Speaker 1: Apologie production.
Speaker 2: Hi, my name's beck Woodbine and welcome to Tenderness for Nurses.
Speaker 1: I'm grateful for the person that I have the opportunity
Speaker 1: to be, so I hit it and parked it for
Speaker 1: Nelly four years.
Speaker 2: We always have free will, We always get to choose.
Speaker 2: We are autonomous. Afternoon, everyone, Welcome to Tendinness for Nurses.
Speaker 2: Today we have Becky Cavalaro with us who is a
Speaker 2: regted nurse, registered midwife. She is a lactation consultant but
Speaker 2: also a prescribing registered midwife. Becky runs her own business
Speaker 2: around maternity and lactation consultancy and a few other bits
Speaker 2: and bobs that we'll get into, and it's called Full
Speaker 2: Circle Midwife. It's based here in Brisbane. So welcome Becky,
Speaker 2: thank you, thank you for having me. Oh my absolute pleasure. Now,
Speaker 2: how about you fill everyone in on you your journey
Speaker 2: to be where you are today, because looking at what
Speaker 2: you've achieved, there's a fabit of study that's gone into
Speaker 2: your nursing Korea in midw free career.
Speaker 1: Gosh, I don't even know where to start. I think
Speaker 1: the journey started in primary school really, where I knew
Speaker 1: from the get go that I wanted to be a midwife.
Speaker 1: There was never another path. It was a genuine calling.
Speaker 1: So everything I did from my Bachelor of nursing, because
Speaker 1: direct entry midwif free wasn't available, everything I did career
Speaker 1: wise was directed towards becoming midwife. I became a nurse first,
Speaker 1: became a ni natal intensive care nurse to consolidate those skills.
Speaker 1: I wanted really good foundations before I did my MIDW
Speaker 1: free and because I was straight out of high school
Speaker 1: at that stage for nursing, I couldn't do MIDW free directly.
Speaker 1: And then went into MIDW three and I loved it
Speaker 1: and wanted to have continuity of care and do the
Speaker 1: full scope of practice. So I actually went on to
Speaker 1: get my mid with free registration in the UK. Oh wow, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: which wasn't straightforward at all, but there was a different
Speaker 1: caliber of midwife in the UK. Back in you know,
Speaker 1: two thousand and six, early two thousands there to Australia,
Speaker 1: and actually my Australian training didn't quite make the cut,
Speaker 1: so I actually had to come back. I could either
Speaker 1: redo my MIDW three in the UK or come back
Speaker 1: to Australia.
Speaker 2: So you came back and you did more, so you
Speaker 2: did your masters here?
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I finished my mid with free training, went
Speaker 1: to the UK. I worked as an inatal intensive care
Speaker 1: nurse and then came back to Australia to complete further
Speaker 1: studies so I could get my UK midw free and
Speaker 1: then worked in the UK as a midwife. But it
Speaker 1: took me down a research path anyway. It's a long journey,
Speaker 1: but basically midwife by heart and the path weanded to
Speaker 1: research and natal intensive care, nursing and now lactation. So
Speaker 1: lactation was where things evolved when I had children and
Speaker 1: I was a full time continuity of care private practice midwife.
Speaker 2: What research did you do in the UK?
Speaker 1: I was the manager of the Women's Health Research Center
Speaker 1: at Imperial College London. There was a site at Saint
Speaker 1: Mary's and Queen Charlotte's in London and supported heaps and
Speaker 1: heaps of different women's health studies. I guess the interesting
Speaker 1: thing about how I ended up in research was more
Speaker 1: of a personal story which I'm happy to share. I
Speaker 1: had a car accident. I was hit by a car
Speaker 1: and unable to physically work as a midwife for a while.
Speaker 1: It brought me down that research path and yeah, I
Speaker 1: absolutely loved it, So I very much have I guess
Speaker 1: the mind, the curiosity for research. I think we really
Speaker 1: need to contribute to the to the evidence we work from.
Speaker 1: And yeah, my time in research in the UK was
Speaker 1: just fascinating, really cool, diverse stuff.
Speaker 2: So you're on the International Board of Certified Lactation Consultants. Yeah,
Speaker 2: is there an Australian Lactation Group or that's who you
Speaker 2: all belong to.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an exam. There's a whole lot of criteria
Speaker 1: to become an IBCLC International Board Certified Lactation Consultant and
Speaker 1: there's an exam one hundred and seventy five questions, really
Speaker 1: full on. But it's an international certification gold standard, highest
Speaker 1: level for lactation. I guess education and support. But that's
Speaker 1: there's no sort of governing body, that's just national.
