WEBVTT - #1923 Self-Awareness, Anxiety & Behaviour Change – Dr. Lillian Nejad 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:02.280 I'll get out of you, bloody champs. Welcome to another 0:00:02.320 --> 0:00:05.640 installment the You Project. One of my favorite humans is back. 0:00:05.680 --> 0:00:11.440 The very clever, the very beautifully voiced, the very dulcet 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:13.880 toned doctor Lillian is back. 0:00:14.640 --> 0:00:15.560 Heank you, Craig. 0:00:17.440 --> 0:00:19.439 Yeah, I do what I can. I do what I can. 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:21.680 You know, I have to thank your listeners because last 0:00:21.680 --> 0:00:23.880 time I was on the show, which was a few 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:29.400 months ago, now it feels like forever ago. I asked 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:32.000 if anyone wanted to volunteer to listen to some of 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:37.960 my new relaxation mindfulness exercises, and several of your listeners, 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:41.800 probably maybe six, said that they would love a couple 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:43.960 and I gave them a couple according to like what 0:00:44.040 --> 0:00:47.040 they were interested in listening to. And yeah, it was 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:49.640 really good. It was really good to have people listen 0:00:49.720 --> 0:00:52.640 to them for the first time and give me feedback 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:57.120 and so, you know, and you know, the voice thing, 0:00:57.240 --> 0:01:00.120 it's nice to hear feedback about the fact that your 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:03.320 voice is relaxing. So that's nice. 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:07.000 You know, when you do your own you know, like 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:09.240 whatever you create a program, you write a book, or 0:01:09.280 --> 0:01:11.840 you do a presentation or any of the things that 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:15.120 you and I do a little bit of it's hard 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:17.720 to like you have an idea of what it's like 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:20.240 or what it you know, how the presentation went, or 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:23.600 you know, you write something and you think, I think 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:24.960 this is not bad, and then you give it to 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:28.360 somebody else and they're like, that's that's inspirational or I 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:29.080 don't get it. 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:31.679 Or yeah, but that that's that. 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:36.080 Like I just finished one of my one of my papers, 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:39.200 and I had to then, well, I finished the first draft. 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:41.600 But this is an eighteen month paper, right, this is a. 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:48.360 Mega, mega systematic literature review, which you understand what started 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:51.160 with eleven hundred and fifty odd papers ended up with 0:01:51.200 --> 0:01:53.920 about one hundred and twenty that I reviewed, one hundred 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:56.240 and twenty different lots of research to create this table, 0:01:56.280 --> 0:01:58.960 to create this paper out of that, right, Yeah, then 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:01.720 you just got to go and email to all of 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:05.880 these people like my team, yea, my supervisor, to go, well, 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:09.360 here's the final or not, here's the first completed like 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:13.760 totally completed draft of my paper, and then you press 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:18.680 you know, refresh on your three months seventy two times 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:24.040 a day or more. More critically, I sent off you know, 0:02:24.080 --> 0:02:26.560 one of my first papers or my first paper for 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:31.720 publication and what I guess a lot of people don't 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:34.200 know this or need to know this. But so when 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:37.760 you do a you know, like me, a doctorate in 0:02:38.680 --> 0:02:42.639 psychology or neuropsychology, it's all research based. And I'm doing 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:47.280 mine by publication, which means I have to write papers 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:51.200 and then send them off to journals, scientific journals and 0:02:51.400 --> 0:02:55.680 they will assess it and I'll go, we might publish it, 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:58.600 but you need to address these issues or no, we're 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:01.280 not publishing it, or yeah, we are publishing it. And 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:06.120 what you don't know when you're me, which is not 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:10.440 a real academic or definitely wasn't an academic slightly becoming one, 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:13.840 is so you can send it off and they don't 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:21.880 even respond for six months before they go no, I know, Well, 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:23.920 could you've told me that a week in You would 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:25.000 have saved me six months. 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:29.119 And yeah, it's so frustrating the whole process really, I mean, 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:33.239 whether it's by paper, whether it's to do the whole thing. 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:37.080 And like when I was doing my PhD, you didn't 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:40.920 have the option of doing it via publication in journals, 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:43.360 which would have been great actually, but we didn't have that. 