stages that
Speaker 2: we don't see with separations and and grieving and all
Speaker 2: of that. But I think it's I think there are
Speaker 2: ways where we can be able to acknowledge that hurt
Speaker 2: and that pain and that process but going hey, like
Speaker 2: this is this is the impact and what do we
Speaker 2: do about it? How do we get everyone to be
Speaker 2: able to get the support that they need acknowledging everyone's
Speaker 2: pain and hurden feelings in that situation.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, do the kids ever blame themselves for what
Speaker 1: mom and dad are doing? Do they do they ever
Speaker 1: feel like they're the problem?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think kids do internalize that because I think
Speaker 2: sometimes they may attribute their behavior right as a you know,
Speaker 2: if only I didn't do this bit, then that that
Speaker 2: would be a problem. And I think what happens when
Speaker 2: children are dealing with parents that they have to kind
Speaker 2: of walk on eggshells around emotionally or they feel emotionally
Speaker 2: responsible for then yeah, they're going to kind of mask
Speaker 2: it and they're going to be like, oh, mom and
Speaker 2: Dad's got too much going on I'm okay, I'm fine, like,
Speaker 2: don't worry about me. You know, you guys have enough
Speaker 2: on your plate kind of thing, and we don't want
Speaker 2: that either. So when we see children struggling again, you know,
Speaker 2: we can look at it from a way off. This
Speaker 2: is not great and we need to do something about it,
Speaker 2: but we can also look at it as a way
Speaker 2: of going, wow, this is great that the children the
Speaker 2: child feels safe enough to either tell us that show
Speaker 2: us that it gives us something to work with, and
Speaker 2: we want that for kids. We don't want kids to
Speaker 2: bottle all in and for this to come up much
Speaker 2: later in an explosive way. We want to be able
Speaker 2: to know about this so we can help them process
Speaker 2: that too, and we're the only ones in that environment
Speaker 2: as well as a child therapist. There's only so much
Speaker 2: I can do in a therapy room with a child
Speaker 2: where I'm talking about these things and then they go
Speaker 2: back into the conflicts.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: We want parents to actually understand the lens of this
Speaker 2: is kind of where the needle mover is. You know,
Speaker 2: this doesn't matter as much, but this go all in
Speaker 2: on that let the other stuff go right. Good enough
Speaker 2: is good enough for the other stuff, but this is
Speaker 2: kind of the area that you really want to target,
Speaker 2: for example, that's going to be the most impactful or
Speaker 2: the needle mover in this situation.
Speaker 1: Hm. Wow, that is super interesting. What about let's just
Speaker 1: step back to where we were fifteen or twenty minutes ago,
Speaker 1: about you going away and you're feeling a bit guilty,
Speaker 1: not so much this time, and then understanding that and
Speaker 1: you know the dynamics around you know, as a parent,
Speaker 1: you want to protect your kid, love your kid. You
Speaker 1: don't want bad shit to happen to them. You don't
Speaker 1: want them to feel lonely or abandoned or all of
Speaker 1: that stuff. Right. But then I guess at the other
Speaker 1: end of the scale, and I'm talking, as you know,
Speaker 1: just an old bloke who doesn't really have any experience,
Speaker 1: but as an observer, I feel like, you know, I've
Speaker 1: worked with lots of parents and their kids when I
Speaker 1: owned gyms, where there would be kids that would turn
Speaker 1: up to the gym with their dad or their mum
Speaker 1: it's still workout or and some of those kids were
Speaker 1: so fucking spoiled, right yeah, and so molly coddled and
Speaker 1: so much. I don't know what the term is helicopter parenting,
Speaker 1: where like the kid was micro managed their emotions, they're
Speaker 1: everything what they They couldn't swing on the playground, they
Speaker 1: couldn't climb a tree, they couldn't talk to anyone, They
Speaker 1: couldn't you know, I'm like, what's the consequence of I
Speaker 1: don't know if there's a better term. You tell me
Speaker 1: the term, but it seems to me like, you know,
Speaker 1: parents that are hovering or helicopter parents, or where they're
Speaker 1: trying to micro manage every fucking moment of the kid's
Speaker 1: day so that the kid doesn't ever fall down, or
Speaker 1: ever get their feelings hurt, or ever have a bad experience,
Speaker 1: or ever have to deal with any kind of challenge
Speaker 1: or surely that's a developmental roadblock or speed hunt for
Speaker 1: the kid, because surely we need to Like, I went
Speaker 1: through a fair bit of shit when I was a kid,
Speaker 1: not horrible, but uncomfortable enough, and I think for the
Speaker 1: most part it helped me build understanding and awareness and
Speaker 1: resilience and problem solve in real time and how to
Speaker 1: avoid shit and how to connect with people. And like,
Speaker 1: I think, obviously there's you know, it's dose dependent and
Speaker 1: it's context dependent, But what about that how do we
Speaker 1: know how much to protect and how much to kind
Speaker 1: of get the fuck out of the way.
