Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life, the average person is never
Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: In part two of my chat, we've retired Detective Senior
Speaker 1: Sergeant Darren Edwards. We talk about how he became an
Speaker 1: Internet sensation, his involvement in the arrest of Daniel Morkham's
Speaker 1: killer Brett Cowen, other murder investigations he was involved in,
Speaker 1: and he's time working as an investigator on the War crimes.
Speaker 1: We talk about a lot of things, all related to policing,
Speaker 1: and as you will hear Darren is the type of
Speaker 1: detective you want on your case. He's one of the
Speaker 1: good guys. Darren. I was going to wait till after
Speaker 1: or towards the end of this part two to show
Speaker 1: you this, but I can't help myself and I want
Speaker 1: to get it out now, so I thought stuff it.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm a detective. If you're a detective, you
Speaker 1: know you prepare for the interview room, and consider this
Speaker 1: an interview room. I'm now going to play you Exhibit A,
Speaker 1: and I want you to comment on that. After I've
Speaker 1: played this. You're not obliged to say anything or do
Speaker 1: anything unless you wish to do so. But whatever you
Speaker 1: say or do may later be used in evidence. Do
Speaker 1: you understand that I understand that? Okay, Exhibit A or there's.
Speaker 2: Damage there, I'm not one hundred percent on that.
Speaker 1: Yes, you were you cover the cover? All right, Darren?
Speaker 1: Where do I start with that? What we just witness there?
Speaker 1: I'll describe what I saw and then you can offer
Speaker 1: explanation and remember your under caution here and if you
Speaker 1: if you're listening to this and you want to watch
Speaker 1: Darren's classic tackle, go to the Eye Catch Killer's YouTube
Speaker 1: channel and you can see it. You're in the middle
Speaker 1: of a live TV interview and the commotion you hear
Speaker 1: in the background is someone running. Obviously app's been up
Speaker 1: to no good. You, in a split second have turned
Speaker 1: looked process and decided to launch yourself in what I'd
Speaker 1: say is as a state of origin style tackle and
Speaker 1: just belted this blake into the ground. You tell That's
Speaker 1: what I observed, Darren. I still to this day think
Speaker 1: it was one of the most impressive pieces of police
Speaker 1: I've ever seen, and also one of the most funniest.
Speaker 1: Talk us through what happened there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I think it was a bit of a
Speaker 2: like a natural type of reaction, Like I played football
Speaker 2: for many years and it's someone's running, and you know,
Speaker 2: what are you going to do? And he could have
Speaker 2: gone past, And like it was only split second before
Speaker 2: I actually tackled him. I realized who he was because
Speaker 2: you come and interrupted that press conference which was about
Speaker 2: a fraud matter, I think by memory earlier and anyway,
Speaker 2: But to me, it was just like instinct, Like it's
Speaker 2: not all that clear, but when I was listening, when
Speaker 2: I was doing the interview, I could hear this comments
Speaker 2: from the father in the background to work before you
Speaker 2: can really hear it on the mics. I could hear
Speaker 2: what was going on in the background, and then all
Speaker 2: of a sudden, you've got an offender running. And it
Speaker 2: was just an instinct, to be honest, I'm just going
Speaker 2: to stop this guying old tackling. That's the only way
Speaker 2: I know. It was always tackled away. I was very,
Speaker 2: very fair type of footballer girl. I was tackled like anyway.
Speaker 2: So that's how it happened. But as I said, even
Speaker 2: you play it from the whole thing. He'd come and
Speaker 2: interrupted the press conference earlier.
Speaker 1: How dare you interrupt your press conference?
Speaker 2: And I realized he had a few issues and anyway,
Speaker 2: he because I remember looking at his charge sheet and
Speaker 2: I realized he got out of court or whatever, and
Speaker 2: I had a look at his charge. When you see
Speaker 2: he charges, you know that makes sense. You're a public nuisance.
Speaker 2: But I didn't realize it was the same guy until
Speaker 2: I was just about.
Speaker 1: Exactly as you're flying me there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, I suppose I'm just there
Speaker 2: in my suit and I hadn't been footy training for
Speaker 2: a while, and he's running and I'm going to tackle him,
Speaker 2: and it's funny. I had the blood you notice on
Speaker 2: my head was I'd actually had a couple of sun
Speaker 2: skin cancers burned off only a day or so before,
Speaker 2: so all the blisters. So when my skin rubbed on
Speaker 2: his pants or tackling, that's what that That's what that was.
Speaker 2: I mean, I didn't hurt myself or anything, and I
Speaker 2: haven't that There was a garden bed there they cleaned
Speaker 2: out in front of that. It was kind of on
Speaker 2: the edge of that. And I know I had dirt
Speaker 2: and mud on the back of my suit. And I
Speaker 2: even took the suit the dry cleaners. They wouldn't charge me.
Speaker 2: I wanted to do it and take fart as of
Speaker 2: the suit. It was quite funny.
Speaker 1: Well, a couple of questions that flow on from that.
Speaker 1: Did you go back to your press conference.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't finish the press I didn't think a lot
Speaker 2: about it, And you know, one of the bosses, uniform inspectors,
Speaker 2: we say, are you are right? So I just went
Speaker 2: and carried on my carroll on my day, you know.
Speaker 2: And then when I was finishing work, I walked out
Speaker 2: the front and Channel seven reporter, the main guy that
Speaker 2: did was doing the fraud conference. He's out the front
Speaker 2: and he suit with a tie on, doing this press conference.
Speaker 2: And I said him, what's going on? Is this something
Speaker 2: else going on? And he says, oh, I know today
Speaker 2: that's bigger than anything, you know. Really Anyway, I went
Speaker 2: home then I realized had a miscor from my sister
Speaker 2: who I went to her wedding in Italy years you know,
Speaker 2: a couple of years before. And then I got home
Speaker 2: my party said, so what happened today? Nothing really, just
Speaker 2: I don't think anything of it. I just sort there
Speaker 2: was some you know, some peanut run around upsetting, you know,
Speaker 2: and I do it does anyone that interferes or tries upset? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Attack or you know, I got two daughters. Women should
Speaker 2: able to go around the street with getting some grub,
Speaker 2: making comments about their short skirt and all the rest
Speaker 2: of it and things like that, which he was doing
Speaker 2: as I found out, and that, you know, whilst the
Speaker 2: father yelling out and something about the girl and a
Speaker 2: bloke running. That's enough for me. That was my brain
Speaker 2: reaction and a tackling. I just didn't realize it was
Speaker 2: going to have the effect that it did.
Speaker 1: Well, you're a very humble hum What I liked about
Speaker 1: it was the processing. You're clearly not a ditherer in police,
Speaker 1: because in policing we get a lot of people that
Speaker 1: dither a little bit. You in a split second or
Speaker 1: a millisecond said okay, offender running Darren, must tackle, and
Speaker 1: you've gone and you've launched yourself. The reaction after it,
Speaker 1: you went viral, and I think you end up doing
Speaker 1: conferences about your tackle and getting critiqued on your tackling side.
Speaker 2: I did. But I look, even one morning I had
Speaker 2: to do from Good Morning America some Prague in one
Speaker 2: morning because I remember this guy from the Territor and
Speaker 2: he won't mind me saying his name, Hughsy Jeff Hughs
Speaker 2: used to work in the territory, used to smash men tennis.
Speaker 2: But anyway, he's a very fit, tall where he's lived
Speaker 2: in the States for years. Anyway, he's saying I got
Speaker 2: stuff from him on Facebook and he saw that morning program,
Speaker 2: and you know, they just loved that. They said, I
Speaker 2: know this guy, but it's just wol I just couldn't
Speaker 2: believe it. But the main point I was sorry I
Speaker 2: was getting out was that that should be a copper's
Speaker 2: reaction for someone who's hassling some female on the street
Speaker 2: that that should be the reaction. I heard enough I
Speaker 2: processed in my mind and for him running, he was,
Speaker 2: I don't play grabs, you I never played grabs, and well,
Speaker 2: that's what I'm going to do tackling. You've chased enough offenders.
