Speaker 1: Bobby Capuccio, Welcome back to the You Project.
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Craig, good to see you.
Speaker 1: Are you ready Sunday, You're ready. I did just throw
Speaker 1: you in quickly there because you and I were having
Speaker 1: a casual chat. Can you have a casual chat about
Speaker 1: Donald Trump and politics in America, in the state of
Speaker 1: the world, if that's possible. That's what we were just doing.
Speaker 1: But we were getting a little deep and dark, so
Speaker 1: I went, fuck it, let's record something. Let's do a
Speaker 1: podcast about something lighter.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think part of the problem is that we're
Speaker 2: increasingly having the inability to have a casual chat about anything.
Speaker 1: Mmmmm, especially in this Well, that's what we try and
Speaker 1: do here.
Speaker 2: I mean, I didn't mean here in the U Project.
Speaker 2: I mean here.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, fascinating casual chats. And it's a very deep
Speaker 2: intellectual ones as well.
Speaker 1: I mean I think yeah, well, I think more broadly,
Speaker 1: like outside of the U Project, which is is there
Speaker 1: a world outside of the U Project? Apparently there is,
Speaker 1: but it's a myriad of echo chambers, political and social
Speaker 1: and religious and cultural and fitness and food, and everybody
Speaker 1: thinks that whatever they think is the right thing, and
Speaker 1: everybody thinks that anyone who doesn't think like them is
Speaker 1: the wrong thing, and it's probably not going Is that
Speaker 1: more than ever, do you think? Or is that just
Speaker 1: that we're more aware of it now these echo chambers
Speaker 1: and the confirmation bias and if you don't think like mey,
Speaker 1: you're bad, You're horrible. I hate you wear enemies? Is
Speaker 1: that more or is it the same but with more awareness?
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know, but my guess would be both.
Speaker 2: I think we've always had these tendencies. I mean we're
Speaker 2: tribal people, right, so yeah, anything any like, you know,
Speaker 2: you meet a different tribe, you don't know. They could
Speaker 2: have the best of intentions. I could be treating food
Speaker 2: for first tonight, or they could kill me, like on
Speaker 2: first contact. So like, suspicion and aggression sometimes is something
Speaker 2: that I think is built into our DNA as a
Speaker 2: survival mechanism. So I don't think human have changed very much.
Speaker 2: I mean it was it take one thousand generations for heredity,
Speaker 2: natural selection, and gene mutation to alter us in any
Speaker 2: meaningful way. So you figure the average life expectancy of
Speaker 2: each generation has been about twenty five years. Yeah, so
Speaker 2: we're probably the same people we were ten thousand years
Speaker 2: ago and a little bit different than we were fifty
Speaker 2: thousand years ago. But the environment we're in I think
Speaker 2: exacerbates some of those natural tendencies. I mean, we've never
Speaker 2: been fed monologues back and forth on a social media platform,
Speaker 2: you know, inundated with people who are exactly like us,
Speaker 2: you know, being forced into an ever increasing echo chamber
Speaker 2: that were plugged into twenty four seven. So who knows.
Speaker 1: And it's interesting because you've got to be I reckon
Speaker 1: if you're going to start talking about echo chambers and
Speaker 1: you know, confirmation bias in this group versus that group,
Speaker 1: and you know, the different kind of ideologies and philosophies
Speaker 1: and who's where and who's what and who's not, you've
Speaker 1: got to also realize that you're like I have to
Speaker 1: if I'm being authentic and real, I have to realize
Speaker 1: that I am part of that because I literally have
Speaker 1: a group of people that follow me and listen to
Speaker 1: me and read me, who for the most part probably
Speaker 1: think somewhat similarly. Ergo the allegiance and the alliance, and
Speaker 1: then in the middle of that, like for me, I
Speaker 1: think it's really important to go I wonder what I'm
Speaker 1: getting wrong, or I wonder what could be wrong, because
Speaker 1: when I reflect and I think, well, have I gotten
Speaker 1: things wrong in the past, Oh, only about a million?
Speaker 1: So what am I currently quite adamant about that could
Speaker 1: be completely fucking wrong, you know. And I think, unless
Speaker 1: you look through that lens of this is what I believe,
Speaker 1: and this is what I think. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: I've been wrong frequently, So perhaps some of this, all
Speaker 1: of this, or none of this I could be wrong about.
Speaker 2: Well I don't. I guess is that you, like every
Speaker 2: one of usrobably get a lot wrong, you probably get
Speaker 2: a lot right. I think a podcast is a really
Speaker 2: different environment, different dynamic, because you have a certain frame
Speaker 2: through which you look at the world and you have
Speaker 2: a strong opinion about it. And I'm starting to value
Speaker 2: strongly held opinion, not strongly held, but strong opinions that
Speaker 2: are lightly held, that are malleable. You kind of have
Speaker 2: a have to have a point of view as an
Speaker 2: anchor point that people can relate to form much to
Speaker 2: start a dialogue, you know, good luck starting a dialogue
Speaker 2: with just you know, just ambiguity. But on social media
Speaker 2: that's going to bleed through to the people that it attracts.
Speaker 2: Where on a podcast you're sharing dynamic ideas and you
Speaker 2: have a very wide range of guests with different opinions
Speaker 2: that engage with you, and by extension, you know, we're
Speaker 2: engaging with your audience right now. So I love podcasts
Speaker 2: because it's a medium to kind of vicariously flush out
Speaker 2: ideas between two or you know, sometimes more people. I
Speaker 2: think it's different than when you belong to a certain
Speaker 2: group on social media or and algorithms trying to say, okay,
Speaker 2: well what's Craig into. Well, we're just going to feed
Speaker 2: him people who think exactly like him, and eventually, you know,
Speaker 2: you would come to the conclusion that well, this is
Speaker 2: just the way the world is now, it's just the
Speaker 2: way you are and the people that you're communicating with,
Speaker 2: or it's not necessarily the way the world is. So
Speaker 2: I don't know I favor one medium over another.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that idea that you know, like, I
Speaker 1: don't know, Let's have ten thousand people listening to you
Speaker 1: and may talk, right, and probably every one of those
Speaker 1: ten thousand people will have a different experience to some
Speaker 1: or all of what we're saying. Somebody might think this
Speaker 1: is interesting. Some might think it's boring, some might think
Speaker 1: it's confusing, some might have already pressed stop, you know,
Speaker 1: and it's it's understanding that you know, there's my true
Speaker 1: and your truth, and then the objective truth. And then
Speaker 1: with some things, I don't think there is an absolute
Speaker 1: objective truth depending on what we're talking about, you know,
Speaker 1: And I think that people don't sometimes and this is
Speaker 1: me as well. You don't realize that this thing that
Speaker 1: you think is not the objective, practical, real world reality,
Speaker 1: but just rather your version of it that you think
Speaker 1: is the actual reality.
