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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to The Australian's Money Puzzle podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: James Kirby, the editor at the Australian. Welcome aboard everybody

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Speaker 1: you know. For a long time on this show, we

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Speaker 1: have supported big industry super funds and we have said

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Speaker 1: regularly that they perform well, and they do over a

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Speaker 1: ten year period, and that they are cheap. That is,

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Speaker 1: the expenses that they have and what they charge you

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Speaker 1: the investor is quite reasonable. Part of that is because

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Speaker 1: they don't have to make a profit they are not

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Speaker 1: for profit industry funds. But always added the caveat that

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Speaker 1: they are alone to themselves. They're very big fish in

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Speaker 1: a small pond. They're not particularly answerable to any regulator.

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Speaker 1: In particular, they're not particularly answerable to their own investors.

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Speaker 1: And sooner or later this was going to be trouble

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Speaker 1: and Sebus, the big industry super fund, really has spoils

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Speaker 1: party here. They have about nine hundred and thirty thousand members,

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Speaker 1: about ninety four billion under assets, big operation and behave

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Speaker 1: so badly basically behind the scenes in terms of not

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Speaker 1: delivering due payments to death benefits and disability payments the

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Speaker 1: most basically it's the most vulnerable people and investors in

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Speaker 1: their group. That ACID had to go as far as

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Speaker 1: taking them to court and suing them for allegations of

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Speaker 1: problems in this area. So this sort of bursts the bubble,

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Speaker 1: I think to would agree on big super and there

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Speaker 1: has been in and around the same time a whole

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Speaker 1: string of incidents. Cebus isn't the only one unisuper. Their

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Speaker 1: site was out for days some months ago where people

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Speaker 1: couldn't see their super couldn't see what they have. Art

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Speaker 1: Australian Retirement which is the second largest super fund in

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Speaker 1: the market, they had delays for days of pensioner payments

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Speaker 1: and in common with these issues I just mentioned at

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Speaker 1: the other funds, they don't advertise this, they don't tell

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Speaker 1: you about this, they tell you if you're affected. But basically,

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Speaker 1: onto the current system they're able to quietly try and

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Speaker 1: put out these spotfires as they occur. The issue now,

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Speaker 1: of course, is that ASEK has really put this on

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Speaker 1: the table and the ACIC Deputy chair Sarah Court, is

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Speaker 1: saying that there's going to be more action on this,

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Speaker 1: and even as I speak to you today this morning,

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Speaker 1: literally an hour or so before we started to sit

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Speaker 1: down and record this show. Hesta big fund that's traditionally

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Speaker 1: associated with hospital workers and nurses, is also in trouble,

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Speaker 1: can you believe for an entirely different issue. But it's

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Speaker 1: got to do with their unlisted assets and the greet

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Speaker 1: which they mark them down and didn't mark them down

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Speaker 1: in a coordinated fashion back at the time of the

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Speaker 1: COVID crisis. So it's really all starting to turn and

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Speaker 1: I want to look at this, and I want to

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Speaker 1: also look at property unlisted assets on the investment side.

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Speaker 1: Unlisted assets are the big mystery at industry funds. They

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Speaker 1: have been useful to them, but they also are very

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Speaker 1: opaque and it's very hard to get steer on how

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Speaker 1: much they have, how much they're worth, except to say

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Speaker 1: that in commercial property, certainly there's a lot of problems

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Speaker 1: starting to form and SeaBus has had big losses there

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Speaker 1: and so have other funds. We'll put it all together,

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Speaker 1: I guess today is James Girard of Financial Advisor dot

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Speaker 1: com dot au. Hi, James, how are you hy?

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Speaker 2: James good? Thanks for having me on.

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Speaker 1: Good to have you on. I can't recall if we

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Speaker 1: spoke on air about industry funds before, but one of

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Speaker 1: the things we've talked about them, but we haven't talked

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Speaker 1: about what could go wrong. One of the things I

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Speaker 1: noticed that it's very clear in these scandals that are

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Speaker 1: breaking almost weekly on the big super funds is that

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Speaker 1: they used outsourced services. In the case of Cebus, they've

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Speaker 1: tried to turn the blowhort should you like, on link

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Speaker 1: market services which they had used. And I think in

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Speaker 1: some of the more recent scandals there's been other service

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Speaker 1: companies like Mercer has been mentioned in passing here. I

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Speaker 1: don't know about you, but I never take I have

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Speaker 1: no time for a company who blames the outsourced service

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Speaker 1: because they outsourced, right. I don't want to know. I

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Speaker 1: don't care. I don't even want to hear that they

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Speaker 1: outsourced it. It's their problem. I don't know if that's

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Speaker 1: a reasonable response. Do I sound reasonable? It is?

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Speaker 2: I agree with you. I don't think it really matters

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Speaker 2: how you get to the outcome. That's not that the

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Speaker 2: super members concern, whether it's done in house or it's outsourced.

