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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Pit Talk, a Fox Sports and

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Speaker 1: Speed Cafe Formula one podcast. On today's special episode, Daniel

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Speaker 1: Ricardo retires from Formula One, with Liam Lawson set to

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Speaker 1: replace him from the next race in the United States.

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Speaker 1: Why Dames, Michael Lomonato, motorsport writer for Fox Sports Australia.

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Speaker 1: It's great to have your company and the company of

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Speaker 1: my co host from Speed Cafe. I'd tell you what

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Speaker 1: I really think of him, but you'll have to wait

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Speaker 1: around a week for me to publish it. In a

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Speaker 1: graphic on my social media pages. At one forty five am,

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Speaker 1: it's Matt Cosh.

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Speaker 2: But that equates to four forty five pm in Europe,

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Speaker 2: so it's you know, it's peak time for Formula One

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Speaker 2: on Thursday.

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Speaker 1: It's for four forty five pm in UK on Thursday,

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Speaker 1: after five o'clock in Europe. A lot of people are

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Speaker 1: knocked off by then.

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Speaker 2: What are you trying to suggest here, Michael, that it

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Speaker 2: was trying to bury the story.

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Speaker 1: On the eve of Grand Final Friday in Victoria. You're

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Speaker 1: telling me that wasn't a deliver deliver I.

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Speaker 2: Am. I'm not an AFL follower, so makes no difference

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Speaker 2: to me to tell you what. I'm a massive cycling fan.

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Speaker 2: I'm only up to stage fourteen of the Tour de France.

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Speaker 1: I got to work harder. It got a second mid

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Speaker 1: season break for you.

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Speaker 2: Now for you to do that, I know. I bumped

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Speaker 2: into Mark Cavendish and as Singapore paddock and I congratulated

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Speaker 2: him on his stage. Windn't thinking it only happened a

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Speaker 2: week or so before. It was like three months ago,

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Speaker 2: the greatest cyclist in the Tour de France's history. And

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Speaker 2: I've got well done on your recent win, mate, Yeah

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Speaker 2: it was months ago, dude, Get over.

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Speaker 1: He probably thinks that that to you was just such

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Speaker 1: a meaningful victory that had stuck with you for months,

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Speaker 1: that he was really happy to know that he's left

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Speaker 1: such an impression on you.

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Speaker 2: Tell you what. I've interviewed countless Formula one World champions

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Speaker 2: and greats of mad sport. But I went wobbly need

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Speaker 2: when I got a selfie with Mike Cami's the only

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Speaker 2: selfie I've ever got in the Formula one paddock.

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Speaker 1: Just thinking about your knees if you were going up

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Speaker 1: like a hill climb stage, my niece would be wobbly too.

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Speaker 2: My niece has given out thinking about going up here downhill.

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Speaker 1: I'm great, yes, yes, bike or no bike.

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Speaker 2: I do it better on a bike. I've tried, I

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Speaker 2: have tried in my life without a bike, and it's

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Speaker 2: it's painful riding a bike at the best of times.

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Speaker 2: It's more painful when you're riding a bike without the bike.

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Speaker 1: It's difficult to look. We should probably move on, Matt.

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Speaker 1: This is a good conversation for a mid season break,

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Speaker 1: but not for the week we've just had, because it

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Speaker 1: has been a momentous stay in Australian motorsport. Because a

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Speaker 1: week long rumor has been confirmed. After two hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty seven race starts, eight Grand Prix wins, thirty two podiums,

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Speaker 1: Daniel Ricardo has retired from FOURMULA one following Red Bulls

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Speaker 1: decision to drop him from the team for the rest

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Speaker 1: of the season in favor of reserve driver Liam Lawson. Matt.

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Speaker 1: The announcement was made remarkably, as I've alluded to by

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Speaker 1: a Red Bulls RB's social media accounts, at one forty

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Speaker 1: five am Eastern time in Australia, that's called at midnight

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Speaker 1: in perse. Liam Lawson was annowned separately in a short

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Speaker 1: press release at two am or four am in New

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Speaker 1: Zealand primetime. We'll talk about Liam a little bit later

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Speaker 1: on Matt because I think he does deserve his own conversation.

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Speaker 1: We should be excited to welcome a kind of new face,

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Speaker 1: I guess to the grid, considering he's already had a

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Speaker 1: little bit of a debut last year. But let's start

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Speaker 1: with Daniel. I've got some opinions about how this is unfolded,

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Speaker 1: but I'm happy for you to start off. It's been

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Speaker 1: a pretty wild week. We've alluded to some of this

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Speaker 1: already in the podcast, which did obviously following Singapore Grand Prix.

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Speaker 1: Just tell me about your thoughts about how this career

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Speaker 1: has ended so suddenly and quite quietly, I think, considering

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Speaker 1: how loudly he lit up fourma one.

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Speaker 2: I think you've been very generous in your introduction to

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Speaker 2: this saying that Daniel Riccardo has retired. Daniel hasn't retired.

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Speaker 2: Daniel was retired. You know. They put him out to

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Speaker 2: pasture with all the great race horses. He didn't have

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Speaker 2: a choice in the matter, really, and that's a little

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Speaker 2: bit sad, but I guess it's also a product of

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Speaker 2: being in the situation. He put himself in here, He

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Speaker 2: willingly walked into this. Midway through last year, he picked

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Speaker 2: up the baton from Nick Deries, who suffered exactly the

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Speaker 2: same fate. Countless other Red Bull drivers have had this

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Speaker 2: happened to them as well, so it's not unprecedented. It's

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Speaker 2: sort of perfectly normal if you're going to lose your

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Speaker 2: drive mid season that this is the way it's handled.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, not a great The difference here being that

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Speaker 2: most drivers who lose their drive midyear haven't got two

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Speaker 2: hundred and fifty seven grand priests starts their name, eight

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Speaker 2: wins and thirty two podiums off the top of my head,

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Speaker 2: so Daniel does deserve a little bit of respect for that.

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Speaker 2: He's also just a likable guy. So there's just that

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Speaker 2: that there's that human element that feels missing. I think

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Speaker 2: that's what it is. We all see the emotion in Singapore.

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Speaker 2: We can all relate to that because okay, none of us,

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Speaker 2: very few of us if you are well done for

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Speaker 2: being a Formula one driver, but none of us are

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Speaker 2: Formula one drivers. So we can't put ourselves and empathize

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Speaker 2: directly with what he's experiencing. We can all relate to

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Speaker 2: something that we've worked hard for or dreamt of being

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Speaker 2: taken away and taken away against our will, war or

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Speaker 2: through circumstances that beyond our control. So there's a very

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Speaker 2: human element to it. And then to not have that

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Speaker 2: human closure to read it on social media or speak

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Speaker 2: fa dot com if you're five minutes earlier.

