Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 2: Detective sy aside of life.
Speaker 1: The average person is never exposed her I spent thirty
Speaker 1: four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years,
Speaker 1: I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living.
Speaker 1: I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing
Speaker 1: bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world
Speaker 1: in which I operated. The guests I talk to each
Speaker 1: week have amazing stories from all sides of the law.
Speaker 1: The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people
Speaker 1: I talk to. Some of the content and language might
Speaker 1: be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact
Speaker 1: with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I
Speaker 1: take you into this world. Welcome to another episode of
Speaker 1: I Catch Killers. Today's guest was addicted to heroin for
Speaker 1: twenty two years. He didn't like himself, and he hurt
Speaker 1: people close to him. The person he is now is
Speaker 1: so far removed from that person is hardly recognizable today.
Speaker 1: Our guest, Nick Midgley, is in the studio to talk
Speaker 1: about crime, addiction, love, relationships, masculinity, tattoos, and recovery. Nick Midgley, Welcome,
Speaker 1: to I catch killers.
Speaker 2: Thank you man, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: Now, Nick, you're addicted to heroin for twenty two years.
Speaker 1: It's a long time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a fair whack, man, it's a fair whack.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah yeah. How long you been cleaned for? Now?
Speaker 2: About four and a half years, well clean and sober
Speaker 2: four and a half. Yeah. Okay, So it's no alcohol,
Speaker 2: no dressing at all anymore.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And is that and we'll talk more about the
Speaker 1: stuff you do with hope and health.
Speaker 2: But is that part of it?
Speaker 1: If you're going to kick one, you've got to kick
Speaker 1: the other or you just fall into bad habits.
Speaker 2: Look, I don't think it is necessarily for anyone. But
Speaker 2: I believe that anyone that's got any sort of like,
Speaker 2: you know, history of you know, of trauma and using
Speaker 2: any sort of vice is to sort of cover up
Speaker 2: any you know, any undigested living experiences and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: I don't think you can use anything to sort of
Speaker 2: like block anything, you know. I think that some people
Speaker 2: are just sort of running up for a little while.
Speaker 2: It'll be too hard for a little while, and they
Speaker 2: can sort of return to some sort of you know,
Speaker 2: social drinking or social you know, you know, social stuff, but.
Speaker 1: I suppose it's in eight in you if you've got
Speaker 1: that addictive personality or you're relying on it. I've seen
Speaker 1: people not through work. People I know that we're addicted
Speaker 1: to drugs. They kick that, but then they become alcoholics. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that becomes their crutch. Or I've seen others that go
Speaker 1: from drugs and then find religion.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely absolutely. Look I mean with me, like
Speaker 2: I don't think I've ever had so much of an
Speaker 2: alcohol problem, and it's something that sort of doesn't really
Speaker 2: sort of like you know, you know that they don't
Speaker 2: really enjoy that much, you know, you know, but like
Speaker 2: I just can't guarantee my behavior on the alcohol, you know,
Speaker 2: like I do. I do some stupid stuff that you know,
Speaker 2: like I act out of alignment to my values, you know,
Speaker 2: Like you know, I've had a history of you know,
Speaker 2: cheating on my partners and you know, all gambling and
Speaker 2: you know, just just just doing stupid stuff that I
Speaker 2: would never do sober, you know. So like you know,
Speaker 2: and also like you know, like I don't think there's
Speaker 2: been any if or very rarely have I put a
Speaker 2: needle in my you know, after a period of like
Speaker 2: you know, substantial clean time about like you know, having
Speaker 2: sort of alcohol or something something alcohol.
Speaker 1: I see people that say, you know, alcohol is not
Speaker 1: a problem, but every time their life stuffs up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it starts with drinking. Starts with drinking.
Speaker 1: And now I'm fine and you can speak, speak to
Speaker 1: the person the way they conduct their life, the way
Speaker 1: they go about their business perfect. Then they get on
Speaker 1: the bender and the world turns upside down against that.
Speaker 2: Yeah for sure. So I mean it's just that simple
Speaker 2: for me. My life is so good now. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 2: not about to have a drink, but I don't want
Speaker 2: to risk it, you know, not over a beer, you
Speaker 2: know few and if I ended up in the position
Speaker 2: I was in four years ago, start drink, you know, to.
Speaker 1: Start all over again. So tell our listeners who Nick
Speaker 1: Midgeley is.
Speaker 2: What's your what's your your.
Speaker 1: Background and brief of your life, and then more.
Speaker 2: Dissect It's pretty complete question. So who's it? Oh mate?
Speaker 2: I look, I mean at a at a general level,
Speaker 2: I was just a kid from Melbourne that sort of
Speaker 2: you know that they grew up and gravitated the drugs
Speaker 2: really quickly. And at the time I had no idea why,
Speaker 2: because I seemed to have come from a decent family,
Speaker 2: you know, a decent, decent area and stuff. You know,
Speaker 2: my dad was a good provider, you know, spent spend
Speaker 2: times at good schools and you know, and and there
Speaker 2: was no from an outside perspective, there's no no idea
Speaker 2: why it happened, you know, and I sort of lived
Speaker 2: in that sort of confusion, like I didn't really know why.
Speaker 2: But yeah, later on from doing you know a lot
Speaker 2: of work from on myself, you know, like you know,
Speaker 2: it turned out because of you know, my father was
Speaker 2: essentially completely absent my whole life. And you know, my
Speaker 2: mother had her own traumas. You know, she went from
Speaker 2: a really maternal mother to a complete emotionally shut off mother.
Speaker 2: And as a kid, you know, when when you have
Speaker 2: an experience like that from you know, your maternal maternal parents,
Speaker 2: when they just emotionally shut off from you, you know,
Speaker 2: it has a really you know, traumatic effect on you.
Speaker 2: You know. And and so I mean I've got you know,
Speaker 2: so I walked around essentially my teenage years with like
Speaker 2: you know, all these abandonment and attachment wounds and stuff
Speaker 2: like that, and you know, self medicated that stuff with
Speaker 2: with with heavy drugs.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's how you got into it. Yeah, it's interesting
Speaker 1: you say. And I've heard you in one of the
Speaker 1: many talks that you've done, you talk about your mother's
Speaker 1: trauma when she was a kid, and that into generational trauma,
Speaker 1: how it carries through because you don't fully understand that,
Speaker 1: so you can stand stand back and look back and yeah, right,
Speaker 1: that's what it's about. But it's such formative years as
Speaker 1: a child.
Speaker 2: And if if you.
Speaker 1: Said your dad, dad was absent but providing, and then
Speaker 1: your mum shut down emotionally, it can can play with
Speaker 1: a kid's mind.
Speaker 2: Yeah he can. It definitely does. It definitely does, and
Speaker 2: it's on a real deep level. And that's the that's
Speaker 2: the thing that that I'm glad that I know that
Speaker 2: I've got to go through it as well, you know,
Speaker 2: because my oldest son will also have similar stuff, you know,
Speaker 2: with me raising him on my own and essentially having
Speaker 2: to grow up with him, you know, and so he's
Speaker 2: going to have similar stuff. He does have similar stuff,
Speaker 2: a bit different, but like you know, like it's good,
Speaker 2: it's good that I went through because now I can
Speaker 2: understand it. I can help him through his process too,
Speaker 2: you know, it's yeah.
Speaker 1: It makes sense, and you clearly you look back at
Speaker 1: your life and you're dissecting your life and it gives you.
Speaker 1: It gives you an understanding that you don't necessarily see
Speaker 1: when you're going through it, but and knowing the impact
Speaker 1: that you can have on your job. Now, I'm going
Speaker 1: to ask you up front the tattoos, mate. What firstly,
Speaker 1: when when did you when did you decide to cover
Speaker 1: the body in tattoos?
Speaker 2: Man, I've got my first tattoo at thirteen. It's something
Speaker 2: that's always intrigued me. You know. I had a friend
Speaker 2: of a friend's older brother drew some crap on us,
Speaker 2: and then I do a lot of cover up work
Speaker 2: and committed myself early and then you know, it just
Speaker 2: got that stage where I just I reached out tipping
Speaker 2: point where you know, I went over halfway and then
Speaker 2: like everything else started to look naked, so I just
Speaker 2: went went all out. You know.
Speaker 1: It can become addictive, Yeah I think so, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think so.
