WEBVTT - When a detective takes on the system: Graeme Simpfendorfer Pt. 2

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<v Speaker 1>The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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<v Speaker 1>Detective see a side of life the average persons never

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<v Speaker 1>exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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<v Speaker 1>For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what I did for a living. I was a

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<v Speaker 1>homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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<v Speaker 1>The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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<v Speaker 1>from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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<v Speaker 1>and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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<v Speaker 1>of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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<v Speaker 1>no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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<v Speaker 1>Join me now as I take you into this world.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to part two of my conversation with Graham Simpendorfer.

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<v Speaker 1>Before we resume the interview, as I mentioned in part one,

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<v Speaker 1>I need to note this conversation was recorded before Graham's

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<v Speaker 1>case went to trial. In the time since this record

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<v Speaker 1>with him, Graham's case has resulted in an acquittal. However,

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<v Speaker 1>the same individual also face trials over a number of

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<v Speaker 1>other historical sexual offenses. He pleaded not guilty to all

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<v Speaker 1>the charges he has found guilty of sexual offenses relating

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<v Speaker 1>to four victims. The defendant maintains his innocence and has

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<v Speaker 1>filed the motion to appeal those convictions. Now, let's get

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<v Speaker 1>back into the conversation. Graham, Welcome back to part two.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks mate again. I'm going to keep putting these apologies

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<v Speaker 1>in because I know, yeah, I'm asking you to relive

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<v Speaker 1>some traumatic stuff. But as we're both discussed, it's good

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<v Speaker 1>that people are talking about these type of things.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think that's why I want to come out

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<v Speaker 2>and tell my stories to try and get a light

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<v Speaker 2>on it that this does happen. And there's probably a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of men out there in my age, in their

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<v Speaker 2>fifties that have been through a similar experience, if not worse,

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<v Speaker 2>that are still trying to deal with this on their own.

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<v Speaker 2>And I hope that by sharing what happened to me

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<v Speaker 2>and part of my story either gives them some comfort

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<v Speaker 2>that they're not alone. But if they want to get help,

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<v Speaker 2>then there is really good help out there. There's really

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<v Speaker 2>good places for counseling, and that's judicial system aside. The

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<v Speaker 2>court process, as we've talked about, is completely different, but

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<v Speaker 2>there is help out there. You don't have to just

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<v Speaker 2>report to the cops to get help. You can just

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<v Speaker 2>contact one of.

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<v Speaker 1>The Yeah, that's a good message to get out because

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<v Speaker 1>sometimes that barrier is that I'm not ready to go

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<v Speaker 1>to the cops, but you want help.

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<v Speaker 2>But yeah, you don't have to. You can disclose to

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<v Speaker 2>one of the practitioners that the centers against violence that

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<v Speaker 2>are around the country, or I think there's one eight

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<v Speaker 2>hundred respect that you can dial. But you know, there's

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<v Speaker 2>supports lines that you can call. But that doesn't mean

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<v Speaker 2>that the police is going to get called. Yes, it's

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<v Speaker 2>victim first.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I think that's important and speaking to a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of people in that field of criminal investigation, the victim's

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<v Speaker 1>power has been taken away when they're abused as children,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's important they have control on what the processes are.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think people in that line of work will

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<v Speaker 1>acknowledge that. And they're not going to railroad you into

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<v Speaker 1>just because you reach out. They're not going to railroad

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<v Speaker 1>you into. You've got to report this.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, one hundred percent. And you know, the people that

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<v Speaker 2>have been doing it for a long time know that exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>The statistics are not great on those that actually disclose,

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<v Speaker 2>to those that then make a police statement, to those

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<v Speaker 2>that then make it to a charge, then those that

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<v Speaker 2>actually get into a court room, and those that are convicted.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's look again, I need to check on

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<v Speaker 2>things like less than three percent.

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<v Speaker 1>Those figures flow around in my head. I think that's

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<v Speaker 1>you're roughly on the right right number there.

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<v Speaker 2>So some of the some of the victims that would

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<v Speaker 2>sit before me when I was in charge at the

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<v Speaker 2>sex offense Unit, the first thing I'd say is what

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<v Speaker 2>is it you want to get out of this? What

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<v Speaker 2>is it you want? Because if you want a conviction

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<v Speaker 2>at court, we'll try our dartist and what will work

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<v Speaker 2>absolute butts off to try and get that. But the reality,

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<v Speaker 2>hard reality is that, particularly if it's a one on

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<v Speaker 2>one fence that's historical, you're up against it from the start.

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<v Speaker 2>But I would say to them, but if you want

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<v Speaker 2>me to drag this person in, arrest them and make

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<v Speaker 2>them undergo an interview for a good couple of hours

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<v Speaker 2>and make them for a really uncomfortable I'm your man.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely I can do that.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think that's a fear and I hear it's

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<v Speaker 1>time and time again when that knock on the door.

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<v Speaker 1>And I like saying that when we're talking about this subject,

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<v Speaker 1>that anyone that's offended in this nature just wait. You

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<v Speaker 1>don't know how long it will be, but someone might

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<v Speaker 1>come knocking on your door and we'll be police wanting

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<v Speaker 1>to ask you some very uncomfortable questions.

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<v Speaker 2>Correct, And that's part of again, why why I'm here.

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<v Speaker 2>You give people some strength ort to know you're not alone.

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<v Speaker 2>There's plenty of us victim survivors out there that will

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<v Speaker 2>support you and the police and hopefully the victims support services.

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<v Speaker 2>But they need some more resourcing. They need some more.

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<v Speaker 2>We just spoke about the amount of police resources. They

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<v Speaker 2>need more. They need more counselors, they need more funding

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<v Speaker 2>to deal with this because it's only the more that

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<v Speaker 2>we disclose the more the people come forward. You don't

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<v Speaker 2>want them waiting for counseling or having to go on

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<v Speaker 2>we can't get to you for six weeks.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I've come away after being in this role for

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<v Speaker 1>a long time and speaking to people from all sides

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<v Speaker 1>of the law and the courts and the prison system

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<v Speaker 1>and all that. If we really want to make a

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<v Speaker 1>difference on crime, let's reduce child sexual assault. Because you

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<v Speaker 1>look at how many people are in prison because of

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<v Speaker 1>child sexual assault, or how many people whose life has

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<v Speaker 1>gone off off track with mental health issues because of

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<v Speaker 1>child sexual sexual assaults. We can make the place a

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<v Speaker 1>better place if we can reduce the nature of the.

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<v Speaker 2>Crime exactly, generational change. It's got to start. Why not start?

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<v Speaker 1>And statistically you talk three percent that starts from the

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<v Speaker 1>reporting of it to the conviction at court, which is

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<v Speaker 1>extremely low and disappointing, but that's the nature of the

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<v Speaker 1>type of investigations. But also statistically, what thirty one years

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<v Speaker 1>before a male victim of a sexual abuse child sexual

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<v Speaker 1>abuse comes forth and disclay and one in five.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they're just scary to think about it and quite

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<v Speaker 2>confronting really to think that one in five met boys

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<v Speaker 2>have been abused at some point one in three women

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<v Speaker 2>or girls And it's scary stats. And that's got to change.

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<v Speaker 2>And if we don't start trying to do something about

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<v Speaker 2>it now, how many victims more we're going to see.

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<v Speaker 2>We don't want it to be our own kids. But

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<v Speaker 2>you know, it's got to start, and we've got to

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<v Speaker 2>start by talking about it and normalizing. I guess that

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<v Speaker 2>it's okay to be a victim not giving that shame

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<v Speaker 2>attached to it and just let anyone know that it's

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<v Speaker 2>going to be okay. I think that's the biggest thing

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<v Speaker 2>for me, was you know that those close to you

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<v Speaker 2>and those who really care about you have got you.

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<v Speaker 2>They've got your back, and you know. There's that many

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<v Speaker 2>times I've I think even yesterday I said to my partner,

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<v Speaker 2>just not having a good day. I think the anxiety

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<v Speaker 2>of talking about this and adding yourself to it all

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<v Speaker 2>publicly for the first time, how you're feeling, I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>having a good day. But she's like, yeah, I've got you,

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<v Speaker 2>It's okay, and that's normal. So to lean into that

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<v Speaker 2>support was hard because for so long have the mask

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<v Speaker 2>on and just try and deal with it yourself. It's

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<v Speaker 2>been life changing for me to acknowledge, yes, this happened

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<v Speaker 2>to me, wasn't my fault, and I'm going to be

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<v Speaker 2>okay by telling someone. And I made the choice then

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<v Speaker 2>to go that next step and take on the judicial system.

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<v Speaker 2>And it does feel like I'm taking on the judicial system.

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<v Speaker 2>It's less about me taking on him. I'm actually fighting

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<v Speaker 2>a system that is geared towards he accused, and I'm

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<v Speaker 2>fighting at every single well, it's been nearly four years.

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<v Speaker 1>And you feel like you're fighting that you understand the system,

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<v Speaker 1>you've been part of the system, and it's still a

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<v Speaker 1>struggle for you accepting what's going on with the system.

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<v Speaker 1>Imagine people that have no idea what the system is

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<v Speaker 1>all about and would naively walk in and say, hey,

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<v Speaker 1>I wanted to disclose this. So we're all going to

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<v Speaker 1>get this resolved. And it's not that simple. I think

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<v Speaker 1>people would be interested in you taking this through the system.

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<v Speaker 1>From your perspective as a person that's reporting the crime

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<v Speaker 1>to police, talk us through what you have to go through.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so first, first things first, you've got to have

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<v Speaker 2>the courage to walk into a cop shop or pick

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<v Speaker 2>up the phone and report. You know, I picked up

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<v Speaker 2>the phone to a colleague from the border that has

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<v Speaker 2>worked with me. You know, we've done entries forced entries

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<v Speaker 2>together as cross border cops. To pick up the phone

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<v Speaker 2>to him and say, hey, I'm reaching out to disclose

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<v Speaker 2>and I want to make a statement. He was flawed.

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<v Speaker 2>So it was the first step. But then okay, we'll

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<v Speaker 2>get someone to contact you. Because it was a Wogger

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<v Speaker 2>police investigation where it happened, they needed to deal with it.

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<v Speaker 2>So we'll have someone that's already on the case, because

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<v Speaker 2>you remember I said someone had already come forward. Oh,

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<v Speaker 2>they'll get the officer in charge of that case to

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<v Speaker 2>be in contact with you. And he was great, Blake,

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<v Speaker 2>he was, will come over to see you. We'll come

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<v Speaker 2>to ally, we'll see you. So we made a time

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<v Speaker 2>for an appointment. I've got to say, like the anxiety

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<v Speaker 2>and stress for the days leading up to that appointment

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<v Speaker 2>was I'd never had an anxiety attack, and holy shit,

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<v Speaker 2>you know to know that day's coming, and I've got

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<v Speaker 2>to tell my story for someone that's.

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<v Speaker 1>I put in perspective the things you would have seen

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<v Speaker 1>and done in policing, and that knowing that you've got

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<v Speaker 1>to actually sit down with the police officer. You understand

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<v Speaker 1>the police. But that was so terrifying that you had

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<v Speaker 1>a panic attack in the day leading up to.