Speaker 2: Is there an exact science to that though, when you
Speaker 2: think about it, how subjective is that you know? And
Speaker 2: that's to be honest, that's a difficulty, and that's only
Speaker 2: something that you know. This is something that we need
Speaker 2: to continuously work on, and I will always be working
Speaker 2: on this. Right Where is that kind of balance between
Speaker 2: the giving the support but knowing when to back away,
Speaker 2: knowing when to step in? And I think a lot
Speaker 2: of the time we live in a society where we
Speaker 2: can be I think too centered around that where it's
Speaker 2: like you've got mums staying at home and they think
Speaker 2: they need to be present twenty four seven, and then
Speaker 2: they're not, and then they feel guilty and they're trying to,
Speaker 2: like you said, micro manage their children's experiences versus kind
Speaker 2: of taking a step back and going, how do I not,
Speaker 2: you know, send my three year old outside and shut
Speaker 2: the door, but how do I create safe spaces where
Speaker 2: like there's daycare centers and things like that where my
Speaker 2: child can be there for a little bit and have
Speaker 2: somebody else be able to you know, they're seeing other
Speaker 2: kids you know, test things and little risky kind of
Speaker 2: fun climbing, you know, frames or whatever, and I'm backing
Speaker 2: away and I'm doing my own thing, and then I
Speaker 2: come back with them, and then they get the experience
Speaker 2: of me and they come together with me. So I think,
Speaker 2: I think the question isn't so much of you know,
Speaker 2: what is this exact science, but kind of going how
Speaker 2: do I notice when I'm actually getting anxious about it?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: And how do I step back? But then also how
Speaker 2: do I kind of be there emotionally and create space
Speaker 2: and intention for that? And that's what I love about play,
Speaker 2: especially when you say therapeutically, it is designed for kids
Speaker 2: to feel seen and valued and heard and loved, and
Speaker 2: it's specific skills around that. But then outside that you
Speaker 2: can kind of really back off a bit because you
Speaker 2: know you've got that intention. So what you were saying
Speaker 2: around the gym situation, I specifically use those play therapy
Speaker 2: tools that we teach parents with my kids when they
Speaker 2: were younger, and I go, okay, so if I'm going
Speaker 2: to you know, section off this time and there to
Speaker 2: do that, I can really back off the other times
Speaker 2: and I can actually focus on my workout and not
Speaker 2: feel guilty or for it all feel guilty, but do
Speaker 2: the workout anyway, and I can focus on cleaning the
Speaker 2: house and I can focus on just reading and relaxing
Speaker 2: because I've got this potent, condensed time where I'm going
Speaker 2: to be emotionally available with my child and I'm actually
Speaker 2: going to be present, And I find that to be
Speaker 2: so much more effective than when I was trying to
Speaker 2: do it all all day, Like it just doesn't work.
Speaker 2: We kind of give a deluded self to everything, don't
Speaker 2: weigh when we try and multitask like that. So yeah,
Speaker 2: I think to sum it up, I think it's us
Speaker 2: being conscious of it and then us putting things in
Speaker 2: place where we get the balance for the kids and
Speaker 2: for us right where they've got other spaces, they've got
Speaker 2: different experiences and we don't feel the need to micromanage
Speaker 2: every single part of their life. And for everything that
Speaker 2: we think it's taking away from its giving every time
Speaker 2: away from us. Isn't. They're not losing out. If anything,
Speaker 2: they're gaining what it's like to feel safe and be
Speaker 2: guided by another adult. And that's really great to them
Speaker 2: because we're not their whole world. Unfortunately. I mean, I
Speaker 2: would very much love to be, but the reality is
Speaker 2: they're going to go and they're going to live their
Speaker 2: lives away from us, and they need to be able
Speaker 2: to learn to trust other adults and spaces and themselves too.