Speaker 2: But but all my stuff, like you know, almost us
Speaker 2: my own you know, my own sort of like you know,
Speaker 2: design stuff like my tattles is actually the hardest as well,
Speaker 2: you know, so like I've give them an idea and
Speaker 2: you draw it up for me and stuff like that,
Speaker 2: so you know, it's not like a you know, it's
Speaker 2: not like a stencil job that I went to Bali
Speaker 2: and you know in two days that's sense of stuff
Speaker 2: on me to everyone else has got to you know,
Speaker 2: it's good advice. Let's get advice to anyone listening. Don't
Speaker 2: get a tattoo. But it's not a good idea. You
Speaker 2: might think it's cool, it's like coming back in a
Speaker 2: big tea. Yeah for sure.
Speaker 1: Sure that's covered in tattoos Like that, people would react
Speaker 1: to you differently, like you're a big, strong bloke. You're
Speaker 1: covered in covered in tattoos, and I would imagine you
Speaker 1: get and because it's a podcast, you got the neck tattoos,
Speaker 1: the full sleeve tattoos. Do you get different reactions from
Speaker 1: people or they assume you're a type of person?
Speaker 2: Uh yeah, look, yeah I think I do. I think
Speaker 2: I do sometimes, but like I generally, you know, it
Speaker 2: generally doesn't bother me so much anymore. You know, I
Speaker 2: used to really sort of take things personally the way
Speaker 2: people would react to me, and you know, like I
Speaker 2: walked around my whole child would assuming I was getting judged,
Speaker 2: you know, whether I was, I wasn't. You know, I
Speaker 2: lived in you know, I lived in fear of what
Speaker 2: people thought of me. I need a validation from other people.
Speaker 2: The reality is mane you know, like I you know,
Speaker 2: like I mean, I liked tattoos. I work for myself,
Speaker 2: I don't, you know, don't it's sort of met up
Speaker 2: to anyone else's standards.
Speaker 1: You're not working in the bank, all right, No, that's right,
Speaker 1: that's right.
Speaker 2: You know, is there a story to them? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean yeah, you know, like it starts off with like,
Speaker 2: you know, all sort of you know, you can see
Speaker 2: sort of like a criminal pass on my back and
Speaker 2: stuff like that, and sort of now I sort of
Speaker 2: merge into more of a spiritual thing. Okay. We all evolved. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's rights, right, we all evolved.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about your your childhood. First up, where
Speaker 1: did you grow up?
Speaker 2: I grew up in Melbourne, as in the city of Melbourne.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and when you got into drugs early and I
Speaker 1: think I heard that you were you were using heroin
Speaker 1: at thirteen.
Speaker 2: Or yeah, yeah, injecting, injecting, Yeah, yeah, you're still at school? Yeah,
Speaker 2: explain how that it's mate. It's quite funny. Like, actually,
Speaker 2: I I haven't been diagnosed with add or or anything,
Speaker 2: you know, but I always struggled at school. And my
Speaker 2: oldest got diagnosed with a d D. And when when
Speaker 2: I took him to the pediatrician, he was rattling off
Speaker 2: all the all the symptoms of a d D, and
Speaker 2: they all resonated with me, every single one. I ever
Speaker 2: really know what it was. I didn't know what it was,
Speaker 2: and like, you know, and I'm not going to get
Speaker 2: diagnosed now because like I've learned to live with it
Speaker 2: and around it, and like, but you know, I struggled
Speaker 2: to digest information school. Like I used to go to school.
Speaker 2: I used to feel dumb because I couldn't I couldn't
Speaker 2: really understand what was going on. Like I could read,
Speaker 2: I just couldn't digest the information I was reading. Uh.
Speaker 2: And when I found Heroin, you know, it's like just
Speaker 2: my mind just relaxed and I was able just to
Speaker 2: like focus on what I was doing. Like, you know,
Speaker 2: I I honestly thought that like I'd found the holy
Speaker 2: Grail you know of like you know, of of of
Speaker 2: of substance, and yeah, I thought, if I can use it,
Speaker 2: because I thought people were like you know, you know,
Speaker 2: like you know, junkies were like you know, predisposition to
Speaker 2: become junkies, and it came from like, you know, really
Speaker 2: shitty backgrounds and stuff like which I didn't. I had
Speaker 2: a bit of ego even back then, you know, And
Speaker 2: and for a long time, I dabbled, like I didn't.
Speaker 2: I didn't actually have a habit till I was, you know,
Speaker 2: fifteen or sixteen. Like I dabbled, you know, I used
Speaker 2: it regularly for you for quite a few years, you know,
Speaker 2: and I was able to get like, you know, quite
Speaker 2: a lot of school work done from from and you
Speaker 2: could still function. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah mate. Most people
Speaker 2: didn't know I was using until until about sixteen, you know,
Speaker 2: like you know, my my, my mum and my dad
Speaker 2: found out because I ran away from boarding school and
Speaker 2: they went up there to grab my stuff and empty
Speaker 2: my closets and stuff, and I found using paraphernalia in
Speaker 2: there in my school blazer. You know. But like you know,
Speaker 2: I think most people didn't know because I had just
Speaker 2: so much shame around a lot. I didn't told people
Speaker 2: and talk to people and stuff, so most people didn't
Speaker 2: know that, you know, that that had any sort of
Speaker 2: like you know, drug problem outside a bit of a
Speaker 2: choof problem or something until I was about sixteen.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm interested in the mindset like you would have
Speaker 1: even at that tender age, you would have heard the
Speaker 1: warnings about hero and you know, you had one hit
Speaker 1: and you're hooked and all that. I've spoken to a
Speaker 1: lot of people that think, yeah, that's for the other guy.
Speaker 1: I'm a bit different, I'm a bit special. I can
Speaker 1: control it. Is that that the thought process you I.
Speaker 2: Think, yeah, it was what I had. But actually, you know,
Speaker 2: from now working with a lot of other people in
Speaker 2: addiction to it's a really common thing, you know, like
Speaker 2: it's you know, a lot of people, a lot of
Speaker 2: people feel like that. A lot of people feel like,
Speaker 2: you know, made the amount of times you've heard about
Speaker 2: someone on a you know, on a Bucks party or
Speaker 2: something like, you know, have a you know, someone brings
Speaker 2: out a crack pipe and you know, and they have
Speaker 2: a few, you know, a few puffs on a pipe
Speaker 2: and mate, you know, you know, a year and a
Speaker 2: half later, they've lost their families and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: I've heard them say they're chasing that high again. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so you for it, but you're chasing it and before
Speaker 1: you realize that you are what you thought you never
Speaker 1: would be.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that was a really scary because you know,
Speaker 2: that was a really scary time for me. I think
Speaker 2: I think I was about fifteen, you know, like you know,
Speaker 2: when when I realized it got me. You know, like
Speaker 2: I had this at this moment where a friend of mine.
Speaker 2: I was talking to a friend of mine about like,
Speaker 2: you know, not being asleep well and like, you know,
Speaker 2: you know, I was feeling a bit nauseous lately and stuff,
Speaker 2: you know, and he's going, mate, it's because you're hanging
Speaker 2: out like that's that's that's a smack it's got you know.
Speaker 2: I was like, oh fuck, yeah, right, Okay, maybe I've
Speaker 2: been pushing a bit hard. So in my head I thought,
Speaker 2: you know, I'll just stop, you know, and then when
Speaker 2: I actually tried, I just couldn't.
Speaker 1: So virtually, and there's a cautionary tale the people that
Speaker 1: go down that path. You think you're not addicted. I
Speaker 1: think you can step away. It's just a matter of
Speaker 1: I'm choosing not to at this stage. But then before
Speaker 1: you realize that you're addicted.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's that choice. Yeah, And then you actually you
Speaker 2: actually try, then you realize, like it's got a it's
Speaker 2: got a I mean, Heroin's got the physical pool. It's
Speaker 2: got obviously the physical withdrawals as well, but it's also
Speaker 2: a mental pool as well. And the second the second
Speaker 2: the mental pool. The mental pool triggers the physical pool,
Speaker 2: you know, so like you know, if you think about it,
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, your body starts to crave it
Speaker 2: and withdraw from it. You know.