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:46.680 I've still got a hand in a thesis. Don't worry, No, I. 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:48.280 Know you still have to do that, but like we 0:03:48.320 --> 0:03:51.440 didn't get that opportunity to have people review it in 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:55.440 that way and even and have the chance to publish 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:59.160 articles before. What we did is like do the whole 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:02.240 thing whatever, you three hundred and fifty page you know, 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:06.600 book basically, and then you're expected afterwards to publish from that, 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:10.200 and you're like, no, I've just I've just written this 0:04:10.280 --> 0:04:12.440 thing and I'm so over it. Like the last thing 0:04:12.480 --> 0:04:16.320 I want to do is now edit it in five 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:19.240 different ways to create you know, articles that I can 0:04:19.279 --> 0:04:22.120 actually publish for the rest of everyone else to see. 0:04:22.120 --> 0:04:24.919 But you know, of course you should because you've just 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:27.040 done all this research and you want people to see 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:30.200 it and know about it. So yeah, it wasn't the best, 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:33.320 but yeah, the waiting game. And when whenever you create anything, 0:04:34.720 --> 0:04:40.440 whether it's like an academic report or project, or whether 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:43.920 it's just you know, a relaxation exercise or a program 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:46.359 or whatever, it is hard to put it out there, 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:49.600 you know, like it is your work. You are you 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:53.360 are actually being judged for it. 0:04:53.839 --> 0:04:56.159 And that's that's part of the vulnerability of even doing 0:04:56.160 --> 0:04:59.039 a podcast, where yeah, I mean, every every single person 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:03.720 who listens to viewing me today, completely understandably because we're 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:07.720 all human, has an opinion about you know, is this good? 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:10.719 Is this crap? Should I listen? Should I lean in? 0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:13.520 Should I turn it off? Should I? Is this valuable? 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:16.200 Do they know what they're talking about? Does he? Does she? 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:20.839 You know, it's like we're constantly judging, not necessarily in 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:23.360 a judgmental way, but just as in we're trying to 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:25.440 figure out what that is that we're listening to and 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:28.840 whether or not it's worth investing forty five minutes or 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:29.680 fifty minutes of. 0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:30.640 My life into this thing. 0:05:31.000 --> 0:05:31.679 Yeah, totally. 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:35.360 I did a very brave thing with my last book, 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:37.719 which was called Listen to Me bragging very brave. 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:38.520 I was so brave. 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:42.000 I wrote a book called Twenty Questions for Humans, which 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:45.279 was really just not answering but really exploring twenty really 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:48.960 common questions that I get asked and a lot of 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:51.760 people get asked, right just about the human experience where 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:55.880 we just, you know, we just leaned in everything from 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:59.039 what's it like being around me? That Craig Harper Chestnut 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:01.719 through too, you know, what's the meaning of life? 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:04.080 Right? How do I find my purpose. 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:09.040 All that just like interesting stuff to have a conversation about. 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:14.600 And so I finished it and I reached out to 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:18.960 my I think it was Facebook community, and I said, 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:22.680 I need twenty five people to come to my Then 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:26.280 I had a commercial office at this time, so it 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:28.160 was only a few years ago I got rid of 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:31.719 the office in COVID, but I had had a forty 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:34.480 seat lecture theater, so a little lecture theater. 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:36.039 And some offices and a whole bunch of space. 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:40.160 And so I said, I want twenty five people to 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:44.120 come to my office next Saturday to read. 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:46.240 My book, the book that's not yet published. 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:50.479 It's I wrote it formulaically, right, and by that I 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:57.880 mean the average person reads I think it's two hundred 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:00.560 and fifty words a minute. 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:01.800 Something like that. 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:06.840 Anyway, I figured out that i'd written I'd written a 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:09.080 book that could be read by the average person in 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:13.240 about sixty to ninety minutes. So really sure, like fifteen 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:17.080 thousand words. Yeah, And I thought, well, it's easy to read. 