Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person has
Speaker 1: never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: In part two of my chat with Kate Derouge, we
Speaker 1: talk about how low her life got, what it was
Speaker 1: like living in a drug den with ten other people,
Speaker 1: being attacked by a former partner in a drug fueled
Speaker 1: rage with a machete, her arrests, and the public humiliation
Speaker 1: that came with that, along with the threat of going
Speaker 1: to jail for a long time now, the light bulb
Speaker 1: moment in Kate's life was when she saw herself in
Speaker 1: the mirror and was disgusted by what she had become.
Speaker 1: How she turned the life around and now as a
Speaker 1: mother of two beautiful children, the message she would be
Speaker 1: giving to them so they can learn from her mistakes.
Speaker 1: It was an emotional but inspiring talk and I came
Speaker 1: away from it with a deeper understanding of how close
Speaker 1: all of us are to destroying our lives with poor choices.
Speaker 1: Have a listen to what Kate said. Kate Derouge, welcome
Speaker 1: back to Part two of I Catch Killers.
Speaker 2: Thank You. It's it was a big first part nearly there.
Speaker 1: It was a big first part where it's sort of
Speaker 1: on a bit of a nosedive at this stage, but
Speaker 1: we're going to bring leave it back and bring you up.
Speaker 1: In part one, we talked about your highs and your lowers,
Speaker 1: your highs with your success from Australian Idol and your
Speaker 1: career in music that you went on too from there,
Speaker 1: But we also talked about starting to use drugs and
Speaker 1: how that got hold of you and then the spiral
Speaker 1: when you started using ice and I think you were
Speaker 1: addicted for seven years on that. I was interested that
Speaker 1: I didn't realize that your parents had pulled you away
Speaker 1: from it when your career crashed and were trying to
Speaker 1: get you on the straight and narrow, and you're obviously
Speaker 1: committed to it. But then you went to Mariuchidor for
Speaker 1: a radio gig for a couple of months, and you
Speaker 1: discovered the life again by the sounds of.
Speaker 2: It, Well, I wouldn't say I discovered the life. I
Speaker 2: was just trying to fool myself, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: I was still hanging onto this concept that I had
Speaker 2: a career left and using something, whether it be drugs
Speaker 2: or alcohol. And look and when I've never really identified
Speaker 2: as an alcoholic, but when I drank, I drank to access,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. I would drink vodka for
Speaker 2: breakfast out of a Gatorade bottle, So you know, I
Speaker 2: didn't do anything in a healthy way. But yeah, I
Speaker 2: think I went to this job in Rucchie do Or
Speaker 2: to try to prove to everybody that I was okay
Speaker 2: and that I could look after myself and that they
Speaker 2: were overreacting, and it just was a disaster.
Speaker 1: There's a quote in again one of the interviews that
Speaker 1: you've done, and I'll just read it out and we'll
Speaker 1: discussed that that around this period as well, and truly
Speaker 1: in the grips of method addictions. So this is when
Speaker 1: you've started using ice. All I wanted was for everyone
Speaker 1: to fuck off out of my face so I could
Speaker 1: use And it hurts my heart to say that I
Speaker 1: lost all hope, want or care to be any version
Speaker 1: of the Kate everybody knew. So this is after maroochi
Speaker 1: d'Or you've lost your way again. And I think you
Speaker 1: said you were traveling with someone and he had a
Speaker 1: ice pipe, and you thought why not.
Speaker 2: Well, it was as simple as you know, and I
Speaker 2: could sniff out drugs from a mile away, and I
Speaker 2: jumped in a car, which is reckless in itself. You know,
Speaker 2: I'm in a town I don't know, and in the
Speaker 2: middle of the night, I jump in a car with
Speaker 2: a person I don't know, madness, and I could tell
Speaker 2: that he was on something, and I just said, I
Speaker 2: don't know what you have, but I didn't care, but
Speaker 2: you need to give me some And that was it,
Speaker 2: and that was I you know again, back to that
Speaker 2: thing of I met this man and he became my world,
Speaker 2: and I think I didn't leave his side for the
Speaker 2: next two three years. We just used and traveled around
Speaker 2: Australia together and it just all seemed honky dory to me.
Speaker 2: But it was the beginning. And as I said, in
Speaker 2: the beginning, like everybody was like, I've seen a bit
Speaker 2: of a changing cake. She's not, I guess because I
Speaker 2: wasn't shit faced drunk, you know, on the floor by
Speaker 2: ten o'clock in the morning. People saw an improvement, you know.
Speaker 2: I was out doing things and being in the world
Speaker 2: and I'd answer the phone and stuff like that. But
Speaker 2: it all really went to hell when I got caught
Speaker 2: using ice and which is where that quote came from,
Speaker 2: when I got driving under the influence.
Speaker 1: Yeah, talk us through, talk us through that.
Speaker 2: So my last ditch effort at regaining some kind of
Speaker 2: career in my deluded state of mind is I tried
Speaker 2: to release a song and I did and it was
Speaker 2: all going really well. And my manager had said to
Speaker 2: me before we took, you know, on that mission, he said,
Speaker 2: I'll do this with you one more time, but do
Speaker 2: not lie to me. I think he used some more
Speaker 2: choice words than that, but he said, do not lie
Speaker 2: to me. No drugs, no, no, blah blah blah. And I said, yeah, no,
Speaker 2: where is good I'm fine, and look, I'd lost an
Speaker 2: incredible amount of weight by They're not gonna lie. I
Speaker 2: looked good, looked good. I was skinny, and I was
Speaker 2: looking the part. And people were like, yes, Kate, you
Speaker 2: look amazing. You know, people will start your back. People
Speaker 2: were starting to take me more seriously, which was just
Speaker 2: fueling my madness. I was like, yeah, this ice thing,
Speaker 2: it's working for me. And I was in the media again,
Speaker 2: you know, I was on the big radio shows again.
Speaker 2: I was doing it, but I was using like a
Speaker 2: mad woman in the background. And you know, my mum
Speaker 2: and I had had driven to Sydney. I was going
Speaker 2: to do a film clip and do all that kind
Speaker 2: of stuff. And I had to drop her off at
Speaker 2: the airport. And it was the day after the Mardi Gras,
Speaker 2: and I was like, oh, after the airport, I'll just
Speaker 2: have a bit of a look at you know, what's
Speaker 2: going on the streets of Sydney. It's always a bit interesting.
Speaker 2: And I come around the bend and there was a
Speaker 2: booze bus and I drove in there. I thought, you, beauty,
Speaker 2: haven't been drinking. This won't be a problem. And it
Speaker 2: was at the beginning of when you know, drug testing,
Speaker 2: and I didn't even think about it, and I passed
Speaker 2: my breath test and I went through. He said, oh,
Speaker 2: if you could just pull in here, you know, we're
Speaker 2: doing random rug drug tests. And my heart sank and
Speaker 2: that was me done, so you know, and I remember
Speaker 2: walking into the big the bus but the second test
Speaker 2: or whatever it was, and this copper looked at me
Speaker 2: and he just said, oh you, he said you. He said,
Speaker 2: I had another one of your kind in here the
Speaker 2: other day. And you know he was really unkind about it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: he was really unkind about it. And yeah that was
Speaker 2: the end. That was the end of the lot.
Speaker 1: Okay. So that that hit the media as it was
Speaker 1: always always going to do, Yes, I would imagine there'd
Speaker 1: be shame and every other emotion that comes from that.
Speaker 1: Talk us through that. What that did to you at
Speaker 1: the time.
Speaker 2: Yes, of course. So the headline came out, you know,
Speaker 2: Kate Deruze choose Ice across everything, and you know, I
Speaker 2: lost whatever slither of respect within the industry and career
Speaker 2: that I thought I had left in that headline, Like
Speaker 2: that was it. I lost everything to get about it,
Speaker 2: and that was it. I And yes, there was a
Speaker 2: lot of shame and a lot of embarrassment and all
Speaker 2: of those feelings. But I masked that with anger and
Speaker 2: it just sent and I didn't know how to process that.
