WEBVTT - A Brother's Quest for Justice -David Cunningham 0:00:05.881 --> 0:00:07.801 Appoche Production. 0:00:13.041 --> 0:00:15.281 Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I am your 0:00:15.281 --> 0:00:21.361 host Adam Shand. July nineteen seventy two, two young women, 0:00:21.801 --> 0:00:25.681 Anita Cunningham and Robin Hoyneville Bartram, set off from Melbourne 0:00:25.681 --> 0:00:28.961 to hitchhike to Robin's family home in Bowen, North Queensland. 0:00:29.961 --> 0:00:33.840 Two bright young design students leaves to hitchhike up the 0:00:33.881 --> 0:00:39.681 East Coast. They were never seen alive again. In November 0:00:39.721 --> 0:00:42.560 of that year, Robin's body was found under a bridge 0:00:42.601 --> 0:00:47.160 at Sensible Creek near Charters Towers, with two bullet holes 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:49.801 in the back of her head in a way that 0:00:49.961 --> 0:00:51.800 she was killed two bullets in the back of the 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:57.560 head two months loger execution. Anita has never been found. 0:00:57.681 --> 0:01:01.841 It's one of Australia's most baffling unsolved murders. 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:04.961 The worst thing that you could possibly imagine happened to 0:01:05.121 --> 0:01:05.640 this family. 0:01:07.681 --> 0:01:11.160 The Cunningham family continues to seek answers, and I'm joined 0:01:11.161 --> 0:01:14.200 by Nita's brother David, who keeps the flame of the 0:01:14.241 --> 0:01:15.561 investigation alive. 0:01:16.360 --> 0:01:21.441 We were actually deliberately kept in the dark. Such a tragedy. 0:01:21.481 --> 0:01:23.841 What happened to them? You know, you want to do 0:01:23.961 --> 0:01:27.640 something good for as the years and the decades have 0:01:27.721 --> 0:01:31.720 gone by, the hope of that is just dissolved into nothing, 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:33.961 not that there was much hope of that in the 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:34.680 first place. 0:01:37.521 --> 0:01:41.200 Welcome David, Hello Adam, it's great to see you again. 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:42.961 Well, thanks for the opportunity. 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:45.961 You and I have travelsome roads on this story. And 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:47.921 I've got three or four of these long term missing 0:01:47.921 --> 0:01:51.201 persons cases that I vow to solve or at least 0:01:51.241 --> 0:01:53.001 follow through to the end of my career. Yours is 0:01:53.001 --> 0:01:55.641 one of them. It's on a yellow post it note 0:01:55.681 --> 0:01:59.321 on my wall, completion. It needs to be completed. 0:01:59.681 --> 0:02:02.240 Well, let's hope we're getting closer to it every day. 0:02:02.601 --> 0:02:05.841 Yeah, tell me who was Anita. 0:02:06.281 --> 0:02:13.641 Anita was a delightful, strong, very gregarious, happy girl. She 0:02:13.761 --> 0:02:18.081 was full of promise and she was a keen horse rider. 0:02:18.161 --> 0:02:23.521 She rode in the Royal Melbourne Show. She was an 0:02:23.641 --> 0:02:27.840 art student. She had the whole world going for her. 0:02:27.841 --> 0:02:30.961 She was a beautiful girl. You know she was your 0:02:31.001 --> 0:02:33.441 young sister. She was. Yeah, she was a year and 0:02:33.481 --> 0:02:35.721 a half younger than I. 0:02:35.800 --> 0:02:38.001 You're a wild boy back in your day. Ye're off 0:02:38.041 --> 0:02:40.761 doing your things at the time. Remember what you were 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:42.241 doing in July nineteen seventy two. 0:02:43.161 --> 0:02:48.161 July nineteen seventy two. I was young and stupid, following 0:02:48.481 --> 0:02:54.121 the hippie trail and living a life of self discovery 0:02:54.161 --> 0:02:56.520 and partying basically, I think you'd call it. 0:02:58.361 --> 0:03:00.561 And so Anita goes away for what was going to 0:03:00.601 --> 0:03:03.441 be a two or three week trip. What are your 0:03:03.481 --> 0:03:05.521 memories of what was going on? Happened? 