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Speaker 1: From the newsroom and news to come to.

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Speaker 2: By there.

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Speaker 3: I'm Andrew Bucklow. It's been more than five years since

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Speaker 3: Australia's most infamous serial killer, Ivan Malatt died of cancer,

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Speaker 3: but the story isn't finished. In recent weeks, momentum has

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Speaker 3: grown for a parliamentary inquiry to uncover the secrets he

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Speaker 3: took to his grave. Did the backpacker murderer act alone?

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Speaker 3: And was he responsible for far more than the seven

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Speaker 3: deaths he was convicted of. In today's episode, will revisit

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Speaker 3: his crimes here from a journalist who sat through his

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Speaker 3: trial and ask why some of Malat's own relatives still

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Speaker 3: insist he was innocent. Ivan Mulatt is a name synonymous

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Speaker 3: with evil. In the late eighties and early nineties, he

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Speaker 3: brutally murdered seven backpackers to ossies, two brutes and three Germans.

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Speaker 3: The bodies of his victims were first discovered in the

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Speaker 3: Bilanglo State Forest in New South Wales in nineteen ninety two.

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Speaker 3: Some were shot, others stabbed. Many showed signs of torture.

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Speaker 4: I think it's fair to say that give them that

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Speaker 4: we now have seven bodies recovered, and notwithstanding that we

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Speaker 4: don't know the cause of death in.

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Speaker 1: The present case that we do have a serial killer.

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Speaker 3: The hunt for the Aussie serial killer made news overseas

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Speaker 3: and caught the eye of a British fellow named Paul Onions.

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Speaker 3: Years earlier, when he was backpacking around Australia, a driver

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Speaker 3: had offered him a lift and pulled a gun on him.

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Speaker 3: Paul ran for his life and managed to escape. When

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Speaker 3: he read about the backpack of murders, he reached out

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Speaker 3: to detectives, told them his story and was shown photos

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Speaker 3: of possible suspects.

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Speaker 2: I went through all the pictures and that was the

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Speaker 2: one that gave me an initial reaction. This made me

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Speaker 2: uneasy when I looked at me, and then when I

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Speaker 2: looked Lass, I said to him, that's that's the person.

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Speaker 2: While I think I'm at that day.

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Speaker 3: It was the breakthrough police had been waiting. He's former

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Speaker 3: detective Clyde Small speaking to Channel nine.

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Speaker 4: So that gave us evidence of malat Ivan being the

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Speaker 4: offender in the Paul Onions matter, but also gave strong

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Speaker 4: suspicions of him being the backpacker killer. Once we had

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Speaker 4: Paul's evidence, we then had grounds to search Ivan's home.

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Speaker 5: The fifty year old man who's being questioned night in

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Speaker 5: Sydney about the backpacker murders. He was arrested in a

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Speaker 5: huge overnight operation in the Campbelltown area and since then

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Speaker 5: he's been charged with threatening a hitchhiker. In nineteen ninety.

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Speaker 4: When we went in and started the search and carried

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Speaker 4: out the search of the homes, were absolutely stunned by

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Speaker 4: what we found and the amount of property belonging to

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Speaker 4: the backpackers that was found in both Ivan tome. We

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Speaker 4: found them a weapon, for example, We found clothing and

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Speaker 4: other property belonging to the backpackers. There was like a

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Speaker 4: goal mine, one of a better description. But we also

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Speaker 4: found property in other homes belonging to the Malatt family,

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Speaker 4: but from the evidence we got, they had all been

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Speaker 4: given that property by Ivan.

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Speaker 3: In nineteen ninety six, Ivan Malatt was found guilty and

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Speaker 3: was handed seven consecutive life sentences without parole. But questions

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Speaker 3: have always lingered did he kill more than the seven

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Speaker 3: backpackers and was he really acting alone. Malatt died behind

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Speaker 3: bars in twenty nineteen, having never admitted to his crimes.

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Speaker 4: I'm not surprised that he couldn't offer a confession. Ivan

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Speaker 4: was a person who, even once he was arrested, still

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Speaker 4: thought that he was in charge. He was the boss,

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Speaker 4: and he was controlling things, and he saw himself as

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Speaker 4: being a person who I don't have to confess anything here.

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Speaker 4: As long as I don't confess, I'm still in charge.

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Speaker 4: Because they want me, I don't want them.

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Speaker 3: Sadonimartin is one ofnews dot com dot Us a senior reporter.

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Speaker 3: She covered Ivan Malatt's trial back in nineteen ninety six.