Speaker 2: You get talking to him, you know they're going to
Speaker 2: cut for it, and exactly and they can't run without legs,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: That's that's the and the state of origin hero. While
Speaker 1: we lewis critiquing your tackling, So what was his opinion.
Speaker 2: On I got a call from t GB mister Hadley
Speaker 2: having to talk about it, and then then he said
Speaker 2: to me, oh, by the way, Wally said, you got
Speaker 2: your head in the wrong place, and I thought, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I'm in my suitor. Wasn't It wasn't like
Speaker 2: a front rower running up to me in the line
Speaker 2: of defense, you know, tackling the sprinting Hungarian. And from
Speaker 2: the sides, I thought it had a pretty good job.
Speaker 1: If that's the only thing you ever achieved in your
Speaker 1: policing career, you could retire, retire happy because, as I said,
Speaker 1: I think it's a classic. I'm just going to ask
Speaker 1: this question. Do you joggers safe if they're running past you?
Speaker 1: Can you process it? You're not liking the tack dog.
Speaker 2: It's funny every now and I get comments and I'm
Speaker 2: walking recently and I was working in Brisbane. I was
Speaker 2: walking in the street and someone someone was running past,
Speaker 2: and I heard these guys talk me high and they
Speaker 2: turned about too young blake from homicide and they go,
Speaker 2: don't tackling, mate. It's funny, and then you get sized up.
Speaker 2: I remember like being in Dan Murphy's one day and
Speaker 2: I saw this guy was stalking me and he's a
Speaker 2: big kiwi guy and then he circles around and I've
Speaker 2: got my little basket full of wine and he comes
Speaker 2: up and he says, you're that guy, aren't you. I
Speaker 2: don't know if it was some offence or something. I said,
Speaker 2: that was a good tackle man, and then he just
Speaker 2: walks off. But you just don't know. And this is
Speaker 2: years later. It's funny how people recognize you what it is,
Speaker 2: but look at it. It gave people some enjoyment.
Speaker 1: Well, what I liked about it. It strips down the
Speaker 1: most basic thing. When you joined the cops, good versus evil,
Speaker 1: and you were the good guy you and there was
Speaker 1: a bad guy and bang it's done. Did you ever
Speaker 1: consider what would have happened if you missed the tackle?
Speaker 1: I'll point out, I wouldn't have you on the podcast.
Speaker 2: Our district superintendent, he said, and what if you had
Speaker 2: a missed And I said, that just made me feel sick,
Speaker 2: And I actually I wake up one night with Pat
Speaker 2: saying in my head, nothing I heard. This didn't happen,
Speaker 2: And yeah, yeah, no one would have wanted I would
Speaker 2: have been the laughing stock.
Speaker 1: You wouldn't. You wouldn't be here I have. I'd probably
Speaker 1: have Howard Hickey here instead.
Speaker 2: That's a fair, fair question. But well I'm glad that
Speaker 2: I didn't miss many tackles. I have to say for myself,
Speaker 2: I had a pretty good strike right as a forward.
Speaker 1: Good on you. You deserve to talk it up. But yeah,
Speaker 1: it was great and I think all jokes aside. I
Speaker 1: think it typifies the type of cop that you roll
Speaker 1: up your sleeves and just get in there and do
Speaker 1: your job. Okay, that's the lighthearted situation. I want to
Speaker 1: take us back to a crime that people all across
Speaker 1: Australia for me, with the abduction and murder of Daniel Morecambe.
Speaker 1: He was thirteen years of age at the time. We
Speaker 1: talked in part one about your involvement in locking up
Speaker 1: the person that was eventually convicted of Daniel Morcambe's murder,
Speaker 1: and he's currently in prison. You locked him up when
Speaker 1: you're working in the Northern Territory for a very serious,
Speaker 1: serious crime. He did his time in prison, got out
Speaker 1: and then it led to what happened to Daniel, which
Speaker 1: was horrific and I think it touched everyone in the country.
Speaker 1: Tell us about your involvement in that investigation, just from
Speaker 1: your observations and your involvement in it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, as I said, i'd come from the Northern Territory.
Speaker 2: I can remember getting old on the old computer system
Speaker 2: that was there at the time and putting his name
Speaker 2: because when he was arrested up in the territory, I
Speaker 2: knew come from Sunshine Coast area, so did I originally,
Speaker 2: and so I remember printing out where he lived and
Speaker 2: later on it did service that the information we got
Speaker 2: he driven pass, so he was connected there and that
Speaker 2: was when I was a homicide and I went up
Speaker 2: there working on that job for the time. As time
Speaker 2: went on, obviously went onto other investigations. But then later
Speaker 2: on in twenty eleven, I got the role there at
Speaker 2: the Sunshine Coast as ICSIB. Some work had been done
Speaker 2: progressing on him and as it turned out, they were
Speaker 2: able to get him back to the coast. And I
Speaker 2: think it was in Augut eleven. It was down in
Speaker 2: the forestry area or the bush area there and he
Speaker 2: was arrested.
Speaker 1: And the circumstances is coming there and I think people
Speaker 1: were aware of there was an undercover office credit involved
Speaker 1: in it, and you were hiding the bush or covertly
Speaker 1: in the in the bush. What was the purpose of
Speaker 1: Cohen going to that location?
Speaker 2: The covits have got him there because he was purportedly
Speaker 2: be part of this gang and ire worried that people
Speaker 2: knew who he was. So if he got some focus
Speaker 2: again on him, it would draw attention to that group
Speaker 2: he was mixing with supposedly criminal crime Green and they
Speaker 2: wanted some guarantees that was no there was no obvious
Speaker 2: remains going to be able to be seen or found.
Speaker 2: So he was coaxing going to that location. And he
Speaker 2: gave the indication there was an embankment and he'd said
Speaker 2: I tossed the boy over here.
Speaker 1: And so he was. He was actually showing where the
Speaker 1: cover place where the body body was. Daniel's body was.
Speaker 2: In the Glasshouse Mountains area there and as it turned out,
Speaker 2: decision was made to arrest him there on that spot.
Speaker 2: Later on a lot of good work by the SEES
Speaker 2: local a S has put amount of time into that
Speaker 2: area and the remains unfortunately, well fortunately or unfortunately were
Speaker 2: found of Daniel very quickly and that firmed up that
Speaker 2: he'd taken him there and it actually killed him in
Speaker 2: a small demandable. That demand of was actually gone, but
Speaker 2: it was moved and it was actually put behind another
Speaker 2: house in Landsborough that it was used being used, so
Speaker 2: it was of no forensic value by things have been
Speaker 2: cleaned out, repainting all the rest of it, but it
Speaker 2: fit in the scene and the fact he took them
Speaker 2: to that spot of acres of for him to be
Speaker 2: able to take to that spot and gay I chucked
Speaker 2: his body over there. It didn't take long to find.
Speaker 2: I think we found his skateboard shoes initially and there
Speaker 2: was some bones and that was happened fairly quickly, so
Speaker 2: that was good. But once you know it's funny to
Speaker 2: be it's not funny, but it's unusual for me to
Speaker 2: have been involved his arrest in nineteen ninety three, go
Speaker 2: to homicide and later on, oh I see there. It's
Speaker 2: a full circle manager for that supposedly for that job
Speaker 2: going on there a homicide, was running it and everything
Speaker 2: with the locals, detectives, and then being there when he's
Speaker 2: arrested that many years later for a climb and he
Speaker 2: talks about strangling him and that's what he did to
Speaker 2: that little boy and Matthew in Dahn. So it was
Speaker 2: a really unusual set of circumstances.