Speaker 2: What did you have to do to become a prescribing
Speaker 2: registered midwife?
Speaker 1: Got the hoops? I've done through back?
Speaker 2: God, isn't it when you become an advanced practice.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot I had to I think it
Speaker 1: was at least five years experience in the full continuum
Speaker 1: of pregnancy, anti natal intrapartum, so through birth and post
Speaker 1: natal experience. I had to have evidence of that. I
Speaker 1: had to do a prescriber's course. I had to submit
Speaker 1: what was like I felt like my life to APRA.
Speaker 1: I actually went into labor the next day after I
Speaker 1: submitted that, so I'm sure that was a surprised. It
Speaker 1: was pretty intense. Gosh, declarations or statements of service, all
Speaker 1: the evidence. I think that's it. Gosh, I can't even remember.
Speaker 2: Was that through a university to do that or was
Speaker 2: it independent?
Speaker 1: So the prescribing course was through Griffith University. Everything else
Speaker 1: was through APRA.
Speaker 2: I tell you what I doing my NPS, my masters
Speaker 2: was one of the hardest things I have ever ever done.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I know a few nps and it
Speaker 1: sounds hectic. It is so.
Speaker 2: Hectic, And then you would have been exactly the same.
Speaker 2: When we put out my application in to be an
Speaker 2: endorsed Nurse practitioner. I'm not joking. It was novel, a novel, yeah,
Speaker 2: and I had collected everything. Oh my god, it just
Speaker 2: was And you know, I was really blessed. I was
Speaker 2: accepted really quickly because I think I had so they
Speaker 2: probably looked at it and went, oh my god, let's just tick,
Speaker 2: She's got enough stuff. But it was a tome And
Speaker 2: I know so many nurses now that have done their
Speaker 2: masters and haven't been endorsed. Yeah. Wow, just because you
Speaker 2: do your masters as a nurse practitioner doesn't mean you
Speaker 2: become an endorsed nurse practitioner.
Speaker 1: It really was a gathering of evidence. Yeah, like right
Speaker 1: through to submitting a philosophy of Midway three, you know.
Speaker 1: And as much as it was time can assuming, I'm
Speaker 1: sure you probably feel the same like it's so time consuming,
Speaker 1: but it really helps. It really helped me reflect and
Speaker 1: know the why behind what I do, why I do it,
Speaker 1: where I was going. So yeah, it was great even
Speaker 1: though it took heaps of energy.
Speaker 2: It does, it really does. I had to as part
Speaker 2: of my MPs because I was dermatology focused. I did
Speaker 2: a couple of subjects with the Masters of Medicine Skin
Speaker 2: Cancer course and it would have to have been the
Speaker 2: hardest subject I've ever done in my life and we
Speaker 2: had to pass by eighty percent, had to pass the
Speaker 2: exam by eighty percent. It was stressful. I was the
Speaker 2: only nurse in that cohort doing that sub or a
Speaker 2: couple of those subjects. There were twenty five of us
Speaker 2: that started. Seventeen of us passed, and I was really poopooed,
Speaker 2: Like I was given a bit of a hard time
Speaker 2: online because I was a nurse doing the course, but
Speaker 2: I was one of the only ones that passed, and
Speaker 2: probably passing that, I had far more satisfaction than with
Speaker 2: anything else. And it was because, you know, climbed mountain
Speaker 2: to get that, and you know, I had been there
Speaker 2: was a bit of online bullying towards me being ans
Speaker 2: and not being a doctor doing those courses, so it
Speaker 2: felt pretty good, too good on you to pass that
Speaker 2: at the level I passed it. So I do get
Speaker 2: the you know, it's a lot of work, a lot
Speaker 2: of hoops to jump through, and when you get to
Speaker 2: the end, it is really worth it totally.
Speaker 1: And you know, it's so beneficial to me now because
Speaker 1: I wear two hats as a private practice midwife and
Speaker 1: lactation consultant, and because I have the ability to give
Speaker 1: Medicare rebates in the first six weeks as a post
Speaker 1: natal console that also involves lactation, I'm cost effective, so
Speaker 1: it's excellent for the women.
Speaker 2: So with your Medicare rebate, how much is it like
Speaker 2: it is for us withness practitioners as a consult like
Speaker 2: the first one, it's forty plus minutes and we get
Speaker 2: fifty seven dollars.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's short or long post natally and anti natally.
Speaker 1: There's a different price for short and long. I think
Speaker 1: long is over forty minutes. All my consults are hours,
Speaker 1: and I think it's currently like seventy six okay, rebate
Speaker 1: for the long, so it's good.