Speaker 1: So breaking that down, you're saying, saying that mental drive
Speaker 1: to to have a hit, Yeah, then you're physically reacting
Speaker 1: it because it's in your mind.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, for example, though, it took me like two
Speaker 2: three years from my first shot to develop a habit. Now,
Speaker 2: if I have a couple of patatine for it, or
Speaker 2: anything with a bit of opiates in it, like my
Speaker 2: receptors just go crazy and I start like, you know,
Speaker 2: we're drawing straight away, you know, like you know, like
Speaker 2: I don't take any opiates because like it's you know,
Speaker 2: like of my name, my you know, all my receptors
Speaker 2: are so sensitive to that stuff now, so I'll just
Speaker 2: stay away from it. All.
Speaker 1: Okay, how did you afford it at that age?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean I because I had a school uniform.
Speaker 2: I mean in a few different ways, they had a
Speaker 2: school uniform. So someone that was moving quite a bit
Speaker 2: to all the you know, all the crack houses back then,
Speaker 2: you know, there's a gap week the Hollywood, the Regal,
Speaker 2: the beach house and stuff that was just sort of
Speaker 2: all around some kilder and stuff like that. And that'd
Speaker 2: just get me to move a little bit because I
Speaker 2: had a school uniform, none whatever suspecting, you know. And
Speaker 2: and and so I did a little bit of that
Speaker 2: sometimes on weekends, you know when when when when the
Speaker 2: working girls were getting getting pulled up and robbed and
Speaker 2: stuff like that, you know, the whole money for them
Speaker 2: for just a little rock here and there. You know,
Speaker 2: you know, when I when I was under eighteen, like
Speaker 2: I used to do a lot of crime, used to
Speaker 2: do a lot of breaking enders and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: And but yeah, look you know, but I was you know,
Speaker 2: like you know, I did all my my crime pretty
Speaker 2: much under eighteen, you know, because like I really, you know,
Speaker 2: I was so fun I was so fearful of that
Speaker 2: that life, like I was in it because I had
Speaker 2: a habit. But like I was so fucking terrified the
Speaker 2: whole time I was. I was using at that age
Speaker 2: when I was when I was seventeen, I got taken
Speaker 2: over to Sicily by a mentor. He showed me how
Speaker 2: to work and taught me a couple of trades and
Speaker 2: stuff like that. And I didn't necessarily get rid of
Speaker 2: the drug problem, but like I was able to sort of,
Speaker 2: you know, live live a live a life of a
Speaker 2: working working man, and you know, and then drive down
Speaker 2: to rich mendal footscrade, go get my drugs and come
Speaker 2: back to you know.
Speaker 1: Well it's a normal life and we'll go further into it.
Speaker 1: But it was almost like you were a functioning heroin addict.
Speaker 1: You were doing some work as you got older.
Speaker 2: Yeah, as I was seventeen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, before we leave your childhood, so you're a young fifteen,
Speaker 1: sixteen or whatever. And when you said the working girl,
Speaker 1: so sex workers and they were, you were holding some
Speaker 1: stuff them.
Speaker 2: You get a bit of it was holy money. I
Speaker 2: was holding money for them and so they wouldn't get robbed.
Speaker 2: And then they'd give me that, you know, when they
Speaker 2: got on, they broke off a little rock for me
Speaker 2: or something like that. You know, So I mean, it's
Speaker 2: just stuff like that. Look, I mean, just like there's
Speaker 2: a couple of things that just happened. Is you know
Speaker 2: when I was a kid, you know, like you know,
Speaker 2: like you didn't trust anyone. I remember, like you know,
Speaker 2: when we used to do like breaking inns and stuff
Speaker 2: like that. You know, one of us was sort of
Speaker 2: like you know, you know, standing there, you know, stolen
Speaker 2: car at the front, and every one would sort of
Speaker 2: go in and you and grab what they want and
Speaker 2: stuff like that. You know, but neither of you trusted
Speaker 2: either of you. You know, Like I remember, like, you know,
Speaker 2: if I used to go into the house, you know,
Speaker 2: there was a wallet on the kitchen table, I'd grab
Speaker 2: the cash and that would just be fair game for
Speaker 2: me going in and stuff like that. And among fooves. No,
Speaker 2: that's right, that's right. And I remember this one time,
Speaker 2: you know, like a little coey, you know, I used
Speaker 2: to do a lot of these with you know, like
Speaker 2: we just didn't trust each other, and I felt something
Speaker 2: was like fucking was off, you know, and we put
Speaker 2: up at seven eleven. Because back in the day, when
Speaker 2: you get your prepaid credit, it's got can you go
Speaker 2: in and get some credits and get on you know,
Speaker 2: was like, yeah, I'll go in and just give me
Speaker 2: the keys, you know, because I just assume that he's
Speaker 2: going to drive off in the car all that stuff
Speaker 2: and all stuff, and he's gone show me your pockets,
Speaker 2: you know, so he like I knew he was going
Speaker 2: to run off, and he knew I had stuff in
Speaker 2: my pockets. You know. No, I just had this fucking
Speaker 2: that was a big realization that just living a fucking
Speaker 2: really lonely life where I didn't trust anyone around me.
Speaker 1: Were you're still with your family, we're still living no none.
Speaker 2: At that stage, my mom kicked me out I think
Speaker 2: at thirteen or fourteen, fourteen, I think, and my dad
Speaker 2: at fifteen, you know when she she kicked me out
Speaker 2: to my dad's and then my dad not long So
Speaker 2: where were you putting your head down? Uh? Well, a
Speaker 2: lot of time the mentor took me over to Sicily. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, but I the stolen cars as well, just
Speaker 2: just wherever, you know, or or just stay up all
Speaker 2: night as well, you know, like just but yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: there's always like there was always you know, like some
Speaker 2: sort of little little halfway crack house I could stay
Speaker 2: out too, and like, you know, he gives upon a
Speaker 2: little bit of a rock, you know, through one of
Speaker 2: your urns or whatever.
Speaker 1: It's a pretty treacherous and dangerous world at that age,
Speaker 1: like to be hanging around in those those environments.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's you know, the reason I was so scared
Speaker 2: is because, like obviously because of my age, I was
Speaker 2: really vulnerable. You know, I was really vulnerable because I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, when you when you're around drugs like heroin
Speaker 2: and back then is when when ice was first coming out,
Speaker 2: was coming out from the Indonesian they used to call
Speaker 2: it shaboo and it was first coming out, and and
Speaker 2: you know, when you when you're that age, you know,
Speaker 2: you're really vulnerable. Man. These people are really fucking desperate,
Speaker 2: you know, and like you know, and you know, I
Speaker 2: mean when I when I was a bit old and
Speaker 2: I'd go in and stuff like, I didn't have that
Speaker 2: sort of same fear around it, like people then sort
Speaker 2: of like stand over me. But people saw me coming
Speaker 2: from a mile the way back then, you know, and
Speaker 2: you know, just just you know, certain stuff happened.
Speaker 1: Just just did anyone try and steer you in the
Speaker 1: right direction that we'll talk about your mental before we
Speaker 1: get on to get on to your mental anyone like family, relatives,
Speaker 1: school teachers, anyone, just grab hold of you and go mate,
Speaker 1: what are you doing?
Speaker 2: Mate? No, I'm not really, I'm not not in the
Speaker 2: way of like I mean, my parents were just lost me,
Speaker 2: you know that. I mean that day, their own shit
Speaker 2: going on there, their own separations, and they had all
Speaker 2: their own stuff going on to I think they really
Speaker 2: worried about my siblings as well. I think that sort
Speaker 2: of the chalking up as a bit lost lost calls.
Speaker 2: Let's just worry about what younger siblings, older brother, younger
Speaker 2: younger sister.
Speaker 1: So who's this mentor that took you over the sicily?
Speaker 1: What was that relationship? He was a bit of antory
Speaker 1: of someone that comes from Sicily.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been a bit of a knock about around Melbourne. See,
Speaker 2: you know back in the days when you know, when
Speaker 2: when when you use smacking, no crim trusted you anymore.
Speaker 2: So he sort of got like his run was over
Speaker 2: so to speak when I met him, and he is
Speaker 2: just you know, essentially since it became a user. But like, hey,
Speaker 2: he thought school was really important and he knew that
Speaker 2: I was doing it, and you knew that I was going. Okay,
Speaker 2: that so you know, I met him when I was
Speaker 2: about sixteen, you know, and he's going, mate, look I'm
Speaker 2: going to go Sisly to get clean, you know, and
Speaker 2: he's gone, I want to take you. Let's just finish
Speaker 2: the school had about six or seven months of school
Speaker 2: left or something, and I said, when you finish your school,
Speaker 2: we'll go overseas, you know, and I'll take you over there.