Speaker 1: How did it feel for you personally seeing him being
Speaker 1: arrested that all being present during his arrest for Daniels.
Speaker 2: I think a good outcome, you know, not the best
Speaker 2: outcome of the one of the sunback for the Morcambe,
Speaker 2: but we talked about earlier that's it brings an outcome,
Speaker 2: and when he was convicted, even better and all that
Speaker 2: information in the inquest come out about the incident of
Speaker 2: the territory. We were pretty annoyed that they hadn't run
Speaker 2: with charging with attempted murder and you know a lot
Speaker 2: of the guys said, you know, things might have been
Speaker 2: different if it had been serving eight to nine years
Speaker 2: for tempted murder in Darwin. Yeah, Daniel might not happen.
Speaker 2: It's a stretch of the bow, I know. But a
Speaker 2: lot of police they have that attitude and maybe the
Speaker 2: morcams do too. But at least there was some type
Speaker 2: of satisfaction that he was court convicted and Daniel's remains
Speaker 2: were like it And that's what I talk about. We
Speaker 2: talked about Jessica Goudy. That's the importance of finding those
Speaker 2: persons remains is very important for sure.
Speaker 1: Brett Town, how long was he sense? For what did he?
Speaker 2: He got sentence of life imprisonment and there's a lot
Speaker 2: of changes to her around life imprisonment now. But I
Speaker 2: could never I think they're recommendations. No, probably I could
Speaker 2: never see him ever getting pro.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh that's justifiable. It is a horrible, horrible crime.
Speaker 1: Denise and Bruce Malcombe, He's parents. They were tireless in
Speaker 1: trying to get justice.
Speaker 2: Weren't they They were?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and still heavily involved. And you see the toilet
Speaker 1: that takes on people like that. That's the nature of homicide.
Speaker 1: Have you got any cases and then you spend a
Speaker 1: long time in homicide cases that stick with stick with you.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I just think sometimes you come across case and
Speaker 2: they're just needless, like homicide, they're just needless. One people said,
Speaker 2: I was anything that stick in your mind that you
Speaker 2: saw that has an effect, and the one one does
Speaker 2: And it's a scene where you think this isn't real
Speaker 2: and it's a fairly simple scene. And I think it
Speaker 2: was two thousand and eight, and this is another needless murder.
Speaker 2: We're working on. An old guy. He was a truck
Speaker 2: driver from I think Twilma Dolby area. He retires. His
Speaker 2: interests is grayhounds. He buys his property near Kibulcher and
Speaker 2: it's got a kennel's for grayhand it's a bit of
Speaker 2: a training track. That's his hobby. His wife had died
Speaker 2: of cancer and I know in his bedroom he had
Speaker 2: his wife's favorite dress and it used to hang there
Speaker 2: every day. That's when he woke up he saw his
Speaker 2: wife's favorite dress. Anyway, how long story short, he bought
Speaker 2: this property. Unbeknown to him, a drug dealer used to
Speaker 2: own it beforehand and had secreted drugs in walls. These
Speaker 2: crooks go, they think the drug dealer is still there.
Speaker 2: Getting there cost him one of the fellows. I'll say
Speaker 2: his name. He's doing life for murder. Rocky Coombs shoots
Speaker 2: him in the head. Well, there was just needless. They
Speaker 2: had the wrong person. This pile man in his retirement
Speaker 2: doing his hobby, gets murder in his home. Now we're
Speaker 2: up there at Kucher working on that at the time,
Speaker 2: and it was New Year's I'm pretty sure it was
Speaker 2: Newye's day. Get a phone calls there looks like a
Speaker 2: kid's being murdered at Briby Island, which is down the Raid.
Speaker 2: And I go there and I go it's a house
Speaker 2: that was rendered for as a holiday house. I walk
Speaker 2: in the room the scenes of crime guy and what
Speaker 2: on the bed is this ten year old girl. She
Speaker 2: had all her hair hacked and cut back, and she's
Speaker 2: just laying there with a huge knife out of her chest,
Speaker 2: just lying there's still with this big knife and I'm
Speaker 2: looking at it and on scenes of crime and I said,
Speaker 2: it doesn't look real, you know. As it turned out,
Speaker 2: the father of that child had bad mental health issues
Speaker 2: and got caught later and murder. The girl had some
Speaker 2: you know, thinking she's a demon and all this type
Speaker 2: of stuff, but that you know, when you're doing a
Speaker 2: senseless murder. And then you get to see that within
Speaker 2: days later once we've sold it because we had sold
Speaker 2: the other one, and then you go and see that
Speaker 2: kid lying there with a knife of that, you think, well,
Speaker 2: what the hell is that? You know? And I suppose that.
Speaker 2: I don't think I've had a lot of things that
Speaker 2: affect me, but it's there's some things that I think.
Speaker 2: And then the other thing I did when I was
Speaker 2: in the territory, there was these people are being in
Speaker 2: a dobeman that was vicious and no one could get
Speaker 2: near that. It was like an acre block. They bamused
Speaker 2: and left this poor dog there was emaciated. RSPCA couldn't
Speaker 2: get near it. They were trying to dart it, but
Speaker 2: it was just too vicious, and then we had to
Speaker 2: shoot it. Not to shoot this dog dead, but I thought, well,
Speaker 2: assholes do that to an animal, you know, then the
Speaker 2: coppers have to come and shoot the porn Almy was
Speaker 2: doing nothing wrong. You know. It seems such a vast
Speaker 2: extremity of incidents that stick in your head, but it's bizarre.
Speaker 2: But there's things like that, and I one thing, it's
Speaker 2: if I see someone being cruel to a dog, I
Speaker 2: really stop and crop and if they don't stop, I'll
Speaker 2: say something. You know, it's funny, isn't it.
Speaker 1: It's funny things that stick with you. But the way
Speaker 1: that you described that, I underst seeing where you're coming from.
Speaker 1: Like with homicide, sometimes you get there, just deal with
Speaker 1: a job, but it accumulates and you think that's a
Speaker 1: waste of time. And I had I had periods of
Speaker 1: time in my career too when the fan and ring
Speaker 1: and you think, I don't want to go out and
Speaker 1: just see zee someone dead. But that that was the
Speaker 1: that was the nature of the work. You spent a
Speaker 1: long time in homicide. But then you went to yeah,
Speaker 1: well you've paid your dues because you've worked in some
Speaker 1: tough places. But you ended up on the Sunshine Case.
Speaker 2: I certainly as to get told I had the best
Speaker 2: job in Queensland.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I used to tell people that don't wait
Speaker 2: for the job to be advertised, you just locked yourself
Speaker 2: And I did. I spent I think ten nearly ten
Speaker 2: nearly eleven years.
Speaker 1: There And what was your what was your role there?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I was the IC in charge of the Sunshine
Speaker 2: Case CB. It's a pretty big area. You had CBS
Speaker 2: at Clownder and amble Roochie Door Nusa Kwana, so you
Speaker 2: had a big area and we had a good team
Speaker 2: and it's a busy place. It's a very busy, big
Speaker 2: tourist influx, but a very supportive community and I think
Speaker 2: that's still today. And that part of that media stuff there,
Speaker 2: I used to do it a lot because those young journals,
Speaker 2: that's their business. They need stuff. And I thought it
Speaker 2: was a good way to tell the community or here
Speaker 2: we've arrested this guy, or we need your help with this.
Speaker 2: This is an outcome. Please don't scams are happening. You know,
Speaker 2: I don't listen to these phone calls.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: It was a way of working with the community, which
Speaker 2: was as I said, was and I think it still
Speaker 2: is a good supportive community of police.