0:03:07.001 --> 0:03:11.521 I was away, really I had seen Anita a bit 0:03:12.081 --> 0:03:14.881 before they left, and I'd struck up a little bit 0:03:14.921 --> 0:03:19.000 of a relationship with Robin. But like in those days, 0:03:19.841 --> 0:03:22.721 life was sort of fancy free and there was nothing 0:03:22.841 --> 0:03:26.241 sort of permanent. Were just sort of had a bit 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:29.881 of a fling. And then next thing I heard they 0:03:29.921 --> 0:03:32.641 were heading That was the school holidays and they were 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:36.761 heading up north, and my parents contacted me and said 0:03:36.841 --> 0:03:39.241 that they were really worried and they were trying the 0:03:39.321 --> 0:03:44.681 hardest to convince the girls to accept a free airline ticket, 0:03:45.921 --> 0:03:49.041 but they were determined to take off hitchhiking and sort 0:03:49.081 --> 0:03:52.521 of have a happy, go lucky hippie life kind of thing. 0:03:53.201 --> 0:03:57.081 We were all very naive then, and you know, sort 0:03:57.081 --> 0:04:00.161 of middle class kids from a middle class background and 0:04:00.201 --> 0:04:05.481 middle class school and zero experience of life so she 0:04:05.481 --> 0:04:08.881 she fell in with the wrong crowd. That was the 0:04:08.921 --> 0:04:09.361 end of it. 0:04:09.401 --> 0:04:11.921 Do you have any any evidence or clues to that? 0:04:12.241 --> 0:04:15.561 Yeah, And the evidence and the clues are set out 0:04:15.961 --> 0:04:21.721 in Gern's book which was published recently called Here Our Cry. 0:04:22.601 --> 0:04:26.200 It's published by Ingrin Spark and it's by Michael Gern 0:04:26.601 --> 0:04:30.641 and he sets out all his evidence. He believes it 0:04:30.761 --> 0:04:37.080 was a gang of local hooligans, perhaps assisted by Ivan Mullatt. 0:04:38.281 --> 0:04:40.760 That's a big name in true crime. Ivan Malatt. 0:04:41.641 --> 0:04:41.881 Yep. 0:04:42.361 --> 0:04:45.681 Mick mcgern, I should say, is a retired Queensland Police officer. 0:04:45.921 --> 0:04:48.001 He's now in his nineties. I believe he is. 0:04:48.041 --> 0:04:50.921 He's ninety two. He's an ex senior detective. He used 0:04:50.921 --> 0:04:55.081 to have his own department in the Queensland Police and 0:04:55.601 --> 0:04:58.561 he's got a pretty good reputation in the police. 0:04:59.041 --> 0:05:02.161 Of course he does. And I think he's incredibly selfless 0:05:02.201 --> 0:05:04.281 what he's done. And the love for your family and 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:07.441 the love of finding an answer is still driving him. 0:05:07.481 --> 0:05:09.281 His health has a bit infirmed these days, but he 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:10.041 doesn't give up. 0:05:10.401 --> 0:05:15.640 He's so tenacious and he's powers of investigation and his 0:05:15.761 --> 0:05:21.721 ability to get people to talk and interview people, and 0:05:21.761 --> 0:05:25.801 he is just incredible. He's a born detective really. 0:05:25.481 --> 0:05:31.401 And mixed efforts stand in stark contrast to the general 0:05:31.641 --> 0:05:35.840 performance of the Queensland Police Service over all the years 0:05:36.601 --> 0:05:37.481 of this mystery. 0:05:37.801 --> 0:05:42.601 Yeah. Well, I'm aware that back in those days, just 0:05:42.841 --> 0:05:46.520 far north out back, Queensland was like a foreign country. 0:05:46.521 --> 0:05:50.440 It was just it was nowhere and dirt roads, and 0:05:50.561 --> 0:05:55.241 you know, the superintendent of police there at that time 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:58.080 was well known to be the biggest criminal in the 0:05:58.161 --> 0:06:03.721 district and policing wasn't what really we expect it to be. 0:06:03.841 --> 0:06:07.441 It was a different time, and so I always thought 0:06:07.521 --> 0:06:11.080 put the police performance down to that general sort of 0:06:11.481 --> 0:06:14.361 neglect of the time, because it was like cowboy country 0:06:14.401 --> 0:06:19.481 and so