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Speaker 1: Bobby Capuccio, Welcome back to the You Project.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Craig, good to see you.

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Speaker 1: Are you ready Sunday, You're ready. I did just throw

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Speaker 1: you in quickly there because you and I were having

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Speaker 1: a casual chat. Can you have a casual chat about

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump and politics in America, in the state of

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Speaker 1: the world, if that's possible. That's what we were just doing.

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Speaker 1: But we were getting a little deep and dark, so

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Speaker 1: I went, fuck it, let's record something. Let's do a

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Speaker 1: podcast about something lighter.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think part of the problem is that we're

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Speaker 2: increasingly having the inability to have a casual chat about anything.

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Speaker 1: Mmmmm, especially in this Well, that's what we try and

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Speaker 1: do here.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I didn't mean here in the U Project.

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Speaker 2: I mean here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, fascinating casual chats. And it's a very deep

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Speaker 2: intellectual ones as well.

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Speaker 1: I mean I think yeah, well, I think more broadly,

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Speaker 1: like outside of the U Project, which is is there

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Speaker 1: a world outside of the U Project? Apparently there is,

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Speaker 1: but it's a myriad of echo chambers, political and social

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Speaker 1: and religious and cultural and fitness and food, and everybody

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Speaker 1: thinks that whatever they think is the right thing, and

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Speaker 1: everybody thinks that anyone who doesn't think like them is

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Speaker 1: the wrong thing, and it's probably not going Is that

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Speaker 1: more than ever, do you think? Or is that just

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Speaker 1: that we're more aware of it now these echo chambers

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Speaker 1: and the confirmation bias and if you don't think like mey,

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Speaker 1: you're bad, You're horrible. I hate you wear enemies? Is

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Speaker 1: that more or is it the same but with more awareness?

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't know, but my guess would be both.

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Speaker 2: I think we've always had these tendencies. I mean we're

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Speaker 2: tribal people, right, so yeah, anything any like, you know,

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Speaker 2: you meet a different tribe, you don't know. They could

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Speaker 2: have the best of intentions. I could be treating food

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Speaker 2: for first tonight, or they could kill me, like on

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Speaker 2: first contact. So like, suspicion and aggression sometimes is something

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Speaker 2: that I think is built into our DNA as a

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Speaker 2: survival mechanism. So I don't think human have changed very much.

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Speaker 2: I mean it was it take one thousand generations for heredity,

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Speaker 2: natural selection, and gene mutation to alter us in any

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Speaker 2: meaningful way. So you figure the average life expectancy of

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Speaker 2: each generation has been about twenty five years. Yeah, so

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Speaker 2: we're probably the same people we were ten thousand years

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Speaker 2: ago and a little bit different than we were fifty

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Speaker 2: thousand years ago. But the environment we're in I think

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Speaker 2: exacerbates some of those natural tendencies. I mean, we've never

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Speaker 2: been fed monologues back and forth on a social media platform,

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Speaker 2: you know, inundated with people who are exactly like us,

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Speaker 2: you know, being forced into an ever increasing echo chamber

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Speaker 2: that were plugged into twenty four seven. So who knows.

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Speaker 1: And it's interesting because you've got to be I reckon

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Speaker 1: if you're going to start talking about echo chambers and

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Speaker 1: you know, confirmation bias in this group versus that group,

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Speaker 1: and you know, the different kind of ideologies and philosophies

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Speaker 1: and who's where and who's what and who's not, you've

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Speaker 1: got to also realize that you're like I have to

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Speaker 1: if I'm being authentic and real, I have to realize

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Speaker 1: that I am part of that because I literally have

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Speaker 1: a group of people that follow me and listen to

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Speaker 1: me and read me, who for the most part probably

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Speaker 1: think somewhat similarly. Ergo the allegiance and the alliance, and

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Speaker 1: then in the middle of that, like for me, I

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Speaker 1: think it's really important to go I wonder what I'm

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Speaker 1: getting wrong, or I wonder what could be wrong, because

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Speaker 1: when I reflect and I think, well, have I gotten

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Speaker 1: things wrong in the past, Oh, only about a million?

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Speaker 1: So what am I currently quite adamant about that could

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Speaker 1: be completely fucking wrong, you know. And I think, unless

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Speaker 1: you look through that lens of this is what I believe,

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Speaker 1: and this is what I think. But at the same time,

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Speaker 1: I've been wrong frequently, So perhaps some of this, all

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Speaker 1: of this, or none of this I could be wrong about.

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Speaker 2: Well I don't. I guess is that you, like every

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Speaker 2: one of usrobably get a lot wrong, you probably get

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Speaker 2: a lot right. I think a podcast is a really

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Speaker 2: different environment, different dynamic, because you have a certain frame

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Speaker 2: through which you look at the world and you have

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Speaker 2: a strong opinion about it. And I'm starting to value

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Speaker 2: strongly held opinion, not strongly held, but strong opinions that

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Speaker 2: are lightly held, that are malleable. You kind of have

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Speaker 2: a have to have a point of view as an

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Speaker 2: anchor point that people can relate to form much to

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Speaker 2: start a dialogue, you know, good luck starting a dialogue

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Speaker 2: with just you know, just ambiguity. But on social media

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Speaker 2: that's going to bleed through to the people that it attracts.

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Speaker 2: Where on a podcast you're sharing dynamic ideas and you

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Speaker 2: have a very wide range of guests with different opinions

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Speaker 2: that engage with you, and by extension, you know, we're

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Speaker 2: engaging with your audience right now. So I love podcasts

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Speaker 2: because it's a medium to kind of vicariously flush out

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Speaker 2: ideas between two or you know, sometimes more people. I

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Speaker 2: think it's different than when you belong to a certain

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Speaker 2: group on social media or and algorithms trying to say, okay,

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Speaker 2: well what's Craig into. Well, we're just going to feed

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Speaker 2: him people who think exactly like him, and eventually, you know,

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Speaker 2: you would come to the conclusion that well, this is

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Speaker 2: just the way the world is now, it's just the

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Speaker 2: way you are and the people that you're communicating with,

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Speaker 2: or it's not necessarily the way the world is. So

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Speaker 2: I don't know I favor one medium over another.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that idea that you know, like, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, Let's have ten thousand people listening to you

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Speaker 1: and may talk, right, and probably every one of those

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Speaker 1: ten thousand people will have a different experience to some

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Speaker 1: or all of what we're saying. Somebody might think this

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Speaker 1: is interesting. Some might think it's boring, some might think

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Speaker 1: it's confusing, some might have already pressed stop, you know,

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Speaker 1: and it's it's understanding that you know, there's my true

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Speaker 1: and your truth, and then the objective truth. And then

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Speaker 1: with some things, I don't think there is an absolute

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Speaker 1: objective truth depending on what we're talking about, you know,

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Speaker 1: And I think that people don't sometimes and this is

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Speaker 1: me as well. You don't realize that this thing that

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Speaker 1: you think is not the objective, practical, real world reality,

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Speaker 1: but just rather your version of it that you think

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Speaker 1: is the actual reality.

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Speaker 2: I get everything you're saying. I think there's one layer

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Speaker 2: that we're missing, the wei. So when you talk about truths,

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Speaker 2: there are absolute truths that are truths, regardless of how

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Speaker 2: you feel about them. Yes, you can be completely ignorant

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Speaker 2: to them, they still exist. And then there's your personal truth,

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Speaker 2: you know. So if you grew up at a very

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Speaker 2: violent household, you might adapt the belief that people are dangerous,

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Speaker 2: and you know what, you're right they are. But that's

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Speaker 2: not the only truth. But then there's also the collative truths,

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Speaker 2: Like we all agree on this, and I think that's

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Speaker 2: where we have to be really careful. Some collective truths. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: justice and fairness and respect for the individual. Those are

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Speaker 2: very good. But I think when your thought processes and

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Speaker 2: beliefs are tied in with a collective truth of an organization,

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Speaker 2: a certain society, I think you run into trouble because

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Speaker 2: those can be manipulated, and because you so strongly identify

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Speaker 2: with belonging to that group and believing that thing, you

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Speaker 2: could be easily manipulated. And I think you know, very

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Speaker 2: often we probably are, to varying degrees, and.