Speaker 1: So that was well. I think the media should be
Speaker 1: looked at as a tool that supports and enhances personally
Speaker 1: sending messages out, giving them warnings, giving the confidence that yeah,
Speaker 1: the police are on top of this. It's an important role.
Speaker 1: But the beauty of that position not it only is
Speaker 1: a good location, but you've got to keep your hand
Speaker 1: in criminal investigation and in part experits on people there.
Speaker 2: Look and look part of that, and I said, there
Speaker 2: was quite a You know, sexual offenses occur, happens in
Speaker 2: every community, but I just like to see an outcome
Speaker 2: for that as soon as possible. You know you're going
Speaker 2: to have sexual assaults, and some of them are through
Speaker 2: There wasn't a lot of sexual assaults like where people
Speaker 2: are just attack walking down the street, but you want
Speaker 2: them not to happen as well. And when we did
Speaker 2: clear up an older sexual assault matter through DNA for
Speaker 2: a sexual offender who was in jail in New South
Speaker 2: Wales and he'd also done one in South Australia, we
Speaker 2: managed to get him to clean him up and we
Speaker 2: talked earlier. We managed to transfer in prison to Queensland
Speaker 2: and get him to deal with But you know what,
Speaker 2: that's it brings an outcome, even after allmen of them years,
Speaker 2: there's an outcome for someone instead of them. I wonder
Speaker 2: what happened to that guy that did that to me,
Speaker 2: and then all of a sudden the outcome that must
Speaker 2: be better than nothing. And you use that as avention
Speaker 2: thing as well as Hey, these offenders are out there.
Speaker 2: And I used to go to meetings I was part
Speaker 2: of a team from the hospital nurses and to better
Speaker 2: support victims of sexual assault. And there was a very
Speaker 2: good supporting agency at the cost for counseling and what
Speaker 2: have you, but also as a brand new hospital Sunshine Case,
Speaker 2: and there was a designated area for examinations because obviously
Speaker 2: DNA is a very important evidence and the way it's
Speaker 2: collected and how the victims, that initial treatment of the
Speaker 2: victim is very important, and to try and get them
Speaker 2: in a facility where they don't have to sit in
Speaker 2: accident emergency exactly, and we can go on this prior
Speaker 2: to go a back entrance into the hospital in the
Speaker 2: A and E. And so I was part of the
Speaker 2: crowd that got that and make sure we get that
Speaker 2: support full of victims. As I said, I got two daughters,
Speaker 2: so it yeah, I just and I remember as a
Speaker 2: young Blake, if there was like a girl she was
Speaker 2: a bit intoxicated or something, and there lectures hanging around,
Speaker 2: and we used to protect them, you know. And I
Speaker 2: don't know if it probably does happen now with.
Speaker 1: Pim, but still I think it still happens.
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, But you know, I suppose that's just that's
Speaker 2: just me. What I grew up with that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're the values that's been still exactly the values
Speaker 1: that we all should have. With the one you were
Speaker 1: talking about the South Australia and New South Wales and
Speaker 1: the DNA. Talk us through that one. How were they linked?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a sexual solo that in a unit
Speaker 2: at Ruchie Door and I think look, I think it
Speaker 2: was about like nineteen ninety four or something like that
Speaker 2: when the database, you know, you started to develop around
Speaker 2: the national data they re random again and it came
Speaker 2: up and then we found out he'd gone to South
Speaker 2: Australian pleaded with some and they're very similar type of circumstances.
Speaker 2: And yeah, one of the detective sergeant and he did
Speaker 2: that before he retired. We really pushed that and he
Speaker 2: got that done and got him back. And because I'd
Speaker 2: done that, Eric Maray transfer. There's not a lot of
Speaker 2: coppers understand that Interstate Transfer of Prisoners Act exists, which
Speaker 2: all the states are signatures to. So I had all
Speaker 2: the reports about that, so he's able to follow that
Speaker 2: process because it's a bit daunting to some, but we
Speaker 2: managed to get it done and got him back and pleaded,
Speaker 2: you know, twenty something years later thirty years later, so's
Speaker 2: you can put the effort in still later and get
Speaker 2: a result.
Speaker 1: And it does help. So what other type of crimes
Speaker 1: are you dealing with on the Sunshine Case Because you've
Speaker 1: gone from the wild West in Northern Territory and then
Speaker 1: homicide and all the horror and things that homicide bring.
Speaker 1: We've talked sexual assaults on the Sunshine Case. What are
Speaker 1: the other type of contemporary Because you've been retired what
Speaker 1: two years now?
Speaker 2: I had to retire at sixty in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 2: I kept working, doing a bit of work, as you know.
Speaker 2: But the other thing then I think was a victim
Speaker 2: of technology. Some Shine Case twenty percent are probably over
Speaker 2: sixty five year old something like that. So we had
Speaker 2: a lot of older people. They're subjective scams and what
Speaker 2: have you. So that was a real focus and hence
Speaker 2: that what happened that day at the Tackle was about
Speaker 2: a fraud batter and it's prevention and trying to educate
Speaker 2: older people, especially who aren't that I failed. You know
Speaker 2: a lot of older people are they take people on
Speaker 2: face grant, they don't think everyone's coming with you, And
Speaker 2: I were thinking, this guy's talking to me. I don't know,
Speaker 2: I'll be thinking the words he's trying to scam me
Speaker 2: or rip me off or you know where people older
Speaker 2: people don't have that. No, they take everyone face well,
Speaker 2: that they're one.
Speaker 1: First. I've had conversations that weren't embarrassed with my mum,
Speaker 1: but they sounded very nice on the Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: And so a lot of that crime prevention was about that,
Speaker 2: and there was there was women there that got scammed
Speaker 2: romance schems. You know. One had been used to buy
Speaker 2: one hundred and thirty third thousand dollars land Cruiser and
Speaker 2: then they stopped another company. There was nearly a loss
Speaker 2: of a million dollars. They managed to intercept it. This
Speaker 2: woman had been news for that. She lost her car.
Speaker 2: But it's hard to once I go that far, it's
Speaker 2: hard to bring them back, you know, they just can't
Speaker 2: see it. And prevention is a big thing. So that
Speaker 2: was a big focus for me at the Sunshine Coast
Speaker 2: for sure.
Speaker 1: Okay, now you mentioned the sixty year retirement in Queensland place.
Speaker 1: We don't have that in New South Wales. I'm not
Speaker 1: sure other jurisdictions, but it's correct me if I'm wrong,
Speaker 1: Because our good mate Howard Hickey. He retired, but he
Speaker 1: went back and he could do some work. You could
Speaker 1: work part time. What's the process there. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: that's a great idea.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think it's coming back in there. There's
Speaker 2: a lot of Look recently, I was doing work in
Speaker 2: our ethical Standards area where it was just working in
Speaker 2: relation to staff members in discipline areas, so I had
Speaker 2: no powers of please, I did no criminal aspects. And
Speaker 2: how I'd actually got a job as an administration officer
Speaker 2: working in the cold case team and because they had
Speaker 2: knowledge of a lot of the old cases makes sense exactly.
Speaker 2: And for what you're going to be paid at that level,
Speaker 2: there's not a lot of money. And otherwise you're going
Speaker 2: to be paying detective sergeant a lot of money on
Speaker 2: shift work to do the same thing what Howard could
Speaker 2: have been doing as a And that was the idea
Speaker 2: about it, and I think they're starting to come around that,
Speaker 2: And certainly the Queen's and Police with ethic a Stands
Speaker 2: area have a staff member investigation group that focuses solely
Speaker 2: on staff members non criminal and the police don't have
Speaker 2: to be doing it.
