WEBVTT - Australia’s definitely-not-secret deal with Nauru

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, I want to move on to NHRU.

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<v Speaker 2>Prime Minister, this deal with the Naruan government for the

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<v Speaker 2>cohort of asylum seekers that you haven't been able to

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<v Speaker 2>do much with out.

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<v Speaker 3>Of the Let's start with this deal that was signed

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<v Speaker 3>between Australia and NARU. What do we know about it?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So we first heard about this deal through a

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<v Speaker 1>post on the Home Affairs website about a week ago.

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<v Speaker 1>It was late on a Friday night, basically just saying

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<v Speaker 1>that the Home Affairs Minister had been over there had

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<v Speaker 1>signed a deal that will involve Australia paying Nharu a

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<v Speaker 1>sum of money in exchange for a group of asylum

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<v Speaker 1>seekers that are currently in Australia receiving thirty year visas

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<v Speaker 1>to go live and stay live in the community in Nuru.

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<v Speaker 1>So at the time when it was announced, we didn't

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<v Speaker 1>have a whole lot of information about it. The actual deal,

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<v Speaker 1>the memorandum understanding wasn't revealed to the public and we

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<v Speaker 1>saw kind of ministers and the Prime Minister batting away

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<v Speaker 1>questions about it.

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<v Speaker 2>Why so much secrecy around that deal?

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<v Speaker 4>Toadley's secret. You're just asking me about it on national deal?

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<v Speaker 2>You know I will contest that there was no release

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<v Speaker 2>put out. It was quite little website. Well, well, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>it was out there, and it was wasn't easy to find.

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<v Speaker 1>Albanezy was asked about and kind of just talked about

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<v Speaker 1>complexities and details without revealing much.

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<v Speaker 4>There's complexities and detail here, including the number of people

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<v Speaker 4>who go. There's arrange or provisions as part of.

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<v Speaker 1>It, particularly in terms of how many people were going

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<v Speaker 1>to be taken by NRU.

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<v Speaker 2>So do they get the four hundred million even if

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<v Speaker 2>they take no asylum seekers?

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<v Speaker 4>There are arrangements in place, Patricia, And we have an

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<v Speaker 4>arrangement between.

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<v Speaker 1>How the payments would actually work and whether the payments

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<v Speaker 1>were kind of based on how many people were there.

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<v Speaker 2>Like does it just keep going or is it a timeframe?

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<v Speaker 4>No, it doesn't, Patricia. And it's an arrangement between our

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<v Speaker 4>government and the No Rule government.

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<v Speaker 2>But will you make the details of the payments clear

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<v Speaker 2>for how long they get seventy million a year?

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<v Speaker 4>It's an arrangement between It's not government and No Rule

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<v Speaker 4>government and it's.

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<v Speaker 1>And then we found a lot more information at a

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<v Speaker 1>send inquiry last week that revealed the actual financial cost

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<v Speaker 1>of this deal. So we found out there's an upfront

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<v Speaker 1>payment that's going to be more than four hundred million

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<v Speaker 1>dollars going to NAURU once the first person is deported

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<v Speaker 1>from Australia to NAHRU, and then also payments of up

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<v Speaker 1>to seventy million dollars per year after that. So the

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<v Speaker 1>whole deal over the thirty years is worth potentially two

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<v Speaker 1>point five billion dollars. There's huge amounts of money going

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<v Speaker 1>towards NARU in order to take some people from Australia

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<v Speaker 1>on thirty of visas.

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<v Speaker 3>Prominence to Anthony Albanezi insists the government's deal with the

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<v Speaker 3>RUE wasn't secret, even though key details only emerged after

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<v Speaker 3>it was signed. At the same time, Parliament has passed

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<v Speaker 3>laws to speed up the path to sending people off shore,

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<v Speaker 3>stripping them of their fundamental rights and protections during the

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<v Speaker 3>deportation process. I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven

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<v Speaker 3>AM today Stenham Sadler and the former immigration detainees Australia

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<v Speaker 3>is desperate to deport and whether offloading into n RU

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<v Speaker 3>is a breach of our legal obligations. It's Monday, September eighth.

