Speaker 1: Apogae Production.
Speaker 2: Hi guys, thank you for tuning into Tennis for Nurses.
Speaker 2: This week's episode around gambling does have some triggering conversations,
Speaker 2: but because there was so much information disseminated by these
Speaker 2: two remarkable women, Kat and Zen, we are going to
Speaker 2: do a Part A and we will then be doing
Speaker 2: a Part B because you need to hear what they
Speaker 2: had to say about gambling and the concerns around gambling
Speaker 2: in Australia. So this week will drop Part A and
Speaker 2: next week will drop Part B. Hi, my name's beck
Speaker 2: Woodbine and welcome to Tenderness for Nurses.
Speaker 1: I'm grateful for the person that I have the opportunity to.
Speaker 3: Be, so I hit it and parked it for Nellie
Speaker 3: four years. We always have free will, we always get
Speaker 3: to choose.
Speaker 1: We are autonomous.
Speaker 2: Hi everyone, thank you for tuning back into Tennis for Nurses.
Speaker 2: I'm actually really excited today to chat with two amazing
Speaker 2: women who are trying to change and bring to light
Speaker 2: the issues around gambling here in Australia. And it's a
Speaker 2: little bit of a forgotten addiction. It doesn't get the
Speaker 2: media attention that say alcohol or drugs do. However, the
Speaker 2: impact in Australia is huge with what gambling does to families,
Speaker 2: to people the community, and I really just wanted to
Speaker 2: touch on this form of addiction, just to bring it
Speaker 2: to light a little bit because there's so many people
Speaker 2: that do have issues in this space and I just
Speaker 2: felt it was important that we talk about it as well.
Speaker 1: So good morning Zen, Good morning Kate. How are you both?
Speaker 1: Very well? Thank you So Zen, We'll start with you. Han.
Speaker 2: Can you give us a little bit of background on you,
Speaker 2: what you do, how you help Turning Point and also
Speaker 2: how you help the people that come to you guys.
Speaker 3: So, I am a social worker. I work as counseling
Speaker 3: role at Turning Point. Turning Point is a Melbourne based
Speaker 3: addiction treatment, research and education service which is founded in
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety four. It's now part of Eastern Health and
Speaker 3: covers quite a broad gamut of treatment modalities and programs
Speaker 3: across Melbourne and the Eastern Suburbs. More particularly, we have
Speaker 3: a variety of different services designed to support individuals who
Speaker 3: are seeking help around gambling harm, including kind of online services, websites,
Speaker 3: web chats and also telephone services as well.
Speaker 2: So your background is social work, Yeah, so you've done
Speaker 2: all your study and what made you decide to segue
Speaker 2: into this space.
Speaker 3: I did my initial placement at Turning Point in twenty twenty.
Speaker 3: I had always been interested in alcohol and drug treatment services,
Speaker 3: as I'd studied it in my undergraduate degree as well,
Speaker 3: and during my placement obviously we'd actually did a lot
Speaker 3: of education around gambling harm and Kate we actually watched
Speaker 3: a talk of yours, which in twenty twenty was empowering
Speaker 3: to hear someone talk about gambling in such an honest
Speaker 3: and raw way and also just really challenging this very
Speaker 3: normalized society. Since twenty twenty, it has become something I'm
Speaker 3: very passionate about, and as far as the work we
Speaker 3: do here, it is something that part of me is like,
Speaker 3: I can never see myself doing anything else because it
Speaker 3: is just a really amazing space to work, and in
Speaker 3: the people we work with us so incredibly strong and
Speaker 3: brings so much to the work we.
Speaker 1: Do doing COVID.
Speaker 2: Then, did you with the huge increase in alcohol consumption
Speaker 2: because of COVID, did you guys find that there was
Speaker 2: also then a spike in gambling.
Speaker 3: There was a very decided spiking gambling, particularly with sports betting. Obviously,
Speaker 3: things like the Pokey's. There was a big drop off
Speaker 3: in people attending venues. It's actually been interesting talking to
Speaker 3: clients since COVID where they've said, oh, twenty twenty twenty
Speaker 3: twenty one, particularly in Melbourne, that was great. I couldn't
Speaker 3: go to the pokies. That was the longest period I
Speaker 3: had when I wasn't playing the pokies, and for a
Speaker 3: lot of people that was actually important for them to
Speaker 3: recognize that they could live without going to the venue.
