Speaker 1: We'd like to acknowledge that traditional custodians of the land
Speaker 1: on which this podcast was produced the Gadigle people of
Speaker 1: the Orination. We pay our respects to Elder's past and present.
Speaker 1: This episode contains discussions of mental ill health and suicide.
Speaker 1: If this raises any issues for you, support is available
Speaker 1: through the links and phone numbers in the show notes.
Speaker 2: It's nineteen ninety six and we're in Coff's Harbor with
Speaker 2: Detective Alan Sparks. He's on duty with his colleague Gavin
Speaker 2: when they get a call. A young boy has been
Speaker 2: washed into a storm water drain after days of torrential downpour.
Speaker 2: There's more rain on the way. They have to act quickly.
Speaker 2: Alan jumps in and follows the child's screams through the
Speaker 2: maze of the drain system. After almost drowning himself, news
Speaker 2: comes through that the boy has been heard some six
Speaker 2: hundred meters away. A grueling hour later, Alan finds the boy,
Speaker 2: pulls him into his arms and tries to calm him down.
Speaker 2: When they come out of the drain, news cameras are
Speaker 2: there to capture the moment. Shortly after the dramatic rescue,
Speaker 2: he's in the fetal position in the shower. Alan is
Speaker 2: a hero, but he doesn't feel like one. I'm Att
Speaker 2: Middleton and this is head Game today, the real cost
Speaker 2: of working on the front line, and how hope saved
Speaker 2: Alan Sparks. Alan Sparks, Welcome to Headgame. Now you're a
Speaker 2: former detective and you're in a police force for the
Speaker 2: majority of your career. Why did you want to join
Speaker 2: the police force?
Speaker 3: I originally wanted to be a geologist. My dad took
Speaker 3: me up to a little place called Glengarry near Lightning
Speaker 3: Ridge many years ago before I finished school, and we
Speaker 3: were open mining and I really loved gems and Ople's
Speaker 3: and Lord. But then I couldn't affordy eighty university, so
Speaker 3: it was what else can I do? And a friend
Speaker 3: of my dad's was a policeman and he spoke to
Speaker 3: me about joining the police force. And at that stage
Speaker 3: I was a sharer. I was still only very young
Speaker 3: and only finished high school and I was jack ewing
Speaker 3: and working in the land and became a sharer, and
Speaker 3: I was tol you know, do I join the cops?
Speaker 3: Do I stay sharing? Because I was playing rugby and
Speaker 3: loving my rugby and loving working as a sharer, and
Speaker 3: they said, well, why don't you go and try it out.
Speaker 3: You don't like it, come back playing foot and keep sharing.
Speaker 3: So I said, okay. So I joined up two weeks
Speaker 3: after I turned nineteen and so young. Yeah, yeah, And
Speaker 3: I come from a little village out in the central
Speaker 3: west of New South Wales Aunt so I sent two
Speaker 3: hundred and fifty people in the village so to come
Speaker 3: into Sydney and to go to training at Redfern and
Speaker 3: then my first station was Darlinghurst in King's Cross. So
Speaker 3: that was as I haven't for me as a young kid,
Speaker 3: and I absolutely loved it. It was just full of
Speaker 3: excitement and new experiences. Every day it was new experiences
Speaker 3: and certainly there were things I was never exposed to
Speaker 3: previously that obviously goes with first response work. And I
Speaker 3: went in and I was a young cop on the
Speaker 3: beat at King's Cross at nineteen back in the days
Speaker 3: when there's only two of us on the beat, so
Speaker 3: night shifts afternoon shifts were challenging at times physically. I
Speaker 3: really liked the idea of becoming detective and I started
Speaker 3: my playing clothes career at Darlinghurst and there were some
Speaker 3: absolutely brilliant detectives who worked in that area, who were
Speaker 3: great mentors, great educators, great advisors and good friends. And
Speaker 3: I loved working there. And then some years later another
Speaker 3: detective came there who was quite notorist in Australia, and
Speaker 3: one night here and I didn't see eye to I,
Speaker 3: so he shafted me and I did a side went
Speaker 3: to the Detective's course where I became a lecturer in
Speaker 3: the Detective's course where I met my now wife. But
Speaker 3: also there was another member of that class who featured
Speaker 3: significantly in my life later on, Pete Addison. Pete was
Speaker 3: murdered at Crescent Head some years later, and Pete was
Speaker 3: an absolutely wonderful man. And so after the Detection's Course,
Speaker 3: I barred out for a while and then went back
Speaker 3: to the cops and then went to South Region Breaking Squad,
Speaker 3: which was an area where we specialized in targeting organized
Speaker 3: crime pretty much sort of the heavies of Sydney crime,
Speaker 3: heavies of Australian crime, the gangsters, and that was an
Speaker 3: amazing squad to work in. I really loved that, and
Speaker 3: then I wanted to get into some real estate and
Speaker 3: deb and I'd start a relationship by this stage and Sydney.
Speaker 3: I just couldn't afford it, so there's a vacacy came
Speaker 3: up with Coffs Harbor. So I spoke to Dev and said, look,
Speaker 3: I'd like to go up there, maybe get start in
Speaker 3: real estate, maybe come back. So Deb she was then
Speaker 3: working at the surveillance unit, which is like an undercover unit,
Speaker 3: and she also transferred up about it a year after
Speaker 3: I started there, and yes, stayed there until I unfortunately
Speaker 3: become a very unwell and lost my career and the
Speaker 3: rest is history. As they say, you get.
Speaker 2: A call back in nineteen ninety six, take me back
Speaker 2: to that call where you've got a call out for
Speaker 2: a young boy that got washed into a storm water drain.
Speaker 3: I remember that day so clearly. And I was working
Speaker 3: with a guy called Gavin Dengate and Gave was my
Speaker 3: workmatee at COFs Harbor, and we were investigating the theft
Speaker 3: of some jury from a lady who was in a
Speaker 3: nursing home. That's all she had left from her marriage.
Speaker 3: My husband passed and her jurry had been stolen. So
Speaker 3: we had executed a search warrant and we recovered the
Speaker 3: jury and we arrested the person who stole it. And
Speaker 3: I remember that morning we went the nursing home and
Speaker 3: afterward photographed and log the jewelry. We gave it back
Speaker 3: to this old lady and she was just in tears.
Speaker 3: She never expected to see it again. And that is
Speaker 3: a cop you know sometimes where you go, I've actually
Speaker 3: done some really good today, and Gavin, I it wasn't
Speaker 3: a major crime, but it meant the world of this woman,
Speaker 3: and what we were able to achieve meant the world
Speaker 3: for it. And I'm quite sure that she would have
Speaker 3: been at peace for the rest of her life because
Speaker 3: she got a jury.