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<v Speaker 3>Can you tell me more about the group that this

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<v Speaker 3>arrangement is targeted at. This is a group of former

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<v Speaker 3>immigration detornees that were released in the community in twenty

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<v Speaker 3>twenty three year.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so this stems back to the High Court decision

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<v Speaker 1>from November twenty twenty three, so is the n z

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<v Speaker 1>YQ case.

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<v Speaker 4>The High Court has tonight revealed all seven of its

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<v Speaker 4>judges agreed in definite immigration detention is unlawful.

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<v Speaker 5>They're surprised to see, yew.

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<v Speaker 1>These are people that were in immigration tension, but they

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<v Speaker 1>were never actually going to go back to their home countries,

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<v Speaker 1>so they were basically in indefinite detention and it was

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<v Speaker 1>ruled that Australia can't do that, so they have to

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<v Speaker 1>be released.

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<v Speaker 5>Over thirty five pages ruling imprisonment was penal or punitive

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<v Speaker 5>that could only be used by courts a judging and

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<v Speaker 5>punishing criminal guilt, claiming detention pending removal was legal as

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<v Speaker 5>long as removal through deportation was possible.

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<v Speaker 1>So I think all up, there's about three hundred and

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<v Speaker 1>fifty people that are caught up in that group, and

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<v Speaker 1>basically over nearly the last two years, it's been a

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<v Speaker 1>huge political problem more than anything for the government. The

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<v Speaker 1>oppositions kind of targeted a lot and blamed the government

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<v Speaker 1>for these people being out in the community. And there's

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<v Speaker 1>been a lot of rhetoric around the danger of these

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<v Speaker 1>people being out in the community and I think the

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<v Speaker 1>fear that if any further crimes happen that it'll be

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<v Speaker 1>blamed on the government too.

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<v Speaker 6>The Opposition is calling on the Prime Minister to sack

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<v Speaker 6>his Immigration minister immediately following revelations he was warned about

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<v Speaker 6>a controversial direction that has allowed foreign born criminals to

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<v Speaker 6>stay in Australia.

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<v Speaker 2>Anthony Albaneze needs to stop running a protection racket for

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<v Speaker 2>Minister Giles and to start protecting.

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<v Speaker 1>The Australia because what he is doing to Australia is

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<v Speaker 1>quite quite scary, and that's why the Prime Minister should

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<v Speaker 1>show leadership and second.

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<v Speaker 4>But he's not and I think that is but I.

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<v Speaker 1>Think it is important to note not all of them

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<v Speaker 1>have done crimes as well, but the people that have

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<v Speaker 1>served a full prison sentence, if they were Australian citizens,

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<v Speaker 1>they'd be in the community like normal and people are

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<v Speaker 1>released every day for similar crimes normally, and it's not

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<v Speaker 1>a big political issue. The only different thing here is

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<v Speaker 1>these people are non citizens.

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<v Speaker 3>You mentioned last week DNA that we learned a bit

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<v Speaker 3>more about the arrangement when Home Affairs officials appeared before

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<v Speaker 3>a Senate committee. Particularly, we learn a fir bit about

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<v Speaker 3>the price tag. What are the questions did they face.

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<v Speaker 1>There was a lot of kind of questions about the

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<v Speaker 1>amounts of people that would be accepted, and part of

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<v Speaker 1>the deal was nu taking everyone in this cohort, and

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<v Speaker 1>it was kind of a real that it's not it's

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<v Speaker 1>still kind of neuru's discretion to issue these visas to people,

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<v Speaker 1>so it's not necessarily going to take that whole cohort.

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<v Speaker 1>The memorandum of understanding that was signed last week YEP specified.

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<v Speaker 6>The number of individuals.

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<v Speaker 5>It is an agreement pursuant to the provision in the

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<v Speaker 5>Act to consider.

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<v Speaker 7>Applications from the Australian Government for people in this cohort,

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<v Speaker 7>and for NAURU to grant visas pursuant to that based

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<v Speaker 7>on their decision about whether they would. So there's no figure,

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<v Speaker 7>so they could take zero, they could right.

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<v Speaker 1>You found out a bit about how the payments will work.