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Speaker 3: She joins me, now, that must have been a pretty

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Speaker 3: harrowing trial to sit through. What are your memories from it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it sure was.

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Speaker 6: On the trial, it was actually held in the old

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Speaker 6: Banco Court in Sydney, which is like a really old,

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Speaker 6: well intomate courtroom. The media section was really close to

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Speaker 6: all the witnesses, so it felt like you were right

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Speaker 6: in the thick of it, much more so than in

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Speaker 6: a modern courtroom. Largely, what I remember is the evidence

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Speaker 6: was just so harrowing, particularly forensic evidence. When we heard

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Speaker 6: all the details of the injuries. They showed pictures of

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Speaker 6: the stab wounds, the gunshot wounds, you know, the slashing

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Speaker 6: of vertebrates, and then you've got these experts explaining how

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Speaker 6: some of these people were actually alive and paralyzed watching

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Speaker 6: while their friend was being stabbed to death or shot.

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Speaker 6: It was next level. And then we had Malatt sitting

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Speaker 6: there day in day out while all this evidence is

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Speaker 6: being heard.

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Speaker 1: It was just surreal.

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Speaker 6: He's kind of just looking straight ahead, listening, no sign

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Speaker 6: of emotion. But then you had the victims who were

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Speaker 6: literally their broken parents listening to all the horrible evidence,

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Speaker 6: lawyers kind of walking through every step of their agony,

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Speaker 6: so it actually felt like a horror movie sometimes.

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Speaker 3: Is there one moment in particular that you will never

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Speaker 3: ever forget from that trial?

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Speaker 6: Yes, there's probably a couple, though one definitely would be

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Speaker 6: when Paul Onions, the person who survived standing there and

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Speaker 6: actually pointing to Malatt saying that, you know, answering the

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Speaker 6: question was there someone who abducted him in the courtroom.

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Speaker 1: That was pretty chilling.

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Speaker 6: Another one was also when Malatt's own barrister basically said

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Speaker 6: made this big statement saying, even blind Freddy knows someone

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Speaker 6: in the Malatt family is responsible, which that was his defense,

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Speaker 6: of course, that these medicals were committed by one of

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Speaker 6: Ivan Malat's brothers, even though Ivan insisted all along that

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Speaker 6: his whole family had nothing to do with it, wasn't responsible.

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Speaker 1: So it was this contradiction even from way back then.

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Speaker 6: You know, when this lawyer jumping up saying that, it

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Speaker 6: was like, well, gosh, it's one of you that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that was kind of chilling. Help everyone looking around

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Speaker 1: at each other, be Wow.

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Speaker 3: Ivan comes from a really big family, doesn't he. I

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Speaker 3: think he's like one of fourteen or something like that.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, lots of brothers and sisters, and a lot of

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Speaker 6: them gave evidence too, So yeah, the family's very complicated.

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Speaker 3: Well, no members of Ivan Malatt's family have ever been

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Speaker 3: publicly named a suspects by the police. All of his

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Speaker 3: brothers deny any involvement in his crimes, and none of

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Speaker 3: them have ever been charged in relation to the deaths sid.

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Speaker 3: You mentioned a little bit about this before. Tell us

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Speaker 3: what was Ivan Malatt like in the courtroom during the trial.

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Speaker 6: So, look, this this case went for sixteen weeks and

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Speaker 6: by far the longest trial I've ever sat through. It's therefore,

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Speaker 6: you know, a defendant sitting there. But really he just

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Speaker 6: had the same expression for the whole time. He didn't react,

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Speaker 6: he didn't kind of shake his head, you know, off

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Speaker 6: and you'll see, you know, a defendant, especially one who

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Speaker 6: is claiming their innocence, which is most in this position,

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Speaker 6: not even really looking around.

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Speaker 1: Not seeing other people's reactions. He just didn't really show

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Speaker 1: any emotion.

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Speaker 6: And then there was this one moment that really kind

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Speaker 6: of stuck with me, kept me awake at nights.

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Speaker 1: I'll admit.

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Speaker 6: It was a day where you know, as you can imagine,

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Speaker 6: some of the evidence could get pretty dry as well,

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Speaker 6: lots of technical evidence that you know, it was very important,

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Speaker 6: but hard to kind of follow or didn't you know,

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Speaker 6: I didn't really feel I was going to be the

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Speaker 6: news of the day. And I found myself just kind

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Speaker 6: of staring at him, mind wandering, thinking what's he thinking?

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Speaker 3: What?