Speaker 2: It's amazing that you remember that crime like that, but
Speaker 2: the effect that it has on someone and the result
Speaker 2: that you give them.
Speaker 3: That's right.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So and that's part of our job is to
Speaker 3: make a difference in people's lives. So then we went
Speaker 3: back to the station. We're just having a cup of tea,
Speaker 3: and I remember we were standing in the mill room
Speaker 3: near the sink, and when the police issue are like
Speaker 3: an urgent job, you get two distinct beeps over the radio,
Speaker 3: and then it said any car in the vicinity of
Speaker 3: whatever street it was. We swept into a storm water
Speaker 3: pipe and normally that's a job that uniform would attend,
Speaker 3: not detectives. It's not a storm or a drain, which
Speaker 3: is a large thing you can actually walk into. This
Speaker 3: is a narrow pipe. So I remember Gave and I
Speaker 3: we just looked at each other and just threw our
Speaker 3: cups in the sink, raced downstairs, jumped in the car,
Speaker 3: took off up to this street and we got there
Speaker 3: and we'd had five days of absolutely torrential rainfall at
Speaker 3: Cops Harbor, so everything was flooded. And we got to
Speaker 3: the scene. There were two little boys. They were saturated,
Speaker 3: and there was a workman there, an adult male, and
Speaker 3: we said to the kids, what's happened. They said, oh, gians,
Speaker 3: giants disappeared. I said, where's he disappeared? Mate, and they
Speaker 3: pointed to this whirlpool and I've gone, oh shit.
Speaker 2: Were they playing in the whirlpool?
Speaker 3: Yeah, they've been playing on their boogie boards in the
Speaker 3: flooded creek. And the whole thing was flooded and this
Speaker 3: whirlpool was massive, was just swirling around and I thought, great,
Speaker 3: what are we going to do? And the workman said, look,
Speaker 3: you can actually get access to look down the drain
Speaker 3: across the road. So we ran across the road and.
Speaker 2: It's just two of you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So we lifted up the concrete covers. We took
Speaker 3: our guns and handcuffs off. Three those in the car
Speaker 3: jumped into the into the drain, and we looked down.
Speaker 3: We could see what we thought was a little boy's
Speaker 3: body down the pipe. And I think the workman he
Speaker 3: gave us a rope, gave wanted to go down, and
Speaker 3: I said to gave look, I'll go down. I'll grab him.
Speaker 3: I'll give you three tugets and I've got him. Pulled
Speaker 3: me back. So I started to go down and I
Speaker 3: realized this rope is going to snap and then I'm
Speaker 3: down there. So I tugged on the rope gave pulled
Speaker 3: me back up to the surface. And I'd only gone
Speaker 3: down a few meters and by that stage the State
Speaker 3: Emergency Service were there, other cops are there, and I
Speaker 3: say this a lot of I thank god the professionals here,
Speaker 3: they'll take over. And they just gave me a bigger
Speaker 3: rope and put me back.
Speaker 2: So then I went anyway, continue, Yeah.
Speaker 3: And then I still remember like I'm not a small man.
Speaker 3: I think at that stage I was probably punching one
Speaker 3: hundred plus kilos. I'm six' two and this water literally
Speaker 3: just carried me down like a. LEAF i. WAS i
Speaker 3: was weightless the power of this.
Speaker 2: Water SO i fat done that to. You were you, thinking, wow,
Speaker 2: Yeah i've sped done to this little.
Speaker 3: Boy. Yeah and our reasoning was if we get him,
Speaker 3: out if he's, dead well we have a chance of reviving.
Speaker 3: Him if he's, alive we've got to get him out
Speaker 3: before it rains again and he gets washed.
Speaker 2: Away and what was going through your.
Speaker 3: Mind i'm a very positive. PERSON i, Thought, no he's.
Speaker 3: Alive we'll get him out and we'll get, him get,
Speaker 3: him get him back. Home it'll be. Right so the
Speaker 3: focus was get to. Him AND i had a torch with,
Speaker 3: me like a, MAGLIGHT i, think and there's been. ESTIMATE
Speaker 3: i went down eighty meters down the, pipe and by
Speaker 3: the time we got to where we thought it was,
Speaker 3: him the light showed up was just like it was
Speaker 3: a branch that was giving these weird.
Speaker 2: Shadows so what you thought was the boy was then.
Speaker 3: Eight, yeah this is not. Good So i've tugged three
Speaker 3: times on the. Rope thank, God gavin was in the.
Speaker 3: Drain he could see what was going. On so as
Speaker 3: soon AS i tugged them the, rope they stopped the free.
Speaker 3: Flow So i've stopped and my, Bulk i've actually damned myself.
Speaker 3: In so SUDDENLY i Am i'm engulfed in, water and
Speaker 3: this water is so. Powerful and my first thought, WAS
Speaker 3: i hope the guy that tied a bowline tied a
Speaker 3: good bowline around my, waist because ALL i had was
Speaker 3: just a rope on my. Arms so then they started
Speaker 3: to pull me back And i'm not in a good position.
Speaker 3: HERE i, Thought i'm going to die, Here i'm going to.
Speaker 2: Drown and so you've got this this this backwash just engulfing.
Speaker 3: You, Yeah i'm pretty much submerged under the, water being
Speaker 3: pulled backwards by all the all the ses guys that
Speaker 3: cops up on the surface point.
Speaker 2: No proper, equipment just a rope around your.
Speaker 3: Boy, yeah SO i remember sort of Sometimes i'd create
Speaker 3: a bit of an, arch make an air, pocket grab
Speaker 3: a quick, breath get under the, water and go back
Speaker 3: under the water. Again and then we got. Back i've
Speaker 3: got back to the, surface, Thankfully and then we were
Speaker 3: just standing, around going we have to find ways into this.
Speaker 3: Drain we've got to try and reap frog down the
Speaker 3: drain to try and find, him and then a call
Speaker 3: came over the radio to say they can hear a
Speaker 3: child screaming down The Pacific. Highway, Mentally i'll, gone that's
Speaker 3: a long way. Away that's a seriously long way. Away
Speaker 3: and it turns out from where we were it was
Speaker 3: about as the craveflies five hundred.
Speaker 2: Meters it's like a maze down.