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<v Speaker 2>So confronting because you're dealing with your childhood trauma.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, Okay, So it's not Graham, the hard ass detective sergeant,

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<v Speaker 1>it's the child.

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<v Speaker 2>At that stage, I wanted it to be the hard

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<v Speaker 2>ass put the mask on and then get clinical about it.

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<v Speaker 2>And there was parts that I did, but there was parts.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I needed needed the tissue box to let

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<v Speaker 2>it out because you're reliving it, so you're unlocking that trauma.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think that's what brought the anxiety of it's

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<v Speaker 2>actually fourteen year old Graham that's making this statement. And yes,

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<v Speaker 2>there's the ad me that's been done, you know, some

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<v Speaker 2>pretty scary stuff and trained specifically on how to deal

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<v Speaker 2>with fear and how to deal with active shooter incidents

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<v Speaker 2>and being the person running towards you stop the killing.

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<v Speaker 2>That training, But then to make a statement that's your

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<v Speaker 2>own vulnerability because it's about you being a kid.

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<v Speaker 1>You felt like you're back. Is that forth in your

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<v Speaker 1>old's right?

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<v Speaker 2>You know? And if I had my time again, I

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<v Speaker 2>probably should have told others close to me that I

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<v Speaker 2>was doing that, but it was something I felt I

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to do on my own. Probably in hindsight now

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<v Speaker 2>I've actually opened up too close friends and family that

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<v Speaker 2>I should have actually got support to do that, but

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<v Speaker 2>there was just something in me.

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<v Speaker 1>Someone longer support you just I'll do this.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll do it.

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<v Speaker 1>I've just given a statement. Yeah that's right, statements, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>And again the police then that that dealt with me

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<v Speaker 2>on that day Blake and his colleague from They're amazing.

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<v Speaker 2>They are very mindful of who I was and obviously

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<v Speaker 2>the history I had, and I'd investigated just as much

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<v Speaker 2>as they had. But this was the hardest one because

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<v Speaker 2>I've got to play the role as a victim. But

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<v Speaker 2>all the little things that I knew that needed to

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<v Speaker 2>go in the statement I tried. I bought along things

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<v Speaker 2>to help corroborate where I was in my life, Like

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<v Speaker 2>I've got a draw full of medals from gymnasts that

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<v Speaker 2>so when I know it's before this, pharto and I

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<v Speaker 2>know it's before this. And look, my mum had kept everything,

0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:46.080
<v Speaker 2>like everything, every paper clipping, everything, which ended up being

0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:49.240
<v Speaker 2>absolute God send to narrow down the times because the

0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:52.720
<v Speaker 2>police you want to know what date this happened, as

0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:56.320
<v Speaker 2>you charge sheet says on this particular date or between

0:11:56.440 --> 0:11:59.000
<v Speaker 2>this date and this date. So I was able to

0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:01.840
<v Speaker 2>take all that along with me. I've done my homework,

0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:05.160
<v Speaker 2>but I was still anxious as a little hell.

0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:06.360
<v Speaker 1>To type up your own stuff.

0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:10.160
<v Speaker 2>What's I think Blake had said, Nah, I think let's

0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:14.000
<v Speaker 2>just let the process take its course as it should.

0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:16.400
<v Speaker 1>Be, probably carrying a different more weight. If the police

0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:18.560
<v Speaker 1>were there and yeah, then they could be in the

0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:21.680
<v Speaker 1>witness box and being questioned about how you reacted.

0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:24.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think so we just followed the book and

0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:28.120
<v Speaker 2>got to respect that that was just all by the book.

0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:32.040
<v Speaker 2>But you know, after I can't remember after a lot

0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:34.880
<v Speaker 2>of pages later, in a few hours of telling my

0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:38.200
<v Speaker 2>statement to the police and signing it and walking out,

0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:40.560
<v Speaker 2>I still vividly remember walking out of the Aubrey Crop

0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:46.720
<v Speaker 2>shop and and the weight was gone, or explain that

0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:50.680
<v Speaker 2>to me. Well, for so many you know, for so

0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:54.000
<v Speaker 2>many years since that that lecture where it all came back.

0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:58.040
<v Speaker 2>We're talking years, years and years. I think three to

0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:00.880
<v Speaker 2>five years or something like that. I think I lost

0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:02.400
<v Speaker 2>a few years in there somewhere. But it was a

0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:04.680
<v Speaker 2>significant amount of time of carrying it on your own

0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:07.920
<v Speaker 2>and trying to deal with it. I was able to

0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:10.320
<v Speaker 2>tell my story to someone else on paper, and it

0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:15.720
<v Speaker 2>was like it was a shared story. Now that's that's

0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:17.760
<v Speaker 2>yours now to deal with. I'm not alone and carrying

0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:21.440
<v Speaker 2>this weight anymore. It was a physical response of feeling

0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:23.520
<v Speaker 2>like that weight had lifted as I walked back to

0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:25.800
<v Speaker 2>my car, and I'm like, I can leave that back

0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:27.720
<v Speaker 2>there now as well. I can actually leave that with

0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:31.400
<v Speaker 2>them to deal with. I've told them my story. It's

0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:33.679
<v Speaker 2>going to take its process, and I guess that's the

0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:36.480
<v Speaker 2>next point of what we're talking about, is then the

0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:41.040
<v Speaker 2>police got to do their investigation. And the expectation versus reality.

0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:46.640
<v Speaker 1>Well, you would have struggled because you'd know what needed

0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:49.240
<v Speaker 1>to be done, and I would imagine you'd be say,

0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:50.480
<v Speaker 1>when are you going to do this? When are you

0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:52.640
<v Speaker 1>going to do that? You would be pain.

0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:54.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, it was almost you know, these are the

0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:57.319
<v Speaker 2>people that can corroborate that paragraph. These are people to

0:13:57.360 --> 0:14:00.200
<v Speaker 2>corroborate that parent did the investigation plan, here's this is

0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:03.200
<v Speaker 2>that And you know, look, I volunteered to the police,

0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:06.000
<v Speaker 2>and I was very adamant, I said at the right time.

0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:09.520
<v Speaker 2>I said, I'm I'm willing and I'm up for ringing him.

0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:12.800
<v Speaker 2>And I hadn't spoken to this guy in a long

0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:16.240
<v Speaker 2>long time, and I had come across him, but it

0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:18.640
<v Speaker 2>had been a long time since I'd even spoken with

0:14:18.720 --> 0:14:21.080
<v Speaker 2>him and didn't know his phone number anything. But there

0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:22.160
<v Speaker 2>was a way to find that out.

0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:26.640
<v Speaker 1>So this this was to gather additional evidence or corroborative evidence.

0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:30.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I hope to confront him and you take

0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:34.320
<v Speaker 2>that power back, but obtain some evidence with the police's

0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:36.480
<v Speaker 2>help with a warrant. They're going to warrant for me

0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:40.240
<v Speaker 2>to ring him and record that conversation, so you know,

0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:44.800
<v Speaker 2>to try and corroborate and give weight to my statement,

0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:47.000
<v Speaker 2>which is which is confronting him over what I did

0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:50.800
<v Speaker 2>in the hope that he would admit it or give

0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:54.440
<v Speaker 2>some indication to something that would help the court form

0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:56.520
<v Speaker 2>the view that it's beyond a reasonable doubt that that

0:14:56.600 --> 0:14:57.080
<v Speaker 2>did occur.

0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:02.480
<v Speaker 1>How did you feel before making call, the.

0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:05.120
<v Speaker 2>Actual physical call of Kareem, Oh, my god, I thought

0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:06.760
<v Speaker 2>I had an anxiety attack making a statement.

0:15:07.080 --> 0:15:10.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I would imagine that would have been pressure.

0:15:10.440 --> 0:15:15.480
<v Speaker 2>I've asked people to do this before, and I now

0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:18.640
<v Speaker 2>completely understand what I was actually asking them to do,

0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:22.160
<v Speaker 2>because again you remember I said I locked it away,

0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:25.560
<v Speaker 2>and even asking people to do that didn't bring it

0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:28.360
<v Speaker 2>back for me. But here I am now as a victim,

0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:30.880
<v Speaker 2>and I volunteered, and my intention was to try and

0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:33.840
<v Speaker 2>get enough evidence that this guy had no choice but

0:15:33.920 --> 0:15:36.720
<v Speaker 2>to plead guilty, and hopefully if other people come forward,

0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:39.040
<v Speaker 2>it would save everyone from going through a trial. That

0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:42.360
<v Speaker 2>was my intent, still trying to protect others, because I

0:15:42.400 --> 0:15:44.640
<v Speaker 2>knew that the process of a trial it's an absolute

0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:49.720
<v Speaker 2>shit show. It's traumatizing. Again and again there's delays that's traumatizing.

0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:52.640
<v Speaker 2>So we'd locked it in for a particular day and

0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:56.320
<v Speaker 2>time and again that'd come over to where I was

0:15:56.400 --> 0:16:01.440
<v Speaker 2>in Aubury, and that night before really didn't get much

0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:05.720
<v Speaker 2>sleep at all, and I think I can't remember. I

0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:07.440
<v Speaker 2>think i'd fragmented something. Was I booked in for a

0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:10.240
<v Speaker 2>one o'clock phone call because they had to record that

0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:16.080
<v Speaker 2>conversation and not having any sleep and the anxiety of

0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:19.920
<v Speaker 2>it all, and i'd actually gone through with I mentioned before.

0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:22.520
<v Speaker 2>Patrick Tidmarsh was the man who was the lecturer at

0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:25.880
<v Speaker 2>the Police Academy when all this came back. He had

0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:28.320
<v Speaker 2>moved over to the UK, I think at that stage,

0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:32.040
<v Speaker 2>and was lecturing the UK Police about best practice models

0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:35.280
<v Speaker 2>on this. I'd rung him because I disclosed to him

0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:37.400
<v Speaker 2>after that lecture and I said, look, I want to

0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:40.640
<v Speaker 2>ring this guy and I want to confront him. How

0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:43.600
<v Speaker 2>my best attackle this conversation to a take the powerback

0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:46.640
<v Speaker 2>and try and get some evidence out of just leaning

0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:49.760
<v Speaker 2>on him that I'm now the one in control and

0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:52.840
<v Speaker 2>get him to either admit or give some evidence that

0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:56.080
<v Speaker 2>would help. So we structured a conversation that took that

0:16:56.160 --> 0:17:00.440
<v Speaker 2>power back immediately in the phone call. And so I'm

0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:02.520
<v Speaker 2>rehearsing this the night before. How am I going to be?

0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:05.440
<v Speaker 2>Has the emotion going to be? You know, don't show

0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:08.000
<v Speaker 2>and you don't let him know that you're struggling and

0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:10.440
<v Speaker 2>just take that power back. And easier said than done.