Speaker 3: On the flip side of that, however, we saw a
Speaker 3: very large uptick in particularly younger men on sports betting apps.
Speaker 3: So it was a bit of a double edged sword
Speaker 3: in terms of the harms both reduction and increase that
Speaker 3: we were seeing across a very broad spectrum of the population.
Speaker 2: Do you find that it's more women that do the
Speaker 2: pokies and more men that do the apps or you
Speaker 2: just find it's the board for both.
Speaker 3: I would definitely say with the apps we do get
Speaker 3: a larger presentation of younger men the pokeys. I think anecdotally,
Speaker 3: depending on who you speak to, we could say that
Speaker 3: we have maybe seventy thirty sixty forty kind of split
Speaker 3: male female. But yeah, I definitely say for a lot
Speaker 3: of the people we speak to when it comes to
Speaker 3: the pokys, I find that a lot of people I
Speaker 3: speak to myself where they are women that kind of
Speaker 3: thirties through to sixties range, particularly women who are winding
Speaker 3: down careers entering retirement. The pokys have become something that
Speaker 3: stands in and fills in that space. There's also a
Speaker 3: very common theme for a lot of people just around
Speaker 3: having a place where they can escape the stresses of
Speaker 3: day to day life, and the pokeys for some people
Speaker 3: do fill that space, and it can be a sort
Speaker 3: of quite a big release from what's going on in
Speaker 3: the data day for busy working parents and things like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So what is the definition of a gambling addiction?
Speaker 3: I mean, there are different ways to define addiction. Generally,
Speaker 3: with gambling addiction, for a lot of people, it is
Speaker 3: when the harm for gambling is starting to impact multiple
Speaker 3: facets of their lives. You know, the most obvious is
Speaker 3: the financial impact, but we can also look at people
Speaker 3: losing relationships, family breakdown. For some people, there can be
Speaker 3: very serious legal and employment consequences. We have clients we've
Speaker 3: worked with who have in some instance has gone to
Speaker 3: the extent where they've stolen money from employers and have
Speaker 3: ended up in prison as a result of that. So
Speaker 3: really it's when the gambling becomes something that is all
Speaker 3: dominating in someone's life, and for a lot of people
Speaker 3: that sneaks up on them and it can feel very sudden.
Speaker 3: There can be that steady progression from going to the
Speaker 3: Pokey's once a month with some friends to it being
Speaker 3: a daily ritual of multiple hours and starting to take
Speaker 3: over for their lives.
Speaker 2: Do they tend to always go to the same outlet
Speaker 2: if it's Pokys?
Speaker 3: It's interesting. I think that does very person to person.
Speaker 3: You will have people where they're very much this is
Speaker 3: my venue, this is where I'm going, this is very
Speaker 3: feel comfortable, I know the stuff, I get a free
Speaker 3: cup of tea, which a lot we can say about
Speaker 3: those kind of things. And then for others they will
Speaker 3: find that they're going to different areas of town. For
Speaker 3: whatever reason. A lot of people may feel quite shameful
Speaker 3: being seen repeatedly in the same venue. For others, they
Speaker 3: may have exclusions in place in one venue and therefore
Speaker 3: they decide to go to a different venue. So it
Speaker 3: does vary, but routine and ritual is important for a
Speaker 3: large number of individuals who speak to so there is
Speaker 3: generally some consistency in where they are going to play
Speaker 3: the pokies.
Speaker 2: Why is it you think we don't hear a lot
Speaker 2: about the gambling harm here in Australia. Is it because
Speaker 2: it's such a culture a thing, you know, like I
Speaker 2: hear about it because of what I do. But it's
Speaker 2: sort of something that's really I don't know, it's not
Speaker 2: really discussed.
Speaker 3: It is such a not funny haha, but kind of
Speaker 3: ironic one that and Kate, I'm sure to degree. It's
Speaker 3: this thing that is so drenched into our society and
Speaker 3: is so heavily normalized, and yet we never want to
Speaker 3: be properly acknowledging it. And I think you know, there
Speaker 3: are so many different reasons for that. I mean, we
Speaker 3: can look at the amount governments receive in money from
Speaker 3: Pokey's and from venues from sports spanning advertising things like that.