Speaker 2: Do you do charge a gap?
Speaker 1: Definitely? Yeah, Like I couldn't run a business just bolt build.
Speaker 1: I have tried through COVID, I did, and thankfully the
Speaker 1: rebates have actually gone up for women. But I do
Speaker 1: set my prices with the rebate going back to the
Speaker 1: women so comparable for lactation consultants without Medicare rebates because
Speaker 1: there's no Medicare rebates for lactation consultancy at all, none,
Speaker 1: which is crazy. But you know, there's lots of crazy
Speaker 1: in the post natal world.
Speaker 2: There's lots of crazy in health period, and it is
Speaker 2: getting it is getting crazier. I have to say, yeah,
Speaker 2: particularly since COVID. And it's interesting you say that because
Speaker 2: I did a lot of online consulting and it was
Speaker 2: all bol Build because I had to shut my clinic
Speaker 2: because it was you know, face to face as many dermatology.
Speaker 2: So I just was able to you know, pivot and
Speaker 2: you know everyone was having skin breakout, stress, that sort
Speaker 2: of thing. So that was great. It's able to do vaccinations.
Speaker 2: It was what like you and I only bolk build.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was crazy time.
Speaker 2: It was crazy times. Do you work in the hospital
Speaker 2: at all now as a midwife, I don't, so full
Speaker 2: time in your own business.
Speaker 1: Oh I love hearing that. That's so awesome.
Speaker 2: And the majority of your work now is lactation consultancy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do see women anti anti natally. Most to
Speaker 1: the women who find me anti Natalie have a story
Speaker 1: around lactation. They're planning a head so they'll basically debrief
Speaker 1: like a birth debrief, like previous birth trauma, and then
Speaker 1: we plan ahead and we journey together. I know it
Speaker 1: sounds silly, but it's exactly what we do. And yeah,
Speaker 1: most of the people see me most Natalie. So it
Speaker 1: could be a real acute sort of urgent consult we
Speaker 1: pretty much need an emergency department for breastfeeding, or it
Speaker 1: could be someone who's you know, are not in an
Speaker 1: urgent situation.
Speaker 2: How many of the women you see, do you think
Speaker 2: have had some form of trauma with first Bobby.
Speaker 1: I guess there's so many versions of trauma, But in
Speaker 1: terms of their journey and finding their own voice as
Speaker 1: a mum and knowing how to trust themselves, most would
Speaker 1: have some version of a tough time. Maybe not trauma,
Speaker 1: A lot of trauma a lot, but yeah, a lot
Speaker 1: of tough times because of how they're treated in the system,
Speaker 1: how they have to navigate. I call it an obstacle
Speaker 1: course to get to the other side of just knowing
Speaker 1: what they think and feel and their version of it
Speaker 1: is really valid and almost always or I would go
Speaker 1: as far as saying always right. They're always right.
Speaker 2: So they just didn't trust their art with that listened.
Speaker 1: To a lot of the time, a lot of the time.
Speaker 2: So why do you think that is.
Speaker 1: I think we have a lot of subliminal messages around
Speaker 1: self sacrificing as mothers. I think we don't even realize
Speaker 1: that as women. I see it on such a basic
Speaker 1: level where it's like a woman will come to me
Speaker 1: with absolutely shredded nipples. She's in so much pain, but
Speaker 1: she's gritting her teeth through it. She's she's doing it
Speaker 1: for baby, and you know, good on her, amazing, but
Speaker 1: also that or latch is going to affect her milk
Speaker 1: supply eventually, and that's going to be a problem for baby.
Speaker 1: Does that make sense? And if she knew that, that
Speaker 1: would be a catalyst for her to care about her experience,
Speaker 1: but she won't do it for herself. So getting the
Speaker 1: women I see to care about their own experience, because
Speaker 1: it inevitably ends up being important, is a massive part
Speaker 1: of my job.
Speaker 2: How do you get the message out to women that
Speaker 2: it's not normal to have nipples falling off your chest
Speaker 2: when you're breastfeeding, or trust your guard if you think
Speaker 2: there's something wrong with your baby, yeah, when Bobby's in utro,
Speaker 2: or you know, it's okay to ask the questions or
Speaker 2: get a second opinion, Like do we how do you
Speaker 2: go about educating.
Speaker 1: Women if I have an opportunity to see them antiinatally,
Speaker 1: we'll do a lot of talking about that. Certainly, you know,
Speaker 1: we will reflect on where they've been when they come
Speaker 1: to me and say, there's been a lot of people
Speaker 1: saying that looks like a good latch, and they're showing up,
Speaker 1: you know, in a lot of pain trying to latch.