Speaker 1: We've got a shortage of police across the country, And
Speaker 1: I always think, and I know you guys experienced the
Speaker 1: same thing and other jurisdictions, that the amount of non
Speaker 1: police work that you're actually doing recording keeping, records recorded,
Speaker 1: not records about the criminal investigation, but management type stuff.
Speaker 1: Or yeah, you're a homicide detective. I don't know about you,
Speaker 1: but as yeah, senior homicide detect if. I spent a
Speaker 1: lot of time in front of the failure copier because
Speaker 1: I had the failure copy of briefs because there was
Speaker 1: no one to fail their copy of brief Just a
Speaker 1: simple thing like that would free a lot of people up.
Speaker 2: Exactly. Like we talked about how Hickey liked doing his
Speaker 2: role there. He could go through an old file because
Speaker 2: he experienced he can do a summary to an investigator.
Speaker 2: Say that investigator reading it for two weeks and he
Speaker 2: can find all the old statements. He can find everything
Speaker 2: and put its important, there is some avenues here, or
Speaker 2: if some information come in, he would say, yeah, that
Speaker 2: information relates to this statement, all this statement, and it's
Speaker 2: cost effective and like you could do it. Like we
Speaker 2: talked about fraud briefly, a lot of stuff to do
Speaker 2: with fraud investigations could be done by a retired cop.
Speaker 2: You know, they need a serving cop on shiftwork to
Speaker 2: do that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, I'm with you, and I think that's we've
Speaker 1: got to move forward, have that flexibility because it's you know,
Speaker 1: people retire from the police and all that experience is lost.
Speaker 1: And yeah, Howard going through it a murder brief, the
Speaker 1: amount of experience he brings just there. Yeah, literally literally
Speaker 1: cases could get solved because you've got someone that knows
Speaker 1: what they're doing. There just a general question here with policing.
Speaker 1: Do you think the crooks have got the advantage or
Speaker 1: the cops have got the advantage in this DNA compared
Speaker 1: to when we joined.
Speaker 2: I think it was I think it's coming back around.
Speaker 2: We started to gain the advantage back around, Like the
Speaker 2: crooks start to get better represented and at our expense,
Speaker 2: and not that they're not entitled to it, but I
Speaker 2: don't think as some of those defense laws were thinking ahead,
Speaker 2: what's the best outcomeing we get for this guy? And
Speaker 2: just but we've got technology came around on our side, then,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean to it. I think they
Speaker 2: brought the advantage back around, not just DNA, but just technology.
Speaker 2: GPS's movement of phones and tracking and different things like
Speaker 2: that security, the security cameras everywhere that never used to
Speaker 2: be anywhere.
Speaker 1: I had an experienced defense list of the Greg Gould
Speaker 1: on the podcast recently and I was asking him because
Speaker 1: he'd been in the courts bashing up on cops for
Speaker 1: for the years and defend defending people. He said his observations,
Speaker 1: the world's changed a little bit in it in our
Speaker 1: early days in playing clothes, a lot hinged on what
Speaker 1: we said, what we saw, because that was the evidence
Speaker 1: that was presented to the court. So you spent a
Speaker 1: lot of time in the witness box. But he said
Speaker 1: police aren't spending as much time in the witness box
Speaker 1: because basically the brief is supported by forensic evidence, whether
Speaker 1: it be CCTV footage or telephone records that type of
Speaker 1: thing or the DNA. So it's changing face there, isn't.
Speaker 2: It it is? And look now if you have always
Speaker 2: a committal hearing, they've got to nominate why they want
Speaker 2: that winness to be cross examinle Whereas years ago I
Speaker 2: just expected we want him him and him, and yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, and you would. I've got an old murder
Speaker 2: case still from the Gold Cup Hugo Bench was murdered
Speaker 2: there in the nineties that we've charged an offender with that,
Speaker 2: and that's still ongoing. I'd been to a vard. I
Speaker 2: was there for two days in the box getting hammred
Speaker 2: by a barrister and I'm looking at the guys charged
Speaker 2: with that in the background like an idiot. But that's
Speaker 2: the way it is. But what I noticed to Gary,
Speaker 2: when you retire, you don't have to be so conforming
Speaker 2: to them. So I was, to be honest with you, I
Speaker 2: was given it back to this barrister because I wasn't
Speaker 2: copper his rubbish anymore, but copper anymore? What are they
Speaker 2: going to do to me? So that's still ongoing. But yeah,
Speaker 2: I think a lot of the time of the processes
Speaker 2: have changed and there's a lot of coppers now. Even
Speaker 2: detectives would have several years experience. You say, have you
Speaker 2: ever given everything a trial? And they go, no, I
Speaker 2: hadn't even been there.
Speaker 1: It scares me because unless you've been there, and then
Speaker 1: unless you've you've got the battle scars from the local
Speaker 1: court made and learning this box. Like I would see
Speaker 1: people go in where they haven't got the experience into
Speaker 1: a murder trial, and I think you Paul Barstards, you
Speaker 1: have no idea what you're about to walk into. And
Speaker 1: there's it's in theater. It's intimidation that's making you look
Speaker 1: at in front of in front of the jury. I
Speaker 1: think we've done away with committal hearings to the extent
Speaker 1: that in New South Wales, and I remember how much
Speaker 1: time it felt like you had two trials, didn't it
Speaker 1: because the defense would go for drag the committal out,
Speaker 1: make some more money, find the weakness in the police case,
Speaker 1: and then you'd be doing it again down the track
Speaker 1: in the trial a couple of years later. Now you
Speaker 1: didn't completely retire from policing or criminal investigation because you
Speaker 1: around the same time that you woul due to retire
Speaker 1: from Queensland, you got an offer or your approach to
Speaker 1: work on the war crimes investigation. I'm not sure how
Speaker 1: much you can say about that, but.
Speaker 2: I have got secrecy agreements with the old A special
Speaker 2: investigator was formed because of the Afghanistan. What I'm telling
Speaker 2: is this common knowledge in the media, and I was
Speaker 2: able to apply for a circondment, had to do an
Speaker 2: application selection interview and what have you, and I ended
Speaker 2: up going there in June which was about six or
Speaker 2: seven months before I was due to retire, So I
Speaker 2: took that as ayconoment, still working for Queensland Police and
Speaker 2: as I said, I was going to have to retire
Speaker 2: in the following January anyway, and that was good. So
Speaker 2: I did that for nearly three years. Interesting work. But
Speaker 2: it was more like because it was a homicide I
Speaker 2: had a homicide background as well. It was really murder
Speaker 2: investigations with specific limitations obviously, where it was what the
Speaker 2: evidence you did or didn't have, and things like that
Speaker 2: following that inquiry. But I still found it interesting. You know,
Speaker 2: I did cop a bit of flack off some people sometimes,
Speaker 2: you know about the fact that you were trying to
Speaker 2: essentially lock up our war heroes. Yeah, you got those
Speaker 2: and that's fair enough. I get that, And they didn't
Speaker 2: have an understanding of what it was about. Either side
Speaker 2: just took that on facevailue and didn't you didn't react
Speaker 2: to it. I got that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is a contentious issue, but it could be
Speaker 1: looked at in different ways. You're not trying to lock
Speaker 1: them up, you're looking at the CFA's evidence. Yeah, seeing
Speaker 1: where the truth lies could assist as much as it
Speaker 1: could could hinder, but yeah, I would imagine that it
Speaker 1: would polarize people and it would be a difficult thing.
Speaker 1: But you enjoyed that, you kept stimulated your mind on what.
Speaker 2: You exactly and like our guys and a team had
Speaker 2: a good team, and even some of the soldiers that
Speaker 2: were subject the matter and obviously not going to name anybody,
Speaker 2: I think they had that perception of what we are
Speaker 2: who were But when they spoke the investigator Lucky I
Speaker 2: had very experienced homicide people team at Queensland Homicide, Victorian Homicide,
Speaker 2: their experienced New South while Intel an AFP officer like
Speaker 2: I had a really good team. And when they spoke
Speaker 2: to these people, the subjects of those investigations, I think
Speaker 2: they had a different view afterwards because I could see
Speaker 2: that we're just doing a job and that we treated
Speaker 2: them fairly.