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Speaker 2: It should be the timeframe and what happens at the

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Speaker 2: end of it, and there should be management there sort

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Speaker 2: of ensuring these timeframesmit whether they're in house or they're outsourced,

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Speaker 2: and it's funny that link has popped up and said, hey,

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Speaker 2: you know we outsource. Well, we do the outsourcing for

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Speaker 2: quite a few super funds on the insurance side, and

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Speaker 2: there's plenty of other customers that we have. They're all

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Speaker 2: meeting their KPIs with regards to processing times. We're just

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Speaker 2: following the instructions that you gave us, and so don't

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Speaker 2: blame us, go blame yourself.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, that's right. So one of the things that

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Speaker 1: for listeners, I'm sure many of our listeners have their savings.

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Speaker 1: Probably the most important financial dimension of their lives beyond

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Speaker 1: their homes if they own their homes, is their super

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Speaker 1: and we're seeing in each of these cases that there

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Speaker 1: are weaknesses being revealed as super funds, serious weaknesses. Now

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Speaker 1: in the case to see Bus in case you've missed it, folks,

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Speaker 1: it's worth actually just going through what on earth's going

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Speaker 1: on there. They are facing regulatory inquiry by both OPRA,

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Speaker 1: the prudential regulator unquestionable expense, questionable expenses. They're also basing

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Speaker 1: an acquiry from APRAA on the links and suitability of

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Speaker 1: personnel related to their union appointments through CFMU and then

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Speaker 1: they're facing a core case from ACIC about delays to payments,

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Speaker 1: And as a sort of rational financial person, I will say, okay,

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Speaker 1: I don't like any of that, but I look at

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Speaker 1: the ten year returns for c BUS and they're fine.

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Speaker 1: They're absolutely passable. They're about eight percent, and that's about

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Speaker 1: what you'd expect at most of those big funds. So

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Speaker 1: the investment formats to date, James hasn't been hit. But

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Speaker 1: as an advisor, like, do you are you concerned if

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Speaker 1: there's an organization and there's all sorts of problems at

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Speaker 1: the back office, are you concerned that could in some

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Speaker 1: way or could it interfere with their performance at the

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Speaker 1: front office where they're investing? You know, otherwords, could one

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Speaker 1: spoil the other? Could one poison the other?

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Speaker 2: Look, it's a flag or an indicator. You would suspect

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Speaker 2: that the teams are very separate in terms of the

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Speaker 2: investment committee and the investment team versus the back office function.

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Speaker 2: But they're all governed by the same upper management. And

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Speaker 2: so it's a logical conclusion to go, all right, well,

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Speaker 2: if this part's not working, is that a systemic issue

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Speaker 2: with the superfund overall? Do they not have the right

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Speaker 2: management in the board to be able to make these

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Speaker 2: decisions across all different departments. And I think it's a

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Speaker 2: shame overall, because I like the competition that the industry

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Speaker 2: super funds bring, that they hold the retail accounts super

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Speaker 2: funds accountable and drive competition in the market, and it's

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Speaker 2: a shame to see that these things have come out

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Speaker 2: and that their conduct has been that that way, because

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Speaker 2: if anything, we want more super funds out there, driving

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Speaker 2: down costs and more competition for investors, rather than less

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Speaker 2: super funds. But one point I'd make is that industry

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Speaker 2: super funds are still a little bit in the bed

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Speaker 2: with the union. So when you look at the investment

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Speaker 2: committee and the board composition, I'm sort of painting a

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Speaker 2: broad brush here, but for several of the major industry

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Speaker 2: super funds, their management end directors are comprised of something

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Speaker 2: like half of independent directors and half linked to unions,

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Speaker 2: and so I sometimes question the I guess the governance

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Speaker 2: and the investment expertise that these super funds have given

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Speaker 2: that And probably this is too strong to say, but

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Speaker 2: it's not like a union junket, but there's definitely union

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Speaker 2: influence there and a lot of the major industry super funds,

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Speaker 2: which I don't particularly like.

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Speaker 1: So what you're bringing up is the credentials, if you like,

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Speaker 1: of these people at the top of the funds. And

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Speaker 1: I seel what you're saying, because once upon a time

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Speaker 1: when there were small funds, when there was a few

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Speaker 1: million in them, then maybe perhaps that was to be expected.

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Speaker 1: But now we're talking about gigantic organizations like Cebus as

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Speaker 1: ninety two billion dollars. Is everyone on the board across

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Speaker 1: all aspects of that money? Are they capable of sitting

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Speaker 1: on a board? Would they be put on another board

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Speaker 1: of another company that was valued at ninety two billion?

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Speaker 1: There's a question. I think it does. Puts it on

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Speaker 1: the line or right now, I want to What I

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Speaker 1: want to do is take short break and we're going

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Speaker 1: to come back and we're going to look at what

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Speaker 1: if you are facing this situation, if you are in

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Speaker 1: these funds, what you should be doing. Hello and welcome

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Speaker 1: back to The Australian's Money Puzzled podcast. I'm James Kirby

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Speaker 1: talking to James Gerard. Look, I suppose for most people, James,

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Speaker 1: they see these stories and they say, gosh, I don't

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Speaker 1: like that I see Unisuper. There was a problem with Unisuper.