on. But recently I've learned that actually, I 0:06:19.521 --> 0:06:21.441 think there's more to it than that. I think there 0:06:21.481 --> 0:06:25.200 was that deliberate cover up by the police, and more 0:06:25.241 --> 0:06:29.161 evidence to support that is coming out all the time, 0:06:29.241 --> 0:06:33.401 and so that's what we're pursuing at the moment, that 0:06:33.641 --> 0:06:38.320 we were actually deliberately kept in the dark by the 0:06:38.361 --> 0:06:43.041 police and we were steered in the wrong direction. Now, 0:06:43.481 --> 0:06:46.241 whether that was because they've got something to hide and 0:06:46.241 --> 0:06:49.601 they're trying to protect somebody, or whether it was just 0:06:49.641 --> 0:06:51.921 a sort of an accident of fate. I don't know, 0:06:52.041 --> 0:06:56.601 but our investigations coming up, I think we'll shed a 0:06:56.641 --> 0:06:58.080 bit of light on that. We'll see how go. 0:06:58.281 --> 0:06:59.841 I think you've got some new leads. And that's what 0:06:59.921 --> 0:07:02.281 I find amazing about you, Davi, is you've not given up, 0:07:02.281 --> 0:07:04.641 and you think with these cold cases to give when 0:07:04.641 --> 0:07:07.681 they're so you get to the point where you think 0:07:07.681 --> 0:07:10.041 to yourself, there's about two or three people in the 0:07:10.241 --> 0:07:13.201 entire world who were thinking about this case and working 0:07:13.201 --> 0:07:16.121 hard on it, because they just move on and unless you, 0:07:16.201 --> 0:07:20.321 as a family continue to agitate, continue to ask questions, 0:07:20.881 --> 0:07:24.041 it will just disappear. And I've seen this in other 0:07:24.041 --> 0:07:26.761 cases that I cover, where when the last family member 0:07:26.761 --> 0:07:29.921 passes away, there's virtually no chance of resolution. So you've 0:07:29.921 --> 0:07:31.401 got a real urgency about what you're doing. 0:07:31.641 --> 0:07:36.401 Well. The reason is because, for you know, forty five 0:07:36.521 --> 0:07:40.201 years we were told only two things are known, and 0:07:40.241 --> 0:07:43.401 that is the date, time and place the girl's left 0:07:44.321 --> 0:07:47.361 and the date, time and place Robin's body was found. 0:07:48.521 --> 0:07:53.161 Nothing else is known. Nobody saw anything, nobody knew anything. 0:07:53.841 --> 0:07:56.961 There is no hope of anything being known, So you 0:07:57.041 --> 0:07:58.801 might as well give up and go home. That was 0:07:58.881 --> 0:08:03.841 what we were told basically, But it's only since Mick 0:08:03.921 --> 0:08:06.481 gern has just pulled the whole thing together and just 0:08:07.041 --> 0:08:13.201 found witnesses, and it's only since then that we have 0:08:13.441 --> 0:08:18.881 a chance to maybe find Anita's remains and give her 0:08:19.441 --> 0:08:21.601 a decent burial that she deserves. 0:08:22.361 --> 0:08:24.721 How important is that to you? I mean it's self evident, 0:08:25.401 --> 0:08:27.721 but I think if you've never been in this position 0:08:28.161 --> 0:08:31.001 where you've lost a loved one and you've not got 0:08:31.001 --> 0:08:33.601 the remains to bury, what does that represent to you 0:08:33.681 --> 0:08:34.361 and your family? 0:08:35.641 --> 0:08:42.121 Well, you can imagine what it represents, but especially when 0:08:42.161 --> 0:08:46.441 they've been treated so badly, you know, when it's such 0:08:46.481 --> 0:08:49.521 a such a tragedy, what happened to them, You know 0:08:50.001 --> 0:08:51.521 you want to do something good. 0:08:51.321 --> 0:08:57.321 For because I think missing person's detectives have always told 0:08:57.401 --> 0:09:02.441 me that without a body to bury, there's always that 0:09:03.241 --> 0:09:05.921 glimmer of hope that one day they're going to walk 0:09:05.961 --> 0:09:08.601 down the driveway and say, well, I've been off somewhere 0:09:08.641 --> 0:09:12.961 else for forty plus years. But as terrible as it 0:09:13.001 --> 0:09:16.961 is to discover, and I'm sure for Robin Hoynevil Bartram's 0:09:17.041 --> 0:09:21.481 family that was a difficult discovery, finding those remains is 0:09:21.561 --> 0:09:23.001 some form of closure for you. 0:09:24.401 --> 0:09:28.641 Yeah. Well, you know, in early days we perhaps had 0:09:28.641 --> 0:09:32.441 that hope that Anita might turn up, but she was 0:09:32.481 --> 0:09:35.761 not the sort of girl who would just disappear. You know, 0:09:36.521 --> 0:09:40.601 we were a strong family. She just wouldn't do that. 0:09:41.001 --> 0:09:43.521 But you know, as the years and the decades have 0:09:43.561 --> 0:09:48.001 gone by, the hope of that is just dissolved into nothing. 