1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: Heads up that this episode contains discussions of sexual abuse 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: and suicide. From the newsroom are newsed do com Today. 3 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: Hi there, I'm Andrew Bucklow. Australians have been horrified in 4 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: recent months by allegations of childcare workers sexually abusing the 5 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: very children they were paid to protect. Now news dot 6 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: com dot a U is lifting the lid on another man. 7 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: Arguably the country's worst ever child sex offender. David Neil Tuck, 8 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:33,199 Speaker 1: worked in childcare centers across New South Wales. Parents trusted him, 9 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: children were left in his care, but behind that trust 10 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: was a predator, one who for years escaped accountability. Today 11 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:43,239 Speaker 1: we speak with the journalists who helped expose Tuck's long 12 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: hit and abuse, and we hear from two survivors who 13 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: are stepping forward to tell their stories. Joining me now 14 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: is Nina Fanell, a Walkley Award winning freelance journalist who's 15 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: written an incredible piece for use dot com dot U 16 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: unmasking one of Australia's most prolific child sexual abuses. Nina, 17 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: this guy's name is David Neil Tuck. What can you 18 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: tell us about him? 19 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 2: Well, the first thing to say about David Neil Tuck 20 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 2: is that this week is the first time we're actually 21 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 2: learning this individual's name. Now he is one of Australia's 22 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 2: worst sex offenders. He ran a childcare center in Bateman's 23 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 2: Bay in New South Wales. It's about three hours south 24 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 2: of Sydney, and it's believed that he has sexually abused 25 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 2: up to and as many as fifty five children in 26 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 2: Bateman's Bay alone. Now, across his career, he didn't only 27 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:33,320 Speaker 2: run a childcare service, and that was actually an overnight 28 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 2: childcare service, which I'd never heard of. But across his 29 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:40,759 Speaker 2: career he also worked in places like a children's hospital, 30 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 2: a juvenile detention center. He was a school bus driver, 31 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 2: he was a gymnastics teacher at two YMCAs, and he 32 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 2: also worked with disabled children, both intellectually and physically disabled children. 33 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 2: So this is a man who has had unbelievable levels 34 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 2: of access to children, and yet at the time that 35 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 2: he was licensed to run a family day care center, 36 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:10,119 Speaker 2: he'd already faced ten chargers of child sexual abuse. 37 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: That was the bit that really shocked me the most, 38 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: the fact that this guy, when he was allowed to 39 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 1: open a childcare center, had already faced charges of sexually 40 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 1: assaulting children. How on Earth is that possible? 41 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 2: Nina, Well, I mean, I think that's an excellent question 42 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:27,920 Speaker 2: to be putting to the Urubadella Shire Council and I 43 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 2: have and they have not come back with an answer. 44 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 2: Their answer is, well, we cannot comment on this because 45 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 2: legal proceedings are afoot. But the reality is is that 46 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 2: they did license him, and when they licensed him, he 47 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 2: had those ten charges against his name. Now I've been 48 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,359 Speaker 2: able to find out through freedom of information that he 49 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 2: was able to successfully pass a police record check when 50 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 2: they licensed him, So I believe they have licensed him 51 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 2: because of that police record check being passed. But that 52 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 2: raises even bigger questions for me about well, how reliable 53 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 2: are these checks and what is going on when an 54 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:09,639 Speaker 2: individual can have that many charges and can be licensed 55 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:13,959 Speaker 2: by a council to not only be running this family 56 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 2: daycare service, but to be having children sleep overnight in 57 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 2: his premises. And one of the things I found most 58 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 2: disturbing when I was researching this story is that there 59 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 2: were multiple complaints even after the charges. There were multiple 60 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:34,359 Speaker 2: complaints coming out from children who were staying in these premises, 61 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 2: and yet they weren't being adequately followed up on. 62 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: Well, you spoke to two women for your article, Haley 63 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: and LJ, who were abused by David Neil Tuck at 64 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: this childcare center in the mid to late nineties. 65 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 3: I can remember the property like I was there yesterday. 