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Speaker 1: Approche production.

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Speaker 2: You've heard across the last four episodes, the harrowing story

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Speaker 2: of Lee and Emma Lovell and their kids, these kids

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Speaker 2: making choices to do what they're doing, and Aaron and

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Speaker 2: his wife Christine.

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Speaker 3: I get that they use, but clearly lessons had not

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Speaker 3: been learned.

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Speaker 2: We've heard from people trying to make a difference.

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Speaker 4: Every day there's an opportunity for an adult to see

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Speaker 4: a young person in a different light and provide them

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Speaker 4: with that pathway to being a good human. And every

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Speaker 4: day there's a choice of that young person to be

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Speaker 4: a good human and to feel like they have an opportunity.

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Speaker 2: And some of the youths that have turned to crime.

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Speaker 5: Bigger quantities of ice and sell it to friends and friends.

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Speaker 2: But after all this noise, all the news reports and headlines,

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Speaker 2: what happens to people like Lee and his two daughters

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Speaker 2: when they go home and try to continue a normal

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Speaker 2: life while they're in grief, living in the same house

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Speaker 2: that their mum and wife was murdered in.

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Speaker 5: Well, initially.

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Speaker 6: I suppose I was like pretty numb from it a lot,

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Speaker 6: you know, a lot of it, And I suppose to

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Speaker 6: a certain extent, like I really struggle to grief forever.

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Speaker 6: And I think it's because you get like a I

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Speaker 6: found like I've had a preconception of what grief should

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Speaker 6: look like, and you know, you see a lot of

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Speaker 6: that from you know, I suppose you know from TVs

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Speaker 6: and movies where you know some women and you know

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Speaker 6: they sort of the can't get out of bed, don't

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Speaker 6: want to get out of bed, struggle to sort of

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Speaker 6: just live life and do things. And you know, I've

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Speaker 6: read before about even some people that get up and

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Speaker 6: get their kids to school and then just go back

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Speaker 6: to bed because they just find the day too hard.

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Speaker 6: But I don't know if this never never found that

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Speaker 6: sounds funny, But in some ways I wish I had that,

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Speaker 6: you know, But I just I went back to work

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Speaker 6: like six weeks after the event happened, and in hindsights,

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Speaker 6: I wish I would take a longer of work. And

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Speaker 6: it wasn't because I want to go back to work,

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Speaker 6: like you know, it was just that my work paid

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Speaker 6: me compassionately for a month, and then after that I

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Speaker 6: was dis expected to use my sick leave and I

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Speaker 6: didn't have some hours to take. But you don't know

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Speaker 6: what the future is going to bring. I think even

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Speaker 6: though I was like genuinely sick, later on, you might

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Speaker 6: need some of that time. So and I think also ways,

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Speaker 6: I just didn't necessarily want to be like sitting at

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Speaker 6: home by myself, like just.

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Speaker 5: You know, contemplating what happened.

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Speaker 6: So I went back to work, and I really struggled

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Speaker 6: to grieve, like I said, because you sort of you

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Speaker 6: got to work, you got to work full time a professional,

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Speaker 6: and then you've got to come home and then cook

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Speaker 6: meals and run a house and make sure the kids

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Speaker 6: are eating well. And I've got to connincids for school

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Speaker 6: and everything else. So and then it just failed at times.

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Speaker 6: There was then a little time forever, and you know,

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Speaker 6: you can't just switch those feelings on, and you can't

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Speaker 6: just I now I've got a couple of hours to

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Speaker 6: sit down and think about him. You can't just like

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Speaker 6: start crying. And it's doesn't work like that for me.

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Speaker 6: And I think also partly for me, it was like

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Speaker 6: because our house was like an active crime scene for

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Speaker 6: like two or three days and we couldn't come home,

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Speaker 6: and so I remember like walking in the door initially

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Speaker 6: and because the police had gone around were there like

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Speaker 6: printing dust stuff, and it was. It wasn't necessarily in

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Speaker 6: the hallways because they had a cleaning crew came around,

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Speaker 6: but you could still see it. And then obviously, you know,

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Speaker 6: the house was still a little bit untiny from Boxing

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Speaker 6: Day and Christmas.

