WEBVTT - Tim Minchin thinks we’re doing ambition all wrong 0:00:06.840 --> 0:00:09.959 Hello, and welcome to Something to Talk About Mastella podcast. 0:00:10.119 --> 0:00:13.319 I'm Sarah Lamarquod, your host, and every week I sit 0:00:13.400 --> 0:00:15.560 down with some of the biggest names in the country, 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:19.160 because when Australia's celebrities are ready to talk, they come 0:00:19.200 --> 0:00:23.120 to Something to Talk About. Eleven years ago, Tim Minchin 0:00:23.200 --> 0:00:27.000 gave a speech that went viral. The Matilda composer, who 0:00:27.080 --> 0:00:30.080 was being awarded an honorary doctorate at the University of 0:00:30.120 --> 0:00:34.839 Western Australia, shared his nine life lessons to the graduating class. 0:00:35.120 --> 0:00:37.159 So I will, now, at the ripe old age of 0:00:37.520 --> 0:00:41.360 thirty seven point nine, burstow upon you nine life lessons 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:44.320 to echo, of course, the nine lessons of carols of 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:49.040 the traditional Christmas service, which is also pretty obscure. You 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:51.519 might find some of this stuff inspiring, you will definitely 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:54.120 find some of it boring, and you'll definitely forget all 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:55.000 of it within a week. 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:57.720 And to say it struck a chord with the world 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:00.920 is to put it mildly. Having locked up more than 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:05.640 five million views, and it's something that the actor slash composer, 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:10.960 slash writer slash comedian gets asked about a lot, which 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:13.760 is why in twenty twenty four, He's turned it into 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:16.600 a book called You Don't Have to Have a Dream. 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:20.240 As you're about to hear, Tim's life lessons are maybe 0:01:20.280 --> 0:01:23.319 even more relevant today than they were in twenty thirteen. 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:26.600 He joins me in the Something to Talk About studio 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:31.360 to talk about luck, microambition, the poison of social media, 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:36.440 compassion and infidelity. It gets a bit philosophical, but the 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:39.640 thing about Tim is he bears his soul in everything 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:44.640 he does, and this conversation proved no different. Tim mentioned, 0:01:44.760 --> 0:01:48.560 welcome to Something to Talk About. Your new book is 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:51.880 your first nonfiction book, You Don't Have to Have a Dream. 0:01:51.920 --> 0:01:55.480 It's inspired by a speech you gave when you were 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:59.400 awarded an honorary doctorate in twenty thirteen. How was it 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:02.560 going back and revisiting that through the lens of your 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:04.080 life eleven years later? 0:02:05.320 --> 0:02:08.880 It was good. I mean, I'm proud of that speech. 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:12.320 It's a weird thing to of all the things I've 0:02:12.360 --> 0:02:18.000 spent hundreds of hours trying to hone and create, and 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:21.320 I've brought all my skills to weirdly, of all the 0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:24.360 things I've done, the thing that's gone most viral, the 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:27.040 thing that sort of tens and tens of millions of 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:29.600 people have seen is this speech that I wrote in 0:02:30.000 --> 0:02:32.840 you know, thirty six hours in the two days before 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:40.200 this doctorate ceremony. And I'm glad I didn't overthink it. 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:41.760 And I'm glad I didn't know it was going to 0:02:41.760 --> 0:02:43.320 go viral, and I didn't know it was one day 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:45.040 going to be a book, because I think you can 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:50.880 get scuppered by the weight of expectations. But it's interesting 0:02:51.080 --> 0:02:56.160 because I guess I have a broadly sort of humanist 0:02:56.160 --> 0:03:00.880 worldview based on sort of old liberal values, critical thinking 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:03.960 and stuff. And it's nice to look back and go, oh, yeah, 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:07.560 it still stands because it's not a worldview that gets 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:14.040 very easily tossed in the seas of changing rhetorical traditions 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:18.200 or changing social justice focuses. It's a broader thing. It's 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:21.720 a broader philosophical lens through which I try to see 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:24.240 the world and try to act. And so I'm proud 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:28.440 that it holds up. It should given what I'm talking about, 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:35.160 which is base ideas, not specifics, and then getting someone 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:38.960 Penguin Random House wanting to publish into a book. I 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:42.200 then thought, well, making a speech into a books a 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:44.640 weird thing. But I've actually done three of these speeches, 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:47.960 so it's now a collection of speeches. The other two 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:51.119 didn't go superviral, but I think they're still They've got 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:55.960 similar underpinnings and discussed similar things, but through different sort 0:03:56.000 --> 0:03:58.880 of avenues. And I loved it. And I got the 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:01.880 opportunity to write essay reflecting on how my thoughts have 0:04:02.040 --> 0:04:07.080 changed or not changed, and that process was nice as well, 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:09.680 just to go does it all hang together the way 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:11.720 I see the world and the way I make my work? 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:16.000 And felt all right, I'm not sure who wants to 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:19.080 read it, but I'm never sure who wants any of 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:21.280 my work. It's not how I think about it. I'm 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:23.080 just like, here's some stuff, here's an offer. 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:25.160 Well, it's a bit like what you were saying when 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:29.120 of all the things that would go viral, that's not 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:32.279 necessarily that original speech something you would have expected. But 0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:35.279 I imagine as a creator, and you're obviously working so 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:41.279 many different mediums a composer, stand up comedian, actor, there's 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:45.600 so many different forms apart from writing that you communicate 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:49.040 and connect with audiences that if you overthink too much 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:52.880 the reception, that's almost like the audience's job. Isn't it. 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:55.680 Yeah? And what's been interesting for me, and I think 0:04:55.760 --> 0:05:00.400 I've negotiated okay, is that I didn't you know, I 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:03.280 wasn't a wunderkin. I wasn't eighteen. No one spotted me 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:05.760 and went, you're so handsome and good at singing, Let's 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:08.240 make you a pop star. You know. I did the 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:11.080 graft and did the ten years or twelve or fifteen 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:14.040 years of just working for free and doing, and so 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:18.240 when eventually something hit. And what hit was my satire, 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:23.560 my comedy, which was always much more music than comedy, 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:27.359 but it was it was its own thing, it was 0:05:27.400 --> 0:05:32.640 its own phenomenon to use it pretentious word. But that 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:36.680 I got that success because I didn't sit around thinking 0:05:36.680 --> 0:05:39.159 what does the market want from me? I, at some 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:41.000 point in my late twenties went, bugger it, I'm just 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:44.000 gonna do me on stage. I'm going to be quirky. 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:46.599 And I didn't set out to make comedy. I just thought, 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:48.039 I'm just going to do my songs and I'll do 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:51.440 my silly little monologues and it just really worked. And 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:54.760 so having gained success there, I then got asked to 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:59.160 write Matilda the Musical, and that I also didn't think 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:01.280 too much about what the audience wants. I just thought 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:06.520 what would I want? And that went so well that 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:09.320 I then had such an established career that it's tempting 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:11.920 at that point to start thinking, right, I've got a market, 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:15.320 now I've got a profile, what do they want? How 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:17.839 do I get another hit like Matilda? And how do 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:21.080 I feed that audience who wanted me to do comedy? 