WEBVTT - Gambling Harm in Australia - Part A 0:00:05.921 --> 0:00:07.281 Apogae Production. 0:00:10.401 --> 0:00:13.201 Hi guys, thank you for tuning into Tennis for Nurses. 0:00:13.681 --> 0:00:18.841 This week's episode around gambling does have some triggering conversations, 0:00:19.121 --> 0:00:22.281 but because there was so much information disseminated by these 0:00:22.281 --> 0:00:25.281 two remarkable women, Kat and Zen, we are going to 0:00:25.281 --> 0:00:27.641 do a Part A and we will then be doing 0:00:27.641 --> 0:00:31.161 a Part B because you need to hear what they 0:00:31.201 --> 0:00:34.240 had to say about gambling and the concerns around gambling 0:00:34.361 --> 0:00:37.441 in Australia. So this week will drop Part A and 0:00:37.561 --> 0:00:41.560 next week will drop Part B. Hi, my name's beck 0:00:41.601 --> 0:00:44.001 Woodbine and welcome to Tenderness for Nurses. 0:00:44.601 --> 0:00:48.681 I'm grateful for the person that I have the opportunity to. 0:00:48.641 --> 0:00:52.440 Be, so I hit it and parked it for Nellie 0:00:52.480 --> 0:00:55.481 four years. We always have free will, we always get 0:00:55.481 --> 0:00:55.921 to choose. 0:00:56.041 --> 0:00:57.681 We are autonomous. 0:00:59.081 --> 0:01:02.521 Hi everyone, thank you for tuning back into Tennis for Nurses. 0:01:03.041 --> 0:01:08.241 I'm actually really excited today to chat with two amazing 0:01:08.281 --> 0:01:13.160 women who are trying to change and bring to light 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:16.881 the issues around gambling here in Australia. And it's a 0:01:16.881 --> 0:01:20.521 little bit of a forgotten addiction. It doesn't get the 0:01:20.681 --> 0:01:25.080 media attention that say alcohol or drugs do. However, the 0:01:25.161 --> 0:01:31.361 impact in Australia is huge with what gambling does to families, 0:01:31.401 --> 0:01:34.481 to people the community, and I really just wanted to 0:01:34.481 --> 0:01:38.721 touch on this form of addiction, just to bring it 0:01:38.761 --> 0:01:41.080 to light a little bit because there's so many people 0:01:41.121 --> 0:01:43.801 that do have issues in this space and I just 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:47.441 felt it was important that we talk about it as well. 0:01:48.001 --> 0:01:51.121 So good morning Zen, Good morning Kate. How are you both? 0:01:51.681 --> 0:01:55.641 Very well? Thank you So Zen, We'll start with you. Han. 0:01:56.721 --> 0:02:00.601 Can you give us a little bit of background on you, 0:02:01.161 --> 0:02:05.321 what you do, how you help Turning Point and also 0:02:05.361 --> 0:02:08.441 how you help the people that come to you guys. 0:02:08.721 --> 0:02:12.601 So, I am a social worker. I work as counseling 0:02:12.721 --> 0:02:18.081 role at Turning Point. Turning Point is a Melbourne based 0:02:18.881 --> 0:02:23.281 addiction treatment, research and education service which is founded in 0:02:23.361 --> 0:02:26.521 nineteen ninety four. It's now part of Eastern Health and 0:02:26.561 --> 0:02:31.720 covers quite a broad gamut of treatment modalities and programs 0:02:31.921 --> 0:02:37.521 across Melbourne and the Eastern Suburbs. More particularly, we have 0:02:37.841 --> 0:02:41.601 a variety of different services designed to support individuals who 0:02:41.721 --> 0:02:46.720 are seeking help around gambling harm, including kind of online services, websites, 0:02:46.761 --> 0:02:49.881 web chats and also telephone services as well. 0:02:50.401 --> 0:02:54.120 So your background is social work, Yeah, so you've done 0:02:54.121 --> 0:02:58.000 all your study and what made you decide to segue 0:02:58.201 --> 0:02:59.481 into this space. 0:03:00.281 --> 0:03:04.961 I did my initial placement at Turning Point in twenty twenty. 