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Speaker 1: I'll get out of you, bloody champs. Welcome to another

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Speaker 1: installment the You Project. One of my favorite humans is back.

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Speaker 1: The very clever, the very beautifully voiced, the very dulcet

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Speaker 1: toned doctor Lillian is back.

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Speaker 2: Heank you, Craig.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I do what I can. I do what I can.

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Speaker 2: You know, I have to thank your listeners because last

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Speaker 2: time I was on the show, which was a few

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Speaker 2: months ago, now it feels like forever ago. I asked

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Speaker 2: if anyone wanted to volunteer to listen to some of

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Speaker 2: my new relaxation mindfulness exercises, and several of your listeners,

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Speaker 2: probably maybe six, said that they would love a couple

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Speaker 2: and I gave them a couple according to like what

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Speaker 2: they were interested in listening to. And yeah, it was

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Speaker 2: really good. It was really good to have people listen

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Speaker 2: to them for the first time and give me feedback

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Speaker 2: and so, you know, and you know, the voice thing,

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Speaker 2: it's nice to hear feedback about the fact that your

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Speaker 2: voice is relaxing. So that's nice.

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Speaker 1: You know, when you do your own you know, like

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Speaker 1: whatever you create a program, you write a book, or

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Speaker 1: you do a presentation or any of the things that

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Speaker 1: you and I do a little bit of it's hard

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Speaker 1: to like you have an idea of what it's like

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Speaker 1: or what it you know, how the presentation went, or

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Speaker 1: you know, you write something and you think, I think

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Speaker 1: this is not bad, and then you give it to

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Speaker 1: somebody else and they're like, that's that's inspirational or I

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Speaker 1: don't get it.

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Speaker 3: Or yeah, but that that's that.

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Speaker 1: Like I just finished one of my one of my papers,

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Speaker 1: and I had to then, well, I finished the first draft.

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Speaker 3: But this is an eighteen month paper, right, this is a.

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Speaker 1: Mega, mega systematic literature review, which you understand what started

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Speaker 1: with eleven hundred and fifty odd papers ended up with

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Speaker 1: about one hundred and twenty that I reviewed, one hundred

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Speaker 1: and twenty different lots of research to create this table,

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Speaker 1: to create this paper out of that, right, Yeah, then

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Speaker 1: you just got to go and email to all of

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Speaker 1: these people like my team, yea, my supervisor, to go, well,

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Speaker 1: here's the final or not, here's the first completed like

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Speaker 1: totally completed draft of my paper, and then you press

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Speaker 1: you know, refresh on your three months seventy two times

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Speaker 1: a day or more. More critically, I sent off you know,

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Speaker 1: one of my first papers or my first paper for

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Speaker 1: publication and what I guess a lot of people don't

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Speaker 1: know this or need to know this. But so when

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Speaker 1: you do a you know, like me, a doctorate in

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Speaker 1: psychology or neuropsychology, it's all research based. And I'm doing

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Speaker 1: mine by publication, which means I have to write papers

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Speaker 1: and then send them off to journals, scientific journals and

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Speaker 1: they will assess it and I'll go, we might publish it,

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Speaker 1: but you need to address these issues or no, we're

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Speaker 1: not publishing it, or yeah, we are publishing it. And

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Speaker 1: what you don't know when you're me, which is not

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Speaker 1: a real academic or definitely wasn't an academic slightly becoming one,

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Speaker 1: is so you can send it off and they don't

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Speaker 1: even respond for six months before they go no, I know, Well,

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Speaker 1: could you've told me that a week in You would

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Speaker 1: have saved me six months.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, it's so frustrating the whole process really, I mean,

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Speaker 2: whether it's by paper, whether it's to do the whole thing.

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Speaker 2: And like when I was doing my PhD, you didn't

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Speaker 2: have the option of doing it via publication in journals,

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Speaker 2: which would have been great actually, but we didn't have that.

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Speaker 3: I've still got a hand in a thesis. Don't worry, No, I.

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Speaker 2: Know you still have to do that, but like we

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Speaker 2: didn't get that opportunity to have people review it in

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Speaker 2: that way and even and have the chance to publish

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Speaker 2: articles before. What we did is like do the whole

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Speaker 2: thing whatever, you three hundred and fifty page you know,

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Speaker 2: book basically, and then you're expected afterwards to publish from that,

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Speaker 2: and you're like, no, I've just I've just written this

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Speaker 2: thing and I'm so over it. Like the last thing

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Speaker 2: I want to do is now edit it in five

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Speaker 2: different ways to create you know, articles that I can

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Speaker 2: actually publish for the rest of everyone else to see.

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Speaker 2: But you know, of course you should because you've just

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Speaker 2: done all this research and you want people to see

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Speaker 2: it and know about it. So yeah, it wasn't the best,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, the waiting game. And when whenever you create anything,

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Speaker 2: whether it's like an academic report or project, or whether

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Speaker 2: it's just you know, a relaxation exercise or a program

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Speaker 2: or whatever, it is hard to put it out there,

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Speaker 2: you know, like it is your work. You are you

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Speaker 2: are actually being judged for it.

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Speaker 1: And that's that's part of the vulnerability of even doing

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Speaker 1: a podcast, where yeah, I mean, every every single person

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Speaker 1: who listens to viewing me today, completely understandably because we're

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Speaker 1: all human, has an opinion about you know, is this good?

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Speaker 3: Is this crap? Should I listen? Should I lean in?

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Speaker 3: Should I turn it off? Should I? Is this valuable?

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Speaker 3: Do they know what they're talking about? Does he? Does she?

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Speaker 1: You know, it's like we're constantly judging, not necessarily in

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Speaker 1: a judgmental way, but just as in we're trying to

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Speaker 1: figure out what that is that we're listening to and

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Speaker 1: whether or not it's worth investing forty five minutes or

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Speaker 1: fifty minutes of.

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Speaker 3: My life into this thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.

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Speaker 1: I did a very brave thing with my last book,

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Speaker 1: which was called Listen to Me bragging very brave.

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Speaker 3: I was so brave.