Speaker 1: And I think also they need to be able to
Speaker 1: turn up to kinder or school or whatever and meet
Speaker 1: other kids and have conversations and interactions and learn how
Speaker 1: to fall down and get back up, either literally or metaphorically,
Speaker 1: and learn how to build trust and rapport even though
Speaker 1: they don't know what they're doing. But over time, you
Speaker 1: know where kids just start to figure it out. And
Speaker 1: you know, like kids need to be given opportunities to
Speaker 1: solve problems without being told what to do, so they
Speaker 1: can use their creativity and their critical thinking and develop
Speaker 1: problem solving skills and interact with, as you said, with
Speaker 1: different people. And you know, when they're teenagers and well before,
Speaker 1: but as they get older, they're going to interact with
Speaker 1: people who are really nice and people who are not
Speaker 1: so nice, and people who really care about them, and
Speaker 1: people who don't really care about them, and people who
Speaker 1: they might need to be a bit wary around, and
Speaker 1: people that they can completely trust. Because this is the
Speaker 1: practical reality of humans, you know, So if like I
Speaker 1: I a friend, do I say it?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 1: God, doesn't matter. No one knows what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1: But somebody I know, really I think just and love
Speaker 1: their kid, but just that kid was wrapped in cotton
Speaker 1: wool to they went till they went to university, so
Speaker 1: you know, mom and dad onther thing, and then just
Speaker 1: very little freedom, very controlled, very strict, very you know,
Speaker 1: and no nothing, not a quarter of a glass of
Speaker 1: beer and not. Then from that to oh, now you're
Speaker 1: an adult, you've got a license, you can drink, you
Speaker 1: can vote, And the first two years were just fucking
Speaker 1: mayhem bad Yeah, because it's like, well, they never and
Speaker 1: it was like somebody had just let a lion out
Speaker 1: of a cage and trying to control that eighteen to
Speaker 1: twenty year old. It's like, I, you know, I didn't
Speaker 1: say it, but I'm like, yeah, you kind of did
Speaker 1: this to yourself because you never let that kid do anything.
Speaker 1: And now that one they don't live at home, right,
Speaker 1: they moved.
Speaker 2: Out, And I think about why that actually had and
Speaker 2: I feel like it's the stories that we attached to
Speaker 2: a lot of moms, you know, when they make their
Speaker 2: child their whole identity. It's like, well, my child doing
Speaker 2: well is me doing well, and my child solving problems
Speaker 2: from the get go is me doing well. And so
Speaker 2: they almost like micromanage so that there's just really good
Speaker 2: results from the get go because it makes them feel
Speaker 2: the sense of competency. But like you said, what ends
Speaker 2: up happening is they don't get the necessary learnings from
Speaker 2: actually experience and failing and trying again and problem solving
Speaker 2: that they need, and so when they're actually left to
Speaker 2: their own devices, they're like, I don't know how to
Speaker 2: be because you know, my parents just kind of created
Speaker 2: this perfect existence for me so that they could feel
Speaker 2: really great. And I noticed that honestly with a lot
Speaker 2: of mums where they talk about, you know, traveling and
Speaker 2: you know, working and living this really balanced, full life,
Speaker 2: and they're like, but then I can parent and I've
Speaker 2: just got my child, and I feel anxious leaving them
Speaker 2: for an hour and this is all I do now.
Speaker 2: It's almost like they've regressed because of that anxiety, and
Speaker 2: then they put all that energy just into their kid
Speaker 2: and they're like, this just has to be perfect. And
Speaker 2: so I feel like what actually helps us create that
Speaker 2: in our children is us doing that first. So the
Speaker 2: more experiences I give myself off problem solving and living
Speaker 2: life and living a full life, and you know, creating
Speaker 2: space to fill my needs is actually what supports me
Speaker 2: to do that for my child, right, Because you think
Speaker 2: about it, we shut down our life. What else do
Speaker 2: we have to focus on If we're not getting emotional
Speaker 2: input from other places that support us, we're just expecting
Speaker 2: that from us. We're giving it all to our child,
Speaker 2: but then we're expecting it back for our child. We're
Speaker 2: kind of saying you need to be here to fulfill me,
Speaker 2: really without directly saying it, because I've got nothing else
Speaker 2: that's fulfilling me at the moment. I've shut down everything
Speaker 2: of my life. That's not fair on parents, and it's
Speaker 2: not fair on kids either. It's a huge bed.
Speaker 1: And I would absolutely think that there would be people
Speaker 1: that would think that, would judge you poorly for going
Speaker 1: a way three weeks.
Speaker 2: Oh one hundred percent. I would judge myself poorly for
Speaker 2: doing that. If you had asked me before I became
Speaker 2: a pair, I would be the worst critic on that.
