WEBVTT - Tales from behind bars. Part 1 0:00:01.320 --> 0:00:05.240 There's a funny nickname that some might consider funny others 0:00:05.320 --> 0:00:06.800 might not, which was. 0:00:06.800 --> 0:00:11.039 What it was called slapfest. I say he turned around 0:00:11.039 --> 0:00:13.960 and looked at me and goes listen. I can't remember it, 0:00:14.080 --> 0:00:16.680 but it probably was me. He said I was a 0:00:16.880 --> 0:00:20.360 very sick man out there, and that's all he'd really 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:24.079 say about it. He was quite charming. He could charm me. 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:27.880 He charm the female stuff. He charm everyone, the male stuff, 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:29.240 even the prisoners to agree. 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:33.239 I'm Andrew Rule is his life and crimes. Today, we 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:37.599 have a guest in our studio. His name is Brian Coughlan, 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:42.120 and he comes to us after serving something like twenty 0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:46.400 six years looking after prisoners in one of our biggest 0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:50.400 and toughest prisons. Brian came to work in the prisons 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:55.280 after twenty years working as a photographer at the races, 0:00:55.720 --> 0:01:00.560 which strikes me as a very interesting juxtaposition of two 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:05.399 different professions. Brian Coglan, who are you and how did 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:08.920 you become the man who went from taking pictures of 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:14.559 race horses to looking after prisoners at Port Phillip, many 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:17.240 of whom were also very interested in racing. 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:21.520 It's true, Andrew, True. What happened. It does seem like 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:24.800 an odd crossover. But I used to work with the 0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:29.440 VRSE or for the racing Victoria and doing the photographs, 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:34.120 and through a series of different things, photography changed a lot. 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:37.880 Digital photography became a big part of it, and copyright 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:41.960 was an issue. And to cut a long story short, 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:45.640 I ended my association with the racing industry and had 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:47.520 to find something else. Why prisons. 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:50.320 Is it true that you met someone at a dinner 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:54.080 party who said, have you ever considered working in the prisons? 0:01:54.520 --> 0:01:56.440 Is that true? That part of it is true? Yeah? 0:01:56.520 --> 0:01:58.920 Is it a school dinner party? And one of the 0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:02.440 managers from the it do only just opened Port Philip 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:07.800 was what year ninety seven, right at that hitching state. Yeah, 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:10.280 it opened in ninety seven. This was ninety eight. When 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:13.079 I finished at the races, you'd be in your late thirties. 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:16.920 I was around about thirty seven. Yeah, and yeah, I 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:19.959 had to find a different career. And of course when 0:02:19.960 --> 0:02:22.640 somebody suggested a prison, I'm at a dinner party in 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:25.880 Campbell I'm not expecting anyone to talk about a prison 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:28.799 on the other side of town. Very different anyway, To 0:02:28.840 --> 0:02:31.760 cut a long story short, I looked at it, and 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:34.440 the guy I was dealing with was running the industry's 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:35.880 part of the prison. He was trying to get some 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:39.560 industries up and running right, and he was talking about 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:45.359 getting me over to work under him as a rep. 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:47.600 I suppose to go out and get work for the prisoners, 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:50.680 but part of that was I had to do the training. 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:54.040 So I went in and started the officer training. And 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:56.040 how long did that take? It was about six or 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:58.320 eight weeks. I think. Where did you do it? Out 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:02.000 at a site close to port far out in Labanon, yep. 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:06.800 And the training was fascinating. I loved it. And I 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:09.679 said to Rob, the guy who'd come involved, listen, I 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:12.840 might try and stay on the floor and actually work 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:14.679 in the prison if you don't mind. And he said 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:17.360 I didn't think what I said? Oh no, Well, this 0:03:17.440 --> 0:03:21.920 has all been fascinating. And the way Group four was 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:26.520 selling it back then is they were trying to bring 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:29.200 on a sort of a Scandinavian field to corrections. 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:32.400 Group four, of course, is the private company that was 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:36.880 awarded contracts to run private prison or prisms in Victoria 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:40.240 correct in parallel with the state run prisms. 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:43.560 Yes, yeah, okay, you worked for Group four, not really 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:46.680 for the Victorian state. Yes, well I was employed by 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:49.840 Group four, but we worked under all the all the 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:54.480 same rules as you know, in corrections, through the corrections 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:59.040 and the Commissioner's requirements and things like that. So yeah, 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:01.760 but we're employed by a private firm, which of course 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:03.520 was controversial back then it was. 