Speaker 3: There, Right, yeah there's this. PIPE i, MEAN i know
Speaker 3: it went to a certain. Direction but when we got
Speaker 3: down to the, highway The Pacific highways all blocked. Off
Speaker 3: there's people, everywhere and we jumped out of the car
Speaker 3: and got to hear the screams of a.
Speaker 2: Child what's going through your head when you're hearing the?
Speaker 3: Screams, confusion absolute. Confusion LIKE i thought the kid was.
Speaker 3: DEAD i thought we were looking for a body. Recovery,
Speaker 3: yeah there's no way this can be. ALIVE i thought
Speaker 3: he's trapped against a great. Somewhere he is. Dead but
Speaker 3: then to hear the, Screams, no he's actually. Live so
Speaker 3: my brain's going dead alive and he's. Alive But michael
Speaker 3: mar the. Paramedic michael was laying on his tummy with
Speaker 3: his head down into this manhole and we ran over
Speaker 3: and the water was bubbling up on the. Manhole but
Speaker 3: the screams are coming up through the, water And i'm
Speaker 3: even more confused by this. Stage SO i. CALLED i,
Speaker 3: SAID i want a scuba. TANK i want to regulator
Speaker 3: BECAUSE i had done some scuba. DIVING i, said there
Speaker 3: are the two THINGS i. Want and somebody produced a
Speaker 3: ladder and plunked it down the manhole and there's ACTUAL
Speaker 3: tv footage Of gavin trying to squeeze his way down
Speaker 3: the camera.
Speaker 2: Cruiser yeahound up the emergency. Services you've got everyone that's
Speaker 2: now over watching.
Speaker 3: This and at some STAGE i don't know, when BUT
Speaker 3: i took my suit pants off And i'm there And box, assured,
Speaker 3: yeah my. Ppees, anyway So gav's we're all. There but
Speaker 3: there's these screams and these these are terrifying. SCREAMS a
Speaker 3: child screaming for their. Life it was. Terrifying so they
Speaker 3: put another rope around me and, no don't want. That
Speaker 3: gav went down straight down the. Ladder he disappeared under the.
Speaker 3: WATER i followed him down and the water is not,
Speaker 3: clear so obviously it's. Floodwater it's, filthy it's, Muddy gav.
Speaker 3: DISAPPEARED i went down And i'm under the water trying
Speaker 3: to film my way, around and we both came up
Speaker 3: in the junction of six of these pipes which were
Speaker 3: pouring in on top of wet had torch.
Speaker 2: On is it pitch black down?
Speaker 3: There, no it's pitch. Black we haven't got a, Torch
Speaker 3: we've got. Nothing and we we weren't. Communicating we just
Speaker 3: just knew what we thought we had to, do and
Speaker 3: that was to search to try and find which pipe is?
Speaker 2: Up followed the, Voice, yeah, Yeah.
Speaker 3: And we searched a couple of pipes each and then
Speaker 3: WHEN i went, UP i thought it's this. One i've
Speaker 3: got to take a. PUNT i think it's this, one
Speaker 3: because we were conscious if it rains, again we're all.
Speaker 3: Dead because downpour we're. Dead we're not going to get
Speaker 3: out and you're. Done SO i said To, gab, LOOK
Speaker 3: i think it's this. One can you try and find
Speaker 3: it a way into this? Pipe SO i regret that
Speaker 3: decision in, hindsight but why do you. Go gav should
Speaker 3: have been there with me to rejoice in the success
Speaker 3: we eventually. Had gav deserved to be there for that
Speaker 3: moment in. Life And i've always regretted THAT i Asked
Speaker 3: gav to leave the drain. System and why did you
Speaker 3: make that?
Speaker 2: Decision what was going for your? Head was it his
Speaker 2: safety or?
Speaker 3: No to try and get to this kid as quickly
Speaker 3: as we. Could IF i couldn't get to, him maybe
Speaker 3: up some other. Way unbeknownst to, us the council was
Speaker 3: bringing down a back. Hoe they were going to dig
Speaker 3: up the highway to try and find this. Kid that's
Speaker 3: how desperate it. Was and So gave went, up and
Speaker 3: Then Michael, marlin, paramedic came down and he gave me
Speaker 3: a turt AND i think he INSISTED i put a
Speaker 3: rope around my. Tummy but this Time i'm on my
Speaker 3: fingernails and, toenails crawling up this pipe to try and
Speaker 3: get to WHERE i think the kid. Is and again
Speaker 3: these screams are just doing my head And i'm crawling,
Speaker 3: up literally crawling in amongst the concrete and the crap
Speaker 3: that's in a concrete, pipe and it's it's shoulder with the.
Speaker 3: PART i was watching your show the other, night but
Speaker 3: they did the exercise being in the water. Pipe, Wow,
Speaker 3: OKAY i know that's like, yeah, yeah. Yeah, anyway So
Speaker 3: i'm crawling up the. Pipe Michael maer is behind, me
Speaker 3: screaming at. Me if you got him, Out i've got.
Speaker 3: Him have you got? Him how long have you been down?
Speaker 2: There, ah you're, cold your, Well.
Speaker 3: I'm, freezing, Miserable we're, freezing and All i'm gonna hear
Speaker 3: is this kid, Screaming michael. Screaming So i'm screaming At, michael,
Speaker 3: like shut their. Up i'm trying to call the. Kid it's, okay,
Speaker 3: Mate i'm, Coming i'm, Coming i'm. Coming could he hear your?
Speaker 2: Voice was he?
Speaker 3: Responding, no he was just he'd lost. It he was,
Speaker 3: hysterical he, was no, doubt. Hypothermic he'd been in there
Speaker 3: for forty five, minutes hanging on for dear, life because
Speaker 3: he's just hanging on to a log that's stammed across the.
Speaker 3: Pipe if that log wasn't, there he was dead because
Speaker 3: he would have got washed down to a great there
Speaker 3: was no way he would have. Survived so he's been
Speaker 3: hanging on there in the pitch dark with his water
Speaker 3: just powering onto his, body screaming and screaming for his,
Speaker 3: life and, suddenly no doubt he can see. Torchlight BUT
Speaker 3: i don't know whether he understands what it. Is AND
Speaker 3: i really. WASN'T i wasn't thinking about does he? Know
Speaker 3: does he? Know i'm just trying to get to. Him
Speaker 3: i'm absolutely, desperate AND i started to, pray, like, Please,
Speaker 3: god let me get to, Him please don't let him
Speaker 3: get washed. Away AND i kept crawling and, crawling, crawling
Speaker 3: AND i can picture it to this absolute moment in.