66 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 3: So you would drive down this dirt road and it 67 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 3: was quite windy, and you would drive over a bridge 68 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 3: and there would be a dam, and then you would 69 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 3: drive in and there was a cottage and you would 70 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 3: walk into the house and there would be a very 71 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 3: big backyard, lots of toys, TV couches and two bedrooms. 72 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 3: We were really told it was going to be this safe, 73 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 3: fun place with lots of other kids, go on camping, 74 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 3: do lots of outside activities, have access to things we 75 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 3: wouldn't normally have access to coming from a low socioeconomic background. 76 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 4: This family daircare provided sleepover services, which was essentially a 77 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 4: big room, had a couple monk beds. Sometimes there were 78 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 4: more children than beds. 79 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 2: To the outside world. David tuximed like just another was 80 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 2: he bloke, He. 81 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 3: Was very tall, he had gray hair. I would have 82 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 3: considered him now like I guess, a bit of a boken, 83 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 3: you know, like shorts, a wife beater. He smoked cigarettes, 84 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 3: he drunk Jim Beam straight out of the glass. Very personable, 85 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 3: very likable. 86 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: David turned out to be an absolute monster. Nina, can 87 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 1: you just share some of the stories that those two 88 00:04:57,640 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: women told you? 89 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 2: Look sadly bucky. Most of the stories I actually can't 90 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 2: share because they are far too graphic. The majority of 91 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 2: what I heard was actually so shocking and so appalling 92 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 2: that it would be deemed absolutely too graphic to be 93 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 2: able to publish or to share. But I think what's 94 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 2: important for parents and for adults to take away from 95 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 2: this is the types of tactics that he would use 96 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 2: to groom children, as well as the sort of things 97 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 2: that he put in place to enable his offending to 98 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:35,679 Speaker 2: keep going without detection. So in terms of grooming the children, 99 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 2: he would tell them very early on how much he 100 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 2: loved them, that they were his favorite child. He spent 101 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 2: a lot of time really getting to understand children's vulnerabilities, 102 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 2: what their weaknesses were, and really exploiting that. He also 103 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 2: had bizarre rules. So one of the rules for his 104 00:05:56,480 --> 00:06:00,919 Speaker 2: daycare or overnight service was that parents needed to knock 105 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 2: and wait before entering inside, though he had an open 106 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,359 Speaker 2: door policy when it came to the bathroom, and so 107 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 2: all children were expected to use the toilet in full 108 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 2: sight of him. And through this gradual erosion of boundaries, 109 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 2: he was then able to manipulate and exploit the children, 110 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 2: and you know, horrific levels of sexual violence took place. 111 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 4: You could only wear pants or underwear to bed, but 112 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 4: you weren't allowed to wear both. 113 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 3: Like the preference was to wear like a ninety with 114 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:34,359 Speaker 3: no underwear, and we were told it was because our 115 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 3: body needed to breathe. That was often dropped off in 116 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 3: the morning, and then he would take us to school. 117 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 3: He'd be like, oh, you seem really sick, so you 118 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 3: have to stay home. And then their abuse would increase 119 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,039 Speaker 3: in those moments, even though there were other children present 120 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 3: at the same time. They were often just little kids. 121 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 4: He had a thing where he would choose a child 122 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 4: to sleep in his bed each night. You first start 123 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 4: attending the daycare, you think, oh, it's special, that's lucky, 124 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 4: you know, until you get chosen the first time. 125 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: Nina. Did any of David's victims speak up at the time, Well, they. 126 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 2: Did, actually, numerous of his victims did speak up through 127 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 2: multiple different channels as well, through making complaints to police 128 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 2: as well as complaints to the counsel. And one of 129 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 2: the things that I found really alarming reading through some 130 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 2: of the correspondents that we got through freedom of information 131 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 2: was that full investigation after a couple of different girls 132 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 2: came forward reporting sexual abuse, and one of those investigations 133 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 2: did find that he was absolutely having children sleep in 134 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 2: the same bed with him at night, but that was 135 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 2: dismissed as