1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 1: There's a funny nickname that some might consider funny others 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: might not, which was. 3 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:11,039 Speaker 2: What it was called slapfest. I say he turned around 4 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 2: and looked at me and goes listen. I can't remember it, 5 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 2: but it probably was me. He said I was a 6 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 2: very sick man out there, and that's all he'd really 7 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 2: say about it. He was quite charming. He could charm me. 8 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 2: He charm the female stuff. He charm everyone, the male stuff, 9 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 2: even the prisoners to agree. 10 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:33,239 Speaker 1: I'm Andrew Rule is his life and crimes. Today, we 11 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:37,599 Speaker 1: have a guest in our studio. His name is Brian Coughlan, 12 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 1: and he comes to us after serving something like twenty 13 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: six years looking after prisoners in one of our biggest 14 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: and toughest prisons. Brian came to work in the prisons 15 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: after twenty years working as a photographer at the races, 16 00:00:55,720 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: which strikes me as a very interesting juxtaposition of two 17 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:05,399 Speaker 1: different professions. Brian Coglan, who are you and how did 18 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: you become the man who went from taking pictures of 19 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:14,559 Speaker 1: race horses to looking after prisoners at Port Phillip, many 20 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: of whom were also very interested in racing. 21 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 2: It's true, Andrew, True. What happened. It does seem like 22 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 2: an odd crossover. But I used to work with the 23 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 2: VRSE or for the racing Victoria and doing the photographs, 24 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 2: and through a series of different things, photography changed a lot. 25 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 2: Digital photography became a big part of it, and copyright 26 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,960 Speaker 2: was an issue. And to cut a long story short, 27 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 2: I ended my association with the racing industry and had 28 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 2: to find something else. Why prisons. 29 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: Is it true that you met someone at a dinner 30 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: party who said, have you ever considered working in the prisons? 31 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 2: Is that true? That part of it is true? Yeah? 32 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 2: Is it a school dinner party? And one of the 33 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 2: managers from the it do only just opened Port Philip 34 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 2: was what year ninety seven, right at that hitching state. Yeah, 35 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 2: it opened in ninety seven. This was ninety eight. When 36 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,079 Speaker 2: I finished at the races, you'd be in your late thirties. 37 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 2: I was around about thirty seven. Yeah, and yeah, I 38 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:19,959 Speaker 2: had to find a different career. And of course when 39 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 2: somebody suggested a prison, I'm at a dinner party in 40 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 2: Campbell I'm not expecting anyone to talk about a prison 41 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:28,799 Speaker 2: on the other side of town. Very different anyway, To 42 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 2: cut a long story short, I looked at it, and 43 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 2: the guy I was dealing with was running the industry's 44 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 2: part of the prison. He was trying to get some 45 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 2: industries up and running right, and he was talking about 46 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:45,359 Speaker 2: getting me over to work under him as a rep. 47 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 2: I suppose to go out and get work for the prisoners, 48 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 2: but part of that was I had to do the training. 49 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 2: So I went in and started the officer training. And 50 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 2: how long did that take? It was about six or 51 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 2: eight weeks. I think. Where did you do it? Out 52 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 2: at a site close to port far out in Labanon, yep. 53 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 2: And the training was fascinating. I loved it. And I 54 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:09,679 Speaker 2: said to Rob, the guy who'd come involved, listen, I 55 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 2: might try and stay on the floor and actually work 56 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:14,679 Speaker 2: in the prison if you don't mind. And he said 57 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 2: I didn't think what I said? Oh no, Well, this 58 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 2: has all been fascinating. And the way Group four was 59 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 2: selling it back then is they were trying to bring 60 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 2: on a sort of a Scandinavian field to corrections. 61 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: Group four, of course, is the private company that was 62 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: awarded contracts to run private prison or prisms in Victoria 63 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: correct in parallel with the state run prisms. 64 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, okay, you worked for Group four, not really 65 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 2: for the Victorian state. Yes, well I was employed by 66 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 2: Group four, but we worked under all the all the 67 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 2: same rules as you know, in corrections, through the corrections 68 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 2: and the Commissioner's requirements and things like that. So yeah, 69 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 2: but we're employed by a private firm, which of course 70 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 2: was controversial back then it was. 71 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: And they adopted this Scandinavian or Swedish model, which was 72 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: to treat prisoners sort of as fellow humans, not to 73 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 1: stand over them, not sort of that semi military discipline thing, 74 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: perhaps use their first names, correct, and to try and 75 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:24,280 Speaker 1: exert use your unpleasant personality as a tool to keep 76 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 1: sometimes unpleasant people in check. 