0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:14.040
<v Speaker 2>But we got to think about twelve thirty in the

0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:17.320
<v Speaker 2>afternoon and the cops still hadn't arrived, and I think

0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:20.320
<v Speaker 2>I've got a text message, you know, seem we're running

0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:21.560
<v Speaker 2>bit late. We're just going to go grab a bite

0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:28.080
<v Speaker 2>tweet And I'm like, yeah, really completely innocent. And that's

0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:30.720
<v Speaker 2>fine because that's the relationship we had, you know, nicknames,

0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:33.480
<v Speaker 2>and they've known me, and I understand that. But from

0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:35.440
<v Speaker 2>a victim's point of view, I went, oh my god,

0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:37.280
<v Speaker 2>one o'clock.

0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:40.480
<v Speaker 1>You cringe that. I cringe, like there's sometimes and I'm

0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:43.800
<v Speaker 1>not you speak highly. Yeah, of course, yeah, that's just

0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:48.399
<v Speaker 1>but my thing is and this is just the little

0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:51.560
<v Speaker 1>things that you wait for your lunch after if you've

0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:53.000
<v Speaker 1>got someone hanging on that.

0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:55.000
<v Speaker 2>And I never I never brought it up with him.

0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:56.560
<v Speaker 2>In fantasy to them, but we'll.

0:17:56.440 --> 0:17:57.880
<v Speaker 1>Give I'll give him a wrap and the slap.

0:17:58.000 --> 0:18:00.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, but it was just it's just I think

0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:03.800
<v Speaker 2>it highlights that for me, everything how sensitive for me.

0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:07.080
<v Speaker 2>That rocked me. And again, you know, I've done all

0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:10.840
<v Speaker 2>these investigations for nearly thirty years, and that rocked me.

0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:14.200
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, oh god, I've now been pushed back to when. Yeah,

0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:16.480
<v Speaker 2>because I was ready for that one o'clock. Okay, it's

0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:20.560
<v Speaker 2>come as come as comes come. And and I've probably

0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:24.520
<v Speaker 2>done that to people myself in homicide or robbery or

0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:28.520
<v Speaker 2>sex offenses where you've unintentionally said something that was just

0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:30.399
<v Speaker 2>bau run of the mill. I just need to go

0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:33.280
<v Speaker 2>get lunch and then we'll be with you, as opposed

0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:35.000
<v Speaker 2>to we're just call behind time and really sorry, it

0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:36.200
<v Speaker 2>will be there soon or whatever.

0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:39.399
<v Speaker 1>And this only came from I learned from people that

0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:45.240
<v Speaker 1>were my mentors, and that that says little things that

0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:48.159
<v Speaker 1>can just rattle someone. Yeah, even if you're dealing with

0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:52.000
<v Speaker 1>criminal informants, it's yeah, and it's not all about it's

0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:54.000
<v Speaker 1>got to be on time. It's just those little things

0:18:54.000 --> 0:19:00.240
<v Speaker 1>that you know someone's struggling. Just smooth as much as possible. Yeah,

0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:02.760
<v Speaker 1>and that's that's delay. When you look at it, we'll

0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:05.879
<v Speaker 1>do it really matter, maybe not to the outside but

0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:07.960
<v Speaker 1>to the person going through what you were going through.

0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:09.239
<v Speaker 1>It was. It was a big thing.

0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:11.320
<v Speaker 2>And the impact that could have had on the phone

0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:13.240
<v Speaker 2>call or then the evidence.

0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:14.240
<v Speaker 1>Because you're your rattle.

0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:18.280
<v Speaker 2>So I had to get my ship together and was fine.

0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:20.320
<v Speaker 2>And as soon as I saw them, was all fine.

0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:22.480
<v Speaker 2>And you know, clearly I've got.

0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:25.840
<v Speaker 1>No roube, but clearly that one go.

0:19:26.000 --> 0:19:30.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but look reset and and made the call and

0:19:30.080 --> 0:19:33.200
<v Speaker 2>it was all recorded and there's a bit to it.

0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:36.600
<v Speaker 2>So initially I think, you know, and the initial part

0:19:36.960 --> 0:19:38.879
<v Speaker 2>he was quite pleased to hear from me. It was

0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:42.399
<v Speaker 2>almost friendly. I stopped that straight away because that was

0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:45.040
<v Speaker 2>the tactic that Patrick and I had spoken about, and

0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:50.600
<v Speaker 2>it was confronting. I just cannot again just the physical

0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:55.919
<v Speaker 2>and psychological responses of that call of because the fourteen

0:19:56.000 --> 0:19:58.000
<v Speaker 2>year old me was trying to trying to come out

0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:01.560
<v Speaker 2>from that conversation was taking myself back to time and place,

0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:04.200
<v Speaker 2>because I had to take him back to time and place.

0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:07.280
<v Speaker 2>So I had to literally say what he did so

0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:10.040
<v Speaker 2>that there's no mistake for anyone that would listen to

0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:11.960
<v Speaker 2>that phone call exactly what I was talking about. I

0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:15.840
<v Speaker 2>wasn't hinting at you know, it did, Mate, No, right

0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:19.080
<v Speaker 2>into it, you know. And and and that's just where

0:20:19.080 --> 0:20:20.920
<v Speaker 2>we had to take it. And that was hard because

0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:23.359
<v Speaker 2>the fourty year old me's bubbling up like getting upset.

0:20:23.760 --> 0:20:25.439
<v Speaker 2>But I've had to put this mask on and not

0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:27.399
<v Speaker 2>give him an inch that he had any control in

0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:32.080
<v Speaker 2>his conversation whatsoever, that I'm the one in charge now.

0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:35.240
<v Speaker 2>And look, it's okay, it was. It was. It was

0:20:35.280 --> 0:20:37.040
<v Speaker 2>a bit of a conversation. I don't recall a lot

0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:40.200
<v Speaker 2>of it, but you know, it'll it'll be it's played

0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:42.399
<v Speaker 2>in court and it is for everyone to hear.

0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:45.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well I can see, yeah, you demean that change

0:20:45.880 --> 0:20:48.240
<v Speaker 1>just talking about I can see the impact it had

0:20:48.280 --> 0:20:52.679
<v Speaker 1>on you. But yeah, taking it all back right at

0:20:52.680 --> 0:20:54.840
<v Speaker 1>the sharp end, isn't it. You're speaking to speaking to

0:20:54.880 --> 0:20:56.160
<v Speaker 1>the person's Yeah.

0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:59.680
<v Speaker 2>And look, if it ended there, yeah, you know, I

0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:02.119
<v Speaker 2>would have liked to obviously, and he was and he

0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:05.840
<v Speaker 2>is charged. If it had ended there, I probably would

0:21:05.840 --> 0:21:09.200
<v Speaker 2>have been half content as well. Yeah, half, Well.

0:21:09.040 --> 0:21:14.280
<v Speaker 1>That's confronting your abuser. You did that, and I can

0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:17.200
<v Speaker 1>understand that would give you some satisfaction.

0:21:17.480 --> 0:21:19.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it certainly didn't. And I think it was again

0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:24.760
<v Speaker 2>another real important point in the whole journey of I

0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:29.000
<v Speaker 2>guess trauma that tick. I've done that, I wanted to

0:21:29.000 --> 0:21:31.040
<v Speaker 2>do that. Not everyone's up for it, and I'm not here,

0:21:31.080 --> 0:21:33.480
<v Speaker 2>certainly sitting here saying that that's an option for everyone,

0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:35.240
<v Speaker 2>because it's bloody confronting.

0:21:35.560 --> 0:21:35.639
<v Speaker 1>It.

0:21:35.680 --> 0:21:38.080
<v Speaker 2>Took a long time to get over it. And now

0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:40.480
<v Speaker 2>every time there's a court process or a court date,

0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:43.360
<v Speaker 2>or the anxiety of that being called and me having

0:21:43.400 --> 0:21:45.920
<v Speaker 2>to listen to it again and owning that, the fear

0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:48.199
<v Speaker 2>of that, I don't know why I fear it, but

0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:49.680
<v Speaker 2>the fear of that foot and year old boy coming

0:21:49.680 --> 0:21:51.840
<v Speaker 2>out and being upset. I've learned to just lean in

0:21:51.880 --> 0:21:53.439
<v Speaker 2>and live it. And I don't know, I don't know

0:21:53.440 --> 0:21:55.119
<v Speaker 2>what can trigger It'd probably come out of you, so

0:21:55.359 --> 0:21:59.000
<v Speaker 2>the issues close. But that's part of part of that

0:21:59.080 --> 0:22:03.960
<v Speaker 2>vulnerability of letting it go and and whether that was

0:22:04.000 --> 0:22:06.960
<v Speaker 2>the end game for my journey on that or whether

0:22:06.960 --> 0:22:10.480
<v Speaker 2>it end up in charges. But I think I'm trying

0:22:10.520 --> 0:22:12.639
<v Speaker 2>to say an a round about w everyone is you've

0:22:12.680 --> 0:22:15.400
<v Speaker 2>got to understand what it is that's gonna be good

0:22:15.400 --> 0:22:18.040
<v Speaker 2>for you. Now, if that means just telling a story

0:22:18.080 --> 0:22:21.040
<v Speaker 2>to a counselor that's fine, that's one hundred percent fine.

0:22:21.520 --> 0:22:23.239
<v Speaker 2>If it's just telling someone close to you, or if

0:22:23.240 --> 0:22:26.120
<v Speaker 2>it's telling the police, or if you are for all,

0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:28.440
<v Speaker 2>I want this person charge and I want to see

0:22:28.440 --> 0:22:31.880
<v Speaker 2>them through court, and that's fine too. But I'm here

0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:35.480
<v Speaker 2>to tell people that that is again not linear. You'll

0:22:35.520 --> 0:22:38.639
<v Speaker 2>go through stages where I'm done, I want to withdraw

0:22:38.720 --> 0:22:41.440
<v Speaker 2>my complaint, or I haven't heard anything from the cops

0:22:41.440 --> 0:22:44.640
<v Speaker 2>for six months, I'm done. This is ridiculous because it's

0:22:44.640 --> 0:22:47.280
<v Speaker 2>with you every day. Every day, it's with you, and

0:22:47.280 --> 0:22:51.159
<v Speaker 2>it's just it's unresolved. It's sitting there, unresolved, and you

0:22:51.160 --> 0:22:52.880
<v Speaker 2>can try and live with it, but it's just still there.

0:22:53.440 --> 0:22:56.760
<v Speaker 2>So to have that gap, it can be years, because

0:22:56.760 --> 0:22:59.800
<v Speaker 2>that's the tactic. Let's use let's delay the victim out

0:22:59.840 --> 0:23:04.120
<v Speaker 2>of out of this. It's hard, but you know, you've

0:23:04.200 --> 0:23:06.400
<v Speaker 2>you've got to keep coming back to what was your purpose?

0:23:06.760 --> 0:23:09.080
<v Speaker 2>Do you still believe in that? Or are you happy

0:23:09.080 --> 0:23:11.520
<v Speaker 2>that it's changed? Are you happy now that you know what?

0:23:12.080 --> 0:23:14.200
<v Speaker 2>I actually don't think I'm much going through the judicial

0:23:14.200 --> 0:23:18.040
<v Speaker 2>process because it's just too much that's okay too, and

0:23:18.080 --> 0:23:18.760
<v Speaker 2>it might change.