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Speaker 1: If I was in Unisuper, I couldn't actually see my

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Speaker 1: super for a while, or at art my payments were

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Speaker 1: delayed for one reason or another. At Cebus, I can

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Speaker 1: hardly keep up with the number of investigations that's going

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Speaker 1: on in this fund. So what does someone do if

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Speaker 1: they're in one of those funds? And is it a

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Speaker 1: big trouble? Should they switch? And is it a big

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Speaker 1: trouble to switch?

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Speaker 2: I think it's a case of not overreacting in the

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Speaker 2: first instance, and not throwing out the baby with the

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Speaker 2: bath water. I think understanding what the issue is with

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Speaker 2: your particular super fun So I'd encourage people to read

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Speaker 2: James Kirby's articles in the WORL section of The Australian,

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Speaker 2: which covers all of these industry super fund issues.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to just jump in there about one think,

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Speaker 1: which is which I should mention, just to finish off

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Speaker 1: on SeaBus, because I didn't quite I didn't quite finish

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Speaker 1: off there. One of the things I didn't make that

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Speaker 1: point in the weekend was that morning Star, the International

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Speaker 1: Rating Agency, was not able to separate the cultural weaknesses.

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Speaker 1: If you like in their assessment of SeaBus, and specifically

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Speaker 1: when they were moving to downgrade their parent view of

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Speaker 1: SeaBus from average to below average, met the point that

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Speaker 1: they were uncomfortable with the personnel on the board, specifically

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Speaker 1: with the political links. So to that extent, that's a

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Speaker 1: financial agency not remotely interested in politics, which found that

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Speaker 1: they couldn't separate the two. So, coming full circle back

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Speaker 1: to that, I think we have to take it that

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Speaker 1: there is a point at which they crossed, and there's

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Speaker 1: a point in which one cuts into the other, and

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Speaker 1: they're not actually entirely autonomous. So develop what you're saying

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Speaker 1: there about how people should assess this. Not will react

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Speaker 1: fair enough, but at what point do you act?

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Speaker 2: So just finish plugging news I read James in The Australian,

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Speaker 2: and then it's about putting it into context, understanding what's

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Speaker 2: important for you in your super account and if you

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Speaker 2: have had delayed pension payments once in a ten year period,

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Speaker 2: you think okay, that's okay. But if there seems to

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Speaker 2: be more systemic problems and you have the government regulator

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Speaker 2: coming in, you have third party independent research houses coming

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Speaker 2: in putting out views, then you start to build a

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Speaker 2: bit of a case for well, is it that are

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Speaker 2: there alternatives that don't have the same scrutiny in issues

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Speaker 2: that are with my current fund, and would my retirement

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Speaker 2: savings be better being put elsewhere? And then if you

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Speaker 2: make that decision that yes, okay, I prefer to go

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Speaker 2: to another fund, then the next step is to understand

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Speaker 2: what will that cost you financially to move from one

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Speaker 2: super fund to another super fund, And in answering that,

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Speaker 2: it really depends on what stage you're in. If you're

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Speaker 2: in the accumulation stage, there's potentially a capital gains tax

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Speaker 2: will be triggered when you sell down all of the investments.

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Speaker 2: But then on the other hand, it may not be

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Speaker 2: triggered because most industry super funds are unitized, which continuously

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Speaker 2: calculate capital gains tax. So whatever you have as a

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Speaker 2: balot showing today, that's inclusive of any capital gains tax

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Speaker 2: that's continuously counted. And then it depends also if you

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Speaker 2: maybe you're in the pension phase where there's definitely no

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Speaker 2: tax implications. The next thing to consider is time out

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Speaker 2: of the market. It usually takes one to two weeks

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Speaker 2: for the current super fund to sell down your investment

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Speaker 2: you're in cash, there's a rollover request with the new

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Speaker 2: super account. It will usually take three to five days

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Speaker 2: to set up your new super account, so under normal

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Speaker 2: commercial timeframes, you might be out of the market from

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Speaker 2: one to three weeks, and if that the markets move

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Speaker 2: upwards over that period, you've lost out because you're sitting

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Speaker 2: in cash. But conversely, it can work out in your

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Speaker 2: favor if there's a downturn in the market. So that's

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Speaker 2: just a risk which could go for you or against you.

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Speaker 1: And there is one other issue, which is you're probably

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Speaker 1: insured by your super fund and if you switch, what happens?

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Speaker 1: Do you know?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, now that it's a great question. And some people

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Speaker 2: are unable to get new insurances, so it's of critical

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Speaker 2: importance that we keep their current insurances in play. So

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Speaker 2: some super funds will have takeover clauses where you can

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Speaker 2: port your current insurances over to the new one. But

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Speaker 2: if that doesn't work, it's not offered too difficult. You've

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Speaker 2: got options. You either look to take out insurance with

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Speaker 2: the new super fund. You can take out independent insurance

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Speaker 2: where with a retail standalone company and they'll link it

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Speaker 2: to super fun then request a payment once a year.