77 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 2: Yes, and how did that go? Well? When they first 78 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 2: opened up, it was a shit show, to be honest. 79 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 2: It was the prisoners were just running right. There was 80 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 2: no ex Pentridge staff. They'd made a conscious decision not 81 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 2: to employ Pentridge staff and things like that. And for 82 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 2: the first year, which I wasn't there for, it was terrible. 83 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 2: They ended up burning down one of the units, Scarf South. 84 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 2: There was no locks on the traps. It was just 85 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 2: poorly run. There was no interior fencing so all the 86 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 2: prisoners could mix. It was a really average way. 87 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 1: Who designed that. No interior fencing so all the prisoners 88 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: could mix. 89 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 2: Well to be a problem. Not many, not very much 90 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 2: interior fencing. There were the protection yard was separated and 91 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 2: the management yard was separated, but the rest of the 92 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 2: prison was pretty much open, so there was a lot 93 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:26,280 Speaker 2: of standover, a lot of mix. It was just poorly run. 94 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 2: How many prisons roughly when you started round about one thousand, 95 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:31,359 Speaker 2: so it's. 96 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: Early ninety nine, you're there about a thousand prisoners. You 97 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: were one of how many officers do you think? 98 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 2: Oh? In the staffing numbers weren't too sure. But it 99 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 2: was another thing that g foursa Now I don't know 100 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 2: if it was the money saving thing or whatever, but 101 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 2: they would put three staff into about round about sixty 102 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 2: to seventy prisoners. 103 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: The ratio was not ideal, not ideal at all. Really, 104 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 1: it was corporate being counting, but not idea. 105 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 2: Was completely different to the CV jarls, where the staff 106 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 2: would be behind screens or behind it corrections victorious and 107 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 2: so it was different. We were literally placed right out 108 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 2: in the middle of the unit and hence, you know, 109 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 2: no protection around us. We'd have TVs thrown at us, feces, 110 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:20,840 Speaker 2: everything So how did. 111 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: You go the first week? You go home, your wife says, 112 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: how it was work? Toda, you assimilated TV and three 113 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: bags of crap thrown at me? 114 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 2: How was that? Obviously, wasn't that bad every day? But 115 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 2: the good thing about working there was there was a 116 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 2: real sense of camaraderie in it with the staff in 117 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:39,160 Speaker 2: the early days because we're all new to it. But 118 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 2: then they did bring in some people with correctional history. 119 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:47,599 Speaker 2: Right now, what prompted that? Truth? I think we literally 120 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 2: had about a dozen deaths in the first year. That's 121 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 2: a few. Yes, was it colera playe? They know there 122 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 2: was a few assaults, a few. I think sixty five 123 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 2: percent of them were natural causes, but they probably were 124 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 2: brought on a little bit earlier than that. I don't know. 125 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 2: I see and speaking to the directors back then, who 126 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 2: were English, everything was weird. Like the contracts they got 127 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 2: us to sign. We had ten weeks sick leave, and 128 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 2: if you were there for three years, it went to 129 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 2: thirteen weeks sick leave. Good Lord, and just stupid things 130 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 2: like that which we'd never I thought I'd misread my contract. 131 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 2: I thought it said ten days sick leave, which was 132 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 2: pretty standard. Good. Now it was ten weeks and they 133 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 2: didn't think that Australian staff would exploit it. So we 134 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 2: had trouble staffing a prison because everyone who just gove 135 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 2: sick all the time. Anyway, over the years we eventually 136 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 2: lost that in abas and things like that. No wonder, yes, No, 137 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 2: it was crazy thinking and then they're saying, oh, it's 138 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 2: a very stressful job. You probably might need a little 139 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 2: bit of time off. You can take mental health days 140 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 2: and things like that, and you know, good lord, yeah exactly. 