Speaker 2: I get everything you're saying. I think there's one layer
Speaker 2: that we're missing, the wei. So when you talk about truths,
Speaker 2: there are absolute truths that are truths, regardless of how
Speaker 2: you feel about them. Yes, you can be completely ignorant
Speaker 2: to them, they still exist. And then there's your personal truth,
Speaker 2: you know. So if you grew up at a very
Speaker 2: violent household, you might adapt the belief that people are dangerous,
Speaker 2: and you know what, you're right they are. But that's
Speaker 2: not the only truth. But then there's also the collative truths,
Speaker 2: Like we all agree on this, and I think that's
Speaker 2: where we have to be really careful. Some collective truths. Obviously,
Speaker 2: justice and fairness and respect for the individual. Those are
Speaker 2: very good. But I think when your thought processes and
Speaker 2: beliefs are tied in with a collective truth of an organization,
Speaker 2: a certain society, I think you run into trouble because
Speaker 2: those can be manipulated, and because you so strongly identify
Speaker 2: with belonging to that group and believing that thing, you
Speaker 2: could be easily manipulated. And I think you know, very
Speaker 2: often we probably are, to varying degrees, and.
Speaker 1: Of course for all of those groups, you need to
Speaker 1: comply and conform and believe in a line to be
Speaker 1: a member. Yeah, because membership, that's it. It's like, yeah, sure,
Speaker 1: I'm a bit tarian, but every now and then i'd
Speaker 1: love a bit of steak. Sorry you're out of the group.
Speaker 1: You sure. I'm a Christian. I don't believe that Jesus
Speaker 1: was the Messiah, but the rest of it, I'm on board.
Speaker 1: You know. It's like, no, dude, no, this is these
Speaker 1: are not optional, like belong to our group. You need
Speaker 1: to think this, believe this, and do that. Oh okay,
Speaker 1: so it's a cult. It's like I can't push back
Speaker 1: or I can't you know, and I understand why that happens,
Speaker 1: but it is, you know. And I've been in a
Speaker 1: few cults of my own and different shapes and sizes
Speaker 1: and forms.
Speaker 2: And you still have the robe. I mean, I see
Speaker 2: you're still cap it with a haircut, as did I.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, well we've talked about I think you and
Speaker 1: I have even spoken about starting a cult. How much
Speaker 1: it'd be fun for about a year. Then it'd be
Speaker 1: a fucking nightmare. But again, if.
Speaker 2: I was going to start, it's just two old guys
Speaker 2: rationalized and being bolt.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would all it a cult, though I wouldn't
Speaker 1: pretend it was something else. I think that's the that's
Speaker 1: the first win. You go when people go, oh, that's
Speaker 1: a cult, you go, yes it is, and then they're
Speaker 1: fucked like what do they do? Then you go, of
Speaker 1: course it's a cult. Of course it's a cult.
Speaker 2: With even that's not going to work because you're not
Speaker 2: lawing them in under false pretenses. So now they have
Speaker 2: the freedom of choice of whether or not to join
Speaker 2: the cult. What self respecting cult gives that level of
Speaker 2: freedom of choice? Other cults will hang shit on you. You'll
Speaker 2: lose all respect from all other cult leaders, don't do it.
Speaker 2: It's going to ruin your reputation.
Speaker 1: It's going to tarnish my reputation. What about I mean,
Speaker 1: do you think that it's what the what's the downside
Speaker 1: of this is not the right term, but being open minded? Like,
Speaker 1: where's the insection between being open minded and being vulnerable
Speaker 1: or gullible or naive?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: Because at the same time, we, you know, most of
Speaker 1: us have pretty set beliefs about certain things. We have
Speaker 1: non negotiables. Do we have to be open minded about anything?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think talking about politics, I think for me,
Speaker 2: the answers not the best answers and the only answers,
Speaker 2: but the most plausible ones are somewhere in the middle.
Speaker 2: So whenever you say this or this, I get very suspicious.
Speaker 2: It's somewhere within that middle range. And which side it's
Speaker 2: indexed more towards I think is contextual. But for me,
Speaker 2: I went from being in I'll speak from personal experience,
Speaker 2: because I can't speak for everybody because they're already taken,
Speaker 2: aren't they. I went from being in my twenties highly
Speaker 2: dogmatic about what I believed. I was unwavering, unyielding. I
Speaker 2: knew I was right. I didn't necessarily think that everybody
Speaker 2: else was wrong unless it came to work practices, than
Speaker 2: I was highly opinionated, and I think it caused me
Speaker 2: a lot of pain and frustration, growth edges that kept
Speaker 2: me stunted, and it definitely didn't enhance my relationships and
Speaker 2: my ability to connect with others outside of work. But
Speaker 2: then I went the opposite direction to where I started
Speaker 2: challenging my own beliefs and I became hopelessly agnostic about
Speaker 2: all things. So my answer to everything was it depends.
Speaker 2: I kind of think where I'm at now is an
Speaker 2: internal versus external frame. Internally, I think there's value knowing
Speaker 2: these are my principles. This is what I believe to
Speaker 2: be true. Not absolute truths, but my truths. These are
Speaker 2: the rules I live by, you know, So this is
Speaker 2: what I value. I think that gives you a level
Speaker 2: of consistency when everything else around you is beyond your
Speaker 2: control and increasingly unpredictable, which exacerbates the stress response or
Speaker 2: the adverse impact of the stress response. But I think
Speaker 2: when it comes to things externally facing, I try not
Speaker 2: to have very strong opinions about who people are or
Speaker 2: why they do what they do, unless unless there's something
Speaker 2: that so strongly contradicts one of my principles, not even
Speaker 2: necessarily my values. I can associate with people who have
Speaker 2: different values than man. I enjoy it because I feel
Speaker 2: the time I become enriched, I grow. But certain principles
Speaker 2: like justice or fairness. So if you feel like you know,
Speaker 2: people of a certain height don't deserve the rights and
Speaker 2: the dignity that I deserve, Yeah, that's that's kind of
Speaker 2: a problem for me. But with everything else, Like I said,
Speaker 2: I have very strong internalized opinions that are held quite loosely.
Speaker 1: I think also, like what might be absolutely true for
Speaker 1: you might not be for somebody else. Like it's true
Speaker 1: for me that eating two meals a day works, and
Speaker 1: I've got evidence and data and it's true for me.
Speaker 1: So for me, two meals a day are great, But
Speaker 1: I wouldn't recommend it for anyone else necessarily because they're
Speaker 1: not me. They don't have my body, they don't respond
Speaker 1: necessarily the same as they may, but they probably won't.
Speaker 1: And so there's this. I think you can realize that
Speaker 1: for you, certain beliefs or ideas or truths might be
Speaker 1: super valuable and appropriate, But knowing that that's just for me,
Speaker 1: it might not necessarily work for the next person. Like
Speaker 1: I've spoken a lot about the fact that I didn't
Speaker 1: want a job when I was young. I wanted to work,
Speaker 1: but I didn't want to be an employee, and I
Speaker 1: realized that that was I didn't think that that was
Speaker 1: globally the best idea, but I realized that for me,
Speaker 1: that was a good idea. And then and it turned
Speaker 1: out that I was right about that. But then to
Speaker 1: pursue that fully knowing that this is not a general thing,
Speaker 1: this is a Craig thing. And so when I would
Speaker 1: talk to people and I would coach them or mentor
Speaker 1: them or help them, I would not on any level
Speaker 1: try and sell them on what works for me, but
Speaker 1: rather to try to understand them. Of course a coach
Speaker 1: should do this, but to figure out where they're at
Speaker 1: and what they value, and what might be the ideal
Speaker 1: you know, path or process or protocol for them.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: But it's like these things can be true that or
Speaker 1: these things can be simultaneous in that for me this
Speaker 1: is true, but for you this is false, or this
Speaker 1: is untrue.