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:23.600 And at that point I went, that's not how I 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:25.880 got here. I got here by doing what I thought 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:30.920 was cool. And so I've never I've sort of as 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:35.880 a philosophical stance, never tried to make art market backwards, 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:40.040 identifying a market and going I'm going to reverse engineers. 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:44.159 Something that they'll consume is how much popular art is made. 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:46.359 But I, and I'm not being a snob about it, 0:06:46.360 --> 0:06:48.320 I just don't think i'll do that well. I don't 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:50.560 think that is my thing. I think my thing is like, 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:53.159 what do I think about now, and what's a fun 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:55.159 way to do it? And what would I like to see? 0:06:55.520 --> 0:07:00.360 And so I think I'm still doing that. I hope 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:02.039 I'm still doing that. I want to keep doing that. 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:05.640 I want to keep going ideas out, not market back. 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:09.120 We won't have time to unpack all nine especial to 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:11.840 go and read them. Well, I guess people have to 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:14.920 go on and read the book available where all good 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:17.480 books are sold or listened to these days. 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:18.200 End of podcast. 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:21.640 The first life lesson though, is the same as the 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:24.880 title of the book, You don't have to have a dream. 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:28.760 Yeah. I think of all the things that popped out 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:32.040 of that first speech that people related to or got 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:37.200 some solace from, I think is that it is slightly 0:07:37.560 --> 0:07:41.680 a reaction to what in the tens and still now 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:45.080 in the twenties, is this rising sense of this sort 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:49.360 of individualism thing that has all sorts of effects, and 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:54.280 they're not great. The gen Z is the most pessimistic 0:07:55.800 --> 0:08:00.480 generation that you know. Statistically they don't and I think 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:06.040 it's partly because they've been told that what success is, 0:08:06.240 --> 0:08:10.680 what they should aim for is something huge, and they 0:08:10.680 --> 0:08:13.200 get it all the time. On Instagram there's some virtuoso 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:15.880 ten year old playing guitar and they feel and my kid, 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:17.960 who's a really good guitarist, he feels like, what's the 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:20.520 point Like that Japanese kid is that you're like, oh 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:23.600 my god. And so what I was reacting against, which 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:26.600 has only got worse is the idea that to have 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:29.320 a satisfying life you have to be a black swan, 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:31.680 you have to be an outlier. It's statistically not going 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:34.640 to happen. And that, of course is rich coming from me, 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:37.640 because I got to be an outlier, like I just mean, 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:40.640 through luck. And that's another thing I talk about, is luck. 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:42.640 I got to be an outlier. I got to do 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:47.319 this unusual thing. So it's weird that the advice is 0:08:47.360 --> 0:08:51.440 coming from me. But I observe that aiming for some 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:54.079 massive dream that you can be an astronaut or the 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:57.040 president of the United States is actually not how you 0:08:57.080 --> 0:09:01.960 get happy. The way all the data shows happiness is 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:05.280 most likely is they talk about a meaningful contribution to 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:08.240 your community, right, And how often do you hear some 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:10.840 pop star or whatever say to kids you should aim 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:13.319 to make a meaningful contribution to your community. That's all 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:16.439 kids should ever hear, because that's what makes you happy 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:20.120 and it's achievable. And that doesn't mean you don't end 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:22.520 up with a dream. It just means that in the moment, 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:24.880 you're not distracted by the idea that you're going to 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:27.959 punch the ceiling out, you know. So what I say 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:31.560 is be micro ambitious. And that was the thing that 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:34.640 really hit in that lesson, is this idea of micro ambition, 0:09:34.920 --> 0:09:37.679 work with passion on what's in front of you, and 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:40.120 then who knows, the next job might be bigger and 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:43.000 you might end up on Broadway. But when I was 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:46.000 writing music for theater, when I was eighteen nineteen for 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:49.160 You Theater for Free in Perth, I wasn't thinking this 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:52.200 is a step to get me to Broadway. I was thinking, 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:55.600 how do I make people cry in this community theater 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:58.199 version of Love's Labors Lost? How do I make them 0:09:58.200 --> 0:10:01.200 have the best night ever? So that's the only lesson 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:04.240 I can bestow. And if that had landed me as 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:06.400 a high school music teacher, I would have been happy. 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:09.439 I think it just happens that I had this other path. 0:10:09.840 --> 0:10:13.360 It's not we tell people live in the moment and 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:15.800 it sounds great, but we don't know how to do that. 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:20.960 Just focus on what's in front of you. It helps. 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:23.920 I also think you mentioned luck there, Tim, and there's 0:10:23.960 --> 0:10:29.120 another chapter. Remember it's all luck. I think it's actually 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:33.400 got so much power coming from somebody like you, because 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:36.800 it's a little bit like having a very very wealthy 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:41.560 person talking about wealth, inequity, and the problems with distribution 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:43.960 of wealth in our world. It probably has more impact 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:47.120 coming from somebody who's like, well, I'm not just saying 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:50.040 this because I could really do with a little bit 0:10:50.040 --> 0:10:53.680 of money. I think if you are somebody who has 0:10:53.800 --> 0:10:57.120 achieved a certain success, it's actually got more impact to 0:10:57.120 --> 0:10:59.880 say to somebody it does not have to look like 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:02.760 this for you, and I would have been okay if 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:03.760 it didn't look like this. 0:11:04.400 --> 0:11:06.560 Yeah, I mean, I'm glad you say that, because I 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:09.719 think it can be the opposites, like, screw you, bro, 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:12.960 you had all your dreams come true. Don't tell me 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:17.040 that it's all luck. It's like come it's sort of 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:21.319 a bit twee or something. But so that it's all luck. 