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:19.880 It's not like people have got to spend eight hours, 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:23.600 Like even if they really amble through it, it's going 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:27.720 to take them two hours. So everybody came in. I 0:07:27.760 --> 0:07:30.840 got twenty five people in like an hour. They all 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:34.040 showed up in person, which was very nice of them. 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:39.560 I gave them all a draft, you know, basically one 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:43.040 hundred pages or whatever it was, in a big alligator clip, 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:47.560 just you know, so like literally photo copied book hadn't 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:50.000 yet been sent for printing. 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:50.720 And publication, et cetera. 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:54.920 I gave them all two red pens and said, I 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:57.320 don't even want to tell you what you're looking for. 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:00.520 I just want you to read it. If you find 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:04.360 any mistakes, obviously you know, any grammar or any typos 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:06.920 or that'd be handy, but I just. 0:08:06.880 --> 0:08:08.520 Want you to read it. 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:11.960 And you could write a whole lot, not much, nothing, 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:16.160 you could write on every page, no pages, but knock 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:19.360 yourself out. And so imagine how long that took me 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:24.760 to get through twenty five manuscripts. It took me about 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:27.640 two weeks. But it was really a worthwhile effort because 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:32.720 you get a real insight into twenty five other human 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:38.720 beings who are interpreting something that you share with a 0:08:38.720 --> 0:08:41.640 certain intention and a certain kind of story in your 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:44.360 head about what it is you're giving them, and then 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:47.320 when you read what it is they're actually getting or reading, 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:50.680 it's like, oh. 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:52.000 Oh, now it's so interesting, isn't it. Like you don't 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:55.600 expect some of the comments that you get. You're like, oh, 0:08:55.800 --> 0:08:57.960 I have this, yeah exactly, like I think it's so 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:00.200 important what you just said. I love how you did 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:02.199 it in person, live, and you just gave them like 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:05.640 two hours to do it. I've never done it that way. 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:08.200 I've always just emailed it out and then you never 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:09.960 know when you're getting it back. Your way is so 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:17.240 much better, you know. So that's a really good idea 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:19.800 next time. But no, I remember when I cause I 0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:24.440 was I had done my an audio program kind of 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:28.320 like a podcast, but it was really about coping with 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:31.160 anxiety and challenging times. And I had written it during 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:34.360 the COVID period as well, and so I sent that 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:37.680 out to a bunch of people like is this, you know, helpful? 0:09:37.720 --> 0:09:40.199 And yeah, basically what you just did, like just read it, 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:43.040 what do you think is this whatever? And I remember 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:45.840 getting a comment about how because at the beginning I 0:09:45.960 --> 0:09:48.040 talk about you talk about this a lot too, like 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:52.640 to to manage anxiety or to make any change of 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:55.520 any kind, there is effort involved. So it's not you know, 0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:57.160 it's not just you're going to read it and everything's 0:09:57.160 --> 0:09:59.560 going to be fine. It's like the do the things 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:03.800 that are suggested. And one of the comments was you're 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:08.640 making this sound too hard. It's like, oh jeez, that 0:10:08.800 --> 0:10:11.320 was and I wasn't expecting that comment, and I was like, yeah, 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:17.040 I can totally understand what she's saying. Yes it, And 0:10:17.120 --> 0:10:20.600 I want to be truthful about the fact that you 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:22.720 have to put effort in order to get the outcomes 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:25.000 that you want, but that I also want people to 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:30.400 do it. So what's the balance between making sure people 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:32.920 know that they have to do work but also making 0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:37.719 sure they they they actually do it. They're not at 0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:41.360 the very beginning saying no, this is going to be 0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:43.760 too hard, so I'm not even going to try to 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:44.200 do it. 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:47.880 So I think one of the challenges for you and 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:50.839 and May like we we've got different jobs, but we're 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:51.760 in bulltok. 