Speaker 2: I wonder why there's such a strong need, not even desire,
Speaker 2: for a consensus. Yeah, why is it unacceptable for two
Speaker 2: people to hold totally different frames of reference, different opinions? Right?
Speaker 2: Why do you need to agree with me down to
Speaker 2: like what we eat?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: Why is that?
Speaker 1: So?
Speaker 2: I think it could be a couple of things. I
Speaker 2: know for me, I was so insecure when I was
Speaker 2: in my twenties and I was rigid. I thought if
Speaker 2: I let up for even one second, I was going back.
Speaker 2: I was going to slip back into a very dangerous situation.
Speaker 2: And I was I was getting all these inputs that
Speaker 2: gave me hope, like if you think like this, if
Speaker 2: you behave like this, if you follow this life philosophy
Speaker 2: and formula, it will work out for you as long
Speaker 2: as you put in the work. It's inevitable. And there
Speaker 2: are two types of people in the world, and you
Speaker 2: know you could be of the good kind, and then
Speaker 2: you know there's the bad kind, and they're bad because
Speaker 2: they choose to be bad. And it's like, oh, okay, great,
Speaker 2: so I'm guaranteed success as long as I grind. But
Speaker 2: I still had all this insecurity and fear that I
Speaker 2: was going to be found out, and I still had
Speaker 2: an unhealthy attachment to what people thought of me, even
Speaker 2: though I pretended that I didn't. So if I encountered
Speaker 2: somebody with a completely different philosophy that was threatening to me,
Speaker 2: oh my god, what if they're right and I'm wrong,
Speaker 2: then I have no guarantee that I'm not safe. I
Speaker 2: am in crisis, I am in threat. I haven't really
Speaker 2: moved beyond the circumstances that I so desperately tried to
Speaker 2: escape from. I think that's one aspect. Then there's the
Speaker 2: aspect of, you know, maybe people are just secretly it's
Speaker 2: kind of like a shadow characteristic. It's unacceptable for me
Speaker 2: to come out and say I enjoy hurting people because
Speaker 2: I am resentful and bitter that my life did not
Speaker 2: work out the way I thought it should have worked
Speaker 2: out for me. So there's this enemy, and all of
Speaker 2: the problems in the world are because of people like this.
Speaker 2: So me, I'm not this horrible human being that hates
Speaker 2: people who disagrees with me or will maliciously try to
Speaker 2: harm individuals who have done nothing wrong to me or
Speaker 2: objectively nothing wrong at all. That's not me, Like I'm
Speaker 2: a good person. What I'm doing is defending righteousness and
Speaker 2: truth because that's the enemy. But not what I'm really
Speaker 2: not doing is taking responsibility for the fact that, hey,
Speaker 2: your life might suck because things happened that was outside
Speaker 2: of your control. But there's not this enemy to blame.
Speaker 2: It's kind of like when you, like when you were
Speaker 2: in school, like my dad could beat up your dad,
Speaker 2: Like you believe that there's one type of person that's
Speaker 2: responsible for all the evils in the world, and you
Speaker 2: and people like you are responsible as being the beacons
Speaker 2: of truth and goodness. That is a juvenile way of
Speaker 2: looking at the world. You've got to look at a
Speaker 2: little bit deeper and take a little bit more responsibility. Again,
Speaker 2: not saying that anything that is causing that resentment is
Speaker 2: your fault, but you do have the ability to respond responsibility.
Speaker 2: I think that's a far more constructive way than creating
Speaker 2: an imaginary enemy to aim all of your ankstat which
Speaker 2: I think but some people might be the case.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, It's interesting how much we, or how many
Speaker 1: of us how often think that whatever's not working in
Speaker 1: my life, it's somehow it's got nothing to do with me.
Speaker 1: It's like, well, there's a fair chance it's got something,
Speaker 1: you know, And like you said, there are a lot
Speaker 1: of extraneous variables. Bad shit happens to good people. We
Speaker 1: know that. We're not saying that it doesn't. We're not
Speaker 1: saying that what happened to you isn't real or isn't valid,
Speaker 1: or isn't horrible. But then there's still okay, So we
Speaker 1: get that, we acknowledge that. But here we are now,
Speaker 1: and that's you know, being able to work through the shit,
Speaker 1: like just being able to roll up your sleeves and go, look,
Speaker 1: this is unfair, this is this is tough, this is horrible,
Speaker 1: and yep, I agree with you. And today's a new day.
Speaker 1: And even though all that's happened, what are you going
Speaker 1: to do today? What decisions you're going to make, What
Speaker 1: action are you going to take? And how are you
Speaker 1: going to do the very best you can to optimize
Speaker 1: you and what you have to work with? And I
Speaker 1: think also there's another bit to that you were talking
Speaker 1: about where I just wrote down here, the need to
Speaker 1: know you know, it's like when we, like you said,
Speaker 1: the need to for consensus, like why do we have
Speaker 1: to agree? Also, why do we have to why do
Speaker 1: we have to have an opinion? Or why do we
Speaker 1: have to like, oh, what do you think of this
Speaker 1: or that I don't, I don't know, or what do
Speaker 1: you you know the amount of times where people have
Speaker 1: asked me like a men question because you know, they
Speaker 1: think and I'm like, I don't know. They're like, but what,
Speaker 1: I go, well, one, I'm an excised scientist. And even then,
Speaker 1: you know, a five out of ten. But you know,
Speaker 1: you're literally asking me a question you should ask a neurosagin,
Speaker 1: you know, just going ah, look, I don't know. I
Speaker 1: could make some shit up, you know, like the amount
Speaker 1: of times people have said, can you put your hand
Speaker 1: on my shoulder or something similar? And I do that
Speaker 1: then they move their arm, Oh what's that clunking? I go, Fuck,
Speaker 1: that feels and sounds terrible. I've got no idea, but
Speaker 1: good luck with that.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: It's like me diagnosing some problem, some clinical problem, without
Speaker 1: the without the information, without the really without the experience
Speaker 1: of the training. It's like, I don't know, dude, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know, and I don't know what
Speaker 1: happens when we die, and I don't know whether this
Speaker 1: is right or wrong, and I don't I just don't know.
Speaker 1: And also I don't know if I'm right about this,
Speaker 1: this is what I think, but also so I don't
Speaker 1: actually know. That's why it's called a belief or faith
Speaker 1: or a thought. Like this compulsion that we seem to
Speaker 1: have to want to know things and to have certainty
Speaker 1: in a world that is largely uncertain. It's almost like
Speaker 1: an emotional handicap.
Speaker 2: I think our need to know things kind of drives
Speaker 2: our growth obviously. I mean, if we didn't need to know,
Speaker 2: nobody would have built ships and sailed across the ocean.
