Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average persons never
Speaker 1: exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my conversation with Graham Simpendorfer.
Speaker 1: Before we resume the interview, as I mentioned in part one,
Speaker 1: I need to note this conversation was recorded before Graham's
Speaker 1: case went to trial. In the time since this record
Speaker 1: with him, Graham's case has resulted in an acquittal. However,
Speaker 1: the same individual also face trials over a number of
Speaker 1: other historical sexual offenses. He pleaded not guilty to all
Speaker 1: the charges he has found guilty of sexual offenses relating
Speaker 1: to four victims. The defendant maintains his innocence and has
Speaker 1: filed the motion to appeal those convictions. Now, let's get
Speaker 1: back into the conversation. Graham, Welcome back to part two.
Speaker 1: Thanks mate again. I'm going to keep putting these apologies
Speaker 1: in because I know, yeah, I'm asking you to relive
Speaker 1: some traumatic stuff. But as we're both discussed, it's good
Speaker 1: that people are talking about these type of things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's why I want to come out
Speaker 2: and tell my stories to try and get a light
Speaker 2: on it that this does happen. And there's probably a
Speaker 2: lot of men out there in my age, in their
Speaker 2: fifties that have been through a similar experience, if not worse,
Speaker 2: that are still trying to deal with this on their own.
Speaker 2: And I hope that by sharing what happened to me
Speaker 2: and part of my story either gives them some comfort
Speaker 2: that they're not alone. But if they want to get help,
Speaker 2: then there is really good help out there. There's really
Speaker 2: good places for counseling, and that's judicial system aside. The
Speaker 2: court process, as we've talked about, is completely different, but
Speaker 2: there is help out there. You don't have to just
Speaker 2: report to the cops to get help. You can just
Speaker 2: contact one of.
Speaker 1: The Yeah, that's a good message to get out because
Speaker 1: sometimes that barrier is that I'm not ready to go
Speaker 1: to the cops, but you want help.
Speaker 2: But yeah, you don't have to. You can disclose to
Speaker 2: one of the practitioners that the centers against violence that
Speaker 2: are around the country, or I think there's one eight
Speaker 2: hundred respect that you can dial. But you know, there's
Speaker 2: supports lines that you can call. But that doesn't mean
Speaker 2: that the police is going to get called. Yes, it's
Speaker 2: victim first.
Speaker 1: Well, I think that's important and speaking to a lot
Speaker 1: of people in that field of criminal investigation, the victim's
Speaker 1: power has been taken away when they're abused as children,
Speaker 1: and it's important they have control on what the processes are.
Speaker 1: And I think people in that line of work will
Speaker 1: acknowledge that. And they're not going to railroad you into
Speaker 1: just because you reach out. They're not going to railroad
Speaker 1: you into. You've got to report this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent. And you know, the people that
Speaker 2: have been doing it for a long time know that exactly.
Speaker 2: The statistics are not great on those that actually disclose,
Speaker 2: to those that then make a police statement, to those
Speaker 2: that then make it to a charge, then those that
Speaker 2: actually get into a court room, and those that are convicted.
Speaker 2: I think it's look again, I need to check on
Speaker 2: things like less than three percent.
Speaker 1: Those figures flow around in my head. I think that's
Speaker 1: you're roughly on the right right number there.
Speaker 2: So some of the some of the victims that would
Speaker 2: sit before me when I was in charge at the
Speaker 2: sex offense Unit, the first thing I'd say is what
Speaker 2: is it you want to get out of this? What
Speaker 2: is it you want? Because if you want a conviction
Speaker 2: at court, we'll try our dartist and what will work
Speaker 2: absolute butts off to try and get that. But the reality,
Speaker 2: hard reality is that, particularly if it's a one on
Speaker 2: one fence that's historical, you're up against it from the start.
Speaker 2: But I would say to them, but if you want
Speaker 2: me to drag this person in, arrest them and make
Speaker 2: them undergo an interview for a good couple of hours
Speaker 2: and make them for a really uncomfortable I'm your man.
Speaker 2: Absolutely I can do that.
Speaker 1: And I think that's a fear and I hear it's
Speaker 1: time and time again when that knock on the door.
Speaker 1: And I like saying that when we're talking about this subject,
Speaker 1: that anyone that's offended in this nature just wait. You
Speaker 1: don't know how long it will be, but someone might
Speaker 1: come knocking on your door and we'll be police wanting
Speaker 1: to ask you some very uncomfortable questions.
Speaker 2: Correct, And that's part of again, why why I'm here.
Speaker 2: You give people some strength ort to know you're not alone.
Speaker 2: There's plenty of us victim survivors out there that will
Speaker 2: support you and the police and hopefully the victims support services.
Speaker 2: But they need some more resourcing. They need some more.
Speaker 2: We just spoke about the amount of police resources. They
Speaker 2: need more. They need more counselors, they need more funding
Speaker 2: to deal with this because it's only the more that
Speaker 2: we disclose the more the people come forward. You don't
Speaker 2: want them waiting for counseling or having to go on
Speaker 2: we can't get to you for six weeks.
Speaker 1: Well, I've come away after being in this role for
Speaker 1: a long time and speaking to people from all sides
Speaker 1: of the law and the courts and the prison system
Speaker 1: and all that. If we really want to make a
Speaker 1: difference on crime, let's reduce child sexual assault. Because you
Speaker 1: look at how many people are in prison because of
Speaker 1: child sexual assault, or how many people whose life has
Speaker 1: gone off off track with mental health issues because of
Speaker 1: child sexual sexual assaults. We can make the place a
Speaker 1: better place if we can reduce the nature of the.
Speaker 2: Crime exactly, generational change. It's got to start. Why not start?
Speaker 1: And statistically you talk three percent that starts from the
Speaker 1: reporting of it to the conviction at court, which is
Speaker 1: extremely low and disappointing, but that's the nature of the
Speaker 1: type of investigations. But also statistically, what thirty one years
Speaker 1: before a male victim of a sexual abuse child sexual
Speaker 1: abuse comes forth and disclay and one in five.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're just scary to think about it and quite
Speaker 2: confronting really to think that one in five met boys
Speaker 2: have been abused at some point one in three women
Speaker 2: or girls And it's scary stats. And that's got to change.
Speaker 2: And if we don't start trying to do something about
Speaker 2: it now, how many victims more we're going to see.
Speaker 2: We don't want it to be our own kids. But
Speaker 2: you know, it's got to start, and we've got to
Speaker 2: start by talking about it and normalizing. I guess that
Speaker 2: it's okay to be a victim not giving that shame
Speaker 2: attached to it and just let anyone know that it's
Speaker 2: going to be okay. I think that's the biggest thing
Speaker 2: for me, was you know that those close to you
Speaker 2: and those who really care about you have got you.