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:57.199 You know, will ask like we're trying to help people. Sure, Yeah, 0:10:57.679 --> 0:10:57.959 is that. 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:03.040 Like what's going to resonate with Sally, won't with Jane? 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:04.920 What's going to confuse Peter? 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:09.360 Will be complete like profound wisdom to John And so 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:12.440 it's like, fuck, I don't even know how to say this, 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:15.000 because whatever I say, it's going to confuse one person, 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:19.080 enlighten another person, make one person angry, and another person 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:22.600 think I'm a genius. Right, So it's like, how do 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:26.040 I share this thought or this idea or this strategy 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:32.000 or even this story in a way which will have 0:11:33.120 --> 0:11:38.440 the greatest chance of resonating with the most people, you know? 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:41.520 And that's an ever present challenge on this show, Like 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:43.960 how we talk about human behavior and psychology and the 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:46.160 brain and neuropsychology. 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:49.880 And you know whatever, without sounding. 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:56.760 Like aliens and without disenfranchising people or confusing people and 0:11:56.800 --> 0:12:01.080 still being relevant, but also giving people actual things that 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:04.040 they can you know, I was going to say operationalized, 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:08.679 like even that way, don't say that, craz don't say operationalized, 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:13.520 right exactly giving people ideas or strategies or tools that 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:16.480 they can go Oh Like, I'm like, look, this might 0:12:16.520 --> 0:12:18.000 not be for you, but a thing that I do 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:22.000 when that happens is I do this. So you know, 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:25.400 maybe this is not a prescription, but you might want 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:27.320 to try it. You might want to see what happens 0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:30.880 when you try it, and then maybe if you think 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:33.480 that's not a bad idea for you, then you kind 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:36.600 of weave that into your protocol or not see what happens. 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:41.120 Right, But that's the thing is trying to share. 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:45.840 You know, insight and psychology and wisdom and science with 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:48.920 people in a way that's not about me or you 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:52.440 stroking our ego going look at how clever we are. 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:55.640 Actually actually you know where people go. 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:58.360 I get that, I'm going to do that boom, Like 0:12:58.480 --> 0:13:01.840 Lilian said something, I try to something do something worked, 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:03.439 Thanks Lilian the end. 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:06.600 Yeah, Yeah, you want to make it as accessible as possible. 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:11.120 But also like I think sometimes for me, I'll I 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:16.199 don't have I usually can explain what, but I forget 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:19.920 sometimes to explain how Yes, And I think that that's 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:22.560 the part that people really want and need, is like 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:26.000 you know, I can, we can talk about skills, but 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:31.800 like break it down, how do I actually do this? Yeah? 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:33.840 And I think, you know, like that's what I would 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:36.280 get frustrated with if I was trying to learn something 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:39.280 like I'm trying to learn the whole range of things 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:43.640 to do with running a business and like sales and 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:46.600 marketing and all this crap. But I did I was 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:51.360 never educated on so and so if people are like, yeah, 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:53.280 this is what you do, and it's like, yeah, I 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:58.320 know what to do, but like tell me, like what's 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:01.600 step one, step two, step three? And then within that, 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:07.480 within step one, how in detail do you do step one? 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:14.520 You know, like there's all this assumed knowledge I think, 0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:18.640 and I definitely have, like I know, like from being 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:22.640 in psychology for so long, like for twenty five years, 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:25.640 you start to think that what you know is common sense, 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:28.200 and so you don't have to explain, and you don't 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:34.320 want to be an over explainer and you know, patronize people. 