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:23.480 Chapter is just a toe in the water of a 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:26.400 much bigger discussion that I may one day write a 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:29.000 book on, which is really that I'm a determinist, which 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:33.680 means I actually think we're just emergent entities of the universe, 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:36.480 and that every single thing that we do or say 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:39.559 that the fact you're blinking now, the air temperature in 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:42.120 the room is all they all are things that come 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:44.760 at the end of an unbroken chain of causality that 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:47.880 started at the Big Bang, right, So I don't really 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:51.000 believe in free will. So that's a really when people 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:52.880 say that and they haven't really looked into that, and 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:54.679 they hear someone say I don't believe in free will, 0:11:55.320 --> 0:11:58.480 they just go, don't be an idiot. But I actually 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:05.360 really really believe I'm a genuine determinist proper, and that 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:09.040 means that I don't think people can really be blamed 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:14.080 or credited for their actions, which comes with the whole 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:19.960 raft of ethical and philosophical problems and also solutions. It's 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:22.520 not one that we can get through now. But what 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:26.600 I say in the speech is if you understand that 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:29.440 people are the way they are because of where they 0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:33.040 come from, what their genes and environment was, basically, then 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:37.480 it increases your empathy and hopefully increases your humility. Now 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:40.480 I know there'll be people listening to this who don't 0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:43.560 think I'm very humble, and I don't really care, and 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:46.560 I don't know if I am or not, but certainly philosophically, 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:50.920 I genuinely don't think that the fact how hard I've 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:54.600 worked is to be like particularly people like I go 0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:56.080 it's all luck, and they go, but you've worked so 0:12:56.120 --> 0:12:59.080 hard and me, yeah, but I did not realist people 0:12:59.080 --> 0:13:01.400 have worked harder who I haven't got where I've got. 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:05.040 And I don't just mean luck as in, you know, 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:07.319 I got a break. In fact, I didn't really get 0:13:07.360 --> 0:13:10.040 many breaks. I'm just I got born with this brain 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:12.920 that loves doing this stuff. When I sat down when 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:15.160 I was fourteen and taught myself piano, basically, that's just 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:18.400 like obsessing over how fast I could play a blue 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:20.520 scale that I didn't do that that was just a 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:23.400 it came out of me. It's just luck, you know. 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:28.520 And I do think empathy an intellectual framework that helps 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:31.320 you extend empathy to people who are suffering or doing 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:37.880 bad doing even acting badly immorally, and an intellectual framework 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:40.600 that keeps a lid on your hubris. When you do well, 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:43.840 it feels good to me. And for me, that's determinism. 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:47.520 And that's a big, big topic. But I like talking about. 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:51.080 I find the topic of luck an absolutely fascinating topic. 0:13:52.520 --> 0:13:55.280 A few years ago, there was quite a movement, particularly 0:13:55.320 --> 0:14:00.360 among millennial women, to really say to other women ever, 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:03.280 just say that it's lucky. I remember being on radio 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:05.480 one time and saying I've had like a lot of 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:08.160 lucky in my career. I was being asked about something 0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:11.200 and somebody actually had texted me and they were like, 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:15.040 you're not lucky, Like you work harder than anyone, justice, you're. 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:16.320 A female, and you think you don't deserve it. 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:19.160 It's like and I understood their intention, and I understood 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:21.760 that it was seen as though I'm you know, diminishing myself, 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:24.320 as I'm sure people feel the same for you. But 0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:26.200 as you said, Tim, you've worked so hard and you 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:28.760 actually are really talented, and there is a view that 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:30.800 you are backing away. But I said to this person, 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:34.120 that's true. It's one of many different things. And also 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:37.600 I've also had bad luck, and I think the people 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:42.680 that deny luck are often people that haven't had terribly 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:43.400 bad luck. 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:49.200 That's such a beautifully articulated observation. I don't think I've 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:54.440 ever framed it quite like that. But yeah, if you 0:14:54.520 --> 0:15:00.440 don't know what it's like to have just been given 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:06.640 a circumstances just completely frickin unfair, that certainly humbles you 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:09.120 and makes you realize that the circumstances that were unfair 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:12.760 on other people but fair on you. People are soleabpsistic 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:15.200 by nature. We or I am we are. We see 0:15:15.200 --> 0:15:19.280 the world through our lens. We are always building narratives 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:22.480 in our head that maintain our centrality and our narrative 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:24.760 in our story. Right, I am the hero or the 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:27.880 victim of every moment you listen to people talk. I 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:31.240 told him and he said to me, and you're always 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:35.760 either the hero or the victim. And that's totally fine 0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:38.560 and normal. But just a bit of awareness about that, 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:42.680 and a bit of awareness that I love. Sorry, I'm 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:45.000 just explaining what you said back to you, and unnecessarily 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:48.720 it's really really true. And also the idea that you're 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:53.360 letting down the sisterhood by acknowledging the role of luck 0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:57.680 is it's just as that stuff doesn't feel right to me, Like, 0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:01.760 I don't think. I think all humans, regardless agenda, should 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:04.560 be aware of the circumstances by which they are privileged. 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:08.160 And if all the women don't acknowledge their luck, then 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:09.880 all the men start feeling like, well, I'm going to 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:14.080 take ownership of minus, like just not a binary. 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:17.360 One final question on luck. You are somebody who travels 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:22.320 the world. You've been successful in our Broadway West End, 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:26.720 of course in Australia. How does this particular philosophy go 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:30.360 down in the United States because I obviously hate to 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:33.360 generalize any country or culture. But we all know, and 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:35.920 our listeners will of course know that is you know, 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:38.760 just you can make it. It's just hard work. It's this 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:42.000 every week American myth. 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:48.080 You know, So the American dream. Not not all cultural 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:51.360 stories we tell ourselves have to be strictly true. I'm 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:54.680 very interested in the utility of our narratives, our personal 0:16:54.800 --> 0:17:00.240 and national and cultural narratives. So the American dream, you know. 