Speaker 2: But it's this that there's there's a dark side to
Speaker 2: it as well. Maybe it's because maybe it's because there's
Speaker 2: so many things we don't know that it's just grasping
Speaker 2: at a level of certainty so we could feel a
Speaker 2: little bit safer. Yeah, But I mean, for me, people
Speaker 2: who are willing to live in the question not necessarily
Speaker 2: have the answer. I respect those people, Like there's nothing
Speaker 2: more respectable than an educator person authentically saying I don't know, yeah,
Speaker 2: and it's like, oh wow, that's curious, and maybe it's like, hey,
Speaker 2: let's go find out, or maybe it's just I don't know,
Speaker 2: I'm not really interested. But I there's this thing about
Speaker 2: how we interact with ourselves that is probably even more
Speaker 2: important than how we interact with other people. And this
Speaker 2: is something I've really struggled with still do so I
Speaker 2: find it fascinating, you know, I've kind of looked at
Speaker 2: things like self compassion when people talk about things like
Speaker 2: that as a bit self indulgent and almost the antithesis
Speaker 2: of mental tenacity or grit and God, the more I'm
Speaker 2: diving into this, I kind of knew, like, there's there's
Speaker 2: some empirical evidence out there that would suggest I'm dead wrong.
Speaker 2: But I'm discovering increasingly that I couldn't be more incorrect.
Speaker 2: Have you ever read any Kristin Neff or Susan David?
Speaker 2: I have not. I think you'd love Susan David should
Speaker 2: be a great guest for the show. Actually, And in
Speaker 2: like Kristin Neff's research, people who are compassionate with themselves.
Speaker 1: What is she can just ask what is her field
Speaker 1: and psychology?
Speaker 2: So basically, people who approach themselves with acceptance and compassion.
Speaker 2: Like you would if you were observing a flawed person
Speaker 2: make mistakes, you wouldn't condemn them. You wouldn't say, well,
Speaker 2: what you do is reflective of who you are. No,
Speaker 2: it's just what I did. It's not the trutality of
Speaker 2: who I am, unless, of course, you're a serial killer,
Speaker 2: and then yeah, that's really bad all around. No rationalizing that.
Speaker 2: But people who act from a space of grace with
Speaker 2: themselves and acceptance of their limitations, that flaws, where their
Speaker 2: knowledge ends things that we're talking about, tend to take
Speaker 2: a lot more personal responsibility and they more readily transform
Speaker 2: and grow throughout their lives. I think, if I'm not
Speaker 2: stuffing this all up. She did an experiment where there
Speaker 2: were people who operated with a high level of self
Speaker 2: compassion and those that you know pretty much had globalized
Speaker 2: internal beliefs about themselves that were not kind. You know
Speaker 2: people like that. We've probably been people like that where
Speaker 2: you do something, God, how can you be so stupid?
Speaker 2: And in a job interview when it came up discuss
Speaker 2: some of your weaknesses and shortcomings. The people who were
Speaker 2: highly self compassionate and accepting were able to articulate and
Speaker 2: take responsibility for what their weaknesses were and either accepted
Speaker 2: it and they had ways of working around it, or
Speaker 2: they were working on transform and becoming better, where other
Speaker 2: people who lacked self compassion became highly disturbed and flustered,
Speaker 2: which is really not a good look in an interview.
Speaker 2: So we kind of look at these things like acceptance
Speaker 2: of self compassion as being soft qualities. They're nothing, They're
Speaker 2: nothing of the salt. I think it's reflective of strength.
Speaker 2: What I wonder is, does compassion just begat compassion? Are
Speaker 2: we discompassionate with other people? And do we have no
Speaker 2: tolerance for people who see the world through a different
Speaker 2: lens than us because we hold that same space of
Speaker 2: complete intolerance for ourselves in our inner world. I wonder
Speaker 2: if there's an inverse kind of causality with that. My
Speaker 2: guess would be, yeah, probably.
Speaker 1: What I love that. I love that. What where does
Speaker 1: self compassion? Can it? Spit like? It seems like a
Speaker 1: good idea, But so are we talking about like you
Speaker 1: were talking there about in a job interview. They might
Speaker 1: be able to identify certain weaknesses or limitations, but then
Speaker 1: with the capacity to without beating yourself up, then commit
Speaker 1: to working on those things, to improving, to learning, to growing,
Speaker 1: to grow, to evolve. So it doesn't it's not just
Speaker 1: about self compassion, but also being able to then leverage
Speaker 1: off that and do something positive.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, definitely, But I think What is becoming more
Speaker 2: obvious to me is if you don't have that self compassion,
Speaker 2: you're not going to get to that point. You're just
Speaker 2: going to keep ruminating over I am and whatever comes
Speaker 2: after That is probably not constructive and it's probably more accurate.
Speaker 2: But once you start to integrate that thought pattern and
Speaker 2: the emotional consequence, first of all, you're not very resourceful.
Speaker 2: That's not really good for utilizing your prefrontal lobes that
Speaker 2: are optimal capacity. And when you have that internalization of
Speaker 2: that identity, you're bound to or you're far more likely
Speaker 2: I should stay to kind of repeat those behaviors that
Speaker 2: you strongly identify with, you know, like I'm so I'm
Speaker 2: so fucking lazy. Well what a lazy people do? Not much?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, that's not you.
Speaker 2: You know, you might have had a lazy Sunday, I
Speaker 2: don't know, maybe a lazy Friday in Sacha as well,
Speaker 2: But is that something you engaged in or is that
Speaker 2: who you are at your core? That's not useful?
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, I guess even you know, I've been
Speaker 1: lazy this week or whatever. But what I'm going to
Speaker 1: do starting now is this or you know, where you
Speaker 1: can acknowledge something and build some kind of momentum off
Speaker 1: the back of that awareness without the self loathing thrown in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, or maybe a little bit of compassion decreases your
Speaker 2: level of reactiveness to what happened. You might ask yourself
Speaker 2: some better questions. Like if I had a friend of
Speaker 2: mine who said, you know, I took three days where
Speaker 2: I did absolutely nothing, It's like, oh, wow, you know,
Speaker 2: it sounds like you were really exhausted. How was your week?
Speaker 2: You know, I would ask a couple of questions. Person's
Speaker 2: probably maybe those three days were the most productive thing
Speaker 2: they could have possibly done. I mean, if Dmitri Mendely
Speaker 2: didn't like quit and just like take a nap, we
Speaker 2: wouldn't have the periodic table, would we. Because there's a
Speaker 2: point where you're grinding and grinding your prefrontal lobes into
Speaker 2: absolute submission and you have to step back and just
Speaker 2: let your default mode network operate in your favor. So
Speaker 2: you know, it's just or you know what, maybe you
Speaker 2: really were lazy. What does that mean? It means you
Speaker 2: were lazy and like you said, all right, maybe it
Speaker 2: it's time to make a change. What's my first step
Speaker 2: in doing that? What's going to be different today. What's
Speaker 2: my plan? What's the one thing where do I start?
Speaker 2: That's going to be a far more constructive conversation if
Speaker 2: you're not engaging in the emotional intensity that comes along
Speaker 2: with self loathing. And I'm not saying if you're doing
Speaker 2: something like really wrong, you don't deserve to feel guilty.