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Speaker 1: That is prime time.

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Speaker 2: I'll tell you why it was interesting. It was an

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Speaker 2: interesting little twenty five minutes or so with Liam Liam

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Speaker 2: Lawson stuff coming through. But to not have that human closure.

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Speaker 2: Even at McLaren there was that little there's that video

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Speaker 2: of Daniel, that heartreaching video of Daniel there that gave

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Speaker 2: us that closure. In this instance, there's a short statement.

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Speaker 2: We assume it's Daniel that's written it. We don't know.

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Speaker 2: There was a statements from Laura Meckiers. There's been some

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Speaker 2: social media posts from Christian Horner. It's just there's not

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Speaker 2: this human touche. Social media is all arms length, you know,

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Speaker 2: we can hide behind the keyboard there and that sort.

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Speaker 2: I think it's missing. And that's why I think we

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Speaker 2: feel a little bit short changed because what we saw

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Speaker 2: was so human, so laid bare for us. Did I

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Speaker 2: think we all feel a little bit sorry and a

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Speaker 2: little bit hard done by, so we're sort of empathizing

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Speaker 2: and projecting on behalf of Daniel.

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Speaker 1: I'd find this whole thing almost unbelievable. Now we've sort

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Speaker 1: of already talked a little bit about this in the

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Speaker 1: previous podcast. I don't object to him being let go

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Speaker 1: early because there are reasons. We'll get to some of those,

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Speaker 1: expanded some of those a little bit later, but there

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Speaker 1: are reasons to justify that. It's not pure performance, but

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Speaker 1: it's performance against the bar he was said at the

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Speaker 1: start of the year, which was to be so compelling

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Speaker 1: that he was a shoe in to replace Surge of Perez,

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Speaker 1: which he hasn't been. Totally fine. Liam Lawson clearly deserves

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Speaker 1: a seat as well. We know that after last year.

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Speaker 1: Totally fine. It's clear now that red Bull has made

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Speaker 1: this decision before Singapore, even if it hasn't communicated it

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Speaker 1: formerly to Daniel. We know that because by the time

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Speaker 1: he got to Sunday night, he knew that he was

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Speaker 1: not going to be in the car anymore. He knew

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Speaker 1: in a way he didn't before the weekend. We're talking

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Speaker 1: about naytime Grand Prim We've talked about the stats a

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Speaker 1: case when the plenty lots of times seven of those

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Speaker 1: wins came with Red Bull racing during I think. I

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Speaker 1: think what we sometimes forget is a pretty fallow intertitle

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Speaker 1: era for Red Bull, at a time where there was

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Speaker 1: genuine thoughts that okay, maybe not that they would never

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Speaker 1: win a championship again, but that it wasn't as close

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Speaker 1: as it ended up being in twenty twenty one after

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Speaker 1: they tied up with Honda. In that time, he comfortably

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Speaker 1: made himself one of the biggest stars in the sport.

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Speaker 1: As before Drive to Survive, mind you, he was one

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Speaker 1: of the first Formula one drivers to really crack the

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Speaker 1: United States, which is remarkable considering the sports history there

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Speaker 1: before Drive to Survive. That show on Netflix then cemented

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Speaker 1: him as for one of a better phrase and f

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Speaker 1: one main character. He is one of the guys, and

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Speaker 1: that he is separate from his later performances. But that's

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Speaker 1: also fine because that's the way Formula one exists. Now.

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Speaker 1: There is the on track and there is the off track,

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Speaker 1: and they can be separate and they can both be

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Speaker 1: relevant to how Formula one is consumed and White it's

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Speaker 1: popular and White works. I just don't get how a

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Speaker 1: social media post between races while Daniel sitting on his

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Speaker 1: farm in Perth justifies that career. And while Red Bull's

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Speaker 1: given a lot to Daniel, undoubtedly it gave him his

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Speaker 1: Formula One chance. It brought him up through a couple

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Speaker 1: of years of junior racing as well, and gave him

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Speaker 1: his second chance in fact, and I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of people didn't think he'd get one. He also gave

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Speaker 1: a lot back to this brand, including those wins, his

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Speaker 1: dedication to the reserve driver role at the start of

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Speaker 1: last year. Okay, he just do a lot of press

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Speaker 1: conferences and curse sponsor commitments and things like that, but

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Speaker 1: always professional like, committed to it hard and likewise his

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Speaker 1: second stint in the cockpit committed to that immensely. And

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Speaker 1: okay him not personally, but his brand played a massive

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Speaker 1: role in bringing to enormous sponsors to both teams in

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Speaker 1: visa and cash app. I know there's no room for

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Speaker 1: sentiment in Formula One like its performance at the end

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Speaker 1: of the day, as I said already, but this is

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Speaker 1: just such a massive own goal for the Red Bull

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Speaker 1: organation the way this has been handled, And if I

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Speaker 1: were Formula one. I'd be pretty disappointed by this side,

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Speaker 1: because it's not any f one's hands at the end

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Speaker 1: of the day. But you've seen again, and I use

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Speaker 1: the phrase, a main character ushered off stage quietly, and

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Speaker 1: fans are going to tune in in Austin and it's

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Speaker 1: gonna be a different driver there. It's kind of like

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Speaker 1: if you're watching your favorite soap and suddenly favorite characters

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Speaker 1: played by a different actor and it's not acknowledged. I

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Speaker 1: just think the whole thing has come across and I

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Speaker 1: know there will be reasons for it, and there'll be

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Speaker 1: justifications for it, but it's come across as so shambolic.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I take your point. It is probably not the

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Speaker 2: way that in an ideal world anyone would handle. I

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Speaker 2: don't know how much choice Red Bull really had in

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Speaker 2: the matter. I wonder how many other factors there were

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Speaker 2: just tying them to this course of action. I believe

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Speaker 2: Daniel knew going into Singapore that he was done. There

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Speaker 2: was an opportunity for him maybe to not be done

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Speaker 2: that weekend. But Liam Lawson was on New Zeland Radio

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Speaker 2: and the conversation that he had there heavily suggested that

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Speaker 2: Daniel knew going into the weekend, what the outcome of

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Speaker 2: the weekend was.

