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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Fitzi and Whipper podcast.

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Speaker 2: We're about to speak to Ian Robertson's about to call in.

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Speaker 2: But this debate that I suppose the only silver lining

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Speaker 2: that we have in this debate is that we are

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Speaker 2: talking about it again. But unfortunately we have been set

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Speaker 2: back again when we found out yesterday that seven Manly

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Speaker 2: Sea Eagles players are refusing to wear the Pride jersey

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Speaker 2: on Thursday night.

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Speaker 3: MDG just on that Fits. There was reports this morning

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Speaker 3: that was now more than seven players.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, a couple of extra players are considering it. Mainly

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Speaker 4: named their team last night and it is just the seven,

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Speaker 4: so you don't imagine it would change the story this

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Speaker 4: morning though, is that a couple of players were given

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Speaker 4: the opportunity to make their first grade debut, but they

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Speaker 4: opted against playing. So they weren't necessarily dropped, they just

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Speaker 4: chose not to play.

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Speaker 3: I think what's interesting too, Fits, is that it's not

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Speaker 3: a reflection of society. I see this as a religious thing,

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Speaker 3: and it's a religious element, and it's not you and

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Speaker 3: I because we don't follow a faith to that cord

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Speaker 3: and that line. So I don't think this represents community,

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Speaker 3: and I think that's important to point out.

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Speaker 2: But there's a very big representation of religion in Australia.

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Speaker 1: Yes there is we need.

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Speaker 3: To get past, but it's not every religious following that

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Speaker 3: has an issue.

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Speaker 5: Jersey the supporters could buy has sold out with the

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Speaker 5: Pride colors on it exactly well reflex on society wanting to.

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Speaker 2: Get mainly called a press conference yesterday, this is what

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Speaker 2: coach has had to say.

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Speaker 1: The intent of the rainbow color application of.

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Speaker 3: Our jersey was to represent a diversity and inclusion.

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Speaker 1: Sadly, the execution of what.

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Speaker 4: Was intended to be an extremely important.

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Speaker 1: And poe initiative. What's Paul.

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Speaker 4: We wish to sincerely apologize the mistakes we have made.

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Speaker 2: One man who played two hundred and thirteen first grade

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Speaker 2: games for Manly, he represented New South Wales, he represented Australia.

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Speaker 2: One of the most courageous not just on the pitch

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Speaker 2: but off the pitch as well, is Ian Roberts and

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Speaker 2: he joins us. Now, thanks for coming on the show, Buddy.

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Speaker 6: Good morning folks. How is everyone well?

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Speaker 3: Good mate, We appreciate your time. Firstly, what did you

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Speaker 3: think of Das's press conference yesterday? There was lots of

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Speaker 3: apologies happening.

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Speaker 6: Absolutely, I think it was wonderful that there's and data.

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Speaker 6: Chary Evans and the turn got up and you know,

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Speaker 6: admitted that there was a breakdown in communication and they acknowledge,

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Speaker 6: you know that they probably the club probably wouldn't move

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Speaker 6: forward like that again, trying to organize a pride rouse.

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Speaker 6: You know, I think I think that you know, it

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Speaker 6: needs to be respected. And I just want to also say, Mate,

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Speaker 6: this for the seventh player sitting out, they shouldn't be bilified.

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Speaker 6: You know, it's their religious right or cultural or whatever

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Speaker 6: reason reasoning for it. But I did say yesterday, I

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Speaker 6: want to be clear now. I just say yesterday that

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Speaker 6: I absolutely respect that it's their decision to make this

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Speaker 6: to stand out. I also want to say that I

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Speaker 6: know I'm not saying I respect that decision, but I

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Speaker 6: absolutely respect it's their decision to step down.