Speaker 2: They've got your back, and you know. There's that many
Speaker 2: times I've I think even yesterday I said to my partner,
Speaker 2: just not having a good day. I think the anxiety
Speaker 2: of talking about this and adding yourself to it all
Speaker 2: publicly for the first time, how you're feeling, I'm not
Speaker 2: having a good day. But she's like, yeah, I've got you,
Speaker 2: It's okay, and that's normal. So to lean into that
Speaker 2: support was hard because for so long have the mask
Speaker 2: on and just try and deal with it yourself. It's
Speaker 2: been life changing for me to acknowledge, yes, this happened
Speaker 2: to me, wasn't my fault, and I'm going to be
Speaker 2: okay by telling someone. And I made the choice then
Speaker 2: to go that next step and take on the judicial system.
Speaker 2: And it does feel like I'm taking on the judicial system.
Speaker 2: It's less about me taking on him. I'm actually fighting
Speaker 2: a system that is geared towards he accused, and I'm
Speaker 2: fighting at every single well, it's been nearly four years.
Speaker 1: And you feel like you're fighting that you understand the system,
Speaker 1: you've been part of the system, and it's still a
Speaker 1: struggle for you accepting what's going on with the system.
Speaker 1: Imagine people that have no idea what the system is
Speaker 1: all about and would naively walk in and say, hey,
Speaker 1: I wanted to disclose this. So we're all going to
Speaker 1: get this resolved. And it's not that simple. I think
Speaker 1: people would be interested in you taking this through the system.
Speaker 1: From your perspective as a person that's reporting the crime
Speaker 1: to police, talk us through what you have to go through.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so first, first things first, you've got to have
Speaker 2: the courage to walk into a cop shop or pick
Speaker 2: up the phone and report. You know, I picked up
Speaker 2: the phone to a colleague from the border that has
Speaker 2: worked with me. You know, we've done entries forced entries
Speaker 2: together as cross border cops. To pick up the phone
Speaker 2: to him and say, hey, I'm reaching out to disclose
Speaker 2: and I want to make a statement. He was flawed.
Speaker 2: So it was the first step. But then okay, we'll
Speaker 2: get someone to contact you. Because it was a Wogger
Speaker 2: police investigation where it happened, they needed to deal with it.
Speaker 2: So we'll have someone that's already on the case, because
Speaker 2: you remember I said someone had already come forward. Oh,
Speaker 2: they'll get the officer in charge of that case to
Speaker 2: be in contact with you. And he was great, Blake,
Speaker 2: he was, will come over to see you. We'll come
Speaker 2: to ally, we'll see you. So we made a time
Speaker 2: for an appointment. I've got to say, like the anxiety
Speaker 2: and stress for the days leading up to that appointment
Speaker 2: was I'd never had an anxiety attack, and holy shit,
Speaker 2: you know to know that day's coming, and I've got
Speaker 2: to tell my story for someone that's.
Speaker 1: I put in perspective the things you would have seen
Speaker 1: and done in policing, and that knowing that you've got
Speaker 1: to actually sit down with the police officer. You understand
Speaker 1: the police. But that was so terrifying that you had
Speaker 1: a panic attack in the day leading up to.
Speaker 2: So confronting because you're dealing with your childhood trauma.
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, So it's not Graham, the hard ass detective sergeant,
Speaker 1: it's the child.
Speaker 2: At that stage, I wanted it to be the hard
Speaker 2: ass put the mask on and then get clinical about it.
Speaker 2: And there was parts that I did, but there was parts.
Speaker 2: You know, I needed needed the tissue box to let
Speaker 2: it out because you're reliving it, so you're unlocking that trauma.
Speaker 2: And I think that's what brought the anxiety of it's
Speaker 2: actually fourteen year old Graham that's making this statement. And yes,
Speaker 2: there's the ad me that's been done, you know, some
Speaker 2: pretty scary stuff and trained specifically on how to deal
Speaker 2: with fear and how to deal with active shooter incidents
Speaker 2: and being the person running towards you stop the killing.
Speaker 2: That training, But then to make a statement that's your
Speaker 2: own vulnerability because it's about you being a kid.
Speaker 1: You felt like you're back. Is that forth in your
Speaker 1: old's right?
Speaker 2: You know? And if I had my time again, I
Speaker 2: probably should have told others close to me that I
Speaker 2: was doing that, but it was something I felt I
Speaker 2: wanted to do on my own. Probably in hindsight now
Speaker 2: I've actually opened up too close friends and family that
Speaker 2: I should have actually got support to do that, but
Speaker 2: there was just something in me.
Speaker 1: Someone longer support you just I'll do this.
Speaker 2: I'll do it.
Speaker 1: I've just given a statement. Yeah that's right, statements, you know.
Speaker 2: And again the police then that that dealt with me
Speaker 2: on that day Blake and his colleague from They're amazing.
Speaker 2: They are very mindful of who I was and obviously
Speaker 2: the history I had, and I'd investigated just as much
Speaker 2: as they had. But this was the hardest one because
Speaker 2: I've got to play the role as a victim. But
Speaker 2: all the little things that I knew that needed to
Speaker 2: go in the statement I tried. I bought along things
Speaker 2: to help corroborate where I was in my life, Like
Speaker 2: I've got a draw full of medals from gymnasts that
Speaker 2: so when I know it's before this, pharto and I
Speaker 2: know it's before this. And look, my mum had kept everything,
Speaker 2: like everything, every paper clipping, everything, which ended up being
Speaker 2: absolute God send to narrow down the times because the
Speaker 2: police you want to know what date this happened, as
Speaker 2: you charge sheet says on this particular date or between
Speaker 2: this date and this date. So I was able to
Speaker 2: take all that along with me. I've done my homework,
Speaker 2: but I was still anxious as a little hell.
Speaker 1: To type up your own stuff.
Speaker 2: What's I think Blake had said, Nah, I think let's
Speaker 2: just let the process take its course as it should.
Speaker 1: Be, probably carrying a different more weight. If the police
Speaker 1: were there and yeah, then they could be in the
Speaker 1: witness box and being questioned about how you reacted.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so we just followed the book and
Speaker 2: got to respect that that was just all by the book.
Speaker 2: But you know, after I can't remember after a lot
Speaker 2: of pages later, in a few hours of telling my
Speaker 2: statement to the police and signing it and walking out,
Speaker 2: I still vividly remember walking out of the Aubrey Crop
Speaker 2: shop and and the weight was gone, or explain that
Speaker 2: to me. Well, for so many you know, for so
Speaker 2: many years since that that lecture where it all came back.