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Speaker 1: He wasn't told. This is a difference, I think, because

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Speaker 1: I think there is a difference because I think you're right,

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Speaker 1: Like there's this idea of the writing being on the wall,

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Speaker 1: but that's different to the writing being on the former

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Speaker 1: piece of paper that lets you put into motion essentially

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Speaker 1: what would have been a retirement plan.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, not being able to acknowledge it is tough,

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Speaker 2: you know, at least going into abud W twenty two

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Speaker 2: with McLaren, you know, they acknowledged it. They celebrated, They

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Speaker 2: had those the kooky cowboy hats, which is actually sitting

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Speaker 2: up on my bookshelf here. There was just there was

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Speaker 2: this ability for the team to acknowledge and celebrate, even

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Speaker 2: though it wasn't necessarily happy relationship or marriage for those

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Speaker 2: two seasons. Daniel deserved something because of the role he's

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Speaker 2: played in the sport. I accept that. But at the

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Speaker 2: same time, Daniels had that he threw himself into the

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Speaker 2: fire midway through last year. He didn't have to come back.

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Speaker 2: This was always a possibility he was you know, he

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Speaker 2: went into this knowing that he may not go out

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Speaker 2: on his terms and he accepted that risk. So to me,

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Speaker 2: while I see your point and I agree that red

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Speaker 2: Bull probably ideally would have handled this differently, Daniel had

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Speaker 2: a second opportunity that most drivers will never get. He

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Speaker 2: had a first opportunity most rubles, and let's be honest,

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Speaker 2: but to have a second bite at that, you know,

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Speaker 2: he can't be too upset because he experienced something that

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Speaker 2: very few people who make it have, very few people

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Speaker 2: r on full stop. But his one races, he's stood

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Speaker 2: on podiums, he's taken faster laps Singapore, He's done so

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Speaker 2: much more than could realistically ever be hoped for that

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Speaker 2: he didn't get this one thing. Yeah, he can be

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Speaker 2: upset and sad at it, but I don't think can

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Speaker 2: be overwhelmed by it because he's already had it ended

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Speaker 2: at McLaren. So, yeah, I don't like the way it

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Speaker 2: was handled either, but I don't think it bothers me

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Speaker 2: as much as it bothers you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Look, it's the broad picture is You're right, you know,

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Speaker 1: will zoom out of this in a year or two

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Speaker 1: and it's fine, Like no one's going to remember the

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Speaker 1: same way that most people won't remember. How Sebastian Vidal

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Speaker 1: was farewelled because you'll remember his sports.

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Speaker 2: Champions Michael Schumacher. Yeah, exactly about Michael Schumer. He was

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Speaker 2: sacked by Ferrari, benched in favor of Kimmy Reichenan. So

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Speaker 2: this isn't There are no sacred cows in Formula one.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't matter who you are.

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Speaker 1: I look and I take that point, and I agree

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Speaker 1: with it, but I just think that it's almost less

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Speaker 1: even about him, and it is about the sport more

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Speaker 1: generally about the fans of the sport the end of

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Speaker 1: the day. That's the reason we're here, that we're able

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Speaker 1: to continue to write about the sport, to do this podcast.

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Speaker 1: The reason that Formula one is such a big deal,

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Speaker 1: the reason we talk about these sponsors and these teams,

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Speaker 1: how they're also valuable, is that because the sport is

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Speaker 1: popular at the moment, it's popular because the drivers are characters.

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Speaker 1: It's sort of It's something I've been sort of thinking

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Speaker 1: about in the last few days, comparing it to Moto GP,

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Speaker 1: and it is not the Moto GP version of Pit Talk,

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Speaker 1: but they are sharing an owner now or they probably

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Speaker 1: will anyway in Liberty Media, and I was sort of

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Speaker 1: thinking about that. I know it's pending European that's a

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Speaker 1: different story, different story, different podcasts, different podcast but they've

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Speaker 1: done two things. Comparing the two sports. Formula one has

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Speaker 1: always been quite good at telling stories, but it's also

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Speaker 1: always been quite bad at giving drivers their individuality, and

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Speaker 1: Moto gp' has always been really opposite. It's really loved

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Speaker 1: having these individual drivers with these really identifiable brands. You know,

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Speaker 1: just as one relatively low level example, Moto GP got

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Speaker 1: onto the rider numbers thing way before Formula One let

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Speaker 1: drivers have their own numbers, and those became the brands

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Speaker 1: or the rights of that kind of thing. Motor GP

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Speaker 1: is the opposite. Like I say, it's not never been

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Speaker 1: that good at telling the story, but it's always really

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Speaker 1: good at the rider thing. And I think this is

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Speaker 1: a really big example of Formula One still having that

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Speaker 1: in its heart, is that it's great at telling the narrative.

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Speaker 1: Like there's this great narrative about this guy from Australia

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Speaker 1: one of those races, really exciting, but then he just

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Speaker 1: becomes part of the machine at the end of the day.

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Speaker 1: And you know, we say it all the time, and

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Speaker 1: we say it for good reason. You know, when we

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Speaker 1: talk about team orders and things that these drivers they're

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Speaker 1: just employees of the teams, And of course that's correct,

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Speaker 1: but that's not the mystique of sport, like forming on

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Speaker 1: is built on your average fan doesn't want to know

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Speaker 1: that old maid is a salary guy who's got a

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Speaker 1: three year contract and maybe it'll be up. Like that's

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Speaker 1: just not that doesn't sell the sport in an exciting way.

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Speaker 1: And so while it's perfect, you know, obviously it was

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Speaker 1: perfectly by the book, Ricardo was dismissed because I'm sure

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Speaker 1: there were contractual implications in light had to unfold this way.

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Speaker 1: They can always be negotiated around if you know you're

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Speaker 1: going to sack your driver, But nonetheless, that's just not

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Speaker 1: what builds the sport. And I'm really surprised with Red

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Speaker 1: Bull in particular because this was the brand to give

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Speaker 1: it its full credit before Liberty Media arrived. Essentially was

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Speaker 1: the F one marketing department, like Red Bull was what

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Speaker 1: made F one grow in let's say, the decade before

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Speaker 1: Liberty Media rocked up, because they were so good at

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Speaker 1: this stuff, like this is what they did, and it's

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Speaker 1: part of the reason why Riccardo was such a big

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Speaker 1: start because he was one of the few stars out

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Speaker 1: of team behind him, backing him, and that was such

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Speaker 1: a big deal. And that's what I find almost most

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Speaker 1: surprising about this, that it's Red Bull that has managed

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Speaker 1: to badly handle this. You know, I'd expect this from

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Speaker 1: half a dozen other teams, but from Red Bull. It's surprising.

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Speaker 1: Like even I was talking to colleague of mine and

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Speaker 1: he raised this, I hadn't really thought about it. Why

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Speaker 1: wouldn't you give him Austin, Like Austin is the Ricardo race,

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Speaker 1: so he's actually got quite a poor record in Austin,

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Speaker 1: But it's you know, you would let him ride in

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Speaker 1: and the horse in the paddock, you'd sell a couple

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Speaker 1: of grand of those cowboy hats. Daniel Ricardo farewell probably finished,

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Speaker 1: maybe finish, who knows, maybe finished into points. Probably wouldn't

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Speaker 1: considering the state of that car. But nonetheless, and then

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Speaker 1: he calls it a day, and then Lawson comes in.