Speaker 2: And he's gonna make you or you won't live till
Speaker 2: you're twenty one if you live like this, you know.
Speaker 2: And so, okay, I didn't actually think he was going
Speaker 2: to do it, you know, like I know what was
Speaker 2: in it for him? Nothing, just no, no, I mean look,
Speaker 2: I mean he was one of the guys that used
Speaker 2: to get me in a sort of run dope around
Speaker 2: for maybe had a bit of a conscience, and you know,
Speaker 2: he felt like, fuck, I've you know, I've. It didn't
Speaker 2: start me on the year, but my habit certainly fucking
Speaker 2: went right up because of what I was doing for him.
Speaker 2: And you know, the guy that he was working with,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: So and so he was he was addicted to and
Speaker 1: he wanted to go clean himself up.
Speaker 2: But go back.
Speaker 1: I assume he's from there originally or yeah, family over there.
Speaker 1: So he said you finished school, yeah, and then I'll
Speaker 1: take you over the sicily Yeah and okay, tell us
Speaker 1: about that.
Speaker 2: That experience that was that was an incredible experience. Man,
Speaker 2: that was incredible. That's I mean, I learned they got
Speaker 2: such a big they've got such a hard work ethic
Speaker 2: over there. Like when when I when I first went
Speaker 2: over there, like he was a really hard man. You know,
Speaker 2: he was a really hard man. And when I first
Speaker 2: went over there, I really struggled because you were so
Speaker 2: hard on me, and like you know, I was so
Speaker 2: like you know, emotionally mentally weak. Then you know, like
Speaker 2: a day's hard work for me, it seemed like a
Speaker 2: fucking death sentence. You know what type of work we
Speaker 2: do mainly farm work or like you know, I worked
Speaker 2: as a as a labor and a steel factory and
Speaker 2: stuff like you know, and but like the are the
Speaker 2: long days, man, like like you know, worked very hard. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: especially especially on the farms. You know. You you you
Speaker 2: arrive on on site or on the farm, you know,
Speaker 2: just before the sun's comes up and the second it's
Speaker 2: light enough to be able to see, you start working
Speaker 2: and you work until you can't see what you're doing anymore.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: Did that you get off the drugs when you were
Speaker 1: over there?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, Look, I mean I still drunk. I had
Speaker 2: the occasional bit of coke and stuff like that, you know,
Speaker 2: but you know, like I was so so broke, you know,
Speaker 2: like you know, like if I if I got on
Speaker 2: the cozonly because someone that had it would give me
Speaker 2: a couple of lines or something. You know, Like I
Speaker 2: was earning about like you know, one hundred year old
Speaker 2: a week, you know, when I was seventeen, it is
Speaker 2: about what equivalent of one hundred and fifty bucks a week,
Speaker 2: you know, and I work in my ass off too,
Speaker 2: like you know, so that was like the apprentice wage
Speaker 2: back then.
Speaker 1: And there's a did you did your family worry about you?
Speaker 1: Or did you have anyone back here going?
Speaker 2: It was a one way ticket, yeah, because my dad
Speaker 2: paid for the ticket. He gave me a one way
Speaker 2: ticket and that's no shit. And when I actually wanted
Speaker 2: to come back, he didn't let me. Easy, mate, You
Speaker 2: can come back when you when you earn it, you know,
Speaker 2: as okay, yeah, you.
Speaker 1: Know, And how long did you spend over there?
Speaker 2: Three years in total? Yeeah, Yeah, yeah it was. It
Speaker 2: was on and off a bit. I came back a
Speaker 2: couple of times and relapse and quickly went back over
Speaker 2: you know, like I just yeah, you know, and then
Speaker 2: it just got those stage where you know, I thought
Speaker 2: I might live here because like you know, I just
Speaker 2: just couldn't do Melbourne, you know.
Speaker 1: But yeah, when Okay, so how old you have?
Speaker 2: Three years?
Speaker 1: Seventeen you're looking twenty twenty one. Yeah, you've come back here,
Speaker 1: so straight back to Melbourne?
Speaker 2: Yeahs, I went straight back to Melbourne. I think I
Speaker 2: think it lasted a few months before I got back
Speaker 2: on it. And then when I was can I I
Speaker 2: stop you there?
Speaker 1: Nick, Just tell me the mindset there, like you've gone
Speaker 1: to all the trouble of going overseas to tidy tidy
Speaker 1: year ACKed up? Yeap, you've come back and you've yeah,
Speaker 1: you lasted for a couple of months. Were you lying
Speaker 1: to yourself for deluding yourself and just going ah, I'll
Speaker 1: just have a taste.
Speaker 2: And I'll be right. What was nah? I think I
Speaker 2: think every every time I came back from sicily, i'd
Speaker 2: come back with the intention not to ever use again,
Speaker 2: you know, And I feel really strong when I was
Speaker 2: over there. But Melbourne, Melbourne itself is for me, it's
Speaker 2: a really dangerous city for me to be in, you know,
Speaker 2: like a a I've like I've had a shot and
Speaker 2: like every you know, every toil in the city streets. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I know the streets. I know all the areas. I
Speaker 2: know who to look for, like and the thing is
Speaker 2: for me to get on now up where I live,
Speaker 2: you know. I mean there's all the stuff. It's heroin
Speaker 2: as Ayes is all that stuff there. But for me
Speaker 2: to go get on up there, I would have to
Speaker 2: call up a few people and to find out who's
Speaker 2: not doing too well, chase it down or you know,
Speaker 2: go go like you know, bump into a couple of
Speaker 2: sort of like rough looking people and you know, try
Speaker 2: to sort of wheezer my way in a bit and stuff.
Speaker 2: Whereas in Melbourne, I'll get one bad thought, I know
Speaker 2: exactly where to go, and I'm going to get on quick,
Speaker 2: you know, and so like you know, there's there's not
Speaker 2: much of it. Yeah, there's not much buffets. You know,
Speaker 2: if I ever thought of using now, the process of
Speaker 2: actually getting on on is big enough for me now
Speaker 2: for some bit of sense to to slip into a
Speaker 2: little gap and just go.
Speaker 1: I understand what you're saying, Like, if it's there readily accessible, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's easy. You could just have this thought in your
Speaker 1: head and you're on it straight away. The environment you're
Speaker 1: in now, it's not not that simple. So how long
Speaker 1: did you say? In Melbourne?
Speaker 2: For? Not long? Not long? I and I get myself
Speaker 2: in a bit of trouble. What was that about? Between
Speaker 2: between them? I made of mind and me. You know,
Speaker 2: we went this idea that you know, it's a little
Speaker 2: bit of coke and a bit of psychosis. You know,
Speaker 2: we flushed it and you know, and we owed a
Speaker 2: bit of money. We had, we had money coming in,
Speaker 2: but it was a while away and I just needed
Speaker 2: to get away for a bit, you know.
Speaker 1: Talk us, talk us through that, because I think, so
Speaker 1: you're using and then all of a sudden you're becoming
Speaker 1: paranoid or yeah whatever, and you've flushed. You're thinking the
Speaker 1: cops are coming through the door.
Speaker 2: Yeah, may I was. I was never going to be
Speaker 2: a successful drug dealer because of moment, you know, because
Speaker 2: I use I used drugs too heavily, you know, and
Speaker 2: so maybe if I've got if I've got a fucking
Speaker 2: bunch of coke. You know, I'm not just gonna sit
Speaker 2: there and wait for people to buy, like I'll be
Speaker 2: using it while before they come.
Speaker 1: So when you flushed that, you're obviously going you've got some.
Speaker 1: You got it on tick and you add the money
Speaker 1: back to the people you got it from, but you
Speaker 1: ain't got the drugs anymore.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well you had money owed to me too.
Speaker 2: I mean, that wasn't the only reason. I just I
Speaker 2: had to I had to get out of town, just
Speaker 2: because my whole life was just fucking falling apart, you know.
Speaker 2: So I frond of the people I had the money to.
Speaker 2: I said, look, I'm not going anywhere. I'm getting out
Speaker 2: for a bit. I've got I've got this money coming in.