0:09:48.161 --> 0:09:50.241 Not that there was much hope of that in the 0:09:50.281 --> 0:09:54.201 first place. I think we pretty well knew that something 0:09:54.441 --> 0:09:59.401 bad must have happened to them, you know, fairly soon 0:09:59.521 --> 0:10:03.961 after they left because other you know, no money was spent, 0:10:04.121 --> 0:10:06.201 they didn't have much hash with them, and their bank 0:10:06.241 --> 0:10:11.681 accounts weren't touched and they never made any phone calls. 0:10:11.921 --> 0:10:19.641 So you know, whatever happened took place fairly soon after 0:10:19.681 --> 0:10:21.081 they went missing. I think. 0:10:21.401 --> 0:10:23.601 So you think it might have as mixed theory is 0:10:23.641 --> 0:10:25.601 that they fell in with a group of crooks or 0:10:25.601 --> 0:10:30.041 hooligans as you put it, This might have happened days 0:10:30.081 --> 0:10:32.241 after they left Melbourne, do you think, Well. 0:10:32.361 --> 0:10:38.961 Either that or they were somehow not kidnapped but certainly 0:10:39.561 --> 0:10:45.881 misled and led astray pretty strongly. And then I don't 0:10:45.921 --> 0:10:49.681 know a matter of days, matter of weeks, but it 0:10:49.721 --> 0:10:53.761 couldn't have been more than more than months, because I'm 0:10:53.801 --> 0:10:59.281 sure she would have I don't know anyway. Look, it's 0:10:59.281 --> 0:11:03.001 all just supposition, really, who knows that's right. 0:11:03.001 --> 0:11:07.041 But what's not supposition is that at least Robin made 0:11:07.081 --> 0:11:10.481 it to Sensible Creek near Pentland there, just near Chater's 0:11:10.481 --> 0:11:14.281 Towers where her remains were found. And when you and 0:11:14.321 --> 0:11:18.281 I walked those streets talked to people up there, more 0:11:18.281 --> 0:11:23.041 information came out and you start to see the shithouse 0:11:23.121 --> 0:11:26.481 investigation that was conducted by Queensland Police. I've got mates 0:11:26.561 --> 0:11:28.921 up in Queensland Police, so I'm not characterizing all of 0:11:28.961 --> 0:11:32.121 them this way, but the way that they failed to 0:11:32.321 --> 0:11:35.721 follow up local leads. Let's look at some of those things. 0:11:36.241 --> 0:11:36.641 We know. 0:11:37.961 --> 0:11:42.641 A lady called Merle White saw the girls at the 0:11:42.681 --> 0:11:46.481 Pentland Hotel when there was a music night on there, 0:11:47.641 --> 0:11:52.081 and she was absolutely adamant that she'd seen them, and 0:11:52.121 --> 0:11:56.721 that they had taken a ride with a guy in 0:11:56.761 --> 0:11:59.961 a cowboy hat who may have even called himself cowboy, 0:12:00.761 --> 0:12:06.281 who bore a striking resemblance to Ivan Mulatt. Police never 0:12:06.281 --> 0:12:10.081 told you that, did they No? And then later that 0:12:10.241 --> 0:12:14.161 night Merle and her mother are driving back to Charter's 0:12:14.241 --> 0:12:18.601 Towers and they're getting near the area Sensible Creek and 0:12:18.681 --> 0:12:20.961 they see in the headlights in the distance a car 0:12:21.001 --> 0:12:23.601 parked on the side of the road, a group of men, 0:12:24.001 --> 0:12:28.521 one man jumping up and down on something. And Merle's 0:12:28.561 --> 0:12:32.801 mother said, this is not right, keep going, Merle, let's go. 0:12:34.041 --> 0:12:38.401 The following day, they're back in Charter's Towers. Merle sees 0:12:38.441 --> 0:12:42.321 the same man that she saw in the Pentland Hotel. 