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Speaker 1: You have a great handover. You let him sort of

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Speaker 1: retire again in inverted commas on his own terms, on

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Speaker 1: his own terms, and also in inverted commas, that just

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Speaker 1: seems like another a massive own goal. I think that's

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Speaker 1: maybe what I find most surprising about all of this

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Speaker 1: is that there were opportunities here to make this a

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Speaker 1: kind of like a obviously not a win for everyone,

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Speaker 1: because Daniel doesn't win out of this in any situation,

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Speaker 1: but almost like a win win And this just doesn't

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Speaker 1: cut it on any level.

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Speaker 2: It does if you take the sporting hat off and

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Speaker 2: put the business hat on, because if you keep Daniel on,

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Speaker 2: you keep paying Daniel, and if you accept that you

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Speaker 2: are making the decision, then you just make the bloody decision.

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Speaker 2: You don't prolong it, you don't protract it. I'm surprised

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Speaker 2: he's lasted this long, if I'm perfect. As soon as

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Speaker 2: the decision was made to retain so Joe Perez, Daniel

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Speaker 2: was dead in the water. He didn't have a future

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Speaker 2: with Red Bull Racing. Therefore, what was his purpose at RB. Therefore,

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Speaker 2: you know he's the past. You need to now start

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Speaker 2: looking at the future. And that's ultimately what this is

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Speaker 2: all about. The reason Liam Lawson is coming in is

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Speaker 2: to get that sixth race run towards the back end

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Speaker 2: of the year. I will talk about Liam in a

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Speaker 2: little bit, and I want to draw down on some

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Speaker 2: of the nuance and the language of his announcement but

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Speaker 2: if you make that decision, you just make it. So

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Speaker 2: the Austin thing, I know, there was some suggestion that

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Speaker 2: he might go on there and the assistance in the

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Speaker 2: insistence of visa. There was some desire because Daniel is

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Speaker 2: such a big brand in the United States and he

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Speaker 2: does term the American Girl or the US Groan Prix

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Speaker 2: is second home race, even though he's Australian and Italian.

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Speaker 2: You know, I mean, we're going to start getting into

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Speaker 2: Oscar Piastri home race territory here. But there was some

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Speaker 2: desire to do that and that was a contributing factor

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Speaker 2: in terms of not making the announcement in Singapore or

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Speaker 2: ahead of Singapore and giving Daniel that send off. But

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Speaker 2: I yeah, I guess I'm less a motive when it

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Speaker 2: comes to this the you I'm more pragmatic in that

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Speaker 2: if it doesn't stuck up. From a business perspective, Formula

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Speaker 2: one is a business. It's a sport, yes, but it's

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Speaker 2: a business. We're talking about teams are worth hundreds of

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Speaker 2: million dollars. There's cost caps that need to be managed.

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Speaker 2: You cut your losses. You know, there's an economic theory

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Speaker 2: where your first loss is your least so you cut

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Speaker 2: and run. It doesn't make sense to prolong that. What

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Speaker 2: benefit do you get other than making a bloke feel good.

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Speaker 1: Yes again, I just sort of take that point. But

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Speaker 1: it is a business in a sport. Like sport businesses

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Speaker 1: are unique because they are not run they are run

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Speaker 1: ultimately by the bottom line. We're contributing to the bottom line.

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Speaker 1: There is a vibe, there is an appeal. If people

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Speaker 1: don't like your sport you want to watch, they feel

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Speaker 1: put off by it. That does affect the bottom line

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Speaker 1: in a way that if people don't like your supermarket,

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Speaker 1: they don't know. Certainly in Austraia they don't have much

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Speaker 1: choice but to shop at your supermarket. So there's a

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Speaker 1: bit of it. I think there's still a difference there.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean for red Bull, I'm just surprised

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Speaker 1: of all the brands to do it. In another sense, tho,

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Speaker 1: I'm not surprised. Maybe we should finish with this before

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Speaker 1: we move to Liam that it's Red Bull because clearly

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Speaker 1: influencing this decison. Okay, they're contractualize on all that kind

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Speaker 1: of stuff, but there is also this specter of the

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Speaker 1: team not really knowing it's still trying to handle or

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Speaker 1: trying to work its way through what's been a difficult

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Speaker 1: period for its driver lineups, right, and this has been

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Speaker 1: part of it is that it's almost like they've realized

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Speaker 1: it's been dawning on them over the last year or

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Speaker 1: so as well, that they have this problem with the

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Speaker 1: full driver lineup, the four car driver lineup. Ricardo was

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Speaker 1: hopefully going to be the solution to it. Turned out

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Speaker 1: he wasn't going to be, and that's put them in

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Speaker 1: a little bit of trouble again. The background of that is,

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Speaker 1: of course, this power dynamic, this power struggle between Christian

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Speaker 1: Horner Helmut Marco, each wanting to put their own marks

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Speaker 1: on the team and how it works. And we've talked

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Speaker 1: about it a couple of times this year, Matt, haven't

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Speaker 1: we how ARB was meant to be its own team,

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Speaker 1: but actually Helmet Marker thinks it should go back to

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Speaker 1: being a junior team and that seems to be where

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Speaker 1: it is right now that Daniel Riccardo's been dismissed. That's

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Speaker 1: sort of the context, isn't it, of the difficulty of

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Speaker 1: all these decisions and puts a lot of I mean,

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Speaker 1: it makes this decision in particular, I suppose quite a

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Speaker 1: big one, because this sets the tone for the next

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Speaker 1: a year or so of how this lineup's going to look.

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Speaker 1: Without talking about Lemos and just yet, but I think

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Speaker 1: that there's a lot that's behind the scenes that I

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Speaker 1: guess is not immediately obvious, that's influenced this decision happening

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Speaker 1: in the way it has.

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Speaker 2: This has got a tiny bit and only a tony

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Speaker 2: bit to do with Daniel's performance. If Daniel got out

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Speaker 2: there and blowing the doors off off Yukisnoda, he'd being

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Speaker 2: the Red Bull and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

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Speaker 2: The future will be set for at least a couple

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Speaker 2: of years, or at least through to twenty six, in

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Speaker 2: which case leaves in the RB and he's got experience

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Speaker 2: and all that sort of stuff. But he didn't do that.

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Speaker 2: So there is a portion of performance in there as well.

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Speaker 2: There's politics, and in there you mentioned the power struggle

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Speaker 2: between Marco and Horner, and it's even bigger than that.