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:08.680 And they adopted this Scandinavian or Swedish model, which was 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:12.440 to treat prisoners sort of as fellow humans, not to 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:16.360 stand over them, not sort of that semi military discipline thing, 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:19.560 perhaps use their first names, correct, and to try and 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:24.280 exert use your unpleasant personality as a tool to keep 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:27.159 sometimes unpleasant people in check. 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:32.040 Yes, and how did that go? Well? When they first 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:35.200 opened up, it was a shit show, to be honest. 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:38.640 It was the prisoners were just running right. There was 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:43.000 no ex Pentridge staff. They'd made a conscious decision not 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:47.320 to employ Pentridge staff and things like that. And for 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:51.040 the first year, which I wasn't there for, it was terrible. 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:54.200 They ended up burning down one of the units, Scarf South. 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:58.520 There was no locks on the traps. It was just 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:01.240 poorly run. There was no interior fencing so all the 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:06.200 prisoners could mix. It was a really average way. 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:10.360 Who designed that. No interior fencing so all the prisoners 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:10.960 could mix. 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:14.159 Well to be a problem. Not many, not very much 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:17.160 interior fencing. There were the protection yard was separated and 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:20.000 the management yard was separated, but the rest of the 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:22.920 prison was pretty much open, so there was a lot 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:26.280 of standover, a lot of mix. It was just poorly run. 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:30.160 How many prisons roughly when you started round about one thousand, 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:31.359 so it's. 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:35.400 Early ninety nine, you're there about a thousand prisoners. You 0:05:35.480 --> 0:05:37.240 were one of how many officers do you think? 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:42.440 Oh? In the staffing numbers weren't too sure. But it 0:05:42.560 --> 0:05:45.080 was another thing that g foursa Now I don't know 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:47.360 if it was the money saving thing or whatever, but 0:05:47.440 --> 0:05:50.839 they would put three staff into about round about sixty 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:51.960 to seventy prisoners. 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:56.640 The ratio was not ideal, not ideal at all. Really, 0:05:56.720 --> 0:05:59.840 it was corporate being counting, but not idea. 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:03.159 Was completely different to the CV jarls, where the staff 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:08.880 would be behind screens or behind it corrections victorious and 0:06:09.080 --> 0:06:11.520 so it was different. We were literally placed right out 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:15.120 in the middle of the unit and hence, you know, 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:19.240 no protection around us. We'd have TVs thrown at us, feces, 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:20.840 everything So how did. 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:23.240 You go the first week? You go home, your wife says, 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:26.080 how it was work? Toda, you assimilated TV and three 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:27.440 bags of crap thrown at me? 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:31.360 How was that? Obviously, wasn't that bad every day? But 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:33.360 the good thing about working there was there was a 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:36.240 real sense of camaraderie in it with the staff in 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:39.160 the early days because we're all new to it. But 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:42.920 then they did bring in some people with correctional history. 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:47.599 Right now, what prompted that? Truth? I think we literally 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:50.680 had about a dozen deaths in the first year. That's 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:55.880 a few. Yes, was it colera playe? They know there 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:59.640 was a few assaults, a few. I think sixty five 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:04.400 percent of them were natural causes, but they probably were 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:06.400 brought on a little bit earlier than that. I don't know. 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:10.120 I see and speaking to the directors back then, who 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:14.160 were English, everything was weird. Like the contracts they got 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:18.080 us to sign. We had ten weeks sick leave, and 0:07:18.120 --> 0:07:19.520 if you were there for three years, it went to 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:23.280 thirteen weeks sick leave. Good Lord, and just stupid things 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:26.360 like that which we'd never I thought I'd misread my contract. 