Speaker 2: I didn't know what to do with it. And I
Speaker 2: so instead of going, wow, that's a pretty big rock
Speaker 2: bottom and to the most of the you know, normal people,
Speaker 2: that would have been enough, But that was the ticket.
Speaker 2: I guess that my disease and my addiction needed to
Speaker 2: go right. All think I'm a junkie anyway now, So
Speaker 2: I'm gonna I'm just going to take off here and
Speaker 2: I'm going to show you. I'm going to show you
Speaker 2: what it's really like. And I guess it just gave
Speaker 2: me the permission to use the way that I'd been
Speaker 2: wanting to use for years, which was with no. I
Speaker 2: didn't need to hide it anymore, you know, it was
Speaker 2: just go Yeah.
Speaker 1: I would imagine it would have been a difficult conversation
Speaker 1: that you had with family or and people close to
Speaker 1: you when it became public that you're using ice. And
Speaker 1: just the way you describe that headline so much connotation.
Speaker 1: There's anyone that's touched ice is just a lost cause. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is just a life spirally in out of control.
Speaker 1: It might be painful, but the conversations you had with
Speaker 1: your parents then, Oh.
Speaker 2: Look, my parents knew. I can't remember if they knew
Speaker 2: it was ice, but they knew. They knew I wasn't well.
Speaker 2: I mean, hence why my mom came with me to Sydney.
Speaker 2: And my mom bless her and rest her soul, and
Speaker 2: she I wouldn't be here without her, you know. She
Speaker 2: chased me around this tree, and my siblings chased me
Speaker 2: around this countryside for years trying to save my life.
Speaker 2: And I'd be nowhere if I didn't have them in
Speaker 2: my corner. But they knew I wasn't well. I don't
Speaker 2: think they knew what degree it had got to. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but I wasn't up for conversations by that point, you know,
Speaker 2: I wasn't really I wasn't really invested in talking. I
Speaker 2: didn't want to talk about it. As I said before,
Speaker 2: I didn't want to talk about it. I wasn't interested
Speaker 2: in changing. And I was gone.
Speaker 1: So you went to court. What was the lifestyle you
Speaker 1: were living at that stage? Like, I got the fact
Speaker 1: that you were carving your way back into a career,
Speaker 1: and yeah, writing and doing some things and filming, so
Speaker 1: it was heading in the right direction. That's been taken
Speaker 1: away from you. What sort of life were you living after? That?
Speaker 2: Got pretty bad pretty quick, you know. I went from
Speaker 2: that life or a bit of that life again, to
Speaker 2: living in shooting galleries, and you know, wherever I could
Speaker 2: find a bed, I just would be there. Wherever that
Speaker 2: wherever the drugs were, and wherever they took me and
Speaker 2: my you know, as I said, my consequential thinking was
Speaker 2: gone and I was in I found myself in a
Speaker 2: lot of dangerous places, with a lot of dangerous people,
Speaker 2: doing a lot of dangerous things really really quickly. And
Speaker 2: I think that's what that drug does, quicker than anything else.
Speaker 2: Because it's all good and well. When you've got the
Speaker 2: money and you can afford it, and you know, you
Speaker 2: pay for it, and the dealer will give you the
Speaker 2: it's not a worry. But as soon as and I've
Speaker 2: done there's no drugs I haven't tried, right, there's none.
Speaker 2: I've done them all, But I've never felt the desperation
Speaker 2: and drive to need to continue to use a drug
Speaker 2: like methamphetamines. Never. It just possesses you like nothing I
Speaker 2: could explain to anybody. Once it's in you. Oh and
Speaker 2: and so I very quickly would just do whatever I
Speaker 2: needed to do to get what I needed to get,
Speaker 2: and there were no boundaries to that. Use your mass,
Speaker 2: so use your imagine, yes, to work out what they
Speaker 2: look play.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and look, I've been to the drug dens and
Speaker 1: difference of stuff where a lot of people are using
Speaker 1: or abandoned buildings and all sorts of things. I was
Speaker 1: a hard assed homicide cop and I'd walk into those places.
Speaker 1: I'd be terrified. It was just it was like something
Speaker 1: out of a horror movie some of the places that
Speaker 1: I saw. And you see the people that have been
Speaker 1: using ice, and there was this glazed look. There was
Speaker 1: no soul behind the eyes. It was just an anything
Speaker 1: could happen. So, you know, you're a female, vulnerable female
Speaker 1: in that stage, addicted to it. I can only imagine
Speaker 1: the places that you found you found yourself in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the fear like and I'm a pretty nervous person,
Speaker 2: you know, as the girl that sits here today. But
Speaker 2: I had no fear and I was and my eyes
Speaker 2: were black, you know what I mean. There was no
Speaker 2: there's nothing behind here. And it still hurts me to
Speaker 2: hear you know, it still makes me emotional and makes me,
Speaker 2: you know, in my throat to say those things, because
Speaker 2: that person was was fucked and there's no other word
Speaker 2: for it, and excuse my language, but I was just
Speaker 2: I was gone. And I still sit here today realizing
Speaker 2: how lucky I am to have got out, because not
Speaker 2: many people once they get lost in that world, it's
Speaker 2: not easy to make it back.
Speaker 1: Well, very very few come out, but you're showing that
Speaker 1: it's possible, and I think that that's an important message.
Speaker 1: But also the important message is how low that life
Speaker 1: can can stoop when you're addicted to a drug like ice.
Speaker 2: I think there's no there is no end to the low,
Speaker 2: like there will always be a lower low, and just
Speaker 2: when you think you couldn't possibly do any worse, you will.
Speaker 2: And I think the true rock bottom in that world
Speaker 2: is when you're in a box, and that's where it ends. Sadly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you had a couple of other other things
Speaker 1: that happened you. You got arrested again with a few times,
Speaker 1: same offense and also weapons charges. And again I know
Speaker 1: that lifestyle, there's always knives or things around with people
Speaker 1: that are living or trying to protect their ice or
Speaker 1: get their ice. There's always stuff like that, the chargers.
Speaker 1: What were the circumstances with your arrests there? That was
Speaker 1: that was down in Victoria.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I got banned from a couple of towns
Speaker 2: in Victoria along that post part of my bail conditions.
Speaker 2: Shepherd and Shepanin was the town that changed my life fundamentally.
Speaker 2: I think a lot of stuff happened when I lived there,
Speaker 2: and I you know, that's when domestic violence and all
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff really came into my world.
Speaker 1: Well, I want to talk about you being stabbed with
Speaker 1: a machete, but.
Speaker 2: We'll get Oh yep, now we can get to that.
Speaker 1: We'll get the back. We're just working through the list.
Speaker 1: At this start, I should have laughed.
Speaker 2: It's not funny.
Speaker 1: It's not funny. It's not funny. And I promise, I promise,
Speaker 1: we give you a ladder to crawl your way out
Speaker 1: of here. But okay, we'll talk the next couple of arrests.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I did. I got a rest a few times,
Speaker 2: and look they were always for driving under the influence,
Speaker 2: you know, got lost my license a few times and
Speaker 2: then drove a few times whilst had I didn't have
Speaker 2: my license got caught, the weapons was possibly was getting
Speaker 2: a bit more serious, and you know when I started
Speaker 2: getting correction orders and all that kind of stuff, and
Speaker 2: you know, I'm really lucky. I remember, you know, being
Speaker 2: in the cells and being stripped and all of that
Speaker 2: fun stuff that happens. But yeah, there was I couldn't
Speaker 2: tell you. I can't remember how many there were, but
Speaker 2: there were enough.
Speaker 1: It's daunting, isn't it, Like when you cut your freedom's
Speaker 1: being taken away from you. It's not the world that
Speaker 1: you've grown up to and have an expectation you're going
Speaker 1: to win there. But and you had a threat of
Speaker 1: a fairly lengthy custodial sentence hanging over your head too,
Speaker 1: so that must have been played on your mind.