Speaker 3: I think we as a society want to see ourselves
Speaker 3: as this fun and jove your sports loving culture, but
Speaker 3: we're not really willing to properly investigate what that means yet,
Speaker 3: particularly when it comes to gambling. I'm in my late twenties.
Speaker 3: I have a lot of male friends and colleagues who
Speaker 3: have over the years said that, but they couldn't imagine
Speaker 3: watching sports without gambling. It's just the reality. This is
Speaker 3: what they do, and it's now a kind of lifeline
Speaker 3: for them in terms of connections to other people. It's
Speaker 3: what they talk about, it's what they do, and the
Speaker 3: idea that you could engage in watching sports or even
Speaker 3: going down to the pub without engaging in some level
Speaker 3: of gambling seems quite foreign. So there's the government levels,
Speaker 3: there's the funding and the funding received from governments around that,
Speaker 3: and then there's also the cultural element of just not
Speaker 3: wanting to unpack something difficult, particularly when it's so normalized.
Speaker 1: It's interesting.
Speaker 2: My daughter does intelligence in America and she works for
Speaker 2: a law firm and as part of her work, people
Speaker 2: approach them to research thing on behalf of someone else,
Speaker 2: and she has recently done some research into and I
Speaker 2: used to think it was just nuts.
Speaker 1: You can go.
Speaker 2: Into a roadhouse get fuel or whatever, and there are
Speaker 2: pokeys in these states. I just assumed that they were
Speaker 2: all connected. But these ones that are in these service
Speaker 2: stations and things like that are actually individually owned made
Speaker 2: by a certain person. The people can watch what's happening
Speaker 2: in all the different service stations where people are punting
Speaker 2: or gambling, and if they win, they hit a jackpot
Speaker 2: or something, they'll shut that machine down so they never
Speaker 2: get the win. Oh wow, but they'll take the money,
Speaker 2: but they never get the win. So there has been
Speaker 2: numerous lawsuits against it. But I just assumed that they're
Speaker 2: all connected, but they're not. So these are individually owned
Speaker 2: poky machines. And like she was saying, they're in areas
Speaker 2: where it's low socio and economic areas. It's people low wages,
Speaker 2: low incomes. They're trying to get a couple of extra
Speaker 2: dollars to feed their family whatever. They hit a jackpop
Speaker 2: and never get paid for it. And she was horrified
Speaker 2: when she was reading what's going on. I mean, I
Speaker 2: can't even comprehend that someone would buy and support that
Speaker 2: as a means of an income. I just it blows
Speaker 2: my mind. But when she was looking into it, she
Speaker 2: just could not comprehend it. Whereas they're all linked, aren't
Speaker 2: they to some degree in each the state?
Speaker 1: Is that correct? Do you know, Kate?
Speaker 4: The individual venues, there's a couple of clubs in Canberra
Speaker 4: that own multiple venues, so all of those might be linked,
Speaker 4: but they're not necessarily all interlinked per state.
Speaker 2: But they're not individually owned. No, these are owned by individuals.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: The US regulations around the poke machines and also things
Speaker 3: like sports betting, it they vary so wildly from our
Speaker 3: own regulations. I think the US only introduced sports betting,
Speaker 3: something which is just such a massive part of our
Speaker 3: culture now relatively recently, and they've already seen massive harms
Speaker 3: as a result of that. But it is fascinating seeing
Speaker 3: how different countries manage the pokies, But I think Australia's
Speaker 3: really beating everyone else on those ones.
Speaker 2: So did we develop was the online gambling platforms?
Speaker 1: Are they Australian developed?
Speaker 3: They're not necessarily Australia developed a lot of the online
Speaker 3: sports betting apps are like British companies, like their British
Speaker 3: book making companies, but the US had heavier legislation around
Speaker 3: them for a more extended period of time. Australia has
Speaker 3: always had legislation or regulation around the sports betting apps,
Speaker 3: but they have been here for longer than they have
Speaker 3: been in the US.
Speaker 2: So how much money does the government make from gambling?
Speaker 4: I think it's around twelve billion issue, it could be more.
Speaker 4: That was maybe two years ago, yeah, a year, yeah,
Speaker 4: and it increases each year.
Speaker 3: The civilian losses per capita are the largest globally, with
Speaker 3: the bigger losers in the world when it comes to gambling,
Speaker 3: and it's tens of billions of dollars a year that
Speaker 3: Australians are losing in gambling. When you think of yeah,
Speaker 3: you think how small we are.
