1 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business Interview. I'm Sean Almer. 2 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: We have spoken a bit on Fear and Greed about 3 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: private credit, but not a lot about listed investment trusts 4 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:17,159 Speaker 1: focused on private credit. Certainly there is a surge of 5 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 1: interest in private credit as investors go in search of 6 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 1: higher returns. Last week, MA Financial Group listed its first 7 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: listed investment trust focused on private credit. I wanted to 8 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: take a closer look at it and lt is generally 9 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,520 Speaker 1: how they work, how investors should think about them, where 10 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 1: they might fit into an investment strategy. Also the pros 11 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,520 Speaker 1: and cons of listed investment trusts as a way into 12 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: private credit. Remember this is general information only. You should 13 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: always seek professional advice before making investment decisions. Frank Dannielli 14 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: is the Managing Director, head of Credit, Investments and Lending 15 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:52,520 Speaker 1: ATMA Financial Group, a terrific supporter of this podcast. Frank, 16 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to Fear and Greed. 17 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 2: Suan, great to be here. 18 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: Let's start with a one oh one on listed investment 19 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: trusts and then we'll go into why you're focusing on 20 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: private credit. 21 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 2: Sure, well, listed investment trusts are basically a fund that 22 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:10,320 Speaker 2: is listed on the AX and so what it enables 23 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 2: people to do is to buy and sell units in 24 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 2: that fund the same way they can buy and sell 25 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 2: units in a company. 26 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:21,040 Speaker 1: Okay, And then that list investment trust has a bunch 27 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: of assets or a style of asset that it invests in. 28 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:25,639 Speaker 1: So in this case we're talking private credit. 29 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 2: Is that right? That's right. In the case of m 30 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 2: A one, it's private credits the underlying assets. And so 31 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 2: instead of owning a piece of a company, what you 32 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 2: own is a unit, a piece of participation in a 33 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:39,119 Speaker 2: fund that does in this case private credit. 34 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: So one of the underlying assets you're talking about is 35 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:44,040 Speaker 1: if I got to and buy an M one unit 36 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: on the AX, I'm interested in what private credit? So 37 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: what the managers of it are investing in? So what 38 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: are you investing in? Yeah? 39 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 2: So M one provides exposure to what we call our 40 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 2: flagship private credit strategies. So we about five and a 41 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 2: half billion dollars a private credit out of ten billion 42 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 2: in total assets under management. About four billion of that 43 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 2: capital we run in private credit. Is what we call 44 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 2: our flagship strategy. So that there are most established, prominent 45 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 2: strategies and that's what MAY one participates in. So may 46 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 2: One's not it's a new way to access those fights, 47 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 2: but it's not new per se. These portfolios have been 48 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 2: going around, been operating for a long time, and so 49 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 2: that's what investors get exposed to it. So there's one 50 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 2: hundred and sixty five loans in the book of about 51 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 2: that four billion dollar odd underlying portfolio. It's across sixteen 52 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 2: different segments of lending, so it's really diverse fied across 53 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 2: a lot of things. What it is at the highest 54 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:39,079 Speaker 2: level in private credit, what is it really? Private credit 55 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 2: is just it's a loan, a private loan that is 56 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 2: made directly by a fund manager on behalf of the 57 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 2: fund to and nd a borrower. And it's just not 58 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 2: a bond or it's not a loan that's on a 59 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 2: bank balance sheet. That's really what it is. It sounds 60 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 2: probably more complicated than what it actually is. The specific 61 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:01,079 Speaker 2: types of private credit we do. One we do really 62 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,079 Speaker 2: three things. So direct asset lending, which means we make 63 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 2: a loan, see you secure it against like a physical asset. 64 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 2: To think about real estate credit and imagine there's a 65 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 2: building over there We've go and to make a loan 66 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 2: to it, an apartment building, for example, and we generally 67 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 2: try and do that at a pretty sensible loan to 68 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 2: value ratio. Similarly, we might make a loan directly to 69 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 2: a company. It's the same kind of thing as a 70 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 2: company over there. We go and make a loan scene. 71 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 2: You're secured to it, so we're seen. You're in the 72 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 2: capital structure to the equity. You know, if your listeners 73 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 2: are familiar with shares, we're senior to the shares. 