Speaker 2: We're talking years, years and years. I think three to
Speaker 2: five years or something like that. I think I lost
Speaker 2: a few years in there somewhere. But it was a
Speaker 2: significant amount of time of carrying it on your own
Speaker 2: and trying to deal with it. I was able to
Speaker 2: tell my story to someone else on paper, and it
Speaker 2: was like it was a shared story. Now that's that's
Speaker 2: yours now to deal with. I'm not alone and carrying
Speaker 2: this weight anymore. It was a physical response of feeling
Speaker 2: like that weight had lifted as I walked back to
Speaker 2: my car, and I'm like, I can leave that back
Speaker 2: there now as well. I can actually leave that with
Speaker 2: them to deal with. I've told them my story. It's
Speaker 2: going to take its process, and I guess that's the
Speaker 2: next point of what we're talking about, is then the
Speaker 2: police got to do their investigation. And the expectation versus reality.
Speaker 1: Well, you would have struggled because you'd know what needed
Speaker 1: to be done, and I would imagine you'd be say,
Speaker 1: when are you going to do this? When are you
Speaker 1: going to do that? You would be pain.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it was almost you know, these are the
Speaker 2: people that can corroborate that paragraph. These are people to
Speaker 2: corroborate that parent did the investigation plan, here's this is
Speaker 2: that And you know, look, I volunteered to the police,
Speaker 2: and I was very adamant, I said at the right time.
Speaker 2: I said, I'm I'm willing and I'm up for ringing him.
Speaker 2: And I hadn't spoken to this guy in a long
Speaker 2: long time, and I had come across him, but it
Speaker 2: had been a long time since I'd even spoken with
Speaker 2: him and didn't know his phone number anything. But there
Speaker 2: was a way to find that out.
Speaker 1: So this this was to gather additional evidence or corroborative evidence.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I hope to confront him and you take
Speaker 2: that power back, but obtain some evidence with the police's
Speaker 2: help with a warrant. They're going to warrant for me
Speaker 2: to ring him and record that conversation, so you know,
Speaker 2: to try and corroborate and give weight to my statement,
Speaker 2: which is which is confronting him over what I did
Speaker 2: in the hope that he would admit it or give
Speaker 2: some indication to something that would help the court form
Speaker 2: the view that it's beyond a reasonable doubt that that
Speaker 2: did occur.
Speaker 1: How did you feel before making call, the.
Speaker 2: Actual physical call of Kareem, Oh, my god, I thought
Speaker 2: I had an anxiety attack making a statement.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would imagine that would have been pressure.
Speaker 2: I've asked people to do this before, and I now
Speaker 2: completely understand what I was actually asking them to do,
Speaker 2: because again you remember I said I locked it away,
Speaker 2: and even asking people to do that didn't bring it
Speaker 2: back for me. But here I am now as a victim,
Speaker 2: and I volunteered, and my intention was to try and
Speaker 2: get enough evidence that this guy had no choice but
Speaker 2: to plead guilty, and hopefully if other people come forward,
Speaker 2: it would save everyone from going through a trial. That
Speaker 2: was my intent, still trying to protect others, because I
Speaker 2: knew that the process of a trial it's an absolute
Speaker 2: shit show. It's traumatizing. Again and again there's delays that's traumatizing.
Speaker 2: So we'd locked it in for a particular day and
Speaker 2: time and again that'd come over to where I was
Speaker 2: in Aubury, and that night before really didn't get much
Speaker 2: sleep at all, and I think I can't remember. I
Speaker 2: think i'd fragmented something. Was I booked in for a
Speaker 2: one o'clock phone call because they had to record that
Speaker 2: conversation and not having any sleep and the anxiety of
Speaker 2: it all, and i'd actually gone through with I mentioned before.
Speaker 2: Patrick Tidmarsh was the man who was the lecturer at
Speaker 2: the Police Academy when all this came back. He had
Speaker 2: moved over to the UK, I think at that stage,
Speaker 2: and was lecturing the UK Police about best practice models
Speaker 2: on this. I'd rung him because I disclosed to him
Speaker 2: after that lecture and I said, look, I want to
Speaker 2: ring this guy and I want to confront him. How
Speaker 2: my best attackle this conversation to a take the powerback
Speaker 2: and try and get some evidence out of just leaning
Speaker 2: on him that I'm now the one in control and
Speaker 2: get him to either admit or give some evidence that
Speaker 2: would help. So we structured a conversation that took that
Speaker 2: power back immediately in the phone call. And so I'm
Speaker 2: rehearsing this the night before. How am I going to be?
Speaker 2: Has the emotion going to be? You know, don't show
Speaker 2: and you don't let him know that you're struggling and
Speaker 2: just take that power back. And easier said than done.
Speaker 2: But we got to think about twelve thirty in the
Speaker 2: afternoon and the cops still hadn't arrived, and I think
Speaker 2: I've got a text message, you know, seem we're running
Speaker 2: bit late. We're just going to go grab a bite
Speaker 2: tweet And I'm like, yeah, really completely innocent. And that's
Speaker 2: fine because that's the relationship we had, you know, nicknames,
Speaker 2: and they've known me, and I understand that. But from
Speaker 2: a victim's point of view, I went, oh my god,
Speaker 2: one o'clock.
Speaker 1: You cringe that. I cringe, like there's sometimes and I'm
Speaker 1: not you speak highly. Yeah, of course, yeah, that's just
Speaker 1: but my thing is and this is just the little
Speaker 1: things that you wait for your lunch after if you've
Speaker 1: got someone hanging on that.
Speaker 2: And I never I never brought it up with him.
Speaker 2: In fantasy to them, but we'll.
Speaker 1: Give I'll give him a wrap and the slap.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but it was just it's just I think
Speaker 2: it highlights that for me, everything how sensitive for me.
Speaker 2: That rocked me. And again, you know, I've done all
Speaker 2: these investigations for nearly thirty years, and that rocked me.
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh god, I've now been pushed back to when. Yeah,
Speaker 2: because I was ready for that one o'clock. Okay, it's
Speaker 2: come as come as comes come. And and I've probably
Speaker 2: done that to people myself in homicide or robbery or
Speaker 2: sex offenses where you've unintentionally said something that was just
Speaker 2: bau run of the mill. I just need to go
Speaker 2: get lunch and then we'll be with you, as opposed
Speaker 2: to we're just call behind time and really sorry, it
Speaker 2: will be there soon or whatever.
Speaker 1: And this only came from I learned from people that
Speaker 1: were my mentors, and that that says little things that
Speaker 1: can just rattle someone. Yeah, even if you're dealing with
Speaker 1: criminal informants, it's yeah, and it's not all about it's
Speaker 1: got to be on time. It's just those little things
Speaker 1: that you know someone's struggling. Just smooth as much as possible. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's that's delay. When you look at it, we'll
Speaker 1: do it really matter, maybe not to the outside but
Speaker 1: to the person going through what you were going through.
Speaker 1: It was. It was a big thing.