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Speaker 2: It goes up to the tie the Austrian side of

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Speaker 2: Red Bull. There's another element here. I was speaking to

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Speaker 2: someone who knows a little bit about this situation and

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Speaker 2: I'm just going to quickly Google a name here to

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Speaker 2: make sure I don't butcher it. But there are three

432
00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:07,720
Speaker 2: people in the sort of power trumvirent of Red bull

433
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:14,280
Speaker 2: Driver decisions, and they're colloquially known as the Austrian Mafia.

434
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,680
Speaker 2: One of them is Helmet Marco. One of them is

435
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:24,440
Speaker 2: Thomas Uberung, who actually used to run Red Bulls motorsport

436
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,440
Speaker 2: program before Marco got involved in the early two thousands.

437
00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,280
Speaker 2: He was actually responsible for running Christian Klean back in

438
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:34,040
Speaker 2: Formula whatever it was back in the late nineties. He

439
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:36,480
Speaker 2: was Dietricht Madership's right hand man. He's on the Horner

440
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,720
Speaker 2: side of the fence. Mark obviously is on the Marco

441
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:43,040
Speaker 2: side of these. And then the third player in that

442
00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:50,399
Speaker 2: little posse is gerhard Berger. Now, without diving into too much,

443
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,479
Speaker 2: which side of the fence do you think gerhard Berger

444
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:54,159
Speaker 2: might fall on?

445
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,800
Speaker 1: Well, that's interesting because I didn't like to bring personal

446
00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:00,920
Speaker 1: relationships into this, but certainly I would let me flip

447
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,040
Speaker 1: it around. Is well, okay, hang on, I was thinking

448
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,119
Speaker 1: of Daniel Ocado's perspective here. If Daniel's on Christian side,

449
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,360
Speaker 1: Daniel is on Gearhard side, is Gearheard on Daniels side

450
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:11,400
Speaker 1: and therefore on Christian side.

451
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,000
Speaker 2: That's the implication. Yeah, yeah, So it seems as of

452
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,679
Speaker 2: those sort of three, you've got two on one. I

453
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:20,680
Speaker 2: guess it's invariable that you're gonna end up with two

454
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 2: on one side one on the other. But what's curious

455
00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,760
Speaker 2: is that is that Marco and all of this has

456
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,840
Speaker 2: won out when when you wind the clock back to

457
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:33,600
Speaker 2: and I think this will lead us nicely into Liam

458
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,920
Speaker 2: Lawson when you wind the clock back to post the

459
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,280
Speaker 2: British Grand Prix last year, when Daniel was dropped into

460
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:43,520
Speaker 2: that seat, Daniel usurped Liam into that seat. Liam had

461
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,000
Speaker 2: the deal and Daniel basically took it off him. Well

462
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 2: Daniel didn't take it off him. It was taken off

463
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,920
Speaker 2: of Liam and given to Daniel, and that was done

464
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,199
Speaker 2: by Christian Horner.

465
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 1: See that's sort of interesting in that context as well.

466
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 1: And I guess we're getting into the weeds now something

467
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,840
Speaker 1: it happened to you ago. But of course Nick Davrees

468
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,359
Speaker 1: was a Marco pick, famously a Marco. I can probably

469
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 1: call it an impulse pick with no disrespect to him,

470
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,080
Speaker 1: but it was after one race. I think that that

471
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 1: classifies as impulsive. And then it was sort of his

472
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,960
Speaker 1: I guess almost reluctant acknowledgment that it had been wrong.

473
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 1: It was the first time I've ever heard him admit

474
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 1: to being wrong about a driver decision, or, more to

475
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:25,679
Speaker 1: the point, admitting that someone else had been right, that

476
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,200
Speaker 1: being Christian Horner, who wasn't a fan of Nick Devrees

477
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 1: or not a fan of him jumping in at Alpha

478
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 1: Tower as it was anyway, and then Horner's pick of

479
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 1: Daniel Ricardo got in. We know it was time with

480
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,719
Speaker 1: that tie test all that kind of stuff. It's almost

481
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 1: like they have to take this little wins turn by turn,

482
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 1: isn't it. It's sort of a lot of interesting.

483
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 2: Was Daniel's return link to that tire test, cause we

484
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 2: all hear about it.

485
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 1: Certainly the deal was signed, there wasn't it.

486
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 2: That's what the deal was signed. But the outcome was

487
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 2: a decision was made over a single lap. No, I

488
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 2: doubt that, because that's absolutely what it was. Yeah, right,

489
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 2: So I think that's a little bit of a red herring.

490
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 2: That's the story that's been spun to us. It's a

491
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 2: nice little tale and a good example of why, but

492
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 2: it's not the full story that It's interesting. That's a

493
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 2: theme that runs all the way through this tale of

494
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,679
Speaker 2: ups and down. So Red Bull and Daniel Ricardo and

495
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 2: Liam Lawson and everything else, we're getting little snippets. There's

496
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,440
Speaker 2: a whole lot more that we're not getting to sort

497
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:23,879
Speaker 2: of paint that full picture.

498
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,119
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about Liam Lawson now. There will be

499
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 1: plenty of time to unpack more Daniel Ricardo as we go.

500
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,400
Speaker 1: I'm sure we can talk about him plenty lots of times.

501
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 1: Had a long career, very successful career. But Liam Lawson

502
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:37,679
Speaker 1: is the coming man, isn't he. We should give him

503
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:39,680
Speaker 1: his due, and I want to start here. Actually the

504
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:41,400
Speaker 1: nip this in the bar, and we did talk about

505
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 1: a little bit last week. But Matt, I've been a

506
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 1: little bit disappointed to see online some people come out

507
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 1: against Liam because of the way he's ended up replacing Ricardo.

508
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:50,399
Speaker 1: I think you said it pretty well last week actually,

509
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 1: that he is totally removed from the decision making and

510
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,360
Speaker 1: the handling of this situation, just a driver who wants

511
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,879
Speaker 1: his chance. We shouldn't begrudge him that, and we should

512
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:03,919
Speaker 1: be able to celebrate his arrival quite separate from his

513
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,399
Speaker 1: from Ricardo's retirement. Rather, I guess the other half of

514
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 1: that is that, and this surprised me a little bit

515
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 1: as well, Matt. I know I keep talking about the

516
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 1: human element of the sport, but you have to forgive

517
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 1: me for that. I think it is important is that

518
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,639
Speaker 1: the side effect of this sort of funny way Red

519
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 1: Bull's gone about this whole situation is that I was

520
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,200
Speaker 1: surprised that it didn't celebrate him more in its announcement.