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:04.840 I studied arts during the sort of beginning, the real 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:08.640 beginning of postmodernism, that everything that can be deconstructed should 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:11.440 be And I have grown up and realized that probably 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:16.440 you shouldn't deconstruct every single cultural norm, meme, or narrative 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:23.720 without considering the possible unintended negative outcomes of such deconstruction, 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:25.840 you know. So one thing we could deconstruct is the 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:28.800 idea that, you know, the American dream, that we could 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:32.880 that it's bollocks. There's not that much. Not many poor 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:35.840 people get rich with hard work. Most poor people work 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:38.720 really really hard. But the barriers to getting out of 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:44.879 poverty are just are so great that the stories we 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:48.760 hear about ah, the kind of oh he was six 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:50.800 foot nine. He worked really hard, but he was six 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:53.879 foot nine, you know, like, oh, that shows the American 0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:55.840 dream that he was six foot nine. He's a really 0:17:55.840 --> 0:17:59.440 good basketballer, but he was six ft nine. So mostly 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:04.880 you don't break and yet up until recently, it's been 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:09.080 functional for that country to tell its people that it's 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:13.640 possible and to try. It was only when, you know, 0:18:13.960 --> 0:18:18.080 when greedy people stopped, you know, started doing things that 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:23.639 made income inequality so great that it became laughable. But 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:25.480 in the second half of the twentieth century, maybe it 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:28.240 was a really good narrative. Maybe it got more people 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:31.800 out of poverty than a different narrative, than a more 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:33.960 a narrative that I would have signed up to more 0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:36.560 as a progressive lefty that you have to give people 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:40.359 lots of help and you know, social which I still believe, 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:44.160 but I could be convinced by data that the narrative 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:47.160 was useful. It doesn't mean to need to be true 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:52.440 to be useful, right, But you're absolutely right. The Americans 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:55.879 really like to They really still believe their country is 0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:57.919 the greatest country in the world, even as it just 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:04.359 turns into an absolute circus, and they really they still 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:07.320 believe in their national narratives and it's quite interesting to 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:09.320 watch them clinging on to them as they become less 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:12.040 and less functional. And that's a massive generalization. 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:19.440 And up next, Tim talk's infidelity, family life and why 0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:27.199 he thinks social media is poison. Your book is described 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:32.040 as a rallying cry for creativity, critical thinking, and compassion. 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:35.760 I didn't write that, but that's nice. I think that's 0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:36.200 what it is. 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:38.560 I guess I do. And that's why I wanted to 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:42.000 ask you about it, because these are values that are 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:46.000 so important and possibly to your earlier answer just then 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:48.479 about talk him out a country like the United States. 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:52.960 September now very interesting couple of months ahead as we 0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:55.399 head towards the US election, even for those of us 0:19:55.480 --> 0:20:00.480 in Australia. The tone of discourse, the hyper part artisan, 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:04.520 the anger, the vitriol that so many of us are feeling, 0:20:05.160 --> 0:20:10.520 whatever our engagement or otherwise in our political issues. I 0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:13.240 did want to ask you, particularly about compassion, a word 0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:18.440 I don't know that we think about properly in modern Australia. 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:21.439 It has a little bit of an old fashioned sense 0:20:21.520 --> 0:20:27.000 to it. How are you feeling about those ideas. Are 0:20:27.040 --> 0:20:32.800 we allowing one another's space for compassion, for creative thinking, 0:20:33.720 --> 0:20:35.680 for critical thinking. 0:20:37.800 --> 0:20:46.560 I think that social media is a mechanism for suppression 0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:53.520 of compassion, and I think social justice through a social 0:20:53.600 --> 0:20:59.960 media portal, social justice forced through social media, which unfortunately 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:03.360 is where most of it exists. I think we will 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:06.720 look back and decide we did as much harm as good, 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:09.439 even though really good things have happened out of the 0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:16.480 mobilization of previously suppressed voices. What I saw every day 0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:19.120 and that distressed me so much that I have finally 0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:22.399 got off all of it, and it has, for the record, 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:25.760 definitely improved my mental health and my capacity to do 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:28.800 good in the world because I'm not getting sucked into 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:34.000 other people's drama and pain and bullying and nastiness and illogic. 0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:40.480 And what I observe is that social media allows you 0:21:40.560 --> 0:21:45.119 to not extend your compassion past what you perceive to 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:49.439 be your tribe as designated by an algorithm that you 0:21:49.480 --> 0:21:55.040 didn't design. So the way I've been treated on I mean, 0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:58.399 I'm not crying, you know, but even me, you know, 0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:02.800 a nice, moderate guy who mostly writes musicals. But yes, 0:22:02.840 --> 0:22:05.960 I've said edgy things and I've hurt people's feelings and 0:22:05.960 --> 0:22:09.639 stuff in the past, so I'm not complaining. But the 0:22:09.680 --> 0:22:12.160 way people talk to you, it's just like and having 0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:16.359 a thousand people call you a whatever, any whatever you 0:22:16.560 --> 0:22:19.879 and you don't recognize it in yourself. You're like, oh, 0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:23.440 hold on, no, that's not me. It's it changes your brain, 0:22:23.560 --> 0:22:30.080 you know it. It's really poisonous, and it makes you 0:22:30.119 --> 0:22:34.399 think those people your enemies. So social media creates we 0:22:34.480 --> 0:22:38.560 all know this, a mechanism by which people can justify 0:22:39.000 --> 0:22:42.200 the suppression of compassion for people who either don't look 0:22:42.280 --> 0:22:44.040 like them, or have a different gender, or have a 0:22:44.040 --> 0:22:48.200 different sexuality, or have a and it and and it's 0:22:48.240 --> 0:22:51.360 bad whichever direction it flows in. I'm not saying racism, 0:22:52.000 --> 0:22:54.720 you know, towards white people is the same as racism 0:22:54.720 --> 0:22:58.920 towards black people. But I'm saying the harm done by 0:22:58.960 --> 0:23:01.920 suppressing your comp for the what you see as the 0:23:01.960 --> 0:23:10.320 other is consistent, not quantitatively consistent, but qualitatively it is 0:23:10.440 --> 0:23:13.720 harming to society if you have a mechanism by which 0:23:13.760 --> 0:23:16.280 you can just say they are the other. Therefore, I 0:23:16.960 --> 0:23:20.359 don't care. I don't care how they feel or whether 0:23:20.400 --> 0:23:22.240 they lose their job. I don't care about them. Why 0:23:22.240 --> 0:23:25.120 would I care about a straight white guy. I mean, 0:23:25.280 --> 0:23:27.360 I don't care about straight white guys. You know when 0:23:27.359 --> 0:23:29.639 I went to school, When I got to UNI, I 0:23:29.680 --> 0:23:33.320 was like, thank god, you know, women and queer people 0:23:33.359 --> 0:23:35.919 and everything. You know, it changed. You know, I'm a 0:23:36.000 --> 0:23:41.679 theater guy, you know, but it just doesn't help to 0:23:41.760 --> 0:23:47.080 have this machine that so allows us to go that 0:23:47.240 --> 0:23:50.360 faceless person is not a human to me, It's just poison. 0:23:51.040 --> 0:23:55.040 So I would love to contribute something to that conversation 0:23:56.359 --> 0:23:57.960 through this book or through my work. And I do 0:23:58.080 --> 0:23:59.399 talk about it a bit, and I don't want to 0:23:59.400 --> 0:24:03.879 be an old ex gen bore, but I talked to 0:24:03.920 --> 0:24:05.560 my kids a lot about it, you know. You just 0:24:06.080 --> 0:24:09.560 our job is to extend our empathy as widely as 0:24:09.600 --> 0:24:12.639 we can bear. And for some people that will be harder. 0:24:12.760 --> 0:24:16.679 If you're Aboriginal Australian who's got terrible intergenerational trauma, it 0:24:16.680 --> 0:24:18.960 will be hard to extend your empathy to some suited, 0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:23.480 rich white bloke. But most of us, most of the time, 0:24:23.520 --> 0:24:26.000 should extend our empathy as far as we can bear 0:24:26.080 --> 0:24:31.240 to people who are suffering, to criminals and to angry people, 0:24:31.480 --> 0:24:33.520 to men and women, to people who don't look like 0:24:33.640 --> 0:24:38.840 us to Jews and Arab Muslims. To open our arms 0:24:38.880 --> 0:24:42.760 as wide as we come bear. And if everyone does that, 0:24:43.000 --> 0:24:46.639 we'll still have lots of wars and fights, but it 0:24:46.680 --> 0:24:48.720 won't be the norm. 0:24:49.000 --> 0:24:51.679 I love that, So I really do love that, and 0:24:51.720 --> 0:24:55.760 I think that this book does certainly help progress that conversation. 0:24:55.920 --> 0:24:59.960 And I think it's actually a really important cross generational conversation. 