0:03:05.601 --> 0:03:10.240 I had always been interested in alcohol and drug treatment services, 0:03:10.561 --> 0:03:13.481 as I'd studied it in my undergraduate degree as well, 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:16.761 and during my placement obviously we'd actually did a lot 0:03:16.761 --> 0:03:19.881 of education around gambling harm and Kate we actually watched 0:03:19.921 --> 0:03:23.240 a talk of yours, which in twenty twenty was empowering 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:27.361 to hear someone talk about gambling in such an honest 0:03:27.481 --> 0:03:31.441 and raw way and also just really challenging this very 0:03:31.481 --> 0:03:34.361 normalized society. Since twenty twenty, it has become something I'm 0:03:34.401 --> 0:03:38.521 very passionate about, and as far as the work we 0:03:38.601 --> 0:03:41.601 do here, it is something that part of me is like, 0:03:41.601 --> 0:03:43.601 I can never see myself doing anything else because it 0:03:43.681 --> 0:03:46.201 is just a really amazing space to work, and in 0:03:46.281 --> 0:03:48.961 the people we work with us so incredibly strong and 0:03:49.521 --> 0:03:52.321 brings so much to the work we. 0:03:52.241 --> 0:03:53.961 Do doing COVID. 0:03:54.081 --> 0:03:58.521 Then, did you with the huge increase in alcohol consumption 0:03:58.601 --> 0:04:02.241 because of COVID, did you guys find that there was 0:04:02.361 --> 0:04:04.881 also then a spike in gambling. 0:04:05.321 --> 0:04:11.481 There was a very decided spiking gambling, particularly with sports betting. Obviously, 0:04:11.521 --> 0:04:14.441 things like the Pokey's. There was a big drop off 0:04:14.561 --> 0:04:18.161 in people attending venues. It's actually been interesting talking to 0:04:18.201 --> 0:04:21.001 clients since COVID where they've said, oh, twenty twenty twenty 0:04:21.041 --> 0:04:23.921 twenty one, particularly in Melbourne, that was great. I couldn't 0:04:23.921 --> 0:04:26.960 go to the pokies. That was the longest period I 0:04:27.001 --> 0:04:29.320 had when I wasn't playing the pokies, and for a 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:32.201 lot of people that was actually important for them to 0:04:32.641 --> 0:04:35.401 recognize that they could live without going to the venue. 0:04:35.761 --> 0:04:37.801 On the flip side of that, however, we saw a 0:04:37.961 --> 0:04:42.921 very large uptick in particularly younger men on sports betting apps. 0:04:43.681 --> 0:04:45.521 So it was a bit of a double edged sword 0:04:45.641 --> 0:04:50.880 in terms of the harms both reduction and increase that 0:04:50.921 --> 0:04:53.760 we were seeing across a very broad spectrum of the population. 0:04:54.921 --> 0:05:00.681 Do you find that it's more women that do the 0:05:00.721 --> 0:05:04.161 pokies and more men that do the apps or you 0:05:04.241 --> 0:05:07.080 just find it's the board for both. 0:05:07.681 --> 0:05:11.721 I would definitely say with the apps we do get 0:05:11.761 --> 0:05:17.041 a larger presentation of younger men the pokeys. I think anecdotally, 0:05:17.201 --> 0:05:19.801 depending on who you speak to, we could say that 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:24.281 we have maybe seventy thirty sixty forty kind of split 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:28.401 male female. But yeah, I definitely say for a lot 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:29.641 of the people we speak to when it comes to 0:05:29.681 --> 0:05:31.921 the pokys, I find that a lot of people I 0:05:31.921 --> 0:05:35.561 speak to myself where they are women that kind of 0:05:35.721 --> 0:05:41.481 thirties through to sixties range, particularly women who are winding 0:05:41.521 --> 0:05:46.481 down careers entering retirement. The pokys have become something that 0:05:46.601 --> 0:05:49.881 stands in and fills in that space. There's also a 0:05:50.001 --> 0:05:52.761 very common theme for a lot of people just around 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:55.921 having a place where they can escape the stresses of 0:05:56.121 --> 0:05:59.121 day to day life, and the pokeys for some people 0:05:59.201 --> 0:06:01.721 do fill that space, and it can be a sort 0:06:01.761 --> 0:06:04.601 of quite a big release from what's going on in 0:06:04.601 --> 0:06:07.601 the data day for busy working parents and things like that. 0:06:07.801 --> 0:06:14.681 Yeah, So what is the definition of a gambling addiction? 