Speaker 2: I just got to just just fucking trust me. And
Speaker 2: and so, and I asked my mom, who kicked me out,
Speaker 2: as I said before, as a teenager who moved to
Speaker 2: Byron Bay, probably to get away from me, to be honest,
Speaker 2: And I beg there, I said, Mom, I've just got
Speaker 2: to get away from here, you know, like my life's
Speaker 2: just fucking falling apart. And and she said that, you
Speaker 2: know she's going, well, if you come up here, you
Speaker 2: come up on the on you know, on the condition
Speaker 2: that you enroll into this rehab up here, which is
Speaker 2: the Buttery my dad like, and she's gone. They got
Speaker 2: like a six or seven month weightlist, so you got
Speaker 2: to you gotta call before you come up to get
Speaker 2: on the weight list, and then you've got to call
Speaker 2: every week when you're on there. And and so I
Speaker 2: called when I came up, and then yeah, I had
Speaker 2: no intention to actually actually go there, you know, like
Speaker 2: I just thought, mate, it's six seven months and a
Speaker 2: time for for me to get my shit together where
Speaker 2: I can come back, you know. For for whatever reason,
Speaker 2: I always felt like I had to be back in Melbourne.
Speaker 2: Like I didn't think I could actually break away from it.
Speaker 2: I didn't think I could break away from it, you know.
Speaker 2: I didn't think I wanted to either, you know, because
Speaker 2: when I first came to Byron Bay, I didn't see
Speaker 2: it as a beautiful place it is now. I saw
Speaker 2: it was a really fucking boring place that like weird
Speaker 2: people went and stuff. I was. It was my perception
Speaker 2: of it because I was so I was so like,
Speaker 2: you know, yeah, you know, in the city of Melbourne.
Speaker 2: I was so like you know, like I MESSI into
Speaker 2: that lifestyle and stuff and and mate, look, eventually I
Speaker 2: stayed there long enough that made that that place. Something
Speaker 2: happens in that place, man, Like you know, even today
Speaker 2: it's it's not my little spiritual home. And every time
Speaker 2: a lot sort of like apploads on me, I always
Speaker 2: end up going back there. And Mate, just over time,
Speaker 2: just over that like six month period made something shifted
Speaker 2: him here, you know. And a friend of mine who
Speaker 2: who I met up there, he ended up being a
Speaker 2: training partner of mine, you know, and he went through
Speaker 2: that buttery program, you know, and he stayed up there
Speaker 2: after that. And he said, Mate, look, just won't you
Speaker 2: just go for five weeks? You know? And if after
Speaker 2: five yeah, but he's going in after five weeks. If
Speaker 2: you don't want to go, you call me, I'll pick
Speaker 2: you up. I'll take you the airport. You can go
Speaker 2: back down in Melbourne. And Mate, I respected him enough
Speaker 2: to you know, I thought, yeah, I can do five weeks,
Speaker 2: you know, Like you know, I was clean, I was sober,
Speaker 2: wasn't hanging out, so I thought, why not, you know,
Speaker 2: And you know, I think he knew that I needed
Speaker 2: five weeks there to be able to like to be
Speaker 2: able to like, you know, make an informed decision, because
Speaker 2: I mean I went there and I had people throwing
Speaker 2: me under the bus but not doing my jobs, and like, yeah,
Speaker 2: in my head, I thought I was just a bunch
Speaker 2: of fucking dogs. You know, I fuck this, I'm not
Speaker 2: staying here and just winges and like you know. But
Speaker 2: like after five weeks, like you know, I had this
Speaker 2: realization because I already had a son at that stage,
Speaker 2: you know, I know my son was you know, three
Speaker 2: or four years old. How old were you? I was
Speaker 2: twenty when he was born, twenty one when he was born.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you got to kick with you with the
Speaker 1: lady or no, no.
Speaker 2: Were Yeah, look we're only lasted when when he was born,
Speaker 2: like wh only lasted about a year year and a half.
Speaker 2: And the only reason we have to probably go that
Speaker 2: year and a half was because you know, she'd been
Speaker 2: pregnant with him, you know, like we were, you know,
Speaker 2: we were fuck will never go three other at all,
Speaker 2: you know, you know. But when I was at when
Speaker 2: I was at the rehabit, I knew I had a kid.
Speaker 2: I had to say that realization. It was about four
Speaker 2: or five weeks in you know, I thought, Okay, well
Speaker 2: that's that's my time that I promise you know this
Speaker 2: this guy you know, you know, but like I've got
Speaker 2: a maybe I could do something better with my life,
Speaker 2: just maybe, you know, maybe maybe there's fucking something else
Speaker 2: I can do.
Speaker 1: You know, were you working, like where was the money?
Speaker 1: Not when you're in the program, but where were you
Speaker 1: making your money from?
Speaker 2: All that was in Melbourne? Yeah, in Melbourne I ended
Speaker 2: up working as like a pave and a block layer,
Speaker 2: and they were on all the the you know, on
Speaker 2: the Union sides and EBA rates, and I was mad.
Speaker 2: I was making really good money as a really young kid,
Speaker 2: you know when I say young kid, like as a
Speaker 2: twenty twenty one year old, twenty two year old getting
Speaker 2: an adults wage and yeah, yeah yeah, from working in
Speaker 2: sicily from like in one hundred and fifty bucks to
Speaker 2: you know, bringing home to grand a week, you know,
Speaker 2: was that going to drug store? Yeah, all of it, yeah,
Speaker 2: all of it back then, Like you know, I don't
Speaker 2: really nice apartment. I was renting and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: But back then rent was only like twenty fifty or
Speaker 2: three hundred bucks a week, you know, you know, and
Speaker 2: like I was on my own, so like, you know,
Speaker 2: I wouldn't even cook. I had to eat out every day.
Speaker 2: You know. My outgoings were about five hundred and six
Speaker 2: hundred bucks a week, and then every other cent went
Speaker 2: to you know, went to backo on drugs. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: When did you get into your fitness side of things?
Speaker 2: Probably twenty twenty twenty one, you know, twenty one, I
Speaker 2: mean like yeah, I mean I had little, little little
Speaker 2: moments or you know, all three, you know, but like yeah,
Speaker 2: twenty I had my first five at twenty one, you know,
Speaker 2: came from it. At twenty you got got into boxing. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: it was a boxing Yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: It doesn't sort of quate the type of training you
Speaker 1: need to box with putting shit in your body, like yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, how did you how did you juggle those?
Speaker 1: Because they're sort of polar opposite.
Speaker 2: Well man, not well, And that's probably reflected on my
Speaker 2: boxing career as well. Like you know, like I just
Speaker 2: you know, like I could fight, you know, and I'd
Speaker 2: be willing to fight and stuff like that. You know,
Speaker 2: So like you, I had a natural bit of aggression.
Speaker 2: You had enough ticker and balls to be able to like,
Speaker 2: you know, if I hold your hands hold my hands
Speaker 2: up mixed with people and stuff. But man, like you know,
Speaker 2: you know, you know, if I was training or fighting
Speaker 2: an eight round fight and stuff like that, you know,
Speaker 2: like you know, there the the you know, the my
Speaker 2: lastle factors would come back for me. You know, you
Speaker 2: know I feel a bit tight around my last fight.
Speaker 2: That is probably my most important fight to my last fight,
Speaker 2: like I trained for it in rehab and heroin overdose.
Speaker 2: Like before I went around where I couldn't I couldn't
Speaker 2: walk for two weeks, you know, and like you know,
Speaker 2: like I got myself fucking to a stage where I
Speaker 2: came out of rehab to two weeks sparring out of rehab,
Speaker 2: and then I jumped in and had a fight. And
Speaker 2: you know I went in there after after thirty seconds
Speaker 2: because I was smoking. I was smoking for thirty cigarettes
Speaker 2: a day, and reality, my whole body went all lactic
Speaker 2: and stuff. You know when I when I walked out
Speaker 2: a five, and though like I lost, and and I
Speaker 2: lost against someone you know, like a tough, a tough journeyman.
Speaker 2: You know that I knew it was going to press me.
Speaker 2: I had to be at my fucking best at and
Speaker 2: you hadn't put in no. I mean I put in
Speaker 2: as best I could, you know, But there was another
Speaker 2: there's another realization. My last old factors fucking just got something.
Speaker 2: I started to because this this is one that this
Speaker 2: is this is an experience that I had through my
Speaker 2: boxing that was real pivotal for the rest of my life.