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Speaker 1: Of course for all of those groups, you need to

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Speaker 1: comply and conform and believe in a line to be

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Speaker 1: a member. Yeah, because membership, that's it. It's like, yeah, sure,

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Speaker 1: I'm a bit tarian, but every now and then i'd

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Speaker 1: love a bit of steak. Sorry you're out of the group.

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Speaker 1: You sure. I'm a Christian. I don't believe that Jesus

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Speaker 1: was the Messiah, but the rest of it, I'm on board.

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Speaker 1: You know. It's like, no, dude, no, this is these

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Speaker 1: are not optional, like belong to our group. You need

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Speaker 1: to think this, believe this, and do that. Oh okay,

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Speaker 1: so it's a cult. It's like I can't push back

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Speaker 1: or I can't you know, and I understand why that happens,

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Speaker 1: but it is, you know. And I've been in a

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Speaker 1: few cults of my own and different shapes and sizes

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Speaker 1: and forms.

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Speaker 2: And you still have the robe. I mean, I see

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Speaker 2: you're still cap it with a haircut, as did I.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, well we've talked about I think you and

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Speaker 1: I have even spoken about starting a cult. How much

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Speaker 1: it'd be fun for about a year. Then it'd be

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Speaker 1: a fucking nightmare. But again, if.

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Speaker 2: I was going to start, it's just two old guys

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Speaker 2: rationalized and being bolt.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I would all it a cult, though I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: pretend it was something else. I think that's the that's

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Speaker 1: the first win. You go when people go, oh, that's

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Speaker 1: a cult, you go, yes it is, and then they're

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Speaker 1: fucked like what do they do? Then you go, of

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Speaker 1: course it's a cult. Of course it's a cult.

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Speaker 2: With even that's not going to work because you're not

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Speaker 2: lawing them in under false pretenses. So now they have

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Speaker 2: the freedom of choice of whether or not to join

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Speaker 2: the cult. What self respecting cult gives that level of

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Speaker 2: freedom of choice? Other cults will hang shit on you. You'll

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Speaker 2: lose all respect from all other cult leaders, don't do it.

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Speaker 2: It's going to ruin your reputation.

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Speaker 1: It's going to tarnish my reputation. What about I mean,

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Speaker 1: do you think that it's what the what's the downside

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Speaker 1: of this is not the right term, but being open minded? Like,

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Speaker 1: where's the insection between being open minded and being vulnerable

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Speaker 1: or gullible or naive?

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Speaker 2: Like?

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Speaker 1: Because at the same time, we, you know, most of

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Speaker 1: us have pretty set beliefs about certain things. We have

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Speaker 1: non negotiables. Do we have to be open minded about anything?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I think talking about politics, I think for me,

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Speaker 2: the answers not the best answers and the only answers,

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Speaker 2: but the most plausible ones are somewhere in the middle.

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Speaker 2: So whenever you say this or this, I get very suspicious.

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Speaker 2: It's somewhere within that middle range. And which side it's

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Speaker 2: indexed more towards I think is contextual. But for me,

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Speaker 2: I went from being in I'll speak from personal experience,

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Speaker 2: because I can't speak for everybody because they're already taken,

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Speaker 2: aren't they. I went from being in my twenties highly

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Speaker 2: dogmatic about what I believed. I was unwavering, unyielding. I

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Speaker 2: knew I was right. I didn't necessarily think that everybody

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Speaker 2: else was wrong unless it came to work practices, than

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Speaker 2: I was highly opinionated, and I think it caused me

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Speaker 2: a lot of pain and frustration, growth edges that kept

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Speaker 2: me stunted, and it definitely didn't enhance my relationships and

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Speaker 2: my ability to connect with others outside of work. But

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Speaker 2: then I went the opposite direction to where I started

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Speaker 2: challenging my own beliefs and I became hopelessly agnostic about

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Speaker 2: all things. So my answer to everything was it depends.

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Speaker 2: I kind of think where I'm at now is an

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Speaker 2: internal versus external frame. Internally, I think there's value knowing

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Speaker 2: these are my principles. This is what I believe to

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Speaker 2: be true. Not absolute truths, but my truths. These are

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Speaker 2: the rules I live by, you know, So this is

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Speaker 2: what I value. I think that gives you a level

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Speaker 2: of consistency when everything else around you is beyond your

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Speaker 2: control and increasingly unpredictable, which exacerbates the stress response or

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Speaker 2: the adverse impact of the stress response. But I think

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Speaker 2: when it comes to things externally facing, I try not

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Speaker 2: to have very strong opinions about who people are or

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Speaker 2: why they do what they do, unless unless there's something

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Speaker 2: that so strongly contradicts one of my principles, not even

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Speaker 2: necessarily my values. I can associate with people who have

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Speaker 2: different values than man. I enjoy it because I feel

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Speaker 2: the time I become enriched, I grow. But certain principles

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Speaker 2: like justice or fairness. So if you feel like you know,

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Speaker 2: people of a certain height don't deserve the rights and

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Speaker 2: the dignity that I deserve, Yeah, that's that's kind of

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Speaker 2: a problem for me. But with everything else, Like I said,

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Speaker 2: I have very strong internalized opinions that are held quite loosely.

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Speaker 1: I think also, like what might be absolutely true for

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Speaker 1: you might not be for somebody else. Like it's true

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Speaker 1: for me that eating two meals a day works, and

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Speaker 1: I've got evidence and data and it's true for me.

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Speaker 1: So for me, two meals a day are great, But

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't recommend it for anyone else necessarily because they're

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Speaker 1: not me. They don't have my body, they don't respond

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Speaker 1: necessarily the same as they may, but they probably won't.

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Speaker 1: And so there's this. I think you can realize that

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Speaker 1: for you, certain beliefs or ideas or truths might be

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Speaker 1: super valuable and appropriate, But knowing that that's just for me,

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Speaker 1: it might not necessarily work for the next person. Like

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Speaker 1: I've spoken a lot about the fact that I didn't

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Speaker 1: want a job when I was young. I wanted to work,

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Speaker 1: but I didn't want to be an employee, and I

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Speaker 1: realized that that was I didn't think that that was

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Speaker 1: globally the best idea, but I realized that for me,

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Speaker 1: that was a good idea. And then and it turned

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Speaker 1: out that I was right about that. But then to

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Speaker 1: pursue that fully knowing that this is not a general thing,

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Speaker 1: this is a Craig thing. And so when I would

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Speaker 1: talk to people and I would coach them or mentor

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Speaker 1: them or help them, I would not on any level

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Speaker 1: try and sell them on what works for me, but

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Speaker 1: rather to try to understand them. Of course a coach

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Speaker 1: should do this, but to figure out where they're at

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Speaker 1: and what they value, and what might be the ideal

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Speaker 1: you know, path or process or protocol for them.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: But it's like these things can be true that or

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Speaker 1: these things can be simultaneous in that for me this

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Speaker 1: is true, but for you this is false, or this

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Speaker 1: is untrue.

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Speaker 2: I wonder why there's such a strong need, not even desire,

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Speaker 2: for a consensus. Yeah, why is it unacceptable for two

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Speaker 2: people to hold totally different frames of reference, different opinions? Right?