Speaker 2: I did, and look, I remember, and you know it's
Speaker 2: not funny. Again. I shouldn't laugh, you know, I remember
Speaker 2: because I was hanging around with some pretty big criminals
Speaker 2: by that point, people doing really bad things and her people,
Speaker 2: and like a lot of crime that is so far
Speaker 2: from the world that I grew up in or anything
Speaker 2: that I could relate to, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: And I look at those guys but now and feel
Speaker 2: sad for them. Because at the end of the day,
Speaker 2: they were just really sick people like I was, with
Speaker 2: a hell of a lot less resources and love in
Speaker 2: their life to help them get better. But yeah, like
Speaker 2: I remember everybody, when anybody ever got locked up and
Speaker 2: come out of the cells, it was like, where's your tape?
Speaker 2: Give me your tape, you know, because everyone always thought
Speaker 2: everyone was going to rat on one another and tell
Speaker 2: each other off or whatever. And I remember the first
Speaker 2: time that I got locked up in the cells and
Speaker 2: I had to sit there and the detective and go
Speaker 2: through it all. And they did the tape and I
Speaker 2: just sat and I cried, and I and I you know,
Speaker 2: I was so busy running like this big gangster that
Speaker 2: I thought that I'd become this big, bad ass gangster.
Speaker 2: And I think and I was all and I was
Speaker 2: all back, and I sat in this tape and just
Speaker 2: cried for three hours, you know what I mean, just
Speaker 2: sobbed like a baby and wanted my mum and begged
Speaker 2: them to let me go so I didn't have to
Speaker 2: front cod. I think I said something like, please, you
Speaker 2: can't let me go to court in the morning. It'll
Speaker 2: ruin my career. Like I didn't have a career by
Speaker 2: that point. But you know, I'm still holding on to
Speaker 2: this thing, and I knew that I couldn't really talk
Speaker 2: about anything that I wanted to talk. I remember just
Speaker 2: wanting to tell this detective everything because I was just
Speaker 2: so sad and I just had this moment of vulnerability
Speaker 2: and I couldn't because I knew the people waiting out
Speaker 2: in the front of me would want my tape.
Speaker 1: And yeah, you're vulnerable there, and what we're talking about
Speaker 1: there is someone that gets locked up. Well, the first
Speaker 1: off of that, cops give where did you get your
Speaker 1: drugs from? You give up the dealer and all that,
Speaker 1: and then yeah, you're not hanging around with the nicest
Speaker 1: people at this stage and you start talking and there's consequences.
Speaker 1: So you absolutely delve right into this. It's a bit
Speaker 1: of a different world than the Australian idol, isn't.
Speaker 2: It slightly different ends of the scales. Yeah, and it
Speaker 2: was an eye opener, but again, it just was this
Speaker 2: and I remember thinking a few times like how am I?
Speaker 2: How was this my life? But it was and I
Speaker 2: didn't know how to fix it.
Speaker 1: Did you look at like other people from the people
Speaker 1: you contemporary? So the ones that you were playing music with.
Speaker 1: And yeah, members of young divas when their careers are
Speaker 1: going from strength to strength, did you sometimes sit there
Speaker 1: and go, I used to sing with them in your
Speaker 1: own yeah, in your own mind.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well people, but you know what, people people
Speaker 2: knew that the circles that I was running, and people
Speaker 2: knew who I was. People knew where I came from,
Speaker 2: and they used to some people used to find it
Speaker 2: fascinating and and I wore it as a bit of
Speaker 2: a badge embarrassingly for a little while.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wondered whether that carried anything in that. But yeah,
Speaker 1: you're in all these people with their failed lives, and
Speaker 1: you would have had a story. I used to be something.
Speaker 1: This was who I.
Speaker 2: Still think, and I am somebody in a way, you know.
Speaker 2: But I'm sitting in the same rooms with all of
Speaker 2: these people think and I'm still somebody of some importance,
Speaker 2: and you know, I again, that just is a representation
Speaker 2: of how deluded I was at that time. And I did,
Speaker 2: you know. I would see the girls have their successes
Speaker 2: in the media or something. You'd catch my eye in
Speaker 2: a magazine or on Facebook or whatever it was, and
Speaker 2: it hurt. But I would just bury that in the
Speaker 2: backpack with all the other shit that I was trying
Speaker 2: to avoid.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and for your second door, your further arrests the
Speaker 1: media attention again, and at that point in time, the public,
Speaker 1: I would suggest to just writing your offers are there's
Speaker 1: no hope for this person?
Speaker 2: Nah? She I think I think the last time, I
Speaker 2: think I was looking at fifteen years, which I don't
Speaker 2: think I ever was, but that's what the media said
Speaker 2: I was. That was the headline. My poor grandma, the
Speaker 2: sweetest person you've ever known in your life, rang up
Speaker 2: and said, now, Darling, I'm going to come to court.
Speaker 2: I'm going to put on a nice dress and tell
Speaker 2: them that you're a nice girl. You know. I was
Speaker 2: just I was just really yeah. I was deep in
Speaker 2: it by that point, and I luckily didn't end up
Speaker 2: in jail. I had a very good lawyer, and I
Speaker 2: did my directions and my CCO, my community corrections order,
Speaker 2: and completed that a couple of years later. But it
Speaker 2: wasn't long after that that court case that things changed.
Speaker 1: The situation where you were attacked with a man in
Speaker 1: your life and a drug fueled rage with a machete
Speaker 1: doesn't sound very nice. Are you kind enough to tell
Speaker 1: us what happened there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, I met my Look, I've been addicted to
Speaker 2: all kinds of things, and love is no different. And
Speaker 2: I was a crazy love addict, and you know, I
Speaker 2: would fall in love instantly with the most toxic of humans.
Speaker 2: And you know, I've done that a lot over the years,
Speaker 2: and he was no different. And I met him in
Speaker 2: a really dark moment. And I remember he walked into
Speaker 2: this house I was in. I was really strung out
Speaker 2: and I had no money and no drugs, and he
Speaker 2: walked in and essentially pulled me out of his house
Speaker 2: and we just became joined at the hip then and there,
Speaker 2: and I just thought he was the most amazing thing ever.
Speaker 2: And as those relationships do, and it's very common in
Speaker 2: that that world, like there's so much violence, and that
Speaker 2: relationship became no different. And he was a very violent
Speaker 2: and angry man, and you know that became a part
Speaker 2: of my story. But in the madness of it all,
Speaker 2: you know, domestic violence is very complicated. And I was
Speaker 2: so addicted to him and the way he made me
Speaker 2: feel in so many ways that you know, I stayed
Speaker 2: for a really long time. Yes, he did stab me
Speaker 2: with a machete in my left hip one day. That
Speaker 2: was a time.
Speaker 1: Did you go to the hospital with that or go
Speaker 1: to the police or were the place called?
Speaker 2: Or I had to go to the hospital. And obviously
Speaker 2: on the way too that he drove me to the hospital.
Speaker 2: We had to come up with a story that was
Speaker 2: you know, I.
Speaker 1: Can imagine you two creative genius as a story you
Speaker 1: came up with that would be, I see.
Speaker 2: I fell on a piece of tin on a job site,
Speaker 2: I think was the story. And they knew that that
Speaker 2: wasn't true, and I think they sent him away to
Speaker 2: go take a picture of the piece it in and
Speaker 2: he went and threw away the machete, and you know,
Speaker 2: and that was that was the end of that. And
Speaker 2: they asked me if I needed help, and I said, no,
Speaker 2: what You've been ridiculous and got out the next day
Speaker 2: and carried on.
Speaker 1: Look, you look back at the life, and I know
Speaker 1: we're laughing at certain aspects of it, and I honestly
Speaker 1: think that's some ways you've got to deal with it
Speaker 1: in process that you've got to look at and go
Speaker 1: this was just chaos because you were living and I
Speaker 1: think the low point in your life was living in
Speaker 1: a drug house with ten other people, and I'm imagining
Speaker 1: they're not fine, upstanding citizens. They would have been ten
Speaker 1: other people chasing the hit like you were chasing.