Speaker 2: And what's interesting is the people what I found, right
Speaker 2: is we can either sit there and judge, or we
Speaker 2: can look at it from an experimental point of view
Speaker 2: and really taking an honest look. If if you're a parent
Speaker 2: and you're judging that right, taking an honest look, do
Speaker 2: you actually enjoy holidays with your child? And do you
Speaker 2: actually enjoy holidays with yourself? Like how did holidays feel?
Speaker 2: Because if we were to take an honest look about that,
Speaker 2: a lot of moms say to me, I went on
Speaker 2: a holiday and I come back even feeling more exhausted.
Speaker 2: And the only thing that's stopping them from having a
Speaker 2: holiday by themselves is because they feel guilty. Not because
Speaker 2: they wouldn't have fun, not because it wouldn't recharge them,
Speaker 2: not because they can't financially, you know, find the resources
Speaker 2: and the support for that. It's because the story that
Speaker 2: they attached to it. And imagine if we create another
Speaker 2: story where we're going on a holiday and we're going
Speaker 2: to come back, you know, with experiences and a sense
Speaker 2: of fulfillment, that actually is going to benefit our child
Speaker 2: and our child gets this opportunity to bond with someone
Speaker 2: other than us, and then we're going to have this
Speaker 2: with our child. Like I think it's the stories attached
Speaker 2: to the judgments and our perception of it. And I
Speaker 2: see that. I see that in ways of the people
Speaker 2: who do create this space and how they viewed it
Speaker 2: versus people who don't. But I think what was a
Speaker 2: real game changer for me is just experiencing it. I
Speaker 2: challenge any kind of parent, just just experience it, even
Speaker 2: if it was one night, two days. And once that
Speaker 2: initial anxiety goes down, when you start to experience what
Speaker 2: it's like to sit with yourself and how much you
Speaker 2: learn about yourself and the thinking and the clarity that
Speaker 2: you get from that, that's all kind of the proof
Speaker 2: that you need to keep going in that direction.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: So interesting, like I've talked about this, at this moment,
Speaker 1: you don't know this, right, so I'll try not to
Speaker 1: drag it on. But so years and years ago, a
Speaker 1: lot of years ago, I had all these businesses, right,
Speaker 1: I had bricks and mortar businesses at over one hundred staff,
Speaker 1: and it was just my life was busy. I would
Speaker 1: just literally drive from one I had three gyms and
Speaker 1: two other kind of health related businesses, and I would
Speaker 1: just drive from one to the other, or I would
Speaker 1: stay at one half day. And I had a lot
Speaker 1: of moving parts, lots of staff, lots of bills, lots
Speaker 1: of problems to solve, just lots of shit to do right,
Speaker 1: which was and I was very grateful for it. But
Speaker 1: my life was from when I got out of bed
Speaker 1: to when I went to bed basically work and about work.
Speaker 1: And in the middle of all of this, and all
Speaker 1: of my businesses were going somewhere between okay and really good.
Speaker 1: So I was very blessed, very lucky, very grateful, Like
Speaker 1: there was no I didn't take it for granted. But
Speaker 1: in the middle of all of this stuff, Sam, I
Speaker 1: wasn't particularly happy, and I'm like, why the fuck am
Speaker 1: I not happy? You know, like, you do not have
Speaker 1: any reason to be unhappy, So get your shit together.
Speaker 1: And it's so funny you talk to yourself like that.
Speaker 1: It doesn't It's like, well, you just feel what you feel, bro.
Speaker 1: You're You're not trying to be sad, You're not trying
Speaker 1: to be depressed, You're not trying to be anxious. And
Speaker 1: I couldn't anyway I was. I felt like I was
Speaker 1: heading towards a bit of a meltdown, and I can't
Speaker 1: remember exactly what precipitated it, but I went one day,
Speaker 1: I went into one of my gym's my main gym,
Speaker 1: which was a great, big that was kind of the
Speaker 1: epicenter of my businesses, ten thousand square foot, the biggest
Speaker 1: personal training center in the Southern hemisphere. Like people everywhere,
Speaker 1: trainers everywhere, clients everywhere, you know. And I went into
Speaker 1: my then pa or center manager. I said to her,
Speaker 1: I'm going to go away for ten days, right. I
Speaker 1: just made this snap decision, which I never did. I
Speaker 1: would not go away for a day. I'd feel bad, guilty, conflicted.
Speaker 1: And I went away for ten days just to be
Speaker 1: with myself and try to figure out what was going on,
Speaker 1: Like why I'm fit, I'm healthy, I'm making good money,
Speaker 1: my businesses are successful. I'm not a moron, I'm not
Speaker 1: a genius, but I'm not like this so much good.
