WEBVTT - #2083 I'd Probably Make a Bad Dad - Dr. Sam Casey 0:00:01.240 --> 0:00:04.280 A good a team. It's quig Afty Harp. It's the 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:08.640 ninth of January, ninth of January twenty twenty sixth as 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:11.440 I record this, we're well and truly into the new year. 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:16.200 We're up and running well more accurately in Melbourne at 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:18.040 this point in time, without trying to sound like a 0:00:18.079 --> 0:00:23.720 fucking broken record, but it is persistently Sweltering is not 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:25.759 even a good word. It's it's what. I don't know 0:00:25.800 --> 0:00:29.840 what hotter than sweltering is, but that's what it is. Now. 0:00:29.880 --> 0:00:31.280 I know that you're in the middle of the heat 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:35.239 most of the time, doctor Sam. Forty four in Melbourne 0:00:35.280 --> 0:00:40.279 yesterday and forty three today, so and really windy and 0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:44.000 lots of fires. So and we're not conditioned to it. 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:46.920 You know, that would just be unheard of for you guys. 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:50.120 Hate to reach it well now and then yeah sorry 0:00:50.159 --> 0:00:52.879 now and then it gets there. But also you know, 0:00:53.320 --> 0:00:56.920 it's like tomorrow. I think it's like today was forty four, 0:00:56.920 --> 0:01:02.640 tomorrow is like twenty three. It's just so so hey anyway. 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:05.200 Happy New Year, Happy New Year to you too. 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:08.720 Did you have a good break did you do any 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:10.960 I know the answer to this question, but our listeners 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:13.080 don't because you had a brief chat. But did you 0:01:13.120 --> 0:01:16.280 do anything for the break? Did you go away? Did 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:17.039 you have a holiday? 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:20.160 Yes? I did. I went to Argentina for a few weeks. 0:01:20.200 --> 0:01:23.520 That was amazing. And then I was in Perth visiting 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:26.440 families that was also good. So I feel like I had, 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:29.120 you know, two different kinds of holidays, right, So it 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:30.840 was kind of good. It was both cut filling but 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:33.560 in different ways. That I love doing holidays like that, 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:37.119 rather than trying to combine all the things I think about. 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:38.800 I really want to do a family holiday and I 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:40.160 will do that. And then I really want to do 0:01:40.240 --> 0:01:43.720 a holiday that is actually relaxing and I get to 0:01:43.720 --> 0:01:45.760 slow down that pace. And I got that too, So 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:46.280 it was great. 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:50.240 Now I know this because you already told me one 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:53.040 was with the kids and one was without. We'll actually 0:01:53.040 --> 0:01:55.280 come back to that in a moment, but I just 0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:58.800 you said a really interesting term, and the term was 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:03.680 cup filling. Both cup feeling but in different ways. What 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:07.800 can you I get what that means, but in what 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:11.320 ways did both of those you know, one in Argentina, 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:15.920 which seems very you know, fabulous and amazing and exotic, 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:20.040 and one in perth like differentiate between those How did 0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:20.840 they feel your cup? 0:02:21.360 --> 0:02:24.639 Yeah, so I think if you know cut filing activities 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:27.760 can it can feel contradictory at times. Right, So if 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:31.120 you think about, you know, the average working mom, we 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:33.120 we're working, and we're trying to juggle all the things, 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:35.239 our kids, a work life, and there's not so much 0:02:35.280 --> 0:02:38.400 space for us to recharge. And so when you think 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:40.359 of a holiday, you know, when you get annual leave 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:42.880 from work, you think of it as a Okay, this 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:45.400 is supposed to restore my energy to go back and work. 0:02:45.440 --> 0:02:48.480 But what generally happens when you only use your holidays 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:51.079 when your kids have holidays is you're actually just parenting 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:53.920 in another city or you're doing probably more of the 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:57.200 things at home. And so even though you view being 0:02:57.240 --> 0:02:59.160 with your kids as cup feeling, you actually come back 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:01.480 even more to plead. And so when I think about 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:03.800 the things that fill up my cup, I think, you know, 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:07.120 I love to spend time alone and traveling and sitting 0:03:07.160 --> 0:03:09.919 with myself and going at my own pace and giving 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:12.400 myself what I need. And of course I also like 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:14.160 to be with my kids and do fun things and 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:17.240 pick up that pace. And so yeah, the Argentina trip 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:20.720 because it was without the kids. It was really it's 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:23.119 actually uncomfortable, I think as a mom, when you're so 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:25.440 used to focusing on others and taking care of others, 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:27.560 