Speaker 2: Like I had, I was sparring Barry Hall for his
Speaker 2: for his fight against Paul Gallant, you know, and and
Speaker 2: Barry Hall's trainer and the promoters and stuff like that. I said,
Speaker 2: if you, if you, if you're willing to spa and
Speaker 2: for his fight and stuff like, we'll get you on
Speaker 2: the undergard. I was like, yeah, beautiful, Like you know
Speaker 2: I was, I was looking to sort of get fit,
Speaker 2: you don't have a fight, and you know, it was
Speaker 2: a good as a fucking beautiful opportunity, beautiful venue and stuff.
Speaker 2: So I thought, yeah, well, you know, why not. And
Speaker 2: then a couple I think it was about a week
Speaker 2: a week before that fight, I got offered an Australasian
Speaker 2: title shot in New Zealand if I'd won that fight,
Speaker 2: you know, and uh in Itzona. It was only a
Speaker 2: few weeks after the fight I had, you know, and
Speaker 2: and I was like fuck you because in my head,
Speaker 2: like when I finished a fight, I want to bend after,
Speaker 2: you know. That was my reward system, you know. And
Speaker 2: and I was married at a time, and uh and
Speaker 2: I won that fight on the undercart of the Paul
Speaker 2: Gallan Barry Hall fight. And my wife, my then wife,
Speaker 2: she asked me, she's going, what are you going to
Speaker 2: do because we had plans to go have a few
Speaker 2: drinks and around. You won that fight, but you got
Speaker 2: another shot in two weeks time, two weeks time, and
Speaker 2: she said, what are you going to do? You're gonna
Speaker 2: You're want to drink. You know, you have a couple
Speaker 2: of dreams, like yeah, we'll just go after a couple,
Speaker 2: you know. And uh so we did, and you know,
Speaker 2: we gotta, we've gotta. We've got a bag of coke.
Speaker 2: And I finished the bag. And this was in Melbourne's
Speaker 2: at Margaret Cordreina in Melbourne, some miles stomping grounds, you know.
Speaker 2: And then I went out, Man, I've got an eight ball.
Speaker 2: I found a couple of fits and you know, and
Speaker 2: and I went back and I put an eight ball
Speaker 2: of coke in my arm. After not fucking one hundred
Speaker 2: and fifty needle marks in my fucking ar because coke
Speaker 2: on your last you know, fifteen minutes, you know, and
Speaker 2: I had it through. I just kept on fucking booting
Speaker 2: up my arm. I remember my wife came out of
Speaker 2: the room like six hours later after a sleep, and
Speaker 2: she looked me out. I was fucking leaning over the
Speaker 2: fridge and she's just going She wasn't upset, like, she
Speaker 2: wasn't angry, like she's just just again disappointed. She's not
Speaker 2: even disappointed, She's just like, what the fuck are you doing? Like,
Speaker 2: you know, what what what is wrong with you? You know?
Speaker 2: I mean I look, I was just like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: who am I? What am I doing? And anyway, so
Speaker 2: I still took the fight over in New Zealand. But
Speaker 2: I remember I remember warming up for that fight. It
Speaker 2: was an Australasian title shot. You know, it was against
Speaker 2: a tough New Zealand Like I knew, I knew I
Speaker 2: had to be my very best, and I was so
Speaker 2: fucking disappointed in myself and I'm warming up for the
Speaker 2: fight and just thinking, fuck, you really let yourself down.
Speaker 2: You know, it's this sabotaging behavior I have my whole
Speaker 2: fucking life, you know, Yeah, and I made them work
Speaker 2: for you know, I think it was like three or
Speaker 2: four rounds before it got stopped, you know, but I
Speaker 2: made them work, and like you know, it was you know,
Speaker 2: I was competitive in that fight, and I thought to myself, Fuck,
Speaker 2: you know, you fucked that up for yourself. You know
Speaker 2: you could have won that fucking fight. And you know
Speaker 2: you fucked that up for yourself. And like, you know,
Speaker 2: I thought, Okay, that's happened. Now, I'll chalk that up
Speaker 2: as a as a learning experience, but never again in life.
Speaker 2: And I'm gonna I want to sabotage that stuff, okay.
Speaker 1: And I take what you're saying there. It's a metaphor
Speaker 1: for life and something that you can learn. And I
Speaker 1: think I get into a bit of trouble on eye
Speaker 1: catch killers because I love talking boxing stories, but it's
Speaker 1: just it's fascinating. But I think it is so many
Speaker 1: valuable life lessons to learn because you can't cheat it
Speaker 1: in the in the boxing ring. If you've taken shortcuts,
Speaker 1: you're going to get found out in the boxing ring.
Speaker 1: And if you could have that realization in life, we're
Speaker 1: not just looking at boxing, We're looking.
Speaker 2: At the way you approach your life.
Speaker 1: Like if you're taking the shortcuts and you're not fully committing,
Speaker 1: you're going to be found out. And that's is that
Speaker 1: the lesson that yeah you got in that situation.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah you'll be fair found out. In the boxing ring,
Speaker 2: you get found out. But like you know, in the
Speaker 2: rest of life, you know, you just don't. You just
Speaker 2: don't get to experienced life that well. You know, maybe
Speaker 2: if you're going to start a business in the second
Speaker 2: it gets a little bit harder you back off. Men, know,
Speaker 2: you spend all your money on like you know, the
Speaker 2: business has failed, you know, and every business that I've
Speaker 2: ever had has only done well after that. A little
Speaker 2: bit of pressure that you feel or you know, if
Speaker 2: you jump into a relationship and you have one foot
Speaker 2: in and one foot out in that way, if it
Speaker 2: doesn't you know, you know, you're the first of argument.
Speaker 2: You're just like, oh fuck there, somehow I never really
Speaker 2: loved her anyway or whatever. You all you do was
Speaker 2: robbing yourself of like, you know, a good experience.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I see what you're saying there with a relationship
Speaker 1: that you're not giving it a real go. But if
Speaker 1: you don't fully commit, you ah, well it just it
Speaker 1: didn't work out because you haven't haven't committed to it.
Speaker 1: But yeah, in the same same with with business. So
Speaker 1: all these these are lessons lessons in life. So for
Speaker 1: the naysayers on eye catch killers that we talk about
Speaker 1: boxing all the time, that's because there are some some
Speaker 1: valuable lessons to learn. So when you when you see that,
Speaker 1: do you you would have been disappointed at yourself? That
Speaker 1: was that was a chance to progressing something you're obviously
Speaker 1: passionate about.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean, look, I mean boxing for me,
Speaker 2: I mean that would have been my limit. You know,
Speaker 2: if if I had won Australian title, on Australasian title,
Speaker 2: you know, I would have been wrapped. You know that
Speaker 2: that was my like you know, like I want to
Speaker 2: stay titled. I was happy with that, but like I
Speaker 2: wanted to I would have loved to win a national
Speaker 2: or an Australasian title. That would have been, you know,
Speaker 2: something I would have thought I've really overachieved yet. That
Speaker 2: would have been you know great, you know, but my
Speaker 2: boxing for me, I trained myself pretty much or you know,
Speaker 2: you know, my last few amateur fights and pretty much
Speaker 2: all my profiles except for one. For me, it was
Speaker 2: it was just this fucking escape from myself.
Speaker 1: You know, it make you feel better about yourself, like
Speaker 1: doing doing something where you're trying to take some pride
Speaker 1: in in what you're doing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it wasn't even it wasn't even so much the
Speaker 2: external stuff. But I think, yeah, I think it was
Speaker 2: nice to get the pats on the back from people.
Speaker 2: I think it was, you know, But for me, I
Speaker 2: was so tortured mentally. I didn't realize this at the time,
Speaker 2: you know, like that, And the only time I wasn't
Speaker 2: dreading the past or fearful of the future was you know,
Speaker 2: when I was fucking boxing, you know, because when someone's
Speaker 2: in front of you trying to hit you, you know,
Speaker 2: like you're not focusing on all the all the all
Speaker 2: the shameful things I've done in the past, or all
Speaker 2: my doubts are having myself in the future and stuff
Speaker 2: like that. You know, you're just that. And then and
Speaker 2: after you exert that much energy and you walk out
Speaker 2: the ring, you get big dopamine rush for an hour
Speaker 2: or two and I st you know, three hours or
Speaker 2: not about not thinking about me and my ship and
Speaker 2: my problems. Mate. Just darkness would come back over me
Speaker 2: after that you know, like as I never I never
Speaker 2: understood myself. I never knew how to look at myself.