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Speaker 6: He's just sitting there emotionless through this whole trial, And

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Speaker 6: I think I must have just been staring for that

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Speaker 6: bit too long, and he kind of turned and met

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Speaker 6: my stare and we locked eyes. I'm sure it was

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Speaker 6: only for a few seconds, but it felt like a minute,

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Speaker 6: and I just felt this come over me and thought

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Speaker 6: I've got to look away and put my head back

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Speaker 6: down to my notepad.

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Speaker 1: But I definitely had dreams about that for a long time.

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Speaker 3: I mean you were in the courtroom, you heard all

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Speaker 3: the evidence, that horrific evidence. What are your thoughts on

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Speaker 3: these theories that persist that my Latt didn't act alone

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Speaker 3: to kill those seven backpackers.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, look, the court ruled that he was acting alone,

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Speaker 6: but there was definitely a lot of evidence of experts

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Speaker 6: thinking there was more than one, so it was hard

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Speaker 6: not to be swayed by that evidence. One in particular,

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Speaker 6: I'm a forensic expert, talked about how there were cartridge

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Speaker 6: cases found the bodies of the two German backpackers, but

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Speaker 6: there were two different brands of ammunition fired from two

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Speaker 6: different guns, and he talked about how that suggested that

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Speaker 6: there were two people, two guns, two different boxes of ammunition,

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Speaker 6: which made sense to him, even though he obviously couldn't

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Speaker 6: didn't prove anything. He also noted that the two British

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Speaker 6: girls were killed in very different ways. One was shot

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Speaker 6: ten times in the head and then the other one

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Speaker 6: at the same time scene was repeatedly stabbed. And then

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Speaker 6: you had a highly respected profiler who also talked a

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Speaker 6: lot about the two killer theory.

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Speaker 1: He said that when you.

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Speaker 6: Looked at Malatt, he's kind of cold, distant person by

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Speaker 6: all accounts, who might have fired the shots into the head,

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Speaker 6: more deliberate kind of action. And then there was the

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Speaker 6: others where there was other in some of them murder

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Speaker 6: scenes where there's the impression of being more impulsive and sadistic,

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Speaker 6: like for example, the stab wounds down the spine, and

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Speaker 6: there was evidence that some of those stab wounds were

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Speaker 6: in the exact right spot where they knew that that

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Speaker 6: would paralyze.

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Speaker 1: Somebody but keep them alive and conscious.

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Speaker 6: So he felt like there was this two waves of

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Speaker 6: a different kind of you know, almost motive if you like,

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Speaker 6: in satisfaction taken from the killings. So all that evidence

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Speaker 6: and I guess when you add the defense trying to say, oh,

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Speaker 6: someone else in the family, it was hard not to

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Speaker 6: always look at other brothers.

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Speaker 1: And think, oh, do you know, were you there?

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Speaker 6: You know, so hard for me to totally rule out

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Speaker 6: of my mind for sure.

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Speaker 3: Sid actually caught up with one of Ivan Malatt's nephews recently.

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Speaker 3: She'll tell us what he had to say about his

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Speaker 3: infamous uncle in just a moment. Welcome back, I am

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Speaker 3: chatting to news dot com dot use Acid Martin Seed.

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Speaker 3: Over the years, Ivan Malatt's been linked to a number

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Speaker 3: of unsolved cases. Do you believe it was likely that

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Speaker 3: Malatt was responsible for more than the seven murders he

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Speaker 3: was convicted of.

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Speaker 5: Uh.

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Speaker 6: Look well, Clive Smaller, lead investigator, He's been on the

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Speaker 6: record a lot saying that he was convinced that Malatt

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Speaker 6: committed at least one other murder because of the worms

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Speaker 6: and whatnot. I'm a bit of an evidence based thinker,

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Speaker 6: So until I hear the actual evidence linking each of

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Speaker 6: these unsolved.

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Speaker 1: Murders, I'm kind of have an open mind.

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Speaker 6: I find it hard to think that way unless I

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Speaker 6: see something to send me that way, But definitely an

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Speaker 6: open mind about it.

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Speaker 3: In the past couple of weeks, a new South Wales

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Speaker 3: politician named Jeremy Buckingham has made news he's called for

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Speaker 3: an inquiry. Here he is speaking to Premier Chris Mins

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Speaker 3: in Senate estimates. Will your government support the calls from

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Speaker 3: victims families through parliamentary inquiry into the crimes of Ivan

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Speaker 3: Malat and his associates.

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Speaker 4: I wouldn't rule it out.

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Speaker 6: I think that that may be the necessary next step.

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Speaker 3: See can you just explain what a family's and campaign

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Speaker 3: is hoping to achieve if this parliamentary inquiry eventuates.