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Speaker 2: Mate, you announced to the world in nineteen ninety five.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we talk about progression, right, We're in twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty two now, and you think that progression is getting better,

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Speaker 2: but then you see something like this happen with seven

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Speaker 2: players not playing. I mean, you you announced to the

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Speaker 2: world that you were going in ninety ninety five. I

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Speaker 2: can only imagine back then how hard it was. How

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Speaker 2: long were you grappling with that decision to come out

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Speaker 2: and tell everybody?

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Speaker 6: You know, since I was like a teenager, I mean,

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Speaker 6: I mean, I could never remember not being in gay

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Speaker 6: and I would say that's true most experiences for the

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Speaker 6: LGB t iq A plus community. You know, it was

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Speaker 6: only at Manley that I felt safe enough to do that.

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Speaker 6: I mean, when I was playing for South, I didn't

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Speaker 6: feel like I was in a safe enough environment to

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Speaker 6: be honest at open Manly, I did, you know, which

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Speaker 6: is a wonderful reflection on that. From Manley, I went

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Speaker 6: to the Cowboys and you know, like, let's think about this.

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Speaker 6: In nine ninety seven I played the Cowboys. They made

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Speaker 6: me captain of the club. Was a game man in

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Speaker 6: a professional team sport. Progressively, ROBA League was a step

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Speaker 6: ahead of the game. But I can tell you mate,

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Speaker 6: we've fallen away a bit, you know. And then that's

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Speaker 6: putting it mildly.

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Speaker 3: You know what's interesting? I mean, and this is all

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Speaker 3: I assume you're extremely frustrated about. Yes, we're having the

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Speaker 3: conversation now, which is healthy, right, and we've hit this

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Speaker 3: point It's just a shame we had to stumble our

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Speaker 3: way to this point because you know, when you talk

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Speaker 3: about the adoption of a pride round or the recognition

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Speaker 3: of diversity, there was a great opportunity here, and you

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Speaker 3: knew about this round and this inclusion a long time ago.

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Speaker 3: And really they should have had you down at the

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Speaker 3: club speaking with the players and not them finding out

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Speaker 3: so late in the game.

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Speaker 6: There's organizations. I'm an un patriot organization called Pride in Sport.

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Speaker 6: I'm also ambassador of another organization called Proud to Play,

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Speaker 6: who actually made what they do is they actually facilitate

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Speaker 6: pride rounds. The club obviously weren't aware of those those

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Speaker 6: types of organizations. You know, they'reizations out there who do

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Speaker 6: this stuff. Yeah, but you know, we have to move

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Speaker 6: forward from here. Yes, they stuffed it up and it

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Speaker 6: could have been done better, you know, but I would

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Speaker 6: also say, guys, you know folks that you know it

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Speaker 6: doesn't end after Thursday night games. This is this is

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Speaker 6: now like in the mindset, now like there are going

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Speaker 6: to be pride rounds. I mean, this is now going

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Speaker 6: to effect the culture of rugby lea, the culture of

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Speaker 6: professional sports. How do we move forward. You know, I

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Speaker 6: think I got to be honest, you know, i'd last

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Speaker 6: I havn't had twenty four hours to think about this.

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Speaker 6: Now this like this now affects all the sponsors involved,

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Speaker 6: all the sponsors of the club. They have to look

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Speaker 6: at this all for those seven players who have stood down,

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Speaker 6: you know, their personal apparel sponsors and now have to

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Speaker 6: reconsider how this affects them. Is this good enough? You know,

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Speaker 6: in twenty twenty two, is it okay to shun a

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Speaker 6: whole community for religious or cultural you know? And first like,

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Speaker 6: but you guys, I can involve this because you know,

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Speaker 6: I still think people are missing it. The people hardest

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Speaker 6: hit here. There's people dealing with their sexuality and the

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Speaker 6: sexual identity issues out in the suburbs who haven't been

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Speaker 6: aut to be open and before. Right, you know, they're

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Speaker 6: now being told that they are not potentially not welcome

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Speaker 6: at certain clubs.

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Speaker 2: You've got emotional talking about that yesterday. And because there's

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Speaker 2: still young men and women out there that are taking

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Speaker 2: their lives.