Speaker 2: I never took ownership of anything. I didn't know how
Speaker 2: to work through anything. And say, you know, for me,
Speaker 2: it was like a little reprieve from this fucking horrible
Speaker 2: state of fucking living that I was living in.
Speaker 1: There you touched on something like I and you made
Speaker 1: the point like you're not thinking about anything else if
Speaker 1: someone's hitting you in the head and you're thinking about
Speaker 1: trying to trying to avoid.
Speaker 2: It or return the shot.
Speaker 1: That helped me through doing a homicide detective as long
Speaker 1: as I was, And people go, well, what what do
Speaker 1: you do the relax And I go, well, I can
Speaker 1: forget about work at the moment I step into a
Speaker 1: ring and someone's trying to beat the shit out of me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not thinking.
Speaker 1: About the pressure of the work or the horrible things
Speaker 1: that I've seen at work. So I understand that that
Speaker 1: is a form of escapism.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's hard to explain that to people that
Speaker 2: don't get it. That's one of the reasons now, like
Speaker 2: I actually feel I should feel mentally in a much
Speaker 2: better place, and physically you feel like I'm a pretty
Speaker 2: good shape too. It's like, I don't feel like it's
Speaker 2: not that I couldn't fight now. I made the thought of, like,
Speaker 2: you know, the thought of me training really hard to
Speaker 2: hurt someone now, or like even you know I desire
Speaker 2: to be hit now, isn't there. I think that's because
Speaker 2: of like the fucking internal work I've done on myself. Man,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean? You know, like it was
Speaker 2: something I really needed back then. It's just not It's
Speaker 2: just not something that motivates me now. You know.
Speaker 1: In one of the one of the podcasts you did
Speaker 1: and some of the stuff I've read about you, you
Speaker 1: made a comment and I think I've captured it. But
Speaker 1: I'd like you to need to love yourself in order
Speaker 1: to heal. And you're talking about you're going the pain
Speaker 1: and the boxing ring gave you and escape from all
Speaker 1: the trauma and different stuff that you've been through. What
Speaker 1: what's your view on that? If I if I make
Speaker 1: the statement or pulling out stuff that you've said you
Speaker 1: need to love yourself to heal? What, what's what's that
Speaker 1: all about?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean, look, I just think we need to
Speaker 2: love ourselves full stop. And so what what what what
Speaker 2: I do. What I mean, what I aid to do
Speaker 2: with the rehab things now is to show people pathways
Speaker 2: to learn how to accept themselves and love themselves. But
Speaker 2: you know what I do outside the rehab too, I
Speaker 2: do like coaching and stuff I help you do, mentoring
Speaker 2: and stuff like that. And and I've got a process
Speaker 2: that I do with people, one that I've got taken
Speaker 2: through as well, which which shows us who we actually are,
Speaker 2: like you know, and you know, and who we are,
Speaker 2: you know, like outside of our ego, outside of all
Speaker 2: our labels and you know, and and learn to become
Speaker 2: okay with that, excepting that, and learn to love that,
Speaker 2: you know, you know, because if if we don't, if
Speaker 2: we don't accept ourselves, man, that just gets projected on
Speaker 2: the outside, and like you know, it affects our lives
Speaker 2: in a big way. You know.
Speaker 1: Do you get the sense that there's people that don't
Speaker 1: love themselves? Is self sabotage?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Mate? And I think if most people are really honest,
Speaker 2: you know, if you ask most people, do you actually
Speaker 2: love yourself or do you like yourself? Will accept yourself?
Speaker 2: If people are really honest, I reckon it'd be in
Speaker 2: the ninety percent of people would say they wouldn't, you know, like,
Speaker 2: you know, I think there's a real there's a real
Speaker 2: discord from from you know, people living as they are,
Speaker 2: you know, like you know, and and it can be
Speaker 2: seen by people sort of needing to be part of
Speaker 2: the masses and part of the trends and stuff like that,
Speaker 2: you know, like you know, and that's a that's a
Speaker 2: big sign of people just being disconnected from who they are,
Speaker 2: you know, like when we say to me about the
Speaker 2: tattoos and stuff like, like you know, yeah, you can
Speaker 2: have these these these negative connotations and stuff for that,
Speaker 2: you know, but like you know, like I'm okay with me,
Speaker 2: and like, you know, whatever decision I make for me
Speaker 2: is okay with me, and stuff like that. Whereas a
Speaker 2: lot of people if like a new new set of
Speaker 2: sneak is coming stuff like that, you know, like they
Speaker 2: need they need those or they need to they need
Speaker 2: to drive a certain car to feel a certain way,
Speaker 2: and they need to be seen at certain places with
Speaker 2: certain people and all that stuff, you know. And like
Speaker 2: in a and my validation's nice, Like it's nice. It's
Speaker 2: not like I don't like it, It's just I don't
Speaker 2: need it anymore. You know, and I feel like I
Speaker 2: feel like that's the that's a separator when you you know,
Speaker 2: I mean, I think there's two types of conflict. You know,
Speaker 2: there's a conflict. There's internal conflict an external conflict. We
Speaker 2: get to choose which one. Ninety percent of people have
Speaker 2: their internal conflict where they look for they look to
Speaker 2: be part of the crowd, but then they have to
Speaker 2: live with internal conflict that says you're fucking lying to yourself,
Speaker 2: your lying to everyone around you just so you can
Speaker 2: blend in. And then there's a peopleeple, like you know,
Speaker 2: there's a five to ten percent they have the external
Speaker 2: conflict where they do everything that they know they need
Speaker 2: to do for themselves, which is how I try to
Speaker 2: live today, and most of the time I do. But
Speaker 2: then you get the external conflict, you know, you get
Speaker 2: you get people calling you weird and people calling you
Speaker 2: like like what are you doing? Like you wake up
Speaker 2: at one thirty fucking weirdo? You're obsessed? Yeah you know, yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, yeah, yeah. I post really vulnerable open stuff
Speaker 2: about my life and my journey on my you know,
Speaker 2: on my socials and stuff, and I get people fucking
Speaker 2: saying whatever about it. Man, But like I don't give
Speaker 2: a fuck because like that's the external conflict. But internally,
Speaker 2: for the first time ever in my life, I've been
Speaker 2: okay with myself, you know, like for someone's running from
Speaker 2: himself his whole life and sticking needles in his fucking
Speaker 2: arms and stuff like that. You know, like, you know,
Speaker 2: that's that's that's the repercussions of me not living you know,
Speaker 2: not living in alignment to me. You know, so like
Speaker 2: I've got no choice see other other people's you know,
Speaker 2: the repercussions for other people not living as who they are.
Speaker 2: You know, they're not as big as mine. You know,
Speaker 2: I've got no choice, man, either either live and adopt
Speaker 2: this this lifestyle that I learned how to live through
Speaker 2: some incredible people that taught me how to live this way,
Speaker 2: or the alternative for me is really fucking bad. You know.
Speaker 1: Well you touched on stuff that and why you're talking.
Speaker 1: I'm sort of reflecting on the things in my life
Speaker 1: about that internal conflict or external conflict. And I was
Speaker 1: in the cops for a long long time. Now, that's
Speaker 1: an organization where you're meant to conform, and yeah, if
Speaker 1: you step out of line or stick your head up
Speaker 1: or whatever you tend to get dragged back into. This
Speaker 1: is how we do it in this organization. My yeah,
Speaker 1: as everyone knows that listens to the podcast, that my
Speaker 1: career ended in tears and controversy.
Speaker 2: Shit happens, I know.
Speaker 1: But I feel good within myself because I was been
Speaker 1: true to myself, Like there was aspects of when allegations
Speaker 1: were made at me, I could have taken the knee
Speaker 1: and said, I'm sorry, I've been suffering stress, I was working,
Speaker 1: blah blah blah, and I chose a different path. I've
Speaker 1: said bullshit. I own everything that I did and I'm
Speaker 1: not going to apologize for it now. Yeah, I was
Speaker 1: going for all the dilemmas in my mind, what's do
Speaker 1: you take the easy path? And the easier path would
Speaker 1: have been to show contrition and fall back into line.
