1 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:06,920 Speaker 1: From the newsroom a news dot com Today you. Gooday there, 2 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: I'm Andrew Bucklow, and listen, here's something you are probably 3 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: not aware of. Australia's female prison population is skyrocketing, and 4 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: behind every statistic is a story of survival, of trauma, 5 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: and of a system that is stacked against them. In 6 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 1: this episode, one of our reporters here at news dot 7 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:25,240 Speaker 1: com dot AU will take us inside this hidden crisis. 8 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: She'll explain why more women are ending up behind bars, 9 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: what happens to them after their release, and why the 10 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: punishment often doesn't end when the prison sentence does. I'm 11 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 1: joining the studio now by News dot com dot U 12 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: Sarah Keegan Giday. Sarah, Hey, Bucky thinks for having me 13 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: not a problem. You've done a number of articles for 14 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: news dot com dot you that show the number of 15 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: women in prison has jumped almost thirty three percent since 16 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 1: twenty fourteen. Why is this happening? What's driving this rise? 17 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty scary, and it's happening a lot since 18 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 2: sort of the last few year years, and I mean 19 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 2: speaking of experts throughout these sort of series of articles 20 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 2: that we're doing, and it's quite scary. It's kind of 21 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 2: a combination of things between sort the lingering effects of 22 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 2: COVID nineteen, but it's also the cost of living crisis, 23 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 2: and they're sort of saying, Willie, the data and you know, 24 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:17,039 Speaker 2: these prisoners are going to jail for sort of minor 25 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 2: things like theft, petty theft. If it's not petty theft, 26 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 2: it's sort of you know, illegal drug offenses, and so 27 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 2: it's sort of this cost of living crisis making people 28 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 2: sort of more desperate than ever before. 29 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:31,759 Speaker 1: Really, one of the most staggering figures from your articles 30 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: is that eighty five percent of women in prison are 31 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: victims themselves, often of domestic or sexual violence. One of 32 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 1: the people you spoke to was Devin Hammond, who spent 33 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:42,839 Speaker 1: more than two and a half years behind bars. Here's 34 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: how she described the women she met inside. 35 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 3: I found a lot of them were either from domestic violence, 36 00:01:52,480 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 3: relationships and abuse, and then mostly drug habits and things 37 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 3: like that, and either drug habits that had kind of 38 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:08,519 Speaker 3: come from their upbringing and you know, was some ways 39 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 3: normal to them, but also and this was something that 40 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 3: I didn't realize too, drug habits from events that had 41 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:18,639 Speaker 3: happened in their life. And I think that's also connected 42 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 3: to the domestic violence issues that some women were there 43 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 3: for too, is when it becomes a coping mechanism for 44 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 3: something else that has happened or is happening in their lives. 45 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 3: So yeah, it was really like I just learned so 46 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:39,399 Speaker 3: much about women not not being there for something that 47 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 3: they wanted to do or you know, intended to do 48 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 3: for any other reason than it was like survival. 49 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:52,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, Sarah, can you just unpack how experiences of violence, 50 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: especially domestic violence, can push women toward defending in the 51 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: first place. 52 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 2: And it's really it is such a big issue and 53 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 2: it's something that's not really spoken about. We talk about 54 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 2: DV so much in society now, but we don't really 55 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 2: have this understanding. When people have a record, it seems 56 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 2: like the sympathy sort of stops there, and it's really 57 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 2: about this sort of matter of self worth. I feel 58 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 2: like if people don't really know that they're in a 59 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 2: domestic violence situation, they don't really have a good value 60 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 2: of who they are, and it leads people to sort 61 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 2: of this life of crime, and it really does make 62 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 2: people sort of in this sort of state of petty 63 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:25,920 Speaker 2: crimes they can't get out, and it's this cycle. It's 64 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 2: really bad, and when they come out there's not support 65 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 2: there for them either. 66 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 1: Well you mentioned that. I mean, in your articles you 67 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: cover that life after prison for women is just as hard, 68 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: sometimes even harder. What kinds of barriers do women face 69 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: when they get out, especially around employment and housing. 70 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 2: Housing is a huge one. We see that, you know, 71 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 2: the services that are set up in New South Wales, 72 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 2: in particular the homeless services, they don't really account for 73 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 2: women coming out of custody. It's not the priority for them, 74 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 2: so they're sort of always on the bottom of the list. 75 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 2: And it's really a hard place for women coming out 76 00:03:57,760 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 2: of custody when often they don't have a lot of 77 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 2: funds either, so a lot of these women just end 78 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 2: up on the streets sadly. 