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:28.280 I thought it said ten days sick leave, which was 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:31.920 pretty standard. Good. Now it was ten weeks and they 0:07:31.960 --> 0:07:35.800 didn't think that Australian staff would exploit it. So we 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:39.720 had trouble staffing a prison because everyone who just gove 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:43.480 sick all the time. Anyway, over the years we eventually 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:46.960 lost that in abas and things like that. No wonder, yes, No, 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:49.680 it was crazy thinking and then they're saying, oh, it's 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:52.080 a very stressful job. You probably might need a little 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:55.040 bit of time off. You can take mental health days 0:07:55.080 --> 0:07:59.240 and things like that, and you know, good lord, yeah exactly. 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:03.480 The net result though is things weren't going that smoothly, 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:06.640 so they had to get the iron fist inside the 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:09.920 velvet glove. When when did that happen and how did 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:10.360 it happen? 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:12.880 I literally came onto the floor I think in a 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:17.440 brand about March or so of ninety nine and Scarbo 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:21.400 South had just been burned down, the places in turmoil, 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:25.880 keys were being lost. It was just a so they 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:29.360 got some experienced staff in and straight away you could 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:33.640 feel it senior only or what no, from management down 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:38.280 like ex governors of Petrie. Yeah, made a comeback to 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:42.720 Shane Kelly, Paul S Banana former heavyweight, former heavy heavyweight 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:48.320 champions and they actually gave us the permission or whatever 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:50.959 to straighten to joined up right, you know, we got 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:51.400 to a stage. 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:53.800 It's a nickname that the staff. I'm not saying it's 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:58.160 a literally true label, but there's a funny nickname that 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:01.920 some might consider funny others might not, which was. 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:08.400 What it was called slapfest. I see. They literally had 0:09:08.400 --> 0:09:11.320 to take control of the unit. So anyone who bad 0:09:11.440 --> 0:09:14.440 mouth staff or gave staff a bit of lip, especially 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:18.040 the female's there because there was a fifty to fifty 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:22.160 female male sort of rafa the word go out, the 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:24.120 prisoners would be called up for a visit. There'd be 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:27.000 no visit. Ye whack, whack, whack, go back to yourself, 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:31.320 watch your mouth. And to be fair, it actually knocked 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:33.000 the place straight back into shape. 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:38.400 Well within it and some of the cheekier elements didn't 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:40.560 want to leave their cells after a while, Okase they 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:41.480 got into trade. 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:44.480 Yes, yeah, Well they became very careful with the way 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:46.400 they spoke to staff. Put it that way, because the 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:50.120 staff were always because they are all people, people, people persons, 0:09:50.920 --> 0:09:54.440 they would talk to the prisoners and use their first names. Now, 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:57.360 apparently that didn't happen at the government jails, everyone was 0:09:57.400 --> 0:09:59.959 called by the surname. They expected to be missed a thing, 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:04.880 and so the prisoners were quite uncomfortable with it at first, 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:08.199 you know, calling you Brian instead of mister Coughlin or 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:11.440 whatever that was. They grew up in a difference exactly, 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:15.760 especially the older school ones. But it eventually went over. 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:20.120 And you know, it's terribly hard to to pray someone 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:22.959 when you're calling them by their surname, you know, or 0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:26.160 to call them up, you know, if you're using the 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:28.520 intercom or something, obviously you do it, but when you're 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:30.760 just dealing with them one on one, which you had 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:32.000 to do every day. 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:35.319 You're the nice bloke that came from the races, a 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:40.120 friendly fellow, good people person, quite not a mean of 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:43.400 threatening demeanor. What niche did you find in the jail? 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:45.400 What were you good at? And what did you do? 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:48.400 Mostly? Well, it's probably a good word for it, really, 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:51.640 because I became what they called a sash officer standard 0:10:51.640 --> 0:10:55.840 for suicide and self harm. Right, we'd lost numerous prisoners 0:10:55.840 --> 0:10:58.160 in the first few years at Port Philip. What did 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:02.600 the prison Well, I became known as a care bear, 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:06.560 one of the care bears, right, so I'd interview every 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:09.320 prisoner on a arrival to poor Philip when they came 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:11.920 back from court, or if they got a sendence at court, 0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:15.439 so you know how you feeling, how are you feeling? 