521
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 1: It was a pretty brief press release, contained only quotes

522
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,360
Speaker 1: from team rerins Laura Mecke's. In fact, Lauren's quotes were

523
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 1: about Liam were shorter than it was about Daniel, and

524
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,119
Speaker 1: they weren't even that long to begin with. It's almost

525
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 1: like the whole situations made the team a little bit

526
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:39,919
Speaker 1: too afraid to go too big on what should be

527
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 1: quite an exciting announcement about a driver who could be

528
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 1: its long term future.

529
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,120
Speaker 2: It's just a very good point, and Liam is going

530
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 2: to be painted as a pantomine villain by a lot

531
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 2: of people here. That's massively unfair. To reiterate what I've

532
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 2: said on the regular Pot earlier in the week. Liam

533
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 2: is not to blame here. Daniel had his career in

534
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 2: his own hands, and the reasons we've just discussed it

535
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 2: didn't work. Part of those performance, part of that is politics,

536
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 2: but none of that is Lim's doing. Liam is just

537
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 2: you know, it could be Liam. It could be I mean, hell,

538
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 2: it could be Franco colo Pinto in that position. It

539
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 2: could be any one of those young guys desperate for

540
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 2: a chance, just as Daniel once was. Let's not forget

541
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 2: Daniel came in midway through the twenty eleven season at HRT.

542
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 2: He replaced was Cartin or wasn't carth Kaine that he replaced.

543
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,679
Speaker 1: Was because then didn't cart Kin come back for the

544
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 1: Indian Grand Prix, but he then replaced Was it Lutsi

545
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 1: in the other car at the time?

546
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 2: Quite possibly? I think you're right.

547
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 1: I think there are quite a few.

548
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 2: Anyway, they were squeezing every penny because they didn't have

549
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 2: too many of them. But that's my point. In that instance,

550
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,440
Speaker 2: Daniel is blameless for whatever driver it was losing their drive,

551
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 2: just as in this case, Lim is is blameless for

552
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,879
Speaker 2: Daniel losing his drive. And to Lim's credit, he's come

553
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 2: out and addressed that elephant again on the in the

554
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 2: interview in New Zealand's Radio, he said, you know, he's

555
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 2: got a huge amount of respect for how he being

556
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 2: Daniel Ricardo dealt with everything, because I really can't imagine

557
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 2: what that was like. You know, he's a lot more public,

558
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:16,360
Speaker 2: a lot more famous than what Liam is, even though

559
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,479
Speaker 2: Liam had a little taste of that last year with

560
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 2: you know, with the cameo. Daniel's just he's got so

561
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 2: much respect for Daniel, and that's what I liked to hear. Conversely,

562
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 2: Daniel's got a lot of respect for Lim. Daniel's been

563
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 2: hiding nothing, He's been helping Liam all the way through.

564
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,679
Speaker 2: Daniel has said, there's always been in his hands and

565
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:40,120
Speaker 2: he holds no ill feeling or grudges or whatever against Lim.

566
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 2: So let's give me Liam is fair Jew's he's a

567
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 2: young kid who's worked bloody hard to get there. Yes,

568
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 2: he's had some lucky breaks along the way. He's had

569
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 2: some fortune courtesy of misfortune for others, but that's life.

570
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 2: I'm sure there are people, you know, if not yourself,

571
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 2: who have benefited from the misfortune of others. So let's

572
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,919
Speaker 2: not dress it up as anything other than that. Really.

573
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 2: But also, Lim's unlucky to be where he is because,

574
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 2: as I said just before, he had a deal to

575
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 2: be in that car a year ago and he had

576
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 2: that deal pulled out from under him by Christian Horne

577
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 2: giving it to Daniels. So he sat quietly on the sidelines,

578
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 2: doing the right thing by the team, doing all the

579
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 2: things that we've praised Daniel for doing, you know, saying

580
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 2: the right things, doing the right things. Lim's done all

581
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,959
Speaker 2: of that, having basically had the contract pulled from him,

582
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 2: and the same I understand happened again this year. So

583
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,199
Speaker 2: for Liam to agree to join I again not that

584
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 2: he really had a choice but to agree to join

585
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 2: RB because there was an option that Red Bull did

586
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 2: exercise on the Sunday of the Azerbaijaga on Preyer, and

587
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,239
Speaker 2: by exercise, they basically needed to not do anything. The

588
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 2: only way out of the contract for Red Bull at

589
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 2: that point was to notify that they didn't intend to continue.

590
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 2: They didn't do that. So the implication was Liam had

591
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 2: a guaranteed race seat and it's a guaranteed race seat

592
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 2: for twenty twenty four at RB if you read the

593
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 2: press release.

594
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, the twenty twenty four part is not I think

595
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 1: the most interesting part to pick up on here because

596
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 1: we can talk a little bit now about our expectations,

597
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 1: not just of Liam's performance because I think we don't

598
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 1: really even talk about that because we've seen what he's

599
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 1: capable of already. That five race run okay, it was

600
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 1: relatively short, but was a decent window into what we

601
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: can expect from him, and he really hit the ground

602
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: running last time, and this year he's got I guess,

603
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: a little bit of a bigger run up because the

604
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: expectation was building. He's been very much the dedicated reserve.

605
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 1: He hasn't had a parallel racing series to compete in

606
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 1: as well, so he's had well I don't know if

607
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 1: we should continue to refer to it, but it's almost

608
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 1: like the Oscar piastre build up of just focusing on

609
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 1: being the reserve drive and then you get your shot

610
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: sort of thing. So there's that element of it.

611
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 2: Maybe we should let's update that to the jack doing.

612
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yes, Well he's taken the reins. Now, maybe

613
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: we can refer it from now on as the Leam

614
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: Lawson method, because at least coming in the mid season

615
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 1: it's a little bit more applicable than just coming in

616
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 1: the following year. But it's pecifically according to the press release,

617
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: the short press release twenty twenty four, which is the

618
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 1: last six races of this year. Help Mark has already

619
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 1: said expect an engine penalty for the first race in

620
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 1: the United States, So good luck to you, Leam. But

621
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five is the big game here, isn't it.

622
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously he's not here to just race of

623
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 1: six races. He doesn't want that. He wants to continue racing,

624
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 1: and Andy Climactic wouldn't and certainly no one expects him

625
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 1: to do such a bad job. He's not going to

626
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,719
Speaker 1: be around next year. I think that's just inconceivable. And

627
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 1: Red Bull also really doesn't need another driver conundrum at

628
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 1: the end of the year if it were to drop

629
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 1: him suddenly. So I think that we can take it

630
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 1: as read he's going to be around next year. But

631
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 1: it certainly seems to me that this leaves doors open

632
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 1: for him to, if he does a good enough job,

633
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 1: be the guy who replaces Sergio Peritz. Because we've talked

634
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: about this all year man or certainly for the last

635
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 1: few months. He is losing the team to construct this championship.