79 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: And I guess not too many businesses really want to 80 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: hire someone who's just come out of prison do that. 81 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 2: It's a huge barrier for them. And even small things 82 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 2: like getting banking. If you know you have a financial 83 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 2: record and you've gone to jail for something finance related, 84 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 2: a lot of banks don't want to give you a 85 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 2: banking account. So you know, there's all these sort of 86 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 2: situational things, and you know, it's particularly when it comes 87 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 2: to women. A lot of the lawyers that I was 88 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 2: speaking to in this process, they're saying a lot of 89 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 2: blokes will sort of come out and you know it's 90 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 2: sort of that boys will be boys mentality, and uncle 91 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 2: will offer them a job. You know, they deserve a 92 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:39,280 Speaker 2: second chance, where there's a lot of these labels put 93 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 2: on women where it's like, you know, they're vindictive, they're evil, 94 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 2: and so you know, employers don't trust them and workers 95 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 2: don't trust them, so they aren't given that second chance. 96 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 1: Yeah. One of those lawyers you spoke to was criminal 97 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: defense lawyer Lauren Cassimade. She spoke about this. Let's have 98 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: a listen to what she had to say. 99 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 4: What you find with male offend is is that they're 100 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 4: either ridden off as or boys will be bought or 101 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:05,159 Speaker 4: you know, men are known for being aggressive or assertive, 102 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 4: so it's a given that they might commit a crime, 103 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 4: whereas with women were expected to be more nurturers or 104 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 4: caregivers and take more of a submissive role on so 105 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 4: the moment they're proactive, I guess in terms of committing 106 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 4: a crime, there's a real stigma attached to well, why 107 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 4: would this woman have done it. She must be deviants, 108 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 4: she's calculated, she's manipulated, or she's unhinged. That's the's sort 109 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 4: of the words that get attached to female offenders. So 110 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 4: in society, people just don't want to work with them. 111 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 4: People are afraid of them, or they don't trust them. So, 112 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 4: you know, they're left defend for themselves in that they 113 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:46,919 Speaker 4: have to somehow find a job. But it's difficult to 114 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:49,919 Speaker 4: find a job when there's a stigma attached to you 115 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 4: and people doubt your ability to work for them or 116 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 4: you know, produce work with integrity. So how do they 117 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 4: find work? A lot of them are either resorting to 118 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 4: crime again to get by or unfortunately homelessness increases. 119 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:10,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, fascinating insights there from Lauren. Listen, stick around Sarah. 120 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 1: In just a moment, we're going to talk about how 121 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 1: many women actually end up back in prison after they've 122 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: been let go. Welcome back. I'm chatting to news dot 123 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: com dot us Sarah Keegan about the growing number of 124 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:31,919 Speaker 1: Aussie women being put behind bars. Sarah, we've touched a 125 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:34,799 Speaker 1: little bit on the difficulty of finding work for women 126 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: after they're released from prison. How many women actually end 127 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:42,040 Speaker 1: up back behind bars, and what's driving that cycle of reoffending. 128 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a huge issue because often when they're 129 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 2: sort of face with these massive factors of not being 130 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 2: able to get banking, not being able to get finances, 131 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 2: not having a lot of support around them. When it 132 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 2: comes to housing, you know, a lot of the time, 133 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 2: it's sadly easier to reoffend and sort of get that 134 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 2: stable housing and get that stable food, and it's a 135 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 2: place that you know, they know, they know they have 136 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:02,599 Speaker 2: a support system. 137 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 1: There. 138 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 2: A lot of women inside end up, you know, having 139 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 2: great relationships with the people inside. They use each other 140 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 2: for support. So when you don't have a support on 141 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 2: the outside, they often turn to the support on the inside. 142 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: That's so sad, isn't it to think that some people 143 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: would prefer to be behind bars because life is easier 144 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:20,679 Speaker 1: for them than actually being on the outside when they're free. 145 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: Do we have stats on how many women actually end 146 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: up reoffending. 147 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 2: We have sort of like those sort of long term 148 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 2: stats of women that are sort of faced with sort 149 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 2: of years in years in prison, and it is just shocking, Bucky, 150 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 2: and it's only getting worse. And I think that when 151 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 2: we look at the number of women that are sort 152 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 2: of going into custody and then costing tax payers. I 153 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 2: mean we're paying about one hundred and sixty thousand dollars 154 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 2: per year per prison. So it's something that you know, 155 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 2: people can't just look at as an issue that doesn't 156 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 2: affect them. They don't worry about it, because it's affecting 157 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 2: everyone in Australia. 