Speaker 2: They certainly weren't the best versions of themselves.
Speaker 1: No, that must have been. Yeah, just chaotic and just yeah.
Speaker 1: I look at places like that and think, how does
Speaker 1: anyone survive in that sort of place?
Speaker 2: Oh, look, it's this. You won't find us out a
Speaker 2: more pathetic space to be. And there's just people that
Speaker 2: are total prisoners to themselves. Yeah, and no, again, as
Speaker 2: I said, and look, those people that I was spending
Speaker 2: in that time again didn't have the love and the
Speaker 2: resources that I had available to me. And I'm eternally
Speaker 2: grateful for that. And I'm not saying that that made it,
Speaker 2: you know, any different for me to get it was
Speaker 2: just as hard for me to get clean. But they
Speaker 2: didn't have a mum necessarily, some did, but not all
Speaker 2: of them didn't necessarily have a mum chasing them around
Speaker 2: the countryside trying to get them help.
Speaker 1: But I think something like that might be the difference
Speaker 1: with you coming out and surviving it with you had
Speaker 1: some people that just didn't give up on you, like
Speaker 1: everyone else has just walked away. But you made a
Speaker 1: point I think in part one about the importance of
Speaker 1: family and old old friends, and they're the ones that
Speaker 1: stick around regardless and always have your back.
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. And when we get to the part
Speaker 2: where things get good and family is a really important conversation.
Speaker 1: Well let's start turning it around. But the last last
Speaker 1: thing and a quote that when you did turn it around,
Speaker 1: you make a point that your family never gave up
Speaker 1: on you, especially your mum. But you've been quoted here.
Speaker 1: I call the glimpse of myself in the mirror, and
Speaker 1: these are your words. I was bone thin, my face
Speaker 1: was messed up, and I was alone, and I looked
Speaker 1: at myself and thought, who are you calling the moment
Speaker 1: of sanity or divine intervention? But I knew if things
Speaker 1: didn't change, I was going to die. Can you talk
Speaker 1: us through that moment?
Speaker 2: So yeah, look, it was rock bottom is an interesting thing,
Speaker 2: and I like, as I said, I've had all the
Speaker 2: external dramatic rock bottoms that you could think of. Like
Speaker 2: by the time I got to the end, I had nothing.
Speaker 2: There was no not a dollar to my name, not
Speaker 2: a nothing, you know what I mean? Like there was
Speaker 2: nothing so and I think quite oftenatics need to get
Speaker 2: to this point. It's not about any of the external stuff.
Speaker 2: It's got to be an internal shift. And I just
Speaker 2: caught myself that day, and I still I'll never know
Speaker 2: what it was that made me see myself different in
Speaker 2: that moment, but I saw it, and I saw it
Speaker 2: for everything that it was, and it was really hard
Speaker 2: and really terrifying, and I did. I knew in that
Speaker 2: moment if I didn't change now, that I was going
Speaker 2: to die, and that there was no other path for me.
Speaker 2: I knew that.
Speaker 1: And your mum from that point in time, you contacted
Speaker 1: your mum and she came and picked you up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I rang Mum. And I'd never and look, I've
Speaker 2: been to in the however, many twelve thirteen years of
Speaker 2: using drugs and alcohol the way that I did, I
Speaker 2: had never gone to rehab because I wanted to. I'd
Speaker 2: been plenty of times. I think I went six or
Speaker 2: seven times. I'd always been for somebody else and to
Speaker 2: save something else or to appease somebody else. But this
Speaker 2: was the first time I called and said, Mum, I
Speaker 2: need you to come and get me like I I'm
Speaker 2: going to die and I need help.
Speaker 1: I think that's an important thing, isn't it that the
Speaker 1: other times you've gone, you're doing it because you've got
Speaker 1: a court matter coming up or someone told you to do.
Speaker 1: This is the light bulb moment where you think, no,
Speaker 1: I'm going to do it because I want to do it,
Speaker 1: and that must make it make a big difference. There
Speaker 1: was another thing, and it was a sad part in
Speaker 1: the article I read that your mums picked you up
Speaker 1: and you've gone back to the place to pick up
Speaker 1: your belongings, but you basically didn't have any belongings because
Speaker 1: you'd hocked everything and whatever you had left there. But
Speaker 1: you had a box containing fan mail there and.
Speaker 2: I've still got I've still got that box.
Speaker 1: That just made it just made me feel sad, Like
Speaker 1: I can just picture it going there and I've got nothing.
Speaker 1: And then there's people that used to look up to you,
Speaker 1: people that respected you, and you know, fan mail there.
Speaker 1: How did that make you feel?
Speaker 2: I mean, it's pretty embarrassing, really, you know. I guess
Speaker 2: it's pretty symbolic of exactly the position I was in,
Speaker 2: Like I was had hopped everything of any value and
Speaker 2: the only things I had left of any importance or
Speaker 2: that I deemed important was letters from strangers that I'd
Speaker 2: never met, and and why I thought they were important
Speaker 2: and why I still had them and why I put
Speaker 2: them in the ca And I've still got that box
Speaker 2: and I'll always always keep that box. And you know
Speaker 2: I have there's pictures and girls have written letters and
Speaker 2: made photo books of all of the places that I've
Speaker 2: been and seen. It was you know, yeah, it was hard.
Speaker 2: It's been that part to let go of that part
Speaker 2: of my life and to put that and to and
Speaker 2: it was a grieving process to grieve that person and
Speaker 2: that the idea of how I thought my life would
Speaker 2: play out took a really long time to put it
Speaker 2: in a place that I'm that I'm peaceful with and
Speaker 2: have a lot of acceptance and I don't live in
Speaker 2: a space of what if anymore.
Speaker 1: You've got through through that, you're back with your mum,
Speaker 1: and you're honesty, and I appreciate your honesty that yeah,
Speaker 1: you're not going to touch drugs again, but you touch
Speaker 1: it one more time.
Speaker 2: I touched it a few more times.
Speaker 1: All the time, sorry said one more time, you were alone.
Speaker 1: I knew more.
Speaker 2: Okay, no, No, it was a few look, I went
Speaker 2: to rehab. Three days later, I did. I went. I
Speaker 2: went back to a rehab that was that I'd been
Speaker 2: to a few years earlier. That I stayed long enough
Speaker 2: to know that there was a way out. But I
Speaker 2: was deep in that relationship. And whilst I stayed in
Speaker 2: that relationship, I was never ever going to get clean.
Speaker 2: But it gave me enough to know that they were
Speaker 2: there when and if the time ever came, and I
Speaker 2: went to their facility, but it wasn't a hospital or
Speaker 2: a lockdown setting. And I knew that I needed to stop,
Speaker 2: but I didn't know it was Having to stop was
Speaker 2: a whole different ballgame. And so you know that powerlessness
Speaker 2: and that drive, and yeah, I just couldn't control myself.
Speaker 2: So at nighttime, this is the truth. So at nighttime,
Speaker 2: when everybody else will go to bed and you could
Speaker 2: walk out the door, I'd be laying in bed, begging
Speaker 2: myself not to go, and I'd get up and I'd
Speaker 2: go and use, and I'd come back and then try
Speaker 2: and pretend that I hadn't used. And it was the
Speaker 2: most painful way to exist in the world. And so
Speaker 2: that went on for a little while, and then eventually
Speaker 2: I got caught doing that, and I went to a
Speaker 2: place called mold And Private Hospital in Melbourne and I
Speaker 2: walked through the doors and I'll never forget this moment.