Speaker 1: But in the middle of all of the good, I
Speaker 1: didn't feel good right, and I wanted to understand that.
Speaker 1: So I went away and I spent ten days by myself.
Speaker 1: I didn't talk to anyone other than maybe to order
Speaker 1: a coffee, but I didn't have a conversation with anyone.
Speaker 1: I didn't talk to anyone in any of my businesses,
Speaker 1: didn't talk to my staff. She had my PI had
Speaker 1: one directive, and that is I didn't even have a
Speaker 1: cell phone or mobile phone. She knew where I was staying,
Speaker 1: she knew where I was staying, what room, and I said,
Speaker 1: don't call me unless like it's a fucking emergency, right,
Speaker 1: So she didn't call me. And for about the first
Speaker 1: two or three days, I felt absolutely worse, like worse.
Speaker 1: I just wanted to come back, and I was lonely,
Speaker 1: and I was I fucking cried. I was I had
Speaker 1: all this, all this shit right. And it took me
Speaker 1: about four or five days to try and I was
Speaker 1: trying to understand me. I was trying to figure out
Speaker 1: what do I want to do with the rest of
Speaker 1: my life? Is what I'm doing? My purpose and all
Speaker 1: of these deep and meaningful questions. But it really took
Speaker 1: me to get away from the thing physically and emotionally
Speaker 1: and geographically and psychologically. I needed to get away to
Speaker 1: get a level of perspective and insight and understanding where
Speaker 1: I could think clearly. Like when I was in the
Speaker 1: middle of it, I couldn't really see it. I needed
Speaker 1: to be away from it. And yeah, I think sometimes
Speaker 1: when you are just in this continuum of operating system
Speaker 1: and get up, do this, do all this shit on autopilot,
Speaker 1: get it up, get up against myrow, do it all again.
Speaker 1: And basically that's the last three thousand days of your life.
Speaker 1: You really do need to kind of get away from
Speaker 1: your own life a bit, if you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: to figure the fuck out what's going on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that that you went through that, because
Speaker 2: exactly what it feels like.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: Often it's just that resistance when you first do it,
Speaker 2: and then you go through all those fields and then
Speaker 2: you come away with being able to think clearly. And
Speaker 2: I think we underestimate how powerful our ability is to
Speaker 2: think clearly, and then how much that will actually benefit
Speaker 2: when we go back into our life and we make
Speaker 2: the necessary changes or shifts that we want to make.
Speaker 2: So it's kind of life giving to kids, not necessarily
Speaker 2: taking away. And if we're able to shift in that,
Speaker 2: I think that's more powerful than just trying to like
Speaker 2: squish and support, like someone tell me the right thing
Speaker 2: to do. It's almost like I probably do know what
Speaker 2: the right thing to do is for my life. I
Speaker 2: just need space away from it, or I can stop
Speaker 2: off that hamster wheel and take a break and take
Speaker 2: a breath. And then gain some perspective. So yeah, I
Speaker 2: think it's how we frame it, right, and if we
Speaker 2: know that that is actually a way that we can
Speaker 2: kind of recharge and reset almost, we would do it
Speaker 2: more often in little ways, and we would hopefully model
Speaker 2: this for kids that when they become adults and parents,
Speaker 2: that they don't feel that heavy guilt that we do
Speaker 2: in this generation because we haven't had that model to us,
Speaker 2: and if anything, that they will ye be able to
Speaker 2: do that more in their lives.
Speaker 1: All right, So I have one question that I want
Speaker 1: to finish with, and I'm being completely honest with you
Speaker 1: and the listeners. This is a real question about a
Speaker 1: real person. Obviously, I can't mention, I can't give any
Speaker 1: details other than the like, you know, boy girl age,
Speaker 1: da da da, but this so I'll just say that
Speaker 1: this is somebody friend of mine. Friends of mine have
Speaker 1: got a child that like great kid, by the way,
Speaker 1: but just for a range of reasons fear, anxiety, stuff,
Speaker 1: really doesn't want to kind of wants to go to school,
Speaker 1: but freaks out now like something happened. And I'll just
Speaker 1: tell you they're around twelve, right, and there's just a
Speaker 1: So it's been a real struggle for them two you
Speaker 1: know like that that I guess that balancing act of
Speaker 1: you know, being loving and sportive an understanding. But they don't,
Speaker 1: you know, they don't want their child to spend the
Speaker 1: next four years at home, right, yeah, any like I
Speaker 1: don't know, I don't need a solution, but any thoughts
Speaker 1: around that or any ideas or help around that?