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Speaker 6: I think families just want answers. You know, there's nothing

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Speaker 6: worse than limbo not knowing what happened to a loved one.

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Speaker 6: So if there's evidence, I think they just want it

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Speaker 6: to be out there. And they believe that politicians have

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Speaker 6: a whole lot more luck of getting access to some

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Speaker 6: of these documents, you know, maybe whether it's work records

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Speaker 6: so and parliamentary powers mean that they can, you know,

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Speaker 6: bring his information to the forefront. So I think they're

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Speaker 6: just hoping to finances one way or the other. You know,

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Speaker 6: no one wants to live in limbo and be able

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Speaker 6: to mourn and get on with their life and lay

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Speaker 6: their love ones to rest.

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Speaker 3: When you say answers, what exactly are they looking for

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Speaker 3: answers too? Because this is the family of the seven backpackers,

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Speaker 3: or is this other potential murders that he may have committed.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think a bit of everything.

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Speaker 6: I think the other potential murders, and I think for

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Speaker 6: the families also.

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Speaker 1: I mean I can't speak.

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Speaker 6: For them, but you would want to know how far

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Speaker 6: and wide this is just for your own peace of mind.

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Speaker 6: I mean, I think for the families of people that

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Speaker 6: are still don't know what happened to their families and

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Speaker 6: may never know. That's just living torture. So I think

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Speaker 6: around as a society as well, we feel the same.

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Speaker 3: Well, let's hope it happens. See, you had this incredible

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Speaker 3: story on news dot com dot au the other day.

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Speaker 3: You actually spoke to one of Ivan Malatt's relatives about

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Speaker 3: this potential inquiry and these claims that he may have

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Speaker 3: killed a number of other people. Tell us who that

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Speaker 3: was and what they had to say.

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Speaker 6: So that was alistair shipsy. I've met Elsa a few

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Speaker 6: times over the years. The first time I think he

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Speaker 6: actually reached out when I'd written a story about Ivan

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Speaker 6: Malatt and he was angry that I was being part

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Speaker 6: of the conspiracy and trying to frame his uncle and

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Speaker 6: you know, keep these myths perpetuated. And I told him

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Speaker 6: how I'd sat through the whole trial and if he

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Speaker 6: had evidence to show otherwise, to show me. And I

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Speaker 6: went to his house and he literally had rooms full

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Speaker 6: of court documents, bundles and bundles of paper. So for

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Speaker 6: years he's been literally going through all the court papers,

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Speaker 6: checking eye witness accounts. Even Chase Mini detective himself, chasing

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Speaker 6: up leads, talking to people. So when this kind of

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Speaker 6: inquiry I came up, I thought, okay, interesting to see

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Speaker 6: what he thinks about this. He's absolutely convinced that his

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Speaker 6: uncle was framed. He thinks that they wanted the world

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Speaker 6: to not have any fears about coming to Sydney for

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Speaker 6: the Sydney Olympics, so they literally framed his uncle so

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Speaker 6: that the country would appear safe. And he was still

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Speaker 6: visiting him right up till he died of cancer. And

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Speaker 6: then I've also met with Malatt's brother Bill and sister Carol,

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Speaker 6: who would be horrified at the way.

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Speaker 1: I'm pronouncing the name.

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Speaker 6: Mind you, it's Millet, but they say everyone just ignores

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Speaker 6: that fact. But they would visit him in jail and

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Speaker 6: even on his deathbed. Carol, he's a very religious lady,

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Speaker 6: and asking point blank if he needed a priest, whether

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Speaker 6: he had anything to confess, and he said he didn't,

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Speaker 6: and she still believes him. So the family, a lot

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Speaker 6: of the family members are still very very staunch and

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Speaker 6: convinced that this is all a set up. So I figured,

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Speaker 6: you know, they deserve their point of view being told

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Speaker 6: whether we believe that or otherwise everyone's entitled to, you know,

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Speaker 6: have their side of something to fix them.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, it's an incredible story. If anyone wants to read

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Speaker 3: at go to news dot com. A dot au sid

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Speaker 3: thanks so much for coming on the.

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Speaker 1: Podcast, Pleasure, Thanks so much.

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Speaker 3: That's it for today's episode. We'll be taking a break

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Speaker 3: for a couple of weeks now as I'm about to

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Speaker 3: go on leave, but I look forward to chatting to

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Speaker 3: you when I return.

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Speaker 6: Follow or subscribe to from the Newsroom wherever you get

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Speaker 6: your podcasts.