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Speaker 5: So I remember like walking in the door and think,

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Speaker 5: I need to keep busy.

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Speaker 6: You know, I had a tidy way to ironing board

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Speaker 6: and cups and glasses and you know, and for a

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Speaker 6: lot a lot of time it sees off now, but

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Speaker 6: for a lot of times, a lot of months, it

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Speaker 6: was like.

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Speaker 5: I got to keep busy.

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Speaker 6: And even at times when you know, I suppose I'd

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Speaker 6: felt everything I could do in a house cleaning or whatever,

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Speaker 6: and I sit down, and then I would feel guilty

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Speaker 6: for like not doing something, not to allowing myself to

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Speaker 6: sit down and have a moment to watch a film

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Speaker 6: or watching TV or have a coffee rather than being

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Speaker 6: up and tidying the house and cooking food and whatever.

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Speaker 6: And so yeah, I think I think a lot of

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Speaker 6: it is just like I said, I'll always end up

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Speaker 6: back of my mind about I think that's you know,

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Speaker 6: that keeping busy attitude and the mentality is in almost

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Speaker 6: like held off that grief and like coming in do

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Speaker 6: you know what I'm saying, it's like put it out bay,

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Speaker 6: or it's behind putting it behind a door and it

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Speaker 6: won't allow it to come in. So yeah, it's been

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Speaker 6: it's been pretty hard to deal with. But I found that,

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Speaker 6: like listening to music has sort of really helped me

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Speaker 6: at times, and a lot of music that really meant

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Speaker 6: nothing to him and I, but music I found recently

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Speaker 6: or you know, because I've got like hour's drive to

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Speaker 6: work and.

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Speaker 5: Sometimes to put music on and cry in the truck.

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Speaker 6: So initially, like when when the sort of funeral and

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Speaker 6: everything was like kicking off, like it was initially like

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Speaker 6: sort of you know, ten plus people staying in our house,

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Speaker 6: but then a few of them you know, went back

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Speaker 6: to England reasonably early. They then went back and it

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Speaker 6: was just then the girls and I, you know, and

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Speaker 6: I don't know.

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Speaker 5: It was weird, just the three of us being in

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Speaker 5: a house.

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Speaker 2: For Lee not having much family in Australia, he needed

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Speaker 2: the community to come together, and for the most part

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Speaker 2: they did. He had some close friends and strangers off

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Speaker 2: for a get help.

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Speaker 6: But I've had a fair bit of support from people

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Speaker 6: since then, you know, like I said, like Emma used

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Speaker 6: to do whining for people, and there was one lady

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Speaker 6: there like Brenda, you know, especially surprise to me really,

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Speaker 6: like just her support that she'd been offering us has

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Speaker 6: been been outstanding, really, like you know, she and her husband,

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Speaker 6: you know, use some cars on the day and the

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Speaker 6: funeral to ferry some people around, and you know, she's.

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Speaker 5: Kept in contact when it works.

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Speaker 6: Sometimes I have to put down you know, like next

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Speaker 6: of kin and e merchant number and obviously always used

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Speaker 6: to put Emma down, but it's those little things afterwards

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Speaker 6: you think elvide I put down. So I started putting

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Speaker 6: a white Brenda down as my emergency number because she

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Speaker 6: only works in like North Lakes. And yeah, like just

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Speaker 6: other people through the girls school friends that we've known

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Speaker 6: have helped run the kids around at times, and you know,

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Speaker 6: other friends like Crystal Airs have you know, helped with

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Speaker 6: running the kids around and we catch up on that

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Speaker 6: other stuff. So I suppose it's not the same as

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Speaker 6: having a family around. And the girls and I went

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Speaker 6: back to the UK for Christmas. This one just gone

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Speaker 6: because I didn't want to be here for the first

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Speaker 6: anniversary and it was just so nice being around the

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Speaker 6: family and friends and just having their support, and I

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Speaker 6: don't know there was a nice thing.