0:25:00.560 --> 0:25:04.520 I mean, I'm the mum of Generation Alpha kids and 0:25:04.640 --> 0:25:07.199 they're feeling it, and I think the Gen zs and 0:25:07.240 --> 0:25:11.320 millennials and Gen X and boomers. I really do think 0:25:11.359 --> 0:25:14.359 this is a hate to be or the burning issue 0:25:14.359 --> 0:25:16.919 of our times. But it's got to be, isn't it. 0:25:17.040 --> 0:25:19.639 The lack of compassion, the lack of empathy, and the 0:25:19.720 --> 0:25:23.879 hyperpartisan You don't think like me, you don't look like me, 0:25:23.960 --> 0:25:26.159 you're not saying exactly what I think or what I 0:25:26.200 --> 0:25:27.640 want to hear. Then you're the other. 0:25:28.040 --> 0:25:31.159 And it's the means to the end, is that people 0:25:31.160 --> 0:25:35.679 who want change go that suppression of compassion is a 0:25:35.760 --> 0:25:38.840 means to an end, and I simply don't believe they're right. 0:25:39.560 --> 0:25:43.280 I simply do not believe putting aside your compassion for 0:25:43.320 --> 0:25:45.960 your fellow humans, just for now, just because we need 0:25:45.960 --> 0:25:48.720 to get this done. We'll bring our compassion back once 0:25:48.760 --> 0:25:51.280 we've got equality in the workplace, or once we've got 0:25:51.359 --> 0:25:53.720 no pay gap, or once we've got more people of 0:25:53.800 --> 0:25:56.000 color on stage, or whatever your thing is, which is 0:25:56.400 --> 0:25:58.560 these are all my things as well. Like there's no 0:25:58.600 --> 0:26:02.399 philosophical gap between between some of my peers and me 0:26:02.520 --> 0:26:05.640 about what we want. But they're like, and therefore I'm 0:26:05.680 --> 0:26:07.560 going to I think it's okay that I'm going to 0:26:07.560 --> 0:26:11.160 put aside my humanity just for now. History is riddled 0:26:11.880 --> 0:26:15.720 with means to an end errors, just for now. Look, 0:26:16.040 --> 0:26:18.320 mostly we want we want Germany to I'm going to 0:26:18.359 --> 0:26:20.000 do it. I'm going to bring up nuts. We want 0:26:20.000 --> 0:26:22.719 Germany to be great, and normally we're a great country, 0:26:22.720 --> 0:26:24.720 but we just got to get rid of this disease. 0:26:25.240 --> 0:26:28.920 Just got to get rid of these horrible, controlling people, 0:26:29.119 --> 0:26:31.719 and then we can be the fine, upstanding Germany we 0:26:31.720 --> 0:26:34.479 want to just don't do means to an end? 0:26:34.680 --> 0:26:37.080 And when does that day ever even come? That's a thing, 0:26:37.240 --> 0:26:40.240 When does the end even come? That justifies the means. 0:26:39.960 --> 0:26:42.440 You've done damage? If you're I always think, I always 0:26:42.480 --> 0:26:47.280 say your philosophical ideas should do work in as many 0:26:47.359 --> 0:26:51.119 different places as possible, you know, Like, so I want 0:26:51.440 --> 0:26:55.199 that person not to be able to post a swastika 0:26:55.240 --> 0:26:58.800 on you know, the states. Many Australian states have passed 0:26:58.840 --> 0:27:01.560 laws saying you're not allowed to post swastikers. I want 0:27:01.640 --> 0:27:04.760 because that is hateful, and I don't want I want 0:27:04.800 --> 0:27:07.640 a law. And then you go, right, well, okay, you've 0:27:07.680 --> 0:27:10.400 now made a law that sets a precedent for your 0:27:10.440 --> 0:27:12.960 government to say what symbols you're allowed to post. So 0:27:13.040 --> 0:27:18.880 this black power fist and on a poster saying fuck 0:27:18.920 --> 0:27:23.320 the police. I mean, with a different government, why can't 0:27:23.400 --> 0:27:27.080 they make a law about that? That is hate, but 0:27:27.119 --> 0:27:30.359 it's justified hate to you, Like, maybe we should have 0:27:30.359 --> 0:27:32.399 a thing where the government doesn't really get involved in 0:27:32.440 --> 0:27:34.480 what symbols we can post, even though we all agree 0:27:34.480 --> 0:27:38.080 that swastika is sickening. Like so that's just one example, 0:27:38.119 --> 0:27:39.600 and I'm going to be accused of being a free 0:27:39.600 --> 0:27:42.680 speech bro of, Like, you've got to make rules that 0:27:43.440 --> 0:27:48.480 extend across different ways of viewing the world and being compassionate. 0:27:48.720 --> 0:27:50.800 It has to cut both ways. If you want that 0:27:51.000 --> 0:27:54.320 conservative Christian to be compassionate to your need to marry 0:27:54.760 --> 0:27:58.840 a same sex partner. Then they find that abhorrent and 0:27:58.880 --> 0:28:01.880 they're wrong, but they find it abhorrent because of where 0:28:01.880 --> 0:28:04.719 they've come from. And you're asking them to even though 0:28:04.760 --> 0:28:06.520 they find it abhorrent and they believe in a god 0:28:06.560 --> 0:28:08.960 that doesn't like it, which is just bollocks, But you're 0:28:09.040 --> 0:28:12.320 asking them to put aside their beliefs out of compassion 0:28:12.359 --> 0:28:15.439 for you and your love for your partner. You have 0:28:15.520 --> 0:28:19.520 to be unfortunately compassionate for their beliefs. I mean, I 0:28:19.640 --> 0:28:24.560 disagree with them. I've been absolutely slammed in the right 0:28:24.600 --> 0:28:28.280 wing press in this country for expressing my disagreement with 0:28:28.320 --> 0:28:34.159 those people. But unfortunately, you can't hate them if you 0:28:34.200 --> 0:28:36.639 want them not to hate you. It's really hard work. 0:28:36.760 --> 0:28:37.960 But we have to do the work. 0:28:38.880 --> 0:28:44.000 It is hard work, and that's why unfortunately, historically humans 0:28:44.280 --> 0:28:47.360 we haven't done the hard work and it ain't working. 0:28:47.600 --> 0:28:51.880 Yes, and I don't know how to usher. Yeah, well, 0:28:51.960 --> 0:28:54.719 oh my god. And the big thing when we talk 0:28:54.760 --> 0:28:56.840 about this thing, I'm sorry, I'm just on one now, 0:28:56.880 --> 0:29:01.800 but in Australia, you look, you know, I want to 0:29:01.840 --> 0:29:04.840 say to some of my peers who sort of just 0:29:04.880 --> 0:29:08.040 want to tear the whole thing down, which I understand. 0:29:08.120 --> 0:29:10.800 I'm very very privileged. Who am I to say you 0:29:10.840 --> 0:29:13.719 shouldn't want to tear the whole thing down, you know, 0:29:13.960 --> 0:29:18.200 to to you know, fuck capitalism, decolonize And I understand 0:29:18.280 --> 0:29:23.200 where those words and desires come from. But don't you 0:29:23.240 --> 0:29:26.480 sit here and look at America becoming more and more 0:29:26.480 --> 0:29:32.160 and more divided and just unsustainably no one listening. And 0:29:32.200 --> 0:29:35.200 don't you look at Israel and Gaza and look at 0:29:35.200 --> 0:29:38.360 what happens when too different peoples with different sets of beliefs, 0:29:38.360 --> 0:29:43.720 and it never dehumanize one another. I'm not drawing equivalents 0:29:43.760 --> 0:29:47.720 in any direction. Don't you just go, fuck, let's not 0:29:48.960 --> 0:29:54.720 that's not like, you know, perfect is the is the 0:29:54.800 --> 0:29:57.880 is the opposition of good whatever that phrase is, like utopianism, 0:29:57.920 --> 0:30:01.280 like it's not perfect, Let's tear it down. It's like, ah, 0:30:01.320 --> 0:30:03.680 I don't know, Like I think maybe we just need 0:30:03.680 --> 0:30:06.160 to try and just really get closer to one another 0:30:06.240 --> 0:30:08.840 rather than further apart from one another, if we possibly can. 0:30:09.280 --> 0:30:12.600 I totally agree. And I think it's also ties in 0:30:12.600 --> 0:30:15.880 a bit with the first principle we were talking about about, 0:30:16.320 --> 0:30:19.720 you know, waiting to have that dream and waiting for 0:30:19.800 --> 0:30:26.720 that perfection. I think the saying is that enemy perfection 0:30:26.920 --> 0:30:29.680 is the enemy of that's right, and it is so 0:30:29.840 --> 0:30:34.719 true because it's the same there. There's so many civil 0:30:34.800 --> 0:30:39.640 rights advancements and advancements against climate change and moments in 0:30:39.800 --> 0:30:42.760 history where we could have taken action but because it 0:30:42.880 --> 0:30:47.840 wasn't perfect, it was often shut down by progressives as well, 0:30:48.680 --> 0:30:51.120 which is like a political example of something where if 0:30:51.120 --> 0:30:54.840 you're waiting for perfection, whether it's your own life, for culture, 0:30:55.000 --> 0:30:55.960 it's not going to happen. 0:30:56.520 --> 0:31:00.160 History also is peppered with instances where incredible urgency you 0:31:00.320 --> 0:31:04.000 got it done as well and protest and so you know, 0:31:04.120 --> 0:31:08.960 I'm not broadly obviously a conservative person. But the other 0:31:09.120 --> 0:31:13.760 the thing I was saying on stage recently is in 0:31:13.800 --> 0:31:15.920 my back tour, I had a line that I sometimes 0:31:15.920 --> 0:31:19.880 would throw out, which is, if your only acceptable outcome 0:31:19.960 --> 0:31:24.560 is utopia and your only acceptable timescale is now, you 0:31:24.680 --> 0:31:27.920 will do more harm than good. And history definitely shows 0:31:27.920 --> 0:31:33.920 that trying to impose radical is only war, only war. 0:31:35.640 --> 0:31:38.240 The other thing I throw out is the counterfactual is 0:31:38.240 --> 0:31:41.840 not utopia. You know, like, look at this a terrible country. 0:31:41.840 --> 0:31:44.920 You're like, oh yeah, and there's that if you ran 0:31:44.960 --> 0:31:48.840 the experiment of the rise of humankind on the planet 0:31:48.840 --> 0:31:53.600 Earth one hundred thousand times. You know, there's worse ones, 0:31:53.640 --> 0:32:00.280 there's better ones. I mean, how many mammalian civilization that 0:32:00.320 --> 0:32:03.360 grew up to have consciousness would end up in a 0:32:03.440 --> 0:32:06.520 multicultural democracy like Australia. I'd say it'd be very few. 0:32:06.600 --> 0:32:09.040 I think mostly we'd chopple our heads off many many, 0:32:09.200 --> 0:32:10.240 many millennia ago. 0:32:11.000 --> 0:32:11.240 True. 0:32:11.680 --> 0:32:14.600 So yeah, but again, unbelievably easy for me to say, 0:32:14.720 --> 0:32:16.280 sitting pretty at the top of the pile, you. 0:32:16.320 --> 0:32:19.880 Know, but it's an important point, and none of them 0:32:19.960 --> 0:32:22.920 in that experiment would have ever been utopia, So surely 0:32:22.960 --> 0:32:24.160 we've got to accept that. 0:32:24.760 --> 0:32:28.040 It's proposed the long arc of justice. 