Speaker 1: Then you know that is a conversation around why that
Speaker 1: matters beyond it just being for baby, It actually is
Speaker 1: important for her irrespective of her supply. How we get
Speaker 1: that message out is we support them so they know
Speaker 1: what's normal and that normal isn't meant to be. It's
Speaker 1: not easy. No one would say motherhood, pregnancy, birth, breastfeeding, parenting,
Speaker 1: the whole shebang. It's not easy, but it shouldn't be
Speaker 1: a self sacrificing journey. And I guess I'd really love
Speaker 1: to say the women mothers partners valuing what the work
Speaker 1: we do as mothers, because it is work. You know,
Speaker 1: it's a lot of hard work that goes into raising
Speaker 1: and providing and supporting and being present and doing the
Speaker 1: things that are required biologically even for our children. But yeah,
Speaker 1: having the space and the time and the value in
Speaker 1: the support network around it, whether it's the system or
Speaker 1: just the community, is essential.
Speaker 2: Do you think social media has been a good or
Speaker 2: bad thing for women's health in some aspects or for
Speaker 2: breastfeeding or do you think.
Speaker 1: It puts.
Speaker 2: Pressure on mothers. I know I've had many moms come
Speaker 2: into the clinic, you know, in tears or going, oh
Speaker 2: my god, you know this so and so's posted this
Speaker 2: perfect lunch box on Instagram, you know, and you know,
Speaker 2: put a little note in it and da da da. Now,
Speaker 2: I know there were sometimes where my kids were lucky
Speaker 2: to have lunch, or I just threw five bucks at
Speaker 2: them as if for God say go get touch shop.
Speaker 2: When I was working and starting a business and doing
Speaker 2: you know, all that sort of thing, and there was
Speaker 2: huge guilt around that, but there was no social media
Speaker 2: at that stage, so I didn't have to compare myself
Speaker 2: to anybody else. Yeah, do you think that impacts mothers? Now?
Speaker 2: Did they talk about that?
Speaker 1: I think there's I think it's such a grief when
Speaker 1: they feel they should breastfeed and they feel social pressure too,
Speaker 1: and for whatever reason they can't. It's enormous and so
Speaker 1: much unnecessary shame. I see some women navigate all of that.
Speaker 1: I think social media is rble for it. World Breastfeeding Week.
Speaker 1: Ask anyone who's ever had breastfeeding challenges how triggering that
Speaker 1: week is. It's awful, but that's the world we live
Speaker 1: in as well. You know, there's no one size fits all.
Speaker 1: I think social media is just a bit toxic in
Speaker 1: many ways, but hey, I'm on it and it's not
Speaker 1: you know, we've just got to go go into that
Speaker 1: just so carefully when we're vulnerable. But yeah, I think
Speaker 1: the messaging around motherhood and the shoulds and all of
Speaker 1: that really doesn't have good foundations of support. I think
Speaker 1: some of the information that's on there is misinformation, totally, totally. Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: the Pinterest version of motherhood just doesn't exist. It's awful,
Speaker 1: and I think, like I said, it's a bit of
Speaker 1: an obstacle course, it really is. Some women, I'd say
Speaker 1: they're almost set up to fail in the system because
Speaker 1: there's just no continuity of care post natally. You know,
Speaker 1: we kind of have this normalized system of continuity of
Speaker 1: care through pregnancy and birth if women choose it, which
Speaker 1: research would say it's gold standard, that's got all these
Speaker 1: understood benefits. But post Natalie, you've got to six weeks
Speaker 1: with someone that you trust, that knows your journey, and
Speaker 1: then it's like good luck, and it's just begun.
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, that's just because it's long.
Speaker 1: It's a long road ahead, and yeah, some of the
Speaker 1: issues are just starting.
Speaker 2: So when I had my son at the marta easy
Speaker 2: delivery two weeks in breastfed like a champion. Two weeks
Speaker 2: in he stopped feeding. We had a month in hospital
Speaker 2: the Marter Private Children's would he was nato gastrically fed.
Speaker 2: Then they took the tube out and he started nuzzling,
Speaker 2: so we got electation consultant in because I still had
Speaker 2: milk at the stage. Nuzzled for a bit and then
Speaker 2: stopped feeding again, so then was nose gastricly bed again.
Speaker 2: And this sort of went on and off for twelve months.
Speaker 2: The kid didn't sleep for three years. And when I
Speaker 2: say that he didn't sleep, I'm actually I believe him.