0:23:19.000 --> 0:23:22.040
<v Speaker 1>I think it's important messaging that you put across there

0:23:22.080 --> 0:23:26.119
<v Speaker 1>that that might change what you want, what you're hoping

0:23:26.160 --> 0:23:28.680
<v Speaker 1>to achieve. But you're in control of it. Yeah too,

0:23:28.720 --> 0:23:30.560
<v Speaker 1>because I think the worst thing that can be done

0:23:30.640 --> 0:23:35.000
<v Speaker 1>to it's retraumatizing the person if they lose control because

0:23:35.280 --> 0:23:39.080
<v Speaker 1>the offense, they lost control. And now if they lose control,

0:23:39.119 --> 0:23:43.640
<v Speaker 1>now if they get bullied into making a statement, it's yeah,

0:23:43.800 --> 0:23:46.359
<v Speaker 1>look you've got you've got to let the victim have

0:23:46.440 --> 0:23:51.000
<v Speaker 1>control of the person who was offended against, have control

0:23:51.240 --> 0:23:58.800
<v Speaker 1>of what's happened. The delays in the court matter a look, yeah,

0:23:59.680 --> 0:24:02.840
<v Speaker 1>it's isn't it. Yeah, delays in courts.

0:24:02.920 --> 0:24:05.399
<v Speaker 2>Okay, It's hard to sit here and say something so

0:24:05.520 --> 0:24:09.359
<v Speaker 2>negative against a system you've fought for for so long.

0:24:09.800 --> 0:24:14.560
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, look it's not a great experience, is mine.

0:24:14.600 --> 0:24:16.280
<v Speaker 2>And that's for a number of reasons that, as you're

0:24:16.320 --> 0:24:18.280
<v Speaker 2>rightly say, is out of my control. Yeah, and that's

0:24:18.320 --> 0:24:22.760
<v Speaker 2>been that. It's without trying to put a label on this,

0:24:22.800 --> 0:24:25.760
<v Speaker 2>but I've been revictimized every time. Yeah, so every time

0:24:25.920 --> 0:24:29.840
<v Speaker 2>there's a new trial or a system, you're a hung jury.

0:24:30.280 --> 0:24:32.960
<v Speaker 2>So initially there's a hung jury, there's a new trial,

0:24:33.040 --> 0:24:36.199
<v Speaker 2>there's a delay, and in this particular case, some more

0:24:36.280 --> 0:24:37.840
<v Speaker 2>victims come forward, which is great.

0:24:38.800 --> 0:24:42.560
<v Speaker 1>Explain that to give the listeners, there was a person

0:24:42.600 --> 0:24:45.199
<v Speaker 1>that came forward and made a complaint prior to you.

0:24:45.200 --> 0:24:48.560
<v Speaker 1>You heard about it, you came forward, made a complaint,

0:24:48.800 --> 0:24:51.280
<v Speaker 1>and then there's been how many others are.

0:24:52.400 --> 0:24:55.840
<v Speaker 2>I think in the first break down to two sections.

0:24:55.840 --> 0:24:57.840
<v Speaker 2>I think in the first section there ended up being

0:24:59.320 --> 0:25:01.320
<v Speaker 2>and again I'm not of sin because I have never

0:25:01.480 --> 0:25:02.600
<v Speaker 2>told me so.

0:25:02.520 --> 0:25:06.040
<v Speaker 1>But they keep thinking separate. Yeah, so there's no contamination.

0:25:06.600 --> 0:25:08.560
<v Speaker 2>I don't even know their names, but I think there's

0:25:08.560 --> 0:25:13.960
<v Speaker 2>around seven in that first block, right, that trial around

0:25:13.960 --> 0:25:16.040
<v Speaker 2>a couple of years ago and was a hung jury. Yep,

0:25:16.200 --> 0:25:20.120
<v Speaker 2>so went around again for a trial, so twelve months wait,

0:25:21.000 --> 0:25:24.800
<v Speaker 2>which you're like. And initially then I was separated from

0:25:24.840 --> 0:25:27.400
<v Speaker 2>that first group because I think of the phone call

0:25:27.440 --> 0:25:27.920
<v Speaker 2>that was made.

0:25:28.000 --> 0:25:31.000
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So just to explain that a group of people

0:25:31.080 --> 0:25:34.720
<v Speaker 1>have come come forward, they've all complained about the same person.

0:25:34.880 --> 0:25:38.040
<v Speaker 1>There's been a series of charges. When you say the

0:25:38.080 --> 0:25:42.520
<v Speaker 1>first group seven, they were all people that had made

0:25:42.600 --> 0:25:46.760
<v Speaker 1>complaints against the person of interest, the person who has

0:25:46.800 --> 0:25:51.520
<v Speaker 1>been charged went to trial. Your matter's been separated, so

0:25:51.800 --> 0:25:55.399
<v Speaker 1>your trial is going to run separate to the first trial.

0:25:55.680 --> 0:25:56.040
<v Speaker 2>Correct.

0:25:56.080 --> 0:25:59.879
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And that was a hung jury, which people I

0:26:00.240 --> 0:26:02.640
<v Speaker 1>think listening to the podcast long enough I hung jury

0:26:02.680 --> 0:26:06.000
<v Speaker 1>where you can't get a unanimous decision or a majority

0:26:06.440 --> 0:26:11.520
<v Speaker 1>decision on it. So the option is it's no build,

0:26:11.800 --> 0:26:14.359
<v Speaker 1>you don't proceed with it, or the option is that

0:26:14.400 --> 0:26:17.960
<v Speaker 1>the decisions made to go for a further trial. So

0:26:18.440 --> 0:26:21.000
<v Speaker 1>then it was twelve months waiting. You're at the end

0:26:21.040 --> 0:26:22.440
<v Speaker 1>of the queue at this stage.

0:26:22.119 --> 0:26:24.680
<v Speaker 2>Still at the end of the queue, I believe because

0:26:24.720 --> 0:26:27.120
<v Speaker 2>of this recording, and it was deemed that that recording

0:26:27.160 --> 0:26:28.840
<v Speaker 2>would be prejudicial.

0:26:29.000 --> 0:26:30.880
<v Speaker 1>To the other others, okay, which.

0:26:30.720 --> 0:26:34.119
<v Speaker 2>Still blows my mind. But that was the ruling of

0:26:34.119 --> 0:26:37.120
<v Speaker 2>the court. And so I'm at the end of it all,

0:26:37.359 --> 0:26:39.879
<v Speaker 2>and we're waiting another twelve months because twelve months is

0:26:39.920 --> 0:26:42.320
<v Speaker 2>the next available court date in the system.

0:26:42.960 --> 0:26:47.160
<v Speaker 1>So after the jury, after the decision didn't come back

0:26:47.400 --> 0:26:50.119
<v Speaker 1>twelve months, they waited and there was another trial with

0:26:50.200 --> 0:26:54.160
<v Speaker 1>the seven people, with the seven people who had made

0:26:54.240 --> 0:26:58.679
<v Speaker 1>complaints against the offender or the accused. What happened that

0:26:58.720 --> 0:26:59.879
<v Speaker 1>the court matter there.

0:27:01.520 --> 0:27:04.720
<v Speaker 2>That particular case for those seven. I believe he was

0:27:04.720 --> 0:27:09.120
<v Speaker 2>found guilty of one victim and I hung jury on three,

0:27:09.640 --> 0:27:12.680
<v Speaker 2>so they couldn't reach a verdict, and three not guilty

0:27:13.160 --> 0:27:16.800
<v Speaker 2>didn't get beyond reasonable doubt. So one victim found guilty

0:27:16.800 --> 0:27:23.680
<v Speaker 2>out of seven, which absolutely my hart leeds for all

0:27:23.720 --> 0:27:26.359
<v Speaker 2>of those victims. And I've played all that out of

0:27:26.400 --> 0:27:29.240
<v Speaker 2>my mind as best I can in that you know,

0:27:29.520 --> 0:27:30.879
<v Speaker 2>how do you feel if you're the one that's got

0:27:30.880 --> 0:27:34.720
<v Speaker 2>the guilty and the others don't. But eventually or to

0:27:34.760 --> 0:27:36.560
<v Speaker 2>the point, you know, and I'm just happy guilty of one,

0:27:36.640 --> 0:27:38.600
<v Speaker 2>but I can't, you know, you can't speak for everyone

0:27:38.600 --> 0:27:42.600
<v Speaker 2>in that situation. But that wasn't a good start for

0:27:42.680 --> 0:27:45.960
<v Speaker 2>that group of seven people. And in the twelve months

0:27:46.000 --> 0:27:49.359
<v Speaker 2>they were waiting for that retrial, more victims come forward,

0:27:49.840 --> 0:27:53.360
<v Speaker 2>so I think there was another eight or nine, I'm

0:27:53.400 --> 0:27:56.960
<v Speaker 2>not sure, but they had to run that second group

0:27:56.960 --> 0:27:58.840
<v Speaker 2>of eight of nine in a separate trial altogether.

0:27:59.200 --> 0:28:02.720
<v Speaker 1>The offender pleaded not guilty to the charges.

0:28:03.000 --> 0:28:04.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's right. I don't think he's maintained not guilty

0:28:05.000 --> 0:28:05.440
<v Speaker 2>the whole way.

0:28:05.920 --> 0:28:12.480
<v Speaker 1>So okay, hung drury first trial, second trial, one guilty,

0:28:13.160 --> 0:28:18.080
<v Speaker 1>three hung three, no decision made for three not guilty

0:28:18.119 --> 0:28:22.760
<v Speaker 1>out of the seven and then an additional eight have come.

0:28:22.600 --> 0:28:25.080
<v Speaker 2>Forward in a separate Is that another trial?

0:28:25.160 --> 0:28:25.840
<v Speaker 1>Another trial?

0:28:26.240 --> 0:28:26.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

0:28:26.640 --> 0:28:27.680
<v Speaker 1>Is he in custody in there?

0:28:28.480 --> 0:28:34.119
<v Speaker 2>No? I don't know, mate, I've been told no, which

0:28:34.440 --> 0:28:37.720
<v Speaker 2>is a frustration, to say the least. It was obviously

0:28:37.720 --> 0:28:41.400
<v Speaker 2>overwhelmed over the moon that you know, there's now nine

0:28:41.680 --> 0:28:45.160
<v Speaker 2>and I think I asked, you know, is the immediate custody?

0:28:45.360 --> 0:28:48.600
<v Speaker 2>Is he straight in jail? Like? I think the response was,

0:28:48.760 --> 0:28:52.440
<v Speaker 2>I'll have to check. You have to check. This is

0:28:52.920 --> 0:28:54.520
<v Speaker 2>you know. I would have thought that was something you'd

0:28:54.560 --> 0:28:56.920
<v Speaker 2>know straight off the about and this is this is

0:28:56.960 --> 0:29:00.600
<v Speaker 2>not the police, this is a support person. And look,

0:29:00.640 --> 0:29:03.160
<v Speaker 2>she's lovely too, I'll give you a rap. But she's overwhelmed.