to have a holiday where you're like, what do I 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:29.280 want to do? What do I want to eat? Where 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:32.200 do I want to go? And you know, it's kind 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:34.440 of relearning to trust myself and listen to my cues, 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:38.040 and that feels very restorative. And then because I've had that, right, 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:40.800 I come back and I'm in the mode of having, 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:42.560 you know, the kids around and doing all, you know, 0:03:42.600 --> 0:03:44.760 the kid kind of related activities. But I know what 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:46.800 the purpose of that is. That purpose isn't actually a 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:49.000 relaxing holiday for me. It is to spend time with 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:51.200 the kids, which is cut feeling. And so I think 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:53.680 it's really important. You know, we often as moms try 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:55.800 and multitask all the things, and I think I'm very 0:03:55.880 --> 0:03:57.680 much about being present and I love being able to 0:03:57.720 --> 0:03:59.600 be present with myself and present with my kids, and 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:01.480 sometimes that means to separate the two. 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:06.360 Yeah, I feel like, you know, shout out to mums, 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:08.160 and I'm not just saying that because you're a mum 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:10.520 and we're talking about mums are so great. My mum's 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:13.760 eighty six and she's she's still a mum though she 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:17.320 still thinks like a mum. I know that sounds dumby. 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:17.840 No, does it? 0:04:18.560 --> 0:04:22.720 No? No, But it's like she's My mom's really religious, right, 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:25.240 So my mum's big thing. Like when I've got stuff on, 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:28.640 she just prays for me and she's like, I've been 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:31.400 praying for you today. I'm like, thank you, Mom, Like 0:04:31.480 --> 0:04:34.440 that's her thing. And she'll you know, when I like 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:37.520 I said, she's eighty six, I'll go up there and 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:40.520 she will have been cooking food through the day, put 0:04:40.520 --> 0:04:43.520 them in little freezer bags and packs and put them 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:47.080 in the freezer. So she's still cooking for me, and 0:04:47.120 --> 0:04:50.520 she's still worrying because I look gaunt or you look skinnish, 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:53.560 tells me, I look that. She's not trying to be insulting. 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:57.400 She's been language seems right, yeah, yeah, her love language 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:01.200 is Yeah, my mum is not a big hugger or 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:05.480 cuddler or but she has started to say I love you, 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:08.640 which she never did, right because she had a very tough, 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:12.880 tough childhood and that just wasn't part of her childhood. 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:16.279 Experience or vocabulary or you know, she didn't have a 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:18.840 mom because her mom died giving birth to her right, 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:23.359 so all of these things. But it's so funny. I 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:25.800 look at my mum and among all the myriad of 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:29.680 intersecting variables, you know, the you know, the physiological and 0:05:29.720 --> 0:05:32.640 the cognitive and the social and the hearing and the 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:36.160 you know, all of the decline that's happening, as it 0:05:36.200 --> 0:05:38.960 does with everybody. In the middle of all of that, 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:42.279 she's still a mum worrying about her son. Like it 0:05:42.560 --> 0:05:44.080 just doesn't go away. 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:46.160 It doesn't stop. And you know, it's interesting. A lot 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:47.800 of moms say, I just need to get through, you know, 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:49.279 until my kids get to school, and then I'm going 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:51.159 to be able to rest. And then they have the 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:53.320 worries about the school situation, and then they think for 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:55.880 high school and then the adult and beinger grandparents. So 0:05:55.920 --> 0:05:56.880 you're right, it doesn't end. 0:05:57.560 --> 0:06:00.479 Yeah, yeah, And it doesn't matter what I what I 0:06:00.560 --> 0:06:03.800 tell I go, Mum, I'm great, I'm literally great. There's 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:07.159 nothing to worry about, you know, and she doesn't. It 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:07.840 doesn't change. 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:14.400 It's yeah, it's what's the when you're away from your kids, 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:18.160 and maybe you could extrapolate, well maybe speak for you, 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:20.719 but also more broadly for all of the parents that 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:21.279 you work. 0:06:21.120 --> 0:06:23.960 With when you're away from your kids. And it's three weeks, 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:27.440 which I guess is a huge amount of time compared 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:29.599 to you know, like you would get a few hours 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:32.279 away from your kids and then feel like a mini holiday, right, 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:36.240 so to have three weeks And of course you're doing 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:38.159 the right thing, and of course that's not a bad 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:41.000 thing on any level. But is there just because you're 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:45.560 a mum, is there any guilt or any kind of 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:49.839 feelings that are negative feelings associated with not being with them? 