0:32:28.320 --> 0:32:31.880 I want to make a massive gear shift year and 0:32:32.040 --> 0:32:35.720 talk a little bit about family if I can. You 0:32:35.960 --> 0:32:39.920 are happily married with two children. I met you two 0:32:40.080 --> 0:32:45.000 years ago. Timawatt was lucky enough to moderate a panel 0:32:45.320 --> 0:32:47.800 with yourself and some of the cast and creatives at 0:32:47.840 --> 0:32:51.640 the premiere of Upright Season two, and your wife Sarah 0:32:51.720 --> 0:32:54.280 was there, and I remember we're backstage just about to 0:32:54.320 --> 0:32:57.440 go on. Look, I hope you don't mind me telling 0:32:57.480 --> 0:32:59.200 this story, and we can edit it out, so if 0:32:59.200 --> 0:33:02.200 you're listening to it all means Tim, No, it's nothing bad. 0:33:02.240 --> 0:33:05.120 It was just very sweet and you were talking to 0:33:05.160 --> 0:33:08.080 somebody just saying, oh, Sarah got her seat, your wife Sarah, 0:33:08.160 --> 0:33:09.960 because there was a seat for her. And it's just 0:33:10.040 --> 0:33:13.520 it was really sweet and it might not sound like 0:33:13.600 --> 0:33:17.760 a really big deal, but they're just those really organic, 0:33:17.880 --> 0:33:23.600 warm insights into a person that you're always an event 0:33:23.720 --> 0:33:26.680 like that. You know, that was nothing unusual for you. 0:33:26.880 --> 0:33:30.840 It was probably an ordinary Thursday night, but front of 0:33:30.880 --> 0:33:33.880 mine for you before it started, was just making sure 0:33:33.920 --> 0:33:36.240 that your wife had found her seat and she was there, 0:33:36.240 --> 0:33:37.800 and you were going to go and sit with her 0:33:38.000 --> 0:33:40.840 once the Q and A was over, to actually watch 0:33:40.880 --> 0:33:42.440 the show. It's really long. 0:33:42.480 --> 0:33:44.440 I'm glad you caught me getting it right. I mean, 0:33:44.440 --> 0:33:50.200 it's I mean, I said, Sarah's not not the same 0:33:50.240 --> 0:33:53.880 personality as me. She's not. She doesn't find opening nights 0:33:53.920 --> 0:33:55.880 like they're not her favorite thing. And the fact that 0:33:55.960 --> 0:33:57.880 when I turn up to an opening night, suddenly I'm 0:33:57.880 --> 0:34:00.680 surrounded by people, you know, putting me on a red 0:34:00.720 --> 0:34:03.640 carpet doing this, and she just feels like such a dick, 0:34:03.760 --> 0:34:05.640 you know, she feels so like, what am I even 0:34:05.720 --> 0:34:07.720 doing here, no one, and every now and then we 0:34:07.800 --> 0:34:09.560 get a photo together and then of course they won't 0:34:09.640 --> 0:34:12.800 use that one, and she's just it's all humiliating being 0:34:13.160 --> 0:34:16.600 the partner. And she's also not an extra of it, 0:34:16.760 --> 0:34:19.080 so she's obviously you could have a patage just like 0:34:19.120 --> 0:34:21.759 oh whatever, I'll just talk to you know, Sarah. And 0:34:24.040 --> 0:34:28.440 so I've learned. I'm always very concerned that she's not 0:34:29.120 --> 0:34:30.960 being put in a position where she just feels like 0:34:31.000 --> 0:34:35.880 a you know, spare prick at a wedding. So but 0:34:36.080 --> 0:34:40.640 also we've been together for so long and I've done 0:34:40.719 --> 0:34:44.319 enough stuff now that the initial flush of oh my god, 0:34:44.360 --> 0:34:47.319 look at me go has gone away. And when that 0:34:47.400 --> 0:34:50.319 goes away and it becomes more procedural, not that I'm 0:34:50.360 --> 0:34:52.719 ever not grateful and excited. When I do it a 0:34:52.840 --> 0:34:56.520 night like that, it's hugely exciting. But when you've done 0:34:56.560 --> 0:34:59.200 it a few times and a red carpet's no longer 0:34:59.320 --> 0:35:03.560 the most exciting thing ever, and you of course revert 0:35:03.600 --> 0:35:06.319 to you know, what are these regression to the mean? 0:35:06.400 --> 0:35:08.560 You revert to your norm, and the norm is when 0:35:09.120 --> 0:35:12.239 you have space then to go right, what do I 0:35:12.280 --> 0:35:15.240 care about? Oh, Sarah's on her own, right, so it's nice. 0:35:15.320 --> 0:35:17.840 It's nice to be a bit older and not to 0:35:17.880 --> 0:35:20.840 be so tossed on the sea of fate. You know. 0:35:21.040 --> 0:35:25.400 I feel a bit more in control of stuff now, 0:35:25.880 --> 0:35:27.759 and the way you do that is not get too 0:35:27.760 --> 0:35:28.319 swept up. 0:35:29.320 --> 0:35:33.160 Famously, one of your songs, A'll Take Lonely Tonight, was 0:35:33.320 --> 0:35:37.160 inspired by, really, I suppose, the challenge of staying faithful, 0:35:37.320 --> 0:35:39.680 and Sarah spoke about it when you were both on 0:35:39.760 --> 0:35:41.560 Australian Story years ago. 0:35:42.200 --> 0:35:45.400 She's so amazing on those things, like she's an introvert, 0:35:45.400 --> 0:35:47.959 but you stick a camera on she's like, oh okay. 0:35:47.960 --> 0:35:51.240 She was absolutely amazing, And it was so great because 0:35:51.280 --> 0:35:55.279 she was saying, and I know you've spoken in the 0:35:55.320 --> 0:36:00.719 past about how when you're coming home, she's going to 0:36:00.760 --> 0:36:03.160 tell you what's what? That obviously a little bit what 0:36:03.200 --> 0:36:06.480 you were just saying there. It's about this world that 0:36:06.520 --> 0:36:09.839 you live in. It's so easy, understandably maybe for some 0:36:09.880 --> 0:36:11.360 people to get a bit caught up in it, but 0:36:11.400 --> 0:36:13.719 to have that real grounding at home. And I think 0:36:13.800 --> 0:36:15.880 we all saw a glimpse of that on a Stranding's 0:36:15.880 --> 0:36:17.920 Story and she's like, well, really that song is really 0:36:18.040 --> 0:36:20.120 just that he's not cheating on me and you know, 0:36:20.680 --> 0:36:24.640 like Bravo, And I wanted to ask you about that, 0:36:25.080 --> 0:36:29.920 tim because do you ever want a self censor? Because 0:36:29.960 --> 0:36:33.680 obviously that transparency, that vulnerability is at the heart of 0:36:33.719 --> 0:36:38.680 a lot of great artistic work. But then obviously there 0:36:38.800 --> 0:36:44.280 is that's something that is a really genuine, raw insight 0:36:44.440 --> 0:36:49.920 into someone's thinking and their battles and thinking about things. 0:36:50.080 --> 0:36:52.360 Is there a part of you that thinks, oh gosh, 0:36:52.360 --> 0:36:55.399 am I going to get pushback? What did she think 0:36:55.440 --> 0:36:59.319 when she first heard that song? Do you recall she. 0:36:59.239 --> 0:37:04.840 Didn't love it? But then because it feels very personal, 0:37:04.920 --> 0:37:10.640 And there's two mitigating things. One is when I write 0:37:10.680 --> 0:37:14.200 a song, I think when anyone writes a song, you 0:37:14.239 --> 0:37:17.720 have a seed of an idea. Oh, no, one's really 0:37:17.760 --> 0:37:20.040 written that song about that feeling of really wanting to 0:37:20.080 --> 0:37:25.520 shag someone and they're not. And I had the conceptual 0:37:25.560 --> 0:37:29.919 idea of a sort of the orgasmic release of waking 0:37:29.960 --> 0:37:33.680 up the next morning having not screwed up. And I also, 0:37:33.719 --> 0:37:36.520 I'm very interested in I sometimes talk to especially my 0:37:36.560 --> 0:37:39.640 female friends, and I think I'm I'm a bit of 0:37:39.640 --> 0:37:43.880 an evolution head. I understand some women have sex drives 0:37:43.920 --> 0:37:47.399 like some men, but I think as a graph. When 0:37:47.400 --> 0:37:50.000 I talk to my female friends, I'm like, oh, I 0:37:50.080 --> 0:37:56.719 don't think you know what I have felt like, what 0:37:56.760 --> 0:38:01.120 do you think do you think the my brain in 0:38:01.200 --> 0:38:03.720 the times in my life when I've wanted to sleep 0:38:03.719 --> 0:38:07.480 with someone, it's like, and I'm not making any excuses, 0:38:07.480 --> 0:38:09.600 and I've made good choices in my life, but the 0:38:09.680 --> 0:38:14.480 battle is like, I've got an ape in me. And 0:38:14.520 --> 0:38:17.799 I wonder if sometimes the discourse about men and women 0:38:17.920 --> 0:38:22.919 is like we've moved past this. Oh yeah, but anyway, yeah, 0:38:23.040 --> 0:38:25.520 what do you think women have an ape in them? 0:38:25.920 --> 0:38:27.320 I mean I have met women who. 0:38:27.320 --> 0:38:31.040 I think women definitely do and look like. It's it's 0:38:31.080 --> 0:38:35.319 such a huge and great and complex question because it 0:38:35.320 --> 0:38:39.879 also then comes to versus nurture and not to go 0:38:39.920 --> 0:38:41.680 into a whole other tangent. 0:38:41.320 --> 0:38:44.200 But dangerous sight of all this, it's just not really 0:38:44.280 --> 0:38:45.359 what I was talking about. No. 0:38:45.600 --> 0:38:49.160 I also think because sometimes a conversation that I've had 0:38:49.200 --> 0:38:53.960 with a few people about often if a father might 0:38:54.320 --> 0:38:58.360 abandon his children, which is something that obviously does happen, 0:38:58.400 --> 0:39:01.360 where mothers will abandon all maybe not even abandon, but 0:39:01.440 --> 0:39:03.840 just a strange if there's a separation. We do find 0:39:03.920 --> 0:39:08.759 sometimes it's still happening, even in this time where fortunately 0:39:09.120 --> 0:39:12.200 we're acknowledging, thank goodness that you know, being a father 0:39:12.400 --> 0:39:15.000 is just as important as being a mother, But it 0:39:15.200 --> 0:39:21.040 still sometimes seems to be slightly more common for a 0:39:21.080 --> 0:39:23.839 man to sort of disconnect from his children than a mother. 0:39:23.880 --> 0:39:26.239 And I don't have the answer to that either, because 0:39:26.239 --> 0:39:30.200 I'm like, is there some sort of sociological underpinning or 0:39:30.320 --> 0:39:32.600 is it more? And I think it's the same with. 0:39:35.000 --> 0:39:37.439 Such a huge because the other thing is people want 0:39:37.440 --> 0:39:40.359 to separate culture from evolution, but culture has evolved too, 0:39:40.480 --> 0:39:45.040 so culture arose out of evolved attribute. So some dude 0:39:45.040 --> 0:39:47.120 didn't one day go I'm going to do a patriarchy 0:39:47.160 --> 0:39:49.839 like people like people talk about the patriarchis if like 0:39:49.920 --> 0:39:52.879 a dude one day like rota a thing, Like I've 0:39:52.880 --> 0:39:55.640 got an idea, let's like oppress all they're not strong 0:39:55.719 --> 0:39:58.920 enough to stand like it's just emerged, right as no 0:39:58.960 --> 0:40:03.000 one's fault. It wasn't. It's not like it's certainly not 0:40:03.280 --> 0:40:05.759 the fault of contemporary males that there has been a 0:40:05.760 --> 0:40:09.080 patriarchy for so long. It's certainly the obligation of contemporary 0:40:09.120 --> 0:40:13.400 males to mitigate it. But the idea that yeah. So 0:40:13.480 --> 0:40:16.160 it's like the idea that we're like, well, is it 0:40:16.200 --> 0:40:19.080 culture or is it nature? It's like, well, they're very 0:40:19.160 --> 0:40:22.959 woven together. Culture came out of nature and they've never 0:40:23.040 --> 0:40:26.000 really been separate. So I find that conversation interesting. Anyway, 0:40:26.960 --> 0:40:28.920 you come up with an idea for a song that 0:40:29.080 --> 0:40:32.640 taps into something you've experienced, but from that point forward 0:40:32.680 --> 0:40:36.440 it's craft. So lonely tonight, is it really? If I 0:40:36.480 --> 0:40:39.080 may be so bold, it's not a pop song. It 0:40:39.080 --> 0:40:42.000 doesn't go to a chorus. It's a story. It's very 0:40:42.280 --> 0:40:46.160 much a me type of song where it has repeated phrases, 0:40:47.360 --> 0:40:49.879 but it's on a journey. You're never like, okay, I've 0:40:49.920 --> 0:40:51.919 got the full measure of you know, most pop songs 0:40:51.960 --> 0:40:53.719 you're like, okay, I've got it. There'll be another verse, 0:40:53.719 --> 0:40:55.640 but it will basically say the same thing with different words, 0:40:56.040 --> 0:40:58.440 Whereas I try to write songs where you haven't got 0:40:58.520 --> 0:41:02.040 story till the very last note, and it's craft right. 