0:29:03.400 --> 0:29:05.680
<v Speaker 2>That's a sad thing in itself. So she didn't know

0:29:05.800 --> 0:29:08.080
<v Speaker 2>she had to find out. She has NAIs on bail still.

0:29:08.840 --> 0:29:12.040
<v Speaker 2>And my question was, well, did police or did the

0:29:12.120 --> 0:29:15.200
<v Speaker 2>DPP ask for a media cust ideal? And I can't

0:29:15.200 --> 0:29:18.480
<v Speaker 2>get an answer at this stage. Okay, so that's a

0:29:18.520 --> 0:29:21.320
<v Speaker 2>whole other level of Look, I don't understand. Maybe I'm

0:29:21.360 --> 0:29:25.440
<v Speaker 2>missing something, but you've found guilty of nine child sexual offenses.

0:29:25.800 --> 0:29:26.760
<v Speaker 2>I would have thought you strung.

0:29:26.840 --> 0:29:33.360
<v Speaker 1>Well, yeah, as to former cops, we accept the decisions

0:29:33.360 --> 0:29:37.760
<v Speaker 1>of the court, but you're sitting here as a victim,

0:29:38.120 --> 0:29:44.080
<v Speaker 1>and so offer the opinion of victim that this person

0:29:44.160 --> 0:29:48.800
<v Speaker 1>has been charged with multiple offenses, been found guilty of

0:29:49.640 --> 0:29:55.760
<v Speaker 1>nine victims, and still is out on bar. It's not

0:29:55.800 --> 0:29:57.360
<v Speaker 1>a good situation, not a good look.

0:29:58.000 --> 0:30:00.640
<v Speaker 2>And look, there may be a very perfect explanation, but

0:30:00.680 --> 0:30:02.080
<v Speaker 2>I'm just not getting it at the moment, and that

0:30:02.440 --> 0:30:05.520
<v Speaker 2>in itself is causing a lot of distress. You know

0:30:05.560 --> 0:30:11.280
<v Speaker 2>that the lack of information coming my way has been

0:30:11.400 --> 0:30:14.880
<v Speaker 2>quite distressing, to say the least. It's revictimized everything, and

0:30:14.920 --> 0:30:16.960
<v Speaker 2>to the point I actually rang Blake at one point

0:30:16.960 --> 0:30:18.600
<v Speaker 2>and was like, mate, I think I'm done.

0:30:18.760 --> 0:30:21.800
<v Speaker 1>You can So it's even at the point of breaking

0:30:21.840 --> 0:30:27.920
<v Speaker 1>you because from the time you provided the statement to police,

0:30:27.160 --> 0:30:30.280
<v Speaker 1>how long are we talking there? I think at four years,

0:30:30.520 --> 0:30:33.920
<v Speaker 1>four years before before it comes to trial.

0:30:34.680 --> 0:30:38.720
<v Speaker 2>You delays retrials defense with all there's new material, we

0:30:38.840 --> 0:30:41.480
<v Speaker 2>need time to digest that, and that turns out to be,

0:30:41.600 --> 0:30:45.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, another twelve months. So my biggest fear around

0:30:45.160 --> 0:30:49.440
<v Speaker 2>this bit was if this is delayed again for another

0:30:49.440 --> 0:30:52.400
<v Speaker 2>twelve months, I think I'm broken. I think I need

0:30:52.440 --> 0:30:55.280
<v Speaker 2>to look after my own wellbeing. I think I had enough.

0:30:55.360 --> 0:30:58.120
<v Speaker 2>He's been found guilty of hate. But then there's a

0:30:58.120 --> 0:30:59.800
<v Speaker 2>part of it goes, you know what. We're almost there,

0:31:00.040 --> 0:31:02.960
<v Speaker 2>but I just I just cannot even start to think

0:31:03.840 --> 0:31:05.960
<v Speaker 2>what this must be like for victims out there that

0:31:06.080 --> 0:31:07.600
<v Speaker 2>don't understand the system.

0:31:07.680 --> 0:31:11.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well that's the thing. You do know the system.

0:31:11.040 --> 0:31:13.360
<v Speaker 1>You've been in the in the system, and that's still

0:31:13.360 --> 0:31:17.280
<v Speaker 1>traumatizing you. So at the time we're recording this podcast,

0:31:17.800 --> 0:31:20.760
<v Speaker 1>the trial judge only trial is coming up for you

0:31:20.880 --> 0:31:23.840
<v Speaker 1>very very shortly. Yeah, a couple of weeks, and how

0:31:23.880 --> 0:31:24.479
<v Speaker 1>are you feeling?

0:31:28.880 --> 0:31:31.040
<v Speaker 2>Very anxious? You know, I want to I want to

0:31:31.080 --> 0:31:34.800
<v Speaker 2>tell my story. I didn't think going to court and

0:31:34.840 --> 0:31:37.520
<v Speaker 2>telling it would mean as much to me as what

0:31:37.560 --> 0:31:40.440
<v Speaker 2>it does before. I said, you know, it's okay if

0:31:40.440 --> 0:31:42.400
<v Speaker 2>you change what your tension is, and I did mention

0:31:43.480 --> 0:31:46.080
<v Speaker 2>there's been bad days. I've gone and done. I just

0:31:46.080 --> 0:31:47.840
<v Speaker 2>want to move on. I want to advocate for change.

0:31:47.880 --> 0:31:49.920
<v Speaker 2>I want to help men of my age that have

0:31:49.960 --> 0:31:51.800
<v Speaker 2>been through the same thing. I want to help try

0:31:51.840 --> 0:31:54.560
<v Speaker 2>and change some of the judicial process. I want to

0:31:54.560 --> 0:31:56.440
<v Speaker 2>get on with that part of work in my life.

0:31:56.640 --> 0:31:58.440
<v Speaker 2>I've moved on a much happier in life now, but

0:31:58.920 --> 0:32:02.000
<v Speaker 2>there's still this lingering and it just won't. Like you said,

0:32:02.040 --> 0:32:04.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm not in control of that, and that is taking

0:32:04.920 --> 0:32:06.680
<v Speaker 2>me back to not being in control of what happened.

0:32:06.840 --> 0:32:10.400
<v Speaker 2>So it's really victimizing. What is that saying justice delayed

0:32:10.480 --> 0:32:16.320
<v Speaker 2>is justice denied to night and and that that every

0:32:16.360 --> 0:32:18.440
<v Speaker 2>single day. So leading in now only a couple of

0:32:18.440 --> 0:32:20.520
<v Speaker 2>weeks away. I think there was one comment made as

0:32:20.600 --> 0:32:22.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, we hope we get it on this year,

0:32:22.560 --> 0:32:25.080
<v Speaker 2>and that just rocked me. I was just like, oh

0:32:25.120 --> 0:32:26.120
<v Speaker 2>my god, don't tell me.

0:32:26.680 --> 0:32:30.520
<v Speaker 1>We're going to wait and and your frustration is not

0:32:30.640 --> 0:32:35.479
<v Speaker 1>directed at the individual. It's a system, a system that

0:32:35.920 --> 0:32:38.600
<v Speaker 1>you could get there on the day and there could

0:32:38.600 --> 0:32:42.160
<v Speaker 1>be some obscure reason the trails pulled off again, and

0:32:42.160 --> 0:32:45.680
<v Speaker 1>then the availability of the courts like ye, that'll be

0:32:45.720 --> 0:32:48.880
<v Speaker 1>another another twelve months. That's you sit here.

0:32:48.520 --> 0:32:51.200
<v Speaker 2>Wondering when when am I? And you know, and with

0:32:51.320 --> 0:32:54.240
<v Speaker 2>him now on bail, I don't think they can undo

0:32:54.280 --> 0:32:56.800
<v Speaker 2>that or a sind that decision that that he's been

0:32:56.800 --> 0:32:59.960
<v Speaker 2>found guilty, but he's on bail, so I don't know,

0:33:00.040 --> 0:33:00.480
<v Speaker 2>I don't.

0:33:00.480 --> 0:33:02.560
<v Speaker 1>We don't know the full details, but that is hard

0:33:02.880 --> 0:33:08.000
<v Speaker 1>hard to come again, it's just anecdotically someone's convicted of

0:33:08.160 --> 0:33:10.840
<v Speaker 1>that many offenses generally refused.

0:33:10.880 --> 0:33:15.320
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, yeah, so yeah, look it's yeah, it's an

0:33:15.360 --> 0:33:18.080
<v Speaker 2>interesting time. And look, I'm anxious for me. I'm anxious

0:33:18.080 --> 0:33:21.320
<v Speaker 2>for my family that now I know my kids, I'm

0:33:21.320 --> 0:33:23.400
<v Speaker 2>a partner and that's going through all this as well.

0:33:23.480 --> 0:33:25.720
<v Speaker 2>It's going to come up and support and I was

0:33:25.760 --> 0:33:27.600
<v Speaker 2>going to do it my own, but now I've lent into

0:33:28.160 --> 0:33:34.320
<v Speaker 2>getting support. You know my brother that I have told her,

0:33:34.480 --> 0:33:37.560
<v Speaker 2>he's he wants to come and help as well. So

0:33:37.800 --> 0:33:40.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, we'll get through it. And to know you're

0:33:40.480 --> 0:33:42.440
<v Speaker 2>not alone is probably the biggest piece out of this.

0:33:42.520 --> 0:33:45.520
<v Speaker 2>But you having to explain to them all these steps

0:33:45.520 --> 0:33:48.320
<v Speaker 2>and processes and delays. I understand what it's like for

0:33:48.480 --> 0:33:51.400
<v Speaker 2>just and every day if I can put it that

0:33:51.400 --> 0:33:54.120
<v Speaker 2>way in every day victim or not an ex cop

0:33:54.240 --> 0:33:57.880
<v Speaker 2>victim that has all these questions and if I'm not

0:33:57.960 --> 0:34:02.280
<v Speaker 2>getting any responses, there any understanding or maybe they just

0:34:02.280 --> 0:34:05.160
<v Speaker 2>assume I or no. But as simple as there's a

0:34:05.200 --> 0:34:08.080
<v Speaker 2>mentioned date, yeah, well I know what date it is

0:34:08.120 --> 0:34:10.239
<v Speaker 2>because it gets put in up here and you know,

0:34:11.360 --> 0:34:14.280
<v Speaker 2>and it goes by, and you thought, I'll I understand

0:34:14.320 --> 0:34:16.399
<v Speaker 2>they're busy and I want to bother them, and they're doing

0:34:16.440 --> 0:34:18.920
<v Speaker 2>a bloody good job getting the head around all these

0:34:19.000 --> 0:34:22.839
<v Speaker 2>victims and the brief, but just a notification that looks

0:34:22.920 --> 0:34:23.840
<v Speaker 2>nothing happened today.

0:34:24.000 --> 0:34:27.359
<v Speaker 1>But it is those little things like a mentioned date.