0:06:15.201 --> 0:06:18.601 I mean, there are different ways to define addiction. Generally, 0:06:18.761 --> 0:06:21.321 with gambling addiction, for a lot of people, it is 0:06:21.561 --> 0:06:25.921 when the harm for gambling is starting to impact multiple 0:06:25.961 --> 0:06:28.161 facets of their lives. You know, the most obvious is 0:06:28.201 --> 0:06:30.761 the financial impact, but we can also look at people 0:06:31.481 --> 0:06:36.001 losing relationships, family breakdown. For some people, there can be 0:06:36.201 --> 0:06:39.761 very serious legal and employment consequences. We have clients we've 0:06:39.761 --> 0:06:42.481 worked with who have in some instance has gone to 0:06:42.521 --> 0:06:45.440 the extent where they've stolen money from employers and have 0:06:45.601 --> 0:06:47.440 ended up in prison as a result of that. So 0:06:47.561 --> 0:06:52.241 really it's when the gambling becomes something that is all 0:06:52.241 --> 0:06:55.441 dominating in someone's life, and for a lot of people 0:06:55.481 --> 0:06:59.641 that sneaks up on them and it can feel very sudden. 0:07:00.241 --> 0:07:02.321 There can be that steady progression from going to the 0:07:02.361 --> 0:07:05.521 Pokey's once a month with some friends to it being 0:07:05.561 --> 0:07:10.001 a daily ritual of multiple hours and starting to take 0:07:10.001 --> 0:07:10.761 over for their lives. 0:07:11.601 --> 0:07:14.441 Do they tend to always go to the same outlet 0:07:15.401 --> 0:07:16.321 if it's Pokys? 0:07:17.401 --> 0:07:20.121 It's interesting. I think that does very person to person. 0:07:20.201 --> 0:07:23.201 You will have people where they're very much this is 0:07:23.241 --> 0:07:24.881 my venue, this is where I'm going, this is very 0:07:24.921 --> 0:07:26.921 feel comfortable, I know the stuff, I get a free 0:07:26.961 --> 0:07:29.321 cup of tea, which a lot we can say about 0:07:29.361 --> 0:07:31.801 those kind of things. And then for others they will 0:07:31.801 --> 0:07:34.601 find that they're going to different areas of town. For 0:07:34.681 --> 0:07:37.561 whatever reason. A lot of people may feel quite shameful 0:07:37.841 --> 0:07:41.241 being seen repeatedly in the same venue. For others, they 0:07:41.281 --> 0:07:44.921 may have exclusions in place in one venue and therefore 0:07:44.921 --> 0:07:46.841 they decide to go to a different venue. So it 0:07:46.881 --> 0:07:51.121 does vary, but routine and ritual is important for a 0:07:51.201 --> 0:07:53.521 large number of individuals who speak to so there is 0:07:53.681 --> 0:07:57.001 generally some consistency in where they are going to play 0:07:57.001 --> 0:07:57.521 the pokies. 0:07:58.521 --> 0:08:01.041 Why is it you think we don't hear a lot 0:08:01.121 --> 0:08:04.241 about the gambling harm here in Australia. Is it because 0:08:04.281 --> 0:08:08.001 it's such a culture a thing, you know, like I 0:08:08.081 --> 0:08:10.601 hear about it because of what I do. But it's 0:08:10.641 --> 0:08:13.121 sort of something that's really I don't know, it's not 0:08:13.161 --> 0:08:14.081 really discussed. 0:08:15.081 --> 0:08:18.001 It is such a not funny haha, but kind of 0:08:18.081 --> 0:08:20.721 ironic one that and Kate, I'm sure to degree. It's 0:08:20.921 --> 0:08:25.161 this thing that is so drenched into our society and 0:08:25.321 --> 0:08:29.441 is so heavily normalized, and yet we never want to 0:08:29.481 --> 0:08:31.921 be properly acknowledging it. And I think you know, there 0:08:31.961 --> 0:08:35.641 are so many different reasons for that. I mean, we 0:08:35.681 --> 0:08:41.241 can look at the amount governments receive in money from 0:08:41.321 --> 0:08:45.321 Pokey's and from venues from sports spanning advertising things like that. 0:08:45.641 --> 0:08:49.121 I think we as a society want to see ourselves 0:08:49.161 --> 0:08:52.441 as this fun and jove your sports loving culture, but 0:08:52.481 --> 0:08:57.481 we're not really willing to properly investigate what that means yet, 0:08:57.881 --> 0:09:01.041 particularly when it comes to gambling. I'm in my late twenties. 