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Speaker 6: It's you know, I don't want to start like reciting

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Speaker 6: all those terrible statistics and like the l g B

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Speaker 6: T i q A plus community eleven times more likely

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Speaker 6: to take their own lives because of suicide. Like those

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Speaker 6: types of things fright and that, you know, we need

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Speaker 6: today's content the catastrophic consequences potential consequences from the situations

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Speaker 6: of what we're talking about right now. Like our Pride

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Speaker 6: round is about inclusion. It's about celebrating people. It's about

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Speaker 6: letting people know that they're worthy and that they are welcome,

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Speaker 6: that they are part of this the sporting community. You

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Speaker 6: are welcome here at our club. That's what a Pride

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Speaker 6: round is. It isn't about exceptional being exceptional in some

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Speaker 6: way or demanding like special rights. It's about total equality.

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Speaker 6: It's kind of weird, but I still think people think

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Speaker 6: after the after marriage equality, that was the end of it,

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Speaker 6: Like we we dealt with this program with this problem,

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Speaker 6: and that's not the end of it, you know, like

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Speaker 6: and ring like one of the I think that they

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Speaker 6: told it about seventy five percent for the yes. But

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Speaker 6: so this is and then the other thing is this

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Speaker 6: whole reaction is as much as you know, I'm a

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Speaker 6: fifty seven year old gay guy, and so this is

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Speaker 6: not an unfamiliar story. I was expecting pushback month like

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Speaker 6: a month ago, and I was personally initially approached about

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Speaker 6: this Pride round. I was like, oh God, there's going

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Speaker 6: to be some pushback. I've got to be honest, I

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Speaker 6: was quite surprised it took so long for the pushback. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 6: I mean so we still have a long way to go.

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Speaker 6: I'm telling you there's still so much improvement. This doesn't end,

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Speaker 6: This doesn't end on Thursday night after the game.

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Speaker 1: Well, how do we get around religion then?

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Speaker 2: Because that that this will happen forever. Ian, this is

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Speaker 2: the thing, and we have a large amount, we have

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Speaker 2: a huge amount of players that are in there that

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Speaker 2: religion prevents us. We want to we want to get

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Speaker 2: the message out to the next generation that it's okay

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Speaker 2: to come out and if you feel like this, that

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Speaker 2: you can talk. So how do we get around the

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Speaker 2: religious element because it will be there forever Ian?

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Speaker 6: Maybe it's a sixty four million dollar question right there.

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Speaker 6: I mean, you know that there is you know there's

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Speaker 6: there's a diversity and inclusion policy in every NRL contract.

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Speaker 6: You know that needs to be that that needs to

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Speaker 6: be focused on here too. I totally agree with you.

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Speaker 6: Maybe you know it's always it's always going to be

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Speaker 6: an obstacle. There's always going to be pushed back.

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Speaker 1: I think.

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Speaker 3: I think one thing to point out though, is there's

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Speaker 3: a difference between the religion and the religion that's followed

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Speaker 3: by some of the players, and there's the club and

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Speaker 3: the policy and the culture that they one in place.

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Speaker 3: So I would like to think that the clubs are

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Speaker 3: strong enough to put the hand up and say, yes,

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Speaker 3: we have players that follow a faith and that's what

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Speaker 3: their faith dictates. But as a club and as an organization,

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Speaker 3: we say you're welcome. Because I would hope to think

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Speaker 3: I would hope to think the clubs could separate it

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Speaker 3: and say, well, that's a policy and that's a faith

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Speaker 3: that individual players will follow. We can't control that, and

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Speaker 3: they have the right to do that. But as a

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Speaker 3: club we say everybody is welcome when we celebrate diversity.

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Speaker 3: I think that's where the line needs to be made.

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Speaker 3: The clubs need to put their hand up and say

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Speaker 3: we're here.