0:34:27.480 --> 0:34:31.759
<v Speaker 1>Like some people I've had victims, until it's explained to them,

0:34:32.520 --> 0:34:34.600
<v Speaker 1>I think, well, it's all going to be decided on

0:34:34.640 --> 0:34:37.759
<v Speaker 1>the date because it's a mentioned day and mentioned. There's

0:34:37.840 --> 0:34:39.880
<v Speaker 1>just it's in the list in the court and nothing's

0:34:39.920 --> 0:34:41.759
<v Speaker 1>going to happen that day other than a further date

0:34:42.400 --> 0:34:42.839
<v Speaker 1>date set.

0:34:43.000 --> 0:34:44.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And look, I want to I want to highlight

0:34:44.800 --> 0:34:46.880
<v Speaker 2>and make it very clear I'm not only critical of

0:34:46.920 --> 0:34:49.480
<v Speaker 2>the barristers, of the solicitors or the victim witness support

0:34:49.560 --> 0:34:51.800
<v Speaker 2>people or Blake. They've been amazing.

0:34:51.960 --> 0:34:53.279
<v Speaker 1>I think that's important.

0:34:53.280 --> 0:34:56.040
<v Speaker 2>I think my point is is that they're so overwhelmed

0:34:56.040 --> 0:34:59.000
<v Speaker 2>and overworked and underresourced. That's my point, and that's the

0:34:59.080 --> 0:35:02.600
<v Speaker 2>change I want to see. They need more support because

0:35:03.520 --> 0:35:07.200
<v Speaker 2>the retraumatizing and the living and the delays. It needs

0:35:07.200 --> 0:35:10.280
<v Speaker 2>its own court. It needs a specialist sex offense court.

0:35:11.120 --> 0:35:13.040
<v Speaker 2>You shouldn't be thrown in with all the armed robberies

0:35:13.080 --> 0:35:16.399
<v Speaker 2>and all the murders and all the tobacco wars. It

0:35:16.440 --> 0:35:18.400
<v Speaker 2>needs its own court for a number of reasons, to

0:35:18.440 --> 0:35:23.160
<v Speaker 2>stop the delay, and for the courts and judges. I

0:35:23.160 --> 0:35:24.640
<v Speaker 2>know they're doing a lot of work, but to better

0:35:24.760 --> 0:35:30.239
<v Speaker 2>understand the intricacies of sex offense investigations, so the psychology

0:35:30.239 --> 0:35:32.719
<v Speaker 2>of it. Whereas you might get a judge that's very

0:35:32.760 --> 0:35:34.719
<v Speaker 2>specialized in this and that would be best practice, and

0:35:34.760 --> 0:35:36.880
<v Speaker 2>that's what they try to do, but they're overwhelmed and

0:35:36.920 --> 0:35:41.440
<v Speaker 2>they're overworked. The judges are so there's so many pieces

0:35:41.440 --> 0:35:45.120
<v Speaker 2>in this that need fixing and need to be resolved.

0:35:45.480 --> 0:35:47.359
<v Speaker 2>Now there's an expectation I would have thought on most

0:35:47.360 --> 0:35:48.960
<v Speaker 2>people when you go to the police, your matter would

0:35:48.960 --> 0:35:52.760
<v Speaker 2>be resolved in six to twelve months, two years tops

0:35:52.920 --> 0:35:56.520
<v Speaker 2>fours substandard And if you'd asked me four years ago

0:35:56.640 --> 0:35:59.120
<v Speaker 2>you got four years in here, I probably said.

0:35:59.040 --> 0:36:02.640
<v Speaker 1>No, Yeah, it is ridiculous how long it takes to

0:36:02.719 --> 0:36:07.200
<v Speaker 1>get the matter matter through the court. Yeah, Hey guys,

0:36:07.560 --> 0:36:10.080
<v Speaker 1>it's Gary jubilin here. Want they get more out of

0:36:10.120 --> 0:36:12.640
<v Speaker 1>VI catch killers? Then you should head over to our

0:36:12.680 --> 0:36:16.400
<v Speaker 1>new video feed on Spotify where you can watch every

0:36:16.400 --> 0:36:20.000
<v Speaker 1>episode of VI Catch Killers. Just search for I Catch

0:36:20.080 --> 0:36:25.400
<v Speaker 1>Killers video in your Spotify app and start watching today.

0:36:25.520 --> 0:36:30.359
<v Speaker 1>If gain hypothetically, if the judge came back and found

0:36:30.400 --> 0:36:32.400
<v Speaker 1>him not guilty, how would you feel personally?

0:36:32.880 --> 0:36:35.879
<v Speaker 2>That's the system. I know what happened. Yeah, he knows

0:36:35.880 --> 0:36:38.040
<v Speaker 2>what happens. Yeah, but that's the system, isn't it. You've

0:36:38.040 --> 0:36:40.319
<v Speaker 2>got to accept the ruling of the court. I was

0:36:40.320 --> 0:36:42.439
<v Speaker 2>told a long time ago, particularly I think get Thomas side.

0:36:42.480 --> 0:36:44.279
<v Speaker 2>One of my bosses was like, if your job is

0:36:44.320 --> 0:36:46.759
<v Speaker 2>to put the matter before the court, yeah, job done.

0:36:46.840 --> 0:36:49.480
<v Speaker 2>If you're going to get too hung up on sentencing

0:36:49.640 --> 0:36:51.360
<v Speaker 2>or that's not in parody to this, you're going to

0:36:51.440 --> 0:36:54.719
<v Speaker 2>drive yourself nuts. Yeah. So look, just to get it,

0:36:55.719 --> 0:36:57.279
<v Speaker 2>just to get him charged was a win for me

0:36:57.560 --> 0:36:59.560
<v Speaker 2>to get inside the courtrooms. Great. But now that we're

0:36:59.600 --> 0:37:06.400
<v Speaker 2>so close to having so many victims been I guess

0:37:06.840 --> 0:37:09.000
<v Speaker 2>been found guilty of and his regard one more would

0:37:09.040 --> 0:37:12.680
<v Speaker 2>be great because it'd be great for me. I'm not

0:37:12.760 --> 0:37:15.440
<v Speaker 2>going to get hung on it too much. As I said,

0:37:15.480 --> 0:37:17.480
<v Speaker 2>I know what happened, and so to see whether he's

0:37:17.520 --> 0:37:19.880
<v Speaker 2>willing to admit that he recalls it all or not,

0:37:20.040 --> 0:37:23.520
<v Speaker 2>that's a matter for him, but we both know what happened.

0:37:23.800 --> 0:37:27.760
<v Speaker 1>I'm glad that's the approach, and I think it sounds

0:37:27.800 --> 0:37:33.560
<v Speaker 1>like the right approach to take. And you've made him accountable.

0:37:33.960 --> 0:37:38.080
<v Speaker 1>It's yeah, the courts. We've been cops long enough to

0:37:38.160 --> 0:37:40.520
<v Speaker 1>they it can go either way. You just you just

0:37:40.560 --> 0:37:41.640
<v Speaker 1>don't know what's going to happen.

0:37:41.719 --> 0:37:44.359
<v Speaker 2>Happen with the courts and the elephant in the room,

0:37:44.400 --> 0:37:46.600
<v Speaker 2>I guess, And these a conversation I've had with people

0:37:46.600 --> 0:37:48.359
<v Speaker 2>who have come and told me, you know that this

0:37:48.400 --> 0:37:51.359
<v Speaker 2>happened to me, and some people want to confront them,

0:37:51.560 --> 0:37:53.759
<v Speaker 2>and you know, you know, particularly Dad's go I know

0:37:53.800 --> 0:37:56.839
<v Speaker 2>what I'd do if this is happened to me. Look,

0:37:57.120 --> 0:37:59.719
<v Speaker 2>I've just got to deal with that elephant in the

0:37:59.760 --> 0:38:02.480
<v Speaker 2>room that's only going to get yourself and others into trouble.

0:38:03.200 --> 0:38:06.239
<v Speaker 2>I understand where they're coming from. And I've never had

0:38:06.320 --> 0:38:09.400
<v Speaker 2>that inclination to go and hurt him or get revenge

0:38:09.520 --> 0:38:11.839
<v Speaker 2>or anything. I am still who I am. He didn't

0:38:11.840 --> 0:38:15.359
<v Speaker 2>affect the man I grew into. If probably anything, it's

0:38:15.400 --> 0:38:18.640
<v Speaker 2>maybe better. It was a weird thing to say, but

0:38:18.719 --> 0:38:20.759
<v Speaker 2>by going and chasing these people down and trying to

0:38:20.760 --> 0:38:22.600
<v Speaker 2>do your own summary justice is only going to put

0:38:22.600 --> 0:38:26.360
<v Speaker 2>yourself in trouble and that's not the best thing for

0:38:26.400 --> 0:38:28.120
<v Speaker 2>you or your family. And my advice is get some

0:38:28.680 --> 0:38:30.839
<v Speaker 2>proper help, because that's not going to that's not going

0:38:30.840 --> 0:38:31.040
<v Speaker 2>to do it.

0:38:31.000 --> 0:38:34.400
<v Speaker 1>It's not going to fulfill it's not It will damage

0:38:34.440 --> 0:38:37.680
<v Speaker 1>yourself more in some way. I think. So that's that's

0:38:37.680 --> 0:38:41.920
<v Speaker 1>a good message to get out. Graham. You said you

0:38:41.920 --> 0:38:44.200
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't have come forward then if it hadn't been for

0:38:44.239 --> 0:38:48.040
<v Speaker 1>that other victim coming forward. That was sort of a prompt.

0:38:48.440 --> 0:38:50.839
<v Speaker 1>What do you think needs to change to encourage people

0:38:50.920 --> 0:38:52.000
<v Speaker 1>to come forward?

0:38:53.080 --> 0:38:55.319
<v Speaker 2>I think that aspect of knowing that you're going to

0:38:55.320 --> 0:38:57.680
<v Speaker 2>be supported, whether you're doing it alone or whether you're

0:38:57.680 --> 0:38:59.759
<v Speaker 2>doing it with others. That was the trigger for me

0:38:59.920 --> 0:39:01.719
<v Speaker 2>was you know, I need to support this person that's

0:39:01.760 --> 0:39:03.799
<v Speaker 2>had the courage to come forward, and it just felt

0:39:03.840 --> 0:39:06.960
<v Speaker 2>the right time for me. But I think overall, I

0:39:06.960 --> 0:39:09.400
<v Speaker 2>think people just need to feel supported and the system

0:39:09.480 --> 0:39:12.439
<v Speaker 2>needs to be a lot more efficient, that's for sure,

0:39:12.680 --> 0:39:15.440
<v Speaker 2>because it just discourages people from reporting.

0:39:15.719 --> 0:39:19.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, what would you say, The people that suppress will

0:39:19.080 --> 0:39:22.920
<v Speaker 1>carry suppressed trauma like you have, whether it's PTSD or

0:39:23.040 --> 0:39:25.600
<v Speaker 1>something that's happened to you, like it's happened in the past.

0:39:25.640 --> 0:39:29.120
<v Speaker 1>What's your message there, Like it's been the journey for you.

0:39:29.360 --> 0:39:31.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think that you can try and suppress and

0:39:31.960 --> 0:39:33.799
<v Speaker 2>bury it as much as you want. And I did

0:39:33.840 --> 0:39:35.680
<v Speaker 2>it really well for a long time.