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Speaker 2: Why do you need to agree with me down to

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Speaker 2: like what we eat?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 2: Why is that?

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Speaker 1: So?

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Speaker 2: I think it could be a couple of things. I

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Speaker 2: know for me, I was so insecure when I was

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Speaker 2: in my twenties and I was rigid. I thought if

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Speaker 2: I let up for even one second, I was going back.

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Speaker 2: I was going to slip back into a very dangerous situation.

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Speaker 2: And I was I was getting all these inputs that

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Speaker 2: gave me hope, like if you think like this, if

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Speaker 2: you behave like this, if you follow this life philosophy

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Speaker 2: and formula, it will work out for you as long

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Speaker 2: as you put in the work. It's inevitable. And there

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Speaker 2: are two types of people in the world, and you

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Speaker 2: know you could be of the good kind, and then

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Speaker 2: you know there's the bad kind, and they're bad because

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Speaker 2: they choose to be bad. And it's like, oh, okay, great,

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Speaker 2: so I'm guaranteed success as long as I grind. But

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Speaker 2: I still had all this insecurity and fear that I

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Speaker 2: was going to be found out, and I still had

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Speaker 2: an unhealthy attachment to what people thought of me, even

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Speaker 2: though I pretended that I didn't. So if I encountered

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Speaker 2: somebody with a completely different philosophy that was threatening to me,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, what if they're right and I'm wrong,

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Speaker 2: then I have no guarantee that I'm not safe. I

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Speaker 2: am in crisis, I am in threat. I haven't really

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Speaker 2: moved beyond the circumstances that I so desperately tried to

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Speaker 2: escape from. I think that's one aspect. Then there's the

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Speaker 2: aspect of, you know, maybe people are just secretly it's

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Speaker 2: kind of like a shadow characteristic. It's unacceptable for me

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Speaker 2: to come out and say I enjoy hurting people because

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Speaker 2: I am resentful and bitter that my life did not

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Speaker 2: work out the way I thought it should have worked

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Speaker 2: out for me. So there's this enemy, and all of

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Speaker 2: the problems in the world are because of people like this.

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Speaker 2: So me, I'm not this horrible human being that hates

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Speaker 2: people who disagrees with me or will maliciously try to

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Speaker 2: harm individuals who have done nothing wrong to me or

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Speaker 2: objectively nothing wrong at all. That's not me, Like I'm

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Speaker 2: a good person. What I'm doing is defending righteousness and

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Speaker 2: truth because that's the enemy. But not what I'm really

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Speaker 2: not doing is taking responsibility for the fact that, hey,

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Speaker 2: your life might suck because things happened that was outside

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Speaker 2: of your control. But there's not this enemy to blame.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of like when you, like when you were

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Speaker 2: in school, like my dad could beat up your dad,

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Speaker 2: Like you believe that there's one type of person that's

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Speaker 2: responsible for all the evils in the world, and you

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Speaker 2: and people like you are responsible as being the beacons

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Speaker 2: of truth and goodness. That is a juvenile way of

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Speaker 2: looking at the world. You've got to look at a

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Speaker 2: little bit deeper and take a little bit more responsibility. Again,

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Speaker 2: not saying that anything that is causing that resentment is

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Speaker 2: your fault, but you do have the ability to respond responsibility.

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Speaker 2: I think that's a far more constructive way than creating

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Speaker 2: an imaginary enemy to aim all of your ankstat which

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Speaker 2: I think but some people might be the case.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, It's interesting how much we, or how many

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Speaker 1: of us how often think that whatever's not working in

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Speaker 1: my life, it's somehow it's got nothing to do with me.

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Speaker 1: It's like, well, there's a fair chance it's got something,

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Speaker 1: you know, And like you said, there are a lot

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Speaker 1: of extraneous variables. Bad shit happens to good people. We

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Speaker 1: know that. We're not saying that it doesn't. We're not

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Speaker 1: saying that what happened to you isn't real or isn't valid,

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Speaker 1: or isn't horrible. But then there's still okay, So we

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Speaker 1: get that, we acknowledge that. But here we are now,

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Speaker 1: and that's you know, being able to work through the shit,

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Speaker 1: like just being able to roll up your sleeves and go, look,

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Speaker 1: this is unfair, this is this is tough, this is horrible,

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Speaker 1: and yep, I agree with you. And today's a new day.

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Speaker 1: And even though all that's happened, what are you going

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Speaker 1: to do today? What decisions you're going to make, What

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Speaker 1: action are you going to take? And how are you

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Speaker 1: going to do the very best you can to optimize

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Speaker 1: you and what you have to work with? And I

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Speaker 1: think also there's another bit to that you were talking

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Speaker 1: about where I just wrote down here, the need to

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Speaker 1: know you know, it's like when we, like you said,

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Speaker 1: the need to for consensus, like why do we have

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Speaker 1: to agree? Also, why do we have to why do

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Speaker 1: we have to have an opinion? Or why do we

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Speaker 1: have to like, oh, what do you think of this

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Speaker 1: or that I don't, I don't know, or what do

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Speaker 1: you you know the amount of times where people have

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Speaker 1: asked me like a men question because you know, they

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Speaker 1: think and I'm like, I don't know. They're like, but what,

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Speaker 1: I go, well, one, I'm an excised scientist. And even then,

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Speaker 1: you know, a five out of ten. But you know,

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Speaker 1: you're literally asking me a question you should ask a neurosagin,

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Speaker 1: you know, just going ah, look, I don't know. I

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Speaker 1: could make some shit up, you know, like the amount

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Speaker 1: of times people have said, can you put your hand

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Speaker 1: on my shoulder or something similar? And I do that

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Speaker 1: then they move their arm, Oh what's that clunking? I go, Fuck,

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Speaker 1: that feels and sounds terrible. I've got no idea, but

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Speaker 1: good luck with that.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: It's like me diagnosing some problem, some clinical problem, without

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Speaker 1: the without the information, without the really without the experience

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Speaker 1: of the training. It's like, I don't know, dude, I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know, and I don't know what

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Speaker 1: happens when we die, and I don't know whether this

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Speaker 1: is right or wrong, and I don't I just don't know.

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Speaker 1: And also I don't know if I'm right about this,

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Speaker 1: this is what I think, but also so I don't

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Speaker 1: actually know. That's why it's called a belief or faith

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Speaker 1: or a thought. Like this compulsion that we seem to

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Speaker 1: have to want to know things and to have certainty

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Speaker 1: in a world that is largely uncertain. It's almost like

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Speaker 1: an emotional handicap.

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Speaker 2: I think our need to know things kind of drives

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Speaker 2: our growth obviously. I mean, if we didn't need to know,

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Speaker 2: nobody would have built ships and sailed across the ocean.

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Speaker 2: But it's this that there's there's a dark side to

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Speaker 2: it as well. Maybe it's because maybe it's because there's

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Speaker 2: so many things we don't know that it's just grasping

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Speaker 2: at a level of certainty so we could feel a

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Speaker 2: little bit safer. Yeah, But I mean, for me, people

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Speaker 2: who are willing to live in the question not necessarily

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Speaker 2: have the answer. I respect those people, Like there's nothing

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Speaker 2: more respectable than an educator person authentically saying I don't know, yeah,

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Speaker 2: and it's like, oh wow, that's curious, and maybe it's like, hey,

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Speaker 2: let's go find out, or maybe it's just I don't know,

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Speaker 2: I'm not really interested. But I there's this thing about

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Speaker 2: how we interact with ourselves that is probably even more

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Speaker 2: important than how we interact with other people. And this

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Speaker 2: is something I've really struggled with still do so I

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Speaker 2: find it fascinating, you know, I've kind of looked at

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Speaker 2: things like self compassion when people talk about things like

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Speaker 2: that as a bit self indulgent and almost the antithesis

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Speaker 2: of mental tenacity or grit and God, the more I'm

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Speaker 2: diving into this, I kind of knew, like, there's there's

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Speaker 2: some empirical evidence out there that would suggest I'm dead wrong.