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:17.680 And listen. Nine times out of ten it was no 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:20.400 one fine, boss or good. It was about what I 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:23.440 was expecting or you know whatever. But you know, every 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:25.360 now and again you get someone whose cage had been 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:27.160 rattled and they thought, shit, I've got to spend the 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:31.400 next fifteen years here or whatever, and you just talk 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:35.080 them down, or you might offer to contact their family 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:38.480 because they wouldn't have seen their family since court or 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:40.800 since they've been transit. You could do all that and 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:42.719 I have the authority to do that. Yeah, it was 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:43.200 quite good. 0:11:43.240 --> 0:11:47.080 It was so you could build reasonably friendly relationships with 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:50.920 some people, Yeah, for sure, and beware, of course, you'd 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:53.560 be careful not to be manipulated by people. But yeah, 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:56.640 depending or you could, with a bit of luck, manipulate 0:11:56.720 --> 0:12:01.200 some to lean on others. Now, listeners out there are 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:03.680 listening to this and they're thinking, now, who did he 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:08.480 actually look after There will be names of prisoners that 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:10.959 some of them will be quite well known to the 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:14.480 public and some won't but I understand that a fellow 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:17.440 that I've had a bit to do with in some ways. 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:22.120 I've written a book about this fellow called Raymond Edmonds, 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:26.520 who sadly had the alias in the media of mister Stinky. 0:12:27.120 --> 0:12:30.080 He was one of the long term prisoners that you 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:34.319 knew and cared for, if that's the right word in 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:38.840 port Philip, tell me about Raymond Edmonds? What age roughly 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:41.160 was he when you got there? He would have been 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:44.240 he's about. 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:46.400 Mid fifties or fifties. Yeah, yeah, he was born during 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:51.439 World War II, early forties, probably in his early eighties now, 0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:55.079 so would have been around about mid fifties, I suppose. 0:12:55.960 --> 0:12:58.400 And when I arrived there, he used to do the 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:02.880 rations for the whole prison, right and so his sale 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:06.240 was next to a room that was like a storage 0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:12.640 room that contained everything from bed packs to washing equipment, anything, 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:16.840 they'd note, sugar, everything. So he'd do literally on his own, 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:20.199 the rations for the whole jail back then. Back then 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:23.520 he did chair and jail for the whole jarl. Yeah, 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:26.680 it was like a bit of a prison storman he was, 0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:28.320 And what was he like? 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:31.400 I know he was a physically strong man when he 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:35.400 was a cheer farmer, regarded by young men who knew 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:37.600 him when he was a young man as a fellow 0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:41.520 that could lift up a very heavy trailer hitch. And 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:45.000 he was actually a crack shot to a very good shot. 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:46.839 But he was a strong man in the sense of 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:50.080 farmers being strong men. I don't know that he was 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:52.600 renowned as a fist fighter, rule or anything, because he 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:55.440 wasn't a criminal per se. He was a deviate, but 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:58.800 not well he was exactly, but he was never a 0:13:58.800 --> 0:13:59.360 bank robber. 0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:02.240 He was in on some pretty heinous crimes, but when 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:04.640 you're actually dealing with them on a day, you could 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:08.360 He was quite charming. He could charm. He'd charm the 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:12.040 female stuff, charm everyone, the male stuff, even the prisoners 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:15.319 to a degree. And I often wondered how he kept 0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:18.080 control of them, because when he moved on to a 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:21.240 bigger unit, he would literally just sit by the front 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:25.160 door of the unit, and the prisoners had come up 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:27.200 and ask him for stuff. And he was very fair. 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:30.280 He was always, you know, whether the protection mainstream management, 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:34.800 didn't matter what you were in on, he always, you know, 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:38.520 blokes were trying to stand over you know, terrorists or 0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:41.800 pedophiles or something like that. He'd make sure they always 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:45.440 got their meals, got everything that they're entitled to. Really, yeah, 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:47.520 he was very fair along those lines. He was like 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:51.640 so institutionalized. This was his life, so he just had 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:52.560 to make the most of it. 