Speaker 1: But I wouldn't have been true to myself. Now, I
Speaker 1: could have done it easier. I could have done it
Speaker 1: easier when the front page of the paper and you've
Speaker 1: got me standing there going I'd rather gave the jail
Speaker 1: than pay a fine. That's not a good strategy when
Speaker 1: you're about to go to court. But I looking back
Speaker 1: now and it's been four or five years. I'm so
Speaker 1: glad I've taken that path because I don't know if
Speaker 1: I could have lived with myself if if I wasn't
Speaker 1: being true to myself. So a lot of what you've
Speaker 1: touched on there, I think it's so important. And we're
Speaker 1: all going to be criticized. People aren't going to like you,
Speaker 1: people aren't going to like me. But if you're doing
Speaker 1: what you believe to be the right thing and it's
Speaker 1: your your journey, I think you've got to hold on the.
Speaker 2: Days, yeah, for sure. And the criticism doesn't sting when
Speaker 2: you're being good with yourself, you know, criticisms it's only
Speaker 2: really hurtful when you when you're needing the validation of
Speaker 2: other people, you know what I mean. So you know,
Speaker 2: like I said, you know, if I'm taking criticism personally today,
Speaker 2: like I know, I'm not, I'm not living the best
Speaker 2: as I can. I'm not I'm not honoring myself in
Speaker 2: some way, you know. So I'm much like you, you know,
Speaker 2: And and not only that, like you know, when people
Speaker 2: actually do live and do honor their truth and stuff
Speaker 2: like that, it's admirable. Like I found what you did
Speaker 2: was really admirable. I've got a huge amount of respect
Speaker 2: you for what you did. You know. Yeah, And I
Speaker 2: feel like with other people that have had similar experiences
Speaker 2: like you and I have had the people that sort
Speaker 2: of like regardless of like any sort of like external pressures,
Speaker 2: they just they just stand the truth and they you know,
Speaker 2: like I look at that shit and just it's that's
Speaker 2: fucking cool. That's that's that's.
Speaker 1: The people that I look up to, all the people
Speaker 1: that have been mentals or that have always walked their
Speaker 1: own path and stayed true to themselves. And I like
Speaker 1: to want of the people that have trained me to
Speaker 1: to do that. But yeah, it comes to the price.
Speaker 1: But yeah, when and someone once said to me, and
Speaker 1: I can't remember the exact quote, but yeah, the quality
Speaker 1: of life is often demonstrated by the quality of the
Speaker 1: people who criticize you. And yeah, I'm saying, like some
Speaker 1: of the people that attacked me, well, I couldn't give
Speaker 1: us stuff what they think about when it's all said
Speaker 1: and done. And that's that's not arrogance. That's not me
Speaker 1: going I'm better than you. It's just your opinion doesn't
Speaker 1: count in in my world. I don't value your opinion
Speaker 1: because I don't value you as a persona And yeah,
Speaker 1: you've got to balance that with sometimes where you criticize,
Speaker 1: it's justifiable, and that's if you're aware of the type
Speaker 1: of person you are. You've got to check yourself then
Speaker 1: and go, okay, well that's that's a fair, fair call. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: I'll pull my head in. But again, that's been true
Speaker 1: to yourself. You're trying to improve yourself, and I get
Speaker 1: the sense with your life and when we get into
Speaker 1: part two, we'll talk about what you're doing with hope
Speaker 1: and help and the way that you've turned your life around.
Speaker 1: But okay, you accept this life that I'm living, this ship.
Speaker 1: You use the boxing example. You know, I'm fighting for
Speaker 1: a title, but I've been putting shit in my body
Speaker 1: and it's not preparing for it properly. So yeah, you've
Speaker 1: got to have some acknowledgment. You've got to learn. And
Speaker 1: life is a journey, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah I understand, Yeah, I understand. Yeah, And that's exactly right.
Speaker 2: So you know I've got and I've got that perspective
Speaker 2: of life now, you know, like I'm never a victim. Now,
Speaker 2: you know, I take full responsibility for everything. So I'm
Speaker 2: I'm the common denominated in all my ship. You know,
Speaker 2: everything's happening for me, not to me. You know. So
Speaker 2: when when I'm going through something, you know, like I'm thinking,
Speaker 2: all's like, you know, I'm coming up against stuff. You know,
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, well, what am I meant to learn through this?
Speaker 2: You know, and that just just that perception of just
Speaker 2: just just just perceiving life that way, it just makes
Speaker 2: it a fucking journey, you know what I mean, like
Speaker 2: rather than this fucking struggle, you know, And it's been
Speaker 2: a it's been a complete life changing experiences.
Speaker 1: That you know, I get what you're saying, and I
Speaker 1: think it's a valuable, valuable comment there that you don't
Speaker 1: always see yourself as a victim. You go, Okay, why
Speaker 1: why did this happen? I see there the type of
Speaker 1: lessons that you've learned for sure.
Speaker 2: For sure. I mean it's hard to see when life
Speaker 2: doesn't go the way we predict the two you know,
Speaker 2: we plan it to or hope it goes. You know,
Speaker 2: we look at it as like unfortunate or like it's
Speaker 2: not this fucking blessing that it is, you know, like it.
Speaker 2: But you know, if you can actually sort of like
Speaker 2: if you spend a bit of time like ordering your
Speaker 2: life and reviewing your life and stuff, like you look
Speaker 2: back at all those moments that that when things didn't
Speaker 2: go the way you plan, it's because like fucking what
Speaker 2: really needed to happen ended up happening, you know. And
Speaker 2: I just feel like that. And that's the thing about
Speaker 2: slowing down for me now, you know, I always live
Speaker 2: life really fast paced, like fucking next thing, next thing,
Speaker 2: the next thing. When you actually slow down, you look
Speaker 2: at life, you just go, man like everything is just
Speaker 2: working out in this an incredible way. You know. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's got hardships, it's got challenges, it's got like heartbreaks,
Speaker 2: it's got all this stuff in it. Like you know,
Speaker 2: maybe you know, as humans, like we're we're like fucking
Speaker 2: pre programmed. I blame social media for this is a
Speaker 2: lot as well, pre programmed to like chase happiness and
Speaker 2: comfort and stuff like that, you know, because everyone's gloating
Speaker 2: about like this fucking life that they want everyone else
Speaker 2: to see them having and stuff. So we feel shame
Speaker 2: when we're not fucking feeling happy, you know, I mean,
Speaker 2: we're human beings. It's full array of fucking emotions. You
Speaker 2: know that you know, and we feel like if we're
Speaker 2: not happy, we've got to suppress it. So yeah, but
Speaker 2: the actuality is man. Part of the fucking human experience
Speaker 2: is to experience all of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, before you mentioned social media. Before social media,
Speaker 1: I used to always make the comment I can't judge
Speaker 1: on relationships. I've had some good ones, bad ones, and failings.
Speaker 2: But they happened to just gone through another one.
Speaker 1: But I would always laugh, not laugh, but I make
Speaker 1: the comments of people close to me. Yeah, the couples
Speaker 1: that you see in the first six months saying how
Speaker 1: much they love each other, and that's just beautiful, beautiful, beautiful.
Speaker 1: It's like pre social media days, look how happy we are.
Speaker 1: And you could almost go, that's going to fail trying
Speaker 1: to present this persona that life's perfect and you think
Speaker 1: it can't be that perfect because life is not that perfect.
Speaker 1: So that that takes it takes them down the notch.
Speaker 1: But look, let's let's leave it, leave it there for
Speaker 1: part one. When we get back, I want you to
Speaker 1: take us on the journey that how you break away
Speaker 1: from your addiction and then the impressive work that you're
Speaker 1: doing it. I hope in health rehabilitation, because I think
Speaker 1: that's yeah, and this is a crime podcast. The amount
Speaker 1: of addictions and that impact on crime, it's yeah, it's
Speaker 1: a one way straight. When I look at your life,
Speaker 1: if we stop the podcast here and we didn't, I
Speaker 1: didn't know what you did in the future. I got
Speaker 1: to say all the warning signs I wouldn't put on
Speaker 1: not a gambling man, but if I did gamble, I
Speaker 1: wouldn't have put money on you getting through without going
Speaker 1: to prison or dying.
Speaker 2: That seemed to be the trek creep that your life
Speaker 2: was on. But I've got close to both of them.
Speaker 2: I'm very close to both of them.
Speaker 1: Okay, we'll talk about that when we get back, and
Speaker 1: what you're doing with hope and health.
Speaker 2: Sure, jeez, awesome. Thank you. Never k