74 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: Where it all goes wrong, that you get paid before 75 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: the equity holders get paid. 76 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 2: That's the idea of lending, you know. We like to 77 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 2: say our philosophy is that credit's about avoiding losers and 78 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 2: not picking winners. When we make a loan, we will 79 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 2: put one hundred dollars out of the door. We want 80 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 2: to get one hundred dollars back with high probability, and 81 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 2: we want to receive the interest that we're entitled to 82 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 2: along the way again with a very high probability. We 83 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 2: want to borrow that can service those loans. It's basically 84 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 2: the way we think about what we're doing, and we 85 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 2: want to make sure we're not the meeting sandwich shown 86 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 2: as you say, if things do go. 87 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: Wrong, okay, so I interrupt you there they say, there's 88 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: type of loan which is curreit against real estate or 89 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: against an asset. There's a direct loan. What's the third one. 90 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 2: The third one we call asset backed lending. And so 91 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 2: this is basically where we finance a whole portfolio of loans, 92 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 2: and we generally do it ourselves, providing a capital to 93 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 2: finance those large portfolios of loans in partnership with a 94 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 2: bank and a specialist lender. So this can be in 95 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 2: areas like we did certain types of home loans. Think 96 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 2: about say self managed super funnel home loans, for example, 97 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 2: it would be car loans, business loans, asset finance, so 98 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 2: things are a bit more specialized, like receivals finance, this 99 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 2: asset based finance. I just think about it as basically 100 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,840 Speaker 2: real world economy lending. You know, it's just lending all 101 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 2: those things that I mentioned there that I'm sure this 102 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 2: is are pretty familiar with, is providing finance in the 103 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 2: real world economy and doing in a way where it 104 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 2: makes the most sense that it's done not just by 105 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 2: a bank directly out to a customer, but actually by 106 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 2: a specialist lender that then needs to get capital from 107 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 2: a credit fund like us and maybe actually be a 108 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 2: bank as well. 109 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: And do you discount any particular sectors or any particular 110 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: credit grades or anything like that. 111 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 2: Look, we do. I mean, we've put a lot of 112 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 2: day one information about the portfolio here. We do a 113 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,359 Speaker 2: whole bunch of risk grading on an ongoing basis about 114 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 2: the credit quality and all that sort of thing. We 115 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 2: do a lot of analysis and stress testing of our portfolios. 116 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 2: You know, we do this thing twice a year we 117 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:27,039 Speaker 2: call wargames, or we basically this huge stress testing exercise 118 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 2: of our portfolio. We talk about that. So we're doing 119 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 2: all those kinds of things. And you asked a question, 120 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 2: I guess, Sean, do we discount certain types of lending? 121 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 2: We think that when you're lending, what's really happening here 122 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 2: in why private credit's emerging is that there's just these 123 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,360 Speaker 2: areas of lending where banks aren't the efficient provider of 124 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 2: capital either anymore or ever. And that's what you're sort 125 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:50,359 Speaker 2: of lending into that space, and you have to think 126 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 2: the way a bank would and the way a bank 127 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 2: thinks is they think about what their portfolio is exposed to, 128 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 2: and they might want to lend more in a certain 129 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 2: sector at a given time and less in others. There's 130 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 2: different relative value or different performance characteristics, and I think 131 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:06,479 Speaker 2: it's incumbent on being a private credit manager that you 132 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:08,840 Speaker 2: have to do the same. So we spend a lot 133 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 2: of time on portfolio management and thinking about what sectors 134 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 2: we want to be in and not want to be in, 135 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 2: and where we're leaning into and where we're not. I said, 136 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 2: we've got sixteen different subsegments of lending in this portfolio today. 137 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 2: We're always we're adjusting things all the time. 138 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: Okay, Frank, stay with me. We'll be back in a moment. 139 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: I'm speaking to Frank Dannielli from MA Financial Group. Okay, 140 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:38,159 Speaker 1: so in a sense before the break, we've talked about 141 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 1: the ins and outs of your listed investment trust focused 142 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: on private credit m one on the exchange. Firstly, what 143 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 1: are the upsides for investors in doing it via a 144 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: listed investment trust as opposed to a manage fund or 145 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 1: something like that. 146 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 2: The key difference is basically that you can buy and 147 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 2: sell units on the exchange and so it has a 148 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 2: different liquidity profile. So for investors where that's really important, 149 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 2: where for the ability to actually buy sell a unit 150 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 2: is important, then they can do that and they can 151 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 2: participate on the exchange. Obviously, we already run on a 152 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 2: series of private meaning unlisted credit funds today and they 153 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 2: will just have different liquidity characteristics where timing that you 154 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 2: can get in and get out relative to what a 155 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 2: listed fund can do. 156 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 1: What are the downsides of investing in private credit? Well, 157 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: the upsides and downsides. Why has there been an explosion 158 