non sexual and very little little was done 136 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 2: in response to that, just warning letter to him telling 137 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 2: him that it was frowned upon practice. But even after that, 138 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 2: they didn't come out and ask children basic questions like 139 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 2: where are you sleeping at night or you know, things 140 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 2: that might have started the conversation. There was also no 141 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 2: evidence that I could find that they ever bothered to 142 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 2: do a nighttime check of the facility. They would do 143 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 2: occasional day time checks, but this guy was operating in 144 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 2: playing sight. And that's the thing that I also find 145 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 2: really alarming, is that it wasn't that nobody knew. I mean, 146 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 2: children were coming forward consistently with very similar stories, and 147 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 2: yet authorities were just dropping the ball entirely. 148 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: So what happened to David neil Tuck then. 149 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 2: Well, by two thousand and one. He'd been facing allegations 150 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 2: spanning three decades by then, and more than a dozen 151 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 2: children had come forward by that stage, and finally, finally, 152 00:08:55,520 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 2: in July two thousand and one, charges were laid, just 153 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 2: were laid on a Friday, and then over the weekend 154 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 2: a further eight or nine children came forward with yet 155 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 2: more allegations and reports to police's sexual abuse. And then 156 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 2: on the Monday, he took his own life. His body 157 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 2: was found and at that point, from the moment that 158 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:19,559 Speaker 2: his body was found, the police then shut down the 159 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 2: investigation entirely, literally canceling interviews that they had scheduled with 160 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 2: children for that afternoon, and that was it. It was 161 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 2: just a matter of we're going to shut up shop. 162 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 2: Those children were then left to fend for themselves. There 163 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 2: was no further investigation. His name was never published in 164 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 2: the media. In fact, there were active blocks to stop 165 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 2: publication of his name and his identity, and that had 166 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:50,200 Speaker 2: a huge and profound effect on all of those victims 167 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 2: in the community, because in that moment after his death, 168 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,679 Speaker 2: it could have been a moment when there was investigation 169 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 2: and healing, but instead it was essentially swept under the carpet. 170 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 2: One of the reasons why Hailey and LJ are speaking 171 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 2: up this week the two survivors is because they firmly 172 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 2: believe that there may be dozens and dozens of other 173 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 2: David Tuck survivors around the country who have never even 174 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 2: learned that he has died, and who are unaware that 175 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 2: there are other survivors out there and that there is 176 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 2: help and support available. So they've now identified thirty survivors 177 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 2: that they've made contact with just from the Bateman's Bay 178 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 2: region alone. But this is a guy who lived and 179 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 2: worked across Sydney, Canberra, Bateman's Bay. He's known to have 180 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 2: spent time in Victoria, Queensland, South Australia, and as I 181 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 2: mentioned before, he's worked in so many different jobs and 182 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 2: the one common theme of all those jobs is that 183 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 2: they gave him access to children. 184 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 1: As Nina mentioned, the media were banned from naming David 185 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: neil Tak and listing his crimes after his death. We're 186 00:10:55,800 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 1: going to find out why. In just a moment welcome 187 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: back on chatting to journalist Nina Foranell, you mentioned that 188 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: the media were banned from writing about David Neiltuk and 189 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: his crimes after he died. In two thousand and one, 190 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 1: a local reporter who you spoke to for your story 191 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: was keen to write about it. 192 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 5: At the start, we just had a story of a 193 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 5: body that had been found in a car at Lake Tabowie, 194 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 5: and we got a tip off that the guy who 195 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 5: had killed himself had been charged with a number of 196 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 5: child sex offenses. But within a really short space of 197 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 5: time that number just kept growing. 198 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 2: This is Chris Graham, the local newspaper editor at the time. 199 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 2: He caught wind of the story and wanted to name Tuck, 200 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 2: but authorities blocked him. 201 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 5: We were pursuing the story of a man who had 202 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 5: sexually abused children, and we were being told that we 203 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 5: couldn't report, in my view, enough detail to alert people 204 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 5: within the region of who the man was, where he worked, 205 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 5: and who what children were at risk of being abused. 