0:12:43.641 --> 0:12:48.201 Now he's got a big scratch down his face. How 0:12:48.241 --> 0:12:52.041 does this happen? And she was menaced or threatened by 0:12:52.081 --> 0:12:56.481 that individual, who she believed to be Ivan Malatt. Did 0:12:56.521 --> 0:13:00.401 the police tell you any of this? No, the police 0:13:01.841 --> 0:13:04.241 spoke to Merle White, she tried to give her evidence. 0:13:05.481 --> 0:13:06.321 What happened to it? 0:13:06.921 --> 0:13:10.961 Well, the particular policeman who I won't name, who was 0:13:11.841 --> 0:13:16.561 tasked with getting Merle's story and taking her out to 0:13:16.641 --> 0:13:22.281 the scene of the crime, made Merle very very suspicious 0:13:22.401 --> 0:13:27.801 and very uneasy. He was very creepy and was sort 0:13:27.841 --> 0:13:30.241 of trying to it seemed like he was trying to 0:13:30.241 --> 0:13:32.441 put the hard word on her. And then as she 0:13:32.521 --> 0:13:35.241 got close to her Sensible Creek, she started to think 0:13:35.281 --> 0:13:39.441 that this is according to Merle's daughter, she started to 0:13:39.481 --> 0:13:44.521 think that she better not say too much because he 0:13:44.641 --> 0:13:48.281 might try to implicate her in the crime and make 0:13:48.321 --> 0:13:51.201 her seem like she's one of the guilty party. Because 0:13:51.401 --> 0:13:55.801 he was acting so suspicious himself, she didn't trust him 0:13:55.801 --> 0:13:58.361 at all, so she threw him off the scent and 0:13:58.521 --> 0:14:01.961 just refused to cooperate and nominated at a different place 0:14:02.761 --> 0:14:06.121 just to get out of the situation. Really, And then 0:14:06.361 --> 0:14:11.321 after that police refused to take her seriously or refuse 0:14:11.441 --> 0:14:14.361 to have anything to do with her, and refuse to 0:14:14.401 --> 0:14:20.321 take her dying declaration and threatened her daughter to leave 0:14:20.361 --> 0:14:23.321 the whole thing alone, and you know, not have anything 0:14:23.361 --> 0:14:24.281 to do with it anymore. 0:14:24.521 --> 0:14:27.121 Yeah, we make no allegations. Usually in my career, when 0:14:27.121 --> 0:14:30.041 I got the choice between a conspiracy and a fuck up, 0:14:30.041 --> 0:14:32.681 I always go for the fuck upright, But there may 0:14:32.681 --> 0:14:36.481 indeed be a conspiracy in this case. And the idea 0:14:36.521 --> 0:14:40.641 that Merle's testimony was not reliable or somehow motivated by 0:14:40.721 --> 0:14:44.001 malice or something. You have to look at that in 0:14:44.041 --> 0:14:48.481 relation to what she told her husband John on her deathbed, 0:14:48.641 --> 0:14:52.361 that she told him he has to pursue this story. 0:14:52.361 --> 0:14:56.401 And we interviewed John and his story was crystal clear 0:14:56.921 --> 0:15:00.241 the way that I've related it to you, and he 0:15:00.401 --> 0:15:03.921 was thumping the table and in tears trying to get 0:15:03.961 --> 0:15:06.841 people to understand what Merle said was correct and should 0:15:06.921 --> 0:15:07.681 be followed up. 0:15:08.401 --> 0:15:11.841 Well, I'm like you, I have no grudge against police 0:15:12.041 --> 0:15:15.241 in general. In fact, you know, we've had really good 0:15:15.441 --> 0:15:20.161 policeman members of the family. You know, I've got the 0:15:20.201 --> 0:15:23.401 greatest admiration for some of the individuals and for the 0:15:23.441 --> 0:15:27.361 difficult job. But you know, it's a job that does 0:15:27.401 --> 0:15:31.801 attract the sort of people who you wouldn't really want 0:15:31.841 --> 0:15:36.281 in that job. And maybe some of those people were involved, 0:15:36.321 --> 0:15:39.961 I don't know, but certainly the performance of the police 0:15:40.001 --> 0:15:42.481 in this case has been shabby. 