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Speaker 6: I absolutely agree. I absolutely agree. It's a conversation that's

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Speaker 6: going to be ongoing and we need to have.

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Speaker 2: Mate, you carry a lot of weight. You carry a

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Speaker 2: lot of weight, and you are such a courageous man.

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Speaker 2: You're going to be there Thursday night. How much does

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Speaker 2: that mean to you to walk out under that oval?

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Speaker 6: Wonderful man, It's just a wonderful experience. It's a wonderful

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Speaker 6: first for the regular community. And we can't let this

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Speaker 6: take away everything in the Pride Round Originally, let's not

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Speaker 6: forget guys. Originally it was a women's round, and then

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Speaker 6: they added the Pride Round because they wanted to diversify

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Speaker 6: and be more inclusive. Like that, these guys are also

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Speaker 6: stepping away from the women's round, don't. I don't want

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Speaker 6: to throw any more fuel on the pipe. I'm just

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Speaker 6: saying that there were so many consequences and outcomes from this. Yeah,

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Speaker 6: twenty four hours in the track, but I'm seeing it

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Speaker 6: a little bit different as well.

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Speaker 2: No, thank you, mate, appreciate your time, mate, enjoy your

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Speaker 2: night on Thursday night, and thanks for coming on the

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Speaker 2: show in.

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Speaker 6: Pleasure guys to take care, Thank yous.

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Speaker 2: I just can't get over her courageously in Roberts's. And

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Speaker 2: thank you very much for coming on the char You.

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Speaker 1: Know what I wanted to You could talk to him forever,

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Speaker 1: couldn't you? Figure? Oh you could?

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Speaker 3: I wanted to ask him what advice he would give

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Speaker 3: somebody playing right now that was gay and hadn't come

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Speaker 3: out and told the world. And you know, it's even

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Speaker 3: at the point we were talking about this the other

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Speaker 3: day there was a story about somebody coming out and

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Speaker 3: saying I'm gay, And I thought, are we still having

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Speaker 3: to come out? But this is the thing, Like, shouldn't

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Speaker 3: it just be I said so and so now?

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Speaker 2: But see, he would say that there'd be so many

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Speaker 2: young men that would be gay or bisexual now and

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Speaker 2: that are still scared in twenty twenty.

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Speaker 1: Two because of their professions to do it.

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Speaker 3: I mean, in the AFL, there's never been anybody that's

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Speaker 3: put their hand up no and spoken openly about it.

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Speaker 2: Sarah's given us a call from Penrith. What did you

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Speaker 2: want to say, Sarah.

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Speaker 7: I just want to say that I feel like the

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Speaker 7: Manly Club went about it the wrong way. I feel

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Speaker 7: like they should have sat down properly with the players and,

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Speaker 7: as he said, got other professionals involved to explain what

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Speaker 7: it's about and why they're doing it. I feel like

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Speaker 7: it was a little bit of a marketing employee to

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Speaker 7: just throw that in last minute.

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Speaker 1: I agree.

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Speaker 2: It's in the paper today that this round was talked

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Speaker 2: about for the past year at the club. But the

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Speaker 2: players that are involved, and this is where you do

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Speaker 2: have to feel sorry for them. They weren't informed about it, No,

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Speaker 2: until they read the Daily Telegraph during the week. They

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Speaker 2: found out through the paper.

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Speaker 5: And the division this will cause between them as teammates.

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Speaker 1: Agreed, that's fair.

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Speaker 3: That's why there were so many apologies yesterday too. There's

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Speaker 3: in the press conference, but also Sarah, not only is

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Speaker 3: it the women's round, it's got you for life. Gus

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Speaker 3: Waller and the great work that he does on mental health.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's the aspect of that celebrated this round

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Speaker 3: as well to raise awareness.

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Speaker 1: Taken away, I couldn't have got the timing worse.

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Speaker 2: Taken away, like it's crazy our nightmare thirteen twenty fourteen.

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Speaker 2: Get involved, George from winsor what do you want to say?