Speaker 2: I think. I think guilt and pain and a little
Speaker 2: bit of suffering is good when you do something that
Speaker 2: violates your values or you know, hurts somebody else, you know,
Speaker 2: in even a worst case scenario. But long term internalization
Speaker 2: of shame is probably not a good transformative strategy. It's
Speaker 2: probably one of the worst things you can engauge in.
Speaker 1: It is true that you know, when we're in the
Speaker 1: middle of things, sometimes it's hard to have perspective because
Speaker 1: you're in the middle of it. But when you step back,
Speaker 1: have three days off for example, or three hours off
Speaker 1: ul you know you're in a different place, perhaps geographically,
Speaker 1: you can see things that you couldn't before because you're
Speaker 1: in either metaphorically or literally in a different place. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I always find that you travel a lot. I travel
Speaker 1: a fair bit, and I find that I see things
Speaker 1: differently just when i'm in another state or another country.
Speaker 1: Like the way that I think about things is different,
Speaker 1: just because I'm in a different environment and I'm in
Speaker 1: a different room. I'm looking at a different I'm looking
Speaker 1: at an ocean, I'm eating in different places, I'm talking
Speaker 1: a different It's like, oh Wow. The way that I
Speaker 1: get better in that spot is to get away from
Speaker 1: that spot, because I can have a level of perspective
Speaker 1: and understanding an insight when I'm away from the thing
Speaker 1: than when I'm in the middle of the thing. I
Speaker 1: can't see it. It's like I can't see my house
Speaker 1: when I'm in my house. I'm going to get out
Speaker 1: of the fucking house, walk to the other side of
Speaker 1: the street and go, oh, my gutter is falling down.
Speaker 1: I didn't know because I've been in the kitchen for
Speaker 1: three years. Ah, the fucking three of the tiles have
Speaker 1: come off. Ah. I needed to get out of my
Speaker 1: house to see what was really happening.
Speaker 2: That is so smart, Like sometimes just changing your environment
Speaker 2: is the exact thing you need to formulate a different perspective.
Speaker 2: I love that I wanted to see my house. If
Speaker 2: I'm in my house.
Speaker 1: I can't see it. I've got to get out of
Speaker 1: the fucking joint and walk over the road or get back.
Speaker 1: And hey, I wanted to ask you before. You said
Speaker 1: when you were younger, and you and I were quite
Speaker 1: you and I, there's a lot more parallels than a
Speaker 1: lot more convergence than divergence, they say in science, Bobby,
Speaker 1: as you know, but I reckon you and I were
Speaker 1: probably quite dogmatic when we were younger. I was, and
Speaker 1: you said you were. Tell me as much or as
Speaker 1: little as you want me and the listeners. What are
Speaker 1: some things that either you've just revisit it where you're like,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure about that anymore, or you've done in
Speaker 1: one id, or you've let something go and let something
Speaker 1: else in, like if you could. Because I think this
Speaker 1: understanding and being prepared to learn new things and unlearn
Speaker 1: old things is hugely important.
Speaker 2: I'll talk about nine to eleven because there's been certain
Speaker 2: like everybody has milestones or these significant events that changed
Speaker 2: the course of their life. One of them for me
Speaker 2: was nine to eleven because I lived down by the
Speaker 2: World Trade Center, so I was right underneath those towers,
Speaker 2: and I think up until nine to eleven, like I
Speaker 2: have friends of mine who we're really tight and we
Speaker 2: get on really well. But when they were traveling with
Speaker 2: me prior to nine to eleven, they hated it because
Speaker 2: I was so difficult to travel with. I would get
Speaker 2: into the office every morning at six am. I would
Speaker 2: not leave the office until probably eight pm. And when
Speaker 2: we were on a road trip, I should travel with
Speaker 2: my friend Rob, who is one of he's one of
Speaker 2: the greatest presenters teachers I've ever worked with. And you
Speaker 2: know those like in flight magazines. Yeah, I have all
Speaker 2: like the cars and the watches, and he'd flip through
Speaker 2: one and he would showing me something like, oh, check
Speaker 2: this out, sitting next to me and with complext God,
Speaker 2: this is this is ridiculous, with complete disdain. I would
Speaker 2: look over at him, my textbook in hand, and I
Speaker 2: would say, travel time is working time. You should be preparing. Wow, thanks,
Speaker 2: this is this is gonna be a fun trip. And
Speaker 2: I kind of had that personality type to the degree
Speaker 2: that my girlfriend at the time was in my apartment
Speaker 2: joing nine to eleven and she has like a lot
Speaker 2: of stuff coming down on top of her literally, and
Speaker 2: she has no idea what's going on. Because I had
Speaker 2: no TV in my house, I had no radio because
Speaker 2: to me, I used to call it the the electronic
Speaker 2: income Reducer. The TV.
Speaker 1: Wrote that down that radio.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that that is so charming. You could you
Speaker 2: could tell like how hot I was too to her.
Speaker 2: She must have she.
Speaker 1: Must can I just say it to wonder You had
Speaker 1: a girlfriend, dude.
Speaker 2: I didn't have many, and the ones I had it
Speaker 2: was I mean, like, I'm still friends with these people,
Speaker 2: and I'm just like, how did you do this?
Speaker 1: And then Radio, I've traveled with you quite a bit.
Speaker 1: I think you you improved since those days.
Speaker 2: Oh it was a complete turner and you're talking about
Speaker 2: a one eighty and radio was chewing gum for the brain.
Speaker 2: It's like I had all these beliefs, like all I
Speaker 2: had around me was books, Like this was like before
Speaker 2: social media, books, CDs. I even had those cassette tapes,
Speaker 2: which were kind of outdated at this point, but they
Speaker 2: still had value to me. And I couldn't even communicate
Speaker 2: with her like I couldn't. It was so hard for
Speaker 2: me to call my girlfriend. I was in midtown and
Speaker 2: say hey, get out of my house and start walking
Speaker 2: north as fast as you possibly can. And I had
Speaker 2: to come down and get her and then living in
Speaker 2: Lower Manhattan, I started getting progressively sicker and sicker. And
Speaker 2: I think how I described it once, because you know
Speaker 2: it's hard to explain, is that to produce a thought.
Speaker 2: It felt like somebody was cutting through my brain with
Speaker 2: a jagged, rusted piece of metal. And that's how I functioned.
Speaker 2: So I couldn't work fifteen eighteen hours a day. I
Speaker 2: could only I could only work like three hours before
Speaker 2: I was completely wiped.
Speaker 1: So for me, hamd Ham, I need I need the
Speaker 1: connection between what are you saying after nine to eleven?
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I was getting so sick living in that
Speaker 2: toxic dust cloud, right.
Speaker 1: And so this living in that post nine to eleven
Speaker 1: toxic dust cloud was fucking up your brain function yep. Right.
Speaker 2: It was such an ego deconstructing experience. And then after
Speaker 2: that I was living down there for a while and
Speaker 2: in I think, what was it leak June or anyway,
Speaker 2: it's probably late June.
Speaker 1: I love your terms. I'm sorry to interrupt, but just
Speaker 1: just riff on ego deconstructing experience. I'm writing it down.