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:55.120 Now, this is just for our listen sake, and this 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:58.400 is a man who this is his known offenses. He 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:03.120 murdered a pair of teenagers. Gary Haywood been a medil 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:07.760 in Sheperdon or near Sheperdon in nineteen sixty six. He 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:11.479 also and was not caught. He was an unknown assailant. 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:17.080 He was subsequently caught nineteen nearly twenty years later because 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:20.720 he's a fingerprint. The fingerprinted him at Aubrey over an 0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:24.880 indecent exposure charge, and they realized that this print matched 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:28.920 up not only with the murdered boys car, Gary Haywood's car, 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:33.320 but with Prince left at many rape scenes in Melbourne 0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:37.120 in the eastern suburbs. So our nineteen sixties killer was 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:40.680 in fact our nineteen seventies suburban rapist. And he was 0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:43.920 a very prolific rapist. And although he was only convicted 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:48.120 of several rapes, like five or six or something, he 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:51.080 thought that he did dozens and I'm only fifteen to 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:55.800 sixty or god knows what. So he was a seriously 0:15:55.880 --> 0:16:01.480 violent offender over at least two decades, this guy, And 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:04.440 I'm just wondering sort of how he sort of could 0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:07.600 pull much weight in jail with that history. 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:12.360 Well, as I said, it is literally beyond me how 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:15.600 he survived so long without being assaulted, you know, because 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:18.760 of the nature of his crimes. Listen, he wasn't obviously 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:22.320 proud of them, because I spoke to him numerous times 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:26.560 about it. And I actually returned from a party one night. 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:28.760 Where as you do if you work in the prison, 0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:31.720 people ask you questions. Someone asked me if I knew him. 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:34.680 I said I do, And she then told me that 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:39.400 she escaped an attack by him and told me about 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:41.080 this and it was up on the border, I think 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:43.440 it was around a Choker or Moamma or somewhere up 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:46.640 that way, and gave me some details about how she 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:49.240 was on a bike and some guy jumped out of 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:51.280 the bushes and pushed her off the bike and tried 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:55.800 to assault her, and she got away. So I walked 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:58.520 in may or may not, but I raised her with 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:00.720 him the next day he said, oh do last night 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:02.160 and I said, oh, I went to a party, and 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:05.400 I said, actually, I was talking to a girl who 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:08.119 thinks that you might have attacked her at one stage. 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:12.280 And he sort of pulled a quizical head and I said, listen, 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:14.119 I don't know. I'll tell you what she told me 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:16.800 and see if it makes sense, and told him I 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:18.760 was up on the border and he was living in 0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:24.639 a humpy and in some bushes near the border. And 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:27.040 he turned around and looked at me and goes, listen, 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:30.600 I can't remember it, but it probably was me. He 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:35.280 said I was a very sick man out there, and 0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:38.280 that's all he'd really say about it. And I thought, oh, 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:42.520 that's weird, but he didn't deny it. And when he 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:44.639 said it could have been made, he said that sounds 0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:47.360 like what I would have done. And I was, gee, 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:48.040 that's weird. 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:52.240 That's Raymond Nebman's mister stinking. And he was quite to 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:54.679 this day, even though he's quite old. Will never be 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:57.240 released chair Yeah, he won't be released, I don't think, 0:17:57.560 --> 0:18:01.640 not except possibly on his deathbeat or something. Now, there 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:05.240 are others and more recent people that have become well 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:08.760 known more recently who are well known to you, and 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:10.840 one of them would be Tony Mockbell. 