Speaker 2: Is that primary school or high school where.
Speaker 1: You're just starting high school? I think?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And what has the child said about their reasons
Speaker 2: for not wanting to go?
Speaker 1: I think I I just think they had an experience
Speaker 1: that wasn't great, and so now they're looking at a
Speaker 1: new school, is my understanding. And yeah, there's there's a
Speaker 1: lot maybe because of past experiences. You know, there's just
Speaker 1: a lot of fear and apprehension, like a lot, like
Speaker 1: whole lot, like this kid does not want to go
Speaker 1: to school.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think when we look at anxiety, right,
Speaker 2: we often idea fault response is avoidance. It's like it
Speaker 2: just feels too much and I can't handle it. I
Speaker 2: need to avoid it, and that's what strengthens the anxiety.
Speaker 2: And so I think about it as often as parents,
Speaker 2: You know, you want to get rid of the anxiety,
Speaker 2: and you're trying to target that and convince them otherwise
Speaker 2: rather than allowing space for it and letting them process
Speaker 2: it and kind of it, you know, being able to
Speaker 2: just slowly get better. And I think the best way
Speaker 2: that we can do that is that kind of connection
Speaker 2: as well, and that acknowledgment around it. But with those
Speaker 2: boundaries of kind of going, okay, we can't really control
Speaker 2: other kids at school, right, we can control what we do.
Speaker 2: It's like that locus of control. And so in the
Speaker 2: morning's right, especially with that age, you know, what you
Speaker 2: want to eat? You know, here are some options for breakfast,
Speaker 2: Let's do that. Do you want to do something in
Speaker 2: the morning together? How do you want this morning to
Speaker 2: routine to look like? We can work on that. You
Speaker 2: have to go to school. It's kind of you know,
Speaker 2: non negotiable. Here, what's your plan? You know, you can
Speaker 2: even talk through plans, right if they're worried about that,
Speaker 2: you know that sounds really tough that you were sitting
Speaker 2: by yourself. What did you do, like, you know, kind
Speaker 2: of helping them with that problem solving what are your options?
Speaker 2: But being able to sit with how that feels. We're
Speaker 2: not trying to talk the matterfit. Often we think, yeah,
Speaker 2: but you know, we like Q and it doesn't really matter.
Speaker 2: No one likes you. You kind of want to reframe straight
Speaker 2: away without going wow, that would really star like sitting alone,
Speaker 2: that would feel pretty lonely. And then again after school,
Speaker 2: right being able to engage them and stuff that they love,
Speaker 2: because no one wants to go to school. I mean
Speaker 2: a lot of people don't want to go to school
Speaker 2: as teenagers. Don't know, I didn't you know, interested in
Speaker 2: these generic subjects. But every child has a thing, a
Speaker 2: thing that they really good at, a thing that they love.
Speaker 2: Is it gaming, even, is it sports? Is it whatever
Speaker 2: that is? And the more opportunities that you can kind
Speaker 2: of make for things that they love cut filling again
Speaker 2: after school and then that connection that they have with
Speaker 2: you as well a bit later on in their evening
Speaker 2: and helps ground them. So I think if it as
Speaker 2: a you know, the anxious, but it's so draining, it's
Speaker 2: draining their cut being, you know, doing stuff that they
Speaker 2: don't like and that they're worried about and they're fearful off.
Speaker 2: So how can we actually add stuff back in the
Speaker 2: cup and so grounding them in what they can control
Speaker 2: around that after school, before school, and then yeah, setting
Speaker 2: that non negotiable boundary that you know, school's happening, but
Speaker 2: being able to focus on what they can control, I
Speaker 2: think gives them the power back.
Speaker 1: Is this happening more than it seems like this is
Speaker 1: a thing now. I'm sure it's always been a bit
Speaker 1: of a thing, but it seems like it's a bigger
Speaker 1: thing now as kids not wanting to go to school,
Speaker 1: like actually physically be out of school.