Speaker 2: And the impact that could have had on the phone
Speaker 2: call or then the evidence.
Speaker 1: Because you're your rattle.
Speaker 2: So I had to get my ship together and was fine.
Speaker 2: And as soon as I saw them, was all fine.
Speaker 2: And you know, clearly I've got.
Speaker 1: No roube, but clearly that one go.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but look reset and and made the call and
Speaker 2: it was all recorded and there's a bit to it.
Speaker 2: So initially I think, you know, and the initial part
Speaker 2: he was quite pleased to hear from me. It was
Speaker 2: almost friendly. I stopped that straight away because that was
Speaker 2: the tactic that Patrick and I had spoken about, and
Speaker 2: it was confronting. I just cannot again just the physical
Speaker 2: and psychological responses of that call of because the fourteen
Speaker 2: year old me was trying to trying to come out
Speaker 2: from that conversation was taking myself back to time and place,
Speaker 2: because I had to take him back to time and place.
Speaker 2: So I had to literally say what he did so
Speaker 2: that there's no mistake for anyone that would listen to
Speaker 2: that phone call exactly what I was talking about. I
Speaker 2: wasn't hinting at you know, it did, Mate, No, right
Speaker 2: into it, you know. And and and that's just where
Speaker 2: we had to take it. And that was hard because
Speaker 2: the fourty year old me's bubbling up like getting upset.
Speaker 2: But I've had to put this mask on and not
Speaker 2: give him an inch that he had any control in
Speaker 2: his conversation whatsoever, that I'm the one in charge now.
Speaker 2: And look, it's okay, it was. It was. It was
Speaker 2: a bit of a conversation. I don't recall a lot
Speaker 2: of it, but you know, it'll it'll be it's played
Speaker 2: in court and it is for everyone to hear.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I can see, yeah, you demean that change
Speaker 1: just talking about I can see the impact it had
Speaker 1: on you. But yeah, taking it all back right at
Speaker 1: the sharp end, isn't it. You're speaking to speaking to
Speaker 1: the person's Yeah.
Speaker 2: And look, if it ended there, yeah, you know, I
Speaker 2: would have liked to obviously, and he was and he
Speaker 2: is charged. If it had ended there, I probably would
Speaker 2: have been half content as well. Yeah, half, Well.
Speaker 1: That's confronting your abuser. You did that, and I can
Speaker 1: understand that would give you some satisfaction.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it certainly didn't. And I think it was again
Speaker 2: another real important point in the whole journey of I
Speaker 2: guess trauma that tick. I've done that, I wanted to
Speaker 2: do that. Not everyone's up for it, and I'm not here,
Speaker 2: certainly sitting here saying that that's an option for everyone,
Speaker 2: because it's bloody confronting.
Speaker 1: It.
Speaker 2: Took a long time to get over it. And now
Speaker 2: every time there's a court process or a court date,
Speaker 2: or the anxiety of that being called and me having
Speaker 2: to listen to it again and owning that, the fear
Speaker 2: of that, I don't know why I fear it, but
Speaker 2: the fear of that foot and year old boy coming
Speaker 2: out and being upset. I've learned to just lean in
Speaker 2: and live it. And I don't know, I don't know
Speaker 2: what can trigger It'd probably come out of you, so
Speaker 2: the issues close. But that's part of part of that
Speaker 2: vulnerability of letting it go and and whether that was
Speaker 2: the end game for my journey on that or whether
Speaker 2: it end up in charges. But I think I'm trying
Speaker 2: to say an a round about w everyone is you've
Speaker 2: got to understand what it is that's gonna be good
Speaker 2: for you. Now, if that means just telling a story
Speaker 2: to a counselor that's fine, that's one hundred percent fine.
Speaker 2: If it's just telling someone close to you, or if
Speaker 2: it's telling the police, or if you are for all,
Speaker 2: I want this person charge and I want to see
Speaker 2: them through court, and that's fine too. But I'm here
Speaker 2: to tell people that that is again not linear. You'll
Speaker 2: go through stages where I'm done, I want to withdraw
Speaker 2: my complaint, or I haven't heard anything from the cops
Speaker 2: for six months, I'm done. This is ridiculous because it's
Speaker 2: with you every day. Every day, it's with you, and
Speaker 2: it's just it's unresolved. It's sitting there, unresolved, and you
Speaker 2: can try and live with it, but it's just still there.
Speaker 2: So to have that gap, it can be years, because
Speaker 2: that's the tactic. Let's use let's delay the victim out
Speaker 2: of out of this. It's hard, but you know, you've
Speaker 2: you've got to keep coming back to what was your purpose?
Speaker 2: Do you still believe in that? Or are you happy
Speaker 2: that it's changed? Are you happy now that you know what?
Speaker 2: I actually don't think I'm much going through the judicial
Speaker 2: process because it's just too much that's okay too, and
Speaker 2: it might change.
Speaker 1: I think it's important messaging that you put across there
Speaker 1: that that might change what you want, what you're hoping
Speaker 1: to achieve. But you're in control of it. Yeah too,
Speaker 1: because I think the worst thing that can be done
Speaker 1: to it's retraumatizing the person if they lose control because
Speaker 1: the offense, they lost control. And now if they lose control,
Speaker 1: now if they get bullied into making a statement, it's yeah,
Speaker 1: look you've got you've got to let the victim have
Speaker 1: control of the person who was offended against, have control
Speaker 1: of what's happened. The delays in the court matter a look, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's isn't it. Yeah, delays in courts.
Speaker 2: Okay, It's hard to sit here and say something so
Speaker 2: negative against a system you've fought for for so long.
Speaker 2: But yeah, look it's not a great experience, is mine.
Speaker 2: And that's for a number of reasons that, as you're
Speaker 2: rightly say, is out of my control. Yeah, and that's
Speaker 2: been that. It's without trying to put a label on this,
Speaker 2: but I've been revictimized every time. Yeah, so every time
Speaker 2: there's a new trial or a system, you're a hung jury.
Speaker 2: So initially there's a hung jury, there's a new trial,
Speaker 2: there's a delay, and in this particular case, some more
Speaker 2: victims come forward, which is great.
Speaker 1: Explain that to give the listeners, there was a person
Speaker 1: that came forward and made a complaint prior to you.
Speaker 1: You heard about it, you came forward, made a complaint,
Speaker 1: and then there's been how many others are.
Speaker 2: I think in the first break down to two sections.
Speaker 2: I think in the first section there ended up being
Speaker 2: and again I'm not of sin because I have never
Speaker 2: told me so.
Speaker 1: But they keep thinking separate. Yeah, so there's no contamination.