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:52.360 Yeah, so interesting you asked that, because you know, if 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:55.599 I look back a few years ago, I had so 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:59.960 much anxiety about leaving my child at all, like I 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:02.120 just in general, sorry, not even sorry, not even a 0:07:02.160 --> 0:07:04.520 few years back when I first became a mum, the 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:07.680 thought of that just made me not you know, like 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:10.200 completely shut down. And I remember the first flight I 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:13.280 took away from my child, and it was like a 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:15.200 medical appointment because I lived in you know, wook book 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:17.400 and I had what I felt like it was an 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:20.200 anxiety attack on the plane, like I just I struggled, 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:22.960 And for me, that was an indication of I need 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:25.160 to do this more. This is not healthy, this is 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:27.800 not good for him or for me, And so I 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:29.760 was conscious of that and I worked up, you know, 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:31.880 to that I made sure then when I wanted to 0:07:31.960 --> 0:07:34.160 quit all my work and study, I made sure that 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:36.280 I kept that. I made sure that I built in 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:38.800 these things. And so you may look at three weeks 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:41.280 being like wow, but it definitely was a lead up 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:43.360 to that. And I remember the first time I did 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:46.720 a three week block. It was last year actually, and 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:50.360 I not last year, the year before, sorry, and I 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:52.120 did not want to do it, like the thought of 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:55.960 three weeks just felt debilitating. And I remember actually my 0:07:55.960 --> 0:07:58.800 own dad waking me through that, and it was interesting 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:00.840 because it kind of called me out on the stories 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:02.960 I had attached to that of why that wouldn't be 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:04.880 okay and how I would not survive or the kids 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:07.520 would not be okay. And when I realized that these 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:10.080 are just stories and if anything, it's going to help 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:13.240 me towards my own growth, I pushed through it, despite 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:16.120 the anxiety, despite me wanting to cancel it, And honestly, 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:18.360 that was the most I would say life changing trip 0:08:18.400 --> 0:08:21.840 I've had for myself and it completely changed the course 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:24.120 of my life into in terms of where I was going, 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:26.920 and I didn't even realize it. It was years before 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:29.280 I actually stopped, you know, like I was actually on 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:31.480 survival mode for quite some time, and that trip was 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:34.080 really pivotable. And this was in twenty twenty four. It 0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:36.680 was so pivotal towards the direction I was going in 0:08:36.800 --> 0:08:39.080 because for the first time I actually just sat with 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:42.000 myself and I didn't think about what somebody else wanted 0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:43.880 from me, and I was like, I'm just going to 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:46.400 start to learn to listen to my cues, and that 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:48.599 only benefits your kids, to be honest, Like, if you 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:51.439 don't take the space away from your life to do that, honestly, 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:54.440 whether it's like half an hour or three weeks, if 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:58.200 you don't take the space to do that, people around you, 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:00.720 you know, they feel that bad as well when we 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:02.880 use others to fill us up. So I do feel like, 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:05.000 in whichever way you want to do it, it's such 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:08.000 a necessary part of growth to have little time alone, 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:09.200 whatever that looks like for you. 0:09:10.160 --> 0:09:12.720 Yeah. Yeah. And also we will point out to our 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:15.240 listeners who are probably thinking, oh my god, where were 0:09:15.240 --> 0:09:17.600 you kids for three weeks they were with their dad, right, 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:21.439 so it's not like it's not like they were parentless. 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:25.200 But yeah, and its interesting though as well. Sorry to 0:09:25.559 --> 0:09:27.840 cut you off there, but if a father did that, 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:30.240 no one kind of bot sized right when there's like 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:32.280 a work trip on or a father's away. But when 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:34.840 a mom does it, it just there's a different story 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:37.520 attached to it. And I very much like to point 0:09:37.559 --> 0:09:39.720 that out because we often put so much importance, say 0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:42.000 on a three week period, but what about what our 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:45.920 lifestyle looks like on a daily basis. You know, for me, 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:48.200 I build in so much quality time with my kids 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:50.920 when I do have them, so it yeah, it doesn't. 