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<v Speaker 1>That was obviously the big question, and I think people

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<v Speaker 1>were very shocked to find out it can be up

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<v Speaker 1>to two point five billion dollars. You kind of had

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<v Speaker 1>David Pocock saying it was bonkers.

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<v Speaker 3>Just like, I just want you to know, like the

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<v Speaker 3>people out there, this sounds totally bonkers, right, like nuts.

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<v Speaker 4>Like this is an extraordinary amount money.

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<v Speaker 5>We all know it's expensive to house people, but I.

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<v Speaker 1>Think people genuinely really surprised that it was this much

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<v Speaker 1>money going to this very tiny nation to take a

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<v Speaker 1>group of people that is about kind of yeah, three

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<v Speaker 1>hundred people, And often it is the finalantial side that

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<v Speaker 1>gets across people more than the human element. There's a

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<v Speaker 1>very real human element here. But I think getting that

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<v Speaker 1>figure has helped people be a bit more outraged by

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<v Speaker 1>it than they were just when we found out there

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<v Speaker 1>was a deal in place.

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<v Speaker 3>And this deal is being paired with new legislation that

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<v Speaker 3>expands Australia's deportation powers. Those laws passed the set at

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<v Speaker 3>the end of last week. So what exactly do these

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<v Speaker 3>new powers entail and how do they relate to this

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<v Speaker 3>new arrangement with the route.

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<v Speaker 1>Therese are pretty extraordinary new powers, and that legislation that

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<v Speaker 1>recently pass serves to constrict the rights to natural justice

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<v Speaker 1>to this group of people in Australia, which is basic

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<v Speaker 1>rights in the criminal justice system that have been taken

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<v Speaker 1>away from these people. This horrific, monstrous bill.

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<v Speaker 2>You've never seen us people of color, migrants of color

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<v Speaker 2>as equals.

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<v Speaker 1>There's been huge backlash from a range of human rights groups,

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<v Speaker 1>refugee advocates, and legal organizations about this plan to deport

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<v Speaker 1>people and around the stripping of these really basic and

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<v Speaker 1>fundamental rights.

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<v Speaker 7>Australia's immigration regime is so brutal that even Trump points

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<v Speaker 7>to it and said that's a good idea, we should

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<v Speaker 7>do that too.

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<v Speaker 1>There's concerns around these powers the government have given themselves to.

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<v Speaker 1>You can be deported based on a decision that was wrong,

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<v Speaker 1>and then the pact government has the power to kind

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<v Speaker 1>of overall that, and they've taken away all your avenue

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<v Speaker 1>to appeal as well. The government have kind of justified

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<v Speaker 1>by saying that a lot of people are using procedural

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<v Speaker 1>fairness to kind of slow the process. I think these

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<v Speaker 1>exact words was kind of to frustrate their removal, to

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<v Speaker 1>delay things, and I think the government has been frustrated

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<v Speaker 1>by court proceedings around this. But that's also how it's

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<v Speaker 1>meant to be functioning. So it's a lot of people

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<v Speaker 1>being removed these basic rights to kind of speed up

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<v Speaker 1>the process, I think is basically the aim, and to

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<v Speaker 1>get people out of Australia as quickly as possible.

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<v Speaker 3>So what's the problem that the government is trying to

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<v Speaker 3>solve for you? I mean, what do they think the

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<v Speaker 3>process needs to be split up and that essentially these

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<v Speaker 3>groups should have their legal rights denied. It's pretty extreme.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think it's just basically been that political problem

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<v Speaker 1>that they've had since these people were ordered to be

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<v Speaker 1>released by the High Court's kept popping up every time

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<v Speaker 1>there has been another crime committed by someone that was

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<v Speaker 1>released as part of that decision. It's become another political

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<v Speaker 1>issue and it's just not going away. And I've tried

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<v Speaker 1>it's almost been a bit of kind of a whack

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<v Speaker 1>a mole game with the courts. They've tried a few

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<v Speaker 1>other things. They've tried electronic monitoring, they've tried getting people

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<v Speaker 1>back in immigration detention, and it keeps either getting knocked

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<v Speaker 1>back or stalled by the courts. So I think they're

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<v Speaker 1>just looking a way to really completely wash the hands

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<v Speaker 1>of these people and this issue and send them off

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<v Speaker 1>to another country. Actually on visas, So it's really out

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<v Speaker 1>of Australia's hands.