Speaker 2: The last time I ever used a drug on the
Speaker 2: twenty sixth of March twenty eighteen, and I had this
Speaker 2: really romantic idea of how it was going to end,
Speaker 2: and it was going to be, you know, this way,
Speaker 2: and I had this big I won't use the wording,
Speaker 2: but I had this I had this big bit of
Speaker 2: drugs that I'd saved and I was going to use
Speaker 2: right before I walked in and I used and it
Speaker 2: didn't do anything, and it was the scariest moment of
Speaker 2: my life, you know what I mean. The drugs didn't
Speaker 2: work anymore, and it was I just knew that it
Speaker 2: was time for me to face myself, and so in
Speaker 2: I went. And I spent six weeks in that particular
Speaker 2: facility and it was the most painful, terrifying experience in
Speaker 2: my life. I detoxed from that relationship that I mentioned
Speaker 2: At the same time, it was the last time I
Speaker 2: had any contact with him too, which was equally as painful.
Speaker 2: And that was the beginning of the rest of my life.
Speaker 1: You would have to, I would imagine have to break
Speaker 1: away from him as well, the two of you together
Speaker 1: with one and show weakness and drag the other one down,
Speaker 1: or vice versa. Absolutely the six weeks of detox and
Speaker 1: you said it was the most painful time. Just tell
Speaker 1: the listeners that don't really understand what it involves physically, emotionally,
Speaker 1: everything that had on you that six weeks.
Speaker 2: So the physical part, I guess, you know, And all
Speaker 2: drugs are different, but the physical part with ICE is
Speaker 2: pretty quick. It hurts, like the body hurts and it
Speaker 2: aches and it's tired and all that stuff. But it's
Speaker 2: not like other B toxes. It's the mental game, I
Speaker 2: guess with Ice. And you know, I'd been gathering hate
Speaker 2: and shame and guilt and for myself and Karen, dragging
Speaker 2: that shit around since I was five, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean. And I just I just gathered so much
Speaker 2: of this pain and anxiety and fear and resentment and
Speaker 2: all of this shit that I've been lugging around. And
Speaker 2: I'd been avoiding it, and I had done literally everything
Speaker 2: in my power to avoid it for thirty two years.
Speaker 2: And I got lobbed and all of those things that
Speaker 2: kept me safe from feeling that got stripped off me
Speaker 2: and I got left to sit with myself, no phones,
Speaker 2: no internet, no ringing up somebody to distract it, like,
Speaker 2: I'm just left with myself to sit in it. And
Speaker 2: he was terrifying. And I had to face myself. I
Speaker 2: had to face all of those things that I'd done
Speaker 2: in the using, all the people that i'd hurt, all
Speaker 2: the things that i'd all the people that I'd wronged,
Speaker 2: which was a lot by that point, and that takes
Speaker 2: a lot of making peace with oneself to face that
Speaker 2: and take responsibility for it and not blame anybody else
Speaker 2: anymore and point my finger at the rest of the world.
Speaker 2: And you know, I had to look at myself and go, well,
Speaker 2: this is on u k. Like nobody else can fit.
Speaker 2: Nobody else in this world is going to be able
Speaker 2: to fix this. But you are the only person that
Speaker 2: can process hate, responsibility and move on from this. Your mum,
Speaker 2: your dad, your brother, your sister, God himself can't help
Speaker 2: you here. It's you. And so the first few things
Speaker 2: that really needed to change, and with the ultimate shift
Speaker 2: was I knew that I couldn't trust myself. I was
Speaker 2: not a trustworthy person in my life. Any thinking, any
Speaker 2: thinking that I had come up with wasn't going to
Speaker 2: get me anywhere good, you know what I mean? It
Speaker 2: was only going to lead me back out the doors,
Speaker 2: back into the houses, back into the places that I was.
Speaker 2: And I needed to come to terms with that and
Speaker 2: accept it. So I shut up and I listened to
Speaker 2: what these people in this place said and just didn't
Speaker 2: act on any thought that I had. And that was
Speaker 2: the bigg That was how it started to change, is
Speaker 2: when I went, you know what, I just need to
Speaker 2: listen and trust all these other people that have got
Speaker 2: my best interests at heart, and forget about any ideas
Speaker 2: I think I might have.
Speaker 1: That's a big shift in mine, said, isn't it Just
Speaker 1: You've got to make sure you don't trust yourself. But
Speaker 1: look where you're trusting yourself has taken you.
Speaker 2: Trusting me was a bad plan, and too long a
Speaker 2: time on my own, in my own thoughts, left to
Speaker 2: my own devices was and then stayed that way for
Speaker 2: a few years, you know.
Speaker 1: Ye, Well, yeah, I've spoken to people that have beaten
Speaker 1: an addiction, but they say it's always there. You've got
Speaker 1: to constantly work on yourself and how long? How long
Speaker 1: have you been cleaned for now?
Speaker 2: Coming up?
Speaker 1: As and do you is there practices you have in
Speaker 1: place to make sure that you don't have any setbacks?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Look, look I haven't in a normal day to
Speaker 2: day life, I haven't thought about using drugs or alcohol
Speaker 2: can be challenging at times. Yeah, not that I've thought
Speaker 2: about drinking, but sometimes I get a bit of fomo
Speaker 2: for a second, and then I wake up feeling good
Speaker 2: and everyone else's shit and then I go, yeah, not sad,
Speaker 2: I don't feel like then. But It's been years since
Speaker 2: I've thought about using drugs, you know. But there's certainly
Speaker 2: things that I do in my life to keep myself safe,
Speaker 2: Like I'll share this story, and this is a really
Speaker 2: important story and perspective for maybe anybody who's going junkies
Speaker 2: and junkies your choice. You chose that and all of
Speaker 2: that mentality, which I totally understand and respect, because unless
Speaker 2: you witnessed it or had a loved one go through it,
Speaker 2: or been through it yourself, it's really hard to understand
Speaker 2: why any normal person, when they get in that much
Speaker 2: trouble and pain can't just pull themselves up and change.
Speaker 2: And I get that but there's things I have to
Speaker 2: do to keep myself safe. For example, I had to
Speaker 2: hit replacement a couple of weeks ago, and I knew
Speaker 2: going into that that I would have to take pain
Speaker 2: medication and there would be some things involved in that that,
Speaker 2: you know, steps out of the rules of my normal
Speaker 2: day to day life. And because of previous experiences in
Speaker 2: recovery with taking pain meds, you know, I knew that
Speaker 2: that would turn that part of my brain up. And
Speaker 2: it was as an And it doesn't matter how many
Speaker 2: years or how much talking or how much awareness I
Speaker 2: think I have or how cool I think I am
Speaker 2: around it. If I don't put certain steps in place
Speaker 2: before those drugs hit my system, I'm gone, you know.
Speaker 2: And I experienced that in real time, and it's really
Speaker 2: interesting to be able to watch that part of my
Speaker 2: brain with awareness attached of Like, as I woke up
Speaker 2: from that surgery, before both of my eyes could open,
Speaker 2: I was thinking about how I could manipulate the nurse
Speaker 2: to give me more phentanyl.
Speaker 1: Scary, isn't it.
Speaker 2: That's not choice to me, that's powerlessness. Now on the
Speaker 2: flip side of that, recovery is one hundred percent my choice.
Speaker 2: There is nobody else responsible for me men clean other
Speaker 2: than me, And it's the choices that I make in
Speaker 2: my sane mind today that keep me safe from that
Speaker 2: part of me. So that's kind of how it works.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you mentioned when you're going in the hospital for
Speaker 1: the surgery, you said that you put steps in place.
Speaker 1: What steps did you put in place?
Speaker 2: So the first is everybody who's involved in that surgery
Speaker 2: knows in advance that I'm a recovering addict, like the surgeon,
Speaker 2: the anethetist, my nurses, anybody that's got anything to do
Speaker 2: with it, knows that the likelihood of me drug seeking
Speaker 2: is possible and that I might be asking for drugs
Speaker 2: that I don't need. Okay, So that's the first one, Yeah,
Speaker 2: that normally, And the second one is no, I try
Speaker 2: really hard not to go home with any medication that
Speaker 2: I can misuse and know like just in case prescriptions.
Speaker 2: So I did have to come home with some this time.
Speaker 2: I came home with minimal, though, and I can't be
Speaker 2: in charge of the medication. Somebody that I know, love
Speaker 2: and trust and understand the situation has to be in
Speaker 2: charge of the meds, and I just up my recovery game.