206 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 5: My argument to the government was, if we don't make every. 207 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 6: Effort to contact or at least notify Chamming members that 208 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 6: their children may have been exposed to a serial predator, 209 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 6: how those parents of us to know that their children 210 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:18,959 Speaker 6: may have been harmed by this guy. I mean, it's 211 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 6: not always obvious, and it's. 212 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 5: A small town, and this guy was in a prominent 213 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 5: position within a small town. I wish I'd just told 214 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 5: everybody David Tuck did this, and if your children went 215 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 5: to this childcare center, there's a reasonable likelihood that they 216 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 5: were solved by this man. 217 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:38,959 Speaker 2: But the newspaper was threatened with legal action for wanting 218 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,679 Speaker 2: to name Tuck, and Chris Graham could have faced jail. 219 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 5: He engineered unfed at access to hundreds of helpless children, 220 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:49,719 Speaker 5: and he was licensed. 221 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 6: To do it by the government. 222 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 1: So, Nina, it was the government blocking this journalist from 223 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: publicizing his name was and why were they blocking him? 224 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean, look, it's really interesting because ordinarily, if 225 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,719 Speaker 2: a person dies and they stand accused of these crimes, 226 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 2: it's actually quite easy to publish their name at that 227 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 2: point in time because issues around defamation disappear because you 228 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 2: can't defame a dead person. And the other thing is 229 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 2: that there's no longer any concern about jeopardizing an upcoming 230 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 2: trial because there will be no trial. So if anything, 231 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 2: it's actually ordinarily very easy to actually publish at that 232 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 2: point in time. And remember this man was facing charges, 233 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 2: so they should have been able to publish regardless. The 234 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 2: government argued that because in New South Wales, and elsewhere 235 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 2: around Australia, there is an automatic ban on naming a 236 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 2: victim or a complainant as they're referred to the violence. 237 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 2: They argued that by a publishing in his name, that 238 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 2: could lead to the identification of his victims, and therefore 239 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 2: they claimed that it was in the victim's interest not 240 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 2: to publish his name. Now. The journalists at the time 241 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 2: Chris Graham didn't believe that. He thinks that the government 242 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 2: was abusing that rule around protecting children to benefit themselves 243 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 2: to essentially be able to keep this matter quiet. I 244 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 2: firmly agree with that, and it's and very very sadly 245 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 2: Chris Graham. What he predicted to the government and what 246 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 2: he told the government is exactly what has happened. He 247 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 2: said to them, If we do not name this man now, 248 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 2: children who are out there who have been harmed by 249 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 2: him will miss out on the vital opportunity to be 250 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 2: wrapped with support. It also puts it on their shoulders 251 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 2: to have to come forward and convince the adult caregivers 252 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 2: in their lives of what they've been through with absolutely 253 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 2: no guarantee or no certainty that they're going to be 254 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 2: believed or how that adult figure is going to respond 255 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 2: to them. So, you know, had his name been published 256 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 2: back then then, I think it would have made it 257 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 2: a lot easier for children to be able to tell 258 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 2: their parents or caregivers what they've been through in the 259 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 2: assurance and the knowledge that they would likely be believed. Instead, 260 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 2: they were forced to go through that process unsupported, isolated 261 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 2: and terrified. And you know, as el Jo and Haley 262 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 2: keep saying to me, survivors have tuck out there may 263 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 2: not even realize he's dead. And that's the tragedy of 264 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 2: this situation is it's not as though the government weren't 265 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 2: warned of the ramifications of not naming him. They absolutely were, 266 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 2: and they still proceeded. And I just think, you know, 267 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 2: this is one of those stories that these women have 268 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 2: been waiting twenty five years to tell their story, and 269 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 2: it's