Speaker 2: I don't even know their names, but I think there's
Speaker 2: around seven in that first block, right, that trial around
Speaker 2: a couple of years ago and was a hung jury. Yep,
Speaker 2: so went around again for a trial, so twelve months wait,
Speaker 2: which you're like. And initially then I was separated from
Speaker 2: that first group because I think of the phone call
Speaker 2: that was made.
Speaker 1: Okay, So just to explain that a group of people
Speaker 1: have come come forward, they've all complained about the same person.
Speaker 1: There's been a series of charges. When you say the
Speaker 1: first group seven, they were all people that had made
Speaker 1: complaints against the person of interest, the person who has
Speaker 1: been charged went to trial. Your matter's been separated, so
Speaker 1: your trial is going to run separate to the first trial.
Speaker 2: Correct.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that was a hung jury, which people I
Speaker 1: think listening to the podcast long enough I hung jury
Speaker 1: where you can't get a unanimous decision or a majority
Speaker 1: decision on it. So the option is it's no build,
Speaker 1: you don't proceed with it, or the option is that
Speaker 1: the decisions made to go for a further trial. So
Speaker 1: then it was twelve months waiting. You're at the end
Speaker 1: of the queue at this stage.
Speaker 2: Still at the end of the queue, I believe because
Speaker 2: of this recording, and it was deemed that that recording
Speaker 2: would be prejudicial.
Speaker 1: To the other others, okay, which.
Speaker 2: Still blows my mind. But that was the ruling of
Speaker 2: the court. And so I'm at the end of it all,
Speaker 2: and we're waiting another twelve months because twelve months is
Speaker 2: the next available court date in the system.
Speaker 1: So after the jury, after the decision didn't come back
Speaker 1: twelve months, they waited and there was another trial with
Speaker 1: the seven people, with the seven people who had made
Speaker 1: complaints against the offender or the accused. What happened that
Speaker 1: the court matter there.
Speaker 2: That particular case for those seven. I believe he was
Speaker 2: found guilty of one victim and I hung jury on three,
Speaker 2: so they couldn't reach a verdict, and three not guilty
Speaker 2: didn't get beyond reasonable doubt. So one victim found guilty
Speaker 2: out of seven, which absolutely my hart leeds for all
Speaker 2: of those victims. And I've played all that out of
Speaker 2: my mind as best I can in that you know,
Speaker 2: how do you feel if you're the one that's got
Speaker 2: the guilty and the others don't. But eventually or to
Speaker 2: the point, you know, and I'm just happy guilty of one,
Speaker 2: but I can't, you know, you can't speak for everyone
Speaker 2: in that situation. But that wasn't a good start for
Speaker 2: that group of seven people. And in the twelve months
Speaker 2: they were waiting for that retrial, more victims come forward,
Speaker 2: so I think there was another eight or nine, I'm
Speaker 2: not sure, but they had to run that second group
Speaker 2: of eight of nine in a separate trial altogether.
Speaker 1: The offender pleaded not guilty to the charges.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. I don't think he's maintained not guilty
Speaker 2: the whole way.
Speaker 1: So okay, hung drury first trial, second trial, one guilty,
Speaker 1: three hung three, no decision made for three not guilty
Speaker 1: out of the seven and then an additional eight have come.
Speaker 2: Forward in a separate Is that another trial?
Speaker 1: Another trial?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Is he in custody in there?
Speaker 2: No? I don't know, mate, I've been told no, which
Speaker 2: is a frustration, to say the least. It was obviously
Speaker 2: overwhelmed over the moon that you know, there's now nine
Speaker 2: and I think I asked, you know, is the immediate custody?
Speaker 2: Is he straight in jail? Like? I think the response was,
Speaker 2: I'll have to check. You have to check. This is
Speaker 2: you know. I would have thought that was something you'd
Speaker 2: know straight off the about and this is this is
Speaker 2: not the police, this is a support person. And look,
Speaker 2: she's lovely too, I'll give you a rap. But she's overwhelmed.
Speaker 2: That's a sad thing in itself. So she didn't know
Speaker 2: she had to find out. She has NAIs on bail still.
Speaker 2: And my question was, well, did police or did the
Speaker 2: DPP ask for a media cust ideal? And I can't
Speaker 2: get an answer at this stage. Okay, so that's a
Speaker 2: whole other level of Look, I don't understand. Maybe I'm
Speaker 2: missing something, but you've found guilty of nine child sexual offenses.
Speaker 2: I would have thought you strung.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, as to former cops, we accept the decisions
Speaker 1: of the court, but you're sitting here as a victim,
Speaker 1: and so offer the opinion of victim that this person
Speaker 1: has been charged with multiple offenses, been found guilty of
Speaker 1: nine victims, and still is out on bar. It's not
Speaker 1: a good situation, not a good look.
Speaker 2: And look, there may be a very perfect explanation, but
Speaker 2: I'm just not getting it at the moment, and that
Speaker 2: in itself is causing a lot of distress. You know
Speaker 2: that the lack of information coming my way has been
Speaker 2: quite distressing, to say the least. It's revictimized everything, and
Speaker 2: to the point I actually rang Blake at one point
Speaker 2: and was like, mate, I think I'm done.
Speaker 1: You can So it's even at the point of breaking
Speaker 1: you because from the time you provided the statement to police,
Speaker 1: how long are we talking there? I think at four years,
Speaker 1: four years before before it comes to trial.
Speaker 2: You delays retrials defense with all there's new material, we
Speaker 2: need time to digest that, and that turns out to be,
Speaker 2: you know, another twelve months. So my biggest fear around
Speaker 2: this bit was if this is delayed again for another
Speaker 2: twelve months, I think I'm broken. I think I need
Speaker 2: to look after my own wellbeing. I think I had enough.
Speaker 2: He's been found guilty of hate. But then there's a
Speaker 2: part of it goes, you know what. We're almost there,
Speaker 2: but I just I just cannot even start to think
Speaker 2: what this must be like for victims out there that
Speaker 2: don't understand the system.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's the thing. You do know the system.
Speaker 1: You've been in the in the system, and that's still
Speaker 1: traumatizing you. So at the time we're recording this podcast,
Speaker 1: the trial judge only trial is coming up for you
Speaker 1: very very shortly. Yeah, a couple of weeks, and how
Speaker 1: are you feeling?
Speaker 2: Very anxious? You know, I want to I want to
Speaker 2: tell my story. I didn't think going to court and
Speaker 2: telling it would mean as much to me as what
Speaker 2: it does before. I said, you know, it's okay if
Speaker 2: you change what your tension is, and I did mention
Speaker 2: there's been bad days. I've gone and done. I just
Speaker 2: want to move on. I want to advocate for change.
Speaker 2: I want to help men of my age that have
Speaker 2: been through the same thing. I want to help try
Speaker 2: and change some of the judicial process. I want to
Speaker 2: get on with that part of work in my life.