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Speaker 2: Or alternatively, you can keep a small residual balance in

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Speaker 2: your old super account and you need to contact the

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Speaker 2: super fund because every superfund is different, but it's usually

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Speaker 2: between five to ten thousand dollars that you need to

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Speaker 2: keep as a minimum balance, and you need to keep

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Speaker 2: the account active by either signing the form every year

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Speaker 2: and a half or putting a contribution in to keep

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Speaker 2: the insurance cover active in the old superfund.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's interesting. So if you keep the minimum a mountain,

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Speaker 1: so you could let's say a person has one hundred thousand,

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Speaker 1: they could take out eighty five and leave ten or

258
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Speaker 1: fifteen in there and then that could just tick along,

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Speaker 1: but in doing so, the insurance arranginess would tick along.

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Speaker 1: And if they switch funds, and can they choose not

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Speaker 1: to have insurance with the new.

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Speaker 2: Fund again, Yeah, it's part of the application form whether

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Speaker 2: you want to opt in or out of the automatic insurances.

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Speaker 1: Right. Okay, that's really interesting, so folks, that's really what

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Speaker 1: thinking about that issue, and very interesting what James said

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Speaker 1: that you can switch. Okay, if you're an accumulation that's

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Speaker 1: pre retirement, right, you can switch and most of the

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Speaker 1: funds unitize as they go, so actually, for once, capital

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Speaker 1: gains isn't an issue. You just slide across from fund

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Speaker 1: number one to fund number two. So the issue might

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Speaker 1: be the older you are, particularly the more the issue

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Speaker 1: of insurance will come up, because as you know, as

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Speaker 1: you get older, it costs more to be insured. And

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Speaker 1: if you walk in cold off the street, you're going

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Speaker 1: to pay a lot more than someone who was in

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Speaker 1: an arrangement and industrial relate arrangement if you like, for

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Speaker 1: a decade or two decades. So keep that in mind,

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Speaker 1: and it's it for everyone. We are not going to

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Speaker 1: we are not going to stand here actually and say

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Speaker 1: roll over from one fund to another. That's not how

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Speaker 1: we operate. But we would ask everyone to consider their

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Speaker 1: own situation and whether they think the fund that they're

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Speaker 1: in is good enough and it's the same fund that

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Speaker 1: they that they considered when they joined. And there are

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Speaker 1: people out there already suggesting that people roll over. I

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Speaker 1: would always say there's two sides to that. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's leaving and then that's where do you go. And

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Speaker 1: one of the things that's occurring with these incidents with

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Speaker 1: the super funds is that it's like any of these

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Speaker 1: stories when the damn bursts, they all come flying through.

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Speaker 1: So if you ask me who's in trouble last week,

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Speaker 1: I would have said art, Uni, Super and SEEBUS. This

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Speaker 1: week I have to add hest to that gang. So

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Speaker 1: it's not over yet. We are not quite clear as

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Speaker 1: to who the good guys are and who the bad

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Speaker 1: guys are. And that's only in terms of their management ability.

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Speaker 1: I would call it their non investment management ability. This

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Speaker 1: is where the issues are. The performance of the funds

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Speaker 1: have run broadly as you would expect them to so far.

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Speaker 1: So we haven't seen any fund infectedly beliked by these

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Speaker 1: incompetence in other parts of the organization. But there's time

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Speaker 1: for that. Okay, we'll take short break back in a minute. Hello,

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Speaker 1: welcome back to the Australian's Money Puzzle. I'm James Kirby

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Speaker 1: talking to James Gerard. We're talking to our surprise really

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Speaker 1: about a lot of the issues that have emerged in

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Speaker 1: recent days on the big super funds, and I thought,

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Speaker 1: folks that we really should cover that. It would be

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Speaker 1: remiss of us not to do so. Part of the

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Speaker 1: trouble at the funds, I said that their performance to

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Speaker 1: a large degree is are acting as one by that

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Speaker 1: I mean, there isn't an awful lot of difference in

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Speaker 1: the ten year timeframe if you look at how the

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Speaker 1: different big funds are performing. And I'm talking here all

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Speaker 1: the time about the industry funds, and they dominate Australian Super,

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Speaker 1: c Bus Host Plus, Unisuper. You know that you know them.

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Speaker 1: They never stop advertising. I'm sure you're familiar with them.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that has occurred though, is that

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Speaker 1: on the investment side, the big funds, also the industry funds.

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Speaker 1: One of their merits, or certainly one of their advantages,

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Speaker 1: had been that they have unlisted assets. That is, they

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Speaker 1: have a large way on listed assets, very simply their

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Speaker 1: assets that aren't on the share market that you can't

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Speaker 1: go and look up and find out about. And part

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Speaker 1: of that had been in commercial property. The property that

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Speaker 1: operator for the big funds is called ISPT and it

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Speaker 1: acts for It acts as an umbrella group for them.