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<v Speaker 3>Coming up what life on Naru will look like for

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<v Speaker 3>this group. And you've been reporting on australia official immigration

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<v Speaker 3>detension for some time there and you've examined what life

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<v Speaker 3>is actually like on l Arue for this group who

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<v Speaker 3>will be sent there. They will have visas, the right

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<v Speaker 3>to work, freedom of movement. So what can you tell

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<v Speaker 3>me about what life might be like once they arrive.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so Nuru is a tiny nation. It's about twelve

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<v Speaker 1>thousand people, and there's a lot of poverty and the

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<v Speaker 1>cost of living is extremely high. Basic bedgears, bottled water

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<v Speaker 1>is very expensive. It's not an easy place to live.

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<v Speaker 1>So there still are about one hundred asylum seekers in

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<v Speaker 1>offshore processing on Naru at the moment, and they obviously

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<v Speaker 1>are under different conditions, and this cohort will be they

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<v Speaker 1>don't have the right to work and other rights like that.

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<v Speaker 1>But I'm in contact with some of those people and yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>they just describe it extremely hard to get buy over there,

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<v Speaker 1>and a lot of them are going without three meals

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<v Speaker 1>a day. And they also say that people are very

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<v Speaker 1>aware of what's happening with this deal. They're aware of

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<v Speaker 1>who these people are and who the government have kind

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<v Speaker 1>of described them as being too. Obviously, a big part

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<v Speaker 1>of this is these people being described as dangerous and appalling,

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<v Speaker 1>and there are people in the script that haven't even

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<v Speaker 1>committed a crime, but there's been a lot of rehtric

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<v Speaker 1>about just how dangerous they are. And now you're kind

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<v Speaker 1>of sending them off to a very small country to

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<v Speaker 1>just live amongst the community. You can see a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of issues with that, and issues with finding work as

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<v Speaker 1>well to survive when you've kind of been described like

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<v Speaker 1>that by the big government nearby. Can see a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of issues around that.

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<v Speaker 3>So what kind of support will they have once they

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<v Speaker 3>arrive and in your estimation, does have the ability to

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<v Speaker 3>support them?

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<v Speaker 1>We don't know a lot of detail about the support

0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:35.520
<v Speaker 1>on office, similar to a lot of things about this deal.

0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:38.520
<v Speaker 1>We do know that some chunk of the payments Australia

0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:42.720
<v Speaker 1>sending is going directly to the new government to support

0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:45.520
<v Speaker 1>these people, but beyond that we don't know. There have

0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:47.840
<v Speaker 1>been huge problems in the past with a lot of

0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:50.520
<v Speaker 1>the huge amounts of money that are in the immigration

0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:54.280
<v Speaker 1>detention system over there being misused and corruption issues, so

0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:57.439
<v Speaker 1>there's always going to be ongoing concerns around that, and

0:11:57.679 --> 0:12:01.240
<v Speaker 1>it's just a very low social economic country that will

0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:03.280
<v Speaker 1>struggle with a new group. I think there's about one

0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:06.280
<v Speaker 1>to four people in Nuru live below the basic needs

0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:09.920
<v Speaker 1>poverty line. Already. Healthcare is a massive concern. There's have

0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:13.480
<v Speaker 1>been ongoing issues in Australia with bringing people onto mainland

0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:17.320
<v Speaker 1>Australia who need medical treatment, bringing asylumn seekers. There's not

0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:21.160
<v Speaker 1>really established healthcare offerings there and I think there's already

0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:24.240
<v Speaker 1>existing problems and you're bringing potentially hundreds of new people there.

0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:26.480
<v Speaker 1>I think there's huge concerns about being able to support

0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:27.079
<v Speaker 1>them properly.

0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:30.319
<v Speaker 3>And what sort of questions does this phrase about Australia's

0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:33.679
<v Speaker 3>obligations to these people. Australia won't resettle them, but they

0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:35.960
<v Speaker 3>also can't return them to the country of origin for

0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:38.679
<v Speaker 3>fear of being harmed. So do we still have a

0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:42.160
<v Speaker 3>responsibility for their welfare even if Australia offloads them to

0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:43.120
<v Speaker 3>a third country.