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Speaker 1: I wrote a book called Twenty Questions for Humans, which

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Speaker 1: was really just not answering but really exploring twenty really

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Speaker 1: common questions that I get asked and a lot of

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Speaker 1: people get asked, right just about the human experience where

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Speaker 1: we just, you know, we just leaned in everything from

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Speaker 1: what's it like being around me? That Craig Harper Chestnut

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Speaker 1: through too, you know, what's the meaning of life?

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Speaker 3: Right? How do I find my purpose.

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Speaker 1: All that just like interesting stuff to have a conversation about.

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Speaker 1: And so I finished it and I reached out to

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Speaker 1: my I think it was Facebook community, and I said,

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Speaker 1: I need twenty five people to come to my Then

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Speaker 1: I had a commercial office at this time, so it

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Speaker 1: was only a few years ago I got rid of

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Speaker 1: the office in COVID, but I had had a forty

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Speaker 1: seat lecture theater, so a little lecture theater.

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Speaker 3: And some offices and a whole bunch of space.

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Speaker 1: And so I said, I want twenty five people to

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Speaker 1: come to my office next Saturday to read.

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Speaker 3: My book, the book that's not yet published.

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Speaker 1: It's I wrote it formulaically, right, and by that I

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Speaker 1: mean the average person reads I think it's two hundred

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Speaker 1: and fifty words a minute.

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Speaker 3: Something like that.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, I figured out that i'd written I'd written a

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Speaker 1: book that could be read by the average person in

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Speaker 1: about sixty to ninety minutes. So really sure, like fifteen

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Speaker 1: thousand words. Yeah, And I thought, well, it's easy to read.

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Speaker 1: It's not like people have got to spend eight hours,

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Speaker 1: Like even if they really amble through it, it's going

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Speaker 1: to take them two hours. So everybody came in. I

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Speaker 1: got twenty five people in like an hour. They all

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Speaker 1: showed up in person, which was very nice of them.

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Speaker 1: I gave them all a draft, you know, basically one

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Speaker 1: hundred pages or whatever it was, in a big alligator clip,

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Speaker 1: just you know, so like literally photo copied book hadn't

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Speaker 1: yet been sent for printing.

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Speaker 3: And publication, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: I gave them all two red pens and said, I

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Speaker 1: don't even want to tell you what you're looking for.

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Speaker 1: I just want you to read it. If you find

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Speaker 1: any mistakes, obviously you know, any grammar or any typos

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Speaker 1: or that'd be handy, but I just.

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Speaker 3: Want you to read it.

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Speaker 1: And you could write a whole lot, not much, nothing,

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Speaker 1: you could write on every page, no pages, but knock

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Speaker 1: yourself out. And so imagine how long that took me

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Speaker 1: to get through twenty five manuscripts. It took me about

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Speaker 1: two weeks. But it was really a worthwhile effort because

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Speaker 1: you get a real insight into twenty five other human

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Speaker 1: beings who are interpreting something that you share with a

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Speaker 1: certain intention and a certain kind of story in your

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Speaker 1: head about what it is you're giving them, and then

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Speaker 1: when you read what it is they're actually getting or reading,

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Speaker 1: it's like, oh.

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Speaker 2: Oh, now it's so interesting, isn't it. Like you don't

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Speaker 2: expect some of the comments that you get. You're like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I have this, yeah exactly, like I think it's so

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Speaker 2: important what you just said. I love how you did

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Speaker 2: it in person, live, and you just gave them like

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Speaker 2: two hours to do it. I've never done it that way.

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Speaker 2: I've always just emailed it out and then you never

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Speaker 2: know when you're getting it back. Your way is so

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Speaker 2: much better, you know. So that's a really good idea

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Speaker 2: next time. But no, I remember when I cause I

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Speaker 2: was I had done my an audio program kind of

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Speaker 2: like a podcast, but it was really about coping with

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Speaker 2: anxiety and challenging times. And I had written it during

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Speaker 2: the COVID period as well, and so I sent that

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Speaker 2: out to a bunch of people like is this, you know, helpful?

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Speaker 2: And yeah, basically what you just did, like just read it,

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Speaker 2: what do you think is this whatever? And I remember

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Speaker 2: getting a comment about how because at the beginning I

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Speaker 2: talk about you talk about this a lot too, like

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Speaker 2: to to manage anxiety or to make any change of

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Speaker 2: any kind, there is effort involved. So it's not you know,

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Speaker 2: it's not just you're going to read it and everything's

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Speaker 2: going to be fine. It's like the do the things

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Speaker 2: that are suggested. And one of the comments was you're

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Speaker 2: making this sound too hard. It's like, oh jeez, that

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Speaker 2: was and I wasn't expecting that comment, and I was like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I can totally understand what she's saying. Yes it, And

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Speaker 2: I want to be truthful about the fact that you

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Speaker 2: have to put effort in order to get the outcomes

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Speaker 2: that you want, but that I also want people to

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Speaker 2: do it. So what's the balance between making sure people

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Speaker 2: know that they have to do work but also making

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Speaker 2: sure they they they actually do it. They're not at

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Speaker 2: the very beginning saying no, this is going to be

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Speaker 2: too hard, so I'm not even going to try to

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Speaker 2: do it.

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Speaker 1: So I think one of the challenges for you and

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Speaker 1: and May like we we've got different jobs, but we're

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Speaker 1: in bulltok.

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Speaker 3: You know, will ask like we're trying to help people. Sure, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: is that.

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Speaker 1: Like what's going to resonate with Sally, won't with Jane?

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Speaker 3: What's going to confuse Peter?

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Speaker 1: Will be complete like profound wisdom to John And so

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Speaker 1: it's like, fuck, I don't even know how to say this,

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Speaker 1: because whatever I say, it's going to confuse one person,

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Speaker 1: enlighten another person, make one person angry, and another person

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Speaker 1: think I'm a genius. Right, So it's like, how do

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Speaker 1: I share this thought or this idea or this strategy

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Speaker 1: or even this story in a way which will have

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Speaker 1: the greatest chance of resonating with the most people, you know?