Speaker 1: It wasn't which.
Speaker 2: Exactly right, and so I think overall, you know, it's
Speaker 2: still ongoing, so obviously limited to what we say. But I,
Speaker 2: for myself, personally, I thought it was good. I've been
Speaker 2: coming to Sydney off and on for that many years,
Speaker 2: so living here for a couple of years and just
Speaker 2: being like a fIF back to the Sunshine case wasn't
Speaker 2: such a bad option.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I want to just get a sense, like
Speaker 1: a criminal investigation, what qualities And yeah, I'm not pissing
Speaker 1: in your pocket here that you're a good detective. I'm
Speaker 1: interested in what qualities you see that makes a good detective.
Speaker 2: I think we talked about a communication. You've just got
Speaker 2: to talk to people, and every persons different and you've
Speaker 2: got to you've got to quickly realize what this person
Speaker 2: will want talk about, or what they're like, or what
Speaker 2: attitude they've got a view, and you've got to change
Speaker 2: your vocabulary, change everything, change the way you're looking at,
Speaker 2: change what you So let's go and sit down here
Speaker 2: and just do you want a coffee? Mate? All of
Speaker 2: a sudden, it's a different scenario, and you know you're
Speaker 2: not just some copper having this regulated type of conversations
Speaker 2: to someone. Those type of skills are the biggest skills communication,
Speaker 2: and you can't You're not going to learn that at
Speaker 2: the police academy. You're not going to learn it. You'll
Speaker 2: get told how about interviewing and learn from psychologists about
Speaker 2: you know, people dealing with people. Sure, you get that background,
Speaker 2: but those skills, they're learned. They're learned, and I think
Speaker 2: maybe it's a type of character you are. You know,
Speaker 2: like like you are in a pub probably anywhere when
Speaker 2: I was a young black and talk to the old
Speaker 2: tanks to me about anything, you know what I mean,
Speaker 2: And if they weren't a bug, if he wanted to
Speaker 2: talk about this, or talk about football, I'd ever talked
Speaker 2: to him about or whatever it might have been. So
Speaker 2: I think you do have some natural skills that you
Speaker 2: bring in that some people don't.
Speaker 1: Well, it's amazing what you the type of people that
Speaker 1: you get to deal with as a detective. If you
Speaker 1: spent a long time there that you're literally speaking the
Speaker 1: heads of state royalty down to the local junkie on
Speaker 1: the street exactly and the whole range in between, and
Speaker 1: you've got to be able to communicate at their level.
Speaker 1: I always thought that was important that yeah, not judging people.
Speaker 2: And also there's another thing too I was thinking of
Speaker 2: quite honestly, you've got to have a better guts. You've
Speaker 2: got to have a bit of moral courage because not
Speaker 2: everyone's going to like it. Not everyone's going to want
Speaker 2: to talk to you, and crooks are like dingoes. They'll
Speaker 2: smell fere and uh good, that's my my thoughts. I've
Speaker 2: always believed that that they smell fear, and the moment
Speaker 2: they smell fear, I'll try and walk all over you.
Speaker 2: And you've got to have that type of front where
Speaker 2: you're show that you're not. You might be thinking this
Speaker 2: guy is huge. If he starts knuck on me, I'm
Speaker 2: going to have to do him invest But unless you've
Speaker 2: got that thought process, oh you're half prepared for it.
Speaker 2: But they will smell fear, and you've got to it's
Speaker 2: your demeanor whether you can overcome that as well. So
Speaker 2: you've got to have a bit of moral courage and.
Speaker 1: The way definitely the way you carry carry yourself. And
Speaker 1: you see it suit with some people, and it might
Speaker 1: be a young detective coming in and there's this whole
Speaker 1: crook that spent more time in an interview room than
Speaker 1: the cop has, and you can see the balance is
Speaker 1: not right. You've got to be able to take criticism
Speaker 1: as a cop too. And I saw people really take
Speaker 1: it personally that we go to court and you'd be criticized,
Speaker 1: but we've done nothing wrong. Why are we getting criticized.
Speaker 1: You've got to be a little bit robust. You've got
Speaker 1: to believe in what you're doing and prepared to take
Speaker 1: the people who are going to throw shit back at exactly.
Speaker 2: Look, I've had plenty of beers with barrasses after getting
Speaker 2: a hiding off them or and have a period of time.
Speaker 2: They'd say, listen, you're going to get I'm going to
Speaker 2: hammer you about this, but we'll never be later, and
Speaker 2: that's that's that's fair. And but you're right. And sometimes
Speaker 2: you'd be getting cross examined about something and you're thinking,
Speaker 2: I wish I'd have done that, or it's a learning
Speaker 2: it's a learning process. You never stop learning. You just
Speaker 2: never stop learning. But take take a positive away and
Speaker 2: go okay. And sometimes you've got to own your mistakes. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 2: Yeah I made a mistake. Oh yeah, acknowledge if you're
Speaker 2: getting hammer by embarrassed as you know, and you go
Speaker 2: you acknowledge a mistake. Yeah I could have done that.
Speaker 2: I probably should have take the Well that's the end of.
Speaker 1: It when you're arguing and just not an inch. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but that that comes comes with experience. I got to say,
Speaker 1: with some of the barrisses that I'd go up against
Speaker 1: during my court time, I've had them here on the podcast,
Speaker 1: and I've got to begrudgingly say, and I say that
Speaker 1: half jokingly, that they improved me as a detective because
Speaker 1: I'd come up against them and I go, I'd prepare
Speaker 1: as much as I could walk in there, and they
Speaker 1: the moment that I opened my mouth, they asked me
Speaker 1: a question. I think, Fuck, that's a good question. Why
Speaker 1: didn't I think I think of that? But Okay, that's
Speaker 1: what I've learned. So each time you up skills. So
Speaker 1: some of the people that I didn't like in early
Speaker 1: parts of my career, I've got a credit with credit
Speaker 1: them with helping me development.
Speaker 2: They helped your self improvement because you were in a
Speaker 2: way to the next investigation. Remember what you got hamm
Speaker 2: about last time. I'm not going to make that mistake again,
Speaker 2: or I'm going to do things a little bit different.
Speaker 2: And I'm going to ask this peanut some other things
Speaker 2: that I was getting hammon about last time. You know,
Speaker 2: it's a learning curve.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're tight and tighten your gamer.
Speaker 2: And you shouldn't take it personally. That's that you should get.
Speaker 2: And a lot of young ones do they think they're getting.
Speaker 2: They get a subject of it, and they I could
Speaker 2: still go up to any Barris and I have a
Speaker 2: talk to him later and ask him something. But some
Speaker 2: of the young ones didn't have that. I said, you
Speaker 2: just got to accept them.
Speaker 1: It's almost it might be a generational thing, but it's
Speaker 1: almost like shock. How did someone criticize me? Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's part and parcel of the job. You've chosen through
Speaker 1: your career. Got some awards and you've got the Australian
Speaker 1: Police Medal, and that's that's a fairly impressive award for
Speaker 1: services to the community like above and beyond them the people.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of great cops that have got that award.
Speaker 1: But you also got the Queensland Women in Policing Award.
Speaker 1: And we're very open minded here, Darren, but how did
Speaker 1: you get the woman.
Speaker 2: The Queensland one was a recognition, but then I think
Speaker 2: it was the following year or something like that. I
Speaker 2: got the Australian that QUAP Women Australian Women and Policing
Speaker 2: Award for a champion of change.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, having to get maybe it's the way you tackled.