141 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: The net result though is things weren't going that smoothly, 142 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: so they had to get the iron fist inside the 143 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: velvet glove. When when did that happen and how did 144 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: it happen? 145 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 2: I literally came onto the floor I think in a 146 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 2: brand about March or so of ninety nine and Scarbo 147 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 2: South had just been burned down, the places in turmoil, 148 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 2: keys were being lost. It was just a so they 149 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 2: got some experienced staff in and straight away you could 150 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 2: feel it senior only or what no, from management down 151 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 2: like ex governors of Petrie. Yeah, made a comeback to 152 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 2: Shane Kelly, Paul S Banana former heavyweight, former heavy heavyweight 153 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:48,320 Speaker 2: champions and they actually gave us the permission or whatever 154 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:50,959 Speaker 2: to straighten to joined up right, you know, we got 155 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 2: to a stage. 156 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: It's a nickname that the staff. I'm not saying it's 157 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: a literally true label, but there's a funny nickname that 158 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: some might consider funny others might not, which was. 159 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 2: What it was called slapfest. I see. They literally had 160 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 2: to take control of the unit. So anyone who bad 161 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 2: mouth staff or gave staff a bit of lip, especially 162 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 2: the female's there because there was a fifty to fifty 163 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 2: female male sort of rafa the word go out, the 164 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 2: prisoners would be called up for a visit. There'd be 165 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 2: no visit. Ye whack, whack, whack, go back to yourself, 166 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 2: watch your mouth. And to be fair, it actually knocked 167 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 2: the place straight back into shape. 168 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: Well within it and some of the cheekier elements didn't 169 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 1: want to leave their cells after a while, Okase they 170 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: got into trade. 171 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, Well they became very careful with the way 172 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 2: they spoke to staff. Put it that way, because the 173 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 2: staff were always because they are all people, people, people persons, 174 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 2: they would talk to the prisoners and use their first names. Now, 175 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 2: apparently that didn't happen at the government jails, everyone was 176 00:09:57,400 --> 00:09:59,959 Speaker 2: called by the surname. They expected to be missed a thing, 177 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 2: and so the prisoners were quite uncomfortable with it at first, 178 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,199 Speaker 2: you know, calling you Brian instead of mister Coughlin or 179 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 2: whatever that was. They grew up in a difference exactly, 180 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 2: especially the older school ones. But it eventually went over. 181 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 2: And you know, it's terribly hard to to pray someone 182 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 2: when you're calling them by their surname, you know, or 183 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 2: to call them up, you know, if you're using the 184 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 2: intercom or something, obviously you do it, but when you're 185 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 2: just dealing with them one on one, which you had 186 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 2: to do every day. 187 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,319 Speaker 1: You're the nice bloke that came from the races, a 188 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: friendly fellow, good people person, quite not a mean of 189 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: threatening demeanor. What niche did you find in the jail? 190 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 1: What were you good at? And what did you do? 191 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 2: Mostly? Well, it's probably a good word for it, really, 192 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 2: because I became what they called a sash officer standard 193 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 2: for suicide and self harm. Right, we'd lost numerous prisoners 194 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 2: in the first few years at Port Philip. What did 195 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 2: the prison Well, I became known as a care bear, 196 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 2: one of the care bears, right, so I'd interview every 197 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 2: prisoner on a arrival to poor Philip when they came 198 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 2: back from court, or if they got a sendence at court, 199 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:15,439 Speaker 2: so you know how you feeling, how are you feeling? 200 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 2: And listen. Nine times out of ten it was no 201 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 2: one fine, boss or good. It was about what I 202 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 2: was expecting or you know whatever. But you know, every 203 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 2: now and again you get someone whose cage had been 204 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 2: rattled and they thought, shit, I've got to spend the 205 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 2: next fifteen years here or whatever, and you just talk 206 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 2: them down, or you might offer to contact their family 207 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 2: because they wouldn't have seen their family since court or 208 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 2: since they've been transit. You could do all that and 209 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:42,719 Speaker 2: I have the authority to do that. Yeah, it was 210 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 2: quite good. 211 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 1: It was so you could build reasonably friendly relationships with 212 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 1: some people, Yeah, for sure, and beware, of course, you'd 213 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 1: be careful not to be manipulated by people. But yeah, 214 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: depending or you could, with a bit of luck, manipulate 215 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 1: some to lean on others. Now, listeners out there are 216 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:03,680 Speaker 1: listening to this and they're thinking, now, who did he 217 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 1: actually look after There will be names of prisoners that 218 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:10,959 Speaker 1: some of them will be quite well known to the 219 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 1: public and some won't but I understand that a fellow 220 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,440 Speaker 1: that I've had a bit to do with in some ways. 221 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: I've written a book about this fellow called Raymond Edmonds, 222 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: who sadly had the alias in the media of mister Stinky. 