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Speaker 1: And that's an ever present challenge on this show, Like

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Speaker 1: how we talk about human behavior and psychology and the

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Speaker 1: brain and neuropsychology.

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Speaker 3: And you know whatever, without sounding.

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Speaker 1: Like aliens and without disenfranchising people or confusing people and

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Speaker 1: still being relevant, but also giving people actual things that

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Speaker 1: they can you know, I was going to say operationalized,

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Speaker 1: like even that way, don't say that, craz don't say operationalized,

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Speaker 1: right exactly giving people ideas or strategies or tools that

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Speaker 1: they can go Oh Like, I'm like, look, this might

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Speaker 1: not be for you, but a thing that I do

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Speaker 1: when that happens is I do this. So you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe this is not a prescription, but you might want

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Speaker 1: to try it. You might want to see what happens

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Speaker 1: when you try it, and then maybe if you think

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Speaker 1: that's not a bad idea for you, then you kind

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Speaker 1: of weave that into your protocol or not see what happens.

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Speaker 3: Right, But that's the thing is trying to share.

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Speaker 1: You know, insight and psychology and wisdom and science with

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Speaker 1: people in a way that's not about me or you

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Speaker 1: stroking our ego going look at how clever we are.

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Speaker 3: Actually actually you know where people go.

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Speaker 1: I get that, I'm going to do that boom, Like

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Speaker 1: Lilian said something, I try to something do something worked,

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Speaker 1: Thanks Lilian the end.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, you want to make it as accessible as possible.

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Speaker 2: But also like I think sometimes for me, I'll I

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Speaker 2: don't have I usually can explain what, but I forget

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Speaker 2: sometimes to explain how Yes, And I think that that's

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Speaker 2: the part that people really want and need, is like

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Speaker 2: you know, I can, we can talk about skills, but

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Speaker 2: like break it down, how do I actually do this? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: And I think, you know, like that's what I would

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Speaker 2: get frustrated with if I was trying to learn something

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Speaker 2: like I'm trying to learn the whole range of things

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Speaker 2: to do with running a business and like sales and

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Speaker 2: marketing and all this crap. But I did I was

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Speaker 2: never educated on so and so if people are like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: this is what you do, and it's like, yeah, I

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Speaker 2: know what to do, but like tell me, like what's

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Speaker 2: step one, step two, step three? And then within that,

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Speaker 2: within step one, how in detail do you do step one?

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Speaker 2: You know, like there's all this assumed knowledge I think,

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Speaker 2: and I definitely have, like I know, like from being

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Speaker 2: in psychology for so long, like for twenty five years,

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Speaker 2: you start to think that what you know is common sense,

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Speaker 2: and so you don't have to explain, and you don't

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Speaker 2: want to be an over explainer and you know, patronize people.

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Speaker 2: That's obviously not what we want to do. But at

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Speaker 2: the same time, we we have to understand that, you know,

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Speaker 2: like explaining it in a way so that people can

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Speaker 2: actually action it so that it's helpful for them is

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Speaker 2: what's the important thing. And not to assume that everyone

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Speaker 2: knows what you think seems like common sense. It's only

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Speaker 2: common sense because you've been doing it for twenty five years,

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Speaker 2: not because it's common sense. So yeah, so that's been

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Speaker 2: tricky for me too.

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Speaker 3: It's I think it's ironic how many people who are in.

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Speaker 1: The human behavior space don't understand how other humans think.

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Speaker 1: It's like they, you know, the false consensus affect people

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Speaker 1: think that other people think like them.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so they erroneously listen to me, fuck.

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Speaker 2: Wrongly, wrongly, Greig.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, So they wrongly assume that their intention, their intended meaning,

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Speaker 1: will be the other person's experience.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, you know when someone goes, oh, you

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Speaker 1: did this and that new I felt this and that,

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Speaker 1: and the person goes, oh, well, that definitely was my

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Speaker 1: wasn't my intention, and you go, it doesn't matter what

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Speaker 1: your intention was. It's nice, but your intention isn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: my experience. So trying to even I mean, this is

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Speaker 1: it my will has very much theory of mine and

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Speaker 1: met a perception and all that stuff, right, But to

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Speaker 1: try to actually understand how another person thinks, because how

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Speaker 1: I think may or may not have anything in common

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Speaker 1: with how they think. So and I think one of

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Speaker 1: the mistakes that people make is that they think that,

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Speaker 1: you know, understanding how someone else thinks is analogous to

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Speaker 1: listen to me is the same as agreeing with what

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Speaker 1: they think. It's like right, right, Like, I've worked with

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Speaker 1: our colleagues and addicts for a long time, but I've

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Speaker 1: never been drunk or high, and I don't you know,

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Speaker 1: I while I love addicts. I don't like addiction. But

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Speaker 1: the reason that I know now, after doing a bad

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Speaker 1: job for a while, I now know how to have

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Speaker 1: really good, meaningful, healthy, helpful conversations with people battling with

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Speaker 1: addiction is because I've done it a lot, and I

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Speaker 1: have some in site into their version of right now

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Speaker 1: because I've been in a lot of conversations with alcoholics

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Speaker 1: and people struggling with different kinds of addiction. Definitely not

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Speaker 1: an expert, but for someone who's never had booze and

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Speaker 1: never had a drug, I have some pretty good insight.