0:18:11.320 --> 0:18:15.760 Yes, yes, tell us about Tony. Well, when I was 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:19.679 still working at the races, we'd first run into a 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:28.360 crew that earned the Tracksuit Gang nickname this Lateneah exactly, 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:31.960 and they'd all turn up in their flashy track suits 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:36.719 and carl chains the work, looking looking the part, but 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:39.480 they'd bet like there was no settling, you know. They'd 0:18:39.520 --> 0:18:42.000 take on a few of the bigger bookies back then, 0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:46.120 and as I knew of most of the bookies back then, 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:48.960 I don't know who dubbed them the Tracksuit Gang, but 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:52.440 that's what they became known as. And anyway, to cut 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:55.159 along story short turned out to be Tony Mockbell and 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:59.000 his brothers, and next thing you know, they're in a 0:18:59.080 --> 0:19:03.600 poor Philip on various different charges and things. For three 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:06.600 of them were there, I think at this stage anyway, 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:09.280 And as I was doing the sash up in my 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:12.680 office in the missions building which was separate from the units, 0:19:13.600 --> 0:19:16.040 and it wasn't uncommon for Tony to come up and 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:18.680 stick his head in and so how are you going? 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:21.920 And I say good? He goes, can you ring Jimmy 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:25.040 Cassidy for us and for our listeners benefit? 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:28.040 Jimmy Cassidy is a Melbourne Cup winning jockey in a 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:31.280 very very good jockey, but a bit of a scaley wag. 0:19:31.520 --> 0:19:33.119 We know that because he was rubbed out as a 0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:37.280 jockey for at least two years for communicating with people 0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:39.280 like Tony Mockbell and various other gangsters. 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:43.320 Yeah, well yeah, I was all at arms distance to that, obviously, 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:46.159 but I said, mate, I'm sure our phones are bug to. 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:49.000 You're not using my phone, you're not doing this. And 0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:52.399 then it turned out that my brother in law was 0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:55.800 training horses for him, or my brother in law's brother. Actually, oh, 0:19:55.840 --> 0:20:01.160 I know Jimmy Coleman, who's a character. And I ranged 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:05.440 him immediately and said, Jimmy, for God's sake, look at 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:08.320 you know what are you doing? I said, you know 0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:11.000 who these guys are, because we'd never had any run 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:15.520 ins with criminals or anything like this. And he goes, well, 0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:17.600 I'm starting to hear and I said, okay, well just 0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:19.960 be careful, you know, and he goes yeah, and he said, listen, 0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:23.440 all I talk about is racing. And I said, yeah, 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:25.800 but he's phones. This guy's phones will be bugged and 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:28.960 everything like that. And he goes and Jimmy says to me, well, 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:31.320 that might explain when my horses keep getting knocked off 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:33.680 every time I tip him one. I said, you're tipping 0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:37.919 it to half Victoria Police. You know it's wonderful, is 0:20:37.920 --> 0:20:42.520 that right? That's true. That listen. I know I've heard 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:45.040 all these things about Tony. He said, I just deal 0:20:45.119 --> 0:20:47.479 with who I deal with. He's fine. He pays his bills, 0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:50.600 he's courteous. He always pays bills. Or sometimes jim have 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:55.760 to remind you. Yeah, sometimes sometimes he'd get a little 0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:58.200 bit slower and maybe cash flow issues. I'm not too sure, 0:20:58.240 --> 0:20:58.560 but and. 0:20:58.560 --> 0:21:01.120 He have to you mention it, and he could mention 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:03.359 someone outside to fix it up. 0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:05.600 I don't know if it ever got to that stage. 0:21:05.640 --> 0:21:08.840 But you know, well he was inside out. He paid, 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:11.160 he must have got something. Well, that's true, that's true, 0:21:11.400 --> 0:21:16.000 A relatively a friend to do. Yeah, possibly in cash. 0:21:16.040 --> 0:21:18.280 I don't know. I never really went down that track 0:21:18.320 --> 0:21:21.000 because I thought, oh god, I've got to keep away, 0:21:21.080 --> 0:21:22.760 you know, I've got to keep an arms distance from 0:21:22.760 --> 0:21:26.320 these guys. But having said that, never had any issues 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:29.000 of them. They're always polite. The three of them were 0:21:29.040 --> 0:21:33.960 always polite and always quite funny. You know, quite interesting company. 0:21:34.000 --> 0:21:37.560 We talked racing. We talked racing a lot. They loved 0:21:37.560 --> 0:21:42.440 it and I loved it. Yeah, and broke down a 0:21:42.480 --> 0:21:45.120 few walls and there, you know, I saw ex jockeys 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:52.520 and I saw bookies and inside inside. Yeah, an approximate 0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:57.800 idea first names only. Okay. You know there's one that 0:21:57.960 --> 0:22:00.400 wasn't too famous. He was a rails book maker. We 0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:03.880 everyone dubbed him fat Harold, but he was still stay fat, 0:22:03.920 --> 0:22:06.480 insight poor. Oh fat Harold came in with a broken wing. 0:22:06.680 --> 0:22:08.800 I don't know how he got off the bus. So 0:22:08.880 --> 0:22:13.080 he demanded to be put into the hospital. And I 0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:16.440 think they said, mate, it's broken. You know, we'll fix 0:22:16.480 --> 0:22:19.280 it if it needs fixing, but we can't do any 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:21.040