223 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: He was one of the long term prisoners that you 224 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,319 Speaker 1: knew and cared for, if that's the right word in 225 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 1: port Philip, tell me about Raymond Edmonds? What age roughly 226 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 1: was he when you got there? He would have been 227 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 1: he's about. 228 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 2: Mid fifties or fifties. Yeah, yeah, he was born during 229 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:51,439 Speaker 2: World War II, early forties, probably in his early eighties now, 230 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:55,079 Speaker 2: so would have been around about mid fifties, I suppose. 231 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 2: And when I arrived there, he used to do the 232 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 2: rations for the whole prison, right and so his sale 233 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 2: was next to a room that was like a storage 234 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 2: room that contained everything from bed packs to washing equipment, anything, 235 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 2: they'd note, sugar, everything. So he'd do literally on his own, 236 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,199 Speaker 2: the rations for the whole jail back then. Back then 237 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 2: he did chair and jail for the whole jarl. Yeah, 238 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 2: it was like a bit of a prison storman he was, 239 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 2: And what was he like? 240 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: I know he was a physically strong man when he 241 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: was a cheer farmer, regarded by young men who knew 242 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: him when he was a young man as a fellow 243 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 1: that could lift up a very heavy trailer hitch. And 244 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: he was actually a crack shot to a very good shot. 245 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:46,839 Speaker 1: But he was a strong man in the sense of 246 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 1: farmers being strong men. I don't know that he was 247 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: renowned as a fist fighter, rule or anything, because he 248 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 1: wasn't a criminal per se. He was a deviate, but 249 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: not well he was exactly, but he was never a 250 00:13:58,800 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: bank robber. 251 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 2: He was in on some pretty heinous crimes, but when 252 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 2: you're actually dealing with them on a day, you could 253 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 2: He was quite charming. He could charm. He'd charm the 254 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 2: female stuff, charm everyone, the male stuff, even the prisoners 255 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:15,319 Speaker 2: to a degree. And I often wondered how he kept 256 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 2: control of them, because when he moved on to a 257 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 2: bigger unit, he would literally just sit by the front 258 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 2: door of the unit, and the prisoners had come up 259 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 2: and ask him for stuff. And he was very fair. 260 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 2: He was always, you know, whether the protection mainstream management, 261 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 2: didn't matter what you were in on, he always, you know, 262 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 2: blokes were trying to stand over you know, terrorists or 263 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 2: pedophiles or something like that. He'd make sure they always 264 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 2: got their meals, got everything that they're entitled to. Really, yeah, 265 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 2: he was very fair along those lines. He was like 266 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 2: so institutionalized. This was his life, so he just had 267 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 2: to make the most of it. 268 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: Now, this is just for our listen sake, and this 269 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: is a man who this is his known offenses. He 270 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 1: murdered a pair of teenagers. Gary Haywood been a medil 271 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: in Sheperdon or near Sheperdon in nineteen sixty six. He 272 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,479 Speaker 1: also and was not caught. He was an unknown assailant. 273 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: He was subsequently caught nineteen nearly twenty years later because 274 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: he's a fingerprint. The fingerprinted him at Aubrey over an 275 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: indecent exposure charge, and they realized that this print matched 276 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: up not only with the murdered boys car, Gary Haywood's car, 277 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: but with Prince left at many rape scenes in Melbourne 278 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: in the eastern suburbs. So our nineteen sixties killer was 279 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 1: in fact our nineteen seventies suburban rapist. And he was 280 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: a very prolific rapist. And although he was only convicted 281 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 1: of several rapes, like five or six or something, he 282 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 1: thought that he did dozens and I'm only fifteen to 283 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: sixty or god knows what. So he was a seriously 284 00:15:55,880 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: violent offender over at least two decades, this guy, And 285 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: I'm just wondering sort of how he sort of could 286 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: pull much weight in jail with that history. 