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:53.199 I would much prefer it that way. You know. Then 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:57.280 I'm feeling like my leave is the only time with them, for. 0:09:57.200 --> 0:10:02.800 Example, without getting too specific or talking about anything you 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:07.319 don't want to talk about. So you and the kid's 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:09.520 dad split a while ago? What was that like a 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:11.360 year or three years or given? 0:10:12.280 --> 0:10:14.720 Yeah, about three and a half years ago. 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:19.640 Okay, And I guess the reason that I want to 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:22.160 open that door a little bit is if it's all 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:25.120 right with you and feel free to not talk about 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:27.480 what you don't want to talk about. But what's interesting 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:30.120 is one you went through that just you as a mum, 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:33.080 as a wife, as a human, as someone who was 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:36.280 married and then broke up, which is an incredibly common 0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:39.880 part of the human experience. It's not like you invented it, right, 0:10:40.679 --> 0:10:44.920 But so you go through it as just not just 0:10:45.000 --> 0:10:47.839 but as a regular human being. But then you also 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:51.000 go through it as a psychologist who works with people 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:54.640 going through stuff like this and kids going through So 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:56.719 you're working with the parents, and you're working with the 0:10:56.800 --> 0:11:00.439 children of people who have separated or divorced or are 0:11:00.480 --> 0:11:02.880 in the middle of that process, which can be very 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:09.360 lumpy and bumpy. I would assume what did you, if anything, like, 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:13.680 what did you learn, both just as a mum and 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:18.199 as a person, but also as a psychologist dealing with 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:21.880 people going through that themselves, Like what were, if anything, 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:24.800 any of the light bulbs or revelations for you. 0:11:26.000 --> 0:11:28.400 That's such a good question. Yeah, because being a child therapist, right, 0:11:28.400 --> 0:11:31.280 I've obviously sat with kids going through this transition. I've 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:34.920 talked to parents around helping their child navigate this, and 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:37.640 then yeah, me going through it. And so it's interesting 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:39.880 because when we go through a life transition like this, 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:41.920 we don't go through it from the skills that we 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:45.000 have or the experiences just professionally. We go through it 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:48.680 from our own conditioning. So my parents got divorced when 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:50.480 I was school aged, and I had a lot of 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:53.120 stories around this of how I never wanted to get 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:55.880 divorced and give my child, you know, the life that 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:58.120 they had, and no matter what, you know, I was 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:00.520 going to keep family together. And so it was really 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:03.479 my stories, and I would say probably my own unprocessed 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:08.520 trauma around that that actually impacted how I responded and 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:11.880 or how I felt sorry in this process, rather than 0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:14.080 the skills and the tools that I had, Because remember, 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:18.040 when we're in a state of whether it's fear or 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:22.520 grief or anxiety or you know, processing our own heavy emotions, 0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:24.599 we're not drawing upon the skills that we've learned. We 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:26.760 are drawing upon our past experiences. So it was very 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:30.120 hard to get clarity around that. But I think probably 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:32.839 what the most important insight I got from that is 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:35.520 how I viewed the situation. What I was going through right, 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:38.360 being an adult and being part of this dynamic is 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:41.360 very different from what the child experience is. For them, 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:43.880 the whole world has come crashing down, and that's really 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:46.960 hard for parents to actually take a step back and 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:48.960 sit with because they're like, oh, no, I'm going to 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:50.960 buffer that for them, and I'm and no, that's not 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:52.160 how it's going to be and this is going to 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:54.120 be better and all the ways that we justified that, 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:58.360 but just initially, the whole world is crushing down and 0:12:58.480 --> 0:13:02.439 allowing time and space for that grief and for that process. 