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Speaker 1: But it took a long time, and it took me

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Speaker 1: realizing Craig, they do not think anything like you, So

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Speaker 1: don't assume anything. Just shut the fuck up and be

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Speaker 1: present and listen and try to get away from your

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Speaker 1: reality and have a look through their window. And then

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Speaker 1: if you can see through their window a bit, which

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Speaker 1: is understanding, not agreeing, not aligning, just understanding, then you

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Speaker 1: can build a level of connection and rapport where now

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Speaker 1: you can help them. But if I'm standing on my

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Speaker 1: judgmental I don't smoke, I don't drink, I train every day,

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Speaker 1: be more like me, Well, you're going to create more

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Speaker 1: problems and solutions.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Actually, that was one of the things that I

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Speaker 2: was always interested in. I didn't know I was going

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Speaker 2: to go into psychology WHI I was like nineteen or

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Speaker 2: twenty probably, but from very young I was. I became

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Speaker 2: interested in why I've noticed that people made choices like,

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Speaker 2: for instance, using drugs or alcohol, you know, at thirteen, fourteen,

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Speaker 2: fifteen sixteen, Yeah, And I noticed that their willingness to

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Speaker 2: do that was different to my willingness, right, And so

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Speaker 2: I was really interested in why is it that I

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Speaker 2: think differently about this, Like why is it that they

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Speaker 2: make choices that I wouldn't make and vice versa? And

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Speaker 2: I did. That ended up being what I wanted to

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Speaker 2: do as my PhD, right, because I my first job

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Speaker 2: out of out of UNI was working with young people

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Speaker 2: who had alcohol and drug problems, so age twelve to

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Speaker 2: seventeen wow, who yeah? Who were Yeah? And they were

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Speaker 2: remanded by the courts, usually to a residential substance rehabilitation

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Speaker 2: program and a lot of the people who worked there

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Speaker 2: were in AA or NA, and then they had some

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Speaker 2: counselors like you know, junior MBI. I was just out

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Speaker 2: of school to do work with this group. Of children basically,

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Speaker 2: and like you said, it's well, I mean it was

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Speaker 2: a it was a really good introduction to trauma, yeah,

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Speaker 2: and the impact of that on children, and and like

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Speaker 2: what you said, like what's the important thing is to

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Speaker 2: connect to understand We had children who would come men

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Speaker 2: who were very racist, for instance, and had to be

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Speaker 2: with other kids from other races and nationalities, and it

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Speaker 2: was and it was the process of being able to

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Speaker 2: connect with someone like that and love them and care

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Speaker 2: about them and see them change their mindset over time

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Speaker 2: was like really powerful. So when I went to do

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Speaker 2: my PhD, I really was interested in again like why

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Speaker 2: what are the what are the things that influence decisions

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Speaker 2: to use drugs and alcohol and make these kind of

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Speaker 2: risky choices in life. But what happened was the person

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Speaker 2: who could have been my supervisor for that was not available,

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Speaker 2: and the person who was in the eating disorder space

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Speaker 2: was available. So I had to change my So I

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Speaker 2: wanted to study the same thing, but I changed my

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Speaker 2: question away from substance abuse and towards unhealthy and risky

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Speaker 2: eating and weight loss behavior choices basically, So it was

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Speaker 2: kind of like, yeah, it was still about decision making

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Speaker 2: and risk taking, but with the different behavior or different behaviors.

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Speaker 3: I didn't know that that was.

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Speaker 1: So I started my PhD started, or where I started,

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Speaker 1: was looking at the role of motivation, so nothing about

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Speaker 1: metaproceptional metaaccuracy. Looking at the role of motivation what we call,

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Speaker 1: you know, colloquially motivation as in that emotional state, that

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Speaker 1: level of arousal excitement.

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Speaker 3: So not motivation as in the.

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Speaker 1: Reason for doing something, but more about the psychological and

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Speaker 1: emotional state that people get in.

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Speaker 3: And so I was looking at that.

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Speaker 1: Kind of emotion, that kind of motivation, and how that

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Speaker 1: correlated with success and what role motivation played in helping

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Speaker 1: people change. And it was just super messy. It was

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Speaker 1: just like, oh, there was no like even even there's

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Speaker 1: no unified definition of motivation. Really there are a lot

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Speaker 1: of kind of different thoughts around it, and it was

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Speaker 1: just and I just it was just it was going

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Speaker 1: to be a bit of a.

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Speaker 3: Research minefield, and not in a good way, in a

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Speaker 3: good way.

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Speaker 1: So I had another idea, obviously, and I just leaned

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Speaker 1: into that. But I think back to your thing about

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Speaker 1: the kids, you know, and what predisposes somebody to be

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Speaker 1: more or less inclined to choose to pick up booze

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Speaker 1: or pick up a drug or you know, and there's

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Speaker 1: a viron mental factors and you know, cultural sociological variables, factors,

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Speaker 1: blah blah blah. Then there's like, yeah, you know, biochemical

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Speaker 1: and genetic where some people seem to be more genetically

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Speaker 1: predisposed to addiction. I mean David Gillespie who is on

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Speaker 1: a lot with us, he talks a lot about how

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Speaker 1: some brains just don't produce as much dopamine and naturally,

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Speaker 1: so the only time that people actually feel normal and

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Speaker 1: inverted commas is when they pick up booze and then

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Speaker 1: so they're at a genetic disadvantage before they start. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: I just think it's people, don't Some people do, I'm sure,

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Speaker 1: but I think a lot of people see being an

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Speaker 1: addict or being an alcoholic is almost a sign of

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Speaker 1: weakness or like, oh wow, that's so not so not

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Speaker 1: the case.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean any like mental health issues can

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Speaker 2: be seen as a sign of weakness.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, And I.

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Speaker 2: Truly like, I think the stigma has lessened over the years,

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Speaker 2: for sure, but it has not gotten to a level

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Speaker 2: that's where it needs to be, because those are still

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Speaker 2: words that people would use to describe people with mental

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Speaker 2: health issues.

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Speaker 3: Well, see it's the line, doc where.

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Speaker 1: Like, we want to help people, and of course, you know,

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Speaker 1: we want to be compassionate and empathetic and kind and

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Speaker 1: aware and all of those things. But like, I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: treat virtually anybody the way that I treat myself, Like

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm brutal with me, like I'm hard on me.

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Speaker 1: I don't give myself much credit for many things, you know,

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Speaker 1: And I'm not saying this is a good idea everyone,

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Speaker 1: but like I'm quite like I have a pretty strict

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Speaker 1: operating system that works for me. And in the middle

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Speaker 1: of that, like I'm pretty like far from perfect, but

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Speaker 1: pretty functional, pretty okay, right, yeah, but the stuff that

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Speaker 1: I make me do and the I wouldn't make most

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Speaker 1: people do. But at the same time, I think, how

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Speaker 1: do we how do we be both empathetic and kind

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Speaker 1: but also realistic and practical, because I mean, if you're

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Speaker 1: holding someone's hand for fifteen years and going there, there,

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Speaker 1: it'll be okay. And of course I'm being a little

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Speaker 1: bit tongue in cheek. At some stage, people have also

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Speaker 1: got to help themselves, like yes, support, yes, perhaps medication. Yes,

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Speaker 1: you know, kindest love, compassion.