0:41:02.200 --> 0:41:04.720 So I'm trying to write a song about a person 0:41:04.760 --> 0:41:06.759 who's trying to not have sex with a woman. I'm 0:41:06.800 --> 0:41:10.080 not writing a song about me. I'm tapping into some 0:41:10.440 --> 0:41:14.880 a feeling I've had. I mean, it's pretty, it's definitely tapping. 0:41:14.920 --> 0:41:18.799 It's autobiographical, but it's not specifically so it's like, what's 0:41:18.840 --> 0:41:22.600 a good song about this experience I've had? And so 0:41:22.719 --> 0:41:26.520 the song is in service Sorry, the details are in 0:41:26.520 --> 0:41:29.200 service to the song. The song is not in service 0:41:29.239 --> 0:41:35.919 to bio biography. The other thing is, oh, I can't 0:41:35.920 --> 0:41:39.920 remember what I was gonna say, but I guess, I guess. 0:41:40.600 --> 0:41:46.480 Oh about sharing the self, about being so open. So 0:41:46.600 --> 0:41:48.880 even though there is craft, I definitely have made my 0:41:49.000 --> 0:41:51.279 living out of being quite open, even in interviews like this, 0:41:51.400 --> 0:41:53.480 and I just don't know how else to be. And 0:41:53.520 --> 0:41:55.440 I'm lucky enough to be married to someone who's like 0:41:56.880 --> 0:41:59.800 but really it's still a brand. I don't tell anyone. 0:42:00.080 --> 0:42:03.080 No one really knows who Sarah and I are. I mean, 0:42:03.120 --> 0:42:07.320 the old docco was pretty revealing, but you know, you 0:42:08.320 --> 0:42:13.000 can hold It's weird. We have a lot of privacy. 0:42:13.160 --> 0:42:15.600 I mean, do people really know anything about me and sir? 0:42:15.719 --> 0:42:16.000 Really? 0:42:16.960 --> 0:42:20.400 And that's my choice. And a huge part is if 0:42:20.440 --> 0:42:25.400 I was like super hot, I would be fodder. But 0:42:25.440 --> 0:42:27.480 there's something about the fact that I got known as 0:42:27.480 --> 0:42:29.200 a composer, so I didn't get known as like, I'm 0:42:29.200 --> 0:42:31.279 a pretty good actor and stuff, but if I look 0:42:31.400 --> 0:42:33.480 like Brad Pitt, it's to be all over us all 0:42:33.520 --> 0:42:35.600 the time, because that's what people want to feed off. 0:42:35.640 --> 0:42:38.320 They want to feed off this sort of camelot myth. 0:42:39.239 --> 0:42:41.959 And I've never fitted into the camelot myths simply because 0:42:41.960 --> 0:42:44.680 I'm I'm not a Hemsworth, and they just don't feed 0:42:44.719 --> 0:42:47.840 off people like me because I'm a pseudo intellectual composer 0:42:47.920 --> 0:42:50.960 with a funny head, you know. And it just means. 0:42:52.640 --> 0:42:56.680 You also don't play it for I don't know if 0:42:56.719 --> 0:42:58.879 fall into the trappings of fame is a fair way 0:42:59.040 --> 0:43:01.640 for me to put it. But you've come into the 0:43:01.640 --> 0:43:03.640 studio today completely on your own. 0:43:04.800 --> 0:43:06.000 I have my security. 0:43:07.680 --> 0:43:11.920 Escala is waiting in the way. I just didn't know 0:43:11.960 --> 0:43:14.239 about it. But I think also that and this is 0:43:14.280 --> 0:43:17.600 certainly something that honestly some of the biggest stars in 0:43:17.640 --> 0:43:19.839 the world I've talked about. I mean, you mentioned Brad Peter. 0:43:19.920 --> 0:43:23.080 I think he has, for instance, commented that sometimes you 0:43:23.120 --> 0:43:25.240 can make a choice to maybe walk through an airport 0:43:25.440 --> 0:43:28.000 and maybe not be noticed, even if you are Brad Pitt, 0:43:28.040 --> 0:43:30.960 if you don't necessarily have the entourage, And that's what 0:43:30.960 --> 0:43:33.279 I meant by the sort of quote unquote trappings of fame. 0:43:33.320 --> 0:43:36.400 So I think that's probably something you've also, I imagine, 0:43:36.440 --> 0:43:37.759 consciously helped. 0:43:37.800 --> 0:43:40.720 Without aim, and I've done. I made lots of decisions 0:43:40.760 --> 0:43:44.359 in my life. I've written about this before. I'm very 0:43:44.440 --> 0:43:46.960 ambitious in a kind of like I want to have 0:43:47.000 --> 0:43:49.000 a career that no one's ever had, where I get 0:43:49.000 --> 0:43:50.400 to make a TV show and write a book. And 0:43:50.560 --> 0:43:55.200 I'm sort of pretentiously ambitious as a polymath, right, I 0:43:55.280 --> 0:43:58.319 want to be, like what else can I do? I'm 0:43:58.360 --> 0:44:01.080 not ambitious to be super famous and rich. And I 0:44:01.120 --> 0:44:03.640 can say that because I'm famous enough and rich enough. 0:44:03.680 --> 0:44:06.440 So it's all very well saying I've capped myself, but 0:44:06.480 --> 0:44:12.200 I've capped myself very comfortably. But like, it all feeds 0:44:12.200 --> 0:44:15.919 into it. So my choice not to shag other women 0:44:15.960 --> 0:44:18.200 in your hotel rooms, which is what that song's about, 0:44:18.560 --> 0:44:20.640 is part of it. Who do you want to be? 0:44:20.640 --> 0:44:26.360 Because temptation, gender aside and everything. What you're being tempted 0:44:26.400 --> 0:44:28.640 by is a life that you didn't think you'd ever 0:44:29.600 --> 0:44:35.120 That's what happened to me at twenty nine, spending my 0:44:35.160 --> 0:44:38.440 thirties like I'm a self taught music from Perth. I 0:44:38.480 --> 0:44:40.960 never got a grant, never got a scholarship, never got 0:44:41.239 --> 0:44:44.880 an agent, saying I see talenting. You just crawled my 0:44:44.960 --> 0:44:48.279 way up, just hour after hour after hour of not 0:44:48.360 --> 0:44:51.840 being very good until I got reasonably good at some stuff. 0:44:52.480 --> 0:45:00.840 And I don't suddenly being offered a life that you 0:45:00.920 --> 0:45:05.360 might have fantasized about when you were eighteen, and opportunities 0:45:05.400 --> 0:45:11.520 with sex and just having famous friends. It's like, you 0:45:11.600 --> 0:45:14.399 have to make your choice, because the most common thing 0:45:14.400 --> 0:45:17.320 to happen to someone if they get famous at thirty 0:45:17.400 --> 0:45:20.799 is they leave their partner. It's got to be seventy percent, right, 0:45:20.920 --> 0:45:25.560 and I don't blame them. It's discombobulating. I'm so lucky 0:45:25.600 --> 0:45:27.600 that Sarah just happened to be the sort of personality 0:45:27.680 --> 0:45:29.800 is like, okay with this, now, fine, what do you 0:45:29.840 --> 0:45:33.880 need me to do? Like, we're so lucky and I 0:45:33.880 --> 0:45:36.480 don't have She's not someone who had a big career 0:45:36.480 --> 0:45:39.239 ambitions for herself, so she folded herself into this mad 0:45:39.280 --> 0:45:41.880 world we ended up in, but not She didn't give 0:45:41.880 --> 0:45:44.160 a shit about famous people or the money or what 0:45:44.239 --> 0:45:46.120 car she was going to drive. She was just like, well, 0:45:46.680 --> 0:45:48.360 we want to have kids and stay together. So what 0:45:48.400 --> 0:45:50.200 do we do? And I'm like, well, ill tour and 0:45:50.239 --> 0:45:53.799 you do anything else? And she's like, got it, And 0:45:53.840 --> 0:45:56.399 we've been doing that and that's just luck. It's just luck. 0:45:57.600 --> 0:45:59.440 But I also really love her and I hate to 0:46:00.719 --> 0:46:05.120 heard her, you know, So that's luck. That's luck as 0:46:05.160 --> 0:46:08.719 well that I've got those feelings. If she annoyed me more, 0:46:08.800 --> 0:46:11.160 I would have cheated on her. I mean, Jesus, it's 0:46:11.200 --> 0:46:14.359 just life, right, And if I had annoyed her more, 0:46:14.440 --> 0:46:16.040 she would have cheated on me, if I'd taken the 0:46:16.080 --> 0:46:17.839 piss like this. 0:46:17.880 --> 0:46:22.239 Is chic that made ye made before I let you go, 0:46:22.320 --> 0:46:23.319 and I do have to let you go. 0:46:23.320 --> 0:46:23.520 I do. 0:46:23.640 --> 0:46:25.759 I have to ask you about musicals. I know we 0:46:26.120 --> 0:46:29.520 mentioned Matilda and of course Groundhog Day. I mean they 0:46:29.719 --> 0:46:33.040 were massive, massive, massive hits. 0:46:33.000 --> 0:46:35.959 One more than the other. But thank you for ground 0:46:36.000 --> 0:46:38.440 of Days, a big critical hit. 0:46:39.080 --> 0:46:45.480 And you also played Judas in Jesus Christ, superstar favorite musical, 0:46:46.000 --> 0:46:47.440 mine my. 0:46:47.560 --> 0:46:49.040 Favorite after Matilda, I imagine. 0:46:49.200 --> 0:46:53.840 Yeah, of course in twenty twelve, that was an arena 0:46:54.080 --> 0:46:59.600 to your opposite spice girl melt c who played Mary Magdalene. 0:47:00.239 --> 0:47:05.080 How was that experience, you know, playing that's a musical 0:47:05.080 --> 0:47:08.840 that was written in the seventies. Obviously, Andrew Lloyd Weber, 0:47:08.880 --> 0:47:12.000 Tim Rice, So you're coming in, you are not composing 0:47:12.080 --> 0:47:14.480 that music. You did not write the lyrics, you did 0:47:14.520 --> 0:47:19.160 not write the book craft the narrative was that liberating? 0:47:19.239 --> 0:47:21.759 And are we going to see you in another musical soon? 0:47:22.200 --> 0:47:26.480 Well? All my life, I've wanted to play Judas in 0:47:26.680 --> 0:47:28.960 Jesus Christ Superstar, Like I used to just sit and 0:47:29.000 --> 0:47:31.160 sing the whole. I wanted to play Jesus as well, 0:47:31.200 --> 0:47:34.839 but I really wanted to play Judas. And I would 0:47:34.840 --> 0:47:38.120 just put the record on in my parents' lound room 0:47:38.160 --> 0:47:40.360 while everyone was out and had a high ceiling so 0:47:40.440 --> 0:47:45.080 it was forgiving and tiles so it's nice and echoic, 0:47:45.480 --> 0:47:48.399 and I would sing the whole frickin thing. And then 0:47:48.480 --> 0:47:51.560 when I was like eighteen nineteen, I did a amateur 0:47:51.680 --> 0:47:56.680 version at the Quarry in Perth, and I understudied Judas 0:47:57.560 --> 0:48:00.600 and so I got to like do a couple of rehearsals. 