Speaker 2: I've moved on a much happier in life now, but
Speaker 2: there's still this lingering and it just won't. Like you said,
Speaker 2: I'm not in control of that, and that is taking
Speaker 2: me back to not being in control of what happened.
Speaker 2: So it's really victimizing. What is that saying justice delayed
Speaker 2: is justice denied to night and and that that every
Speaker 2: single day. So leading in now only a couple of
Speaker 2: weeks away. I think there was one comment made as
Speaker 2: you know, we hope we get it on this year,
Speaker 2: and that just rocked me. I was just like, oh
Speaker 2: my god, don't tell me.
Speaker 1: We're going to wait and and your frustration is not
Speaker 1: directed at the individual. It's a system, a system that
Speaker 1: you could get there on the day and there could
Speaker 1: be some obscure reason the trails pulled off again, and
Speaker 1: then the availability of the courts like ye, that'll be
Speaker 1: another another twelve months. That's you sit here.
Speaker 2: Wondering when when am I? And you know, and with
Speaker 2: him now on bail, I don't think they can undo
Speaker 2: that or a sind that decision that that he's been
Speaker 2: found guilty, but he's on bail, so I don't know,
Speaker 2: I don't.
Speaker 1: We don't know the full details, but that is hard
Speaker 1: hard to come again, it's just anecdotically someone's convicted of
Speaker 1: that many offenses generally refused.
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, so yeah, look it's yeah, it's an
Speaker 2: interesting time. And look, I'm anxious for me. I'm anxious
Speaker 2: for my family that now I know my kids, I'm
Speaker 2: a partner and that's going through all this as well.
Speaker 2: It's going to come up and support and I was
Speaker 2: going to do it my own, but now I've lent into
Speaker 2: getting support. You know my brother that I have told her,
Speaker 2: he's he wants to come and help as well. So
Speaker 2: you know, we'll get through it. And to know you're
Speaker 2: not alone is probably the biggest piece out of this.
Speaker 2: But you having to explain to them all these steps
Speaker 2: and processes and delays. I understand what it's like for
Speaker 2: just and every day if I can put it that
Speaker 2: way in every day victim or not an ex cop
Speaker 2: victim that has all these questions and if I'm not
Speaker 2: getting any responses, there any understanding or maybe they just
Speaker 2: assume I or no. But as simple as there's a
Speaker 2: mentioned date, yeah, well I know what date it is
Speaker 2: because it gets put in up here and you know,
Speaker 2: and it goes by, and you thought, I'll I understand
Speaker 2: they're busy and I want to bother them, and they're doing
Speaker 2: a bloody good job getting the head around all these
Speaker 2: victims and the brief, but just a notification that looks
Speaker 2: nothing happened today.
Speaker 1: But it is those little things like a mentioned date.
Speaker 1: Like some people I've had victims, until it's explained to them,
Speaker 1: I think, well, it's all going to be decided on
Speaker 1: the date because it's a mentioned day and mentioned. There's
Speaker 1: just it's in the list in the court and nothing's
Speaker 1: going to happen that day other than a further date
Speaker 1: date set.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And look, I want to I want to highlight
Speaker 2: and make it very clear I'm not only critical of
Speaker 2: the barristers, of the solicitors or the victim witness support
Speaker 2: people or Blake. They've been amazing.
Speaker 1: I think that's important.
Speaker 2: I think my point is is that they're so overwhelmed
Speaker 2: and overworked and underresourced. That's my point, and that's the
Speaker 2: change I want to see. They need more support because
Speaker 2: the retraumatizing and the living and the delays. It needs
Speaker 2: its own court. It needs a specialist sex offense court.
Speaker 2: You shouldn't be thrown in with all the armed robberies
Speaker 2: and all the murders and all the tobacco wars. It
Speaker 2: needs its own court for a number of reasons, to
Speaker 2: stop the delay, and for the courts and judges. I
Speaker 2: know they're doing a lot of work, but to better
Speaker 2: understand the intricacies of sex offense investigations, so the psychology
Speaker 2: of it. Whereas you might get a judge that's very
Speaker 2: specialized in this and that would be best practice, and
Speaker 2: that's what they try to do, but they're overwhelmed and
Speaker 2: they're overworked. The judges are so there's so many pieces
Speaker 2: in this that need fixing and need to be resolved.
Speaker 2: Now there's an expectation I would have thought on most
Speaker 2: people when you go to the police, your matter would
Speaker 2: be resolved in six to twelve months, two years tops
Speaker 2: fours substandard And if you'd asked me four years ago
Speaker 2: you got four years in here, I probably said.
Speaker 1: No, Yeah, it is ridiculous how long it takes to
Speaker 1: get the matter matter through the court. Yeah, Hey guys,
Speaker 1: it's Gary jubilin here. Want they get more out of
Speaker 1: VI catch killers? Then you should head over to our
Speaker 1: new video feed on Spotify where you can watch every
Speaker 1: episode of VI Catch Killers. Just search for I Catch
Speaker 1: Killers video in your Spotify app and start watching today.
Speaker 1: If gain hypothetically, if the judge came back and found
Speaker 1: him not guilty, how would you feel personally?
Speaker 2: That's the system. I know what happened. Yeah, he knows
Speaker 2: what happens. Yeah, but that's the system, isn't it. You've
Speaker 2: got to accept the ruling of the court. I was
Speaker 2: told a long time ago, particularly I think get Thomas side.
Speaker 2: One of my bosses was like, if your job is
Speaker 2: to put the matter before the court, yeah, job done.
Speaker 2: If you're going to get too hung up on sentencing
Speaker 2: or that's not in parody to this, you're going to
Speaker 2: drive yourself nuts. Yeah. So look, just to get it,
Speaker 2: just to get him charged was a win for me
Speaker 2: to get inside the courtrooms. Great. But now that we're
Speaker 2: so close to having so many victims been I guess
Speaker 2: been found guilty of and his regard one more would
Speaker 2: be great because it'd be great for me. I'm not
Speaker 2: going to get hung on it too much. As I said,
Speaker 2: I know what happened, and so to see whether he's
Speaker 2: willing to admit that he recalls it all or not,
Speaker 2: that's a matter for him, but we both know what happened.
Speaker 1: I'm glad that's the approach, and I think it sounds
Speaker 1: like the right approach to take. And you've made him accountable.
Speaker 1: It's yeah, the courts. We've been cops long enough to
Speaker 1: they it can go either way. You just you just
Speaker 1: don't know what's going to happen.
Speaker 2: Happen with the courts and the elephant in the room,
Speaker 2: I guess, And these a conversation I've had with people
Speaker 2: who have come and told me, you know that this
Speaker 2: happened to me, and some people want to confront them,
Speaker 2: and you know, you know, particularly Dad's go I know
Speaker 2: what I'd do if this is happened to me. Look,
Speaker 2: I've just got to deal with that elephant in the
Speaker 2: room that's only going to get yourself and others into trouble.