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: of it to begin with? And certainly people are rushing 159 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 1: towards it. They have been rushing towards it enough for 160 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: the regulator to say, hold on, I'm just going to 161 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: keep it up. We need to keep an eye on this. 162 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: So I'm just interested in the upsides and then the downside, 163 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: the risk. 164 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, look, the fundamentals of credit generally is credit 165 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 2: should be boring. And so the idea of credit is 166 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 2: I told you I was going to pay you out 167 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 2: in the case of m what your cashtright plus four 168 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 2: point two five percent or you know, eight point three 169 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 2: five percent per annum. And really what you want in 170 00:07:56,000 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 2: credit is you just get that the equity party in 171 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 2: portfolios where you should be experiencing growth and those sort 172 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 2: of things. Compound returns. Credit is just about ideally being 173 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 2: boring as you can. Why are people investing in private 174 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 2: credit though, I think it is people do want a 175 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 2: part of their portfolio where you have yield, you know income, 176 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 2: it's an income part of the portfolio. Now, Historically people 177 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 2: would do that. Think about a traditional sixty to forty portfolio. 178 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 2: People would get the income defensive component from bonds, which 179 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 2: traditional fixed income. What private credit really is is just 180 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 2: an alternative to that where you can participate in this 181 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 2: thematic I mentioned that's going on where there's emergence of 182 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 2: these areas of lending where private funds can be a 183 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 2: more efficient lender in certain parts of the market, and 184 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 2: investors are participating in that because they like the premium, 185 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:50,679 Speaker 2: they get the step up in return that you generally 186 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 2: get by doing that activity relative to traditional fixed income 187 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,839 Speaker 2: like bonds, and that's really been the attraction. I think 188 00:08:57,880 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 2: what's also happened is that there's been a bit of 189 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 2: a democratisation of this space. The way that you can 190 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:05,559 Speaker 2: participate has opened up. There's many more ways now to participate, 191 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 2: and listed investment trusts are a good example where it's 192 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 2: opened up to just you know, more people because it 193 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 2: is on the asx than what you Traditionally have is 194 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 2: used to be the domain of very very large institutions, 195 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 2: and over time there's just more ways to access it. 196 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 2: The same thing's happening actually in other parts of market, 197 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 2: like in private equity, and so there seems a real 198 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 2: dynamic emerging, and we really believe in it that there's 199 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 2: just going to be a part of people's portfolio where 200 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:31,839 Speaker 2: they're happy to say, you know what, maybe I need 201 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 2: a little bit either less liquidity or I can trade 202 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 2: something off and I can get a premium return, and 203 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 2: that's what they're doing. 204 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's sort of sixty forty ideas seems to be 205 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 1: going the way of the data or a bit the 206 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: hybrid market. At the moment, banks are pulling out of 207 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 1: it because of new regulations, but we're seeing corporate hybrids, 208 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:51,079 Speaker 1: certainly private equity. You mentioned private credit. It just seems 209 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: that there are lots of different instruments opening up to 210 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: high networth individuals, family officers, retail investors that were never 211 00:09:58,679 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 1: there before. 212 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, you know a lot of people do talk 213 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 2: about the death of the sixty forty portfolio. My strong 214 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 2: view is that actually sixty four is a really good 215 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 2: way to manage your portfolio. It's just that what's in 216 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 2: the sixty and what's in the forty needs to change. 217 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 2: And that's because there are these really big now private 218 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 2: markets that have opened up, and the ability to participate 219 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 2: in those can be quite attractive for investors. The other thing, 220 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 2: and you mentioned Sean there, that there's just different ways 221 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 2: to access it to it's important. What's something like a 222 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 2: listed investment trust demonstrates is that these two markets can 223 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 2: actually converge, you know, public and private markets can actually 224 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:35,680 Speaker 2: work together and work together pretty well. 225 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:37,439 Speaker 1: Frank, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 226 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 2: Thanks Sean, it's been great. 227 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: That was Frank Danney Ellie, Managing director ahead of Credit, 228 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: Investments and Lending at MA Financial Group, a great supporter 229 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: of this podcast. This is the Fear and Greed Business Interview. 230 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: Remember this is general information only and you should see 231 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 1: professional advice before investing. Join us every morning for the 232 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:55,559 Speaker 1: full episode of Fear and Greed. Daily business news for 233 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: people who make their own decisions. I'm Sean A. Elmer. 234 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,719 Speaker 2: Enjoy your day.