Speaker 2: Or I've got plenty over it.
Speaker 1: Because I was preparing for this, I know a lot
Speaker 1: about you, but I'm flicking through it. How did you
Speaker 1: get that all? So you explained it just on record.
Speaker 2: When I was a Sanshine Coast particularly, I had some
Speaker 2: part time female officers there. They just do a great job,
Speaker 2: and I know how they struggle with kids and get
Speaker 2: themself to work, kids sick, and I a good relations
Speaker 2: with them because I think it was the way I
Speaker 2: treated them they hadn't been used to maybe previously. And
Speaker 2: I know when they got to work if they had
Speaker 2: to be late, or they couldn't they couldn't drop their
Speaker 2: kid to the child as he's sick. That to make
Speaker 2: some under rangers they're not going to be there at
Speaker 2: five d eight, They're going to be there at quarter
Speaker 2: past date. So bit. But they would work extremely hard,
Speaker 2: even for the ones doing part time, and I recognized that.
Speaker 2: And even though I was in the territory to work
Speaker 2: with female detectives, especially when I was young and when
Speaker 2: I first went to the branch, the old detective sergeants
Speaker 2: didn't want to work with the female detectives. That was
Speaker 2: the way it was, and I'd always end up working
Speaker 2: with them, especially the sexual assault matter, as we're always
Speaker 2: doing it was a bit of old school. The female
Speaker 2: detectives interview the female victim, I do the trouble trying
Speaker 2: to round up the offender and what have you. But
Speaker 2: I work really nice to see how they managed ship
Speaker 2: work with children and all that. And I appreciated that
Speaker 2: I struggled themself to get myself to work lettlone have
Speaker 2: to manage two kids, and even if they were married
Speaker 2: and everything. Women looked at the kids better than men,
Speaker 2: especially back then, and I just had an appreciate of it.
Speaker 2: That award I didn't know I was getting nominated, was
Speaker 2: nominated by the girls that worked in my well there
Speaker 2: at the Sunshine Coast and another officer they nominated me
Speaker 2: for it, and.
Speaker 1: Well at old Jakes aside, I think you should be
Speaker 1: proud of that. I really do, because what you've said
Speaker 1: is so true and I see and we don't have
Speaker 1: enough women in certainly criminal investigation because of the type
Speaker 1: of things you're talking about. And if you can give
Speaker 1: them that little bit of assistance and it doesn't cost anything,
Speaker 1: of course, and to me create a happy work environ.
Speaker 2: A pressure off them. Yeah, not to have say they
Speaker 2: say I'll buy some I'm sorry, I'm going to be
Speaker 2: ten minutes like that. You don't need to apologize when
Speaker 2: they come in and say come when you can. Don't
Speaker 2: worry about ring up and getting stressed out, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean, There's no need. We'll send me a
Speaker 2: text hey kids sick, be late. That's it.
Speaker 1: That's the way. And it's that old school thinking going, oh,
Speaker 1: that's why women shouldn't be in the cops. They add
Speaker 1: to every investigation I've been on. If I have a
Speaker 1: woman on the strike force, it gives a balance. Otherwise
Speaker 1: you've got buffhead blokes thinking one way. And quite often
Speaker 1: discussions you have with the difficult investigations of woman's perspective
Speaker 1: on it quite often change it changes you're thinking.
Speaker 2: Look when I got that award and it was a
Speaker 2: functioning pin, I didn't expect that.
Speaker 1: What frock did you wear there?
Speaker 2: And I had I was quite quite a good as
Speaker 2: I said, I didn't expect that to get it at all,
Speaker 2: and it was a bit of a shock and I'd
Speaker 2: had nothing prepared. And the same thing I talked about, Well,
Speaker 2: one of the ladies I used to work with, and
Speaker 2: Angie Smith now she was Angie Brad Then I remember
Speaker 2: we're going out for a sexual assault. We're going back
Speaker 2: to her place, so I'm just going to get a
Speaker 2: husband and given my a hand with the kids. We'll
Speaker 2: go back, have a cup tea and a bit of
Speaker 2: taste or something, and then we'll go back and try
Speaker 2: and tidy things up. I think we'd locked the offender
Speaker 2: up as well. And I remember sitting on the couch
Speaker 2: with her son, David. He was probably three or four,
Speaker 2: and he said something to me and I said this,
Speaker 2: and I said, I don't know what he said. And
Speaker 2: I said, oh, and I made it. I'm pretty tired.
Speaker 2: And he said, you're not pretty come back from that.
Speaker 2: And and even as your name, my nickname was Edouard.
Speaker 2: And even the homicide guy from Victoria that worked Mere
Speaker 2: in Sydney, we saw that award, he just what a
Speaker 2: load of rubbish, you know, And he used to give
Speaker 2: me and I used to enjoy seeing him afraid of
Speaker 2: my award every now and then, you know. And when
Speaker 2: they used to advertise nominees for that, I said, you're
Speaker 2: going to nominate for that? Anyway? I was talking about
Speaker 2: that news Wills Intel also we had there. She's a champion, Chris.
Speaker 2: She she's now switched OVERFP but she's about five foot nothing, thin,
Speaker 2: Greek heritage, very fiery, and we used to stir up
Speaker 2: and we didn't have to try hard. And she used
Speaker 2: to fire up and especially Josh and said, I was going,
Speaker 2: why don't you go and see your champion and change?
Speaker 2: And she used to be my biggest defender, you know.
Speaker 2: But it was about that relationship that you developed. And
Speaker 2: you know, they used to take photos office in there,
Speaker 2: and when I finished the three guys we got, I
Speaker 2: got the same shirt from this manufacturer. We we got
Speaker 2: the same shirt and we all photograph and they put
Speaker 2: photos up in the wall and Eduarde champion a change.
Speaker 2: And then well that's the other thing about that. And
Speaker 2: I probably said that to you. I said, I had
Speaker 2: to explain my whole life why I was called Eduarda
Speaker 2: and that still happens now. So Eduard, I think I
Speaker 2: sent you the photo of it was a photo that fart.
Speaker 2: I think it was about nineteen eighty eight, and you
Speaker 2: can see I look you for all intents my grandfather
Speaker 2: mum so I was Maltese, but I look like I'm
Speaker 2: some Spanish tourists or something. Yeah, exactly in here. And
Speaker 2: I was a bit old, especially in the territorial as years. Anyway,
Speaker 2: I think it was in Mackay. I'd come there and
Speaker 2: cost me from the territory and I looked still looked
Speaker 2: a bit like that. And there was a guy that
Speaker 2: had a business up there, Edward Pool, the pool maintenance. Anyway,
Speaker 2: there's the clues to call me the pool clean Anyway,
Speaker 2: Someone's typing their running shots in and then they'd always
Speaker 2: I'd put Edwards slash you know whoever, Smith or whatever,
Speaker 2: and anyway they'd always get rid of the s and
Speaker 2: put oath and the bosses comes out the freaking elles
Speaker 2: Eduardo and just it went on and on went over
Speaker 2: the years, and no one knew me in Brisbane, and
Speaker 2: then everyone thought my name was actually Eduarda and I
Speaker 2: had that photo and that just stuck with me for years.
Speaker 2: Well people didn't even know my real name.
Speaker 1: Well well, well deserved with the massage look undercover Spanish
Speaker 1: Spanish cop. I saw a photo of you too online
Speaker 1: somewhere sitting on the Harley, but I'm not sure that.
Speaker 2: Was Dar And that was right on the blancs. I
Speaker 2: was in a group there, a tactical intel group where
Speaker 2: we used to a lot of intel and target the
Speaker 2: bikes up there at the time. That's what that was.
Speaker 1: Yeah right, Okay, well you've you've had a had a
Speaker 1: great career, would you would you recommend it for others?