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:38.320 That's obviously not what we want to do. But at 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:43.040 the same time, we we have to understand that, you know, 0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:45.920 like explaining it in a way so that people can 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:49.600 actually action it so that it's helpful for them is 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:52.120 what's the important thing. And not to assume that everyone 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:56.600 knows what you think seems like common sense. It's only 0:14:56.640 --> 0:14:59.160 common sense because you've been doing it for twenty five years, 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:03.880 not because it's common sense. So yeah, so that's been 0:15:03.960 --> 0:15:04.840 tricky for me too. 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:09.120 It's I think it's ironic how many people who are in. 0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:14.360 The human behavior space don't understand how other humans think. 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:19.120 It's like they, you know, the false consensus affect people 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:20.760 think that other people think like them. 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:25.040 Yeah, so they erroneously listen to me, fuck. 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:28.320 Wrongly, wrongly, Greig. 0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:36.760 Sorry, So they wrongly assume that their intention, their intended meaning, 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:38.840 will be the other person's experience. 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:39.640 You know. 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:42.080 It's like, yeah, you know when someone goes, oh, you 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:44.400 did this and that new I felt this and that, 0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:47.320 and the person goes, oh, well, that definitely was my 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:50.600 wasn't my intention, and you go, it doesn't matter what 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:55.680 your intention was. It's nice, but your intention isn't necessarily 0:15:55.720 --> 0:16:00.000 my experience. So trying to even I mean, this is 0:15:59.840 --> 0:16:01.800 it my will has very much theory of mine and 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:04.920 met a perception and all that stuff, right, But to 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:09.320 try to actually understand how another person thinks, because how 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:13.880 I think may or may not have anything in common 0:16:13.920 --> 0:16:16.640 with how they think. So and I think one of 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:21.040 the mistakes that people make is that they think that, 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:26.640 you know, understanding how someone else thinks is analogous to 0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:31.040 listen to me is the same as agreeing with what 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:34.920 they think. It's like right, right, Like, I've worked with 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:37.040 our colleagues and addicts for a long time, but I've 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:40.080 never been drunk or high, and I don't you know, 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:45.760 I while I love addicts. I don't like addiction. But 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:49.160 the reason that I know now, after doing a bad 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:51.240 job for a while, I now know how to have 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:56.240 really good, meaningful, healthy, helpful conversations with people battling with 0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:59.160 addiction is because I've done it a lot, and I 0:16:59.280 --> 0:17:02.240 have some in site into their version of right now 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:05.600 because I've been in a lot of conversations with alcoholics 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:08.960 and people struggling with different kinds of addiction. Definitely not 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:11.439 an expert, but for someone who's never had booze and 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:14.560 never had a drug, I have some pretty good insight. 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:17.960 But it took a long time, and it took me 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:22.520 realizing Craig, they do not think anything like you, So 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:25.080 don't assume anything. Just shut the fuck up and be 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:28.840 present and listen and try to get away from your 0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:32.000 reality and have a look through their window. And then 0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:34.240 if you can see through their window a bit, which 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:38.320 is understanding, not agreeing, not aligning, just understanding, then you 0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:41.440 can build a level of connection and rapport where now 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:44.000 you can help them. But if I'm standing on my 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:47.920 judgmental I don't smoke, I don't drink, I train every day, 0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:51.200 be more like me, Well, you're going to create more 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:52.439 problems and solutions. 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:55.920 Yeah. Actually, that was one of the things that I 0:17:55.960 --> 0:17:58.000 was always interested in. I didn't know I was going 0:17:58.040 --> 0:18:01.840 to go into psychology WHI I was like nineteen or 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:08.520 twenty probably, but from very young I was. I became 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:16.240 interested in why I've noticed that people made choices like, 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:20.439 for instance, using drugs or alcohol, you know, at thirteen, fourteen, 0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:26.600 fifteen sixteen, Yeah, And I noticed that their willingness to 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:30.600 do that was different to my willingness, right, And so 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:34.560 I was really interested in why is it that I 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:37.640 think differently about this, Like why is it that they 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:43.159 