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:04.840 And you've got a lot of things that you can't 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:08.480 control in this situation, somebody else's narrative or other external 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:12.679 influences around that as well. But if anything, I think 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:15.880 it's really important rather than you know, as we can 0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:19.120 be caught up in a reactive kind of approach and response, 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:22.120 to really start connecting with our own values and really 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:25.760 connecting with our own growth around this as well, and 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:28.880 supporting the child through. Like you said in necessary parts, 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:33.280 sometimes if life endings and transitions. 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:37.360 Is what is the really or what is the most 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:41.760 common kind of challenge for the kids? Like when you 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:46.120 like a lot of kids respond this way or that way, 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:50.680 and so we're constantly trying to mitigate this or navigate 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:54.839 that or remedy that is there. And I know everyone responds. 0:13:55.000 --> 0:14:00.079 Grown ups and kids respond differently to similar circumstances. But 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:04.040 is there something is it more practical? Is it about fear, 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:09.160 is it about navigating the uncertain? What is it that's 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:11.680 a real common denominator with kids going through that? 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:14.560 Yeah, interesting you say that. I look at the research 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:19.000 around that, and it's not divorce that is harmful to children. 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:21.200 It's a conflict which can actually happen in a marriage 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:23.800 or divorce, right, and just often because of divorce is 0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:27.080 more conflict at times. So I think what really impacts 0:14:27.160 --> 0:14:29.720 kids is if you could imagine for a child, they're 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:32.520 half their mom, they're half their dad, and so they're 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:36.080 often quite privy to adult conversations post divorce, whether it's 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:39.960 from another parent or you know, other family members giving 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:43.000 their opinion, or just other things right from friends or 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:46.400 whatever else. And that's confusing for a child when they are, 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:50.040 you know, they've got their identity being both their both parents, 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:53.160 and then both their parents are no longer together, and 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:57.280 there's this kind of sense of these really kind of 0:14:57.320 --> 0:14:59.800 strong or heavy feelings, and it's hard for them to 0:14:59.840 --> 0:15:02.560 make sense of that too, and especially when they personalize 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:05.720 that right or make that a story about them, like 0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:09.440 you know, as you probably have seen right with a 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:13.200 lot of separated parents, and they've got different ideas about parenting, 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:15.560 They've got different ideas about what should happen in their house. 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:19.400 And then there's sometimes elements of you know, trying to 0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:22.680 keep what we determine as consistency for kids. But if anything, 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:25.960 it creates more conflicts, right because one parents may be 0:15:26.080 --> 0:15:27.560 trying to say that their way is a better way 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:29.960 or vice versa, and so kids are trying to figure 0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:32.640 out like who side do I go on? Mum or doubt? 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:34.520 And I think the biggest thing that we can do 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:36.960 for kids is you just ever a mum and a doubt, 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:39.800 Like they're not in competition, right, like I'm not in 0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:42.280 a condition with the other parent, vice versa. And the 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:45.480 more that I think parents can actually really advocate this 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:47.600 to kids and more than that drops and they're like, 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:49.040 I don't need to pick a side. I can love 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:50.360 both mom and doubt, you know. 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:53.720 Yeah, yeah, I feel like, I mean, I don't know 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:56.360 you're the expert in this, and I've never even been married, 0:15:56.400 --> 0:15:58.440 So take what I'm about to say with a grain 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:04.160 of salt as a a casual observer. But there are 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:11.400 definitely times when one or the other or both try 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:15.960 to turn the kids again to the other parent. Yeah, 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:18.480 that's the saddest shit of all time to me, because 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:22.560 to me, that's just the parent making it all about themselves. 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:25.960 Definitely, I think it's one of the most harmful, sorry, 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:26.800 things that they can do. 