0:15:43.761 --> 0:15:45.921 When we are on the ground in Pentland talking to 0:15:45.961 --> 0:15:48.641 locals who had been there for a long time, the 0:15:48.881 --> 0:15:52.161 first thing they said was look at corrupt police. They 0:15:52.201 --> 0:15:55.681 mentioned a guy called MERV Stevenson who was the former 0:15:55.721 --> 0:15:56.801 head of the Stocks and I'm going to do a 0:15:56.801 --> 0:15:59.161 whole other episode on him because there's a lot of 0:15:59.281 --> 0:16:03.361 murky doings around his career and his possible involvement in 0:16:03.481 --> 0:16:07.721 murders or cover up the murders. And you also get 0:16:07.721 --> 0:16:11.161 back to this attitude that was taken to hitchhikers generally 0:16:11.921 --> 0:16:16.441 that silly girls. They shouldn't have been hitchhiking. They almost 0:16:16.481 --> 0:16:17.721 deserved what they got. 0:16:18.001 --> 0:16:21.001 Yeah, Well, one of the local residents said, oh, hitchhiker 0:16:21.081 --> 0:16:22.961 is a fair game, aren't they. 0:16:24.121 --> 0:16:26.161 And they also told us that there was a number 0:16:26.201 --> 0:16:28.921 of people in that area passing through working at the 0:16:28.961 --> 0:16:32.361 meat works on the way to mining jobs and so forth, 0:16:32.801 --> 0:16:37.561 and under assumed names. And these two young attractive girls, 0:16:37.641 --> 0:16:42.321 quite naive, quite suggestible, up for fun adventures, might have 0:16:42.401 --> 0:16:46.001 been gold into a full sense of security. And I 0:16:46.041 --> 0:16:49.441 can see that scenario happening, and it's such a tragedy. 0:16:49.761 --> 0:16:52.801 And when we went to Sensible Creek and we looked 0:16:52.801 --> 0:16:56.321 at the location where Robin's remains were found, my sense 0:16:56.521 --> 0:16:59.281 was that there hadn't been a big enough search upstream. 0:16:59.521 --> 0:17:03.041 And there's an assumption that Robin must have been killed 0:17:03.481 --> 0:17:06.600 under that bridge, and I don't think that there's sufficient 0:17:07.441 --> 0:17:10.281 evidence to confirm that. When I looked at the rainfall 0:17:10.321 --> 0:17:12.640 records at that time in seventy t there were big floods, 0:17:13.201 --> 0:17:15.761 it was quite possible that they might have been killed 0:17:16.201 --> 0:17:19.160 further away from the road, which would make sense. And 0:17:19.241 --> 0:17:24.681 therefore another search out on that floodplain might reveal something new. 0:17:25.001 --> 0:17:30.120 Yep. And there's a lot of confusion about exactly where 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:34.761 Robin's body was found too, because in the newspaper of 0:17:34.801 --> 0:17:38.561 the date when they were found, the text of the 0:17:38.681 --> 0:17:41.920 article says that they were found near or under the 0:17:42.041 --> 0:17:45.001 railway bridge, but the photo of the police digging is 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:48.521 under the road bridge. When we talked to one of 0:17:48.561 --> 0:17:53.240 the crew who found the body, well, he seemed to 0:17:53.241 --> 0:17:56.041 indicate that it was somewhere in between the railway bridge 0:17:56.041 --> 0:17:58.281 and the road bridge. But I've got to get back 0:17:58.321 --> 0:18:02.001 up there and get a more accurate idea from him. 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:04.761 Yeah, you're talking about Shorty who he found at home, 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:06.961 knocked on his door. He was in the middle of 0:18:06.961 --> 0:18:09.561 a couple of libations in the afternoon when we spoke 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:13.481 to him, and he had been there that day wet weather, 0:18:13.801 --> 0:18:16.921 it was thirsty weather indeed, So her body was found there, 0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:21.400 badly decomposed, virtually a skeleton. And that was in November 0:18:21.481 --> 0:18:25.600 of nineteen seventy two. Another suspect was in the area 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:29.720 very soon before that, John Andrew Stuart. We know he 0:18:29.761 --> 0:18:32.840 was in Pentland because he actually robbed a local man 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:36.200 called Randall Wilson of some items and a suitcase and 0:18:36.241 --> 0:18:40.080 a transistor and so forth that he also pitched into 0:18:40.281 --> 0:18:45.080 Sensible Creek. So I think John Andrew Stewart is a 0:18:45.120 --> 0:18:49.561 reasonable suspect to considering what a callous, nasty individual he was. 