Speaker 1: I love that. So what do you mean by that?
Speaker 1: Just because is that because you got your sense of
Speaker 1: self and self worth through being, you know, having this
Speaker 1: immense brain where you're constantly learning, and then all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, you or.
Speaker 2: You you are, how smart you are, you are, how
Speaker 2: productive you are, you are your outcomes, you are your
Speaker 2: work ethic period. Outside of my role professionally, I had
Speaker 2: no definition for who I was, nor did that was
Speaker 2: I interested in developing one. So it was it was hot.
Speaker 2: It was hard for me to be me. I didn't
Speaker 2: realize it at the time. I thought I was living
Speaker 2: my best life, but other people around me had quite
Speaker 2: a different experience, which probably still persists today. But in
Speaker 2: everything that I thought I was and everything that I
Speaker 2: thought made me valuable, being in question and being threatened,
Speaker 2: I kind of went into a panic. And then I
Speaker 2: moved to the UK June two thousand and two, and
Speaker 2: I kind of started up again with my rigid behaviors
Speaker 2: and my lectures about work ethic. And this person who
Speaker 2: I was working with, the client, Helen, who was kind
Speaker 2: of a mentor to me, we have switched on, Lady brilliant.
Speaker 2: She's like, you know, you're kind of getting in the
Speaker 2: way here and the way you engage in work doesn't
Speaker 2: work for you, and it doesn't work for anyone else.
Speaker 2: At one point we were on the phone and we
Speaker 2: were getting it kind of into an argument a little bit,
Speaker 2: which I was on the losing end of, and she said, Okay,
Speaker 2: this company you're consulting for, we've been a successful business
Speaker 2: longer than you've been a nation. Do you think we
Speaker 2: were clueless until you basically rocked up, Like we didn't
Speaker 2: have any of the thoughts that you're having right now.
Speaker 2: And she's like, if you would have a little bit
Speaker 2: more fun in your work and connect on more of
Speaker 2: a deeper emotional level, you would be more effective without
Speaker 2: being this way. But you know what else would happen
Speaker 2: other people around you would be a little bit more
Speaker 2: effective as well. And I was like, okay, you know,
Speaker 2: I was so physically worn out that you know, like
Speaker 2: when you're sometimes when you're really exhausted, your plane's delayed
Speaker 2: and you don't sleep as much, which is catastrophic for
Speaker 2: cognitive performers, but you get up the next morning to
Speaker 2: do a presentation and you're so much better because you
Speaker 2: just can't be asked about self editing and you're just
Speaker 2: like putting it out there. I was like that for
Speaker 2: months at a time, so I just started experimenting with
Speaker 2: a new way of being, and I also kind of
Speaker 2: had the thought, wow, you know what, I've kind of
Speaker 2: really poisoned my body living down there. I wonder how
Speaker 2: long into adulthood I'm going to live? What? You know,
Speaker 2: I didn't say to myself, Well, if I was going
Speaker 2: to die tomorrow, what would I do today? How would
Speaker 2: I live my life? That's stupid. I don't know if
Speaker 2: I would shower or brush my teeth. Kind of not
Speaker 2: a great strategy for life. But what if I was
Speaker 2: going to die six months from now? What if six
Speaker 2: months from now I've got all these toxins in my
Speaker 2: body and it gets really bad. I'm going to approach
Speaker 2: my work and only do what it is that I
Speaker 2: absolutely love to do, and serve people that I love
Speaker 2: working with and for, and I construct my front it.
Speaker 1: I love that. I love that lesson and I love
Speaker 1: that kind of Thank God for Helen as well. Thanks Helen.
Speaker 1: Was that her name? The English lady Helen?
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna I'm not going to say her surname,
Speaker 2: just you know, to respect her.
Speaker 1: We'll just go with Helen. Yeah, how long this is,
Speaker 1: you know, just a curiosity for me, so you're in
Speaker 1: the post nine to eleven mayhem and dust and toxicity,
Speaker 1: and your brain felt your brain didn't work and you
Speaker 1: felt like a rusty blade going through it, et cetera.
Speaker 1: How long before you felt or it worked like, what
Speaker 1: was the How long did that last before you felt
Speaker 1: like you were somewhat back to normal?
Speaker 2: Years? Really years? That was a struggle. And when I
Speaker 2: say I made this decision, I fluctuated in and out
Speaker 2: of it. So every day was a battle because those
Speaker 2: old patterns would start to reemerge. My neuroticism became intense
Speaker 2: because I felt how ineffective I was. I felt how
Speaker 2: I wasn't performing, My brain wasn't doing what I needed
Speaker 2: to do it to do to the same level it
Speaker 2: was before that. But as I as I started looking
Speaker 2: at people who had kind of the same belief systems
Speaker 2: as I did, something really interesting happened. And Paul Taylor
Speaker 2: was part of this. This was all around God. This
Speaker 2: was going back into two thousand and eight where I
Speaker 2: was on a circuit and I was looking at all
Speaker 2: these big self help speakers. They were they were rigid,
Speaker 2: they were judgmental, and they didn't seem very happy on
Speaker 2: the surface. They seemed great, but they weren't the same
Speaker 2: person off stage that they were on stage. And then,
Speaker 2: you know, mutual friend of all is Richard Boyd rings
Speaker 2: me and at this point I'm working in education with
Speaker 2: a company and he goes, oh, that I really wanted
Speaker 2: to get away from because I didn't. I didn't think
Speaker 2: that it was a great environment for me for a
Speaker 2: lot of reasons. And Boydy calls me and says, hey,
Speaker 2: I want you to come to Australia. We got tons
Speaker 2: of speaking tours. It's gonna be like a whole month
Speaker 2: full on, you know. Then we'll go Meeting of the Minds,
Speaker 2: then we'll go up to Colorado, come back to you know,
Speaker 2: San Diego. So this is gonna be This is gonna
Speaker 2: be at like six week endeavor. Oh and by the way,
Speaker 2: I'm not really sure if we're gonna be able to
Speaker 2: pay you. It all depends how the project goes. So
Speaker 2: it's like, you want me to get on a plane,
Speaker 2: travel halfway around the world to work NonStop constantly, and
Speaker 2: you're not even sure if you'll be able to pay
Speaker 2: me for it. I was like, Okay, book me a ticket.
Speaker 1: I'm in.
Speaker 2: So for me, this was this sounded like a great deal.
Speaker 2: I got on that plane and I started hanging out
Speaker 2: with like you know, and these were my friends before,
Speaker 2: but I spent some serious time observing Ode and Boyd
Speaker 2: and Taylor and you know, Michaele. We all worked very,
Speaker 2: very hard, but there was this deep commitment to the
Speaker 2: purpose and to one another, and there was this deep
Speaker 2: enjoyment that happened. It's almost like getting into a state
Speaker 2: of flow, kind of like when you're on stage or
Speaker 2: when you're you're focused on writing something with no distractions
Speaker 2: and you know why you're doing it. But it was
Speaker 2: like that conversationally. So I thought, if I keep thinking
Speaker 2: like these other people that I just left behind and
Speaker 2: doing what they do, I'm going to become just like them.