Speaker 2: So I check in with the people that I know
Speaker 2: from NA and the people that understand what can happen,
Speaker 2: you know, my family, checking with my family, anybody who
Speaker 2: sort of knows me and knows how my brain can
Speaker 2: be affected. And it was I'll tell you, like it
Speaker 2: was rough. It was a rough week. I had a
Speaker 2: lot of crazy thoughts and I just was really noticing
Speaker 2: my thinking and my behaviors were just no good. So
Speaker 2: everybody's just a little bit more on guard. But I
Speaker 2: keep talking and I don't pretend that I'm okay. I
Speaker 2: think that's the most important one. I don't try and
Speaker 2: pretend that I got it covered, because I probably don't.
Speaker 2: So I just say, hey, I'm having doesn't mean that
Speaker 2: I'm going to run off tomorrow and buy a bag
Speaker 2: of coke, but like, I'm having a rough week, and
Speaker 2: so just keep an eye on me.
Speaker 1: Okay. That's good advice, speaking advice. If you had children's
Speaker 1: loved ones or someone close to you going through what
Speaker 1: you went through at your worst times, as you're trying
Speaker 1: to come out, as you would diving in deeper, what
Speaker 1: sort of device, what sort of support would you try
Speaker 1: and give that person?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I get I get a lot of families
Speaker 2: contact me on social media asking me how do they
Speaker 2: help their son, brother, mother, whoever it might be. And
Speaker 2: it's such a hard one and I wish I had
Speaker 2: a magical answer for them, but the truth is you
Speaker 2: can't in a way like they'll get they'll offer them
Speaker 2: the help and have the help there, I guess, but
Speaker 2: they'll only change when they're ready to change, or if
Speaker 2: they're ready to change. The best thing that you can
Speaker 2: do for you is get educated. Get educated. Find there's
Speaker 2: a couple of different support groups. Family Drug Support FDS
Speaker 2: is a wonderful community of loved ones that you know,
Speaker 2: alan On is another one. And get educated on addiction
Speaker 2: and get educated on where to find the right help,
Speaker 2: because I think that's one of the most overwhelming things
Speaker 2: for families is when somebody is ready to get clean
Speaker 2: or sober or whatever it might be, they don't know
Speaker 2: where to go. You know, contact me. I'm always happy
Speaker 2: to share. I know some really reputable places in this
Speaker 2: country that I trust and with that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: But get educated, get yourself educated so for the day
Speaker 2: when they do come to you and say I'm ready,
Speaker 2: You're ready, And that's I think one of the biggest
Speaker 2: things and mistakes that families make, and my family did
Speaker 2: for a long time until they got their own help
Speaker 2: and support, which they did. You know, when they went
Speaker 2: and got their own support, was enabling. You know, there's
Speaker 2: a fine line between love and enabling. And it's a
Speaker 2: really tricky one.
Speaker 1: It's a tough one, isn't It really is a tough one.
Speaker 1: But I like that I'll take that away about getting
Speaker 1: educated about it, because at some point in time, if
Speaker 1: you get the opportunity, you know what you're dealing with
Speaker 1: and what the best way of approaching it.
Speaker 2: Is so a great because often often addicts will tell
Speaker 2: you how they think they need to be loved as
Speaker 2: opposed to how they actually need to be loved in
Speaker 2: those times. And if you can, if you can work
Speaker 2: that out, then you two steps ahead.
Speaker 1: And you talk enabling. That's a difficult thing for with
Speaker 1: someone's going through it that you love. I'm there to
Speaker 1: support you. Sometimes it's got to be tough. Love, draw
Speaker 1: a line in the sand, and okay, this is it.
Speaker 2: Tough, tough little boundaries, boundaries, boundaries, and it's so hard
Speaker 2: when and I nearly fell off my chair when my
Speaker 2: mum and dad blessed their hearts. They didn't know any better.
Speaker 2: Enabled the hell out of me for years. And the
Speaker 2: day they turned up with boundaries and awareness and knowledge,
Speaker 2: I was checkmate, you know what I mean? I had,
Speaker 2: I was done.
Speaker 1: That's a good way of putting it. They've checked, madeed you,
Speaker 1: they check how can I maneuver around this? Yeah?
Speaker 2: And I was just like, no, these are the rules,
Speaker 2: these are the boundaries. Will help you with this. You know,
Speaker 2: we're not going to let your start, but I'm not
Speaker 2: going to give you the fifty dollars to go get
Speaker 2: the groceries. I'll turn up your house with fifty dollars
Speaker 2: worth of groceries. And it was just the way they
Speaker 2: shifted it into a way that was helpful as opposed
Speaker 2: to enabling.
Speaker 1: And that's that's good knowledge. So that's a good good information.
Speaker 1: Have you mended your relationships with your family and friends?
Speaker 1: Like you said, there's a lot of people that you
Speaker 1: needed to apologize for all the terrible things that you've done.
Speaker 1: How is your relationship with your family and your close friends,
Speaker 1: your long term friends unbelievable?
Speaker 2: You know, I by the time I got clean, nobody
Speaker 2: really wanted to come near me with a ten foot poll.
Speaker 2: I guess your parents or I'm lucky. My parents, you know,
Speaker 2: always loved me. They were furious. And look, the first
Speaker 2: thing you want to do about a week after getting
Speaker 2: clean is you want to call everybody and apologize and
Speaker 2: say how sorry you are. And you know, I think
Speaker 2: there's normally that natural thing of all. I just wanted
Speaker 2: to I'm like, I'm fine now if everyone could just
Speaker 2: forgive me. But you know, I'd said sorry forty thousand
Speaker 2: times already and it meant nothing. And it really just
Speaker 2: took time. It took time of me showing up and
Speaker 2: doing what I said I was going to do, and
Speaker 2: you know, continuing to do behaviors that slowly but surely
Speaker 2: let them trust me again. And that took time to
Speaker 2: build on that. And you know, I had to remove
Speaker 2: my expectations on them forgiving me and let them forgive
Speaker 2: me and rebuild our relationship in their time. And that's
Speaker 2: another mindset that I think has to happen in in recovery.
Speaker 2: Like they didn't know me and forgiveness, no one did,
Speaker 2: No one owed me anything, And I had to go
Speaker 2: into asking for forgiveness without expectation of forgiveness. You know,
Speaker 2: it had to be about just apologizing because it was
Speaker 2: the right thing to do. But yeah, that took years
Speaker 2: to get to that point. But you know, my sister
Speaker 2: and I I don't know how many times a day
Speaker 2: I talked to it, but we both have little babies
Speaker 2: about the same age, and you know, we're best friends,
Speaker 2: and my brother and I and Sally. I lost my
Speaker 2: mum a couple of years ago, which was pretty rough times,
Speaker 2: you know, But I did that without having to use
Speaker 2: which was pretty remarkable.
Speaker 1: Yea. Yeah, Well, it's those little setbacks that there's always
Speaker 1: that danger period. But it sounds like you've got an
Speaker 1: awareness of what you need to do to protect your
Speaker 1: protect yourself.
Speaker 2: And that's what recovery is. It's about knowing and accepting
Speaker 2: my flaws and where I trip up and not trying
Speaker 2: to pretend that I've got this.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I think that's one of the most dangerous things for
Speaker 2: people who are addicts, is going I've got this, don't
Speaker 2: worry about it, like I don't have this, Like there's
Speaker 2: I'm only a couple of mistakes away from picking up
Speaker 2: a drug and I'll and it's really people find that
Speaker 2: really disheartening. And I don't I just that's just what
Speaker 2: I have to know for myself to keep myself safe.
Speaker 2: And because you know, I know that if I pick
Speaker 2: up a drug tomorrow. You know, I say this all
Speaker 2: the time. I'm a drug addict. I love drugs, and
Speaker 2: I you know, we'll always be more using in me.
Speaker 2: But I don't know if there'd be another recovery. I
Speaker 2: don't know about that.