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:53.321 He went on to murder multiple people in the fire 0:18:53.360 --> 0:18:55.721 bombing of the Whiskey A Go Go in nineteen seventy three. 0:18:56.600 --> 0:19:00.321 But the problem is, if we believe the rate of decomposition, 0:19:00.961 --> 0:19:03.281 which the police suggested Robin had been killed up to 0:19:03.360 --> 0:19:06.481 three months earlier, that doesn't work for Stuart. 0:19:07.961 --> 0:19:11.001 Yeah, you're not the only one who suspects Stuart, But 0:19:11.321 --> 0:19:14.561 to me, there's a couple of things working against it. 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:17.840 One is the rate of decomposition. And I know the 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:23.961 decomposition is much faster up there in the hot, humid conditions, 0:19:25.001 --> 0:19:27.880 but not that much faster, you know. I mean the 0:19:27.921 --> 0:19:31.441 body was found in November. He was up there in November. 0:19:31.561 --> 0:19:33.360 You know, I couldn't have got like that in just 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:36.600 two weeks, even if the pigs had been worrying the body, 0:19:36.681 --> 0:19:39.241 and you know, the wild pigs and all that. It 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:42.600 just to me that it doesn't add up on that count. 0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:47.000 And the other thing is I just put myself in 0:19:47.120 --> 0:19:51.001 John Andrews Stewart's shoes, and think if I had buried 0:19:51.041 --> 0:19:54.721 a body under a bridge and tried to conceal it, 0:19:55.120 --> 0:19:59.241 I wouldn't be throwing somebody's stolen goods on top of it, 0:19:59.281 --> 0:20:02.681 which could lead straight back to me, because I would 0:20:02.721 --> 0:20:06.041 be trying to dissociate myself from from the whole thing. 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:06.280 You know. 0:20:06.761 --> 0:20:09.561 Well, here's the thing though, when we were there, the 0:20:09.600 --> 0:20:12.801 creek was virtually dry, and then a huge thunderstorm came 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:15.720 through and suddenly it was running a banker while we 0:20:15.721 --> 0:20:19.201 were there, And I can see a situation where Anita 0:20:19.281 --> 0:20:22.641 and Robin could have been murdered upstream and then floodwaters 0:20:22.681 --> 0:20:25.521 carry them down. True, And then it kind of makes 0:20:25.561 --> 0:20:29.281 sense because I don't believe this idea that wild pigs 0:20:29.321 --> 0:20:33.880 could have attacked Robin's body and not left it completely scattered, 0:20:34.120 --> 0:20:38.240 because the skeleton was not disarticulated. She was whole, and 0:20:38.281 --> 0:20:40.400 there was clothes with her still and so forth. 0:20:40.481 --> 0:20:45.801 So we have to consider the decomposition rate, and I 0:20:45.961 --> 0:20:49.960 just can't conceivably see how it can get into that 0:20:50.080 --> 0:20:53.241 state in two weeks. You know, If John Andrew Stuart 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:56.521 was there early in November, the body was found I 0:20:56.521 --> 0:21:00.281 think on the fifteenth of November, so that leaves no 0:21:00.441 --> 0:21:02.360 time for decomposition to happen, you know. 0:21:02.880 --> 0:21:05.680 Yeah, my personal view is that that wasn't the murder site, 0:21:05.681 --> 0:21:08.721 that it was further upstream. And unfortunately we don't have 0:21:08.921 --> 0:21:12.001 Robin's remains to refer to either, because in a flood 0:21:12.041 --> 0:21:15.360 in nineteen seventy four, the forensic headquarters in Brisbane was 0:21:15.360 --> 0:21:18.480 flooded and her remains were carried away for a second 0:21:18.481 --> 0:21:23.041 time in a cruel irony, which also hampers any reinvestigation 0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:23.761 of her remains. 