Speaker 3: Time my torchlight finally picked up his. Face that's ALL
Speaker 3: i can see was just his face and the illumination
Speaker 3: of the tour hitting his. Face it was LIKE i
Speaker 3: saw a ghost and it is so vivid in my.
Speaker 3: Memory AND i coaxed him to come towards me BECAUSE i,
Speaker 3: Thought i'm not going to get to.
Speaker 2: Him how far were you away from him when you?
Speaker 3: Swim oh and probably ten meters AND i was about
Speaker 3: thirty meters up the, yeah at the.
Speaker 2: Water.
Speaker 3: Yeah So i'd crawl thirty meters on my guts to
Speaker 3: get to. Him and then he. Did he got washed
Speaker 3: down to me And i've got hold of, him AND
Speaker 3: i was, like Oh, God i've got. Him and out
Speaker 3: of the, BLUE i just, said say thank You. God
Speaker 3: And i'm not a religious, person And i'm a very spiritual,
Speaker 3: person BUT i, said you say thank You, god and
Speaker 3: this little boy he just, said, oh thank You. God
Speaker 3: he started to bail his eyes, out AND i. DID
Speaker 3: i started to bore my eyes.
Speaker 2: Out so you have this moment where you've got him
Speaker 2: in your, arms he's gripping youws he is he calming
Speaker 2: down or is he just?
Speaker 3: Still he had basically just collapsed with, exhaustion with, emotion
Speaker 3: with a sense of HIS i feel so now this
Speaker 3: man's got. ME i feel. Safe and THEN i somehow
Speaker 3: pushed him under me and then he got washed down
Speaker 3: To Michael, marr the. Paramedic michael's got, him assessed. Him
Speaker 3: Then michael swam him under the, water got to where
Speaker 3: the manhole. Was michael climbed up the ladder then and
Speaker 3: THE tv foot cameras rolling and they reached down and
Speaker 3: they pulled this little kid out out of the drain
Speaker 3: and he just comes up like a drowned. Rat and
Speaker 3: they put him on the ambulance skur and he wrapped
Speaker 3: him up an emergency. Blanket his mom's, There she's been
Speaker 3: there through the whole. Thing she was hearing her child
Speaker 3: screaming for their. Life they wrap him up in the.
Speaker 3: Blanket Her mum's just hugging him and hugging. Him AND
Speaker 3: i get out of the. PIPE i go to the
Speaker 3: car And i'm sitting in the passenger seat of this,
Speaker 3: car AND i was. COLD i remember being really.
Speaker 2: Cold how only have you been down there? For AND
Speaker 2: i don't know how long had he been down there?
Speaker 3: For at least forty five, minutes at least for five.
Speaker 3: Minutes and halfway down the pipe he saw some light
Speaker 3: and he reached up and he grabbed hold of a
Speaker 3: grate in the side of the. Road because his vision,
Speaker 3: impaired his glasses went flying as soon as he got
Speaker 3: sucked off the. Boogeyboard, evidently he tells me that he
Speaker 3: could see shapes and he just started to scream and
Speaker 3: screen for, help and then the water just washed him
Speaker 3: away another three hundred, meters so it's been washed six
Speaker 3: hundred meters down the. Pipe. Wow and Then i'm in
Speaker 3: the car and Just i'm, Like i'm in. SHOCK i
Speaker 3: remember going back to the police. Station. Dad my, wife
Speaker 3: she was a cop. There she's in her. Office she
Speaker 3: isn't doing she's in a chop protection. Unit so she's
Speaker 3: in the in her office and they had for some,
Speaker 3: REASON i had the radio turned, down so she didn't
Speaker 3: know anything was going. On and she saw the car
Speaker 3: pull up and she looked. Out she Saw gavin get
Speaker 3: out in his pants and shirt, saturated holding his gun on.
Speaker 3: Handcuffs she's, going, oh it's. Strange then she saw me
Speaker 3: get out in my box of shorts holding my. Handcuffs
Speaker 3: what the hell is going had a lot of blood
Speaker 3: in my back and other. Stuff i've just, gone, yeah
Speaker 3: from a look like cutting myself on the concrete pipe
Speaker 3: because it was so narrow and trying to get it
Speaker 3: squeezed myself. Around SO i went into the crime, scene
Speaker 3: And i've just jumped straight in the shower just to
Speaker 3: wash all. THIS i felt, filthy and deb found. ME
Speaker 3: i just just curled up on the ball in the
Speaker 3: bottom of the, shower, assessed just sobbing my.
Speaker 2: Heart straight after the. Incident yeah it's affected you straight.
Speaker 3: Away, Yeah i've had a serious a serious how do you?
Speaker 3: Say looking at it, SCIENTIFICALLY i THINK i went from
Speaker 3: being a sympathetic nervous state into a massive power. Sympathetic i'm,
Speaker 3: Safe i'm, Warm i'm, okay and like my body has
Speaker 3: just shut.
Speaker 2: Down what you're thinking when you're in that state.
Speaker 3: At this, STAGE i don't remember thinking. ANYTHING i Remember
Speaker 3: deb consoling, me but she didn't know what in the
Speaker 3: hell had. Happened she had no idea what. Happened she's
Speaker 3: just there hugging. Me and THEN i got myself, together went,
Speaker 3: home had a proper, shower got, changed went back to,
Speaker 3: work and then the reporters are up there Asking gavin
Speaker 3: AND i questions and interviewing. Us and then we went
Speaker 3: had lunch.
Speaker 2: And this is all over the. News, yeah it's.
Speaker 3: Everywhere yeah it's national.
Speaker 2: News i've got to step out the. Door you're being.
Speaker 2: Harassed you keep.
Speaker 3: No there was more of the because they were all
Speaker 3: all local reporters who we. Knew it was just. Coffs
Speaker 3: hard was not a big, place and they just wanted
Speaker 3: to come up and talk to me and all that
Speaker 3: sort of. Stuff and then we went out for, lunch
Speaker 3: and THEN i worked that afternoon and then we went
Speaker 3: to the pub and absolutely smashed that. Night then the
Speaker 3: next DAY i had to go down to the Police
Speaker 3: academy to start the Homicide investigator's, course AND i remember
Speaker 3: for that first for that WEEK i was, AWAY i didn't.
Speaker 3: Sleep every TIME i closed my, EYES i, screamed kid and.
Speaker 2: The kid's face, right, yeah about the torch and seeing his. Face,
Speaker 2: yeah do you still see his?