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Speaker 2: We've heard about the support that's offered to you to

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Speaker 2: help rehabilitate them, but what's offered for victims of crime

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Speaker 2: like Lee and his kids. If you're a victim of

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Speaker 2: crime in Queensland, you can contact the Queensland Health Victim

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Speaker 2: Support Service for free counseling and support. Victims. Assist also

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Speaker 2: helps with financial assistance with medical expenses, counseling, loss of earnings,

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Speaker 2: and legal expenses. There are also special provisions for expenses

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Speaker 2: after a homicide or for people witnessing violence. Lee has

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Speaker 2: been pretty complimentary about the support he eventually received. However,

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Speaker 2: was disappointed by some of the procedures that happened around

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Speaker 2: the night of Emma's death and when he was dropped

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Speaker 2: back to his house across the next twenty four hours.

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Speaker 6: Like I don't want to seem like I'm criticizing like

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Speaker 6: the police, and I'm sure there maybe like they've you know,

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Speaker 6: maybe there's policies, procedures they've got to deal with. I

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Speaker 6: don't know, but I suppose from our family point of view,

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Speaker 6: like like I said, like that evening, like there was

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Speaker 6: you know, like I said, initially the girls around down

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Speaker 6: in Cat's house and then you know, Christ and Liz

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Speaker 6: turned up and from my understanding, like you know, obviously

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Speaker 6: a lot of the kids or the girls went with them.

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Speaker 5: The police what.

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Speaker 6: I've let to believe, never asked where they were going,

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Speaker 6: never asked for ID for my friends, never followed up

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Speaker 6: to make sure that they were okay, never went around

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Speaker 6: their house to make sure that it was safe or nothing,

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Speaker 6: you know, that evening, like I said, like I just

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Speaker 6: wanted someone to bring me back to North Lakes and

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Speaker 6: wanted to do it, you know, like I want to

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Speaker 6: someone to come to their house and hold my hand

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Speaker 6: or something, you know, sit with me on I told

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Speaker 6: the kids what would happened, and there was like nothing,

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Speaker 6: and then you know, I don't suppose I feel that

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Speaker 6: they needed to do that interview, like immediately after they

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Speaker 6: could have said that, you know, tell us where you're

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Speaker 6: gonna be and we will come around that house in

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Speaker 6: a few hours time. Go and be with your kids

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Speaker 6: and we'll see you later on tomorrow, you know, that

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Speaker 6: sort of attitude. But then after that there was a

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Speaker 6: QHVREESG the Queensland Home Side Victim of Support group.

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Speaker 5: They sort of got in contact, and they've been.

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Speaker 6: Really supportive towards me, and I suppose I wastive, but

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Speaker 6: not so much towards the kids really. But that was,

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Speaker 6: you know, I suppose I felt I wanted that support,

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Speaker 6: which is why i've sort of it wasn't necessary for

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Speaker 6: the kids as such, although they have behind the scenes,

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Speaker 6: like you know, they were trying to sort out like

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Speaker 6: counseling for the girls and I. But then but this

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Speaker 6: all takes time, you know, Like I suppose it's gonna

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Speaker 6: make you sound really lazy, but I just maybe wanted

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Speaker 6: someone to tie up at the door or say, hey,

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Speaker 6: let Lee be at this place with this time of

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Speaker 6: the kids, and they'll talk to about you know, rather

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Speaker 6: than like a generalized you know, I can sort something

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Speaker 6: out through you know, headspace, but you need to make

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Speaker 6: contact or do this.

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Speaker 5: Do that. But then it was me then chating the headspace.

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Speaker 2: And then Lee and Emma's two daughters are teenagers, and

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Speaker 2: after losing their mum and their dad being the headline

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Speaker 2: for school holidays early in February twenty sixteen, they have

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Speaker 2: to go back to school.

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Speaker 6: The school holidays were finished sort of end of January time,

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Speaker 6: and they went back to school for the first day

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Speaker 6: of school. So and I know what to do that really,

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Speaker 6: I think I thought it was good for them to

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Speaker 6: try and get some sort of normality in their lives and.

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Speaker 5: Be at school. I still need to learn.