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Speaker 1: It acts for Australian Super and SeaBus and UNI Super,

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Speaker 1: all those names I've just mentioned. They pooh their money

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Speaker 1: and ISPT is their operator in commercial property and they

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Speaker 1: released they had a two hundred million dollar loss last year.

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Speaker 1: They had a one point five billion dollar loss this year,

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Speaker 1: which tells you that the big super funds are exposed

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Speaker 1: quite heavily to commercial property and separately SeaBus, who are

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Speaker 1: so far the worst of the funds in relation to

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Speaker 1: their management issues just now. They have also had a

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Speaker 1: negative return in the last financial year. They did twelve

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Speaker 1: percent over a decade. That's really dropped and it's top

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Speaker 1: twenty two percent you see in the last three years,

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Speaker 1: so you can see that they're starting. The unlisted asset

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Speaker 1: side of the business for the big super funds are

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Speaker 1: starting to become a problem at the worst possible time,

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Speaker 1: you might say, James, What.

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Speaker 2: I observe over time with these unlisted assets is that

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Speaker 2: they're good for a smoothing effect because share markets can.

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Speaker 2: Listed share markets sometimes very volatile. They go up a lot,

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Speaker 2: they fall a lot, where these unlisted assets just tend

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Speaker 2: to chug along. And also the funds who own them

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Speaker 2: have the advantage of I guess a bit of valuation

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Speaker 2: bias or treatment that it's a little bit difficult to

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Speaker 2: value these investments on a daily basis, so sometimes they

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Speaker 2: might only be valued half yearly or yearly, which means

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Speaker 2: that if you have a short shock to share markets

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Speaker 2: like what we saw when COVID hit, and that recovers

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Speaker 2: a few months later that whole market downturn has been

355
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Speaker 2: in between saluation cycle of the unlisted asset, and so

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00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,719
Speaker 2: its value has been flat throughout that whole period.

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Speaker 1: What stabilizes the ship because it doesn't look as bad

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Speaker 1: because they don't have shares that are falling through the floor.

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Speaker 1: That's part of what happened that HESTER, really, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: That's part of the issue that they had to sooner

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Speaker 1: or later sort of adjust their evaluations. But their problem

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00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:25,359
Speaker 1: was that they did it in stages. This hasn't been

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Speaker 1: good enough, and this is the problem they've been hit with.

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Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah, it's unfortunate for those HESTER members because

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Speaker 2: my understanding from what I saw today was that they

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Speaker 2: HESTER had to revalue down and unlisted investment, and they

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Speaker 2: did so for part of the investment options that they had,

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Speaker 2: and then I think some members saw it and go, oh,

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Speaker 2: that went down a lot. I'm going to move over

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Speaker 2: to a different investment option, maybe one that hasn't fallen

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Speaker 2: by as much. So they switched out of the one

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Speaker 2: that had been readjusted to another one which they thought

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Speaker 2: was more stable. But it was just turned out that

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Speaker 2: one hadn't been adjusted yet, so then that one got

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Speaker 2: readjusted a week later, so they've got a double kit.

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Speaker 1: Gosh. Yeah, and there is always that thing of arbitrage.

377
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Speaker 1: But that's the problem, isn't it. Because they're unlisted, the customer,

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Speaker 1: the investor can't possibly know how much their own portfolio

379
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,639
Speaker 1: is worth. Yeah, and there's a point which they'll never

380
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,560
Speaker 1: know because they're unlisted and they won't know to the

381
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Speaker 1: day they put them for sale. Really, isn't that the

382
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Speaker 1: ultimate test?

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Speaker 2: That's the thing. Like these some of these assets are

384
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Speaker 2: very expensive for talking hundreds of millions of dollars type assets.

385
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,320
Speaker 2: There could be toll roads, there could be airports, and yeah,

386
00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:36,359
Speaker 2: these type of assets they don't sell every day, so

387
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,240
Speaker 2: you can have investment specialists and value as give opinions

388
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Speaker 2: as to what they're worth. But as you say, you

389
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,480
Speaker 2: don't really know until you actually sell the assets. So

390
00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:47,040
Speaker 2: you might be creating this false sense of security by

391
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:49,280
Speaker 2: thinking you have these assets, but when you go to

392
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Speaker 2: liquidate it, there's no one around wanting to pay the

393
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:52,800
Speaker 2: price that you thought it was worth.

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Speaker 1: Yes, So I think maybe to be fair to the funds,

395
00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:58,879
Speaker 1: the big funds and to listeners. The thing about the

396
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 1: industry funds is they are more dependent on on listed assets.

397
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Speaker 1: I know unlisted assets have their advantages in many ways,

398
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:09,600
Speaker 1: but beyond a doubt, part of the problem is that

399
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:14,560
Speaker 1: you can't fully or as easily understand exactly how much

400
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,440
Speaker 1: your portfolio in that fund is worth because they can't

401
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,880
Speaker 1: understand it, or they certainly won't reveal it unless they must.