0:48:01.400 --> 0:48:04.360 And then two years later I did another version with 0:48:04.440 --> 0:48:06.319 Angry Anderson in it, not the big one, but he 0:48:06.400 --> 0:48:09.040 was still doing it, and a guy called Rick Herbert 0:48:09.080 --> 0:48:11.080 played Judas, and I understudied it and that was a 0:48:11.080 --> 0:48:13.440 pro am one and we did it is His Majesty's 0:48:13.440 --> 0:48:16.120 in Perth and I understudied Judas again, but this time 0:48:16.160 --> 0:48:19.239 the whole rehearsal period I played Judas because Rick wasn't 0:48:19.239 --> 0:48:22.279 flying in. They were parachuting him in from the same 0:48:22.360 --> 0:48:27.680 production in the East, and I thought, I'm never going 0:48:27.719 --> 0:48:28.880 to and I never got to do it. I never 0:48:29.000 --> 0:48:33.000 I never went on as Judas, but in the rehearsal 0:48:33.080 --> 0:48:40.480 room in Perth in nineteen ninety six, I could. I 0:48:40.600 --> 0:48:43.279 made the rest of the cast cry doing I don't 0:48:43.360 --> 0:48:47.600 know how to love him, and I thought, I just 0:48:47.680 --> 0:48:49.480 know how to do this guy. I don't think I 0:48:49.520 --> 0:48:51.399 can sing it. It's too high for me. I can't 0:48:51.400 --> 0:48:53.239 sing at seven shows a week. I'll never get to 0:48:53.239 --> 0:48:55.839 do it. I just want to do it once. And 0:48:55.920 --> 0:48:59.200 then I was behind Lloyd sitting in front of Lloyd 0:48:59.200 --> 0:49:01.640 Weber at the opening night of a Canadian version of 0:49:02.000 --> 0:49:05.000 Superstar that went in onto Broadway when I was over 0:49:05.000 --> 0:49:07.480 there doing Matilda. I went to the opening and the 0:49:07.520 --> 0:49:11.919 guy was good, but I was like, I can do that. 0:49:13.200 --> 0:49:15.959 And it took me weeks, but I eventually wrote to Andrew, 0:49:16.000 --> 0:49:18.759 who I had a relationship with because Matilda is in 0:49:18.760 --> 0:49:20.560 one of his theaters. I knew him quite well by then, 0:49:20.680 --> 0:49:22.080 but it took me weeks. I wrote the email and 0:49:22.080 --> 0:49:24.360 it sat in the things. I went, Oh, if you 0:49:24.400 --> 0:49:26.640 know I'm a comedian, I can't really sing like that. 0:49:27.560 --> 0:49:29.879 I wrote him an email. Eventually I sent it and went, Andrew, 0:49:29.920 --> 0:49:31.880 I just want I like seeing you at Superstar. I 0:49:31.880 --> 0:49:33.560 just want you to know I've always wanted to play 0:49:33.640 --> 0:49:36.719 Judas and if you ever get another version up, can 0:49:36.760 --> 0:49:40.200 I just have an audition, just an audition? And he 0:49:40.239 --> 0:49:42.600 wrote back and went, I wish you'd told me this 0:49:42.840 --> 0:49:46.480 two weeks ago. We've just cast Seal in an arena version, 0:49:46.880 --> 0:49:48.879 and I went, A part of me was like Doult, 0:49:48.960 --> 0:49:51.640 but also I'm like Seal. I can't sing like Seal. 0:49:51.680 --> 0:49:53.480 It's an arena version, as if I'm going to get 0:49:53.520 --> 0:49:57.840 to do that, And then the best phone call of 0:49:57.840 --> 0:49:59.799 my life, like this is given all the things I've 0:49:59.800 --> 0:50:01.799 got to to do in my life. Literally, I think 0:50:01.840 --> 0:50:04.839 the most excited I've ever been because it's so uncomplicated. Right, 0:50:05.040 --> 0:50:07.399 that's a dream, as a dream I dared not have. 0:50:08.719 --> 0:50:11.120 I didn't really I dreamed of a little version, and 0:50:11.200 --> 0:50:14.400 that's that's what is worth, noting I dreamed of a 0:50:14.400 --> 0:50:16.680 little version. The dream I got was the big version, 0:50:16.719 --> 0:50:19.319 but that wasn't because I aimed for it. I got 0:50:19.320 --> 0:50:23.080 this email from Lloyd Webber's kind of CEO, Barney, saying, 0:50:23.239 --> 0:50:26.040 Seals dropped out. We start rehearsal in two weeks. I 0:50:26.040 --> 0:50:28.840 don't suppose you can still do it. And I said, 0:50:30.040 --> 0:50:33.719 I mean, I'm available, which was unbelievable that I was available, 0:50:35.600 --> 0:50:39.279 but you have to audition me. And Barney's like, oh no, 0:50:40.719 --> 0:50:42.920 you know, they just wanted a celeb, you know, and 0:50:42.960 --> 0:50:46.000 I'm I'm not doing it without your auditioning me, and 0:50:46.040 --> 0:50:50.400 they went, okay, come in to Lloyd Webber's office this afternoon. 0:50:50.600 --> 0:50:54.040 So I go down and the pianist musical director Nigel. 0:50:54.120 --> 0:50:56.800 They've had a little piano in a glass vestibule in 0:50:57.400 --> 0:51:00.520 Lloyd Webber's office, and Andrew's there. They're all just dragged 0:51:00.520 --> 0:51:02.359 in because I insisted they didn't want to be there. 0:51:02.560 --> 0:51:05.600 And I do Judas's death to a piano on the 0:51:05.680 --> 0:51:10.799 on the paving stones of their office, which is my god, 0:51:10.920 --> 0:51:14.040 I saw him. He looked through Card's dad and it 0:51:14.160 --> 0:51:16.279 ends with the suicide and I'm just doing it. And 0:51:16.440 --> 0:51:19.279 on the ground crying, and they're all assume, theyre going, 0:51:19.960 --> 0:51:21.960 we didn't need you to do this, but I'm like, 0:51:22.120 --> 0:51:24.320 I'm not doing it without you. I'm not doing it 0:51:24.360 --> 0:51:27.240 because I'm a celeb. I need to do it because 0:51:27.360 --> 0:51:29.640 you believe. You've got to see what I'm going to do. 0:51:30.960 --> 0:51:33.000 And then you know, I turn up the first rehearsal, 0:51:33.000 --> 0:51:35.520 of course I know every note and a couple of 0:51:35.560 --> 0:51:37.160 the ways I sing it. They're like, that's not how 0:51:37.160 --> 0:51:40.759 it goes, and I'm like, is now now, guys, And 0:51:40.800 --> 0:51:43.920 it was just the best experience, the best experience. I 0:51:44.080 --> 0:51:47.680 just it changed my life because it gave me trust 0:51:47.680 --> 0:51:49.920 in my voice. I've always had a really complicated relationship 0:51:49.960 --> 0:51:53.439 with my voice, and it's still complicated, but it kicked 0:51:53.480 --> 0:51:56.719 me through to just believing I believe in what I 0:51:56.760 --> 0:51:58.600 know now that I'm good at, which is I can 0:51:58.640 --> 0:52:02.160 tell stories in songs. I can't sing like you know, 0:52:03.400 --> 0:52:06.359 but I can tell the truth in a song, and 0:52:07.160 --> 0:52:09.439 telling the truth in a song on a massive screen 0:52:09.480 --> 0:52:12.600 in front of ten thousand people, like crying and tearing 0:52:12.600 --> 0:52:16.000 yourself apart. It's just it's why you do It's it's 0:52:16.440 --> 0:52:18.640 it's an active empathy, you know, It's an active compassion. 0:52:18.640 --> 0:52:20.160 What would I feel like if I was this guy 0:52:21.080 --> 0:52:24.839 who's gone so wrong? You know that he needs to 0:52:25.120 --> 0:52:29.520 kill himself out of guilt like such an amazing It's 0:52:29.520 --> 0:52:31.600 a difference between an actor and an actor. Is that 0:52:31.600 --> 0:52:33.000 that we get off on that ship. 0:52:34.040 --> 0:52:38.160 It's you know, Superstars being revived on the stage this year, 0:52:38.360 --> 0:52:42.520 So you know, I think you could got another few 0:52:42.560 --> 0:52:45.319 performances of Judas in you I do well. 0:52:45.360 --> 0:52:50.080 I think when they would like to direct it, probably 0:52:50.080 --> 0:52:51.000 I should spend my time. 0:52:50.960 --> 0:52:55.760 Writing and could I audition then Mary Magdalen. My moment 0:52:55.840 --> 0:53:01.720 of mailing Lloyd wherever an amazing. It's that for people 0:53:02.440 --> 0:53:07.480 that aren't familiar with Jesus Christ, Superstar going it's on online. 0:53:07.520 --> 0:53:10.040 You can get there was it was released. 0:53:10.320 --> 0:53:13.239 Yeah, I just remember watching a taped version of a 0:53:13.280 --> 0:53:16.480 theater show that is a musical about the death of Christ. 0:53:16.960 --> 0:53:20.640 It will take you a few minutes to uncringe. Just 0:53:20.920 --> 0:53:23.080 sit with it and you'll be in it. 0:53:23.200 --> 0:53:25.759 I mean, it's true, I like you, have loved that 0:53:25.960 --> 0:53:28.520 my whole life, and sometimes I would like explain it 0:53:28.560 --> 0:53:40.200 to people, exactly explain what an opening I mean when 0:53:40.239 --> 0:53:47.399 you hear I'm sorry apologized. Yes, it's so good, and 0:53:47.440 --> 0:53:50.919 then the because obviously Judas then comes out and does 0:53:51.000 --> 0:53:57.120 Heaven on their minds and it's like that last too, well, 0:53:57.400 --> 0:54:00.520 it's so good, it's so good. I'm sorry. I just 0:54:00.560 --> 0:54:05.279 completely musical theater out on you, because I would do 0:54:05.320 --> 0:54:08.280 a whole Tim mentioned thank you so much for coming 0:54:08.280 --> 0:54:11.040 into the studio today. I'm so fabulous to talk to you. 0:54:11.160 --> 0:54:12.480 It really has to be again. 0:54:12.520 --> 0:54:13.360 Let's do it annually. 0:54:13.600 --> 0:54:16.640 Let's please do, Please do. And Tim's new book, You 0:54:16.680 --> 0:54:18.880 Don't Have to Have a Dream is available to pre 0:54:19.040 --> 0:54:21.839 order online now and will be available in bookstores and 0:54:21.880 --> 0:54:24.480 online this Tuesday. He's also going to tour around the 0:54:24.520 --> 0:54:26.200 country from the end of the month, and you can 0:54:26.239 --> 0:54:29.960 find more details about that. A conversation with Tim mentioned 0:54:29.960 --> 0:54:32.719 there as well. I would actually should have asked you, 0:54:32.719 --> 0:54:35.120 are there any questions you're hoping to be asked on stage? 0:54:35.120 --> 0:54:36.040 And I didn't get to. 0:54:37.880 --> 0:54:40.919 I don't know, but what I as you can tell, 0:54:41.840 --> 0:54:44.280 as you can tell from this podcast, I'm easily drawn 0:54:44.320 --> 0:54:48.480 on the things what did you call the issue of 0:54:48.520 --> 0:54:51.160 our time? And it's very hard when you're our age 0:54:51.200 --> 0:54:54.640 and you've had teenage kids to not gnash your teeth 0:54:54.680 --> 0:54:57.200 about where you feel things are going wrong right now. 0:54:58.080 --> 0:55:00.200 But one of the lessons in my book is find 0:55:00.239 --> 0:55:02.960 yourself by what you love. And that's the one I 0:55:03.000 --> 0:55:06.720 find hardest because it's very easy, especially if you're engaged online, 0:55:07.080 --> 0:55:11.320 to notice what's wrong and compare yourself with others and 0:55:12.920 --> 0:55:18.400 spend your whole time just rubbing up against the dissonance. 0:55:19.360 --> 0:55:22.080 And although there's good in that, because you need to 0:55:22.120 --> 0:55:24.759 agitate for change if you see, as Matilda says, if 0:55:24.800 --> 0:55:27.680 that's not right, you've got to put it right. But 0:55:28.719 --> 0:55:31.759 you can't live your whole life just defining yourself in 0:55:31.800 --> 0:55:34.439 opposition to things. And that's the lesson I'm trying to take. 0:55:34.640 --> 0:55:37.040 So when I talk on stage, I want to go 0:55:37.120 --> 0:55:41.839 in with the attitude that my job in this book 0:55:41.880 --> 0:55:44.680 and when speaking to people is to remind people that 0:55:45.120 --> 0:55:47.560 engaging with their passions and with the beauty of the 0:55:47.600 --> 0:55:51.640 world is really, really important, especially for late millennials and 0:55:51.680 --> 0:55:55.759 Gen z. Statistically, they really don't know how to do it, 0:55:56.680 --> 0:55:59.120 to be optimistic, to look at the beauty in the world. 0:55:59.200 --> 0:56:01.799 And so I really want to try and go from 0:56:01.840 --> 0:56:05.160 being a bit of an agitator myself to aging into 0:56:05.719 --> 0:56:10.680 a more Vonnegushan sort of loved up old hippie. 0:56:10.880 --> 0:56:13.440 Or well, we will revisit that on our and next 0:56:13.680 --> 0:56:15.200 your podcast. Thanks to you. 0:56:15.120 --> 0:56:17.840 Again, see your next September. 0:56:19.320 --> 0:56:21.359 And you Don't Have to Have a Dream by Tim 0:56:21.400 --> 0:56:24.879 Minchin is out on September ten. It's available for pre 0:56:25.080 --> 0:56:27.360 order and now we have a link in our show notes. 0:56:27.719 --> 0:56:30.600 Thank you for your company. I hope you've enjoyed this episode. 0:56:30.680 --> 0:56:33.400 If you did, please make sure you're following us because 0:56:33.440 --> 0:56:36.360 we'll be back with another exclusive guest on Something to 0:56:36.400 --> 0:56:37.680 Talk About next week.