Speaker 2: Billion dollars Australians are losing a year to gambling.
Speaker 4: It jumped from twenty five billion. Oh my, the last project.
Speaker 4: That's how much harm is happening in Australia from gambling products. Hell,
Speaker 4: then does someone I mean, you've got your phone with
Speaker 4: you all the time. You know, it's hard enough when
Speaker 4: people stop drinking to try and avoid going into a
Speaker 4: bottle shop and it being delivered and that sort of thing.
Speaker 4: But you know, like your phone's with you all the time.
Speaker 2: How do you then stop gambling if you have a
Speaker 2: harmful habit when your phone's with you all the time.
Speaker 3: There are some things that are in place now so
Speaker 3: last year betstop, which is the National Self Exclusion Register
Speaker 3: for online gambling and sports batting was introduced. People can
Speaker 3: register themselves for various periods where they'll be excluded from
Speaker 3: all registered sports betting services in Australia. That means the
Speaker 3: services can't be setting them advertising material, it means they
Speaker 3: can't open accounts. That's one thing that's in place. Tab
Speaker 3: has a program called tab Betcare which is a similar thing,
Speaker 3: so people can do that exclusion. For some people, they
Speaker 3: find it useful to put blockers in place as a
Speaker 3: service called gamban, which is a similar thing. People can't
Speaker 3: access gambling sites then through their phone or laptop. In
Speaker 3: saying that, however, these are services people have to engage
Speaker 3: with themselves, so there has to be that internal motivation.
Speaker 3: People have to be at the point where they are
Speaker 3: ready to take that step, and that's not always an
Speaker 3: easy point for people to come to.
Speaker 1: With any addiction.
Speaker 2: It's really hard, whether it's drugs, alcohol, sex, gambling. To
Speaker 2: get to that point takes a lot of work absolutely
Speaker 2: so then when you're doing all you're counseling and talking
Speaker 2: with people that sort of thing and vicarious trauma can
Speaker 2: have a real.
Speaker 1: Impact on a person.
Speaker 2: How does turning point look after you as a social worker,
Speaker 2: and how do you look after you to make sure
Speaker 2: that you can show up every day and be the
Speaker 2: best version of you to help your clients.
Speaker 1: How do you do that well?
Speaker 3: Turning point as an organization within this area i'm in,
Speaker 3: there are things put in place in terms of we
Speaker 3: are forced to take breaks after we speak to people,
Speaker 3: so there are ten minutes after every client contact that
Speaker 3: we have that are built into our systems. But there's
Speaker 3: a lot of flexibility in terms of being able to
Speaker 3: take a step out of the office, go for a walk,
Speaker 3: grab a colleague, debrief with them, grab a supervisor debrief
Speaker 3: with them. It's a very jovial atmosphere. That is we're
Speaker 3: encouraged to engage with everyone and prioritize our well being
Speaker 3: in ourselves. If we're in if we're just exhausted, we
Speaker 3: can't take another call. Okay, put yourself into self care,
Speaker 3: do what you need to do. That's absolutely fine. We're
Speaker 3: not being forced to push through and hit KPIs or objectives,
Speaker 3: which is a really nice balance. And we also have
Speaker 3: a really fantastic team of supervisors, including individual supervisors and
Speaker 3: also group supervision, which is done on a monthly basis.
Speaker 3: We also have team meetings with all of the counselors
Speaker 3: so everyone can share systems, issues that need to be addressed,
Speaker 3: things like that. So it's a really collaborative, supportive space
Speaker 3: for myself personally, I'm a big advocate for people that
Speaker 3: can of getting out of the office and just walking
Speaker 3: around for a while. It's been really useful making sure
Speaker 3: I have things in place that I can do every week,
Speaker 3: So routines around meal prepping, exercisings like that that help
Speaker 3: keep me balanced, ensuring that I'm not overloading my workdays,
Speaker 3: but that i still have fun things to look forward to,
Speaker 3: even if it's grabbing a coffee with a colleague during
Speaker 3: the day, just breaking things up, and also just acknowledging
Speaker 3: that we have sick leave and personally, for a reason,
Speaker 3: take that leaf for yourself, look after yourself, prioritize your
Speaker 3: own well being. I've recently come back from ten days
Speaker 3: off so i could spend time with the family and
Speaker 3: it was a really refreshing thing. Yeah, so those little things, Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's so great to hear that because the work you
Speaker 2: do is so important and we need people like you
Speaker 2: healthy and well so that you can help other people
Speaker 2: in our society. That really do need a hand, then,
Speaker 2: is there, and without breaking any confidentiality or anything like that,
Speaker 2: is there one story that's really stayed with you.