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Speaker 3: All of it. I'm all for it.

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Speaker 1: But also I don't want my thirty five year old

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Speaker 1: friend who's struggling to wake up and be a fifty

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Speaker 1: year old friend who's made no progress. Yeah, because everybody's

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Speaker 1: trying to nerf the world.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well that I mean that is the the main

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Speaker 2: I guess I'm trying to think of the right word.

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Speaker 2: The main role of a like a therapist or like

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Speaker 2: what I try to do with my in my client work,

436
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 2: whether it's individual or in groups, is what's the balance.

437
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 2: What's the balance between yah supporting someone and challenging them?

438
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 2: And Uh, there's a there's some research that's been done

439
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 2: that I always think about when I think about that,

440
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:29,920
Speaker 2: and I can't I don't know who wrote it and

441
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 2: where it's from. I just remember what it is. But

442
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 2: there was some research done on group therapy and what

443
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:44,680
Speaker 2: they found was, so they had three different groups. One

444
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 2: was like just supportive, yes, one was just very change focused,

445
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 2: and one was a combination of both. Right, And so

446
00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 2: what they found was with the supportive group, huh, they

447
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:07,360
Speaker 2: had great reliable attendance, Like people came to that group, right,

448
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 2: it felt good. People felt supported and so they came

449
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 2: every week. But there was little change with the change group.

450
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 2: There was a lot of dropouts, yes, because there was

451
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,679
Speaker 2: they didn't have that other side, right, but with but

452
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 2: with the group that where they were they focused on

453
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,159
Speaker 2: both of those things obviously, you mean, you know the

454
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 2: results are going to be you know, they they they

455
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 2: stayed and they changed. So I think when you come

456
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:48,879
Speaker 2: to when you're in therapy, it really is about supporting them,

457
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 2: like supporting them and pushing them forward at the same time,

458
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 2: but not always at the same level, Like you're constantly

459
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 2: tie trading that depending on what's going on for the

460
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 2: person in the moment.

461
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 3: You look at you Todd Triting, you did it? You did?

462
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,119
Speaker 2: Did I did? Sorry? Yeah?

463
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: So yeah, but how do you know, like how do

464
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 1: you know and I mean I know there's no three

465
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 1: step plan, right, but how do you doctor Lilly? And

466
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 1: how do you know when to push someone a little?

467
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, I think I think this is an interesting thing.

468
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:31,360
Speaker 2: I think over time, what I've learned is trust your

469
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 2: client to tell you as well. Sometimes well what I

470
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 2: often tell my clients is, you know exactly what I

471
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 2: just said, Like, like, therapy is about you know, getting

472
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 2: support and also making changes, and that sometimes I might

473
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 2: I tell them that I might do one or the

474
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 2: other more than what you think is helpful. Yeah, And

475
00:28:55,800 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 2: so I want you to tell me if I'm off

476
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 2: in one direction when you need more of the other,

477
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 2: or vice versa. So part of it is being really

478
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 2: clear that I'm not always going to know exactly what

479
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 2: you need and want, and I'm going to need you

480
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 2: to tell me what you need and want as well.

481
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 2: But then there are times where you know, like based

482
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 2: on what's going on for the person. So if someone

483
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 2: is presenting overwhelmed and really burnt out and they've got

484
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 2: a lot of external stressors and there's so much distress,

485
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 2: you know, like then what they need is support. Right,

486
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 2: You're not like, you know, going to put more on

487
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 2: their plate yes to do like whereas others who might

488
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 2: just be if you're like not seeing any change and

489
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 2: you just hear like a lot of stuckness, then you're

490
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 2: you know, you're going to be pushing them forward and

491
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 2: getting them to start to do things, even if it's

492
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 2: in a slow, graded way. That's often how the best

493
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 2: way of going little behavioral we call them behavioral experiments,

494
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 2: which is essentially just like doing things as an experiment.

495
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 2: So you're not like saying you have to change this

496
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 2: behavior and do this behavior forever. You're saying, well, you

497
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 2: have these kind of ideas about what this behavior may

498
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 2: or may not do. Let's see and let's set up

499
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 2: an experiment, and like, you tell me what you think

500
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 2: is going to happen, and then we're going to set

501
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 2: it up so that you do it, and then you're

502
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:37,959
Speaker 2: going to come back and you're gonna tell me what happened.

503
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 1: Okay, what about Yeah? What about somebody who I think

504
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 1: quite often what people want is not what they need. Right,

505
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: So what people want is the couch and Cheetos and

506
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 1: a cornetto and Netflix.

507
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 3: What they need is to get the fuck up and

508
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 3: go for a walk.

509
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like I'm going to tell you, oh, you

510
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: know what I need, But I'm not really telling you

511
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 1: what I need. I'm telling you what I want because

512
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: what I actually need from you is to go No,

513
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: that's not real, Craig. That's an excuse. That's not a reason,

514
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: that's a that's an excuse wearing a pretty dress. Right, Yeah,

515
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 1: so but what I you know, I'll go, oh, look,

516
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 1: I can't. I can't work out because I've got a

517
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 1: sore ankle, and you go, well, Craig, I'm pretty sure

518
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: there's nine hundred things you can do that won't involve

519
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 1: your ankle, right, So, I mean, I'm not trying to

520
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 1: be a hard ass, but I just think, you know,

521
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 1: I had so many conversations with people who I look

522
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:36,719
Speaker 1: at them and I'm like, you could do so much.

523
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: There's so many things that you could do. You're so talented,

524
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 1: you've got such good genetics, you're so smart, but you're

525
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 1: so fucking soft, Like any reason to give up, you

526
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: find it, any reason to stop, you stop.