0:21:23.801 --> 0:21:29.041 Now, yes, it is sad, but there are still witnesses 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:35.280 alive so pursuing that avenue, and there may be some 0:21:35.321 --> 0:21:39.481 other avenues which may yet still prove fruitful, so we 0:21:39.640 --> 0:21:41.041 still plug away at it. 0:21:41.201 --> 0:21:43.281 Which I really admire you for. And you've dealt with 0:21:43.321 --> 0:21:50.840 some absolutely bizarre, insulting, awful scenarios. For instance, when a 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:54.681 psychic came up with the idea that your ex partner, 0:21:55.281 --> 0:21:58.960 the mother of your daughter, was Anita somehow, that she 0:21:59.080 --> 0:22:02.920 had decided to take on this new identity and not 0:22:03.640 --> 0:22:06.720 alert the family and then become your partner. I mean, 0:22:06.761 --> 0:22:08.241 you're involved in the conspiracy. 0:22:08.561 --> 0:22:12.241 Yeah, she's supposed to have come down from Queensland, had 0:22:12.360 --> 0:22:16.880 an incestuous relationship with me which produced a daughter, and 0:22:16.921 --> 0:22:20.600 then she's gone back up to Queensland and she's living 0:22:20.640 --> 0:22:26.921 there under a false identity. Yeah, the whole thing seems bizarre, 0:22:26.961 --> 0:22:29.440 but it would have taken the police five minutes on 0:22:29.481 --> 0:22:32.641 the computer to look on the Internet, and they would 0:22:32.681 --> 0:22:37.080 have seen that Anita and Jody were two totally different 0:22:37.481 --> 0:22:41.561 looking people, and they could see Jody's family background on 0:22:41.600 --> 0:22:46.961 the computer too. I mean, it's like there's been other, 0:22:48.400 --> 0:22:54.480 much more solid seeming leads which they've discounted out of 0:22:54.521 --> 0:22:57.321 hand and haven't even bothered to follow up, and yet 0:22:57.521 --> 0:23:01.880 this sort of crazy psychic pops up and produces a 0:23:01.921 --> 0:23:05.801 totally unbelievable story which they don't bother it's and they 0:23:05.840 --> 0:23:09.000 do this Dawn raid. You know, it's just laughable. 0:23:09.201 --> 0:23:11.921 It is laughable. It is laughable. And I've been doing 0:23:11.961 --> 0:23:15.160 a running survey of detectives over my career to ask them, 0:23:15.201 --> 0:23:18.761 has a psychic ever actually assisted you to resolve a crime? 0:23:18.761 --> 0:23:22.041 But I'm still zero after all these years. Despite the 0:23:22.041 --> 0:23:25.441 fact that some of these psychics do purport to be successful, 0:23:25.441 --> 0:23:27.241 I'd love to hear from a psychic. If you do 0:23:27.321 --> 0:23:30.561 have evidence that you can solve crimes, you can also 0:23:30.561 --> 0:23:33.360 find my car keys that I lost last week. So 0:23:33.961 --> 0:23:37.840 your parents went to their graves not finding out, that's right. 0:23:38.080 --> 0:23:40.921 How do you deal with the idea that you may 0:23:40.961 --> 0:23:42.001 never find out either? 0:23:42.561 --> 0:23:46.521 Oh, well, it's nothing new. I mean I've been resigned 0:23:46.561 --> 0:23:48.840 to the fact that I would never find anything out 0:23:48.961 --> 0:23:54.241 for forty odd years until Mick Gern actually did some 0:23:55.600 --> 0:24:01.521 first class detective work and found witnesses, evidence and so forth. 0:24:02.120 --> 0:24:06.521 And the book it's called Here Our Crime. It gives 0:24:07.080 --> 0:24:10.161 all the steps, all the evidence, So if anybody wants 0:24:10.160 --> 0:24:13.041 to follow it up, that's what I recommend. We're actually 0:24:13.080 --> 0:24:16.360 trying to call for a Commission of Inquiry to try 0:24:16.400 --> 0:24:20.960 and get witnesses onto the witness stand to testify under oath, 0:24:21.441 --> 0:24:24.360 because it's the only way we really get people to 0:24:24.400 --> 0:24:29.760 open up. You know, people who I know had firsthand 0:24:29.801 --> 0:24:34.160 knowledge of the girl's disappearance said to me, oh, I 0:24:34.160 --> 0:24:38.361 don't remember anything from that time. Sorry, I just can't remember. 0:24:38.761 --> 0:24:42.801 Whereas everybody else in the town, everybody else we talked to, 0:24:43.441 --> 0:24:46.041 had really strong memories of. 0:24:45.961 --> 0:24:49.480 It, that's right, And we found new evidence just walking 0:24:49.521 --> 0:24:53.961