Speaker 3: That's a really good question. I think it's maybe not
Speaker 3: one story, but I think one theme that always stays
Speaker 3: with me that actually I think ties it nicely to
Speaker 3: something I was Kate, I was watching your Rethink Addiction
Speaker 3: talk twenty twenty two when there was something you said
Speaker 3: in that that really links in what was sort of
Speaker 3: this theme, which is when you speak to someone on
Speaker 3: the gambling lines or on the gambling web chats, the
Speaker 3: level of shame that people are experiencing, and that stigma
Speaker 3: can be so overwhelming and so often you'll be speaking
Speaker 3: to people, I think, particularly with some of the blokes,
Speaker 3: we speak to men who would not normally be letting
Speaker 3: themselves cry or feeling emotion to this level and all
Speaker 3: of their barriers are down and there is such a
Speaker 3: level of vulnerability and being able to sit with them
Speaker 3: in that space and hold them and then really emphasizing
Speaker 3: the element of addiction by design, encouraging them to acknowledge
Speaker 3: that this is not a reflection on them. They're not weak,
Speaker 3: there's nothing wrong with them. It's not that they're unable
Speaker 3: to make a change or just unable to stop. It's
Speaker 3: that this is a system which has been designed to
Speaker 3: keep them locked in, and there is a way they
Speaker 3: can break three of this, and there is support for them,
Speaker 3: but really just helping them understand that this is not
Speaker 3: a reflection on them and they are not defined by
Speaker 3: the gambling harm And it is something that always hits
Speaker 3: home with me with the gambling calls and the web chats,
Speaker 3: is just how damaging that stigma and shame is and
Speaker 3: how important it is for us to help people challenge
Speaker 3: that and help them reground themselves and acknowledge that it's
Speaker 3: not them, it's a system and they can move past
Speaker 3: it and they can break out of that system.
Speaker 2: I can firsthand talk about, you know, I had an
Speaker 2: issue with alcohol and the shame I felt around that
Speaker 2: and to this day still feel. You know, I've actually
Speaker 2: literally come from seeing my psychologists to come and talk
Speaker 2: to you guys, because I've recognized it's something I have
Speaker 2: to work through and deal with because at the end
Speaker 2: of the day, it's only society that's putting those boundaries
Speaker 2: on me. I should be feeling really proud, like you
Speaker 2: should Kate that we've worked through things and it'll be
Speaker 2: a work for the rest of our lives.
Speaker 1: I have no doubt. But that's okay.
Speaker 2: That we should be really proud of ourselves for me
Speaker 2: not drinking, Kate not gambling, you know, So instead of
Speaker 2: feeling shame or being shamed, we should be celebrating our successes.
Speaker 2: And I think that's something we need to as Australians
Speaker 2: work on rather than shaming people for because let's face it,
Speaker 2: we're open about it. There's so many people that aren't
Speaker 2: open about it and are living, you know, these lives
Speaker 2: where they're constantly and turmoil. And you know, you and I,
Speaker 2: for whatever reason, have been able to deal with our
Speaker 2: demons and get to the other side. But I think
Speaker 2: we do need to change the dialogue around shame and
Speaker 2: embarrassment because we're all just humans.
Speaker 4: Yeah, especially in the gambling space, shame has been weaponized
Speaker 4: by the industry and that's something I didn't understand when
Speaker 4: I was experiencing it. I was like, why can't I
Speaker 4: do this normally like other people? And just as you're
Speaker 4: saying about alcohol, it's a normalized toxin. You know, gambling
Speaker 4: spaces are toxic environments. And we've convinced ourselves that there's
Speaker 4: something wrong with us if we can't engage in it
Speaker 4: in a healthy way, Like it's just craziness when you
Speaker 4: can peel it back and understand, these are industries that
Speaker 4: have designed products and practices that attract and addict human beings.