527
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 3: And this has been decades.

528
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:56,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, and no, we're not all We're not all going

529
00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: to be you know, fucking worry and I get all

530
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: of that, but at some stage it's like, my mum

531
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 1: is the toughest person I know her and John, my

532
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: friend that got blown up, but Mum, Mum's been at

533
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: death's door three times, just the most resilient, most tough,

534
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 1: best attitude, and she's an eighty five year old, forty

535
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 1: two kilo woman who's fucking terrifying. That's all I mean

536
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: is like, we don't have to be big and physically strong.

537
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: But you know, if we really want to be capable

538
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: and resilient and be able to be the calm and

539
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 1: the chaos and create good results and change and learn

540
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 1: and grow and evolve, which everyone kind of says they

541
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: want to, Well, you need to go and do hard things.

542
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 3: Sometimes not all the time, not all day every day.

543
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 1: And by the way, you can't always be right, you know,

544
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 1: when do we open that door where we go no,

545
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 1: I call bullshit or we don't because you you know,

546
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 1: and I know, but you're nicer than me that some

547
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 1: people are full of shit.

548
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 2: I feel like that's I mean, of course that's true.

549
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 2: Like I think we're all full of shit sometimes. Yeah,

550
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 2: I think for the most part, by time people get

551
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 2: to me, Yeah, they know what they need and they

552
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 2: know what they want, and they know when those things

553
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 2: are clashing against each other, right, and they can say

554
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 2: it openly and if I and if they can't say it,

555
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 2: and I say it for them, it is it is

556
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 2: more often than not acknowledged.

557
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 3: Is yeah true?

558
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 2: Okay, But I do think you're right. There is a

559
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 2: place for challenging people in that way like that, the

560
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 2: way that you're saying, I think that you know, there

561
00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 2: are real obstacles two people changing, and some of them

562
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 2: are not obvious. Yes, And so the way that I

563
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,879
Speaker 2: look at it with my clients is, let's look at

564
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 2: what could be getting in the way. And I think

565
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:19,439
Speaker 2: I might have mentioned this before on the previous show,

566
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 2: but I just divide it up into like thoughts, feelings, relationships, behaviors,

567
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 2: and circumstances and just get them to I have like

568
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 2: a worksheet that you know, I give to them to

569
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 2: like work through all of that so that we know

570
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 2: from the beginning what's going to get in the way

571
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 2: of change, and so that we can start dealing with

572
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,320
Speaker 2: that first. There's and you know, I think that maybe

573
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:51,319
Speaker 2: part of the reason I thought to do that was

574
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:56,479
Speaker 2: because of my training in dialectical behavior therapy, because that's

575
00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 2: a therapy that has a pre commitment part of it

576
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 2: built in, so before you are accepted into the treatment,

577
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 2: you do this thing called a pre commitment face, which

578
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 2: is really two well, one orient them to the treatment,

579
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 2: orient people to the treatment, but also to say like whoa,

580
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 2: what you know what's going to get in the way?

581
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 2: Like are you are you actually sure you want to

582
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 2: do this? Because this is actually really hard it's very

583
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 2: time consuming. It's going to be super uncomfortable. You're going

584
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 2: to have to come for three hours a week, You're

585
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:35,799
Speaker 2: going to have to talk in front of people you

586
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 2: don't know, like this might not be the right thing

587
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 2: for you, Like what's going to get and if you

588
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 2: do want to be part of it, what's going to

589
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 2: get in the way and how are you going to

590
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 2: deal with that? Yeah, and so when you do all

591
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 2: of that upfront, then when things start getting hard and

592
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 2: motivation lags and discipline lags, and you know, people stop,

593
00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 2: you know they're not attending or they're not doing the

594
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:01,879
Speaker 2: home work, or they're not you know, doing what they

595
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,280
Speaker 2: said they were going to do. You're like, well, we've

596
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 2: we've already we already knew that this might happen, and

597
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 2: we've already problem solved it. Here's what you said you

598
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,880
Speaker 2: know would work or that you would commit to should

599
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 2: this occur. So I think even just having that being

600
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 2: very clear from the beginning, like what the what the

601
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,879
Speaker 2: purpose of you know, if it's therapy or if it's

602
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:29,840
Speaker 2: you know, coaching or whatever, it is a group program,

603
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 2: this is what it is. Be very clear about what

604
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 2: it is and what what part you play in this process.

605
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 2: And if you're not ready for it, that's okay, Just

606
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 2: there's other things you can do. You don't have to

607
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 2: do this, But if you are ready for it, this

608
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 2: is what it involves, and this is what the expectations are.

609
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, how flexible or adaptable or varied?

610
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:04,399
Speaker 1: I guess is the programming or the prescription with what

611
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 1: you do? Like when I just compare to say, you know,

612
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 1: being a trainer or an exercise physiologist or whatever, and

613
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 1: people come in and you know, some people have got

614
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 1: them training like a powerlift. To some people they're doing

615
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 1: a whole lot of flexibility and balance. Some people are

616
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 1: really just trying to get better posture. Yeah, some people

617
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 1: are doing heaps of pinloaded shits. Some people don't touch pinloaded.

618
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,280
Speaker 1: Some people are doing really functional kettlebell training. Some people

619
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 1: are doing deadlifts and squads. Some people are running, some

620
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 1: people are working on like it's some people like it's

621
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:39,240
Speaker 1: really varied. It's it's not on any level, cookie cutter.

622
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, what about?

623
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 1: And I guess psychologically, mentally, emotionally, cognitively, people are just

624
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,799
Speaker 1: as diverse as they are biologically and physical as in

625
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: you know, body, sure mine brain like how do you

626
00:37:56,239 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 1: figure out other than in a assessment.

627
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 3: I guess that's a big part of it.

628
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 1: Figure out how do you figure out where you're going

629
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 1: to go because what you'll do with Craig would be optimal,

630
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: but it won't be with Dive.