287 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 2: Well, as I said, it is literally beyond me how 288 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 2: he survived so long without being assaulted, you know, because 289 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 2: of the nature of his crimes. Listen, he wasn't obviously 290 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 2: proud of them, because I spoke to him numerous times 291 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 2: about it. And I actually returned from a party one night. 292 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 2: Where as you do if you work in the prison, 293 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 2: people ask you questions. Someone asked me if I knew him. 294 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 2: I said I do, And she then told me that 295 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 2: she escaped an attack by him and told me about 296 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 2: this and it was up on the border, I think 297 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 2: it was around a Choker or Moamma or somewhere up 298 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 2: that way, and gave me some details about how she 299 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 2: was on a bike and some guy jumped out of 300 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 2: the bushes and pushed her off the bike and tried 301 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 2: to assault her, and she got away. So I walked 302 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 2: in may or may not, but I raised her with 303 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 2: him the next day he said, oh do last night 304 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 2: and I said, oh, I went to a party, and 305 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,400 Speaker 2: I said, actually, I was talking to a girl who 306 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 2: thinks that you might have attacked her at one stage. 307 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 2: And he sort of pulled a quizical head and I said, listen, 308 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 2: I don't know. I'll tell you what she told me 309 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 2: and see if it makes sense, and told him I 310 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 2: was up on the border and he was living in 311 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 2: a humpy and in some bushes near the border. And 312 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 2: he turned around and looked at me and goes, listen, 313 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 2: I can't remember it, but it probably was me. He 314 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 2: said I was a very sick man out there, and 315 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 2: that's all he'd really say about it. And I thought, oh, 316 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 2: that's weird, but he didn't deny it. And when he 317 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:44,639 Speaker 2: said it could have been made, he said that sounds 318 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:47,360 Speaker 2: like what I would have done. And I was, gee, 319 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 2: that's weird. 320 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: That's Raymond Nebman's mister stinking. And he was quite to 321 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:54,679 Speaker 1: this day, even though he's quite old. Will never be 322 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: released chair Yeah, he won't be released, I don't think, 323 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:01,640 Speaker 1: not except possibly on his deathbeat or something. Now, there 324 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: are others and more recent people that have become well 325 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: known more recently who are well known to you, and 326 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: one of them would be Tony Mockbell. 327 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, tell us about Tony. Well, when I was 328 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,679 Speaker 2: still working at the races, we'd first run into a 329 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:28,360 Speaker 2: crew that earned the Tracksuit Gang nickname this Lateneah exactly, 330 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 2: and they'd all turn up in their flashy track suits 331 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:36,719 Speaker 2: and carl chains the work, looking looking the part, but 332 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 2: they'd bet like there was no settling, you know. They'd 333 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 2: take on a few of the bigger bookies back then, 334 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:46,120 Speaker 2: and as I knew of most of the bookies back then, 335 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 2: I don't know who dubbed them the Tracksuit Gang, but 336 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 2: that's what they became known as. And anyway, to cut 337 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,159 Speaker 2: along story short turned out to be Tony Mockbell and 338 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 2: his brothers, and next thing you know, they're in a 339 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 2: poor Philip on various different charges and things. For three 340 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 2: of them were there, I think at this stage anyway, 341 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 2: And as I was doing the sash up in my 342 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 2: office in the missions building which was separate from the units, 343 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 2: and it wasn't uncommon for Tony to come up and 344 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 2: stick his head in and so how are you going? 345 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,920 Speaker 2: And I say good? He goes, can you ring Jimmy 346 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 2: Cassidy for us and for our listeners benefit? 347 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: Jimmy Cassidy is a Melbourne Cup winning jockey in a 348 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 1: very very good jockey, but a bit of a scaley wag. 349 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 1: We know that because he was rubbed out as a 350 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: jockey for at least two years for communicating with people 351 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 1: like Tony Mockbell and various other gangsters. 