taken an enormous amount of courage for them to 270 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 2: do so now. And I think Australia should really stand 271 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 2: behind them and sign their petition and do all we 272 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,119 Speaker 2: can to support them. But also we need to realize 273 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 2: that there are many, many, many other survivors out there 274 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 2: just like them, and that their story serves as a 275 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 2: cautionary tale. For all governments, all decision makers and people 276 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 2: in power of how not to handle a situation like this. 277 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 1: You mentioned a petition there. Tell us more about that 278 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: and where can people sign it? 279 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 2: Yeah? Sure, So the petition is called keep Kids Safe. 280 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 2: It's on change dot org. You can find it through 281 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 2: news dot com dot Au. It's spearheaded by Haley and 282 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 2: LJ who are really using their story to call for 283 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 2: reforms today. They're seeking to overhaul the Working with Children 284 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 2: chech scheme. At the moment in Australia right now, Bucky, 285 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 2: there's about a million of fuzzy families have at least 286 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 2: one child in childcare, and every day in this country 287 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 2: there is at least one report of sexual misconduct coming 288 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:06,400 Speaker 2: out of an early childcare center. I mean, it's horrific statistics. Now, 289 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 2: the Working with Children check scheme is it's got so 290 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 2: many loopholes that offenders can exploit it. Iman. One of 291 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 2: the problems with it is that there's a different scheme 292 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 2: in every state and territory, and there's a lack of 293 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:23,120 Speaker 2: information sharing between the jurisdictions, so offenders can easily move 294 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 2: between states and territories. And also, once you've got to 295 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 2: working with Children Check. It lasts for five years, there's 296 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 2: no interim measures or checks, so it can actually lull 297 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:36,439 Speaker 2: parents into a false sense of security. The other big 298 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 2: problem with it is that it actually requires that someone 299 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 2: has already been charged or detected in order to sail 300 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 2: the Working with Children check. So if there are offenders 301 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 2: out there operating who haven't been detected yet, they can 302 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 2: easily get a Working with Children Check. And there's no 303 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 2: training or anything that you have in it. It's harder 304 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 2: to get a responsible service of Alcohol license than it 305 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 2: is to get a Working with Children check with an 306 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 2: a say you have to do some training, you don't 307 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 2: have to do anything like that to get Working with 308 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 2: Children check. So there's been calls for some time now 309 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 2: by experts, by survivors, and by advocates as well as 310 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 2: academics to say this scheme is not working. We know 311 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 2: it's not fit for purpose, we know it's not keeping 312 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:22,880 Speaker 2: children safe. You know, more than five point eight million 313 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 2: Aussies currently have a Working with Children Check, and very sadly, 314 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:31,880 Speaker 2: I'm often reporting stories of cases where a child has 315 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 2: been abused and the person who abused them had an 316 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 2: active Working with Children check at that time. So l 317 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 2: j and Haley are calling for an overhaul to that system. 318 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:46,639 Speaker 2: And what they're calling for is based on recommendations by experts, 319 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 2: academics and advocates as well. So we want all Australians 320 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 2: to stand with them. Get on sign the petition really 321 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:56,959 Speaker 2: makes some noise, so the Australian government wakes up and 322 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 2: realizes that this is an issue we need to you know, 323 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:02,880 Speaker 2: we need to absolve this issue yesterday. We don't have 324 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:04,160 Speaker 2: time to waste on this. 325 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 1: Well, I'll be signing that petition today at news dot 326 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 1: com dot yu Nina. It's a shocking story. It's an 327 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: important story. Thank you so much for sharing it with 328 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: us today. 329 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 2: My pleasure. 330 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: If you or someone you know is experiencing sexual abuse, 331 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:20,200 Speaker 1: you can call the National Sexual Assault Domestic Violence Counseling 332 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: Services twenty four hour helpline. The number is one eight hundred, 333 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: respect or right. Thank you so much for listening. I'll 334 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: chat to you again tomorrow. Follow us, subscribe to from 335 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 1: the newsroom wherever you get your podcasts.