402
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,600
Speaker 1: And that's an ongoing problem because of their dependency on

403
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:29,040
Speaker 1: these on disted aseids, much more so than for profit funds. Traditionally,

404
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 1: that is a big difference between the two funds. Okay,

405
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,119
Speaker 1: really interesting. We want to stay with this issue now

406
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,040
Speaker 1: and segue for once usefully into a question that relates

407
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,119
Speaker 1: to the show that we've just been doing. Quite a

408
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 1: detailed question. It's from Direct dr e K. I'll try

409
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:48,920
Speaker 1: to synopsize it as much as I can. We invest

410
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:53,159
Speaker 1: it in a privately helpbsidially fund of a sex listed

411
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 1: century capital called Censurre Health, and direct boat big time

412
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 1: basically into this fund, and the units were to generate

413
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:07,879
Speaker 1: six percent yield, and they used jointly held self managed

414
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 1: super funds. And of course the point I should have

415
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,359
Speaker 1: made the earlier part of the show is the obvious

416
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:17,160
Speaker 1: alternative if you are unhappy altogether with your industry fund

417
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,360
Speaker 1: or your big super fund of any description, is self

418
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 1: managed super We will leave that another day as to

419
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,240
Speaker 1: how suitable you might be to it and how much

420
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 1: you should have in it, but it is the obvious

421
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 1: ultimate sort of alternative to big super is self managed

422
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,480
Speaker 1: super funds that anyone can have if they're prepared to

423
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:38,439
Speaker 1: put in the time Now, Derek says, because the initial

424
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:42,160
Speaker 1: return of our investment was in line with the company brochure,

425
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,120
Speaker 1: we increased the investment with two additional payments. Soon after

426
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 1: the final payment, the unit prices started declining. Then we

427
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 1: started losing some money in our investment. Initially, we trusted

428
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 1: the fund they would overcome this weakness, and we kept

429
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,879
Speaker 1: our full support in it. Anfortunately, our judgment was wrong

430
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 1: and the unit prices continued to decline. In twenty twenty four,

431
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,159
Speaker 1: that's a few months ago, March twenty twenty four, we

432
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 1: asked for a complete withdrawal of our investment. At that

433
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,920
Speaker 1: time we held over and he gives a large number here,

434
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,159
Speaker 1: a dollar number. As soon as the redemption process started,

435
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 1: the price per units started plummeting. Down to seventy six

436
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 1: cents at the third redemption. Also, the number of units

437
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 1: in each redemption was ridiculously low. That is, they were

438
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 1: letting them only redeem a small amount. I expect at

439
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 1: the time, summarizing the amount of cash received and the

440
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,360
Speaker 1: current value of the remaining units, we've lost twenty five

441
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 1: percent of our initial investment. That's a terrible hit on

442
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 1: what should have been a steady property. Just to finish.

443
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,479
Speaker 1: Direk says. We thought multi billion dollar companies such as

444
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 1: a Tourer Capital was to be reputable and trust worth

445
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,880
Speaker 1: the ASX company and couldn't get it wrong. My question

446
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 1: is there anything that I can do to stop this? Okay,

447
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 1: first things first, there's nothing obviously inappropriate in this issue

448
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,439
Speaker 1: with this property truster or a reta as they call

449
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 1: them now at Centura. Commercial property has been in the

450
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 1: doghouse for some time now, and if a fund said

451
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,879
Speaker 1: that they expected things to improve, that could have been

452
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 1: a genuine expectation. They all want things to improve, they

453
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 1: don't want things to get worse. But the issue is

454
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 1: obviously with a fund when people start selling at the

455
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:26,920
Speaker 1: same time and they have redemptions, then that they have

456
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,880
Speaker 1: to manage that very slowly because the money is not there.

457
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,400
Speaker 1: It's as simple as that, and that happens at most

458
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 1: big funds. And though we tell people on the show

459
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 1: a million times this is the issue, it always surprises

460
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,119
Speaker 1: people that they can't get all their money out of

461
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 1: a big property fund. When things go the wrong way,

462
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:46,640
Speaker 1: they can't get it out on the day they wish

463
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,959
Speaker 1: You've read that fairly close to James. This is never advice.

464
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,399
Speaker 1: It's only information, as everyone knows. But if I was

465
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,440
Speaker 1: sitting opposite you and I said to you, Hey, James,

466
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 1: I've been in censura and I can't believe how badly

467
00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 1: it's gone. I've lost twenty five percent. Is there anything

468
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 1: you would say to me that I haven't thought of? There?

469
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 2: Probably would have started by saying that you should have

470
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,399
Speaker 2: seen me in twenty twenty when you first invested, and

471
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:09,639
Speaker 2: we would have discussed.

472
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm sure it would have been wonderful. But I've

473
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 1: talked to you in late twenty twenty four and I'm

474
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:16,639
Speaker 1: really pissed off because I've lost twenty five percent of

475
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 1: on my investment. Is there anything At first glance, as

476
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: I said, that seems to me very bad luck, bad timing,

477
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 1: particularly bad timing.