Speaker 2: I'm not exaggerating. He did not sleep. It was easy
Speaker 2: for me to go to a night duty and it
Speaker 2: was for him. I remember one morning I just was
Speaker 2: at the end of my tether and I went down
Speaker 2: to the Maternal and Child Health Center at win Them
Speaker 2: even before it opened with this kid screaming and sat
Speaker 2: on the doorstep far out crying like I was a mess.
Speaker 2: I hadn't slept. I had a kid that just wouldn't eat,
Speaker 2: didn't a drink. No one knew it was wrong with him.
Speaker 2: The numerous tests, one stage they thought he had neurological problems.
Speaker 2: They just no one knew it's a big deal. So
Speaker 2: back then losek could just come onto the market. That's
Speaker 2: all they could think. It was was this silent reflux.
Speaker 2: It was really bad, but they they couldn't see it.
Speaker 2: So I used to have to give my half a
Speaker 2: tablet low second and liquefiret in water and squirted down
Speaker 2: the back of his threat. It was horrendous and look,
Speaker 2: that helped a bit, but not really, so I ended up.
Speaker 2: I begged to go into Riverton and I said to her,
Speaker 2: you gotta do something now, I'm a donkey on the edge.
Speaker 2: And I was. I was a donkey on the edge,
Speaker 2: and they put me in for a week. The first
Speaker 2: twenty four hours I just slept and they looked after Jacob.
Speaker 2: But even after a week there they could not get
Speaker 2: that kid. They were able to get him to sleep
Speaker 2: during the day, at least for a couple of hours.
Speaker 2: So my whole day was around getting my two year
Speaker 2: old to sleep or eighteen months to sleep at the
Speaker 2: same time as Jacob, so I could lie down and
Speaker 2: have a rest in the middle of the day. And
Speaker 2: if that didn't happen, it was horrendous. But what was
Speaker 2: interesting during that time, so many people going, well, you
Speaker 2: doing this wrong, and you're doing that wrong, and you
Speaker 2: just need to let him cry it out and you
Speaker 2: just need to do this. And you know, it was
Speaker 2: the most horrendous time. And I look back now and
Speaker 2: there's no doubt in my mind I've probably had postnatal depression.
Speaker 1: Who wouldn't.
Speaker 2: He's the most beautiful, beautiful young man now. But I
Speaker 2: tell you what, I could have thrown him in the
Speaker 2: rubbish bin. And I think about all those women who
Speaker 2: don't have support and who don't know where to turn.
Speaker 2: And I mean, are there places like Riverton still.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's support, but that fact that's horrendous.
Speaker 2: It was horrendous.
Speaker 1: What changed did he get?
Speaker 2: I had to feed him solids literally from three months
Speaker 2: of age. We just started to introduce solids after he
Speaker 2: stopped being nooser gastrictly fed. Yeah. Wow, And that in
Speaker 2: itself was problematic, and that in itself paused huge comments
Speaker 2: from people that just should have minded their own business.
Speaker 2: But you know, I had to take medication to dry
Speaker 2: my milk up. It was just awful.
Speaker 1: That's really full on.
Speaker 2: It was awful. And I think about other women, and
Speaker 2: I just go, wow, you know, I had support.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and look, it's to really diverse how complicated things
Speaker 1: can get. That's refect, But yeah, I see a lot
Speaker 1: of really complex cases and it's tough when you're you know,
Speaker 1: babies are born to breastfeed, right, so if there's an
Speaker 1: issue with that, it's like I like to put my
Speaker 1: detective glasses on and be figuring out the why behind it,
Speaker 1: you know, like your story, I'm just like, why, Jacob,
Speaker 1: what was going on there? You know? But unfortunately we're
Speaker 1: not all singing from the same hymn sheet. So you
Speaker 1: can have support, but your caliber of understanding biological norms
Speaker 1: and breastfeeding so you know, it is completely different from
Speaker 1: health care provider to health care provider. So a pediatrician,
Speaker 1: a midwi flactation consultant is going to all have completely
Speaker 1: different lenses on a tricky case of diad, a mother
Speaker 1: baby diad, And it's hard because it means you end
Speaker 1: up with conflicting advice and it's just a mind field
Speaker 1: for the poor mom that's trying to listen to her
Speaker 1: intuition while just desperately do whatever for their baby. The
Speaker 1: most vulnerable you'll ever be is then Oh my god, yes,
Speaker 1: it's full on.
Speaker 2: It is so full on. And you know, the one
Speaker 2: thing I remember from that is this is why I
Speaker 2: say to people who are bored or don't know what
Speaker 2: to do, go, do you go and volunteer some time
Speaker 2: at a hospital or natal center or birthing center or somewhere.