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:31.080 Yeah, yeah, why why is that? I mean, look, I 0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:34.520 mean and let's okay, let's just say and remember everyone, 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:36.480 this is just a conversation. This is not therapy, this 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:39.320 is not advice. Is to people having a chat. But like, 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:42.760 all right, let's say sometimes one of the parents is 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:47.920 let's just say, not a great human, right, or you know, 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:51.040 whichever one lets somebody's like a real problem. Well I 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:53.680 get it. But you know, if we're talking about a 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:56.520 lot of marriages where for whatever reason, it just falls apart, 0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:58.920 they fall out of love, it's not going great. And 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:03.240 you know, but then when you see and I've seen it, 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:08.000 and even with people that I've known, where one or 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:11.639 the other or both are trying to poison the mind 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:15.440 of the child against the other parent, am like, what 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:19.240 the fuck are you doing? Like what are you what 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:22.280 are you doing? Like what is your intention here? Like 0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:26.320 what do you think the upside of this is and 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:29.080 again I'm not trying to judge anyone, and people are 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:31.280 listening to this gun you wouldn't fucking know. I know, 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:35.000 I don't know. I'm asking the questions, but it just 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:40.560 to me that that like using kids almost as pawns 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:44.119 in a like a human chest gain to go some 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:46.200 kind of fucking leverage. 0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:48.800 It very much is. And you know, I think a 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:52.840 perfect example of this, and you know it's definitely a 0:17:52.840 --> 0:17:57.920 sensitive topic, right, but let's say there is a say 0:17:58.000 --> 0:18:00.520 this infidelity, Okay, so let's just say as a mum, 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:03.280 and then the dad, there's a you know, he cheated, 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:06.280 for example, a lot of the time, unless sure, he 0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:08.679 stays with women a lot of the time. And I 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:10.679 hear this from a lot, you know, being a therapist 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:13.280 for mums where they've come in and they've like, he's 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:16.000 a cheater. He's not a good dad because he's a cheater. Right, 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:17.760 He's broken up this family and the kids need to 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:20.000 know what he's like, and he's creating this new woman 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:23.680 around and you know it's impacting them and you can 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:27.000 see it's it's definitely their own unresolved issues, right because 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:29.439 if you think about it, for a lot of the 0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:32.000 reality actually, you know, sometimes for a lot of males, 0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:34.159 if they haven't taken the primary care given role, is 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:37.760 actually having a partner probably helps them. It actually probably 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:39.840 helps the child because the child's got another parent to 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:42.320 bounce off, or another parent's figure to bounce off. So 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:45.399 that's actually not the issue. And it's very normal for 0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:48.040 parents to have other partners and for children to transition 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:52.439 with that. So that's not the issue. But what happens is, 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:55.320 say the mum in that situation might really talk to 0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:57.320 the child about that, you know, he's picking this new 0:18:57.320 --> 0:18:59.320 woman over you. If he really loved you, guys, he 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:01.800 would prior to as you. And so what happens is 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:04.199 we create this unhealthy balance if the mom kind of 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:07.480 using the children as a pseudo partner and emotionally leaning 0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:10.120 on them and talking about how that's a healthier dynamic 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:12.080 than what the dad's doing, which is living his own 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:14.520 life and having a partner and then obviously seeing his kids. 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:18.200 And this actually is what she's thinking doing where she's 0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:21.080 pointing out the dad's flaws and it's hurting him, it's 0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:24.600 actually hurting the kids because that isn't a fact, right, Yes, 0:19:24.640 --> 0:19:26.320 he's got a new partner. That's a fact. And yes 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:28.160 he's spending time with a new partner, that's a fact. 0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:30.760 But it's not a fact that he's now spending time 0:19:30.760 --> 0:19:32.800 with a partner and you know he's choosing the partner 0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:34.960 of the child. That's not the case at all. And 0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:36.600 so if we want to support children in that, we 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:40.320 really want to help to I would say keep the 0:19:40.359 --> 0:19:43.080 parents to our relationship intact and protect it with all 0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:44.920 that we have. And so if you're the other parent 0:19:45.000 --> 0:19:47.440