0:09:01.081 --> 0:09:03.441 I have a lot of male friends and colleagues who 0:09:03.521 --> 0:09:06.641 have over the years said that, but they couldn't imagine 0:09:06.681 --> 0:09:10.441 watching sports without gambling. It's just the reality. This is 0:09:10.481 --> 0:09:14.681 what they do, and it's now a kind of lifeline 0:09:14.721 --> 0:09:17.321 for them in terms of connections to other people. It's 0:09:17.401 --> 0:09:19.481 what they talk about, it's what they do, and the 0:09:19.561 --> 0:09:23.241 idea that you could engage in watching sports or even 0:09:23.561 --> 0:09:27.081 going down to the pub without engaging in some level 0:09:27.081 --> 0:09:30.641 of gambling seems quite foreign. So there's the government levels, 0:09:30.681 --> 0:09:33.881 there's the funding and the funding received from governments around that, 0:09:33.921 --> 0:09:36.521 and then there's also the cultural element of just not 0:09:36.561 --> 0:09:39.561 wanting to unpack something difficult, particularly when it's so normalized. 0:09:40.321 --> 0:09:40.961 It's interesting. 0:09:41.041 --> 0:09:44.321 My daughter does intelligence in America and she works for 0:09:44.361 --> 0:09:48.081 a law firm and as part of her work, people 0:09:48.081 --> 0:09:52.841 approach them to research thing on behalf of someone else, 0:09:53.641 --> 0:09:58.321 and she has recently done some research into and I 0:09:58.441 --> 0:10:00.081 used to think it was just nuts. 0:10:00.121 --> 0:10:00.601 You can go. 0:10:00.601 --> 0:10:04.281 Into a roadhouse get fuel or whatever, and there are 0:10:04.281 --> 0:10:08.401 pokeys in these states. I just assumed that they were 0:10:08.441 --> 0:10:13.801 all connected. But these ones that are in these service 0:10:13.841 --> 0:10:17.241 stations and things like that are actually individually owned made 0:10:17.321 --> 0:10:20.841 by a certain person. The people can watch what's happening 0:10:21.001 --> 0:10:24.441 in all the different service stations where people are punting 0:10:24.601 --> 0:10:28.481 or gambling, and if they win, they hit a jackpot 0:10:28.521 --> 0:10:31.601 or something, they'll shut that machine down so they never 0:10:31.641 --> 0:10:34.681 get the win. Oh wow, but they'll take the money, 0:10:35.241 --> 0:10:36.921 but they never get the win. So there has been 0:10:37.001 --> 0:10:42.001 numerous lawsuits against it. But I just assumed that they're 0:10:42.041 --> 0:10:46.801 all connected, but they're not. So these are individually owned 0:10:47.241 --> 0:10:51.361 poky machines. And like she was saying, they're in areas 0:10:51.441 --> 0:10:56.281 where it's low socio and economic areas. It's people low wages, 0:10:56.361 --> 0:10:58.761 low incomes. They're trying to get a couple of extra 0:10:58.801 --> 0:11:01.881 dollars to feed their family whatever. They hit a jackpop 0:11:02.041 --> 0:11:06.280 and never get paid for it. And she was horrified 0:11:06.401 --> 0:11:09.521 when she was reading what's going on. I mean, I 0:11:09.561 --> 0:11:12.721 can't even comprehend that someone would buy and support that 0:11:12.761 --> 0:11:15.001 as a means of an income. I just it blows 0:11:15.041 --> 0:11:18.041 my mind. But when she was looking into it, she 0:11:18.281 --> 0:11:22.681 just could not comprehend it. Whereas they're all linked, aren't 0:11:22.681 --> 0:11:24.801 they to some degree in each the state? 0:11:25.641 --> 0:11:27.281 Is that correct? Do you know, Kate? 0:11:27.721 --> 0:11:32.321 The individual venues, there's a couple of clubs in Canberra 0:11:32.401 --> 0:11:36.241 that own multiple venues, so all of those might be linked, 0:11:36.561 --> 0:11:40.281 but they're not necessarily all interlinked per state. 0:11:40.601 --> 0:11:45.761 But they're not individually owned. No, these are owned by individuals. 0:11:46.361 --> 0:11:46.601 Yeah. 0:11:46.721 --> 0:11:50.961 The US regulations around the poke machines and also things 0:11:51.001 --> 0:11:54.081 like sports betting, it they vary so wildly from our 0:11:54.161 --> 0:11:57.761 own regulations. I think the US only introduced sports betting, 0:11:58.241 --> 0:12:00.201 something which is just such a massive part of our 0:12:00.241 --> 0:12:04.121 culture now relatively recently, and they've already seen massive harms 0:12:04.121 --> 0:12:06.841 as a result of that. But it is fascinating seeing 0:12:06.841 --> 0:12:11.121 how different countries manage the pokies, But I think Australia's 0:12:11.161 --> 0:12:13.761 really beating everyone else on those ones. 0:12:14.201 --> 0:12:18.161 So did we develop was the online gambling platforms? 