Speaker 2: Because there used to be this lovely man that used
Speaker 2: to older gentlemen that used to come in and he
Speaker 2: would sit with Jacob so I could go and have
Speaker 2: a shower because Jason was working and he also had Chloe.
Speaker 2: My parents were running a farm. Jason's parents were away
Speaker 2: like everyone had stuff on, you know, and he used
Speaker 2: to come in and sit with Jacob so I could
Speaker 2: have a shower, go grab a coffee of five minutes
Speaker 2: to myself, and then come back up. And he I
Speaker 2: don't know what it was. He just would come in.
Speaker 2: He just kept coming in and to this stay, I
Speaker 2: couldn't even tell you his name, but his kindness has
Speaker 2: stayed with me, and Jacob's what twenty four now, it
Speaker 2: has stayed that gentlemen's actions have stayed with me. And
Speaker 2: it was just, you know, he was just feeling his day.
Speaker 2: But I used to look forward to him coming in
Speaker 2: special and he always you know, he showed up, and
Speaker 2: then when I was back in hospital, he came back again.
Speaker 2: To this day, I very grateful to that gentleman.
Speaker 1: Yeah, look, I think we kind of understand the power
Speaker 1: of how we treat women in labor and that well
Speaker 1: hopefully we understand that. Certainly midwives do. We know that.
Speaker 1: You know now that there's been an inquiry in birth
Speaker 1: trauma and women are reporting that it stays with them
Speaker 1: and they, you know, are reporting how awfully it feels
Speaker 1: when they're that vulnerable and not treated with respect and
Speaker 1: left in the driver's seat post Natalie, Hey show up
Speaker 1: for a vulnerable mum who's still you know, still birthing
Speaker 1: to some degree, You're still you're still birthing yourself as
Speaker 1: a mother. You're still you're still in it. You know.
Speaker 1: It's like birth's the wedding day, but breastfeeding, all the
Speaker 1: post need, all the first two years is the marriage.
Speaker 1: It's a big deal how people treat moms and families
Speaker 1: and that's phase. So yeah, like, I agree, I agree.
Speaker 2: I I make a point now if I see a
Speaker 2: mum that's a bit of a donkey on the edge
Speaker 2: herself and a screaming child, and everyone's looking at them like, go,
Speaker 2: oh gosh, I can I will go over now, and
Speaker 2: because say, hey, do you need a hand?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I promise I'm not the creepy person, But do you
Speaker 2: need a hand?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, because they don't need someone to sit. We you know,
Speaker 2: we're embarrassed as enough as it is, and we you know,
Speaker 2: no people are judging us because Lord knows, there's no
Speaker 2: tolerance anymore in our society. Totally, you know, they just
Speaker 2: need to be of kindness and maybe just a little
Speaker 2: help totally.
Speaker 1: And you know, it hasn't all been sunshine rainbows in
Speaker 1: my own journey. I've had my I've had significant lactation challenges. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I you know, I feel like it's such a
Speaker 1: privilege to be able to support women in journeys that
Speaker 1: I have also been through, been on, And I really
Speaker 1: get it. You know, it doesn't really matter how much
Speaker 1: you know or how many books you read. Sometimes there's
Speaker 1: just an experience that the cards you get dealt can
Speaker 1: be tough, and how you get supported to deal with
Speaker 1: the cards you dealt is the game changer.
Speaker 2: So did you have feeding issues with one or all of.
Speaker 1: You all of them, all of them and really different,
Speaker 1: and really it's just interesting. I'd say, I'm still on
Speaker 1: the journey of learning as as I go as a practitioner.
Speaker 1: It's just such a rabbit hole oral function what shows
Speaker 1: up in breastfeeding and how that is connected to suck
Speaker 1: swallow bris than moral function, as.
Speaker 2: In, we're talking down the track down the speech, yes,
Speaker 2: like that speech palette teeth and god, I'm not a dentist,
Speaker 2: but like the influence of how functional and how well.
Speaker 1: A baby breastfeeds or uses their tongue, whether they breastfeed
Speaker 1: or not is a big deal, is a really big deal.
Speaker 2: Interesting. I well, I didn't know that, But now that
Speaker 2: you say that, it actually makes complete con sense.
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, and I didn't even know that. I didn't
Speaker 1: know that. As a midwife early years as a lactation consultant,
Speaker 1: I guess the goalposts were a healthy baby that's growing well.