631
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean what you said is you do start

632
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 2: with an assessment. So you start with getting to know

633
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 2: the person. Yeah, and you start with well what are

634
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:25,839
Speaker 2: they here for? And well, when you're a clinical psychologist,

635
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 2: it's often a mental health issue or disorder that they're

636
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 2: coming in for. And then you start then you start thinking, Okay,

637
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:39,839
Speaker 2: what are the most effective evidence based treatments for that? Yeah?

638
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 2: And so what we would normally do with a client,

639
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 2: or I should speak for a mist what I would

640
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:50,439
Speaker 2: normally do with a client is I usually present them

641
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:54,360
Speaker 2: with like a brief on like my formulation of the

642
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 2: problem based on what they have told me. Yeah, this

643
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 2: is all by the way, I always say in draft form,

644
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:05,439
Speaker 2: like because because it's collaborative. So I'm like, you've said

645
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 2: this stuff and I've formulated it, and now I want

646
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,720
Speaker 2: your feedback on is this correct or is it what's missing?

647
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 2: Like you know, all of that sort of stuff. So

648
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 2: I give them like a little brief and then I

649
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,799
Speaker 2: and that includes the what they've come in for, but

650
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 2: also what their strengths are and what's making what's kind

651
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 2: of perpetuating or making the issue worse. And then I

652
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 2: have like a chart with three columns and one is

653
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 2: like what they said their goals were in the left column,

654
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,359
Speaker 2: and then in the middle like the strategies that I

655
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 2: think would assist them with these issues. And then the

656
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 2: last column the expected outcomes. So if we implemented these

657
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 2: treatments or strategies, what we would expect the outcomes to

658
00:39:57,520 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 2: be at the end, so they have like a very

659
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 2: clear and then also I often will give them a

660
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:06,839
Speaker 2: couple of questionnaires to see where they are objectively kind

661
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 2: of at a baseline, so that we can measure change

662
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 2: over time, so that it's not just based on my

663
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 2: subjective view that they're better or worse, that we actually

664
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 2: have some data that supports it as well. And then yeah,

665
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 2: then I give it to them to have a look

666
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 2: at and make changes and decide what their priorities are.

667
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 2: And then we go So I mean we usually start

668
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 2: with an evidence based treatment, for instance, with anxiety problems

669
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 2: and disorders cognitive behavioral therapy is generally the go to

670
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:48,320
Speaker 2: for that. Does that suit everybody? No, it suits seventy percent.

671
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 2: So I work eclectically in the sense that I'm not

672
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 2: married to CBT. I know that one formula doesn't work

673
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 2: for everybody, but we'll start with the one that usually

674
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:07,399
Speaker 2: works yes, and if it doesn't, then we can move

675
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:10,760
Speaker 2: to another evidence based treatment that does it slightly differently.

676
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 2: Sometimes I'll do it like that. Sometimes I'll present them

677
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 2: like the different options up front and say what do

678
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,319
Speaker 2: you think it would work best for you? And we

679
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 2: can start with that option. Yeah. So I definitely have

680
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,840
Speaker 2: like there's a structure and models there, but it's not rigid.

681
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 2: It's definitely flexible and adaptable to the person.

682
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 1: I was going to ask you a question that's quite philosophical.

683
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 1: It's down the old conversational rabbit hole, but I'm gonna

684
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you the question I was going

685
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 1: to ask, but then I'm going to change it. So

686
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,439
Speaker 1: the question I was going to ask you is how

687
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 1: well do you.

688
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 3: Think people understand themselves?

689
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 1: But my actual question, my modified question is I don't

690
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 1: know the answer to this, So it's not like I

691
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 1: know the answer. I'm waiting to hear if you agree

692
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 1: with me, Yeah, my question is how can we understand

693
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,800
Speaker 1: ourselves better? I'm not even sure what that question means totally,

694
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 1: but what comes to mind for you? Like to me,

695
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 1: it's in the space of you know, self awareness, and

696
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 1: I think soccer he said to know thyself is the

697
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,440
Speaker 1: beginning of wisdom, right, So I feel like knowing yourself

698
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:31,720
Speaker 1: and understanding yourself kind of same.

699
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 3: Same.

700
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 1: What comes to mind for you when I say like

701
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 1: getting to understand ourselves or know ourselves?

702
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 2: Well, the first thing that pops into my mind is

703
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 2: such a CBT thing to say. It's very It's called

704
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 2: self monitoring. So what all that means is like, if

705
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 2: you're like, pick, what are you actually trying to work

706
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 2: out about yourself and then create some awareness about that

707
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:04,919
Speaker 2: in your life? And often that involves writing writing stuff down.

708
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:10,400
Speaker 2: So if we and this is like a very common

709
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 2: what we would say homework, Yeah, that we would give

710
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 2: our clients. So that might be, for instance, if people

711
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 2: are having trouble with a particular emotion like anxiety, depression, anger, even,

712
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 2: then we would give them a worksheet where they would

713
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,759
Speaker 2: note down whenever they felt that feeling at it at

714
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 2: a level that was dysfunctional. They'd write the feeling down,

715
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 2: and then they'd write down what thoughts are going through

716
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 2: their head at that moment, right, And then then they

717
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 2: would write down the situation that it occurred within, right,

718
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:55,839
Speaker 2: and then they would write down what they did. Yeah, right,

719
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 2: And that's like the very beginning. And then you, if

720
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,359
Speaker 2: you have what I would say, you know, give them

721
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:04,879
Speaker 2: the worksheet, explain why the rationale were doing it, Send

722
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 2: them away for a week or two, say, write as

723
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 2: many of these instances as you can, and then when

724
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 2: you bring it back in, we'll look at all of

725
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:19,479
Speaker 2: this data basically about your life and how anger shows

726
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 2: up for you, for instance, and find the patterns. And

727
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:29,959
Speaker 2: you might find patterns in the situations. You might find

728
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 2: patterns in the thoughts, you might find patterns in the behaviors.

729
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 2: Like you probably find patterns in all of these things,

730
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 2: and that whole process then helps you understand why you

731
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 2: might flare up, for instance. So that's like one aspect

732
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:51,759
Speaker 2: that's like a very present tense way of doing it, right,

733
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,880
Speaker 2: there's also like past tense, like what's gone on in

734
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 2: your life before that may be leading to these kinds

735
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:03,400
Speaker 2: of responses. Now, so that might be you know, that

736
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 2: would be involved taking a history connecting the dots for people.