Speaker 2: But if I start thinking like these people here and
Speaker 2: I start engaging the behaviors they engage in and put
Speaker 2: myself in the environment they put themselves in, I'm going
Speaker 2: to be a lot more like them. And I looked
Speaker 2: at like, let's say o D for an example, who
Speaker 2: will change the energy dynamic of a room just by
Speaker 2: walking in it? And everybody feels uplifted, Everybody feels like
Speaker 2: they're engaged, they're having fun.
Speaker 1: And it's safe.
Speaker 2: And out of all of those people who feels that
Speaker 2: the most od I was like, do I want to
Speaker 2: be like O D like years from now? Yeah, I
Speaker 2: kind of do. So I just completely change direction. And
Speaker 2: that's you know, that's what led to the formation a
Speaker 2: PTA Global back then and that whole trajectory. But I
Speaker 2: did live my life where I'm only going to do
Speaker 2: what I would do if I only had six months
Speaker 2: to live, and there are some benefits to that, and
Speaker 2: then you know, there have been obviously some major drawbacks,
Speaker 2: but that was my decision and that was my path.
Speaker 1: How do you go now disconnecting from work? Because I
Speaker 1: feel like I'm probably you and I probably quite similar.
Speaker 1: Some people would look at how much I work and
Speaker 1: how much I do, and perhaps quite rightly, like by
Speaker 1: their standards anyway, they'd go, you're a workaholic, or you
Speaker 1: work too much, or you fuck around too little or whatever.
Speaker 1: But in my defense, your honor, none of what I
Speaker 1: do really feels like right now, you and I are working,
Speaker 1: you know, well, you're kind of for you, but you know,
Speaker 1: this is a podcast, we're sponsored, it's part of my job,
Speaker 1: but there's nothing about this that to me is a
Speaker 1: work experience. It doesn't feel like work. It feels like
Speaker 1: I'm in the middle of a conversation I'm interested in
Speaker 1: with a guy that I've known a long time and love. Right,
Speaker 1: that's it. That's for me. You know, I don't feel
Speaker 1: like I've had a job for the last thirty five years.
Speaker 1: But what about you? What's your relationship with work? Is
Speaker 1: it healthier than it's ever been or is it problematic? Oh?
Speaker 2: I still want to talk about this. Wow, this is
Speaker 2: something I want to talk about because I'm involved in
Speaker 2: an advanced long term coaching project or coaching curriculum going
Speaker 2: through and we were just examining the work of mehist
Speaker 2: Mahai with flow. I want to get to that because
Speaker 2: I think that is when you talk about, like what
Speaker 2: is life about? I think flow is definitely related to
Speaker 2: it in a highly important way. But you know, for me,
Speaker 2: I can completely well, there's something that I talk about
Speaker 2: in the sectors that I work in. And I learned
Speaker 2: this from my wife, and I call it quit every day.
Speaker 2: So as a filmmaker, when she had her film company,
Speaker 2: she would work eighteen hours a day. And she's formerly
Speaker 2: a trained engineer, an IT engineer, so she would do,
Speaker 2: like editing, she would do sound directing, like all these
Speaker 2: different roles that are really unique for one person to do.
Speaker 2: I was like, I wonder how she can do it.
Speaker 2: The writing, and it was exhausting, Like she would just
Speaker 2: sit at her computer pouring sweat and she'd be there
Speaker 2: for another six hours. I'm like, that is extreme physical
Speaker 2: and mental endurance. And at the end of the day though,
Speaker 2: she would do something that a lot of people don't do.
Speaker 2: It was almost like she was like, you know what,
Speaker 2: I quit, I quit the project, I quit my company.
Speaker 2: I'm done. And she would pour self a glass of wine.
Speaker 2: Now I'm not recommending wine as a coping strategy, but
Speaker 2: that worked for her, and if it works for you, great,
Speaker 2: But she would pour self a glass of wine, turn
Speaker 2: on Netflix, and in her mind she didn't have a
Speaker 2: company anymore, she didn't work anymore. She quit. The next morning,
Speaker 2: she would wake up and start all over again, and
Speaker 2: at the end of that day she would quit. So
Speaker 2: it's like this quit every day thing, I believe is
Speaker 2: very helpful because a lot of times what people do,
Speaker 2: especially me, I'm a ruminator, is I'll take a day
Speaker 2: off from work because I know it's important and there's
Speaker 2: other things I wanted to do. But then I'll think
Speaker 2: about work. I'll think about this conversation. You're not really
Speaker 2: off work, You're not really taking a mental break that's
Speaker 2: going to allow you to re engage in a more
Speaker 2: effective way. What are you doing? So there's this quit
Speaker 2: everyday thing that I've been getting better and better at.
Speaker 2: But I can kind of unplug from work because I
Speaker 2: do love conversations. I do love people. The caveat is
Speaker 2: I have a very hard time not working if I
Speaker 2: haven't been working, if you know what I mean. Yeah,
Speaker 2: going to dinner after a long day of work, where
Speaker 2: I feel like, Wow, we've accomplished something far more important
Speaker 2: than I've accomplished something. That time out is so deeply enjoyable,
Speaker 2: where when I go on holiday, I get about two
Speaker 2: days before I start losing my mind because there's not
Speaker 2: an achievement, there's not a striving for something. You're just
Speaker 2: hanging out and it's like, Okay, today, we're doing this
Speaker 2: bus tour and then we're going to this pub and
Speaker 2: it's like, ah, okay, great Tomorrow. I'll wake up at
Speaker 2: five o'clock in the morning and gouge both my eyes
Speaker 2: out because I can't take any more of this shit.
Speaker 1: I write and I didn't write. I did a podcast
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago called an Unambitious Life. I
Speaker 1: think you should listen to it. Just that, just yeah,
Speaker 1: it is like sometimes just to go, I mean, how
Speaker 1: many people do you know? And I know that what
Speaker 1: the world? From the outside looking in, you'd say super
Speaker 1: high achievers. And some of them are great, some of
Speaker 1: them are happy, fulfilled, but also some of them are not.
Speaker 1: Some of them are pretty sad, pretty depressed, pretty anxious,
Speaker 1: pretty medicated, pretty sleepless. But from the outside looking in,
Speaker 1: they're crushing, killing, grinding and winning a life. And then
Speaker 1: there are other people like one of my best you know, well,
Speaker 1: my longest best mate in the world, vin Is. It's
Speaker 1: not long, he's very long. He's seventy feet long, longest,
Speaker 1: but like we've been friends since we were eight nine,
Speaker 1: and you know, I went one way, vin one another.
Speaker 1: He went and did a trade, became a spark. He
Speaker 1: lives in the country and a great life and a
Speaker 1: great wife and great kids and grandkids. But in terms
Speaker 1: of the context of what we call the high water
Speaker 1: mark of like he's just a dude living a life,
Speaker 1: and it's a great life. But I look at him
Speaker 1: and I think he is one of the most successful
Speaker 1: people that I know, maybe in the top three when
Speaker 1: I factor in he loved his career. He worked on
Speaker 1: oil rigs in the middle of the bas Straight, which
Speaker 1: is the water between Victoria and Tazzy Bobby. So in
Speaker 1: the middle of the Bass Straight, working on oil rigs,
Speaker 1: week on, week off. Forever, great wife, great kids, it's mentally, emotionally, spiritually, physically,
Speaker 1: financially all good. And I look at him and I go, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's for me, that's a high one. I think, in
Speaker 1: many ways, much more successful than I've ever been. But
Speaker 1: it's like that, how do we evaluate that? How do
Speaker 1: we like, at what point do we stop hurrying and
Speaker 1: rushing and grinding and like do we ever stop doing that?