Speaker 1: You know, someone coming to me for lactation support, it's
Speaker 1: like exclusively breastfeeding if that's what they want, A mum
Speaker 1: that's comfortable, a baby that's growing well, and you know,
Speaker 1: that's obviously great goals to have. But now I know more,
Speaker 1: I can see more and do more. And it's actually
Speaker 1: oral function, and it's such a great lens to see
Speaker 1: things from because you know, mouth breathing and hear those
Speaker 1: throat issues can show up via breastfeeding dysfunction because it's
Speaker 1: oral dysfunction. Not that I know all the answers, but
Speaker 1: I can certainly recognize when there's a problem better now
Speaker 1: that I know it. But anyway, going back to my
Speaker 1: own journeys, yeah, they're all very, very different. My son,
Speaker 1: my nine year old, has a tongue tie that was
Speaker 1: never treated and he grew beautifully, but you know, laid
Speaker 1: down the track, different sort of issues around his mouth.
Speaker 1: Do you wish you had a pad for him? I
Speaker 1: do only but can you do it now? Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1: We'll need to expand his palette first to fit the
Speaker 1: tongue in his palette, but yeah, we can absolutely do that.
Speaker 1: But the reason why I wish I did it is
Speaker 1: not because like he's fine, there's no major issues going
Speaker 1: on for him. It's that I worked really hard to
Speaker 1: breastfeed him. I normalized the abnormal and self sacrificed.
Speaker 2: Okay, so you're speaking from experience when you're talking very
Speaker 2: much just you know, just got on with it, and
Speaker 2: you know, we got there, but it was hard. And
Speaker 2: how long did you feed him for?
Speaker 1: It was hard to win? Two and a half years? Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then my daughter, she breast refused at three four months.
Speaker 1: We managed to somehow continue and then she continued breastfeeding
Speaker 1: until she was like three, but there was lots of
Speaker 1: gut issues there. She had cow's milk, protein intolerance, blood
Speaker 1: and her who full blown refusal, like your milk is
Speaker 1: poison kind of behavior, so full on, And I really
Speaker 1: my heart goes out to every mother I've ever looked
Speaker 1: after with breast refusal because I can just I know it.
Speaker 1: I know, and it actually hurt soul of it so
Speaker 1: much because it just really highlights the primal hormones behind
Speaker 1: breastfeeding the whole and just that part of life. Like
Speaker 1: you hear baby crying, you're just in your body is
Speaker 1: telling you to do something and you're in battle with
Speaker 1: your baby. It's just such a nervous system explosion.
Speaker 2: So did you develop anxiety? Did you feel yourself getting anxious?
Speaker 1: I was absolutely anxious, but I helped, you know, I
Speaker 1: held too much in. I think I've learned the hard
Speaker 1: way that it's really important to seek support. I wasn't
Speaker 1: very kind to myself. I did get support, but I
Speaker 1: expected so much of yourself. Yeah, I thought I had friends,
Speaker 1: well meaning friends say if anyone can figure it out,
Speaker 1: it's you, which was a compliment but also just not
Speaker 1: what I needed. I needed someone to say, you're a mom,
Speaker 1: You're not a lactation consultant right now, like you need support. So,
Speaker 1: you know, three am kind of phone call to a
Speaker 1: friend saying, if my baby won't feed. Who was breastfeeding
Speaker 1: at the time, You're my girl. I kind of knew
Speaker 1: I was in deep water with the situation, but we
Speaker 1: got there, and yeah, it was. It was just such
Speaker 1: a lesson in so many things, but also a lesson
Speaker 1: in like you can go through hard stuff and it's
Speaker 1: a very dynamic journey. It doesn't last forever these incredibly
Speaker 1: challenging times, whether it's breast refusal or not sleeping for
Speaker 1: two years, which one hundred percent trumps are that's insane.
Speaker 1: So yeah, that is my daughter, and then my youngest
Speaker 1: is really my wild card. He has really given me
Speaker 1: just like endless humble pie, and we're still on a journey.
Speaker 1: He still breastfeeds. Actually he's healthy, well but has significant
Speaker 1: allergies like he's anaphylactic to dairy Oh my goodness. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and was just like covered an exma as a baby. Yeah,
Speaker 1: just a really complex gut situation. He had a tongue tie.
Speaker 1: I didn't treat it. He was growing beautifully. He had
Speaker 1: that done it three and a half. So you know,
Speaker 1: lots of lessons santis hereditary. Are they all familiaral Yeah,
Speaker 1: so there is a level of genetics behind it. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And midwives can study to do tongue tie procedures.