Speaker 2: I understand where they're coming from. And I've never had
Speaker 2: that inclination to go and hurt him or get revenge
Speaker 2: or anything. I am still who I am. He didn't
Speaker 2: affect the man I grew into. If probably anything, it's
Speaker 2: maybe better. It was a weird thing to say, but
Speaker 2: by going and chasing these people down and trying to
Speaker 2: do your own summary justice is only going to put
Speaker 2: yourself in trouble and that's not the best thing for
Speaker 2: you or your family. And my advice is get some
Speaker 2: proper help, because that's not going to that's not going
Speaker 2: to do it.
Speaker 1: It's not going to fulfill it's not It will damage
Speaker 1: yourself more in some way. I think. So that's that's
Speaker 1: a good message to get out. Graham. You said you
Speaker 1: wouldn't have come forward then if it hadn't been for
Speaker 1: that other victim coming forward. That was sort of a prompt.
Speaker 1: What do you think needs to change to encourage people
Speaker 1: to come forward?
Speaker 2: I think that aspect of knowing that you're going to
Speaker 2: be supported, whether you're doing it alone or whether you're
Speaker 2: doing it with others. That was the trigger for me
Speaker 2: was you know, I need to support this person that's
Speaker 2: had the courage to come forward, and it just felt
Speaker 2: the right time for me. But I think overall, I
Speaker 2: think people just need to feel supported and the system
Speaker 2: needs to be a lot more efficient, that's for sure,
Speaker 2: because it just discourages people from reporting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what would you say, The people that suppress will
Speaker 1: carry suppressed trauma like you have, whether it's PTSD or
Speaker 1: something that's happened to you, like it's happened in the past.
Speaker 1: What's your message there, Like it's been the journey for you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that you can try and suppress and
Speaker 2: bury it as much as you want. And I did
Speaker 2: it really well for a long time.
Speaker 1: I'm laughing, but clearly you did.
Speaker 2: And I come to it it was locked. It was
Speaker 2: I didn't know the code to what unlocked that, but
Speaker 2: I guess the game where you play there is it
Speaker 2: eventually catches up with you, and it did for me.
Speaker 2: It eventually was unlocked. But once it was unlocked, I
Speaker 2: still then chose to try and keep it a secret.
Speaker 2: And I guess that's my point to those that are
Speaker 2: out there that have been living with this for a
Speaker 2: lot longer than I did, that have been living this
Speaker 2: for you know, say I've been living with me since
Speaker 2: I was fourteen, it's nearly forty years. That's a long
Speaker 2: that's a long forty years of having that inside you,
Speaker 2: trying to deal with that and carry that weight and
Speaker 2: eventually catches that with you, and the people listening would
Speaker 2: know that there's either you know, there's either trust issues
Speaker 2: or there's issues within yourself. Whether it's use of drug
Speaker 2: or alcohol or violence or whatever the case may be,
Speaker 2: is that that's not the way to live. I feel
Speaker 2: that since coming out and telling my story to those
Speaker 2: closest to me and not having to carry it on
Speaker 2: my own, as scary as it bloody was, and confronting
Speaker 2: as it was, it's actually been the best thing for
Speaker 2: me because I've been able to those close to me
Speaker 2: want to share that, and it's easier, isn't it. You know,
Speaker 2: if someone had come to me and told me that
Speaker 2: I would support the one hundredercent, I would, And that's
Speaker 2: what I'm asking some people now to come forward. But
Speaker 2: the victim in me was like, oh, I don't want
Speaker 2: to deal with that's still confronting. I'm just happy to
Speaker 2: going on with life. But my life is so much
Speaker 2: better now that I've dealt with that. My close friends
Speaker 2: and found me are on that with me, and it's
Speaker 2: a shared shared trauma, I guess is the way to
Speaker 2: probably get to it.
Speaker 1: It's a good way.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not carrying one hundred percent on my
Speaker 2: own now, and they can't take it all. They might
Speaker 2: be able to just take five percent, or on a
Speaker 2: bad day, partner can take all of it. You know,
Speaker 2: that's a weight on her too, you know, and that's
Speaker 2: that's part of it. So that was a big part
Speaker 2: of that. That reasons in coming forward and telling your stories,
Speaker 2: it's actually made me better. And you know it's going
Speaker 2: to be hard for everyone. Yeah, you know, if you're
Speaker 2: sitting there in an absolute maze and feeling you don't
Speaker 2: know where you are and you're lost or you're doing
Speaker 2: things wrong, well you've you've got to have the courage
Speaker 2: to maybe take that step or make that phone call
Speaker 2: and try and get some help, because there is stuff
Speaker 2: out there needs to be more, but it will be
Speaker 2: for the better.
Speaker 1: And telling people that the people that have supported you
Speaker 1: and the good family, the good friends and all that.
Speaker 1: If you tell someone then they're not supporting you. May
Speaker 1: be that friendship, all that relationships and other's strongly you
Speaker 1: thought that would be, but people close to you and
Speaker 1: I really do believe there's importance in sharing that sharing
Speaker 1: that trauma. Yeah, and you're not burdening people with it.
Speaker 1: You're just saying, hey, I need a hand now, yeah,
Speaker 1: a little bit of help.
Speaker 2: And it's actually the first Some of the feedback I've
Speaker 2: had too is we understand you a bit more now,
Speaker 2: we understand why you are who you are and what
Speaker 2: makes you tick. And I've accepted that that's part of me.
Speaker 2: So that aspect too, was actually made a lot of
Speaker 2: us closer.
Speaker 1: How do you think it changed what you've been through,
Speaker 1: like the trajectory of your life and you know, like
Speaker 1: you must have been competing or gymnastics at the high level.
Speaker 1: Was it a passion that you hadn't then you just
Speaker 1: lost it because of his actions?
Speaker 2: Or yeah, yeah, I definitely lost it because of him. Know,
Speaker 2: I was coaching. It was my first job was to coach,
Speaker 2: so you know, it definitely changed it. It affected those relationships.
Speaker 2: It's some really really good friendships growing up and it's
Speaker 2: affected them. Affected my ability to go back to your hometown.
Speaker 2: I haven't, you know, I don't particularly look back in
Speaker 2: that part of my life with fond memories of course,
Speaker 2: with that associated trauma. So even going home at Christmas
Speaker 2: to visit Mum and dad, you know, going past places
Speaker 2: that you once once it had all unlocked. I didn't
Speaker 2: Mum and Dad saw those last four or five years.
Speaker 2: I wasn't going home. It was too much, too much
Speaker 2: to go. So so look, I think it's changed those
Speaker 2: aspects of it doesn't change me overall. I think it's
Speaker 2: probably made me a lot more emotionally intelligent. You become
Speaker 2: a cop to help protect others, and now I look
Speaker 2: back in hindsight, I think it may be a better cop.