Speaker 2: Oh and it's so hard because what we're trying to
Speaker 2: do right wh're managing anxiety is like we're trying to
Speaker 2: create these adaptations for them and going, okay, like this
Speaker 2: environment's not suited to them, how do we, you know,
Speaker 2: make it more suited And maybe it's not the right
Speaker 2: fit for them. But at the same time, then we
Speaker 2: sometimes go on that way completely where we're actually helping
Speaker 2: them avoid the situation, and that doesn't help anxiety. It
Speaker 2: makes it grow. And so then we're not putting in
Speaker 2: potentially the boundaries or letting them be in challenging situations
Speaker 2: and sitting with the anxiety but working through it. Like
Speaker 2: we're all really confused because there is no line and
Speaker 2: going how much do we adapt to this and create
Speaker 2: different alternatives for the child, and actually how much do
Speaker 2: we oh let them push through it because we know
Speaker 2: that on the other side of that, they're gaining more
Speaker 2: confidence in managing our anxiety. And there's definitely no one
Speaker 2: rule for this and one answer for this, but I
Speaker 2: think it's really important as key gives that we're constantly
Speaker 2: checking up on our anxiety and what story that we're
Speaker 2: creating around that as well, because we can really feed
Speaker 2: into it because our anxiety will naturally put our anxiety
Speaker 2: through the roof too.
Speaker 1: So one of the I wrote something before that I
Speaker 1: haven't posted yet. You know, I'm always writing crap for
Speaker 1: social media, but just I love it. I I just
Speaker 1: thought about this right now because I think it. I
Speaker 1: think it ties in a bit, and I wrote, So
Speaker 1: it's called certainty addiction. And there's just ten dot points.
Speaker 1: One humans hate uncertainty. Two Interestingly, life is uncertainty. Three
Speaker 1: much of life is beyond our control. Four the need
Speaker 1: for certainty is a problem. Five it's a self created
Speaker 1: emotional prison. Six Pursuing certainty is fear driven. Seven Preparing
Speaker 1: for uncertainty is smart. Eight it's a practical approach to survival. Nine.
Speaker 1: The answer is not an easier life. Ten, it's a
Speaker 1: more resilient and adaptable you.
Speaker 2: Definitely. I think with all of us, our difficulties in
Speaker 2: handling unsandy creates so much problems because we are often
Speaker 2: driven to gain certainty by actually making things worse for
Speaker 2: us and long run but easy in the short run
Speaker 2: just to avoid right, So we'd often take it's almost
Speaker 2: like going for the bigger goal, right, and there's a
Speaker 2: little goal, and you're like, I'll just do the little
Speaker 2: goal because I know that I can get that, versus like,
Speaker 2: do I actually go all in on this bigger goal
Speaker 2: and it may be uncert you know, I may not
Speaker 2: get it. I'm not sure. We're not really willing to
Speaker 2: back ourselves with those things, and we're willing to then
Speaker 2: settle for below mediocre, you know, or something that doesn't
Speaker 2: really yeah, benefit us in the long run because we're
Speaker 2: so scared. It's kind of like white people staying jobs
Speaker 2: for X amount of a year twenty years plus, right,
Speaker 2: they're too scared of that unsandy that comes with what
Speaker 2: if I try another job and it doesn't work out
Speaker 2: and I don't know it. They don't realize they don't
Speaker 2: really believe in their ability to adapt or to change.
Speaker 2: You know, we can make another decision elsewhere, we can
Speaker 2: you know, navigate that well.
Speaker 1: I think it's like that with personal relationships too. Sometimes
Speaker 1: people associate more danger or more risk with getting out
Speaker 1: of a relationship than staying. Okay, the relationships are two
Speaker 1: out of ten and it's kind of shitty, but a
Speaker 1: two out of ten is better than no relationship. So
Speaker 1: I'll stay in it and maybe it will somehow get better, right.
Speaker 2: Hundreds of Yeah, there's some people do and they're like,
Speaker 2: at least I know I've got somebody. What if I
Speaker 2: break up this relationship and I never find someone? And
Speaker 2: you're right, But if you hear anyone with an amazing
Speaker 2: or job that they love, or relationship that they love,
Speaker 2: or life that they love, they're going to tell you
Speaker 2: they had to sit an unsanity. They had to kind
Speaker 2: of bann down whatever bridges or life that they had
Speaker 2: in the past to be able to go and search
Speaker 2: off something else. And so when we know that that's
Speaker 2: a necessary part of the growth, we want to create
Speaker 2: those opportunities for kids where they are sitting with uncani Do.
Speaker 1: You know what I think is interesting. This just might
Speaker 1: take for what it's worth. I feel like when you
Speaker 1: really need someone, it's harder. Like that is not a
Speaker 1: good emotional or psychological place to be. Is like without
Speaker 1: being disrespectful, but that you know, you see it sometimes
Speaker 1: in people like that desperation to have a partner. But Bro,
Speaker 1: like someone I spoke to recently, I'm like, Bro, that
Speaker 1: whole desperate thing you've got going on. God bless you.