Speaker 1: They can. There's not many that do, but it's generally
Speaker 1: a pediatric dentist. It's one hundred specialty within a specialty.
Speaker 1: Incredibly controversial topic. It is incredibly as we talk about.
Speaker 2: I think we leave that one alone. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: you pick your battles, even in podcasting, and you know what,
Speaker 2: I don't want to go down that at all.
Speaker 1: But yeah, lots of eyes wide open in terms of
Speaker 1: like to treat or not to treat. And there's no
Speaker 1: perfect answer. And I've had my own journey with that
Speaker 1: and very different experiences with each child. So same person,
Speaker 1: different baby, and it's completely different journey.
Speaker 2: Can I ask I suppose a bit of a controversial
Speaker 2: question to you, did you ever consider just going, Okay,
Speaker 2: this is all too hard, I'm going to bottle feed?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had a very memorable moment with
Speaker 1: my sister who I was telling her how my daughter
Speaker 1: was rest refusing and she could see it was like
Speaker 1: time to talk about lines in the sand, and she said,
Speaker 1: would you think about just expressing and bottle feeding her?
Speaker 1: And at that point in time where I was, wasn't
Speaker 1: an option. And I have learned from that like that
Speaker 1: wasn't very nice to myself. It was really expecting so
Speaker 1: much of myself to get through that. And I absolutely
Speaker 1: take that into how I care for women that there
Speaker 1: is no like sprint at things. We can tap out
Speaker 1: and have a little bit of grayness to honor your
Speaker 1: own journey and get through it. But yeah, I thought it,
Speaker 1: but I didn't do it.
Speaker 2: And how did you respond to your sister in that moment?
Speaker 1: I said, stop, Yeah, I wasn't. She knew, she was
Speaker 1: just kind of she was worried about you. She was
Speaker 1: very worried about me, and I don't think I received
Speaker 1: help very well.
Speaker 2: So do you think that's a nursing and midwife thing?
Speaker 2: I truly think it is.
Speaker 1: It's kind of sad to say it out loud, really,
Speaker 1: because that's what I offer, you know, So it's like,
Speaker 1: come on me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sorry when you said that, I'm just just like, yes,
Speaker 2: I've said that to myself so many times.
Speaker 1: Yeah, come on, bickie, Yeah yeah, yeah, yes, I do
Speaker 1: think it's a nurse midwife things. My favorite families will
Speaker 1: look after healthcare professionals. We are.
Speaker 2: We beat ourselves up terribly.
Speaker 1: We have some really cruel expectations of ourselves and midwives.
Speaker 1: My god, we're out of OSCO practice past six weeks. Like,
Speaker 1: stop expecting to know everything about children. It's just really
Speaker 1: important we put mum hats on.
Speaker 2: I'd really love your advice on how mums and showed
Speaker 2: some tenderness to themselves. You know, new mums, you're about
Speaker 2: to have a baby, your post bubba and you know
Speaker 2: you're trying to breastfeed. What is the number one thing
Speaker 2: you tell your beautiful patients to come and see you
Speaker 2: or mums that see you.
Speaker 1: I like to tell them anti natally, you know, and
Speaker 1: who knows their journey to get to that point. Sometimes
Speaker 1: just to get pregnants. Yeah, full on. So there's all
Speaker 1: of that, but they're usually sitting there fairly heavily pregnant,
Speaker 1: wondering what lays ahead. And I will say, you know,
Speaker 1: you're probably popping an eyelash right now. Babies growing a
Speaker 1: tone out and we're not even thinking about it. You're
Speaker 1: just doing it. And there's a miracle inside your body
Speaker 1: and we're just taking that for granted. But then once
Speaker 1: that person becomes two people and we have to support
Speaker 1: that grow that baby on the app side, suddenly there's
Speaker 1: this loss of trust often for their body being able
Speaker 1: to do it. So I'd like to try and tell
Speaker 1: them to imagine that it goes from there to here,
Speaker 1: and it's just you know that they they're the source.
Speaker 1: So if they can look after themselves and bring the
Speaker 1: baby heart to heart and just take a few breaths,
Speaker 1: they generally know what to do. But really just getting
Speaker 1: a mom to understand, like they she grew it, she
Speaker 1: made a human and it's incredible, absolutely, Like if that's
Speaker 1: not enough, what is.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, I've never that just gave me use because
Speaker 2: it's so true, isn't it.
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: We put so much else on it, and yet what
Speaker 2: a miracle.
Speaker 1: We make humans. We can do anything.
Speaker 2: My God, I love that. Yeah, I couldn't agree with
Speaker 2: you more. Thank you so much, my pleasure,