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Speaker 6: So and their friends super supportive. I'm guessing Cassie's got

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Speaker 6: a small group of friends that you know. Yeah, I

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Speaker 6: think she found some of supporting them.

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Speaker 5: Scarlet maybe initially, but maybe not so much. I don't know.

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Speaker 5: She's had a few issues with friends.

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Speaker 6: And I I think, and I don't be harsh in

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Speaker 6: saying this, that like taking it to your listening, but

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Speaker 6: I think a lot of bitches, A lot of girls

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Speaker 6: can be bitches, to be honest, that you know, and

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Speaker 6: like they haven't been that great towards Scarlet really, and

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Speaker 6: I think they forget a lot of things pretty easy,

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Speaker 6: and probably because they're so wrapped up in their own

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Speaker 6: lives and maybe some people just don't care that you know,

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Speaker 6: what's happened to her really, So.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Was there ever a time that you thought I can't

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Speaker 2: live in this house, we have to move.

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Speaker 6: No, not really, No, it was sort of the opposite, really,

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Speaker 6: I am because when we moved to this house, in

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Speaker 6: January two, at twenty eighteen. It was initially a rental

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Speaker 6: property and through the help of Amma's mum with a

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Speaker 6: deposit amount, we were able to purchase the house. And

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Speaker 6: you know, so we put a fair bit of money

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Speaker 6: into the house, you know, put a new kitchen in,

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Speaker 6: and flooring and decorating and a whole rafter things. Really

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Speaker 6: and I didn't want one, you know, pretty horrific event

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Speaker 6: to take away from the happy times and that's that's

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Speaker 6: in this house. And I just thought also for the

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Speaker 6: kids that you know, if we moved that another house

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Speaker 6: is just going to be like a roof and four

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Speaker 6: walls with no memories in it. At least with this one,

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Speaker 6: you could probably talk about times we've had in the house.

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Speaker 6: But we've got a where the hallway is leading to

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Speaker 6: the kids bedrooms, you know, I've got her on there,

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Speaker 6: and we had some pictures up there anyway, of our family.

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Speaker 6: I've change a few around to have more of Emma

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Speaker 6: up there now and of us as a well, and

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Speaker 6: I put some extra photos up around the house of ever.

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Speaker 6: And I suppose I just I wouldn't necessarily celebrate her life,

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Speaker 6: but I suppose I can't try and keep her name

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Speaker 6: in conversations. You know, we sit at the table like

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Speaker 6: every night till we eat and don't always talk about memories,

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Speaker 6: but you know, sometimes we'll talk about things that have

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Speaker 6: happened or that's happening or whatever, and you know, I

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Speaker 6: try to bring Emma's name into.

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Speaker 5: Conversations and.

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Speaker 6: Joke to our you know, sort of lean back and

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Speaker 6: talk to her and say, oh, you know, I am

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Speaker 6: a lot of the girls attacking the mick out of.

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Speaker 4: Your or.

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Speaker 5: You know, that sort of stuff.

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Speaker 6: For they'll you know, they'll say that about her, that

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Speaker 6: sort of stuff.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 6: It's just yeah, like I don't I don't want to

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Speaker 6: be forgotten or just not spoken about really.

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Speaker 1: So so I am Professor Sally in a Bartlet. I

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Speaker 1: am a group leader in neuroscience in Clinical Sciences at

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Speaker 1: the University of Queensland University of Technology. I am a

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Speaker 1: pharmacist by training, and I also just finished at the

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Speaker 1: clime of counseling. But my main expertise is thirty years

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Speaker 1: of studying the brain and what leads to mental illness

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Speaker 1: and why. One of my main expertise is really is

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Speaker 1: in addiction neuroscience, which fits a lot to what we're

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Speaker 1: going to be talking about today. But also I've worked

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Speaker 1: a lot in trying to educate police, is justice, lawyers, magistrates,

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Speaker 1: and government around trauma informed effects on the brain and

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Speaker 1: what leads people to do what they do. And that's

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Speaker 1: kind of why I also have a podcast called Thriving

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Speaker 1: Minds and why I write books educate the public about

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Speaker 1: this conversation we're about to have.