636
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 1: In fact, as of Azerbaijan, he has lost the team

637
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 1: the lead in the Constructor's Championship. It seems pretty difficult

638
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 1: from the winner back unless he has a really remarkable

639
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 1: turn around the second half or last six races rather,

640
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 1: and if it's only more competitive next year and he

641
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 1: hasn't shown that he can turn that form sump around,

642
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 1: what would be the point of keeping him, To go

643
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 1: back to the whole reason we've dropped that the team's

644
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: dropped Daniel. If you know he's not going to be

645
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 1: the long term, what's the point in keeping him. There's

646
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 1: a lot on the line. I get the sentence for

647
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: Liam in this last six races, beyond just the prospect

648
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 1: of maybe sticking at RB next year.

649
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 2: Liam's got a contract for twenty twenty five. I'll tell

650
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 2: you that right now. I'm not speculating. I'm not hypothesizing.

651
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 2: Liam has a contract for twenty twenty five. The announcement

652
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 2: only mentioned twenty twenty four because that way the opportunity

653
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 2: is there to place him either at RB for next

654
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 2: year or Red Bull. You're not constrained either way. But

655
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 2: there is a contract in place that Liam will be

656
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 2: in a race seat for twenty twenty five. Otherwise, why

657
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 2: would you agree he knocked back another contract to take

658
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 2: this one. I mean not that again, not that he

659
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 2: had a choice because Red Bull exercised that option. As

660
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 2: soon as they did. That option was a guarantee strive

661
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 2: for twenty twenty five. So Lim's on the grid next year.

662
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 2: It's just a question of easy wearing blue or white overalls.

663
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 2: That's the bigger question here. If Liam does well, the

664
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 2: understanding is that Sergo Perris is already in breach of

665
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 2: contract for next year. He hadn't scored enough points by

666
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 2: the summer break. Red Bull, if they so chose, could

667
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:20,479
Speaker 2: part ways with him at the end of the season,

668
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 2: and that's all within their rights to do that. Obviously,

669
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 2: Lim's going to show something something, certainly something more than

670
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 2: what Daniel did, clearly and more than what Yuki has done.

671
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 2: But if he does that, we then start to see

672
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 2: this grand plan taking shape, because getting rid of Daniel

673
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 2: now a forged Red Bull an opportunity in two years

674
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 2: time that it wouldn't have if it waits to the

675
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 2: end of the year. If it waits at the end

676
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 2: of the year, it has to put Limb at ourb

677
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 2: next year. It can't put him at Red Bull. That's

678
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 2: too great a risk, and we've seen that they're comparatively

679
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 2: risk averse strangely by not putting Daniel there, so by

680
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 2: having Leam in for the last six races. And this

681
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 2: goes back to the point you know, why not give

682
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 2: Daniel last, and well, you want to maximize your chance

683
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 2: of assessing Liam. Give him the six races, see how

684
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 2: he stacks up. You then have a really good opportunity

685
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 2: to make an informed decision either of RB or Red Bull.

686
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 2: If he goes to Red Bull, you've then got Isaac Hadja,

687
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 2: who can goes straight into that. A partner Yuki Sonoda

688
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 2: for a year. Yuki then goes off to probably Aston

689
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 2: Martin with Honda. I mean, Yuki's only there because of Honda.

690
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 2: Yuki is not there because of Yuki. Yuki's there because

691
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 2: Red Bull need him there for Honda. And then in

692
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 2: twenty twenty six you have an opportunity to promote probably

693
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 2: are with Limbland the way things are going, but who knows.

694
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 2: There's a couple of other drivers in the mix there

695
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 2: and he seems to be the most likely winner. He

696
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:47,959
Speaker 2: go He's off a bar DC Driver of the Year

697
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 2: and all sort of young Driver of the Year, all

698
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 2: sorts of stuff. But again, if you wait until next year,

699
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 2: you then go to twenty six and you're having Haja

700
00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 2: or limb Bland Limb Blab, both being rookies in that car. Conversely,

701
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 2: had Jo is an insurance policy for Liam Lawson because

702
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 2: let's say Liam goes up to Red Bull next year,

703
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 2: Hadja comes into the RB, Hadya shines and Liam doesn't. Well,

704
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 2: you pull the old Alex Albn Daniel Kveat trick and

705
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 2: slop him around. That's what happened.

706
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 1: Was it was, But I just read more just the

707
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,439
Speaker 1: way Daniel Caveat was dell with is just you never want,

708
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: you never want to be in the same sentence, I

709
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:27,320
Speaker 1: think with his handling at Red Bull, I just feel

710
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 1: like that's cruel. It's yeah, you're you're absolutely right. I

711
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 1: think that there. I mean, I'm not even convinced that

712
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 1: Liam Lawson needs to have an absolutely outstanding last six

713
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 1: races to get that trigger pulled, because he's dealing with

714
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 1: the handicap of having only just started this season. Plus

715
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 1: he'll be in his handicap of having an indie penalty

716
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 1: first race of that kind of thing. Plus there are

717
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 1: three sprints in the second half in his six races,

718
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 1: which means there's way less practice time than usual, I

719
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 1: think he only has to show decently to be convincing

720
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 1: that he's capable of taking that stef But and that

721
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 1: means probably even though you'd ideally like to see him

722
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 1: beating UQ, but even if he just matches with him,

723
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:08,839
Speaker 1: I think that's still fairly impressive, considering the way he'll

724
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 1: have come into the sport and the relatively little non

725
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 1: competitive seat time he'll have available to him in these

726
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 1: last six rounds, I think that would be compelling. Combined,

727
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 1: of course, with all the other simulated stuff. They know,

728
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 1: all the other elements are going to these decisions. It's

729
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 1: never just the on track time. So you know, we

730
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:26,400
Speaker 1: already know that red Bull is fairly impressed with that

731
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: sort of steeriness that he has when he's in the car,

732
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 1: so I wouldn't be that surprised if his results look

733
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 1: good and that's enough, particularly if Sergio Peis can't turn

734
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 1: it around. If Paris suddenly pulls out six great last races,

735
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 1: that might change things somewhat. But that's sort of interesting.

736
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 1: But then it does, and maybe there's a question for

737
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 1: later in the year, because we've already talked a little

738
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 1: bit about all this driving sort of stuff. But it does.

739
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 1: I think you sort of raised it there in one

740
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 1: in one sense brings Red Bull back to the way

741
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 1: it used to run these two teams, which I think

742
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: is better than the conservative way it's been running it recently,

743
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 1: which is you bring these young guys in, you give

744
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 1: them a chance. You never know, you know. The strategy

745
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:02,839
Speaker 1: for them has always been like you just throw as

746
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 1: many drivers at the wall, whichever one stick you put

747
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 1: them in, and suddenly you might find your next great driver.