Speaker 3: FACE i, Do, Yeah but that's a good. Thing, Yeah
Speaker 3: i'm really good with. That but by this, stage And
Speaker 3: i'd already i'd already started to develop post trauma like
Speaker 3: symptoms from the incident At Crescent head where my colleagues were.
Speaker 3: Murdered that was the most was that that was In
Speaker 3: july ninety five and the rescue Was may ninety. Six
Speaker 3: SO i had already started to develop post trauma like
Speaker 3: symptoms AND i was chronically stressed by the time the
Speaker 3: rescue happened AND i realized now was the nail in
Speaker 3: the coffin pretty much. Mate, Yeah and after that things
Speaker 3: all turned. SOUTH i did develop full MOON ptsd and
Speaker 3: depression and suicidal. Ideation and on the sixth Of october ninety,
Speaker 3: six that was the DAY i decided in my life
Speaker 3: AND i went to. Work i'd kissed dead, goodbye kissed
Speaker 3: my little lord, goodbye and went to work and went
Speaker 3: towards a basroom to end my. Life and a colleague
Speaker 3: walked in And i've done a mental. CALCULATION i THINK
Speaker 3: i was eight seconds away from ending my life before
Speaker 3: the guy walked.
Speaker 2: In and this is all from the knock on effects
Speaker 2: of your, job, right.
Speaker 3: Well it. Is but WHAT i, realized And i've done
Speaker 3: a lot of work in the mental health sector for many.
Speaker 3: Years i've been A deputy commission The Mental Health. COMMISSION
Speaker 3: i currently work with a. Psychologist we run a great training,
Speaker 3: program AND i work with the cops on training program
Speaker 3: for the. Cops it's understanding that when you become burned
Speaker 3: out or chronically, stressed as you know from the, military
Speaker 3: you then become vulnerable to significantly traumatic events or potentially traumatic.
Speaker 3: Events it's when you're burned out that you are the
Speaker 3: most vulnerable and if something does, happen by then you
Speaker 3: really you haven't got anything left to be resilient. With you're,
Speaker 3: cooked and these significantly traumatic events they can smash, you
Speaker 3: and they. Did they smashed.
Speaker 2: Me but when did you? Realize when did you realize
Speaker 2: that you had a serious? Problem was it that day
Speaker 2: that you wanted to take your? Life or was there
Speaker 2: a moment where you for which is IF i need,
Speaker 2: HELP i need to and your help was to end your.
Speaker 2: Life and going back to that, moment you say someone
Speaker 2: walked in on. You how did they stop? You how
Speaker 2: close you say you? Were eight seconds? Away THERE'S.
Speaker 3: I was going to the door into our. Office across the,
Speaker 3: corridor which is a meter and a half across the
Speaker 3: corridor is a door to the. BATHROOM i was at
Speaker 3: the door to the office when a colleague walked in
Speaker 3: like almost, me looked at me ON u, okay AND
Speaker 3: i said, No i'm. NOT i use an, EXPLETIVE i, said,
Speaker 3: No i'm. NOT i realized THAT i was mentally. Unwell
Speaker 3: but because back then and still to this, day the
Speaker 3: stigma of declaring you mentally, UNWELL i knew IF i had,
Speaker 3: declared my career would be. Over AND i was terrified
Speaker 3: of losing my. Career like with respect to you and
Speaker 3: YOUR collexamt the, military it's your, life it's your sense
Speaker 3: of purpose you're Worth.
Speaker 2: Yeah it's your. Identity purpose is who you.
Speaker 3: Are so to lose that is. Terrifying which compounds the
Speaker 3: mental ill health you're. Experiencing you develop a fear which
Speaker 3: there's a term for, it YOUR hpa. Axis it's the
Speaker 3: way your body controls your. Stress SO i realized that
Speaker 3: MY hpa axis had been completely become, dysfunctional AND i
Speaker 3: was so slip. DEPRIVED i was using alcohol as the
Speaker 3: forms of. MEDICATION i was eating terrible, FOOD i was
Speaker 3: smoking like a. CHIMNEY i was doing everything, wrong but
Speaker 3: not knowing that the THINGS i was doing wrong we're
Speaker 3: having such a knock on. Effect So i'm trying to mask.
Speaker 2: Everything, yeah numb the, Pain numb everything that's going on
Speaker 2: inside of. You and this is ninety ninety.
Speaker 3: Six ninety, six, yeah, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Like you said back then though that it was, like you,
Speaker 2: know shut up and put, up and, yeah you man
Speaker 2: up and get grippy yourself and crack.
Speaker 3: On AND i realized now that that prior to, that
Speaker 3: policemen did take their own, lives AND i think part
Speaker 3: of the reason for that was the stigma of being mentally,
Speaker 3: unwell losing your, career everything that goes with losing, it
Speaker 3: it just becomes, unbearable and you, do you do develop
Speaker 3: a physical pain that is indescribable and, unbearable and the
Speaker 3: pain overwhelms every part of your.
Speaker 2: Life and you're still functioning normal even though so after
Speaker 2: that moment when you want to see your, life you
Speaker 2: just cracked on as.
Speaker 3: Normal, no that was.
Speaker 2: Did they give you time? Off did?
Speaker 3: They that was the last DAY i worked as an
Speaker 3: operational police. OFFICER i then was on sick. Leave that,
Speaker 3: NIGHT i was taken to the hospital before a crisis
Speaker 3: counselor because of these Nightmares i've been. Having i've been
Speaker 3: having horrible, nightmares not about hurting, me but hurting other
Speaker 3: people very close to. Me and WHEN i disclosed this
Speaker 3: to the, Counselor she's, gone oh my, goodness we're going
Speaker 3: to have to schedule ol what type of nightmares hurting family?
Speaker 3: Members so that's WHEN i, THOUGHT i can't risk my.
Speaker 3: FAMILY i need to protect.
Speaker 2: THEM i, mean you're, scared you were going to action.
Speaker 2: THAT i was.
Speaker 3: SCARED i was. TERRIFIED i was absolutely terrified that something
Speaker 3: was going to snap in me AND i wasn't prepared for.
Speaker 1: That.
Speaker 3: AUNT i couldn't risk my. FAMILY i don't THINK i would.
Speaker 3: EVER i KNOW i would never have done, anything BUT
Speaker 3: i wasn't prepared to risk. It so that's when that's
Speaker 3: the REASON i decided to end my. Life so that,
Speaker 3: night they wanted to schedule, me which is basically means
Speaker 3: they restrain you in a psychiatric. Hospital AND dev was
Speaker 3: with me and she, said, no, sorry you're Not you're
Speaker 3: not going to do that to my, husband Because dev
Speaker 3: knew that if they had scheduled, ME i would have
Speaker 3: taken my. Life so she took me home on the
Speaker 3: promise that she'd bring me back the next. Day and
Speaker 3: the next DAY i went to what they called a
Speaker 3: police medical officer who's a LOCAL, gp WHO i had
Speaker 3: a sister doing Post more than, THINGS i love the.