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Speaker 2: So Selena, thank you for coming on. And I guess

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Speaker 2: my first question is how does early exposure to stress

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Speaker 2: or trauma, like maybe a dysfunctional family environment affect a

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Speaker 2: developing brain.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's what causes mental illness and addiction, and it's

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Speaker 1: multi generational, so it doesn't just start with one family.

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Speaker 1: The brains been evolving for two hundred million years of history.

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Speaker 1: And so the first cell born is a brain cell

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Speaker 1: or a nervous system, and that's highly impacted from the

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Speaker 1: day it starts in utero by the environment around it.

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Speaker 1: And that's unequivocal evidence because we now know because we

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Speaker 1: can see inside the brain, we can see inside the

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Speaker 1: womb and show how the environment shapes the nervous system

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Speaker 1: and the person that is to become later. But because

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Speaker 1: it's so disconnected in time. We only look at people

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Speaker 1: and their behavior. We don't understand their human EXAs experience.

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Speaker 2: We're not necessarily just talking about a family environment that's

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Speaker 2: happening right now. This could be previous generations of family

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Speaker 2: that this trauma has sort.

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Speaker 1: Of oh yeah, we know that for certain because we

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Speaker 1: can now sequence every cell in your body or your

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Speaker 1: DNA to put it in a simple way for people

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Speaker 1: to understand. Think about the Holocaust. So someone's in the Holocaust,

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Speaker 1: they survive, then they go on to have children. The

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Speaker 1: third generation of those children, even though they never saw

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Speaker 1: the Holocaust, still experience some aspects of how that was

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Speaker 1: handled by the family that survived that Holocaust.

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Speaker 2: How does that then increase the risk of criminal behavior for.

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Speaker 1: Instance, Well, it's the foundation blocks, so basically, but if

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Speaker 1: you didn't experience any of that, you're probably most likely

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Speaker 1: aren't going into crime or offending or addiction. If you're

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Speaker 1: born to a very loving, supportive home, the chances of

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Speaker 1: your committed crime are much smaller.

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Speaker 2: How much in your experience does addiction play a role

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Speaker 2: in youth crime?

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Speaker 7: Do you think?

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Speaker 1: There's multiple reasons, but that's a big one. So addiction

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Speaker 1: is medication for stress and trauma. So if you're experiencing

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Speaker 1: a lot of neglect at home or trauma or stress

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Speaker 1: and it's multi generation, or what do you do to

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Speaker 1: what does the brain help you do to feel better? Well,

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Speaker 1: that's drugs, gambling, pornography, all sorts of ways that we

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Speaker 1: each handle that trauma and stress in our own lives.

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Speaker 1: And people that are selling drugs, and you know that

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Speaker 1: there's a huge network of people out there trying to

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Speaker 1: target traumatize children because they're the sellers and that's who

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Speaker 1: sells their products.

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Speaker 2: Would you class social media as a possible addiction and

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Speaker 2: an addiction course.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's out a lot in this space right now,

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Speaker 1: and that's because social media is now getting to very

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Speaker 1: young children and phones and devices connected to the internet.

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Speaker 1: So right now in Australia we're only on the leading

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Speaker 1: countries for this and so that's a complete conduit son

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Speaker 1: easy way to get to children that they've never had before.

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Speaker 1: So that's really escalated many aspects of all of this,

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Speaker 1: and one of the big ones is stealing cars, because

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Speaker 1: what's the best thing you can do if you don't

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Speaker 1: have any love at home or any attention in the

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Speaker 1: community or society, What a great way to get it

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Speaker 1: by showing someone on social media this fast car you've

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Speaker 1: just stolen. So the first thing they do is they

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Speaker 1: put it up there to show off to get attention

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Speaker 1: and likes. They're not copying the criminal behavior, they're copying

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Speaker 1: lack of attention and looking for attention somewhere, so there's

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Speaker 1: someone giving them a tension for that criminal behavior. There's

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Speaker 1: a whole cadre of advanced technology, networked people that are

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Speaker 1: helping people learn how to do this. Kids aren't just

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Speaker 1: doing it off the back of their hat, they're learning