0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:45.880
<v Speaker 1>I think it's a great question and I think it's

0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:48.439
<v Speaker 1>one that will be tested because I think Australia will

0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:50.760
<v Speaker 1>very much argue that they don't after this. I think

0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:54.600
<v Speaker 1>they'll say they've satisfied their obligations by finding a new

0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:56.720
<v Speaker 1>country for them to live in. They've on a visa

0:12:56.920 --> 0:12:59.480
<v Speaker 1>for thirty years, they've got rights to work. But I

0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:02.160
<v Speaker 1>think there's a very strong argument that Australia does have

0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:05.439
<v Speaker 1>a responsibility. We forcibly sent them over to this very

0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:08.600
<v Speaker 1>small nation. There is some obligation there, and it's as

0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:10.440
<v Speaker 1>part of a deal where we're sending a lot of money.

0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:11.760
<v Speaker 1>So I think there are going to be a lot

0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:13.959
<v Speaker 1>of arguments that Australia does still have a very strong

0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:17.800
<v Speaker 1>responsibility for their welfare. We're kind of following the rules

0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:20.360
<v Speaker 1>around non refilment, so we can't send them back to

0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:22.920
<v Speaker 1>a country they're going to face persecution, and that's why

0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:25.360
<v Speaker 1>they found a fix in terms of Nuru and paying

0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:27.600
<v Speaker 1>a country to take them. But I think that just

0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:30.480
<v Speaker 1>raises massive questions about the responsibility of Australia, and I

0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:32.920
<v Speaker 1>think they're quite likely to be tested in some way

0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:37.800
<v Speaker 1>or another. I think it raises really important questions about

0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:41.160
<v Speaker 1>the prison system as well. I think people and have

0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:43.640
<v Speaker 1>served their prison sentence. Every day people are coming out

0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:45.880
<v Speaker 1>of prison having done worse crimes, and a lot of

0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:47.920
<v Speaker 1>people in this group and that scene is okay, but

0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:51.120
<v Speaker 1>for some reason it's different, purely because these people come

0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:54.480
<v Speaker 1>from different countries. So I think Australia has an obligation

0:13:54.600 --> 0:13:58.080
<v Speaker 1>to help with the rehabilitation and reintegration sort of process

0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:00.640
<v Speaker 1>with these people rather than just off showing them to

0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:02.520
<v Speaker 1>a different country and washing our hands.

0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:06.400
<v Speaker 3>Danim, thank you so much for your time.

0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:08.079
<v Speaker 1>Thanks having me.

0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:26.040
<v Speaker 3>Also in the news, Victoria police say the stabbing deaths

0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:28.920
<v Speaker 3>of two boys aged twelve and fifteen has all the

0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:32.200
<v Speaker 3>hallmarks of a youth gang crime. The two children were

0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:34.920
<v Speaker 3>found dead in cobble Banking, Malven's West over the weekend.

0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:38.280
<v Speaker 3>Victoria Police say the alleged attackers fled the scene in

0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:41.600
<v Speaker 3>a yet to be identified vehicle armed with machetes and

0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:45.200
<v Speaker 3>edged weapons, and is urging anyone with information to come forward.

0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:49.320
<v Speaker 3>And police in the UK have arrested hundreds of demonstrators

0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:53.240
<v Speaker 3>over the weekend under Britain's anti terror legislation. More than

0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:56.040
<v Speaker 3>four hundred people were arrested on Saturday at a rally

0:14:56.120 --> 0:14:58.880
<v Speaker 3>in London in support of the activist group of Palestine Action,

0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:02.600
<v Speaker 3>many over the age of sixty. It's the latest round

0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:05.320
<v Speaker 3>of the tensions of supporters of the pro Palestine group

0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:07.840
<v Speaker 3>since it was banned by the UK as a terrorist

0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:11.320
<v Speaker 3>organization in July after some of its members broke into

0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:15.240
<v Speaker 3>a Royal air Force base and damaged military planes. This

0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:17.760
<v Speaker 3>has been seven am. Thanks for listening. We'll be back

0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:18.200
<v Speaker 3>tomorrow