Speaker 3: Man he played rugby For scotland And i'm a rugby.
Speaker 3: Fanatic AND i Remember i'm in there And i'm sobbing
Speaker 3: And dev's with, me and he pulls a bottle Of
Speaker 3: scotch and a packet Of Winfield, blues so he poured
Speaker 3: me a big, swatch gives me a. Fact i'm there
Speaker 3: smoking scotching ball in eyes out. Heran the local psychiatrist
Speaker 3: who's only a one psychiatrist sent me straight up there
Speaker 3: and that was a really horrible. Experience i've got to say.
Speaker 3: Why just a shame and the, humiliation the. Guilt it
Speaker 3: was absolutely. HORRIBLE i just wanted to end it.
Speaker 2: There so these suicidal thoughts are still.
Speaker 3: Ongoing they are, THEN i think they're reinforcing him BECAUSE
Speaker 3: i felt so much. SHAME i just felt an over
Speaker 3: overwhelming sense of hopelessness and, worthlessness like beyond, comprehension and
Speaker 3: the psychiatrists were very. Blunt he, said i'll do you
Speaker 3: want to livety on a diet AND i, SAID i
Speaker 3: don't want to, die But i'm terrified of what's going to.
Speaker 3: HAPPEN i might hurt my. Family and he, said if
Speaker 3: you want to, Live i'll do my best to help.
Speaker 3: You but if you want to, DIE i honestly don't
Speaker 3: know what to. Do he, said your. Call you make
Speaker 3: a decision basically right, now what you want to. Do
Speaker 3: AND i SAID i want to. Live he, said, okay
Speaker 3: let's start. That and he started to talk ABOUT, ptsd
Speaker 3: WHICH i knew nothing, about started talking about. DEPRESSION i
Speaker 3: knew something about.
Speaker 2: DEPRESSION ptsd back then wasn't really a, thing you, know it, was,
Speaker 2: yeah you, know you suffer a little bit from mental health.
Speaker 3: Issues AND i had no. IDEA i had no. Idea
Speaker 3: so then he put me in a drug call, meteral
Speaker 3: which is such a strong sedative you can't form any
Speaker 3: intent to hurt you or. Anyone AND i was on
Speaker 3: that for two weeks AND i just become a, zombie absolute.
Speaker 3: ZOMBIE i could do is, smoke make, coffee so then
Speaker 3: it was a case of having to agree to see
Speaker 3: the psychiatrist three days a, week which was all so
Speaker 3: the local mental health, clinic which was also the local methadone.
Speaker 3: Clinic So i'd be sitting in the waiting room with
Speaker 3: all the local heroinautics who had arrested in. Charge how
Speaker 3: that made you feel oh so so, worthless so. WORTHLESS
Speaker 3: i was so ashamed of, it and that was really. Hard,
Speaker 3: Yeah and to leave home to go to that psychiatric
Speaker 3: afortment three times a, day it was probably the hardest
Speaker 3: Thing i've ever had to do in my. Life AND i,
Speaker 3: thought IF i don't, Go i'll never get. Better i've
Speaker 3: got to push through. It i've just got to do
Speaker 3: WHATEVER i can to get.
Speaker 2: Better and how supportive is your? Wife is she on
Speaker 2: you twenty four to? Seven is she at your?
Speaker 3: Side she has never left my side since pretty much
Speaker 3: the first day we've got, together and we're still. Together
Speaker 3: and she was, Phenomenal and it would have been so
Speaker 3: hard for. Her she had a really hard job young
Speaker 3: child and dead was investigating the sexu one fish abuse of.
Speaker 3: Children that was her, Job so she had a really tough.
Speaker 3: Job and she's trying to care for. Me she had
Speaker 3: no idea about mental. ILLNESS i had no worried about mental.
Speaker 3: ILLNESS i was on these, drugs, antidepressants and the best the,
Speaker 3: psychiatrists because basically do it was explaining WHAT ptsd, was
Speaker 3: what depression, was HOW i developed, it WHY i developed,
Speaker 3: it but what was the?
Speaker 2: Trigger why did you develop?
Speaker 3: It Crescent head was certainly the start of, It but
Speaker 3: the start of it was WHEN i became so chronically,
Speaker 3: stressed AND i became chronically stressed through a lot of
Speaker 3: issues at. Work AND i can look back through all
Speaker 3: that now AND i. HAVE i spent years analyzing, it
Speaker 3: working with clinicians to help me understand why why DID
Speaker 3: i end up so destroyed and WHAT i can, do
Speaker 3: not only to help me never go back, there but
Speaker 3: WHAT i can do to Help cops first, responded not
Speaker 3: get to WHERE i got.
Speaker 2: To and when you were going through, that how did
Speaker 2: the police force manage that with? You they sort of
Speaker 2: cut you?
Speaker 3: Off, yeah, yeah, yeah that's how it, was especially back.
Speaker 2: Then. Yeah, yeah that's WHY i, asked BECAUSE i know what, like,
Speaker 2: yeah you're on sick. Leave you, know he's no good to, us.
Speaker 3: No get rid of. It so eighteen months, Later i've
Speaker 3: got a fank call from headquarters congratulating Made i'm, gone
Speaker 3: what are you congratulating me? For and they, said your
Speaker 3: last day of work was two weeks? Ago And i'm,
Speaker 3: gone what are you talking? ABOUT i, Said i've never
Speaker 3: applied for any discharge and they, said not our. Problem
Speaker 3: all very, best say, later.
Speaker 2: You didn't know anything about. That not pre warns.
Speaker 3: Nothing some public servant from headquarters rings me and tells
Speaker 3: me when last day of services was, over and do.
Speaker 2: You come back onto the job or you just got
Speaker 2: you off the. Job and then all of a sudden
Speaker 2: you go back to work and they tell, You.