478
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 2: I guess it's important for people to have the right

479
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 2: time frame for these type of investments because even though

480
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,879
Speaker 2: it's property, it's healthcare related, it's still classified as a

481
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 2: growth investment. And so i'd start by saying that you

482
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,159
Speaker 2: should go into something like this if you have at

483
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:43,400
Speaker 2: least a five year timeframe, and it hasn't been five

484
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:47,199
Speaker 2: years yet, and appreciate you. They're still behind the initial

485
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 2: investment amount by quite a bit, but they should be

486
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 2: having at least a five to ten year timeframe on

487
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 2: this type of thing. And then that's because the fortunes

488
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 2: of this type of investment really swings from year to

489
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 2: year quite dramatically. And so if I use the index,

490
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 2: for example, there's a Vanguard ETFVAP which covers the whole

491
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 2: listed property and reach sector, so it'll have Goodman Group

492
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,880
Speaker 2: and at Move, Ecdexus, all these type of companies over

493
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 2: the past twelve months. If you put money in at

494
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,879
Speaker 2: this time a year ago, you'd be up forty percent.

495
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,119
Speaker 2: But then if you go back twelve months before that

496
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 2: and you put money into it, you would have been

497
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 2: down thirty percent. So even though it's property, you think

498
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 2: it's all commercial buildings and hospitals. It does swing quite

499
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,879
Speaker 2: wildly because there's these external factors which impact the value

500
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 2: of these investments. And so when it comes to property

501
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 2: and these type of property investments, one of the big

502
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 2: things that's an external factor in terms of what they're

503
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 2: worth is what's happening in the bond market. Because these

504
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,239
Speaker 2: type of property trusts are seen as what we call

505
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 2: in the finance world as a quote unquote bond proxy.

506
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 2: Investors will swing between bonds to generate yield and swing

507
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 2: to property trusts at the right time. And what we've

508
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:54,920
Speaker 2: seen over the past couple of years is the cash

509
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 2: rate go up, bond rates go up, and investors have

510
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 2: sold out of these type of property and healthcare trust

511
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:03,399
Speaker 2: and thus we're seeing these big drops.

512
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 1: This would partially explain the censure health yeah partly.

513
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I've reviewed and had to look into some

514
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 2: of the other healthcare property trust because our clients own them.

515
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 2: So one, for example, is Australian Unity. They have a

516
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 2: healthcare trust and that hasn't performed spectacularly over the past

517
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,919
Speaker 2: recent period, but over the long term it's notne absolutely fine,

518
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,160
Speaker 2: and so it's been this bond proxy issue. But Also

519
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 2: there's industry specific issues as well that's caused some headwinds

520
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 2: for these type of investments, which in time, you'd expect

521
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 2: them to resolve themselves. Looking at the long time frame,

522
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 2: things have been fine. But it's a difficult one for

523
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 2: Derek as to what to do because I can feel

524
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 2: the disdain with this investment and the wanting to get

525
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 2: out of it, but on the other hand not wanting

526
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 2: to take a twenty five percent loss there. So yeah,

527
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 2: I can't give the personal advice.

528
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 1: Why have they had such a good the last six

529
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 1: months you say have been good? Yeah, for this even

530
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 1: though the news has been bad, like about commercial property

531
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 1: up until very recently. Why the change in sentiment towards

532
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 1: the property trusts of late.

533
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 2: Yes, because investors have a crystal ball and they're always

534
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 2: looking forward. They're not looking at today at their feet.

535
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 2: They're looking down the road and they see that inflation's

536
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 2: coming down. America, Europe, places around the world have reduced

537
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 2: the cash rate and so we're seeing the bond rates

538
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 2: start to come down, and so ahead of that, the

539
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,479
Speaker 2: property investments are receiving a lot of money again as

540
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 2: people reverse what they did a few years ago. They're

541
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,239
Speaker 2: now selling out of the bonds and shoveling money back

542
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 2: into the property trusts.

543
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 1: And they're doing that on the assumption that rates are

544
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: going to come down, correct, and they didn't. They did

545
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 1: or didn't allow for the election of Donald Trump in

546
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 1: that particular scenario. I don't know about those rates coming down, folks. Sorry,

547
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 1: just the thought. Okay, we've come back to that one.

548
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 1: All right, final question you'd like to read it. It's

549
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 1: from Andrew. Yeah, again, it's from Andrew. Andrew ass do

550
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 1: you think it's time for Combank to split stock?

551
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 2: Stock split? They seem to be very high in which

552
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 2: is a detriment compared to other banks in the broader market.

553
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 2: And then he also adds that when the last major

554
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 2: when was the last major stock split in the ASX

555
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 2: twenty and what happened? Do they have a positive or

556
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 2: negative impact on the price. And Andrew says that you

557
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 2: can't think of any stock split over the past four years.