Speaker 2: I've had funny, I've had mixed feelings, and I change.
Speaker 2: I probably change a bit on that. Sometimes when my
Speaker 2: daughter's younger, if they said, oh, I joined the police,
Speaker 2: or so I don't, please don't. Now I'm probably a
Speaker 2: little bit different. I still think there, especially if they're intelligent,
Speaker 2: because my daughter's a universe as you have a very
Speaker 2: good position qualifications, I think there's better opportunity. I used
Speaker 2: to see a lot of ones doing UNI that used
Speaker 2: to use the police as a bit of a stepping
Speaker 2: stone to maybe something else. Understand that, you know, years
Speaker 2: ago we used to have a job and we just
Speaker 2: have that job for forty years, and you know the
Speaker 2: young ones. Now I think seven years as the long
Speaker 2: as someone spends in the same job. It's changed. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but now I think I think it's difficult, especially the focus.
Speaker 2: The DV stuff is really hard, and the job is harder.
Speaker 2: Everyone's filming you at the moment you two and you're
Speaker 2: using body warm camera. You've got to think. But having
Speaker 2: said that. I think young people are more educated than
Speaker 2: probably you and I were. I didn't even finish grade twelve,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, went to tafe, did a
Speaker 2: trade course. You know my focus. I wanted to be
Speaker 2: a bricklayer. That was what I wanted. Yeah, it was
Speaker 2: a great, a huge aspiration.
Speaker 1: That would have been tough. Although now you'd probably be doing.
Speaker 2: Bricking and my brother's are built tough gig and I
Speaker 2: saw my brother Ago and he's his bodies He's two
Speaker 2: years younger than me and his body is really suffering. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so I don't know. At this day and age, I
Speaker 2: think maybe it is a good option. And the money
Speaker 2: is pretty good, so at least it's a starting and
Speaker 2: there are avenues to go. I think it's look, not
Speaker 2: everyone's going to be want to be a street copper
Speaker 2: and doing that for that and they don't cope with
Speaker 2: shift work and all the rest of them. And if
Speaker 2: I'm on a bit gay to frauds squad and that's good.
Speaker 2: You see, you be a fraudsquad detective, sit in the
Speaker 2: air conditioning seven point five hours of the day and
Speaker 2: build a brief and that's what you're okay, But I
Speaker 2: think there is avenues for people a bit more than
Speaker 2: what you and I would have looked.
Speaker 1: I'd like them to make it because you talked about yeah,
Speaker 1: we signed up and it was basically, Okay, this is
Speaker 1: what I'm doing for the rest of my life, and
Speaker 1: you said the seven year mark is where people tend
Speaker 1: to change careers. I reckon if we could make police
Speaker 1: in a little bit more flexible, so you could love
Speaker 1: take a couple of years off and come back and
Speaker 1: do a refresher course if legislations change, or up skill
Speaker 1: and get your firearms practices in place. You should be
Speaker 1: able to take time and then come back and rejoin
Speaker 1: and not have to start at the bottom again. I
Speaker 1: think that would encourage people because it's almost like, Okay,
Speaker 1: if I'm going to sign up for this, I'm going
Speaker 1: to have someone telling me what to do for the
Speaker 1: rest of my life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there is there is a bit of flex There
Speaker 2: should be flexible. I agree, because I see some coppers
Speaker 2: that leave to go and do something else and then
Speaker 2: that's not that great and the money is like and actually,
Speaker 2: you know, I think I'm better off back at the cops.
Speaker 2: I think they shouldn't It shouldn't be hard to do
Speaker 2: that it shouldn't be hard. It shouldn't be made hard.
Speaker 2: And that's a way of getting numbers back and keeping
Speaker 2: that maintaining that, you know, trying to stop that attrition
Speaker 2: rate set of just know you're gone now and you've
Speaker 2: got to apply and crawl over hot coals to try
Speaker 2: and come back. It shouldn't be like that. Shouldn't Yeah,
Speaker 2: it should be you know, when you have an exit interview,
Speaker 2: we're sorry to see you go. You'll have a job
Speaker 2: here if you come back, you'll have a job here. Mate.
Speaker 2: What will do We can just put you through a
Speaker 2: week of FoST firearm and tactical training get your back,
Speaker 2: but we'll go through some education. We'll have something set
Speaker 2: up on a course at the academy. We have these
Speaker 2: rolling all the time. You know, it's not that hard.
Speaker 1: And you don't forget, like if you've done something for
Speaker 1: a long time, you don't forget, and you could come
Speaker 1: back into it. Yeah, I think that could be the
Speaker 1: future of policing because everyone's struggling to attract police and
Speaker 1: maybe we just need that flexibility. But look, we might
Speaker 1: wrap it up here, Darren. I just want to say
Speaker 1: I enjoyed when we got to work together, had great times,
Speaker 1: and I totally respect the type of cop that you
Speaker 1: are and also thank you on behalf of the communities
Speaker 1: that you've served and the work that you've done, and
Speaker 1: you've done it with a lot of dignity to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I appreciate it. And as I said, I
Speaker 2: wasn't pissing your pocket. It's good to have stayed in
Speaker 2: contact with you and have that friendly basis and that
Speaker 2: it's really encouraging. And so many people talk about the
Speaker 2: podcast work that you've done, and everyone can relate to it,
Speaker 2: but it gives an opportunity to people. That gives opportunity
Speaker 2: for other people to listen and hear it in a
Speaker 2: relaxed format and we're not governed by I can't talk
Speaker 2: about that, I can't talk about this. I think that's
Speaker 2: really good and I think it does Yeah, you know yourself,
Speaker 2: it does have help to talk about those things. So
Speaker 2: I think there it has been a good opportunity for
Speaker 2: me to come and see you and talk about it
Speaker 2: because I don't get an often, but I'm sure my
Speaker 2: partner gets sick of me telling a war stories. I
Speaker 2: remember this, you think in Darwen in nineteen ninety one
Speaker 2: and he's looking at me, and I don't think. I
Speaker 2: don't worry about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we probably should put a shout out to the
Speaker 1: partners of police.
Speaker 2: That, you know what, I had copies of my diaries,
Speaker 2: you know, in the back of our diary in the
Speaker 2: territory used to write when we arrested someone, were involved
Speaker 2: in the rest of someone, and we'd have the date
Speaker 2: of John Smith receiving burglary whatever. And I had a
Speaker 2: heap of from there manslaughter, man's all. And I can
Speaker 2: remember nearly virtually remember every person. When I looked at
Speaker 2: the name, I remember him.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well I found Bret Cown's name there, and it was
Speaker 2: the date in whatever it was in ninety three, and
Speaker 2: I have the page. I just put a sault in
Speaker 2: Matthew because I think it was Matthew is the name
Speaker 2: of the young boy that was right, okay, And I'm thinking, wow,
Speaker 2: there it is there. And there was another matter I
Speaker 2: was trying to think of, grimly, this guy is a
Speaker 2: sexual asault young girl. Anyway, I found it is here,
Speaker 2: you know, but I still had them. It was funny,
Speaker 2: you know. I was showing some of my partner and
Speaker 2: I could just see she was glazing over, so I
Speaker 2: don't really get an opportunity to talk to people much.
Speaker 1: They won't listen. That's exciting. They haven't told you the
Speaker 1: end yea further than a thousand times. I've been there
Speaker 1: and done that. Well, thanks all the best of your retirement.
Speaker 1: I'm sure you're enjoying yourself. Last time I spoke to
Speaker 1: you were out on your your surf ski battling on
Speaker 1: the on the river. So yeah, good good luck.
Speaker 2: Thanks for the invitation and thanks for the opportunity and
Speaker 2: your staff member as well.
Speaker 1: Love the Fund. Nine