Speaker 1: And we weren't built for that. No.
Speaker 2: You know, I noticed the other day that the pub
Speaker 2: where I live opposite us, the gambling rooms are open
Speaker 2: till four am. The rest of the pub shut down,
Speaker 2: but the gambling rooms are open till four am. So
Speaker 2: what does that tell you? It tells you that it's
Speaker 2: okay to gamble. Are we're going to support you in
Speaker 2: your habit?
Speaker 4: No, it tells you that that's their core business. That
Speaker 4: is their core business. The rest of the facade. All
Speaker 4: they care about is exploiting you financially for as long
Speaker 4: as possible.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, you know what. I have never thought
Speaker 2: of it that way, And you're right, Kate. So if
Speaker 2: you're feeling comfortable, do you mind sharing your story?
Speaker 1: Kate? Sure. I grew up in Sydney in the late nineties.
Speaker 4: I turned eighteen and my boyfriend at the time was
Speaker 4: two years older, so he had kind of entrenched gambling
Speaker 4: habits because Sydney was all I knew and I had
Speaker 4: no idea that I was actually growing up in the
Speaker 4: capital of gambling harm in Australia. New South Wales has
Speaker 4: ninety eight thousand poke machines. There's two hundred thousand in
Speaker 4: the whole of Australia and News of Wells has half
Speaker 4: of them. So wow, every single social space I went
Speaker 4: to as a young person had gambling products, so I
Speaker 4: wanted to spend time with him. He sat me down,
Speaker 4: showed me how to use a poke machine and I
Speaker 4: put twenty dollars in and one that first time. And
Speaker 4: that was the worst thing that could have ever happened,
Speaker 4: because that pathway formed in my brain of you do this,
Speaker 4: this equals money. Then the person came and gave me
Speaker 4: this wad of cash while I was still sitting at
Speaker 4: the machine and said things to me like you're really
Speaker 4: good at this. Wow, just that positive reinforcement and making
Speaker 4: me think like I was lucky or I knew what
Speaker 4: I was doing. And very soon it went from being
Speaker 4: with him to me going before work.
Speaker 1: After work in my lunch break.
Speaker 4: My whole pay packet would go on payday sometimes within
Speaker 4: an hour and I'd be still living at home. So
Speaker 4: thankfully I still had food on the table and lights on.
Speaker 4: But looking back, I could have been facing homelessness at
Speaker 4: that point, very very quickly, because it just absolutely captured
Speaker 4: my mind and my body in a way that I
Speaker 4: had not prepared to know how to navigate. I got
Speaker 4: taught about drugs and alcohol and smoking in school. Nobody
Speaker 4: mentioned gambling harm. Those two words actually didn't even exist
Speaker 4: at that time. It was just gamble responsibly, you know.
Speaker 4: So that continued for about a year, and I'm watching
Speaker 4: my friends go on trips and I had no money
Speaker 4: to do that. I was just working week to week
Speaker 4: and borrowing money off my siblings, off my parents to
Speaker 4: try and get by, and slowly but surely.
Speaker 1: Disconnecting with myself.
Speaker 4: And there's no doubt that these machines are built for addiction,
Speaker 4: and they mentally hijack you. But what I didn't understand
Speaker 4: at that time was it also hijacks your sense of hope.
Speaker 1: So all of the hopes.
Speaker 4: And dreams that I once had for my life were
Speaker 4: now no longer in my view, and all I kept
Speaker 4: thinking about was trying to get it back or I
Speaker 4: couldn't even put my finger on what was driving me,
Speaker 4: But it was actually this desire to have never ever
Speaker 4: sat down and ever engaged with the product. I just
Speaker 4: wanted to go back to when my life was normal,
Speaker 4: and that seemed so so far away. How old were
Speaker 4: you then, Kate, I was eighteen nineteen.
Speaker 2: And did family members know something was wrong or you
Speaker 2: kept it like a secret?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 4: They just thought I would have spent my paypacket like
Speaker 4: out socializing with my friends or on cloe or something
Speaker 4: like that.
Speaker 1: There was no visible.
Speaker 4: Indication like there is with drinking or drugs, so nobody
Speaker 4: suspected that it was gambling harm and even if they did,
Speaker 4: they wouldn't have known what to do with that information anyway.