Speaker 1: It be a long podcast if there was.
Speaker 2: Yeah, God help me.
Speaker 1: I make this observation. I see friends that have had
Speaker 1: problems with alcohol or drugs or whatever, and sometimes I
Speaker 1: get frustrated the people that are close to them. You know,
Speaker 1: the person that's clearly got a drinking problem. Let's say,
Speaker 1: I'll come on, mate, we'll go out for a drink.
Speaker 1: Or they've just got out of prisons, say and come on,
Speaker 1: we'll go for a drink, the very thing that put
Speaker 1: them in prison. Do you have any people from your
Speaker 1: past or the reach out come out we're playing this,
Speaker 1: or have you consciously distanced yourself from that lifestyle so
Speaker 1: the temptations not there.
Speaker 2: So the first thing I did when I went to rehab,
Speaker 2: before I even came out, was controlled. I deleted my life.
Speaker 2: I changed my number, I deleted my I didn't just
Speaker 2: delete all the numbers. I went into my iCloud account
Speaker 2: and deleted my whole life and my past. I knew
Speaker 2: that anybody of any importance that needed to find me
Speaker 2: or wanted to find me would know where to find me,
Speaker 2: and if they didn't, then they didn't need to be
Speaker 2: in my life. And that was I needed that. As
Speaker 2: I said, I couldn't trust myself. So you know, six
Speaker 2: months in, had somebody from the past it oh, let's
Speaker 2: even just catch up. Let's catch up for a coffee,
Speaker 2: I would be, Oh, that sounds like a lovely idea.
Speaker 2: In the next minute, next minute, you know, I'm backing
Speaker 2: Shepherd and doing whatever. So that was one of the
Speaker 2: most important parts of moving forward, was leaving the past behind.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that is a big, big step. Do
Speaker 1: you have any ongoing programs like Narcotics Anonymous or any
Speaker 1: of that you participate in those programs?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? So. Narcotics Anonymous played a massive part in keeping
Speaker 2: me clean, and I think big. I think the other
Speaker 2: part recovery of any sort, whether that be drugs, alcohol,
Speaker 2: mental health, depression, whatever it might be. I think everybody
Speaker 2: needs community, and you know, NA was what worked for me.
Speaker 2: But I just needed to have people that weren't my mum,
Speaker 2: my dad, or my brother or somebody like that that
Speaker 2: felt it was their responsibility to keep me safe. And
Speaker 2: I just it was about having people around me that
Speaker 2: understood the way that my brain worked and why, and
Speaker 2: we could talk about things and with no judgment and
Speaker 2: it was safe. And I'm a massive advocate for any
Speaker 2: of the a's, AA, G, A s, all of the a's,
Speaker 2: because it's just good to have people that understand.
Speaker 1: And could probably not just understand and watch out for
Speaker 1: warning signs if they got your back as well, because
Speaker 1: you're very like if you got any form of addiction,
Speaker 1: you become very cunning in covering things up.
Speaker 2: To it's fool yourself. Well, you know, you can fool yourself.
Speaker 2: You can trick yourself into thinking you're fine and all
Speaker 2: of a sudden you're not. So it's having people that
Speaker 2: do know what to look out for.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: If my friends haven't heard from me, and most of
Speaker 2: the time these days it's because I have two kids
Speaker 2: and I just forget what day it is. But if
Speaker 2: they haven't heard from me in a while, they'll bring
Speaker 2: in and say, hey, what you do what you're doing,
Speaker 2: or they'll know that I'm going in for a hit replacement.
Speaker 2: And nobody else thought of that, that hiccup turning up.
Speaker 2: But you know, they turn up at the hospital and
Speaker 2: they go, how many of those pills you had today?
Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, you've got good people around you. Yeah, you've
Speaker 1: cut your old life off, You've cleaned yourself up, and
Speaker 1: you're no longer the pop star, the musician, you no
Speaker 1: longer the ice addict. You walk out. What do you
Speaker 1: do with your life from there? How did you rebuild everything?
Speaker 1: How did you find purpose? How did you find direction?
Speaker 2: Really slowly? And I believe that's been the key. I
Speaker 2: didn't know who I was Gary, You know, I didn't
Speaker 2: know what I liked. I didn't know how to get
Speaker 2: a job. I didn't know how to pay bills. I
Speaker 2: didn't really know how to do anything. I knew how
Speaker 2: to sing songs, and I knew how to take drugs.
Speaker 2: So I after I left that six week rehab, I
Speaker 2: then went into another program for about eighty months to
Speaker 2: two years, and it was called a sober living house,
Speaker 2: and it was more of a there was freedom involved
Speaker 2: in it, like I could go out the front door.
Speaker 2: It was the place that I mentioned earlier that I'd
Speaker 2: been to. I went back into there, and I really
Speaker 2: slowly but surely learned how to trust myself, how to
Speaker 2: trust my thinking. I didn't have a phone for a
Speaker 2: long time, and then when I did get a phone,
Speaker 2: I got one of those like old burner phones, flip phones,
Speaker 2: without the Internet and without social media. And I just
Speaker 2: slowly added stuff into my life and went out and
Speaker 2: tested it and went, yep, that's I'm okay with that,
Speaker 2: you know. And then I went and got a job,
Speaker 2: like just a job. I went and got my traffic
Speaker 2: traffic control ticket. And you know, for so many years
Speaker 2: I thought self esteem was wrapped up in the way
Speaker 2: that I looked and the clothes that I wore, or
Speaker 2: the cars that I drove, or the money in my bank.
Speaker 2: And you know, I learned that self esteem belongs in
Speaker 2: none of those places. It's all about doing esteemable acts
Speaker 2: and getting a job and turning up on time, clean
Speaker 2: and responsible and doing a job and going home. And
Speaker 2: it was just little not lying to people or turning
Speaker 2: up when I said I was going to turn up.
Speaker 2: All of this, these little one percent has just started
Speaker 2: to rebuild this life, and you know, I worked out
Speaker 2: what my morals and values were, and you know, I
Speaker 2: just slowly built a life and music was certainly not
Speaker 2: a part of that. In my mind, I didn't think
Speaker 2: it would be. I thought that I was done with music.
Speaker 2: And then I realized that I love music and I
Speaker 2: now do music in a way that fills my cup
Speaker 2: as opposed to chasing unicorns as.
Speaker 1: Well, that makes sense, and just getting that being through
Speaker 1: the path that you've been through, and especially the low
Speaker 1: part of your life, how rewarding it is. Just been
Speaker 1: a citizen again.
Speaker 2: And the first day I went to work, you know,
Speaker 2: the first time I got paid, the first after my
Speaker 2: first week of work, and I got up and I
Speaker 2: was going to work, I had my lunch, I turned
Speaker 2: up on time. Made me feel better than anything. It
Speaker 2: just I felt proud to myself and I felt like
Speaker 2: I was a person in the world. And I can't
Speaker 2: that nothing will beat that feeling the first time that
Speaker 2: I was a responsible human in the world. I'll never
Speaker 2: forget how that felt.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and all the pieces start to come together again.
Speaker 1: I've seen people whose lives were off the track and
Speaker 1: they talk about it just feels good just being being
Speaker 1: a normal person. And I'm not chasing whatever I was
Speaker 1: chasing before.
Speaker 2: No, it was a really pivotal moment.
Speaker 1: What about love? Did you find love?
Speaker 2: Love?
Speaker 1: I did?
Speaker 2: I did, and I do. You know, part of my
Speaker 2: recovery was no men or because you know, I sickness
Speaker 2: only attracts sickness. You know, I don't think you can
Speaker 2: find a healthy relationship when you're crazy anyway. So I
Speaker 2: made a rule that I wasn't going to do any
Speaker 2: dating or go near any men for a while. So
Speaker 2: I did just that, and it took me a couple
Speaker 2: of years, and you know, I found a man and
Speaker 2: we've been together nearly, you know, over six years now,
Speaker 2: you know, I mean it's it's very which is great.