make choices that I wouldn't make and vice versa? And 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:46.040 I did. That ended up being what I wanted to 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:50.560 do as my PhD, right, because I my first job 0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:54.040 out of out of UNI was working with young people 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:58.639 who had alcohol and drug problems, so age twelve to 0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:04.640 seventeen wow, who yeah? Who were Yeah? And they were 0:19:04.720 --> 0:19:13.760 remanded by the courts, usually to a residential substance rehabilitation 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:16.160 program and a lot of the people who worked there 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:19.439 were in AA or NA, and then they had some 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:22.880 counselors like you know, junior MBI. I was just out 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:30.640 of school to do work with this group. Of children basically, 0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:37.399 and like you said, it's well, I mean it was 0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:46.000 a it was a really good introduction to trauma, yeah, 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:52.199 and the impact of that on children, and and like 0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:54.560 what you said, like what's the important thing is to 0:19:54.640 --> 0:20:00.480 connect to understand We had children who would come men 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:06.919 who were very racist, for instance, and had to be 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:14.000 with other kids from other races and nationalities, and it 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:18.359 was and it was the process of being able to 0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:26.760 connect with someone like that and love them and care 0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:31.320 about them and see them change their mindset over time 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:37.080 was like really powerful. So when I went to do 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:41.520 my PhD, I really was interested in again like why 0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:45.040 what are the what are the things that influence decisions 0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:50.320 to use drugs and alcohol and make these kind of 0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:55.280 risky choices in life. But what happened was the person 0:20:55.359 --> 0:20:58.080 who could have been my supervisor for that was not available, 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:02.639 and the person who was in the eating disorder space 0:21:02.800 --> 0:21:07.240 was available. So I had to change my So I 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:09.800 wanted to study the same thing, but I changed my 0:21:11.600 --> 0:21:17.520 question away from substance abuse and towards unhealthy and risky 0:21:17.600 --> 0:21:21.800 eating and weight loss behavior choices basically, So it was 0:21:21.880 --> 0:21:24.520 kind of like, yeah, it was still about decision making 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:29.800 and risk taking, but with the different behavior or different behaviors. 0:21:30.280 --> 0:21:31.399 I didn't know that that was. 0:21:31.920 --> 0:21:37.080 So I started my PhD started, or where I started, 0:21:37.200 --> 0:21:41.320 was looking at the role of motivation, so nothing about 0:21:41.320 --> 0:21:45.760 metaproceptional metaaccuracy. Looking at the role of motivation what we call, 0:21:46.000 --> 0:21:49.800 you know, colloquially motivation as in that emotional state, that 0:21:50.320 --> 0:21:51.800 level of arousal excitement. 0:21:52.480 --> 0:21:54.120 So not motivation as in the. 0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:57.960 Reason for doing something, but more about the psychological and 0:21:58.040 --> 0:21:59.960 emotional state that people get in. 0:22:00.920 --> 0:22:02.520 And so I was looking at that. 0:22:02.680 --> 0:22:06.480 Kind of emotion, that kind of motivation, and how that 0:22:06.520 --> 0:22:12.720 correlated with success and what role motivation played in helping 0:22:12.760 --> 0:22:18.239 people change. And it was just super messy. It was 0:22:18.480 --> 0:22:24.480 just like, oh, there was no like even even there's 0:22:24.520 --> 0:22:28.560 no unified definition of motivation. Really there are a lot 0:22:28.600 --> 0:22:32.480 of kind of different thoughts around it, and it was 0:22:32.560 --> 0:22:35.520 just and I just it was just it was going 0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:37.119 to be a bit of a. 0:22:39.000 --> 0:22:41.960 Research minefield, and not in a good way, in a 0:22:42.000 --> 0:22:42.400 good way. 0:22:42.600 --> 0:22:45.800 So I had another idea, obviously, and I just leaned 0:22:45.800 --> 0:22:48.399 into that. But I think back to your thing about 0:22:48.400 --> 0:22:54.560 the kids, you know, and what predisposes somebody to be 0:22:54.640 --> 0:22:58.000 more or less inclined to choose to pick up booze 0:22:58.080 --> 0:22:59.680 or pick up a drug or you know, and there's 0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:05.520 a viron mental factors and you know, cultural sociological variables, factors, 0:23:05.520 --> 0:23:09.600 blah blah blah. Then there's like, yeah, you know, biochemical 0:23:09.720 --> 0:23:14.040 and genetic where some people seem to be more genetically 0:23:14.080 --> 0:23:19.600 predisposed to addiction. I mean David Gillespie who is on 0:23:20.600 --> 0:23:23.120 a lot with us, he talks a lot about how 0:23:23.400 --> 0:23:27.600 some brains just don't produce as much dopamine and naturally, 0:23:27.760 --> 0:23:30.960 so the only time that people actually feel normal and 0:23:31.000 --> 0:23:33.560 inverted commas is when they pick up booze and then 0:23:34.080 --> 0:23:38.400 so they're at a genetic disadvantage before they start. And yeah, 0:23:38.480 --> 0:23:44.240 I just think it's people, don't Some people do, I'm sure, 0:23:44.240 --> 0:23:46.560 but I think a lot of people see being an 0:23:46.600 --> 0:23:49.760 addict or being an alcoholic is almost a sign of 0:23:49.840 --> 0:23:54.199 weakness or like, oh wow, that's so not so not 0:23:54.320 --> 0:23:54.840 the case. 0:23:55.359 --> 0:23:58.920 Yeah, well, I mean any like mental health issues can 0:23:59.000 --> 0:24:00.480 be seen as a sign of weakness. 0:24:00.920 --> 0:24:02.840 Yeah yeah, yeah, And I. 0:24:03.280 --> 0:24:08.479