0:12:18.361 --> 0:12:19.721 Are they Australian developed? 0:12:20.601 --> 0:12:23.441 They're not necessarily Australia developed a lot of the online 0:12:23.441 --> 0:12:26.801 sports betting apps are like British companies, like their British 0:12:26.801 --> 0:12:30.681 book making companies, but the US had heavier legislation around 0:12:30.721 --> 0:12:33.241 them for a more extended period of time. Australia has 0:12:34.001 --> 0:12:38.281 always had legislation or regulation around the sports betting apps, 0:12:38.281 --> 0:12:40.281 but they have been here for longer than they have 0:12:40.361 --> 0:12:41.121 been in the US. 0:12:41.881 --> 0:12:45.881 So how much money does the government make from gambling? 0:12:47.001 --> 0:12:51.841 I think it's around twelve billion issue, it could be more. 0:12:51.961 --> 0:12:57.041 That was maybe two years ago, yeah, a year, yeah, 0:12:57.161 --> 0:12:58.841 and it increases each year. 0:12:59.921 --> 0:13:04.601 The civilian losses per capita are the largest globally, with 0:13:04.641 --> 0:13:07.081 the bigger losers in the world when it comes to gambling, 0:13:07.441 --> 0:13:10.481 and it's tens of billions of dollars a year that 0:13:10.521 --> 0:13:13.881 Australians are losing in gambling. When you think of yeah, 0:13:14.201 --> 0:13:15.521 you think how small we are. 0:13:15.881 --> 0:13:20.241 Billion dollars Australians are losing a year to gambling. 0:13:20.881 --> 0:13:25.561 It jumped from twenty five billion. Oh my, the last project. 0:13:26.001 --> 0:13:31.561 That's how much harm is happening in Australia from gambling products. Hell, 0:13:31.761 --> 0:13:34.841 then does someone I mean, you've got your phone with 0:13:34.921 --> 0:13:36.961 you all the time. You know, it's hard enough when 0:13:36.961 --> 0:13:39.761 people stop drinking to try and avoid going into a 0:13:39.841 --> 0:13:43.401 bottle shop and it being delivered and that sort of thing. 0:13:43.441 --> 0:13:45.961 But you know, like your phone's with you all the time. 0:13:46.121 --> 0:13:49.601 How do you then stop gambling if you have a 0:13:49.681 --> 0:13:52.921 harmful habit when your phone's with you all the time. 0:13:53.601 --> 0:13:56.121 There are some things that are in place now so 0:13:56.281 --> 0:13:59.361 last year betstop, which is the National Self Exclusion Register 0:13:59.441 --> 0:14:03.401 for online gambling and sports batting was introduced. People can 0:14:03.681 --> 0:14:08.561 register themselves for various periods where they'll be excluded from 0:14:08.721 --> 0:14:13.481 all registered sports betting services in Australia. That means the 0:14:13.521 --> 0:14:16.161 services can't be setting them advertising material, it means they 0:14:16.201 --> 0:14:20.201 can't open accounts. That's one thing that's in place. Tab 0:14:20.361 --> 0:14:23.121 has a program called tab Betcare which is a similar thing, 0:14:23.241 --> 0:14:26.841 so people can do that exclusion. For some people, they 0:14:26.881 --> 0:14:30.201 find it useful to put blockers in place as a 0:14:30.201 --> 0:14:33.401 service called gamban, which is a similar thing. People can't 0:14:33.641 --> 0:14:37.001 access gambling sites then through their phone or laptop. In 0:14:37.121 --> 0:14:40.681 saying that, however, these are services people have to engage 0:14:40.681 --> 0:14:43.481 with themselves, so there has to be that internal motivation. 0:14:43.681 --> 0:14:46.561 People have to be at the point where they are 0:14:46.641 --> 0:14:49.161 ready to take that step, and that's not always an 0:14:49.161 --> 0:14:50.721 easy point for people to come to. 0:14:51.401 --> 0:14:52.321 With any addiction. 