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Speaker 2: But I'm discovering increasingly that I couldn't be more incorrect.

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Speaker 2: Have you ever read any Kristin Neff or Susan David?

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Speaker 2: I have not. I think you'd love Susan David should

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Speaker 2: be a great guest for the show. Actually, And in

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Speaker 2: like Kristin Neff's research, people who are compassionate with themselves.

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Speaker 1: What is she can just ask what is her field

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Speaker 1: and psychology?

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Speaker 2: So basically, people who approach themselves with acceptance and compassion.

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Speaker 2: Like you would if you were observing a flawed person

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Speaker 2: make mistakes, you wouldn't condemn them. You wouldn't say, well,

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Speaker 2: what you do is reflective of who you are. No,

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Speaker 2: it's just what I did. It's not the trutality of

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Speaker 2: who I am, unless, of course, you're a serial killer,

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Speaker 2: and then yeah, that's really bad all around. No rationalizing that.

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Speaker 2: But people who act from a space of grace with

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Speaker 2: themselves and acceptance of their limitations, that flaws, where their

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Speaker 2: knowledge ends things that we're talking about, tend to take

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Speaker 2: a lot more personal responsibility and they more readily transform

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Speaker 2: and grow throughout their lives. I think, if I'm not

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Speaker 2: stuffing this all up. She did an experiment where there

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Speaker 2: were people who operated with a high level of self

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Speaker 2: compassion and those that you know pretty much had globalized

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Speaker 2: internal beliefs about themselves that were not kind. You know

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Speaker 2: people like that. We've probably been people like that where

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Speaker 2: you do something, God, how can you be so stupid?

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Speaker 2: And in a job interview when it came up discuss

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Speaker 2: some of your weaknesses and shortcomings. The people who were

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Speaker 2: highly self compassionate and accepting were able to articulate and

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Speaker 2: take responsibility for what their weaknesses were and either accepted

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Speaker 2: it and they had ways of working around it, or

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Speaker 2: they were working on transform and becoming better, where other

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Speaker 2: people who lacked self compassion became highly disturbed and flustered,

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Speaker 2: which is really not a good look in an interview.

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Speaker 2: So we kind of look at these things like acceptance

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Speaker 2: of self compassion as being soft qualities. They're nothing, They're

431
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,400
Speaker 2: nothing of the salt. I think it's reflective of strength.

432
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:27,920
Speaker 2: What I wonder is, does compassion just begat compassion? Are

433
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 2: we discompassionate with other people? And do we have no

434
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 2: tolerance for people who see the world through a different

435
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 2: lens than us because we hold that same space of

436
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 2: complete intolerance for ourselves in our inner world. I wonder

437
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 2: if there's an inverse kind of causality with that. My

438
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 2: guess would be, yeah, probably.

439
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 1: What I love that. I love that. What where does

440
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:58,679
Speaker 1: self compassion? Can it? Spit like? It seems like a

441
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 1: good idea, But so are we talking about like you

442
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 1: were talking there about in a job interview. They might

443
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:10,200
Speaker 1: be able to identify certain weaknesses or limitations, but then

444
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 1: with the capacity to without beating yourself up, then commit

445
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,359
Speaker 1: to working on those things, to improving, to learning, to growing,

446
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 1: to grow, to evolve. So it doesn't it's not just

447
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 1: about self compassion, but also being able to then leverage

448
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 1: off that and do something positive.

449
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, definitely, But I think What is becoming more

450
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,160
Speaker 2: obvious to me is if you don't have that self compassion,

451
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 2: you're not going to get to that point. You're just

452
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 2: going to keep ruminating over I am and whatever comes

453
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 2: after That is probably not constructive and it's probably more accurate.

454
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 2: But once you start to integrate that thought pattern and

455
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 2: the emotional consequence, first of all, you're not very resourceful.

456
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 2: That's not really good for utilizing your prefrontal lobes that

457
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 2: are optimal capacity. And when you have that internalization of

458
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:07,160
Speaker 2: that identity, you're bound to or you're far more likely

459
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 2: I should stay to kind of repeat those behaviors that

460
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 2: you strongly identify with, you know, like I'm so I'm

461
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 2: so fucking lazy. Well what a lazy people do? Not much?

462
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, that's not you.

463
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 2: You know, you might have had a lazy Sunday, I

464
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 2: don't know, maybe a lazy Friday in Sacha as well,

465
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 2: But is that something you engaged in or is that

466
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,120
Speaker 2: who you are at your core? That's not useful?

467
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, I guess even you know, I've been

468
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 1: lazy this week or whatever. But what I'm going to

469
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 1: do starting now is this or you know, where you

470
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:50,400
Speaker 1: can acknowledge something and build some kind of momentum off

471
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,120
Speaker 1: the back of that awareness without the self loathing thrown in.

472
00:27:55,119 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, or maybe a little bit of compassion decreases your

473
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,159
Speaker 2: level of reactiveness to what happened. You might ask yourself

474
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 2: some better questions. Like if I had a friend of

475
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,120
Speaker 2: mine who said, you know, I took three days where

476
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 2: I did absolutely nothing, It's like, oh, wow, you know,

477
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 2: it sounds like you were really exhausted. How was your week?

478
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 2: You know, I would ask a couple of questions. Person's

479
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 2: probably maybe those three days were the most productive thing

480
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 2: they could have possibly done. I mean, if Dmitri Mendely

481
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,119
Speaker 2: didn't like quit and just like take a nap, we

482
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:32,919
Speaker 2: wouldn't have the periodic table, would we. Because there's a

483
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 2: point where you're grinding and grinding your prefrontal lobes into

484
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 2: absolute submission and you have to step back and just

485
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 2: let your default mode network operate in your favor. So

486
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 2: you know, it's just or you know what, maybe you

487
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 2: really were lazy. What does that mean? It means you

488
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 2: were lazy and like you said, all right, maybe it

489
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 2: it's time to make a change. What's my first step

490
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 2: in doing that? What's going to be different today. What's

491
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 2: my plan? What's the one thing where do I start?

492
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 2: That's going to be a far more constructive conversation if

493
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 2: you're not engaging in the emotional intensity that comes along

494
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 2: with self loathing. And I'm not saying if you're doing

495
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 2: something like really wrong, you don't deserve to feel guilty.

496
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 2: I think. I think guilt and pain and a little

497
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 2: bit of suffering is good when you do something that

498
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:28,479
Speaker 2: violates your values or you know, hurts somebody else, you know,

499
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 2: in even a worst case scenario. But long term internalization

500
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 2: of shame is probably not a good transformative strategy. It's

501
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 2: probably one of the worst things you can engauge in.

502
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: It is true that you know, when we're in the

503
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 1: middle of things, sometimes it's hard to have perspective because

504
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 1: you're in the middle of it. But when you step back,

505
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 1: have three days off for example, or three hours off

506
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 1: ul you know you're in a different place, perhaps geographically,

507
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: you can see things that you couldn't before because you're

508
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 1: in either metaphorically or literally in a different place. And yeah,

509
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 1: I always find that you travel a lot. I travel

510
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 1: a fair bit, and I find that I see things

511
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 1: differently just when i'm in another state or another country.