737
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:11,800
Speaker 2: There are some really good questionnaires that can help people

738
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 2: understand where their core beliefs and schemas have come from

739
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 2: and why they might have developed that way because of

740
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:21,520
Speaker 2: their early attachments or their early you know, experiences with

741
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 2: their caregivers and things like that. So there's a whole

742
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 2: range of ways that people can get to know themselves better.

743
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 2: But I think sometimes it's just like put pen to

744
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 2: paper and write about what's going on. And then that

745
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:44,320
Speaker 2: actually is in and of itself therapeutic, Like when people

746
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:48,360
Speaker 2: come in with panic disorder, for instance, and they're like,

747
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:49,839
Speaker 2: I don't know, they're just coming out of the blue

748
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 2: and I don't know what's happening and what's going on,

749
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 2: and then you send them home to write about what happens, Yeah,

750
00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:59,359
Speaker 2: you know, when it happened, for how long, what were

751
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,800
Speaker 2: the symptoms, what was a situation, what was happened before,

752
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 2: what happened after. Hannah can reduce just through the act

753
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:12,719
Speaker 2: of monitoring panic. Yeah, yeah, So it's therapeutic just as

754
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 2: a tool in and of itself.

755
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:15,920
Speaker 3: And I think.

756
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 1: Like realizing that I've had this happened before and I

757
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 1: didn't die.

758
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 3: You know.

759
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:23,320
Speaker 1: Yeah.

760
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 3: One of my friends used to have panic attacks.

761
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 1: And mostly not around me, but then one day he

762
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 1: had one around me.

763
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 3: And I said this recently on the podcast, so apologies everyone, but.

764
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:39,279
Speaker 1: You know, I just I was with him, and you know,

765
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: I said, what's going on? And he told me what's

766
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 1: going on? And I said, how many times do you?

767
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:43,759
Speaker 2: So?

768
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 3: I didn't go, oh God, are you all right? What

769
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 3: can I do? I went, oh, wow, I go, how

770
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:50,280
Speaker 3: many times do you reckon? This has happened to you?

771
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 1: And he goes hundreds and hundreds hundreds, I go, and

772
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:57,839
Speaker 1: I go, and you didn't die any of those times, right,

773
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 1: And it's like, well, obviously not. You're probably not going

774
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 1: to die this time, right. He's like, well no, I go. So,

775
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 1: you know, and I think almost getting comfortable in the discomfort.

776
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 1: You know, oh, I recognize this, and just like there's

777
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 1: of course, there's the feeling, there's the anxiety, there's everything

778
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,759
Speaker 1: that's going on in the body, but also there's this

779
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:24,800
Speaker 1: awareness and knowing that oh, this this is not terminal.

780
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 1: It's horrible, but it's not going to but it's not

781
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:29,440
Speaker 1: going to kill me. And then all of a sudden

782
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:32,799
Speaker 1: recognition kind of brings things down a tiny bit.

783
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 2: Oh well, I mean that's the treatment. That's literally basically

784
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:38,959
Speaker 2: what it is. I mean, for panic attacks to become

785
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 2: a panic disorder, it really is, because it's like the

786
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 2: criteria for that is worry about having another panic attack. Yeah, yes,

787
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 2: so you're the treatment is to help people not worry

788
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 2: about it because and not catastrophize the experience, and when

789
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:00,960
Speaker 2: they're in the experience, to be able to say to themselves,

790
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 2: this will be over in ten minutes. You know, it's

791
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 2: really uncomfortable, but I cope with it before, you know,

792
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 2: like just changing the way that they talk to themselves

793
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 2: through it, because normally what people will be thinking is

794
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 2: I'm having a hard attack, I'm going crazy, I'm out

795
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 2: of control this, you know, because this is horrible. I'm

796
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:21,760
Speaker 2: going to like all those all those kind of catastrophizing thoughts,

797
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:25,919
Speaker 2: which of course make it worse, lasts longer, and make

798
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:31,640
Speaker 2: it very anxiety provoking for you know, anticipating the next one.

799
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 2: So and you know, I think part of the thing

800
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:39,480
Speaker 2: with self monitoring, going back to that is one of

801
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:43,720
Speaker 2: the reasons why it's so powerful is because it's essentially mindfulness.

802
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 2: It's essentially like stopping and being more aware of what

803
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 2: you're experiencing in an objective, non judgmental way. You know,

804
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:01,759
Speaker 2: it's like doing a science, scientific study on yourself. Yeah,

805
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 2: I think that that's why it actually helps so much.

806
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:08,400
Speaker 1: Well, I had to do this, but it's six minutes

807
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:10,800
Speaker 1: to three and I'm meant to meet my training partner

808
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 1: at three, so he's going to be very sad when

809
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:13,279
Speaker 1: I'm not there.

810
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:15,720
Speaker 2: But I can't believe it's gone by so quickly.

811
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:19,280
Speaker 1: I know it went quick, didn't it. Hey tell people

812
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:21,440
Speaker 1: how to connect with you, please.

813
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 2: Doc Doctorliliannija dot com is my website and also contain

814
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 2: your Brain dot com if you want to have a

815
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,920
Speaker 2: look into managing your worry. Got an app for that

816
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:37,279
Speaker 2: that's free. So if you want more information about that,

817
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 2: you can go there.

818
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 1: You need to learn how to promote yourself a little

819
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 1: bit more enthusiastically. Please, do you sound like you're apologizing.

820
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:48,839
Speaker 3: I'm sorry. I have a website. I'm sorry, I'm here.

821
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:53,080
Speaker 3: Go and check it out. She's amazing. Go and check

822
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 3: it out. She's bloody life changing. There you go, I'll

823
00:49:56,600 --> 00:50:00,120
Speaker 3: say it's Craig. We'll say goodbye. I fair doc, but

824
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 3: tom as always thank you, appreciate.

825
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 2: You great being here. Thanks Craig,