Speaker 3: I'm no packer. WORK i was at, Home i'm going to,
Speaker 3: paint got at. Home but the wonderful thing is today
Speaker 3: and there are police officers who have been diagnosed WITH,
Speaker 3: ptsd who are under current diagnosis OF, ptsd and someone
Speaker 3: medication who are still serving full operational duties and. Go
Speaker 3: that is absolutely. Fantastic AND i think those who have
Speaker 3: experienced mental ill health such AS ptsd or trauma related mental,
Speaker 3: illnesses if you've recovered from, it you have this amazing
Speaker 3: insight into what it's like and you know the warning,
Speaker 3: signs you know what you need to, do and so
Speaker 3: for YEARS i have been very determined about looking after
Speaker 3: my physical and psychological. HEALTH i know what we all
Speaker 3: need to do to make. Sure and the training program
Speaker 3: THAT i run for the, police and the training program
Speaker 3: my clinical psycholog AND i run is called operational. Readiness
Speaker 3: that need to be physically and psychologically ready to do your.
Speaker 3: Job as yours are special forces military, person you know
Speaker 3: the critical importance of being operationally ready because if you're.
Speaker 3: Not if you're, not the risk exponential to, you to your,
Speaker 3: teammates to, everybody to your, mission the risk to your.
Speaker 2: Colleagues.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah so that's that's about understanding how you become
Speaker 3: chronically stressed or burned, out what you need to do
Speaker 3: to minimize the risk of that, Developing what you can
Speaker 3: do yourself to reverse that so that you do not
Speaker 3: become exposed to traum related mental. Illnesses you can build up,
Speaker 3: resilience AND i like to use the term. ENDURANCE i
Speaker 3: like to build you build up physical and psychological endurance
Speaker 3: to cope with, crisis because as first, responders you are
Speaker 3: continually faced with crisis one after the, other so your
Speaker 3: ability to build resilience can be. Challenged so you've got
Speaker 3: to endure the, crisis and that becomes that is because
Speaker 3: you've got to be physically and psychologically as best you can,
Speaker 3: be simple as.
Speaker 2: Because it's crisis after crisis after. Crisis enjoy that and
Speaker 2: flipping that for, resilience, right because if you don't fit
Speaker 2: that to resilience is going to have the detrimental effect
Speaker 2: that they had on.
Speaker 3: You deb and we were married In. Paris we spent
Speaker 3: five months riding a pushbikes Around. Europe we rode six
Speaker 3: thousand kilometers Around europe and our. Pushbikes so we came
Speaker 3: back to work In september nineteen ninety. Three we were
Speaker 3: both physically and psychologically at top of our. Games, okay
Speaker 3: so pretty much About december ninety, THREE i got involved
Speaker 3: in an investigation that was the, biggest most intense investigation
Speaker 3: of my whole police. Career and that was the starting
Speaker 3: point of the domino. EFFECT i can see WHERE i
Speaker 3: started to go from what the mental health continue where
Speaker 3: you break your psychological health into four. Colors coming back
Speaker 3: from our, HONEYMOON i was in the green. Zone probably
Speaker 3: By may the next YEAR i was into the yellow
Speaker 3: teetering on the orange. ZONE deb had a lot of
Speaker 3: crisis with our first. Born she was critically. Unwell that didn't.
Speaker 3: Help and then there's this situation at. Work there's a
Speaker 3: lot of conflict at Work Crescent head because of all
Speaker 3: the things that happened To Crescent. HEAD i was in
Speaker 3: the emergency action team that. Night pete was, Murdered Bob
Speaker 3: spears was. Murdered pete was a made of. Mine there
Speaker 3: were issues THAT i believe were relative To pete's murder
Speaker 3: THAT i think could have been. Avoided there was a
Speaker 3: lot of things happened post their murders that caused a
Speaker 3: lot of conflict and caused a lot of moral. Injury to,
Speaker 3: me is the guilt that not? Guilt, no it was
Speaker 3: a fact THAT i think that there's a there's a
Speaker 3: whole story about, it and where the lack of communication
Speaker 3: was significant In pete's. Murder had they've had proper, communication
Speaker 3: and you know the operations mission you've been, on communication
Speaker 3: is absolutely, vital it is and they were calling for,
Speaker 3: assistance but of course the radio is a radio black.
Speaker 3: Spot communications were breaking. Down, Pete bob was. Murdered pete's
Speaker 3: trying to get help for his. Mate he's broken into
Speaker 3: a house to try and get to a, telephone there's
Speaker 3: a breakdown of communication with the. Homeowner pete's gone back,
Speaker 3: outside was in the process of reloading his. GUN i
Speaker 3: think the gun can try and take the government out
Speaker 3: because they were ambushed by a gunment and the government
Speaker 3: stalked him and shot him and killed. Him so these
Speaker 3: were issues THAT i believe the coroner needed to know,
Speaker 3: about AND i had that in my, statement but that
Speaker 3: evidence Wasn't how would you, say people didn't want that
Speaker 3: evidence to come, Out so there's a lot of conflict over.
Speaker 3: THAT a whole raft things happened which caused me to
Speaker 3: go deep into the orange, zone into the chronic stress,
Speaker 3: zone and then struggling with, that trying to do my,
Speaker 3: work trying to do this. Investigation, still it all just
Speaker 3: caught me to be burnt, out as simple as. That
Speaker 3: but then the rescue, was as you, say the straw
Speaker 3: that broke the camel's, back trying to hang, on trying
Speaker 3: to hang. On alcohol was a major contributor to my.
Speaker 3: Downfall sleep deprivation was a major contributor all these. THINGS
Speaker 3: i realized now the physiological impact on, me HOW i
Speaker 3: broke down physically and, PSYCHOLOGICALLY i can map it absolutely map.
Speaker 2: It and when you, left, well when you got told
Speaker 2: that your your last days were two weeks, ago what
Speaker 2: went through your?
Speaker 3: MIND i just want to end it.
Speaker 2: Again so you're going back into that. Spiral, Yeah.
Speaker 3: And there was no, psychiatrist there's no, psychologists there was
Speaker 3: no one to help me accept dev just she knew
Speaker 3: that this is not good and she just hung on to.
Speaker 2: Me so you literally grab your, box pack up your stuff.
Speaker 3: And you never never went, back never went back except except.
Speaker 2: So they didn't even have you. Back they. Wouldn't they
Speaker 2: didn't even bring you in to tell you. That a
Speaker 2: Phone accordion said.
Speaker 3: From a headquarters In, Sydney i'm A Coffs. Harbor. Yeah
Speaker 3: there was no, communication, nothing just discarded, like oh here's a,
Speaker 3: crap which wasn't wasn't. Helpful but the big INVESTIGATION i
Speaker 3: started it was a fire up in a little village
Speaker 3: way west Of Coff's harbor and a hall had burnt.