Speaker 2: It's very vanilla compared to anything I've ever been. If
Speaker 2: was very calm, it's not toxic, it's not bombs going
Speaker 2: off all through. It's very safe and it's wonderful. And
Speaker 2: from that, you know, I now have two little babies,
Speaker 2: which is something I never thought that i'd ever do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you've got your you've got your hands full
Speaker 1: there and it's nice that you're in the found found
Speaker 1: the right relationship and two kids, looking at the lessons
Speaker 1: that you've learned in life, what messaging or how would
Speaker 1: you try and steer your kids to let's not go
Speaker 1: down the path. Mum went all the dangers of going
Speaker 1: down that path? What what? What are the things that
Speaker 1: you've learned?
Speaker 2: Look? I and and to be honest, having kids, that
Speaker 2: was my one reservation about having kids is like I
Speaker 2: was terrified that they'd have my bug. And someone said
Speaker 2: to me, you can't. You can't live life with that thought.
Speaker 2: And you know, it nearly stopped me. And you know,
Speaker 2: I guess if they ever find themselves down that path,
Speaker 2: and I'll know where to send them. But I also
Speaker 2: know that I can't stop them. But I think I
Speaker 2: think it comes before the problem starts, you know. I
Speaker 2: think it's about teaching them from little ones, you know,
Speaker 2: even now about self worth and not that my parents
Speaker 2: didn't parenting I think looks really different then from what
Speaker 2: it does now. It's a different, different world. And I
Speaker 2: think it's about teaching them that they are enough and
Speaker 2: worth and building trust and knowing that you know, and
Speaker 2: removing shame from our relationship. And again not that my
Speaker 2: parents ever made me feel that way, it was just
Speaker 2: different you know that they can come to me with anything,
Speaker 2: and I think it's I think that's where it all starts,
Speaker 2: is you know, supporting them from when they're little as
Speaker 2: opposed to dealing with the issue if it comes up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, well I'm sure you've got your hands full.
Speaker 1: How old are the kids now?
Speaker 2: I've got a six month old and a two and
Speaker 2: a half year old.
Speaker 1: Did you see you in ten years? Good luck?
Speaker 2: I feel like I need it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, well that's going to keep you occupied. You're
Speaker 1: doing the podcast as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I after it all happened, I guess people
Speaker 2: always wondered. People remained interested in my story, which I
Speaker 2: was always People wanted to know where I went because
Speaker 2: the last thing they saw I was going to jail
Speaker 2: for fifteen years, and then I was gone for a
Speaker 2: long time. So after many years and a few news
Speaker 2: people wanted me to come on and share my story,
Speaker 2: and I said, nah, it doesn't feel right. So I
Speaker 2: went and did a podcast and told the story in
Speaker 2: a lot of depth and a lot of detail, and
Speaker 2: the response from that was really surprising, and so I
Speaker 2: decided to carry on. And so I've got a podcast
Speaker 2: called why Do I Feel this way, and it's just
Speaker 2: sharing stories of people from all different walks of life
Speaker 2: that have faced different types of adversity and found better
Speaker 2: ways to do life than they did yesterday. And it's
Speaker 2: just something I'm really proud.
Speaker 1: Of, so you should be. And I think your story
Speaker 1: that you tell there's so many lessons to be learned
Speaker 1: in that. I think it's interesting, like we understand where
Speaker 1: people's lives are off track right from the start and think, Okay,
Speaker 1: well that's not going to happen to me because I've
Speaker 1: got the support round. But yeah, we make choices in
Speaker 1: life that can point you in the wrong direction. But
Speaker 1: I think the most amazing thing is you said, you
Speaker 1: know people wrape you off when yeah, you've been arrested
Speaker 1: and looking like or possibility of serving fifteen years. I
Speaker 1: remember that when it was hitting the media and I'm
Speaker 1: just probably looking at through it at the time with
Speaker 1: the cops lens think of course, she's fucked like that.
Speaker 1: She's not coming back from that, like you got the
Speaker 1: wake up call for the first arrest and then still
Speaker 1: doing it. But it just shows you can turn your
Speaker 1: life around. I think it's an important message.
Speaker 2: I think it's the most important message is. It doesn't matter.
Speaker 2: And I'm not the worst case going around either. Like
Speaker 2: I've met people in my recovery that have been further
Speaker 2: down the rabbit hole, even if you think there isn't
Speaker 2: further down, there is than I was. And they live
Speaker 2: beautiful lives to say, beautiful, full, rich lives, free from
Speaker 2: all of that chaos. And the message in it for
Speaker 2: me is it a It can happen to anyone like,
Speaker 2: so just don't beat that.
Speaker 1: I think that's an important thing to get across.
Speaker 2: Yeah, anyone can find themselves where I did. You know,
Speaker 2: as I said from the beginning, this shit doesn't discriminate.
Speaker 2: But b it doesn't matter how far down you go,
Speaker 2: as long as you've still got two feet on the ground.
Speaker 2: I promise you can do it. It's not easy. It's
Speaker 2: pretty simple, but it's not easy, but it's it's doable,
Speaker 2: and a life beyond your wildest dreams is waiting for
Speaker 2: you if you if you just take the first step.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you found I get the sense there's a
Speaker 1: peacefulness about you. You look at peace and the way
Speaker 1: you're talking and talking about your life. Now there's something
Speaker 1: cool about that too, isn't there? Like you know you
Speaker 1: sound like you were chasing chaos. But sometimes calmness in life.
Speaker 1: Life is not too bad.
Speaker 2: I love calm, I love quiet. It's you know, I'm
Speaker 2: happy for that. Life is pretty simple for me these days.
Speaker 2: And you know, I have starting to go back to work.
Speaker 2: As I said, I'm doing music and I go I
Speaker 2: like to do, you know, speaking about this stuff where
Speaker 2: I can, because I find that I have, you know,
Speaker 2: a unique position that you know, it was a pretty
Speaker 2: public situation and people, you know, I can use my story.
Speaker 2: It doesn't all have to be for nothing. It could
Speaker 2: be for something, so you know, I do that. But
Speaker 2: for the most part, my life's pretty peaceful. I'm peaceful,
Speaker 2: as you said, and I think, you know, yes, I
Speaker 2: have all the external stuff back in life. I've got
Speaker 2: cars and I don't have to rob people anymore, and
Speaker 2: all that stuff, you know. I you know, I've got
Speaker 2: money in the bank and houses and beautiful children and
Speaker 2: all that stuff. But the biggest gift I got from
Speaker 2: the work that I did is my internal world. I
Speaker 2: don't wake up with that impending doom anymore. I don't
Speaker 2: wake up hating myself. I don't I don't resent everybody
Speaker 2: and have I'm not riddled with anger and all of
Speaker 2: that shit that I carried around for all those years.
Speaker 2: Life is just life, and sometimes it's hard. Life throws
Speaker 2: donuts at you sometimes, but you know, I know that
Speaker 2: all of that shit passes. Nothing's permanent good nor bad.
Speaker 2: And I'll be okay as long as I don't use drink.
Speaker 2: You use drugs and drink alcohol.
Speaker 1: Well, Kate, we'll wrap it up at this point, but
Speaker 1: I just want to thank you for coming on the
Speaker 1: coming on the podcast, sharing a deeply personal story, and yeah,
Speaker 1: the value that people listening to this will get from
Speaker 1: hearing your story, I think it's quite inspirational, and yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it just shows that you can find find your
Speaker 1: way out of the darkest hole you can.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me, and thank you
Speaker 2: for listening.
Speaker 1: Me to listening, or to the audience to listen.
Speaker 2: Or anybody you, anybody listening. I hope it's a lot
Speaker 2: to hear.
Speaker 1: I hope there's more people listening just you and me.
Speaker 1: But even if there's not, I've enjoyed the enjoyed the chat.
Speaker 1: So thanks so much and all the best for the future,
Speaker 1: and good luck with the two kids. They're tough ages,
Speaker 1: Thank you, cheers
Speaker 2: Sent nineteen n