512
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: Like the way that I think about things is different,

513
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 1: just because I'm in a different environment and I'm in

514
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: a different room. I'm looking at a different I'm looking

515
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 1: at an ocean, I'm eating in different places, I'm talking

516
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,239
Speaker 1: a different It's like, oh Wow. The way that I

517
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 1: get better in that spot is to get away from

518
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: that spot, because I can have a level of perspective

519
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 1: and understanding an insight when I'm away from the thing

520
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: than when I'm in the middle of the thing. I

521
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: can't see it. It's like I can't see my house

522
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: when I'm in my house. I'm going to get out

523
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 1: of the fucking house, walk to the other side of

524
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 1: the street and go, oh, my gutter is falling down.

525
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: I didn't know because I've been in the kitchen for

526
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 1: three years. Ah, the fucking three of the tiles have

527
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 1: come off. Ah. I needed to get out of my

528
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 1: house to see what was really happening.

529
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 2: That is so smart, Like sometimes just changing your environment

530
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 2: is the exact thing you need to formulate a different perspective.

531
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 2: I love that I wanted to see my house. If

532
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 2: I'm in my house.

533
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: I can't see it. I've got to get out of

534
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: the fucking joint and walk over the road or get back.

535
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 1: And hey, I wanted to ask you before. You said

536
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 1: when you were younger, and you and I were quite

537
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 1: you and I, there's a lot more parallels than a

538
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: lot more convergence than divergence, they say in science, Bobby,

539
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: as you know, but I reckon you and I were

540
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,719
Speaker 1: probably quite dogmatic when we were younger. I was, and

541
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 1: you said you were. Tell me as much or as

542
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 1: little as you want me and the listeners. What are

543
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 1: some things that either you've just revisit it where you're like,

544
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 1: I'm not sure about that anymore, or you've done in

545
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: one id, or you've let something go and let something

546
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: else in, like if you could. Because I think this

547
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 1: understanding and being prepared to learn new things and unlearn

548
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 1: old things is hugely important.

549
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 2: I'll talk about nine to eleven because there's been certain

550
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 2: like everybody has milestones or these significant events that changed

551
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 2: the course of their life. One of them for me

552
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 2: was nine to eleven because I lived down by the

553
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 2: World Trade Center, so I was right underneath those towers,

554
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 2: and I think up until nine to eleven, like I

555
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 2: have friends of mine who we're really tight and we

556
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 2: get on really well. But when they were traveling with

557
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 2: me prior to nine to eleven, they hated it because

558
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 2: I was so difficult to travel with. I would get

559
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 2: into the office every morning at six am. I would

560
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 2: not leave the office until probably eight pm. And when

561
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 2: we were on a road trip, I should travel with

562
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 2: my friend Rob, who is one of he's one of

563
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 2: the greatest presenters teachers I've ever worked with. And you

564
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 2: know those like in flight magazines. Yeah, I have all

565
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 2: like the cars and the watches, and he'd flip through

566
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 2: one and he would showing me something like, oh, check

567
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 2: this out, sitting next to me and with complext God,

568
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 2: this is this is ridiculous, with complete disdain. I would

569
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 2: look over at him, my textbook in hand, and I

570
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 2: would say, travel time is working time. You should be preparing. Wow, thanks,

571
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 2: this is this is gonna be a fun trip. And

572
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,959
Speaker 2: I kind of had that personality type to the degree

573
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 2: that my girlfriend at the time was in my apartment

574
00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 2: joing nine to eleven and she has like a lot

575
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 2: of stuff coming down on top of her literally, and

576
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 2: she has no idea what's going on. Because I had

577
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 2: no TV in my house, I had no radio because

578
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 2: to me, I used to call it the the electronic

579
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 2: income Reducer. The TV.

580
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,760
Speaker 1: Wrote that down that radio.

581
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that that is so charming. You could you

582
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:29,359
Speaker 2: could tell like how hot I was too to her.

583
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 2: She must have she.

584
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 1: Must can I just say it to wonder You had

585
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 1: a girlfriend, dude.

586
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 2: I didn't have many, and the ones I had it

587
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 2: was I mean, like, I'm still friends with these people,

588
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:44,399
Speaker 2: and I'm just like, how did you do this?

589
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 1: And then Radio, I've traveled with you quite a bit.

590
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 1: I think you you improved since those days.

591
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,399
Speaker 2: Oh it was a complete turner and you're talking about

592
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 2: a one eighty and radio was chewing gum for the brain.

593
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 2: It's like I had all these beliefs, like all I

594
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 2: had around me was books, Like this was like before

595
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 2: social media, books, CDs. I even had those cassette tapes,

596
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 2: which were kind of outdated at this point, but they

597
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 2: still had value to me. And I couldn't even communicate

598
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 2: with her like I couldn't. It was so hard for

599
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 2: me to call my girlfriend. I was in midtown and

600
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 2: say hey, get out of my house and start walking

601
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 2: north as fast as you possibly can. And I had

602
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 2: to come down and get her and then living in

603
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:35,800
Speaker 2: Lower Manhattan, I started getting progressively sicker and sicker. And

604
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 2: I think how I described it once, because you know

605
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,280
Speaker 2: it's hard to explain, is that to produce a thought.

606
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 2: It felt like somebody was cutting through my brain with

607
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:51,320
Speaker 2: a jagged, rusted piece of metal. And that's how I functioned.

608
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 2: So I couldn't work fifteen eighteen hours a day. I

609
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,479
Speaker 2: could only I could only work like three hours before

610
00:35:57,520 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 2: I was completely wiped.

611
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 1: So for me, hamd Ham, I need I need the

612
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 1: connection between what are you saying after nine to eleven?

613
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I was getting so sick living in that

614
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 2: toxic dust cloud, right.

615
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 1: And so this living in that post nine to eleven

616
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:20,799
Speaker 1: toxic dust cloud was fucking up your brain function yep. Right.

617
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:25,840
Speaker 2: It was such an ego deconstructing experience. And then after

618
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,919
Speaker 2: that I was living down there for a while and

619
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 2: in I think, what was it leak June or anyway,

620
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 2: it's probably late June.

621
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:39,240
Speaker 1: I love your terms. I'm sorry to interrupt, but just

622
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:43,399
Speaker 1: just riff on ego deconstructing experience. I'm writing it down.

623
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 1: I love that. So what do you mean by that?

624
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 1: Just because is that because you got your sense of

625
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 1: self and self worth through being, you know, having this

626
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,800
Speaker 1: immense brain where you're constantly learning, and then all of

627
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 1: a sudden, you or.

628
00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:59,399
Speaker 2: You you are, how smart you are, you are, how

629
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 2: productive you are, you are your outcomes, you are your

630
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 2: work ethic period. Outside of my role professionally, I had

631
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 2: no definition for who I was, nor did that was

632
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 2: I interested in developing one. So it was it was hot.

633
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 2: It was hard for me to be me. I didn't

634
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 2: realize it at the time. I thought I was living

635
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,799
Speaker 2: my best life, but other people around me had quite

636
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:30,799
Speaker 2: a different experience, which probably still persists today. But in

637
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 2: everything that I thought I was and everything that I

638
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 2: thought made me valuable, being in question and being threatened,

639
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,319
Speaker 2: I kind of went into a panic. And then I

640
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:47,839
Speaker 2: moved to the UK June two thousand and two, and

641
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 2: I kind of started up again with my rigid behaviors

642
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,839
Speaker 2: and my lectures about work ethic. And this person who

643
00:37:56,000 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 2: I was working with, the client, Helen, who was kind

644
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 2: of a mentor to me, we have switched on, Lady brilliant.

645
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 2: She's like, you know, you're kind of getting in the

646
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:11,800
Speaker 2: way here and the way you engage in work doesn't

647
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 2: work for you, and it doesn't work for anyone else.