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Speaker 1: how to do it from somewhere. And vulnerable children that

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Speaker 1: aren't getting the enough attention somewhere they're the ones that

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Speaker 1: get targeted into this kind of approach. And even if

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Speaker 1: you are from a loving home and you might be with,

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Speaker 1: say you end up with someone that is leading you

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Speaker 1: down that pathway, the chances are that you'll be pulled

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Speaker 1: out of that pathway because you're getting noticed by someone

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Speaker 1: at home that you're heading down the wrong pathway. If

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Speaker 1: you have someone that's not there looking after you at

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Speaker 1: the highest levels, that leads you to keep going to

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Speaker 1: the people that are giving you the attention you need

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Speaker 1: and so I just want to say, this is at

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Speaker 1: the highest level of society. This is not just this

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Speaker 1: is at the highest level. We have large amount of

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Speaker 1: inequality in Australia. We never used to have quite the

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Speaker 1: same level. And I'm also American and live there for

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Speaker 1: a long time. And if we continue down the pathway

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Speaker 1: of individualism where we're striving for bigger houses and cars

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Speaker 1: over people in community and connection, this is just exactly

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Speaker 1: what will continue happening. And you see it in many

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Speaker 1: countries where inequality is at the highest level, the crime

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Speaker 1: rates go up because people have nothing to lose. So

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Speaker 1: right now, in the Bay Area, where the inequality is

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Speaker 1: very large, much larger than here, but we're heading in

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Speaker 1: that direction, people are just smashing windows and cars, not

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Speaker 1: even to steal anything out of those cars. So that's

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Speaker 1: what I say to my community that's listening. Can we

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Speaker 1: make sure we understand that we're creating the conditions for crime.

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Speaker 1: So if we want to continue in this pathway or

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Speaker 1: where we are in a struggle to get the biggest

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Speaker 1: house or the biggest car and then allow a lot

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Speaker 1: of people to have nothing, because the things that we

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Speaker 1: by mean that someone else is So there's a there's

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Speaker 1: a direct correlation.

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Speaker 2: What are some of the common misconceptions about youth crime

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Speaker 2: that neuroscience can help clarify.

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Speaker 1: Do you think obviously that the environments we create shape

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Speaker 1: our brains, so inside your brain, you are a product

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Speaker 1: of your environment. So therefore, if you're seeing crime, it's

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Speaker 1: a reflection in our society. So if we have good,

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Speaker 1: healthy brain development, then we want to help other people,

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Speaker 1: so we won't be looking at put blocking them in jail.

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Speaker 1: We'll be looking at what do we need to create

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Speaker 1: the condition, so we share our bounty downwards because if

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Speaker 1: we don't, we'll have to just keep going in this direction,

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Speaker 1: which means that some people have eighty houses and some

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Speaker 1: people are in the park where I live next door,

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Speaker 1: they're living in the bus stops and stuff like that,

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Speaker 1: and we walk past these people thinking it has no consequences,

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Speaker 1: Thank god, it's not us. But there is a con

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Speaker 1: sequence because we're paying for all of the charities, we're

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Speaker 1: paying for all of the mental health services, the police,

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Speaker 1: and we'll be building barbe wie offences around our houses.

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Speaker 1: And we know that can happen, and I see it

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Speaker 1: in other countries. We're not there yet, but that's the

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Speaker 1: direction we're heading unless we start to have these wonderful

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Speaker 1: conversations like we're having here with you, to say, what

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Speaker 1: can we do as a community, How do we come

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Speaker 1: back to Australia that makeship that village.

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Speaker 2: Who do you think is to blame for our current

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Speaker 2: youth crime crisis?

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Speaker 1: Well, it's the society, isn't it again. It's the global

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Speaker 1: it's the global race for individualism. And it goes back

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Speaker 1: to our animal nature in evolution, where we like to

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Speaker 1: in our brain we have to keep resources because we

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Speaker 1: think we're in scarce resources because we were once upon time,

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Speaker 1: but now we're not. We're in abundant resources. But we

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Speaker 1: still have that same animal instinct to squirrel away as

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Speaker 1: much as we can just in case. And we've squirreled

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Speaker 1: away so much. And that's the bit that people don't understand.