158 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: So after speaking to women experts and advocates, what do 159 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: they see is the most urgent solutions, what needs to 160 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: change to stop this cycle of women putting put behind bars. 161 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 2: I think that's twofold, Bucky. I think on one hand, 162 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 2: we sort of need those really important resources coming out 163 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 2: of prison. Out of custody, you know, we need to 164 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 2: have support systems in place when it comes to housing, 165 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 2: when it comes to finances, when it comes to sort 166 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 2: of women that are coming out and trying to reconnect 167 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 2: with their families, and you know, having those services available 168 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 2: to them and not sort of cut off from them 169 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 2: just because they do have a record. But then there's 170 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 2: also this sort of you know, other part of it 171 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 2: that's societal. The next step I think in understanding DV 172 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 2: and understanding you know, trauma in when it comes to 173 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 2: women is sort of extending that sympathy to women because 174 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:38,079 Speaker 2: they have a record. I mean, there's always a story 175 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 2: behind why a woman goes to prison, and more often 176 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 2: than not, it's something that you know, they've experienced early 177 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 2: on life or even you know, as recent as the 178 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 2: day before they went to jail. And I think as 179 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 2: a society we just need to sort of have an 180 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 2: understanding that there's always a why behind that. 181 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: And I guess we can't excuse the fact that they 182 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: are committing crimes though, I mean, they are breaking the 183 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: law and therefore they do end up to go behind bars. 184 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: But as you said, it is important to find out 185 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: the why. Of all the women you spoke to for 186 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:06,839 Speaker 1: your articles on us dot com dot you, is there 187 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: one story that really stayed with you. 188 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 2: I think that one of them really shocked me. I guess, 189 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 2: like just as a tax payer, was one of the 190 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 2: women that was trying to get a tertiary education while 191 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 2: behind bars, and she was sort of saying that the 192 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 2: attitude was just so horrid, like she would be, you know, 193 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 2: being given startle remarks by the guards and it was 194 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 2: really like not encouraged to be doing education behind bars. 195 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 3: There's so much sitting around and just wasted potential and 196 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 3: no access to education or no access to be able 197 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:44,079 Speaker 3: to learn skills that people could then use for employment 198 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 3: and to gain jobs and everything once they do leave. 199 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:52,839 Speaker 3: And I honestly went into like prior to custody, thinking, great, 200 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 3: I'll study a degree, I'll do something totally different so 201 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 3: that I'm set up for when I'm finished this, i 202 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 3: can start something else. But that was like just a 203 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 3: pipe dream. There's no access to it. There's nothing that 204 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 3: people can do really, or there's not a lot while 205 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 3: they're just sitting around for sometimes years on end to 206 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 3: give them at least some sort of head start or 207 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 3: something under their belt. And I think as well, not 208 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 3: even just the education of it, but the self worth 209 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 3: and the realization that they're capable of doing more. 210 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 2: The stats coming out from everywhere in the UK in 211 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 2: America that say, you know, the rates of reoffending just 212 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 2: go so much more down when women have an education 213 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 2: in prisons, And I think that was the most shocking 214 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 2: to me, was that I'm going, why wouldn't you encourage 215 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 2: education for someone behind bars when they have all this 216 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 2: time on their hands. So that was really worrying to me, 217 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,199 Speaker 2: just sort of how like it was not encouraged. 218 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:50,959 Speaker 1: At all, and that's kind of the whole point of prison, 219 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: isn't it. It's like, kind of you're meant to rehabilitate 220 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: these people to be put back into public. That's shocking 221 00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: that that's not encouraged. Sarah, there's such fascinating articles you've written. 222 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: It's obviously a very important topic. Thanks for jumping on 223 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 1: the podcast today. 224 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Bucky appreciate it. 225 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: You can read all of Sarah's articles at news dot 226 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: com dot au. Thank you so much for listening. Will 227 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: chat to you again tomorrow. 228 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 4: Follow us, subscribe to from the Newsroom wherever you get 229 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 4: your podcasts.