648
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 2: At one point we were on the phone and we

649
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 2: were getting it kind of into an argument a little bit,

650
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:24,800
Speaker 2: which I was on the losing end of, and she said, Okay,

651
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 2: this company you're consulting for, we've been a successful business

652
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 2: longer than you've been a nation. Do you think we

653
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,839
Speaker 2: were clueless until you basically rocked up, Like we didn't

654
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 2: have any of the thoughts that you're having right now.

655
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 2: And she's like, if you would have a little bit

656
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 2: more fun in your work and connect on more of

657
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 2: a deeper emotional level, you would be more effective without

658
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 2: being this way. But you know what else would happen

659
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:55,839
Speaker 2: other people around you would be a little bit more

660
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 2: effective as well. And I was like, okay, you know,

661
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:04,840
Speaker 2: I was so physically worn out that you know, like

662
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 2: when you're sometimes when you're really exhausted, your plane's delayed

663
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 2: and you don't sleep as much, which is catastrophic for

664
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 2: cognitive performers, but you get up the next morning to

665
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 2: do a presentation and you're so much better because you

666
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 2: just can't be asked about self editing and you're just

667
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,320
Speaker 2: like putting it out there. I was like that for

668
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 2: months at a time, so I just started experimenting with

669
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,319
Speaker 2: a new way of being, and I also kind of

670
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 2: had the thought, wow, you know what, I've kind of

671
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 2: really poisoned my body living down there. I wonder how

672
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 2: long into adulthood I'm going to live? What? You know,

673
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 2: I didn't say to myself, Well, if I was going

674
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 2: to die tomorrow, what would I do today? How would

675
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 2: I live my life? That's stupid. I don't know if

676
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 2: I would shower or brush my teeth. Kind of not

677
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 2: a great strategy for life. But what if I was

678
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,399
Speaker 2: going to die six months from now? What if six

679
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,759
Speaker 2: months from now I've got all these toxins in my

680
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:03,320
Speaker 2: body and it gets really bad. I'm going to approach

681
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 2: my work and only do what it is that I

682
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 2: absolutely love to do, and serve people that I love

683
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:16,840
Speaker 2: working with and for, and I construct my front it.

684
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 1: I love that. I love that lesson and I love

685
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:24,800
Speaker 1: that kind of Thank God for Helen as well. Thanks Helen.

686
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,720
Speaker 1: Was that her name? The English lady Helen?

687
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:30,720
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna I'm not going to say her surname,

688
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 2: just you know, to respect her.

689
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:36,839
Speaker 1: We'll just go with Helen. Yeah, how long this is,

690
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 1: you know, just a curiosity for me, so you're in

691
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:47,239
Speaker 1: the post nine to eleven mayhem and dust and toxicity,

692
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 1: and your brain felt your brain didn't work and you

693
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,319
Speaker 1: felt like a rusty blade going through it, et cetera.

694
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 1: How long before you felt or it worked like, what

695
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:00,720
Speaker 1: was the How long did that last before you felt

696
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 1: like you were somewhat back to normal?

697
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 2: Years? Really years? That was a struggle. And when I

698
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:11,879
Speaker 2: say I made this decision, I fluctuated in and out

699
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:15,439
Speaker 2: of it. So every day was a battle because those

700
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 2: old patterns would start to reemerge. My neuroticism became intense

701
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 2: because I felt how ineffective I was. I felt how

702
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 2: I wasn't performing, My brain wasn't doing what I needed

703
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 2: to do it to do to the same level it

704
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 2: was before that. But as I as I started looking

705
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 2: at people who had kind of the same belief systems

706
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 2: as I did, something really interesting happened. And Paul Taylor

707
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 2: was part of this. This was all around God. This

708
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 2: was going back into two thousand and eight where I

709
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 2: was on a circuit and I was looking at all

710
00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:01,280
Speaker 2: these big self help speakers. They were they were rigid,

711
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 2: they were judgmental, and they didn't seem very happy on

712
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:10,959
Speaker 2: the surface. They seemed great, but they weren't the same

713
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 2: person off stage that they were on stage. And then,

714
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 2: you know, mutual friend of all is Richard Boyd rings

715
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 2: me and at this point I'm working in education with

716
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 2: a company and he goes, oh, that I really wanted

717
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 2: to get away from because I didn't. I didn't think

718
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 2: that it was a great environment for me for a

719
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:34,359
Speaker 2: lot of reasons. And Boydy calls me and says, hey,

720
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 2: I want you to come to Australia. We got tons

721
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,760
Speaker 2: of speaking tours. It's gonna be like a whole month

722
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 2: full on, you know. Then we'll go Meeting of the Minds,

723
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 2: then we'll go up to Colorado, come back to you know,

724
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 2: San Diego. So this is gonna be This is gonna

725
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 2: be at like six week endeavor. Oh and by the way,

726
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:53,840
Speaker 2: I'm not really sure if we're gonna be able to

727
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 2: pay you. It all depends how the project goes. So

728
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 2: it's like, you want me to get on a plane,

729
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 2: travel halfway around the world to work NonStop constantly, and

730
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 2: you're not even sure if you'll be able to pay

731
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 2: me for it. I was like, Okay, book me a ticket.

732
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:11,399
Speaker 1: I'm in.

733
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,359
Speaker 2: So for me, this was this sounded like a great deal.

734
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 2: I got on that plane and I started hanging out

735
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 2: with like you know, and these were my friends before,

736
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:25,240
Speaker 2: but I spent some serious time observing Ode and Boyd

737
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 2: and Taylor and you know, Michaele. We all worked very,

738
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,880
Speaker 2: very hard, but there was this deep commitment to the

739
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:38,240
Speaker 2: purpose and to one another, and there was this deep

740
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 2: enjoyment that happened. It's almost like getting into a state

741
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 2: of flow, kind of like when you're on stage or

742
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 2: when you're you're focused on writing something with no distractions

743
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 2: and you know why you're doing it. But it was

744
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 2: like that conversationally. So I thought, if I keep thinking

745
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 2: like these other people that I just left behind and

746
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 2: doing what they do, I'm going to become just like them.

747
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:08,319
Speaker 2: But if I start thinking like these people here and

748
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 2: I start engaging the behaviors they engage in and put

749
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:15,279
Speaker 2: myself in the environment they put themselves in, I'm going

750
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:18,439
Speaker 2: to be a lot more like them. And I looked

751
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:21,320
Speaker 2: at like, let's say o D for an example, who

752
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:25,839
Speaker 2: will change the energy dynamic of a room just by

753
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 2: walking in it? And everybody feels uplifted, Everybody feels like

754
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 2: they're engaged, they're having fun.

755
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:34,439
Speaker 1: And it's safe.

756
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 2: And out of all of those people who feels that

757
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 2: the most od I was like, do I want to

758
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 2: be like O D like years from now? Yeah, I

759
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 2: kind of do. So I just completely change direction. And

760
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 2: that's you know, that's what led to the formation a

761
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 2: PTA Global back then and that whole trajectory. But I

762
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 2: did live my life where I'm only going to do

763
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 2: what I would do if I only had six months

764
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 2: to live, and there are some benefits to that, and

765
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 2: then you know, there have been obviously some major drawbacks,

766
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 2: but that was my decision and that was my path.

767
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,880
Speaker 1: How do you go now disconnecting from work? Because I

768
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 1: feel like I'm probably you and I probably quite similar.

769
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 1: Some people would look at how much I work and

770
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:24,880
Speaker 1: how much I do, and perhaps quite rightly, like by

771
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 1: their standards anyway, they'd go, you're a workaholic, or you

772
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 1: work too much, or you fuck around too little or whatever.