Speaker 1: I'm going to give you a cuddle, but fuck, you've
Speaker 1: got to lose that because the ladies that you're chasing,
Speaker 1: they don't want desperation as the starting point. That It's
Speaker 1: almost like without trying to pre but like the moment
Speaker 1: you don't need it, you become more attractive because you
Speaker 1: got more content. It's like if I find someone great,
Speaker 1: if I don't also great, it's good. My life is good.
Speaker 1: I'm good and I'm not you know that whole he
Speaker 1: or she completes me. No, you're already complete. You're not
Speaker 1: half of something. You know. They might they might compliment you,
Speaker 1: but they can't complete you because you are not incomplete.
Speaker 4: Oh.
Speaker 2: I think this is huge and I think a lot
Speaker 2: of people relate to that. Right where they approach these
Speaker 2: relationships with I need this to fulfill me, right, Like
Speaker 2: I'm a half person and I want to have another
Speaker 2: half person will join together. And then it becomes a
Speaker 2: not I want you, it's I need you. I can't
Speaker 2: survive without you. And that's the unhealthy codependency kind of thing.
Speaker 2: And like you said, it becomes way more attractive when
Speaker 2: you become a whole person. You're like, it's either a
Speaker 2: healthy relationship or nothing at all. Like I'm not going
Speaker 2: to settle for you know, something that's going to be
Speaker 2: damaging to my mental health or there's and then you
Speaker 2: come with that confidence and someone you're going to meet
Speaker 2: someone with that Also, I'm a whole person and I'm
Speaker 2: not going to settle for something either you know, it's
Speaker 2: going to be I'm all in or nothing at all.
Speaker 2: And I think that that is the ultimate kind of
Speaker 2: goal when you think about it, to hold people coming
Speaker 2: together and you know, I guess just magnifying the greatness
Speaker 2: rather than yeah, being like I need it.
Speaker 1: It's funny I reckon when I was in my twenties
Speaker 1: and like I was like on the same track as
Speaker 1: many people, not all people, but like I'm going to
Speaker 1: find someone, I'll get married, I'll have kids, you know,
Speaker 1: And I was probably you know, I don't think I
Speaker 1: was repulsive, right, but it was probably evident that I wanted,
Speaker 1: you know, And so it's kind of normal you go
Speaker 1: out with people. And so by the time I was,
Speaker 1: I don't know, thirty two or three, so that's fifteen
Speaker 1: years of dating and whatever. It was eighteen or seventeen
Speaker 1: or sixteen when I started, but you know, kind of
Speaker 1: serious ish dating as an adult. And then I could
Speaker 1: just got to a point where I went not not
Speaker 1: fuck relationships or fuck not not that just like, ah,
Speaker 1: I'm good, Like I'm good, I'm good. I'm like, I'm okay.
Speaker 1: You want me? Yeah, No, it's not and it's not
Speaker 1: I'm not going there the problem or I'm the problem.
Speaker 1: I'm just going it is what it is. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: not looking anymore. I'm good. I'm going to you know.
Speaker 1: But it's funny the moment that I just that was
Speaker 1: my attitude. I didn't, you know, like I got more
Speaker 1: attention than when I wanted attention.
Speaker 2: Definitely, Like you said, it's all the energy, right, the
Speaker 2: energy of I think trying to chase that. You're right,
Speaker 2: it would kind of push people away, but that kind
Speaker 2: of confidence that comes from I'm actually yeah, I feel
Speaker 2: really whole and content with what I've got, and I'm
Speaker 2: really at peace with my own life and who I
Speaker 2: am and what I bring to the table. And I'm
Speaker 2: not going to negotiate my values for anyone. That comes
Speaker 2: as a whole different level of confidence, and I think
Speaker 2: it will attract someone that also has that as well,
Speaker 2: which is what you want.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, well, so good talking to you. I'm glad
Speaker 1: you're back. I'm glad you had fun, even though clearly
Speaker 1: you're negligent. Mother, I'm just gagging. Tell people how they
Speaker 1: can connect with you and follow you and all that stuff.
Speaker 2: Yep, they can connect with me on Instagram or on
Speaker 2: my which is doctor Samcasey, on my website which is
Speaker 2: www dot dotor Samcasey dot com.
Speaker 1: Giddeup, Buttercup, Well, we appreciate you. I'm so glad you're
Speaker 1: back on board for twenty twenty six. Thank you for
Speaker 1: what you did last year. Thank you for being so
Speaker 1: generous with your knowledge and your time and your energy,
Speaker 1: and I hope you have a great year.
Speaker 2: Great thanks you too.
Speaker 1: Giddy up.