Speaker 4: Then miraculously I met my husband, broke up with my boyfriend,
Speaker 4: moved to Canberra. Thought I'd left all of that in Sydney.
Speaker 4: Eighteen months into our marriage. We were twenty three. At
Speaker 4: the time, I was expecting my second child. We were
Speaker 4: building a home and the mother's group that I was
Speaker 4: a part of was going to like the local child center,
Speaker 4: and then they said, oh, look, we won't be able
Speaker 4: to meet here anymore. You're going to have to find
Speaker 4: somewhere else to meet. One of the women said, how
Speaker 4: about we meet at the club. There's like a playground.
Speaker 4: So we went to this playground and as soon as
Speaker 4: I walked in the venue and I heard the machines
Speaker 4: and felt myself just distracted by that familiar lights and sounds,
Speaker 4: and it just kind of haunted me. I obviously didn't
Speaker 4: use them that day. But one day, when I didn't
Speaker 4: have the children with me, I thought, there's money in
Speaker 4: the account to start building the house.
Speaker 1: Remember that time you won.
Speaker 4: You know, you could just spend a little and win more,
Speaker 4: and did it, you know, And that was it. I
Speaker 4: went through thirty thousand dollars in a month, and that
Speaker 4: was the first time I wanted to take my life, and.
Speaker 1: So it was really hard.
Speaker 4: And at that point I came clean to my husband
Speaker 4: and yeah, had I not been pregnant, I wouldn't be
Speaker 4: talking to you right now. I promise you that. And
Speaker 4: then he said, look, look, it's just money. Don't worry
Speaker 4: about it, like, we'll be fine, And he took my
Speaker 4: cards off me for a week. But we had our
Speaker 4: own business and he needed me to do things, you know.
Speaker 4: I was essentially the financial controller of our family, which
Speaker 4: was just a nightmare to navigate. And anyway, that continued
Speaker 4: then for the next decade of me thinking all right,
Speaker 4: you've got to handle on this, it's fine, and then
Speaker 4: have a massive like binge and go through thousands and thousands,
Speaker 4: and then I had another child and had a like
Speaker 4: a forced period of abstinence, and then find the bills
Speaker 4: pile up.
Speaker 1: The stress it had just kept.
Speaker 4: Cycling me around and around, and because I'd never had
Speaker 4: anyone explain it to me, I kept feeling like it
Speaker 4: was my own personal failing. I just was dealing with
Speaker 4: it all on my own. The first time I RNG
Speaker 4: Lifeline back in two thousand and three, I got told.
Speaker 1: Just don't wear shoes.
Speaker 4: If you don't wear shoes, you won't be able to
Speaker 4: get into a venue, so you won't be able to gamble.
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 4: And I was like, ah, okay, that's really not helpful.
Speaker 4: I said, I just feel like I need a rehab,
Speaker 4: Like if I was addicted to drugs, there would be
Speaker 4: a rehabit I could go to and I could get support.
Speaker 4: This woman said, no, there's no rehabs for gambling, and
Speaker 4: if there was, they'd be for men. So that made
Speaker 4: me feel like I was the only woman experiencing this
Speaker 4: and it was just a nightmare. Then a couple of
Speaker 4: years later, a friend of mine saw me gambling when
Speaker 4: we were out socializing, and she confronted me and she said,
Speaker 4: you know, I know this psychologist.
Speaker 1: You could go see the psychologist friend of oz.
Speaker 4: And I went to see this woman and she just
Speaker 4: charged me two hundred dollar an hour and had absolutely
Speaker 4: no insights into what I was going through.
Speaker 1: It just didn't help.
Speaker 4: So when you put your hand up for help and
Speaker 4: it's not met with compassion, understanding you know the right supports,
Speaker 4: you lose hope. So fast forward to twenty twelve. I
Speaker 4: just been Christmas. Christmas is a very intense period for
Speaker 4: people experiencing gambling, harm and all the guilt and everything
Speaker 4: of wanting to make it all all right for my children.
Speaker 1: I found myself.
Speaker 4: In a venue game and just didn't want to be
Speaker 4: here anymore, didn't know how to come home, didn't know
Speaker 4: who to talk to.
Speaker 1: But I was pregnant with.
Speaker 4: Our sixth child, and that's why I'm still here today.
Speaker 1: She kept me here.