Speaker 1: And for some people maybe we don't need to, but yeah,
Speaker 1: I wonder what the trade off is in there.
Speaker 2: Well, for me, my definition of success is if you
Speaker 2: wake up in the morning and there's something you really
Speaker 2: want to do, there's a way that you want to
Speaker 2: spend your psychic energy and live your life, and in
Speaker 2: the evening, when you're reflecting back, you did that thing.
Speaker 2: You're a success. I know, for me, ambition has never
Speaker 2: been a motivator. It's not like I want to become
Speaker 2: something or achieve this thing. And you know that's people
Speaker 2: have a lot of different opinions about that, and that's
Speaker 2: fine for me. It's always about creating something, it's about
Speaker 2: contributing something, and it's also about the process, the nature
Speaker 2: of the work itself. And I said, I want to
Speaker 2: talk about flow experiences. You know, you hear these things
Speaker 2: where people say things like I engage in work not
Speaker 2: because I enjoy it, but because it needs to be done,
Speaker 2: And there are things like that. But my question is
Speaker 2: if the essence of your work itself is not bringing
Speaker 2: you enjoyment, are you really doing it well? Because when
Speaker 2: you look at flow, there are certain conditions, are like
Speaker 2: nine conditions and I couldn't, for the life of me
Speaker 2: rattle them off the top of my head. But one,
Speaker 2: you need to be really clear on why you're doing
Speaker 2: what you're doing. It has to be personally important to
Speaker 2: focus and concentration, and there's got to be this gotta
Speaker 2: be this level of effort like people talk about grinding,
Speaker 2: as if effort and enjoyment are the antitheses of one another.
Speaker 2: It's almost the measure of one another because like to
Speaker 2: get into that flow state, you've got to have an
Speaker 2: equal balance of your skill set at the current moment
Speaker 2: and the challenge. So you know, if you're engaging in
Speaker 2: something that's so far beyond your skill sets, you're not
Speaker 2: gonna learn, you're not gonna grow, you're not gonna produce
Speaker 2: anything worthwhile. What you're gonna produce is a state of
Speaker 2: anxiety and frustration. And if you're not working hard enough,
Speaker 2: it's not gonna be fulfilling and you're gonna be bored
Speaker 2: and maybe even frustrate. So that challenge is necessary. That's hard.
Speaker 2: It's hard to focus, it's hard to shut off your
Speaker 2: mobile phone, it's hard to not multitask and just focus
Speaker 2: intently on the task at hand. But if you do
Speaker 2: that and the conditions are right, within about ten fifteen minutes,
Speaker 2: you disappear. Everybody's had this, or I would imagine a
Speaker 2: lot of people have had this where you're working on
Speaker 2: something that's meaningful and it's really hard work, it's not
Speaker 2: easy to do, and then you pick your head up
Speaker 2: and it's like, wait a minute, four hours went by, Yeah,
Speaker 2: where did where? It's not only where did the time go?
Speaker 2: It's where did I go? And then you realize at
Speaker 2: the end of that four hours that you had this
Speaker 2: deep level of engagement and enjoyment. So if what you're
Speaker 2: working really hard on is not eliciting any joy, is
Speaker 2: it really meaningful to you? Are you single mindedly focusing
Speaker 2: on something or are you kind of like an octopus
Speaker 2: on rollerblades a lot of motion but no real direction
Speaker 2: because you're not really getting down to creating something or
Speaker 2: producing something. You're doing a lot of stuff and calling
Speaker 2: that hard work. But what's the outcome you're facilitating? I
Speaker 2: think that's an important question. I know that there are
Speaker 2: times where you know you can't do everything that you
Speaker 2: want to do, or some people are in situations where
Speaker 2: it's like, no, I mean, the purpose of my work
Speaker 2: is to feed my family. I hate my job, but
Speaker 2: you know I got people depending on me and that's
Speaker 2: my purpose and that is so understandable. But if you're
Speaker 2: that person that's saying, well, I do this, because you're
Speaker 2: also probably the same type of person that's saying well,
Speaker 2: the nature of your work is a choice. Doesn't mean
Speaker 2: it's going to change today, but it's a series of choices.
Speaker 2: What are the choices you're making that's robbing you of
Speaker 2: engagement and enjoyment, because that's also robbing you have optimal
Speaker 2: performance given your personal potential.
Speaker 1: When you talked to me for about sitting on the
Speaker 1: plane next to you might who is looking at watches
Speaker 1: and cars in airplane magazines, and you rebuked him in
Speaker 1: all your righteousness, how are you different from that guy?
Speaker 1: And by that, I mean I feel like you and
Speaker 1: work you and your career, your your knowledge, your like
Speaker 1: it was one like that's where you got your sense
Speaker 1: of self from what you know and your skill and
Speaker 1: and you know your your job is that is there
Speaker 1: space between those things and you?
Speaker 2: Now, yeah, I think there is. I mean, I love
Speaker 2: spending time with my wife, like I'm proud of the
Speaker 2: relationship and dynamic we've built and the challenges that we
Speaker 2: navigate together.
Speaker 1: I love my mates.
Speaker 2: It just so happens that for such a long period
Speaker 2: of time, my closest mates were intertwined with my work. So,
Speaker 2: and you said something earlier, you want to talk about
Speaker 2: success when you don't know where your work ends and
Speaker 2: where your play begins. That success and when when you
Speaker 2: are chastising someone who is a legend in front of
Speaker 2: a room and can teach complicated concepts with with fun
Speaker 2: and simplicity in a way that evokes confidence in the audience.
Speaker 2: And you're chastising that guy because he saw a car
Speaker 2: that he thinks is kind of cool. That's not success.
Speaker 2: That is not the mark of a of a successful life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, hi mate, I love chatting to you. You're
Speaker 1: always fascinating and interesting and I know that. And for
Speaker 1: those who don't know who met Bobby today for the
Speaker 1: first time, how can I connect with you? What do
Speaker 1: you what do you wanna? Where do you want to
Speaker 1: direct our listeners?
Speaker 2: You can go to Robert Capuccio dot com. I'm there. Well,
Speaker 2: I'm not technically there, it's virtual, but yeah, you can
Speaker 2: send me a message. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm not big
Speaker 2: on social media for a lot of reasons that are
Speaker 2: beyond the scope of this conversation, but LinkedIn is is
Speaker 2: probably the best social media platform to catch me.
Speaker 1: I thank you.
Speaker 2: Also, I do, I do, I do have a podcast,
Speaker 2: the self Help and to thank you for that dot com?
Speaker 1: All right, mate, appreciate you, love you. We'll say goodbye
Speaker 1: fair but thanks dude.
Speaker 2: Thanks Greig