Speaker 2: Just those instincts managing victims and empathy and care, but
Speaker 2: didn't manage my own internal self well, a lot of
Speaker 2: trust issues. You know, I haven't always done the right
Speaker 2: thing with alcohol, drink too much because it was a
Speaker 2: coping mechanism, you know, shut down, just shut down. So
Speaker 2: rather than being vulnerable enough to talk about how it
Speaker 2: is feeling or what emotions where that be policing, tron whatever,
Speaker 2: it was just shut down. But eventually, or to the
Speaker 2: point you through through all the counseling of leaning into
Speaker 2: that and being vulnerable and hence the ted talk, of
Speaker 2: of trying to be that man that the younger version
Speaker 2: of me would look up to.
Speaker 1: Well, I've made notes here of that, and I was
Speaker 1: going to hit you up with that very thing. That
Speaker 1: was your your ted talk and what you just quoted.
Speaker 1: Would the boy I once looked up to look up
Speaker 1: to the man I am today? How would you answer that?
Speaker 2: I mean asked that. Funnily enough, I've asked that. Look,
Speaker 2: it's it's I hope that that well, I know, I
Speaker 2: won't hope that foten year old boy would would trust me,
Speaker 2: the version of me now you trust me, And I'd
Speaker 2: hope that it would be a safe enough place that
Speaker 2: he could come and say what happened and know that
Speaker 2: I protect him, So that that's the biggest one. But
Speaker 2: also I think that that version of me would would
Speaker 2: hopefully look to me as a role model on how
Speaker 2: to how to be better as a person and how
Speaker 2: to conduct yourself through life so that your relationships are better,
Speaker 2: your professional life is better, and to just be a
Speaker 2: good human. So I think that's what the fourty and
Speaker 2: year old me would hopefully lean into. And I don't
Speaker 2: I don't think my life would have been incredibly different
Speaker 2: to what it has been given what happened. I think
Speaker 2: it's probably just forged to more purposeful me, particularly in
Speaker 2: this next phase of my life. And that's how I'm
Speaker 2: looking at it. I've got the pre me and the post,
Speaker 2: and that the post me post post. Understanding what happened
Speaker 2: and dealing with it. That next version of my life
Speaker 2: is look out.
Speaker 1: Well, I've got to got to say this, and you've
Speaker 1: carried a lot of responsibility in your job, like I
Speaker 1: think all the cops that have served and done their
Speaker 1: best to make society a better place, and I know
Speaker 1: the sharp end of policing that you're working at. You're
Speaker 1: looking an advocate for police veterans and looking at that
Speaker 1: side of things again. Contributing your post career has been
Speaker 1: quite amazing. You've was it the logis you went to.
Speaker 2: It's a bit embarrassing there. It's hard to listen to. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: who would have thought, but yeah, went to the logis
Speaker 2: and you can tick that one off.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Not many people when you joined the police think
Speaker 1: they're going to end up at the logis. But you
Speaker 1: went to the logis for your role in the show
Speaker 1: A Hunted where you were using your police police skills.
Speaker 1: And you've now set up a company, Peregrine, for looking
Speaker 1: at AI and the future of criminal investigations. You're complaining
Speaker 1: about your success of your kids sporting abilities. Now you've
Speaker 1: got to travel travel further. I don't know. I'm looking
Speaker 1: at you. You seem like you're pretty content in life now,
Speaker 1: and I think it's good because it was a journey
Speaker 1: that could have headed off in the wrong direction.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it could have. And you look, you're just
Speaker 2: reminded me of that time where it all came out,
Speaker 2: and that time of leaving policing and dealing with all
Speaker 2: of these things at once was a real critical time
Speaker 2: and I could have turned to many different things. And
Speaker 2: I did go into I did shut down, but eventually
Speaker 2: I had some decisions in myself to make and to
Speaker 2: look at, well, what am I going to do here?
Speaker 2: What am I in control of? And that's a hard
Speaker 2: it's a hard bit to understand, but even harder bit
Speaker 2: to an act. So what am I going to do?
Speaker 2: I need to get my ass off the couch and
Speaker 2: I need to stop drinking. I need to open the
Speaker 2: blinds because literally would shut the blinds and shut the
Speaker 2: world off. I need to deal with this because otherwise
Speaker 2: I'm just going to end up that crusty I'd seen
Speaker 2: a detective that was on TV once, So what I'm
Speaker 2: I going to do with my life? So dealt with it?
Speaker 2: And but that's easy said then done, and it still is.
Speaker 2: It's still a struggle. As I said, you know, yesterday
Speaker 2: wasn't a great day, but it's okay to not be okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, full credit to you having the courage to
Speaker 1: talk so openly about what you've been through. And I
Speaker 1: think you are making a difference. And I know because
Speaker 1: I left the cops around the same time you did,
Speaker 1: and I think our careers were fairly similar in the
Speaker 1: way we threw ourselves into policing and it's dis orientating.
Speaker 1: And then you were carrying in addition, you were carrying
Speaker 1: what we've been talking about today. And I look at
Speaker 1: where you're sitting now and what you're doing. You're kicking
Speaker 1: goals left, right and center.
Speaker 2: So congratulations, Thanks, it's all we're going to do. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I really appreciate I really appreciate the Eye Catch Killer's
Speaker 2: team give me the opportunity to talk about this topic
Speaker 2: and putting some light on Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, thanks for trusting us.
Speaker 2: Thanks Jeers.
Speaker 1: I want to thank Graham for his courage in sharing
Speaker 1: his story, which I know is incredibly difficult to relive.
Speaker 1: I commend him for the important work he has done
Speaker 1: not only over his career but now sharing his personal
Speaker 1: story to keep bringing these issues to light. Graham has
Speaker 1: dedicated decades of his life to apporting victims and we
Speaker 1: support him. Now to our listeners, as I mentioned throughout
Speaker 1: this two part series, I need to reiterate that this
Speaker 1: interview was recorded before Graham's case went to trial. Ultimately,
Speaker 1: Graham's case resulted in an acquittal. However, the same individual
Speaker 1: also faced trials over a number of other historical sexual offenses.
Speaker 1: He pleaded not guilty to all charges. He has found
Speaker 1: guilty of sexual offenses relating to four victims. The defendant
Speaker 1: maintains his innocence and has filed a motion to appeal
Speaker 1: those convictions. Finally, as Graham and I had discussed today,
Speaker 1: you do not have to carry these burdens alone. If
Speaker 1: anything we've talked about has raised issues for you, or
Speaker 1: if you or someone you know needs help, please reach
Speaker 1: out to support services like one eight hundred. Respect