Speaker 4: Because at that point I thought everyone's better off without me.
Speaker 4: But I was so grateful to be having her. Each
Speaker 4: one of my children has been like just the greatest
Speaker 4: blessing in amongst the worst hell imaginable. So my husband
Speaker 4: had called like a thousand times trying to find me,
Speaker 4: and they said, please just come home. I think that
Speaker 4: was the moment that he actually saw how much pain
Speaker 4: and isolation I was in. And that's something that's very
Speaker 4: common amongst loved ones, trying to navigate that dynamic between
Speaker 4: somebody who's experiencing gambling harm and them not knowing how
Speaker 4: to navigate it. And he just finally saw my pain
Speaker 4: clearly and said, please, we'll find someone that can help.
Speaker 4: And the next day he drove me to an amazing
Speaker 4: woman who worked for Mission Australia at the time, and
Speaker 4: for the first time I felt seen and heard and
Speaker 4: not judged by what I'd been through and started to
Speaker 4: just build back pieces of me that had been lost
Speaker 4: when I was eighteen.
Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing that. I know that's tough to do.
Speaker 1: Did you have to learn who you are? Oh? Yes?
Speaker 2: And did that yeah take a lot of work and effort. Yes,
Speaker 2: And I suppose you're still on that journey.
Speaker 4: Hey, I feel like I know myself pretty well now,
Speaker 4: but I remember you know you said this focus is
Speaker 4: on self care. I mean, those two words had never
Speaker 4: entered my vocabulary until she said to me, what do
Speaker 4: you do for self care?
Speaker 1: I was like, what is that? You know?
Speaker 4: My whole identity was just so confused and shattered from
Speaker 4: trying to operate under a label of am I gambling
Speaker 4: at it?
Speaker 1: I didn't want that label.
Speaker 4: I didn't feel like it resonated, but I knew I
Speaker 4: was addicted. But I didn't understand how to wrestle with that.
Speaker 4: And when I started showing up for myself differently and
Speaker 4: looking at all that was at play, it was so
Speaker 4: unreasonable for me to think that I could operate in
Speaker 4: a normal state when I had just been absolutely coated
Speaker 4: in shame for over a decade, never really been comfortable
Speaker 4: with my humanness. You know, I had thought I've wrecked this.
Speaker 4: I'm not perfect, I'm not the perfect mum, I'm not
Speaker 4: the perfect wife. It's all ruined. Why can't I be
Speaker 4: like the other wives and mums that I know? And
Speaker 4: this realization that my children didn't need me to be perfect,
Speaker 4: they needed me to model how to be human.
Speaker 1: They just needed your doll and just grow through the experience.
Speaker 1: You know like that.
Speaker 4: My twelve year old the morning after I almost didn't
Speaker 4: come home, said Mom, like, where were you?
Speaker 1: No one could find you?
Speaker 4: And I thought, shit, I have to tell him now
Speaker 4: that I've been struggling all this time and I had
Speaker 4: hidden it from everyone. And I said, look, mate, I've
Speaker 4: just made so many mistakes.
Speaker 1: I don't know what to do. And he goes, Mum,
Speaker 1: everyone makes mistas and I just thought, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: from the mouth of a baby, of course they do.
Speaker 4: Why did I think that I had disqualified myself from
Speaker 4: being worthy?
Speaker 2: You know, because those machines and the way it rewired
Speaker 2: your brain made you think that you weren't worthy exactly.
Speaker 2: And when I looked at the product and how to
Speaker 2: being designed, I was like, oh my gosh, I used
Speaker 2: it exactly how.
Speaker 4: It was designed to be used. From a user standpoint,
Speaker 4: I am the model client absolutely, and this absolute mind
Speaker 4: f of you know, there's all these people that can
Speaker 4: use it properly and you can't.
Speaker 1: But what a lie? But are people using it properly?
Speaker 1: That's exactly right. That's the industry lie that they spin.
Speaker 4: There's all these people that can do this, and there's
Speaker 4: just these few and.
Speaker 1: They labeled them problem gamblers.
Speaker 4: That terminology weaponized that shame and made it an individual
Speaker 4: problem instead of people having a focus on This is
Speaker 4: a really toxic and predatory industry that is absolutely financially
Speaker 4: devastating this nation at an alarming rate, and we've just
Speaker 4: allowed it to be on every corner.