Speaker 3: Down An aboriginal elder's home had burnt down beside. IT
Speaker 3: i eventually charged the hall owner with burning both buildings,
Speaker 3: down and eventually he was found. Guilty and it was
Speaker 3: the biggest. Investigation it was phenomenal and to have that,
Speaker 3: conviction AND i went back to make sure THAT i
Speaker 3: saw that trial. Out and funny, enough the granddaughter of
Speaker 3: the of the, beautiful average and older whose home burnt,
Speaker 3: down she married the little boy who was saved in the.
Speaker 3: Drain so you were still in touch with The oh, yeah,
Speaker 3: yeah every. Day. Really we went to his wedding.
Speaker 2: And immediately after do you build a relationship with?
Speaker 3: Him? Yeah he struggled and clearly he DEVELOPED ptsd horrifically,
Speaker 3: wow and his life was hell for years and years
Speaker 3: after and he kept got the rest in. Charge many
Speaker 3: TIMES i used to write court references for him to
Speaker 3: try and keep him out of, jail and you, know
Speaker 3: he went to boys homes and adult. Jails and then
Speaker 3: one day he made a. Decision he said to his,
Speaker 3: Mum i'm never getting in trouble ever. Again and he never.
Speaker 3: Has but to go to his, wedding to be back
Speaker 3: With Betty's, Allie betty and The stuart family and With jay's.
Speaker 3: Family that was a special. DAY i can.
Speaker 2: Image and how do you how do you start or
Speaker 2: when do you start coming out of you, know because
Speaker 2: now you know your your you're, zillion your your your
Speaker 2: mindsets in a good. Place you still suffer FROM. Ptsd
Speaker 2: so when did that start to? Turn when did you
Speaker 2: start to turn the turn the tables and really come
Speaker 2: out of? It and how did you do?
Speaker 3: THAT i think that a number of things. HAPPENED i
Speaker 3: was always searching to get my sense of worth, back
Speaker 3: AND i became very successful in new. CAREERS i became
Speaker 3: a marine, investigator became qualified as marine. Surveyor on the
Speaker 3: face OF i was. Successful but In march two thousand and,
Speaker 3: nine my girls are nine and, fourteen we went on
Speaker 3: one way tickets To. England we bought a yacht and
Speaker 3: we sailed that back To. Australia, YEAH i still remember the.
Speaker 3: Morning at this, stage we're crossing The Pacific. OCEAN i
Speaker 3: still remember this morning as clear AS i. Remember. Ji the,
Speaker 3: moon the full moon was setting as the sun was coming,
Speaker 3: out AND i looked at the back of the, boat
Speaker 3: And i'm actually videoing it As i'm doing, it And
Speaker 3: i've Gone i'm throwing all my past behind, Me i'm
Speaker 3: throwing it. Overboard i'm just letting it.
Speaker 2: GO i made a constant decision to do.
Speaker 3: That, Yeah AND i look back to the bow of
Speaker 3: the boat and we're. Heading we're heading for home And i'm,
Speaker 3: gone there's my future summary ahead of? Me is my? Future,
Speaker 3: wow that's.
Speaker 2: Phenomenal and how would you describe from your experience what IS.
Speaker 3: Ptsd it's a, living breathing hell of an, imaginable indescribable
Speaker 3: pain and a complete sense of no, control and you're
Speaker 3: desperate for any any form of. Control your life is
Speaker 3: just spinning out of control and you can't stop.
Speaker 2: It and what are the first steps to come out of?
Speaker 3: It acknowledging? It acknowledgment, ye accepting that you are mentally?
Speaker 3: Unwell and how hard is that to?
Speaker 2: Accept it's hard and brutally honest with yourself to SAY
Speaker 2: i need help in control of my mind and not
Speaker 2: in control of.
Speaker 3: MYSELF i have completely lost control of my. Life it
Speaker 3: is for, me probably one of the hardest. Things AND
Speaker 3: i didn't KNOW i had ptsdwo until the psychiatrist explained
Speaker 3: THAT i had it and what the, symptoms all this
Speaker 3: sort of, stuff AND i, go that makes. Sense but
Speaker 3: AS i, SAID i struggled for years to accept why
Speaker 3: DID i become so? UNWELL i think for me that
Speaker 3: was probably the greatest moment WHEN i got. Okay NOW
Speaker 3: i can accept it because when you can accept something
Speaker 3: and you understand, it then you can become at peace with.
Speaker 3: It And i'm very content with my. PAST i completely
Speaker 3: accept my, past AND i say that gives me great
Speaker 3: confidence for the future Because i've my past is my.
Speaker 3: Past it's.
Speaker 2: Okay and now that you're in charge and you're in,
Speaker 2: control what do you do? Now what's next for? You
Speaker 2: just to do these, programs to really try and get
Speaker 2: the message out, there the word out, there because the
Speaker 2: more needs to be. Done let's be. Honest of course
Speaker 2: it don't, loads of.
Speaker 3: Course it, does and it's for. Me it's the start
Speaker 3: and one Day i'll pass the bat. Nover i'm still
Speaker 3: playing my. RUGBY i still love my. RUGBY i trained
Speaker 3: with indigenous guys At redfern three mornings a week with boxing.
Speaker 3: There it's a beautiful social. PROGRAM i have an amazing
Speaker 3: relationship with the police and The Police. Association i'm so
Speaker 3: proud of WHAT i do and.
Speaker 2: You can see.
Speaker 3: That, Yeah i'm passionate about. It my Colleague dave is
Speaker 3: passionate about. It he has been amazing and the work
Speaker 3: he does in his clinical clinical. Practice he helps a
Speaker 3: lot of men in particular who are very damaged and
Speaker 3: he's he's making huge changes to their life and those
Speaker 3: men and, women not only military but first responders who
Speaker 3: they deserve to be cared for because of the sacrifices they've.
Speaker 3: Made we owe it to them big.
Speaker 2: Time. Mate thank you so, much it's been such an interesting. Conversation,
Speaker 2: Alan your jen keep, inspiring keep getting the good message out.
Speaker 2: There thank you so.
Speaker 3: Much thanks the. Opportunity, yeah thank, you very. Grateful thank.
Speaker 2: You alan's best selling book is Called The cost Of.
Speaker 2: BRAVERY i link the details in the show. Notes thank
Speaker 2: you so much for joining me On. Headgame if you
Speaker 2: enjoyed this, episode make sure you're subscribed so you don't
Speaker 2: miss any of our incredible, stories and leave me a
Speaker 2: review wherever you're. Listening I'm Matt. Middleton catch you again next.
Speaker 2: Time