352 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, well yeah, I was all at arms distance to that, obviously, 353 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:46,159 Speaker 2: but I said, mate, I'm sure our phones are bug to. 354 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 2: You're not using my phone, you're not doing this. And 355 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 2: then it turned out that my brother in law was 356 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 2: training horses for him, or my brother in law's brother. Actually, oh, 357 00:19:55,840 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 2: I know Jimmy Coleman, who's a character. And I ranged 358 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:05,440 Speaker 2: him immediately and said, Jimmy, for God's sake, look at 359 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 2: you know what are you doing? I said, you know 360 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 2: who these guys are, because we'd never had any run 361 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 2: ins with criminals or anything like this. And he goes, well, 362 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 2: I'm starting to hear and I said, okay, well just 363 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 2: be careful, you know, and he goes yeah, and he said, listen, 364 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 2: all I talk about is racing. And I said, yeah, 365 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 2: but he's phones. This guy's phones will be bugged and 366 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 2: everything like that. And he goes and Jimmy says to me, well, 367 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 2: that might explain when my horses keep getting knocked off 368 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:33,680 Speaker 2: every time I tip him one. I said, you're tipping 369 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,919 Speaker 2: it to half Victoria Police. You know it's wonderful, is 370 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 2: that right? That's true. That listen. I know I've heard 371 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 2: all these things about Tony. He said, I just deal 372 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:47,479 Speaker 2: with who I deal with. He's fine. He pays his bills, 373 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 2: he's courteous. He always pays bills. Or sometimes jim have 374 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 2: to remind you. Yeah, sometimes sometimes he'd get a little 375 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 2: bit slower and maybe cash flow issues. I'm not too sure, 376 00:20:58,240 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 2: but and. 377 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,120 Speaker 1: He have to you mention it, and he could mention 378 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 1: someone outside to fix it up. 379 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 2: I don't know if it ever got to that stage. 380 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 2: But you know, well he was inside out. He paid, 381 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:11,160 Speaker 2: he must have got something. Well, that's true, that's true, 382 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 2: A relatively a friend to do. Yeah, possibly in cash. 383 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 2: I don't know. I never really went down that track 384 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 2: because I thought, oh god, I've got to keep away, 385 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 2: you know, I've got to keep an arms distance from 386 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 2: these guys. But having said that, never had any issues 387 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 2: of them. They're always polite. The three of them were 388 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 2: always polite and always quite funny. You know, quite interesting company. 389 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 2: We talked racing. We talked racing a lot. They loved 390 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 2: it and I loved it. Yeah, and broke down a 391 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,120 Speaker 2: few walls and there, you know, I saw ex jockeys 392 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 2: and I saw bookies and inside inside. Yeah, an approximate 393 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 2: idea first names only. Okay. You know there's one that 394 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:00,400 Speaker 2: wasn't too famous. He was a rails book maker. We 395 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 2: everyone dubbed him fat Harold, but he was still stay fat, 396 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 2: insight poor. Oh fat Harold came in with a broken wing. 397 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 2: I don't know how he got off the bus. So 398 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 2: he demanded to be put into the hospital. And I 399 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 2: think they said, mate, it's broken. You know, we'll fix 400 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 2: it if it needs fixing, but we can't do any 401 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 2: more with it. You've got to go down to the units. 402 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 2: So anyway, he did his time. I think he was 403 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 2: in on embezzlement or something. He was an accountant or something, 404 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 2: so he was no physical record jockeys. Yeah, mainly things 405 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 2: like drink driving. 406 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 1: And I remember one from Gippsland that ran down the 407 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 1: freeway the wrong one killed. 408 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, that one was there. He was there, very good horseman, well, 409 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 2: lousy driver, yes, bad drunken yeah, it looks like he's 410 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 2: probably given up the grog and his nephew's riding very well. 411 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 2: His nephew wrote it double the other day. So yeah, no, 412 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 2: nothing serious with the jocks, you know, they're always just 413 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 2: in on drink driving and stuff like that. All though 414 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,440 Speaker 2: that was that was a fatality obviously. Yeah, that was 415 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:10,919 Speaker 2: a very good Yeah, that was a bad one. Yes, 416 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,119 Speaker 2: But I think having worked at the races gave me 417 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 2: that laconical Yeah, you could talk to them and they 418 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 2: liked it. You sound a bit like Joe Brown, the 419 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 2: old time race caller. Oh really, do you remember him? 420 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,679 Speaker 2: I do? Yeah, I wish I could have called racers. 