0:14:52.601 --> 0:14:57.081 It's really hard, whether it's drugs, alcohol, sex, gambling. To 0:14:57.121 --> 0:15:01.121 get to that point takes a lot of work absolutely 0:15:01.921 --> 0:15:05.841 so then when you're doing all you're counseling and talking 0:15:05.881 --> 0:15:09.601 with people that sort of thing and vicarious trauma can 0:15:09.641 --> 0:15:10.361 have a real. 0:15:10.201 --> 0:15:12.201 Impact on a person. 0:15:12.841 --> 0:15:17.321 How does turning point look after you as a social worker, 0:15:17.841 --> 0:15:20.241 and how do you look after you to make sure 0:15:20.361 --> 0:15:23.361 that you can show up every day and be the 0:15:23.361 --> 0:15:26.041 best version of you to help your clients. 0:15:26.481 --> 0:15:27.921 How do you do that well? 0:15:28.001 --> 0:15:31.841 Turning point as an organization within this area i'm in, 0:15:32.161 --> 0:15:35.121 there are things put in place in terms of we 0:15:35.161 --> 0:15:38.081 are forced to take breaks after we speak to people, 0:15:38.241 --> 0:15:41.521 so there are ten minutes after every client contact that 0:15:41.561 --> 0:15:43.961 we have that are built into our systems. But there's 0:15:44.001 --> 0:15:46.321 a lot of flexibility in terms of being able to 0:15:46.481 --> 0:15:48.561 take a step out of the office, go for a walk, 0:15:49.121 --> 0:15:52.801 grab a colleague, debrief with them, grab a supervisor debrief 0:15:52.841 --> 0:15:57.601 with them. It's a very jovial atmosphere. That is we're 0:15:57.681 --> 0:16:03.521 encouraged to engage with everyone and prioritize our well being 0:16:03.521 --> 0:16:06.081 in ourselves. If we're in if we're just exhausted, we 0:16:06.121 --> 0:16:08.561 can't take another call. Okay, put yourself into self care, 0:16:08.721 --> 0:16:11.521 do what you need to do. That's absolutely fine. We're 0:16:11.561 --> 0:16:16.321 not being forced to push through and hit KPIs or objectives, 0:16:16.321 --> 0:16:19.841 which is a really nice balance. And we also have 0:16:20.041 --> 0:16:24.801 a really fantastic team of supervisors, including individual supervisors and 0:16:24.881 --> 0:16:28.121 also group supervision, which is done on a monthly basis. 0:16:28.681 --> 0:16:31.481 We also have team meetings with all of the counselors 0:16:31.481 --> 0:16:34.561 so everyone can share systems, issues that need to be addressed, 0:16:34.601 --> 0:16:37.881 things like that. So it's a really collaborative, supportive space 0:16:38.601 --> 0:16:41.361 for myself personally, I'm a big advocate for people that 0:16:41.401 --> 0:16:43.321 can of getting out of the office and just walking 0:16:43.361 --> 0:16:47.441 around for a while. It's been really useful making sure 0:16:47.561 --> 0:16:51.561 I have things in place that I can do every week, 0:16:51.601 --> 0:16:56.001 So routines around meal prepping, exercisings like that that help 0:16:56.081 --> 0:17:00.801 keep me balanced, ensuring that I'm not overloading my workdays, 0:17:01.441 --> 0:17:03.561 but that i still have fun things to look forward to, 0:17:03.761 --> 0:17:06.121 even if it's grabbing a coffee with a colleague during 0:17:06.161 --> 0:17:10.120 the day, just breaking things up, and also just acknowledging 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:13.360 that we have sick leave and personally, for a reason, 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:16.400 take that leaf for yourself, look after yourself, prioritize your 0:17:16.441 --> 0:17:19.521 own well being. I've recently come back from ten days 0:17:19.561 --> 0:17:21.281 off so i could spend time with the family and 0:17:21.360 --> 0:17:27.080 it was a really refreshing thing. Yeah, so those little things, Yeah. 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:30.801 It's so great to hear that because the work you 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:35.120 do is so important and we need people like you 0:17:35.441 --> 0:17:38.640 healthy and well so that you can help other people 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:41.840 in our society. That really do need a hand, then, 0:17:42.001 --> 0:17:45.360 is there, and without breaking any confidentiality or anything like that, 0:17:45.481 --> 0:17:50.001 is there one story that's really stayed with you. 