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Speaker 1: George?

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Speaker 8: Hi, guys nice that you're sort of like looking at

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Speaker 8: the whole picture of things and getting different perspectives. I'm

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Speaker 8: actually from the Ungay community myself. I lost my whole

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Speaker 8: family fifteen years ago when I came out, but just

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Speaker 8: really appreciative of like the football clubs and stuff in

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Speaker 8: the AFL as well that through the Pride Games to

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Speaker 8: show that there is support out there for us and

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Speaker 8: there's always somewhere that we can go and get help

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Speaker 8: if we feel that like life's crushing around it.

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Speaker 3: Interesting, George, that Ian was saying, how if this was

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Speaker 3: handled correctly, there would have been the right organizations that

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Speaker 3: you talk about that could have come in and given

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Speaker 3: a greater view and some further education on the topic,

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Speaker 3: instead of being handled more as a surprise. And by

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Speaker 3: the way, we're wearing these on the.

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Speaker 8: Weekend, Yeah, because it doesn't give people time to have

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Speaker 8: a think about it and realize actually what a great

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Speaker 8: thing it is to have it out.

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Speaker 2: Learned from George as a member of the gay community.

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Speaker 2: This was an interesting one that I got from a

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Speaker 2: gay man on Twitter yesterday who replied to me, he said,

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Speaker 2: you talk about inclusion and this was amazing for him

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Speaker 2: to think about this, But he said, I actually feel

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Speaker 2: for those players because if you're talking inclusion, you've got

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Speaker 2: a talk inclusion of their beliefs and how they feel.

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Speaker 1: Is there an element of that, George, that you feel

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Speaker 1: with their religion.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, because they in a way they're now getting ostracized

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Speaker 8: like the gay community used to many years ago and

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Speaker 8: still does to a point today.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that's the thing.

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Speaker 3: If the players, the players aren't they don't have an

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Speaker 3: issue with the gay community. And that's their stance. It's

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Speaker 3: their faith, it's their strict faith, is what they're following.

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Speaker 5: So one of them have spoken. Thing, So everyone is

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Speaker 5: making grand assumptions on how they've come to their decision,

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Speaker 5: and they've named it's you know.

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Speaker 2: Well, Maddie, we're about to go to news now, but

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Speaker 2: there is there are I mean we're talking whispers now

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Speaker 2: and Matt, I don't know if you can tell us,

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Speaker 2: but the players that have come in for the seventh players,

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Speaker 2: there may be players in that new seven that might say, well,

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Speaker 2: we don't want to play either.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's more players who were asked to be part

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Speaker 4: of the squad and replace the seven who first given

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Speaker 4: the opportunity to make their first grade debut. And for

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Speaker 4: a lot of these guys, if they're on the fringes,

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Speaker 4: this could be their only crack. Have still said no,

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Speaker 4: which is a phenomenal stage.

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Speaker 1: You know what.

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Speaker 2: There's a couple of old legends from Manly today who

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Speaker 2: did say, well, there's some great opportunities for some young

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Speaker 2: kids to really prove themselves on Thursday night time to

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Speaker 2: step up.

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Speaker 1: And stay in the It is a huge game.

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Speaker 4: It's also and it's worth pointing out it is a

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Speaker 4: Gotcha for Life your match as well. The two sides

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Speaker 4: are playing for the Gotcha for Life Cup, which we

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Speaker 4: know Gus walland who's done a huge amount of work

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Speaker 4: for it, which is worth pointing out as well because

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Speaker 4: it is a match that is designed to promote the

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Speaker 4: importance of mental health. And it's either ironic, it's poetic,

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Speaker 4: or it's disappointing that the whole conversation gets derailed by this.

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Speaker 4: But you know, these two sides are trying to do

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Speaker 4: their best, and everyone is trying to do their best,

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Speaker 4: and it's worth recognizing that Gotcha for Life Cup as well.

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Speaker 1: The Pits and Whipper Podcast