773
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:37,759
Speaker 1: But in my defense, your honor, none of what I

774
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 1: do really feels like right now, you and I are working,

775
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:44,799
Speaker 1: you know, well, you're kind of for you, but you know,

776
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:47,800
Speaker 1: this is a podcast, we're sponsored, it's part of my job,

777
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:50,920
Speaker 1: but there's nothing about this that to me is a

778
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 1: work experience. It doesn't feel like work. It feels like

779
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:56,400
Speaker 1: I'm in the middle of a conversation I'm interested in

780
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 1: with a guy that I've known a long time and love. Right,

781
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 1: that's it. That's for me. You know, I don't feel

782
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 1: like I've had a job for the last thirty five years.

783
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 1: But what about you? What's your relationship with work? Is

784
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 1: it healthier than it's ever been or is it problematic? Oh?

785
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 2: I still want to talk about this. Wow, this is

786
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 2: something I want to talk about because I'm involved in

787
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:23,280
Speaker 2: an advanced long term coaching project or coaching curriculum going

788
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 2: through and we were just examining the work of mehist

789
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 2: Mahai with flow. I want to get to that because

790
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:31,719
Speaker 2: I think that is when you talk about, like what

791
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 2: is life about? I think flow is definitely related to

792
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 2: it in a highly important way. But you know, for me,

793
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 2: I can completely well, there's something that I talk about

794
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 2: in the sectors that I work in. And I learned

795
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:53,359
Speaker 2: this from my wife, and I call it quit every day.

796
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 2: So as a filmmaker, when she had her film company,

797
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 2: she would work eighteen hours a day. And she's formerly

798
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 2: a trained engineer, an IT engineer, so she would do,

799
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 2: like editing, she would do sound directing, like all these

800
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,960
Speaker 2: different roles that are really unique for one person to do.

801
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 2: I was like, I wonder how she can do it.

802
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 2: The writing, and it was exhausting, Like she would just

803
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 2: sit at her computer pouring sweat and she'd be there

804
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:25,920
Speaker 2: for another six hours. I'm like, that is extreme physical

805
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 2: and mental endurance. And at the end of the day though,

806
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 2: she would do something that a lot of people don't do.

807
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 2: It was almost like she was like, you know what,

808
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:38,840
Speaker 2: I quit, I quit the project, I quit my company.

809
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 2: I'm done. And she would pour self a glass of wine.

810
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 2: Now I'm not recommending wine as a coping strategy, but

811
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:46,399
Speaker 2: that worked for her, and if it works for you, great,

812
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:48,239
Speaker 2: But she would pour self a glass of wine, turn

813
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:50,920
Speaker 2: on Netflix, and in her mind she didn't have a

814
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:55,760
Speaker 2: company anymore, she didn't work anymore. She quit. The next morning,

815
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 2: she would wake up and start all over again, and

816
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 2: at the end of that day she would quit. So

817
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 2: it's like this quit every day thing, I believe is

818
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 2: very helpful because a lot of times what people do,

819
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 2: especially me, I'm a ruminator, is I'll take a day

820
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 2: off from work because I know it's important and there's

821
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 2: other things I wanted to do. But then I'll think

822
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:16,760
Speaker 2: about work. I'll think about this conversation. You're not really

823
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 2: off work, You're not really taking a mental break that's

824
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 2: going to allow you to re engage in a more

825
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 2: effective way. What are you doing? So there's this quit

826
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:27,959
Speaker 2: everyday thing that I've been getting better and better at.

827
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 2: But I can kind of unplug from work because I

828
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:36,400
Speaker 2: do love conversations. I do love people. The caveat is

829
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:39,480
Speaker 2: I have a very hard time not working if I

830
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:42,879
Speaker 2: haven't been working, if you know what I mean. Yeah,

831
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 2: going to dinner after a long day of work, where

832
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:49,720
Speaker 2: I feel like, Wow, we've accomplished something far more important

833
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 2: than I've accomplished something. That time out is so deeply enjoyable,

834
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:58,439
Speaker 2: where when I go on holiday, I get about two

835
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:01,799
Speaker 2: days before I start losing my mind because there's not

836
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 2: an achievement, there's not a striving for something. You're just

837
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 2: hanging out and it's like, Okay, today, we're doing this

838
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:09,279
Speaker 2: bus tour and then we're going to this pub and

839
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 2: it's like, ah, okay, great Tomorrow. I'll wake up at

840
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:14,280
Speaker 2: five o'clock in the morning and gouge both my eyes

841
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 2: out because I can't take any more of this shit.

842
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 1: I write and I didn't write. I did a podcast

843
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago called an Unambitious Life. I

844
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 1: think you should listen to it. Just that, just yeah,

845
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 1: it is like sometimes just to go, I mean, how

846
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:35,920
Speaker 1: many people do you know? And I know that what

847
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 1: the world? From the outside looking in, you'd say super

848
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 1: high achievers. And some of them are great, some of

849
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 1: them are happy, fulfilled, but also some of them are not.

850
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 1: Some of them are pretty sad, pretty depressed, pretty anxious,

851
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 1: pretty medicated, pretty sleepless. But from the outside looking in,

852
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:57,279
Speaker 1: they're crushing, killing, grinding and winning a life. And then

853
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 1: there are other people like one of my best you know, well,

854
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 1: my longest best mate in the world, vin Is. It's

855
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 1: not long, he's very long. He's seventy feet long, longest,

856
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:15,399
Speaker 1: but like we've been friends since we were eight nine,

857
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:19,280
Speaker 1: and you know, I went one way, vin one another.

858
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:21,400
Speaker 1: He went and did a trade, became a spark. He

859
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:24,920
Speaker 1: lives in the country and a great life and a

860
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:28,520
Speaker 1: great wife and great kids and grandkids. But in terms

861
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:30,839
Speaker 1: of the context of what we call the high water

862
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 1: mark of like he's just a dude living a life,

863
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 1: and it's a great life. But I look at him

864
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:38,400
Speaker 1: and I think he is one of the most successful

865
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 1: people that I know, maybe in the top three when

866
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:46,920
Speaker 1: I factor in he loved his career. He worked on

867
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 1: oil rigs in the middle of the bas Straight, which

868
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:54,640
Speaker 1: is the water between Victoria and Tazzy Bobby. So in

869
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:56,720
Speaker 1: the middle of the Bass Straight, working on oil rigs,

870
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 1: week on, week off. Forever, great wife, great kids, it's mentally, emotionally, spiritually, physically,

871
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:07,319
Speaker 1: financially all good. And I look at him and I go, yeah,

872
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 1: that's for me, that's a high one. I think, in

873
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:13,360
Speaker 1: many ways, much more successful than I've ever been. But

874
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 1: it's like that, how do we evaluate that? How do

875
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:19,960
Speaker 1: we like, at what point do we stop hurrying and

876
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:23,719
Speaker 1: rushing and grinding and like do we ever stop doing that?

877
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:26,879
Speaker 1: And for some people maybe we don't need to, but yeah,

878
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:29,399
Speaker 1: I wonder what the trade off is in there.

879
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:32,920
Speaker 2: Well, for me, my definition of success is if you

880
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:36,719
Speaker 2: wake up in the morning and there's something you really

881
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:39,239
Speaker 2: want to do, there's a way that you want to

882
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:42,920
Speaker 2: spend your psychic energy and live your life, and in

883
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:45,799
Speaker 2: the evening, when you're reflecting back, you did that thing.