558
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: Okay, thank you, Andrew. I question one aspect of that question,

559
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 1: which is whether Combank is suffering in any fashion because

560
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: there a stock is about one hundred and fifty bucks

561
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 1: or thereabouts, and I think es certainly in this market

562
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: of late, there's a wow factor being attached to Combank

563
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 1: and the fact that the stock is one hundred and

564
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 1: fifty bucks, and it almost sort of makes a point

565
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 1: about just how good a stock, or just how successful

566
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: a stock it's been for once worth. You might challenge

567
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 1: me on this, James. The only stock split of any

568
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 1: serious significance I could have find really was CSL back

569
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 1: in two oh seven three from one split and overseas

570
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 1: Tesla course, and in Nvidia. I think more recently, when

571
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 1: a company has the stock split, it tends to be

572
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: they are dizzyingly successful. Warren Buffett famously, of course, they

573
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 1: did a sort of a kind of a split which

574
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 1: the THEA class hairs and the big class chairs once

575
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 1: upon a time, which was a similar thing. So we

576
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: haven't had one for a long time. I think it's

577
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 1: a great notion, Andrew, sometimes a great notion that they

578
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 1: could split. There is a there is obviously people who

579
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:45,479
Speaker 1: for some reason feel better buying two stars two combat

580
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 1: shares for seventy five bucks each rather than one for

581
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 1: one fifty. But actually it makes no difference whatsoever. I think,

582
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: What do you think, James.

583
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's absolutely right, and I would pretty much

584
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 2: guarantee that if they did a stock split that the

585
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 2: stock split would go up in value because there'd be

586
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 2: more perceived value in having the stock at a lower price.

587
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 2: But as you say, it makes absolutely no difference. But

588
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 2: for the average mom and dad investor, they like a

589
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 2: lower price because they're used to investing into things like

590
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 2: physical property, and that's very straightforward, the higher price and

591
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 2: more expensive of property. But it doesn't work the same

592
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 2: on the share market. That's said, I don't think CBA

593
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 2: has too much of an issue. You touched on Berkshire

594
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 2: half away. Their Class A units are over seven hundred

595
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 2: thousand dollars per stock, so that's each each class Andrew, Yeah, yeah,

596
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 2: so yeah, if CBA gets the seven hundred thousand, maybe

597
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 2: send in another request and then yeah, that's probably more

598
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 2: valid at that stage. But I think at the current

599
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 2: price it's it would be good for perception, but it's

600
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 2: not really necessary.

601
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: It's a fascinating thing that Comebank is sitting there at

602
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty and all the brokers are saying

603
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 1: sell at one hundred, sell at one hundred and ten,

604
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 1: it goes to one twenty one thirty sell. I mean,

605
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 1: it's an embarrassment at this stage for them that all

606
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: the major brokers are saying that this stock is worth

607
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 1: roughly one hundred dollars and the market is saying it's

608
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: worth one hundred and fifty dollars. And that situation has

609
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 1: been going on all year. No one knows how it's

610
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: going to change. But I'll tell you one thing. If

611
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 1: I was Matt Common and it started to slide, that

612
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: might be the time to announce a split. And then

613
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 1: you forget the James Gerard theory that it would just

614
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: go up anyway because people would think it's cheaper, though

615
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 1: of course it isn't cheaper. It's the same price. It's

616
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 1: more liquid though it is more liquid. And we should

617
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: explain to everyone that the theory behind the stock sibility

618
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 1: is that at a certain point, stocks that are very

619
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 1: successful where the share price goes absolutely bananas, a liquidity

620
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 1: issue does arrive ultimately, and so they do split to

621
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 1: bolster liquidity, which is what happened at Tesla and in

622
00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 1: Media and CSL once upon a time. There's no risk

623
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: of them needing to do a stock split at the

624
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: moment at CSL because they have been sliding and going nowhere.

625
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 2: I have to say.

626
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,839
Speaker 1: For some time and now with Kennedy Junior as Health

627
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: Minister in the Trump administration, CSO has been sort of

628
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 1: fresh because of the fears that he will be that

629
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 1: he will not be enthusiastic about vaccines, and that's very

630
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 1: likely since he never has been all the way till now. Okay,

631
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 1: but we're moving slightly off track, aren't we. We were

632
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 1: supposed to be talking about big funds and property. Okay, terrific, Hey, James,

633
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 1: thank you very much. That was very interesting and I

634
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,359
Speaker 1: think it was a very pragmatic response to the issue

635
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 1: at big super and the issues that are forming. I mean,

636
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 1: as we say, the million dollar question on those big funds, folks,

637
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 1: is whether they can quarantine their successful investment performance from

638
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 1: the sort of hapless, inept news stories we're seeing on

639
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: their management side. How long can they keep those two

640
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 1: things separate? That's the issue. Okay, we'll be talking to

641
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,320
Speaker 1: you soon. Thank you, James, talk to you again, pleasure.

642
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:00,879
Speaker 2: Thanks James.

643
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 1: Thanks very much to Leah Samuel glu who produced today's show.

644
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:10,879
Speaker 1: On Thursday, lookout for Will Hamilton on our annual Advisor's

645
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 1: List special that will be on Thursday, and keep the

646
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 1: emails rolling at the money puzzle at the Australian dot com,

647
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: dot au dot you soon