748
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 1: Like that's the way they've done it, as opposed to

749
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 1: the I guess more modern way that likes of Mercedes

750
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:14,720
Speaker 1: and Ferrari. They pick a couple of drivers, they groomed

751
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 1: them to the top. They end up with one that's

752
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 1: your George Russell or your Antonelli or whatever, and they

753
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 1: get their debut like that.

754
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 2: That's been a lot of grooming done with Antonelli. Though

755
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 2: in fairness, it's just.

756
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:23,280
Speaker 1: Like no.

757
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 2: Swim.

758
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 1: Yes, his hair was already perfect when they arrived him.

759
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 1: No groomy with five but you know, you raise Albonn,

760
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 1: you raise Ghastly, even Kiviat to some extent, A though

761
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 1: that was a bit of a weird situation. It was

762
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,320
Speaker 1: like almost the opposite. These are drivers that were badly burnt,

763
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: quality drivers that were badly burnt by being rushed into

764
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 1: Red Bull Racing, specifically alongside Max with Stafford, Liam Lawson

765
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:50,959
Speaker 1: will have had only by the end of the year

766
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: eleven Grand Prix for av over two seasons in two separate,

767
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 1: significantly separate stints, you know. And I say this specifically,

768
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,439
Speaker 1: and I've mentioned Gasling now one specifically because it should

769
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 1: take nothing away from I think Lawson's potential and ability

770
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 1: to say that that's a risk, because not only up

771
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 1: agains Max with staff and he also, as has been

772
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 1: made really clear this year, in a car that's can

773
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 1: be a bit dodgy, sometimes can be a bit tough,

774
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 1: even on Max, You've got to be confident. And I'm

775
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 1: I'm just really interested to see how this plays out.

776
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 1: I mean, I'd love to see laws and get his

777
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 1: chance fired at the front. I'd love to see him

778
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 1: succeed because it would be such a tremendous story. But

779
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 1: that does raise the questions that were never really answered, ironically,

780
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:39,240
Speaker 1: questions that began being posed after Riccardo ever since Ricardo

781
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 1: left Red Bull Racing about how they deal with that

782
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: second seat it's great to give more drivers a chance.

783
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:47,840
Speaker 1: Have they fixed the problems that prevent them from shining?

784
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,359
Speaker 2: But that's exactly the point of this, you know, it's

785
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,360
Speaker 2: it's clearing the log jam right now. You've got to

786
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 2: get lim in there so you can get Eyazac in

787
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 2: there so you can get the next lot in below

788
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 2: them or behind them. You know, we don't know at

789
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 2: this point is Liam the next Max? Is Liam a

790
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,279
Speaker 2: suitable replacement? I don't know, but unless you try, you're

791
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,799
Speaker 2: never going to find out. Similarly, if you don't give

792
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 2: Isaac a chance Isaac Hadja, you're never going to know

793
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 2: similarly with the guy behind him. So you have to

794
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,919
Speaker 2: get this ball rolling. You know, yes, Red Bull has

795
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 2: burnt all those drivers, and you go back, you know,

796
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 2: down the line and from Christian Clean onwards. There is

797
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 2: there is a long, long list of drivers who've raced

798
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 2: the Red Bull and for whatever reason haven't made it

799
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:36,840
Speaker 2: where perhaps the circumstances were different. Would even drivers that

800
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 2: didn't get to Formula one that perhaps might have been

801
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 2: a different environment or a different program or at a

802
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 2: different time. So I totally get why they're doing it.

803
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 2: They have to take this risk. It's calculated, but the

804
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 2: odds are in their favor that if they keep churning

805
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 2: through drivers, you know they've they found a Sebastian Vettel,

806
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:02,239
Speaker 2: they found Daniel Ricardo, they found makes us. They found

807
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 2: two generational, arguably talents, a one guy who in different

808
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 2: scenario probably could have been a world champion himself. I

809
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:14,360
Speaker 2: think the great travesty of Daniel Riccardo is that his

810
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,839
Speaker 2: best years were in an era that was dominated by

811
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 2: Mercedes and then happened to overlap with the rise of

812
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:23,879
Speaker 2: a generational talent, a guy that will go down as

813
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 2: one of the greats and Formula one. Change one, if

814
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 2: not two of those variables and you have a very

815
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 2: very different career. But it goes to show that red Bull,

816
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 2: for all its speculation, it does get it right. So

817
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:38,799
Speaker 2: let's hope that Liam is one of those that it

818
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 2: gets right more than it gets wrong, because it is

819
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:44,840
Speaker 2: a hell of a story. He doesn't have family money,

820
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 2: He's had support from Red Bull since comparatively early on.

821
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 2: He took a massive gamble to go over to Europe

822
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 2: and race German Formula four. He had backing from New

823
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 2: Zealand to get him there. You know, this is a

824
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 2: kid who's put in a hell of a lot to

825
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,479
Speaker 2: get where he is, sacrificed a hell of a lot,

826
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:07,240
Speaker 2: has had to play an impatient waiting game. He deserves

827
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,800
Speaker 2: to be there again, forget the scenario. You know it

828
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:13,479
Speaker 2: took Daniel being sacked for him to get there. That's

829
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 2: not Liams's fault or problem. This kid's done it hard

830
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 2: to get there. He's not bought his way in like

831
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 2: others have, because there are still plenty of pay drivers

832
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:28,319
Speaker 2: in Formula one, even very very talented ones. But you know,

833
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:32,959
Speaker 2: Lim's done it on pure grit, determination, bloody mindedness and talent.

834
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 2: And let's hope for all of those reasons that he

835
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 2: succeeds and then we'll adopt him as Australian.

836
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 1: Absolutely right, hopefully sooner rather than later. That's all the

837
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 1: time we have for pit Talk today. On this momentus

838
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 1: somewhat sad, but look, let's celebrate the career of Daniel

839
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 1: Ricardo a day for Australian motorsport. You can subscribe to

840
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 1: pit Talk wherever you get your favorite podcast, and you

841
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 1: can leave us a rating and review as well, and

842
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 1: you can keep up to date with all the later

843
00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:59,919
Speaker 1: steff on News throughout the next couple of weeks, in fact,

844
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:03,240
Speaker 1: at foxsports dot com dot Au and Speedcafe dot Com

845
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:05,719
Speaker 1: from Matt Cosh and me Michael Lomonado, thanks very much

846
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:07,800
Speaker 1: for your company and we'll catch you in a couple

847
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 1: of weeks ahead of the next race in the United States.