884
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 2: You're a success. I know, for me, ambition has never

885
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 2: been a motivator. It's not like I want to become

886
00:51:53,640 --> 00:52:01,320
Speaker 2: something or achieve this thing. And you know that's people

887
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:03,359
Speaker 2: have a lot of different opinions about that, and that's

888
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 2: fine for me. It's always about creating something, it's about

889
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:11,840
Speaker 2: contributing something, and it's also about the process, the nature

890
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:16,600
Speaker 2: of the work itself. And I said, I want to

891
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:21,880
Speaker 2: talk about flow experiences. You know, you hear these things

892
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:27,759
Speaker 2: where people say things like I engage in work not

893
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:31,320
Speaker 2: because I enjoy it, but because it needs to be done,

894
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:34,799
Speaker 2: And there are things like that. But my question is

895
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:38,720
Speaker 2: if the essence of your work itself is not bringing

896
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:42,719
Speaker 2: you enjoyment, are you really doing it well? Because when

897
00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 2: you look at flow, there are certain conditions, are like

898
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 2: nine conditions and I couldn't, for the life of me

899
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 2: rattle them off the top of my head. But one,

900
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:53,439
Speaker 2: you need to be really clear on why you're doing

901
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:56,520
Speaker 2: what you're doing. It has to be personally important to

902
00:52:56,960 --> 00:53:00,360
Speaker 2: focus and concentration, and there's got to be this gotta

903
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 2: be this level of effort like people talk about grinding,

904
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 2: as if effort and enjoyment are the antitheses of one another.

905
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:14,880
Speaker 2: It's almost the measure of one another because like to

906
00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:18,839
Speaker 2: get into that flow state, you've got to have an

907
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:21,840
Speaker 2: equal balance of your skill set at the current moment

908
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,799
Speaker 2: and the challenge. So you know, if you're engaging in

909
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:28,640
Speaker 2: something that's so far beyond your skill sets, you're not

910
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:30,680
Speaker 2: gonna learn, you're not gonna grow, you're not gonna produce

911
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:33,879
Speaker 2: anything worthwhile. What you're gonna produce is a state of

912
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:38,440
Speaker 2: anxiety and frustration. And if you're not working hard enough,

913
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 2: it's not gonna be fulfilling and you're gonna be bored

914
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 2: and maybe even frustrate. So that challenge is necessary. That's hard.

915
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 2: It's hard to focus, it's hard to shut off your

916
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:54,080
Speaker 2: mobile phone, it's hard to not multitask and just focus

917
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 2: intently on the task at hand. But if you do

918
00:53:57,080 --> 00:54:01,880
Speaker 2: that and the conditions are right, within about ten fifteen minutes,

919
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:06,080
Speaker 2: you disappear. Everybody's had this, or I would imagine a

920
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 2: lot of people have had this where you're working on

921
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:11,920
Speaker 2: something that's meaningful and it's really hard work, it's not

922
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:14,919
Speaker 2: easy to do, and then you pick your head up

923
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:19,480
Speaker 2: and it's like, wait a minute, four hours went by, Yeah,

924
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 2: where did where? It's not only where did the time go?

925
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:27,719
Speaker 2: It's where did I go? And then you realize at

926
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:31,960
Speaker 2: the end of that four hours that you had this

927
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:37,479
Speaker 2: deep level of engagement and enjoyment. So if what you're

928
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:41,960
Speaker 2: working really hard on is not eliciting any joy, is

929
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 2: it really meaningful to you? Are you single mindedly focusing

930
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 2: on something or are you kind of like an octopus

931
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:52,640
Speaker 2: on rollerblades a lot of motion but no real direction

932
00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:55,920
Speaker 2: because you're not really getting down to creating something or

933
00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:59,760
Speaker 2: producing something. You're doing a lot of stuff and calling

934
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:04,400
Speaker 2: that hard work. But what's the outcome you're facilitating? I

935
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:06,920
Speaker 2: think that's an important question. I know that there are

936
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:09,600
Speaker 2: times where you know you can't do everything that you

937
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:11,879
Speaker 2: want to do, or some people are in situations where

938
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:14,280
Speaker 2: it's like, no, I mean, the purpose of my work

939
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:17,520
Speaker 2: is to feed my family. I hate my job, but

940
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:19,600
Speaker 2: you know I got people depending on me and that's

941
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:25,600
Speaker 2: my purpose and that is so understandable. But if you're

942
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:29,359
Speaker 2: that person that's saying, well, I do this, because you're

943
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 2: also probably the same type of person that's saying well,

944
00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:34,799
Speaker 2: the nature of your work is a choice. Doesn't mean

945
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:37,520
Speaker 2: it's going to change today, but it's a series of choices.

946
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:40,560
Speaker 2: What are the choices you're making that's robbing you of

947
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 2: engagement and enjoyment, because that's also robbing you have optimal

948
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 2: performance given your personal potential.

949
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:51,400
Speaker 1: When you talked to me for about sitting on the

950
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:53,600
Speaker 1: plane next to you might who is looking at watches

951
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:58,799
Speaker 1: and cars in airplane magazines, and you rebuked him in

952
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:04,000
Speaker 1: all your righteousness, how are you different from that guy?

953
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:08,560
Speaker 1: And by that, I mean I feel like you and

954
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 1: work you and your career, your your knowledge, your like

955
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:16,160
Speaker 1: it was one like that's where you got your sense

956
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:19,680
Speaker 1: of self from what you know and your skill and

957
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:23,440
Speaker 1: and you know your your job is that is there

958
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:25,799
Speaker 1: space between those things and you?

959
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:32,799
Speaker 2: Now, yeah, I think there is. I mean, I love

960
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:36,279
Speaker 2: spending time with my wife, like I'm proud of the

961
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:41,319
Speaker 2: relationship and dynamic we've built and the challenges that we

962
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:42,520
Speaker 2: navigate together.

963
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:44,240
Speaker 1: I love my mates.

964
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:47,640
Speaker 2: It just so happens that for such a long period

965
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:51,840
Speaker 2: of time, my closest mates were intertwined with my work. So,

966
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:56,040
Speaker 2: and you said something earlier, you want to talk about

967
00:56:56,040 --> 00:57:00,160
Speaker 2: success when you don't know where your work ends and

968
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:05,200
Speaker 2: where your play begins. That success and when when you

969
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:10,759
Speaker 2: are chastising someone who is a legend in front of

970
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 2: a room and can teach complicated concepts with with fun

971
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:21,480
Speaker 2: and simplicity in a way that evokes confidence in the audience.

972
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 2: And you're chastising that guy because he saw a car

973
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:28,600
Speaker 2: that he thinks is kind of cool. That's not success.

974
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:33,360
Speaker 2: That is not the mark of a of a successful life.

975
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:37,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, hi mate, I love chatting to you. You're

976
00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:41,600
Speaker 1: always fascinating and interesting and I know that. And for

977
00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:44,720
Speaker 1: those who don't know who met Bobby today for the

978
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:48,960
Speaker 1: first time, how can I connect with you? What do

979
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:50,320
Speaker 1: you what do you wanna? Where do you want to

980
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:51,640
Speaker 1: direct our listeners?

981
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:57,240
Speaker 2: You can go to Robert Capuccio dot com. I'm there. Well,

982
00:57:57,280 --> 00:58:00,000
Speaker 2: I'm not technically there, it's virtual, but yeah, you can

983
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:04,120
Speaker 2: send me a message. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm not big

984
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:07,120
Speaker 2: on social media for a lot of reasons that are

985
00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:09,960
Speaker 2: beyond the scope of this conversation, but LinkedIn is is

986
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:13,480
Speaker 2: probably the best social media platform to catch me.

987
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:15,000
Speaker 1: I thank you.

988
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:19,640
Speaker 2: Also, I do, I do, I do have a podcast,

989
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:24,200
Speaker 2: the self Help and to thank you for that dot com?

990
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:30,040
Speaker 1: All right, mate, appreciate you, love you. We'll say goodbye

991
00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:32,000
Speaker 1: fair but thanks dude.

992
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:32,880
Speaker 2: Thanks Greig