0:39:37.560 --> 0:39:39.680
<v Speaker 1>I'm laughing, but clearly you did.

0:39:40.400 --> 0:39:42.680
<v Speaker 2>And I come to it it was locked. It was

0:39:43.320 --> 0:39:46.200
<v Speaker 2>I didn't know the code to what unlocked that, but

0:39:46.239 --> 0:39:47.719
<v Speaker 2>I guess the game where you play there is it

0:39:47.760 --> 0:39:50.719
<v Speaker 2>eventually catches up with you, and it did for me.

0:39:50.800 --> 0:39:53.960
<v Speaker 2>It eventually was unlocked. But once it was unlocked, I

0:39:53.960 --> 0:39:55.840
<v Speaker 2>still then chose to try and keep it a secret.

0:39:56.120 --> 0:39:57.960
<v Speaker 2>And I guess that's my point to those that are

0:39:58.080 --> 0:40:00.160
<v Speaker 2>out there that have been living with this for a

0:40:00.160 --> 0:40:02.239
<v Speaker 2>lot longer than I did, that have been living this

0:40:02.360 --> 0:40:05.080
<v Speaker 2>for you know, say I've been living with me since

0:40:05.120 --> 0:40:08.560
<v Speaker 2>I was fourteen, it's nearly forty years. That's a long

0:40:08.640 --> 0:40:11.200
<v Speaker 2>that's a long forty years of having that inside you,

0:40:11.239 --> 0:40:13.400
<v Speaker 2>trying to deal with that and carry that weight and

0:40:13.520 --> 0:40:16.040
<v Speaker 2>eventually catches that with you, and the people listening would

0:40:16.160 --> 0:40:19.000
<v Speaker 2>know that there's either you know, there's either trust issues

0:40:19.080 --> 0:40:22.879
<v Speaker 2>or there's issues within yourself. Whether it's use of drug

0:40:23.000 --> 0:40:26.640
<v Speaker 2>or alcohol or violence or whatever the case may be,

0:40:26.840 --> 0:40:30.120
<v Speaker 2>is that that's not the way to live. I feel

0:40:30.120 --> 0:40:32.399
<v Speaker 2>that since coming out and telling my story to those

0:40:32.400 --> 0:40:34.359
<v Speaker 2>closest to me and not having to carry it on

0:40:34.400 --> 0:40:37.320
<v Speaker 2>my own, as scary as it bloody was, and confronting

0:40:37.360 --> 0:40:39.200
<v Speaker 2>as it was, it's actually been the best thing for

0:40:39.239 --> 0:40:41.759
<v Speaker 2>me because I've been able to those close to me

0:40:41.800 --> 0:40:44.840
<v Speaker 2>want to share that, and it's easier, isn't it. You know,

0:40:44.920 --> 0:40:46.040
<v Speaker 2>if someone had come to me and told me that

0:40:46.080 --> 0:40:48.440
<v Speaker 2>I would support the one hundredercent, I would, And that's

0:40:48.440 --> 0:40:50.400
<v Speaker 2>what I'm asking some people now to come forward. But

0:40:51.040 --> 0:40:52.640
<v Speaker 2>the victim in me was like, oh, I don't want

0:40:52.640 --> 0:40:54.160
<v Speaker 2>to deal with that's still confronting. I'm just happy to

0:40:54.160 --> 0:40:57.440
<v Speaker 2>going on with life. But my life is so much

0:40:57.480 --> 0:41:01.080
<v Speaker 2>better now that I've dealt with that. My close friends

0:41:01.120 --> 0:41:03.000
<v Speaker 2>and found me are on that with me, and it's

0:41:03.040 --> 0:41:06.160
<v Speaker 2>a shared shared trauma, I guess is the way to

0:41:06.200 --> 0:41:07.440
<v Speaker 2>probably get to it.

0:41:07.440 --> 0:41:08.040
<v Speaker 1>It's a good way.

0:41:08.520 --> 0:41:10.000
<v Speaker 2>You know, I'm not carrying one hundred percent on my

0:41:10.040 --> 0:41:12.160
<v Speaker 2>own now, and they can't take it all. They might

0:41:12.200 --> 0:41:14.120
<v Speaker 2>be able to just take five percent, or on a

0:41:14.120 --> 0:41:16.400
<v Speaker 2>bad day, partner can take all of it. You know,

0:41:16.520 --> 0:41:18.399
<v Speaker 2>that's a weight on her too, you know, and that's

0:41:18.520 --> 0:41:21.200
<v Speaker 2>that's part of it. So that was a big part

0:41:21.280 --> 0:41:24.480
<v Speaker 2>of that. That reasons in coming forward and telling your stories,

0:41:24.560 --> 0:41:26.719
<v Speaker 2>it's actually made me better. And you know it's going

0:41:26.760 --> 0:41:29.640
<v Speaker 2>to be hard for everyone. Yeah, you know, if you're

0:41:29.680 --> 0:41:35.520
<v Speaker 2>sitting there in an absolute maze and feeling you don't

0:41:35.520 --> 0:41:36.920
<v Speaker 2>know where you are and you're lost or you're doing

0:41:37.000 --> 0:41:38.880
<v Speaker 2>things wrong, well you've you've got to have the courage

0:41:38.920 --> 0:41:40.759
<v Speaker 2>to maybe take that step or make that phone call

0:41:41.200 --> 0:41:43.680
<v Speaker 2>and try and get some help, because there is stuff

0:41:43.719 --> 0:41:45.960
<v Speaker 2>out there needs to be more, but it will be

0:41:46.000 --> 0:41:46.439
<v Speaker 2>for the better.

0:41:47.200 --> 0:41:50.960
<v Speaker 1>And telling people that the people that have supported you

0:41:51.080 --> 0:41:53.560
<v Speaker 1>and the good family, the good friends and all that.

0:41:54.360 --> 0:41:56.480
<v Speaker 1>If you tell someone then they're not supporting you. May

0:41:56.480 --> 0:42:00.200
<v Speaker 1>be that friendship, all that relationships and other's strongly you

0:42:00.320 --> 0:42:03.920
<v Speaker 1>thought that would be, but people close to you and

0:42:04.320 --> 0:42:08.240
<v Speaker 1>I really do believe there's importance in sharing that sharing

0:42:08.280 --> 0:42:11.480
<v Speaker 1>that trauma. Yeah, and you're not burdening people with it.

0:42:11.520 --> 0:42:14.200
<v Speaker 1>You're just saying, hey, I need a hand now, yeah,

0:42:14.400 --> 0:42:15.200
<v Speaker 1>a little bit of help.

0:42:15.440 --> 0:42:17.359
<v Speaker 2>And it's actually the first Some of the feedback I've

0:42:17.400 --> 0:42:19.160
<v Speaker 2>had too is we understand you a bit more now,

0:42:20.000 --> 0:42:23.040
<v Speaker 2>we understand why you are who you are and what

0:42:23.120 --> 0:42:26.400
<v Speaker 2>makes you tick. And I've accepted that that's part of me.

0:42:26.600 --> 0:42:29.279
<v Speaker 2>So that aspect too, was actually made a lot of

0:42:29.320 --> 0:42:29.840
<v Speaker 2>us closer.

0:42:30.200 --> 0:42:33.400
<v Speaker 1>How do you think it changed what you've been through,

0:42:34.000 --> 0:42:38.080
<v Speaker 1>like the trajectory of your life and you know, like

0:42:38.160 --> 0:42:41.600
<v Speaker 1>you must have been competing or gymnastics at the high level.

0:42:41.680 --> 0:42:44.120
<v Speaker 1>Was it a passion that you hadn't then you just

0:42:44.239 --> 0:42:46.000
<v Speaker 1>lost it because of his actions?

0:42:46.080 --> 0:42:48.560
<v Speaker 2>Or yeah, yeah, I definitely lost it because of him. Know,

0:42:48.600 --> 0:42:50.840
<v Speaker 2>I was coaching. It was my first job was to coach,

0:42:51.000 --> 0:42:54.200
<v Speaker 2>so you know, it definitely changed it. It affected those relationships.

0:42:54.280 --> 0:42:57.279
<v Speaker 2>It's some really really good friendships growing up and it's

0:42:57.280 --> 0:43:00.640
<v Speaker 2>affected them. Affected my ability to go back to your hometown.

0:43:01.280 --> 0:43:03.600
<v Speaker 2>I haven't, you know, I don't particularly look back in

0:43:03.640 --> 0:43:05.880
<v Speaker 2>that part of my life with fond memories of course,

0:43:06.200 --> 0:43:09.480
<v Speaker 2>with that associated trauma. So even going home at Christmas

0:43:09.520 --> 0:43:12.320
<v Speaker 2>to visit Mum and dad, you know, going past places

0:43:12.320 --> 0:43:15.160
<v Speaker 2>that you once once it had all unlocked. I didn't

0:43:15.560 --> 0:43:18.759
<v Speaker 2>Mum and Dad saw those last four or five years.

0:43:18.800 --> 0:43:22.560
<v Speaker 2>I wasn't going home. It was too much, too much

0:43:22.560 --> 0:43:25.799
<v Speaker 2>to go. So so look, I think it's changed those

0:43:25.840 --> 0:43:27.920
<v Speaker 2>aspects of it doesn't change me overall. I think it's

0:43:27.920 --> 0:43:33.160
<v Speaker 2>probably made me a lot more emotionally intelligent. You become

0:43:33.200 --> 0:43:35.120
<v Speaker 2>a cop to help protect others, and now I look

0:43:35.160 --> 0:43:37.719
<v Speaker 2>back in hindsight, I think it may be a better cop.

0:43:37.840 --> 0:43:43.200
<v Speaker 2>Just those instincts managing victims and empathy and care, but

0:43:43.360 --> 0:43:46.279
<v Speaker 2>didn't manage my own internal self well, a lot of

0:43:46.280 --> 0:43:50.000
<v Speaker 2>trust issues. You know, I haven't always done the right

0:43:50.000 --> 0:43:52.600
<v Speaker 2>thing with alcohol, drink too much because it was a

0:43:52.600 --> 0:43:56.279
<v Speaker 2>coping mechanism, you know, shut down, just shut down. So

0:43:56.480 --> 0:43:59.320
<v Speaker 2>rather than being vulnerable enough to talk about how it

0:43:59.360 --> 0:44:03.279
<v Speaker 2>is feeling or what emotions where that be policing, tron whatever,

0:44:03.280 --> 0:44:05.319
<v Speaker 2>it was just shut down. But eventually, or to the

0:44:05.320 --> 0:44:09.040
<v Speaker 2>point you through through all the counseling of leaning into

0:44:09.040 --> 0:44:12.920
<v Speaker 2>that and being vulnerable and hence the ted talk, of

0:44:13.680 --> 0:44:15.520
<v Speaker 2>of trying to be that man that the younger version

0:44:15.520 --> 0:44:16.279
<v Speaker 2>of me would look up to.

0:44:16.800 --> 0:44:19.400
<v Speaker 1>Well, I've made notes here of that, and I was

0:44:19.440 --> 0:44:22.600
<v Speaker 1>going to hit you up with that very thing. That

0:44:22.800 --> 0:44:25.960
<v Speaker 1>was your your ted talk and what you just quoted.