421 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 2: They would have been good. Oh yeah. Yeah. So I 422 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 2: think that that racing background actually made it easier to 423 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:33,920 Speaker 2: deal with these people. You know, you're dealing with everyone 424 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 2: from you know, the big wigs and right through to. 425 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 1: Strappers with the bum out of them exactly. Yeah, and 426 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: that's handy in jail. That ability, well, it's proved to 427 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 1: be handy over the years. 428 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:49,879 Speaker 2: Yeah. 429 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,919 Speaker 1: So you were in there for twenty five or six years, 430 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 1: so there's other people that have cropped up come into 431 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 1: your view. And now again Mockbell went out again because 432 00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: he yeah. I think now he must have been there 433 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: briefly then got out. Then did his runner did he? 434 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 2: Well, we have captain, We had our capitan captain and 435 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 2: of the should he escaped on I forget the name 436 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,439 Speaker 2: of the boat, the guy who Yeah, and one of 437 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,640 Speaker 2: the crew, and they loved him. The Greek fellaws, Yeah, 438 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,640 Speaker 2: were they there, Yeah, yeah, they were in. They both 439 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,360 Speaker 2: died in jail. I can't think of the captain's name, 440 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 2: but Isa was one of them. And I think they 441 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 2: both passed away in jaril. And because I used to 442 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:32,920 Speaker 2: say to him, you know, will they say, oh, you're 443 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,880 Speaker 2: not Tony. Yeah, and I'd say, what did you say? 444 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 2: He goes, No, I never give him up. I never 445 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 2: say anything, you know, all of this sort of stuff. 446 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 2: So they actually liked him and yeah, and didn't have 447 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 2: any real hard feelings against him. It seemed like, yeah, 448 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 2: but anyway, they obviously knew what they were doing, so. 449 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: Pretty good at it. And your memories of Tony Mokbell, 450 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: are you sure that it strucks where that that'll be? 451 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 1: After he they prought him from Greece. Oh, yes, and 452 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:08,399 Speaker 1: you know he vanished, he got tipped off. He vanished. 453 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 1: Everybody said, he's run away, you know, and he's at 454 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: the Camel Races in Dubai where you know, he's in 455 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: the container that got on a ship together. And the 456 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: reality was he was hiding at Bonnie Dune and then 457 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 1: he did this trick where he sailed in his own 458 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: yacht that he bought from Western Australia over to the 459 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: Middle East and the end of Greece. Correct then he 460 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 1: was subsequently arrested very wonderfully in Greece with his wig 461 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: on and he was brought back to Australia and he 462 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 1: gets banged up and goes to Jalen. 463 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 2: That's when you've that's when I ran into view. 464 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 1: I think you might have seen at some point Carl Williams. 465 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 2: Very early, very early, when he was a poor Philip, 466 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:56,119 Speaker 2: that he was a nobody. Literally, well, you wouldn't have 467 00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 2: paid attention to him. And what happened next, did he 468 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 2: Well that's when it kicked off, when he got out 469 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,199 Speaker 2: and we had I think it was Jason Moran in 470 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 2: there at the time. Jason was going to go down 471 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 2: to Fulham, I think, and wouldn't go. I think it 472 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:17,120 Speaker 2: was maybe from a bar blue in King Street, him 473 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,119 Speaker 2: and Alphonse I think went on and slashed up a 474 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 2: bar and that's right, and that lead of course to 475 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 2: Elphant's being murdered. Yeah. When I say Carl Williams was there, 476 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 2: he was there, but he was a nobody was there. 477 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 2: And then when he came back in later he went 478 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,160 Speaker 2: to Barwin. He didn't come to Portfellow because there's too 479 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 2: many underworlds at poor Fellow. He was pretty much a 480 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 2: no one, you know. He wasn't any trouble or anything. 481 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 2: No one thought anything about him. Really, we might leave 482 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 2: our first episode there. 483 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: Thanks Brian for joining us and we look forward to 484 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 1: talking to you again. 485 00:26:53,320 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 2: Thanks Andrew, it's been a pleasure. Thanks for listening. 486 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,199 Speaker 1: Life and Crimes is a Sunday Herald Sun production for 487 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:13,640 Speaker 1: True Crime Australia. Our producer is Johnty Burton. For my columns, 488 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 1: features and more, go to Heroldsun dot com dot au, 489 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:23,880 Speaker 1: forward slash Andrew rule one word. For advertising inquiries, go 490 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: to news Podcasts sold at news dot com dot Au. 491 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: That is all one word news podcasts sold And if 492 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: you want further information about this episode, links are in 493 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:39,880 Speaker 1: the description. 494 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,199 Speaker 2: Nine