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:54.761 That's a really good question. I think it's maybe not 0:17:54.961 --> 0:17:59.041 one story, but I think one theme that always stays 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:02.041 with me that actually I think ties it nicely to 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:04.521 something I was Kate, I was watching your Rethink Addiction 0:18:04.721 --> 0:18:06.920 talk twenty twenty two when there was something you said 0:18:07.721 --> 0:18:10.080 in that that really links in what was sort of 0:18:10.120 --> 0:18:13.720 this theme, which is when you speak to someone on 0:18:13.761 --> 0:18:16.160 the gambling lines or on the gambling web chats, the 0:18:16.360 --> 0:18:19.441 level of shame that people are experiencing, and that stigma 0:18:19.801 --> 0:18:24.561 can be so overwhelming and so often you'll be speaking 0:18:24.561 --> 0:18:27.281 to people, I think, particularly with some of the blokes, 0:18:27.321 --> 0:18:29.481 we speak to men who would not normally be letting 0:18:29.521 --> 0:18:33.681 themselves cry or feeling emotion to this level and all 0:18:33.721 --> 0:18:36.521 of their barriers are down and there is such a 0:18:36.561 --> 0:18:39.081 level of vulnerability and being able to sit with them 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:41.840 in that space and hold them and then really emphasizing 0:18:42.001 --> 0:18:45.801 the element of addiction by design, encouraging them to acknowledge 0:18:45.801 --> 0:18:48.840 that this is not a reflection on them. They're not weak, 0:18:49.441 --> 0:18:52.160 there's nothing wrong with them. It's not that they're unable 0:18:52.521 --> 0:18:54.561 to make a change or just unable to stop. It's 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:56.680 that this is a system which has been designed to 0:18:57.481 --> 0:19:00.200 keep them locked in, and there is a way they 0:19:00.241 --> 0:19:03.120 can break three of this, and there is support for them, 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:06.561 but really just helping them understand that this is not 0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:10.641 a reflection on them and they are not defined by 0:19:10.681 --> 0:19:14.201 the gambling harm And it is something that always hits 0:19:14.201 --> 0:19:16.960 home with me with the gambling calls and the web chats, 0:19:17.080 --> 0:19:21.481 is just how damaging that stigma and shame is and 0:19:21.561 --> 0:19:25.641 how important it is for us to help people challenge 0:19:25.681 --> 0:19:29.441 that and help them reground themselves and acknowledge that it's 0:19:29.481 --> 0:19:31.921 not them, it's a system and they can move past 0:19:31.921 --> 0:19:33.600 it and they can break out of that system. 0:19:34.321 --> 0:19:37.161 I can firsthand talk about, you know, I had an 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:39.921 issue with alcohol and the shame I felt around that 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:44.161 and to this day still feel. You know, I've actually 0:19:44.201 --> 0:19:47.481 literally come from seeing my psychologists to come and talk 0:19:47.481 --> 0:19:50.921 to you guys, because I've recognized it's something I have 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:54.801 to work through and deal with because at the end 0:19:54.801 --> 0:19:58.840 of the day, it's only society that's putting those boundaries 0:19:59.160 --> 0:20:02.680 on me. I should be feeling really proud, like you 0:20:02.761 --> 0:20:06.480 should Kate that we've worked through things and it'll be 0:20:06.521 --> 0:20:07.801 a work for the rest of our lives. 0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:09.321 I have no doubt. But that's okay. 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:12.001 That we should be really proud of ourselves for me 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:17.281 not drinking, Kate not gambling, you know, So instead of 0:20:17.481 --> 0:20:21.961 feeling shame or being shamed, we should be celebrating our successes. 