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Speaker 1: They just think I've had to get my bootstraps and

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Speaker 1: fight it hard. They might say, well, I had terrible parents,

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Speaker 1: but look what I did. Why can't they do that?

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Speaker 1: Because they don't understand just how much impact has happened

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Speaker 1: in the way their brain can work.

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Speaker 2: It feels like a really big bridge to cross.

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Speaker 1: At the moment. It does because of those conditions we

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Speaker 1: created that we believe in this individualism which is coming

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Speaker 1: from American culture.

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Speaker 2: What are the small steps we can take now?

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Speaker 1: Right now, just reach out to someone that needs you

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Speaker 1: because you have all the resources. If you're listening to this,

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Speaker 1: you probably have a phone because you're listening to a podcast.

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Speaker 1: You probably have a car, a house, and some food.

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Speaker 1: Right now, all the thing that will make you healthier

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Speaker 1: if you want to just go to the individualism is

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Speaker 1: helping someone else. And so our human nature is designed

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Speaker 1: for helping up the people and connecting with other people.

438
00:24:11,441 --> 00:24:14,281
Speaker 1: And so there's one hundred ways that you could do

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00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,441
Speaker 1: that today. And even if it's just in your own family.

440
00:24:17,561 --> 00:24:20,281
Speaker 1: So even see families not helping members of their family

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00:24:20,321 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 1: where they have a struggle. And I know it's not easy.

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00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:25,281
Speaker 1: So if you can't do it there, do it in

443
00:24:25,321 --> 00:24:29,801
Speaker 1: your school, do it at your workplace. Ask someone if

444
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,481
Speaker 1: you know they're struggling. It is personal and it might

445
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:37,201
Speaker 1: involve a couple of years of time. It's worth it.

446
00:24:37,921 --> 00:24:40,640
Speaker 1: So people say to me all the time, and I

447
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: can give one hundred examples of this day. Don't go there, Selena,

448
00:24:44,921 --> 00:24:50,680
Speaker 1: it's too much work. Our community needs that work, and

449
00:24:50,721 --> 00:24:53,440
Speaker 1: if we want to create the conditions where we don't

450
00:24:53,521 --> 00:24:57,481
Speaker 1: have these conversations and we're not blaming people but seeing it,

451
00:24:57,961 --> 00:25:01,401
Speaker 1: but pointing the finger back to us, to see our

452
00:25:01,481 --> 00:25:05,241
Speaker 1: contribution to the situation that we're in. That's the solution.

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Speaker 2: In the next episode of Who's to Blame.

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Speaker 7: I accept that a lot of these young offenders have

455
00:25:12,801 --> 00:25:17,001
Speaker 7: had very, very difficult upbringings, but we're in the so

456
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,921
Speaker 7: called lucky country, right We've got the mechanisms to support

457
00:25:19,961 --> 00:25:23,640
Speaker 7: people to do something other than aow someone to go

458
00:25:23,721 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 7: before to court and have eighty two offenses before that

459
00:25:28,761 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 7: the community is protected.

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Speaker 3: For me, you've taken someone's life fourteen years doesn't seem enough.

461
00:25:35,360 --> 00:25:39,640
Speaker 3: I get that they yoused, but clearly lessons had not

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00:25:39,721 --> 00:25:41,360
Speaker 3: been learned from our incident.

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Speaker 7: What are other governments, what other countries doing? What are

464
00:25:44,561 --> 00:25:50,241
Speaker 7: people doing that ultimately results in an effective outcome or

465
00:25:50,281 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 7: at least reduces crime rates, at least perfects the community

466
00:25:53,721 --> 00:25:56,241
Speaker 7: a little better than we're doing now. We need to

467
00:25:56,281 --> 00:25:59,321
Speaker 7: be looking at it and understanding whether that's something that

468
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,041
Speaker 7: here in Queensland, here in Australia, might be effective to

469
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,360
Speaker 7: defense the outcome that we're experiencing. Out and be in

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Speaker 7: my love of experience,