0:44:26.080 --> 0:44:28.600
<v Speaker 1>Would the boy I once looked up to look up

0:44:28.600 --> 0:44:32.640
<v Speaker 1>to the man I am today? How would you answer that?

0:44:36.680 --> 0:44:43.359
<v Speaker 2>I mean asked that. Funnily enough, I've asked that. Look,

0:44:43.400 --> 0:44:46.920
<v Speaker 2>it's it's I hope that that well, I know, I

0:44:46.920 --> 0:44:49.640
<v Speaker 2>won't hope that foten year old boy would would trust me,

0:44:49.960 --> 0:44:52.239
<v Speaker 2>the version of me now you trust me, And I'd

0:44:52.280 --> 0:44:53.880
<v Speaker 2>hope that it would be a safe enough place that

0:44:54.440 --> 0:44:57.799
<v Speaker 2>he could come and say what happened and know that

0:44:57.840 --> 0:45:00.880
<v Speaker 2>I protect him, So that that's the biggest one. But

0:45:00.960 --> 0:45:04.839
<v Speaker 2>also I think that that version of me would would

0:45:04.840 --> 0:45:07.160
<v Speaker 2>hopefully look to me as a role model on how

0:45:07.239 --> 0:45:10.239
<v Speaker 2>to how to be better as a person and how

0:45:10.280 --> 0:45:14.440
<v Speaker 2>to conduct yourself through life so that your relationships are better,

0:45:14.880 --> 0:45:17.880
<v Speaker 2>your professional life is better, and to just be a

0:45:17.960 --> 0:45:21.440
<v Speaker 2>good human. So I think that's what the fourty and

0:45:21.480 --> 0:45:24.919
<v Speaker 2>year old me would hopefully lean into. And I don't

0:45:24.960 --> 0:45:27.880
<v Speaker 2>I don't think my life would have been incredibly different

0:45:27.920 --> 0:45:30.000
<v Speaker 2>to what it has been given what happened. I think

0:45:30.000 --> 0:45:34.279
<v Speaker 2>it's probably just forged to more purposeful me, particularly in

0:45:34.280 --> 0:45:35.839
<v Speaker 2>this next phase of my life. And that's how I'm

0:45:35.880 --> 0:45:38.520
<v Speaker 2>looking at it. I've got the pre me and the post,

0:45:39.080 --> 0:45:43.720
<v Speaker 2>and that the post me post post. Understanding what happened

0:45:43.719 --> 0:45:46.320
<v Speaker 2>and dealing with it. That next version of my life

0:45:46.360 --> 0:45:47.480
<v Speaker 2>is look out.

0:45:48.400 --> 0:45:52.359
<v Speaker 1>Well, I've got to got to say this, and you've

0:45:52.400 --> 0:45:56.160
<v Speaker 1>carried a lot of responsibility in your job, like I

0:45:56.200 --> 0:46:00.239
<v Speaker 1>think all the cops that have served and done their

0:46:00.239 --> 0:46:02.360
<v Speaker 1>best to make society a better place, and I know

0:46:02.440 --> 0:46:05.680
<v Speaker 1>the sharp end of policing that you're working at. You're

0:46:05.680 --> 0:46:09.719
<v Speaker 1>looking an advocate for police veterans and looking at that

0:46:10.480 --> 0:46:14.799
<v Speaker 1>side of things again. Contributing your post career has been

0:46:15.120 --> 0:46:18.799
<v Speaker 1>quite amazing. You've was it the logis you went to.

0:46:19.000 --> 0:46:21.839
<v Speaker 2>It's a bit embarrassing there. It's hard to listen to. Yeah, yeah,

0:46:21.920 --> 0:46:23.840
<v Speaker 2>who would have thought, but yeah, went to the logis

0:46:23.840 --> 0:46:25.520
<v Speaker 2>and you can tick that one off.

0:46:25.719 --> 0:46:28.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Not many people when you joined the police think

0:46:28.520 --> 0:46:30.080
<v Speaker 1>they're going to end up at the logis. But you

0:46:30.120 --> 0:46:32.760
<v Speaker 1>went to the logis for your role in the show

0:46:32.880 --> 0:46:37.200
<v Speaker 1>A Hunted where you were using your police police skills.

0:46:37.640 --> 0:46:41.840
<v Speaker 1>And you've now set up a company, Peregrine, for looking

0:46:41.880 --> 0:46:47.480
<v Speaker 1>at AI and the future of criminal investigations. You're complaining

0:46:47.520 --> 0:46:51.879
<v Speaker 1>about your success of your kids sporting abilities. Now you've

0:46:51.880 --> 0:46:55.879
<v Speaker 1>got to travel travel further. I don't know. I'm looking

0:46:55.920 --> 0:46:59.200
<v Speaker 1>at you. You seem like you're pretty content in life now,

0:46:59.239 --> 0:47:01.640
<v Speaker 1>and I think it's good because it was a journey

0:47:01.719 --> 0:47:03.560
<v Speaker 1>that could have headed off in the wrong direction.

0:47:04.120 --> 0:47:07.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, it could have. And you look, you're just

0:47:07.320 --> 0:47:10.200
<v Speaker 2>reminded me of that time where it all came out,

0:47:10.239 --> 0:47:13.680
<v Speaker 2>and that time of leaving policing and dealing with all

0:47:13.760 --> 0:47:16.400
<v Speaker 2>of these things at once was a real critical time

0:47:16.840 --> 0:47:19.120
<v Speaker 2>and I could have turned to many different things. And

0:47:19.160 --> 0:47:21.880
<v Speaker 2>I did go into I did shut down, but eventually

0:47:22.480 --> 0:47:25.759
<v Speaker 2>I had some decisions in myself to make and to

0:47:26.160 --> 0:47:27.440
<v Speaker 2>look at, well, what am I going to do here?

0:47:27.480 --> 0:47:29.719
<v Speaker 2>What am I in control of? And that's a hard

0:47:30.360 --> 0:47:32.839
<v Speaker 2>it's a hard bit to understand, but even harder bit

0:47:32.880 --> 0:47:34.640
<v Speaker 2>to an act. So what am I going to do?

0:47:34.680 --> 0:47:36.279
<v Speaker 2>I need to get my ass off the couch and

0:47:36.320 --> 0:47:38.480
<v Speaker 2>I need to stop drinking. I need to open the

0:47:38.480 --> 0:47:41.160
<v Speaker 2>blinds because literally would shut the blinds and shut the

0:47:41.160 --> 0:47:44.080
<v Speaker 2>world off. I need to deal with this because otherwise

0:47:44.239 --> 0:47:46.600
<v Speaker 2>I'm just going to end up that crusty I'd seen

0:47:46.640 --> 0:47:49.359
<v Speaker 2>a detective that was on TV once, So what I'm

0:47:49.360 --> 0:47:51.200
<v Speaker 2>I going to do with my life? So dealt with it?

0:47:51.239 --> 0:47:53.040
<v Speaker 2>And but that's easy said then done, and it still is.

0:47:53.080 --> 0:47:55.440
<v Speaker 2>It's still a struggle. As I said, you know, yesterday

0:47:55.520 --> 0:47:58.200
<v Speaker 2>wasn't a great day, but it's okay to not be okay.

0:47:58.360 --> 0:48:01.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Well, full credit to you having the courage to

0:48:01.400 --> 0:48:03.840
<v Speaker 1>talk so openly about what you've been through. And I

0:48:04.160 --> 0:48:07.400
<v Speaker 1>think you are making a difference. And I know because

0:48:07.800 --> 0:48:10.560
<v Speaker 1>I left the cops around the same time you did,

0:48:10.920 --> 0:48:13.840
<v Speaker 1>and I think our careers were fairly similar in the

0:48:13.880 --> 0:48:17.000
<v Speaker 1>way we threw ourselves into policing and it's dis orientating.

0:48:17.560 --> 0:48:20.440
<v Speaker 1>And then you were carrying in addition, you were carrying

0:48:20.760 --> 0:48:23.440
<v Speaker 1>what we've been talking about today. And I look at

0:48:23.480 --> 0:48:26.080
<v Speaker 1>where you're sitting now and what you're doing. You're kicking

0:48:26.080 --> 0:48:27.280
<v Speaker 1>goals left, right and center.

0:48:27.320 --> 0:48:30.320
<v Speaker 2>So congratulations, Thanks, it's all we're going to do. Yeah,

0:48:30.480 --> 0:48:32.920
<v Speaker 2>I really appreciate I really appreciate the Eye Catch Killer's

0:48:32.960 --> 0:48:35.480
<v Speaker 2>team give me the opportunity to talk about this topic

0:48:35.520 --> 0:48:37.359
<v Speaker 2>and putting some light on Yeah.

0:48:37.400 --> 0:48:38.600
<v Speaker 1>Well, thanks for trusting us.

0:48:38.719 --> 0:48:39.560
<v Speaker 2>Thanks Jeers.

0:48:40.960 --> 0:48:43.800
<v Speaker 1>I want to thank Graham for his courage in sharing

0:48:43.840 --> 0:48:47.240
<v Speaker 1>his story, which I know is incredibly difficult to relive.

0:48:48.280 --> 0:48:50.640
<v Speaker 1>I commend him for the important work he has done

0:48:51.480 --> 0:48:54.640
<v Speaker 1>not only over his career but now sharing his personal

0:48:54.680 --> 0:48:58.120
<v Speaker 1>story to keep bringing these issues to light. Graham has

0:48:58.160 --> 0:49:01.399
<v Speaker 1>dedicated decades of his life to apporting victims and we

0:49:01.440 --> 0:49:05.240
<v Speaker 1>support him. Now to our listeners, as I mentioned throughout

0:49:05.320 --> 0:49:08.279
<v Speaker 1>this two part series, I need to reiterate that this

0:49:08.320 --> 0:49:12.400
<v Speaker 1>interview was recorded before Graham's case went to trial. Ultimately,

0:49:12.520 --> 0:49:16.719
<v Speaker 1>Graham's case resulted in an acquittal. However, the same individual

0:49:17.040 --> 0:49:20.839
<v Speaker 1>also faced trials over a number of other historical sexual offenses.

0:49:21.640 --> 0:49:24.399
<v Speaker 1>He pleaded not guilty to all charges. He has found

0:49:24.440 --> 0:49:28.800
<v Speaker 1>guilty of sexual offenses relating to four victims. The defendant

0:49:28.840 --> 0:49:32.120
<v Speaker 1>maintains his innocence and has filed a motion to appeal

0:49:32.200 --> 0:49:36.160
<v Speaker 1>those convictions. Finally, as Graham and I had discussed today,

0:49:36.360 --> 0:49:39.120
<v Speaker 1>you do not have to carry these burdens alone. If

0:49:39.160 --> 0:49:42.360
<v Speaker 1>anything we've talked about has raised issues for you, or

0:49:42.400 --> 0:49:45.399
<v Speaker 1>if you or someone you know needs help, please reach

0:49:45.440 --> 0:49:48.680
<v Speaker 1>out to support services like one eight hundred. Respect