0:20:22.801 --> 0:20:26.361 And I think that's something we need to as Australians 0:20:26.561 --> 0:20:31.160 work on rather than shaming people for because let's face it, 0:20:31.281 --> 0:20:34.640 we're open about it. There's so many people that aren't 0:20:34.681 --> 0:20:37.920 open about it and are living, you know, these lives 0:20:37.961 --> 0:20:42.041 where they're constantly and turmoil. And you know, you and I, 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:45.120 for whatever reason, have been able to deal with our 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:47.801 demons and get to the other side. But I think 0:20:47.840 --> 0:20:51.920 we do need to change the dialogue around shame and 0:20:52.001 --> 0:20:54.201 embarrassment because we're all just humans. 0:20:54.840 --> 0:20:59.761 Yeah, especially in the gambling space, shame has been weaponized 0:20:59.921 --> 0:21:03.801 by the industry and that's something I didn't understand when 0:21:03.801 --> 0:21:06.321 I was experiencing it. I was like, why can't I 0:21:06.400 --> 0:21:10.600 do this normally like other people? And just as you're 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:16.001 saying about alcohol, it's a normalized toxin. You know, gambling 0:21:16.041 --> 0:21:22.201 spaces are toxic environments. And we've convinced ourselves that there's 0:21:22.201 --> 0:21:24.921 something wrong with us if we can't engage in it 0:21:25.521 --> 0:21:29.240 in a healthy way, Like it's just craziness when you 0:21:29.281 --> 0:21:32.801 can peel it back and understand, these are industries that 0:21:32.840 --> 0:21:40.361 have designed products and practices that attract and addict human beings. 0:21:40.001 --> 0:21:42.361 And we weren't built for that. No. 0:21:42.640 --> 0:21:45.801 You know, I noticed the other day that the pub 0:21:45.921 --> 0:21:49.360 where I live opposite us, the gambling rooms are open 0:21:49.441 --> 0:21:51.600 till four am. The rest of the pub shut down, 0:21:51.840 --> 0:21:56.720 but the gambling rooms are open till four am. So 0:21:56.880 --> 0:21:59.001 what does that tell you? It tells you that it's 0:21:59.041 --> 0:22:01.200 okay to gamble. Are we're going to support you in 0:22:01.241 --> 0:22:01.640 your habit? 0:22:02.201 --> 0:22:05.801 No, it tells you that that's their core business. That 0:22:06.481 --> 0:22:11.121 is their core business. The rest of the facade. All 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:14.600 they care about is exploiting you financially for as long 0:22:14.840 --> 0:22:15.561 as possible. 0:22:16.080 --> 0:22:18.801 Oh my god, you know what. I have never thought 0:22:18.801 --> 0:22:22.321 of it that way, And you're right, Kate. So if 0:22:22.321 --> 0:22:25.480 you're feeling comfortable, do you mind sharing your story? 0:22:25.561 --> 0:22:30.281 Kate? Sure. I grew up in Sydney in the late nineties. 0:22:30.400 --> 0:22:34.281 I turned eighteen and my boyfriend at the time was 0:22:34.321 --> 0:22:38.161 two years older, so he had kind of entrenched gambling 0:22:38.201 --> 0:22:41.641 habits because Sydney was all I knew and I had 0:22:41.681 --> 0:22:44.641 no idea that I was actually growing up in the 0:22:44.721 --> 0:22:48.801 capital of gambling harm in Australia. New South Wales has 0:22:48.961 --> 0:22:53.521 ninety eight thousand poke machines. There's two hundred thousand in 0:22:53.561 --> 0:22:57.201 the whole of Australia and News of Wells has half 0:22:57.241 --> 0:23:01.401 of them. So wow, every single social space I went 0:23:01.441 --> 0:23:05.440 to as a young person had gambling products, so I 0:23:05.481 --> 0:23:08.161 wanted to spend time with him. He sat me down, 0:23:08.321 --> 0:23:11.160 showed me how to use a poke machine and I 0:23:11.241 --> 0:23:15.761 put twenty dollars in and one that first time. And 0:23:16.201 --> 0:23:19.441 that was the worst thing that could have ever happened, 0:23:19.600 --> 0:23:25.721 because that pathway formed in my brain of you do this, 0:23:25.721 --> 0:23:29.640 this equals money. Then the person came and gave me 0:23:30.481 --> 0:23:32.840