WEBVTT - Why 'good character' references are being scrapped

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<v Speaker 1>It's incredibly rare to see reform of this magnitude. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>Australia's legal system, it doesn't change often, but when it does,

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<v Speaker 1>it's because our understanding of harm is shifted.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 3>For years, survivors of some of the worst crimes imaginable

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<v Speaker 3>have been put through hell. Their perpetrators have been allowed

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<v Speaker 3>to use glowing character references in court in an effort

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<v Speaker 3>to have their sentences reduced.

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<v Speaker 1>If you sexually be as a child, you are not

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<v Speaker 1>of good character. If you are violent towards your partner,

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<v Speaker 1>you are not of good character.

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<v Speaker 3>But today that's set to change as New South Wales

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<v Speaker 3>introduces new laws scrapping character references for all criminal sentencing.

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<v Speaker 3>This comes after years of campaigning from sexual abuse survivors

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<v Speaker 3>like Harrison James.

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<v Speaker 1>And these aren't just legal twigs. They change how we

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<v Speaker 1>talk about power. They change how we talk about harm

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<v Speaker 1>and accountability as a society.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm Nicole Johnston and you're listening to seven AM today.

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<v Speaker 3>Your reference ain't relevant. Co founder Harrison James on what

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<v Speaker 3>these changes mean for victims and if the rest of

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<v Speaker 3>the country will catch up. It's Wednesday, February four and

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<v Speaker 3>just a warning that today's episode includes discussion of sexual abuse. So, Harrison,

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<v Speaker 3>if we could go back a little bit, can you

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<v Speaker 3>describe for us what a character reference is in court

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<v Speaker 3>and how the system has been working up until now.

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<v Speaker 1>In the court process, if we split it into two parts,

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<v Speaker 1>we have the trial and we have sentencing. So an

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<v Speaker 1>accused offender will go through the trial, all the facts

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<v Speaker 1>will be established, it will result in the conviction guilty

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<v Speaker 1>or not guilty. If they're guilty, they'll come back to

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<v Speaker 1>court after for the second half of that trial process,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's called sentencing. And that's where the convicted offenders, friends, family,

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<v Speaker 1>and colleagues can write these, you know, bias letters saying

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<v Speaker 1>that that, oh, you know, he might have been doing this,

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<v Speaker 1>but he's actually a good bloke, or he's a pillar

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<v Speaker 1>of the community, or he's a dedicated and loving father.

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<v Speaker 1>And for a victim to have to sit in that

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<v Speaker 1>courtroom after going through a rigorous trial and thinking they've

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<v Speaker 1>got justice after a conviction, it's absolutely devastating and it's gaslighting,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, for a victim to have to sit there

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<v Speaker 1>and listen to that, and it's incredibly to humanizing. And

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<v Speaker 1>that's why we were inspired to make this change and

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<v Speaker 1>push for it.

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<v Speaker 4>In my example, I.

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<v Speaker 1>Was sexually assaulted by my stepmother every day for three

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<v Speaker 1>years between the ages of thirteen to sixteen. She would

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<v Speaker 1>still be well within her right to go to court

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<v Speaker 1>and ask for a good character references and in turn

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<v Speaker 1>get a lighter sentence. So at the Your Reference Relevant campaign,

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<v Speaker 1>our original ask was to abolish good character references for

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<v Speaker 1>all convicted child sex offenders because we understand that good

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<v Speaker 1>character is actually part of the crime. Offenders need to

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<v Speaker 1>you to their good character to gurum not just the victim,

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<v Speaker 1>but everyone around that victim, the support network around that

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<v Speaker 1>victim into thinking that they're a safe from a reliable

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<v Speaker 1>person to leave a child in the care of right

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<v Speaker 1>and that's how they exploit that child for sexual abuse.

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<v Speaker 1>But the New South Wales government has gone one step

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<v Speaker 1>further and abolished it for all references because after three

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<v Speaker 1>years of research, the New South Wales Sentencing Council has

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<v Speaker 1>found that they're arbitrary and not effective at all.

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<v Speaker 3>So why did the New South Wales government decide to

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<v Speaker 3>do that?

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<v Speaker 1>So the reason the New South Wales government has done

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<v Speaker 1>that is because they understand the demographic of who gets

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<v Speaker 1>these good character references right, And if we look at

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<v Speaker 1>the research from the University of New South Wales and

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<v Speaker 1>doctor Michael Salter's research into perpetrators and offending behaviors that

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<v Speaker 1>child sexually specifically, these offenders, more often than not, they're married,

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<v Speaker 1>they have children, they have phenomenal jobs, they are in

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<v Speaker 1>positions of influence. More broadly, if a middle aged white

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<v Speaker 1>man who has a great job, is married and have

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<v Speaker 1>kids and lives in an affluent area, he could probably

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<v Speaker 1>go down to the surf club, he could reach out

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<v Speaker 1>to his local politicians, he could get all these people

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<v Speaker 1>of influence in the community to write a good character

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<v Speaker 1>reference for him. But if we think about someone in

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<v Speaker 1>a low as socioeconomic situation, for example, they might not

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<v Speaker 1>have the same access to those good character references. So

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<v Speaker 1>what it's trying to do is even out the playing

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<v Speaker 1>field before they even enter a courtroom, and the focus

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<v Speaker 1>is purely on the harm of the crime, on the

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<v Speaker 1>harm that was caused of the crime, and the facts

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<v Speaker 1>of the crime. Character evidence is still permissible, So they're

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<v Speaker 1>not references, they're not letters, they're character evidence. It's a

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<v Speaker 1>very different thing. And also prospects of rehabilitation are still permissible.

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<v Speaker 1>During sentencing. So these are totally objective factors that are

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<v Speaker 1>important for the judges to weigh up and get a

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<v Speaker 1>full picture of how the crime played out. But good

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<v Speaker 1>character references for you to have family and friends and

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<v Speaker 1>relatives and colleagues to write these very biased letters, it's

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<v Speaker 1>not objective. It's totally subjective, and that's why the New

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<v Speaker 1>Southwest government has taken the position that they have to

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<v Speaker 1>go further.

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<v Speaker 3>Could you give us some specific examples of some of

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<v Speaker 3>the most disturbing cases of character references that have been

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<v Speaker 3>used in sentencing, of course.

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<v Speaker 1>And I've actually sat in on a few court cases

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<v Speaker 1>where I've supported the victims and I can speak firsthand.

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<v Speaker 1>One thing that springs to mind is the convicted child

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<v Speaker 1>sex offender Paul Frost.

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<v Speaker 2>A former Sydney swimming coach who preyed on his students,

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<v Speaker 2>has been jailed for thirty two years. Paul Frost is

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<v Speaker 2>the son of an Olympic level swimming trainer. A jarge

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<v Speaker 2>today saying he used that fact to sexually abuse eleven children, and.

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<v Speaker 1>During sentencing he had character references that described him as

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<v Speaker 1>a champion of young people. I mean those adult survivors

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<v Speaker 1>and their families. Had to sit there in court sentencing

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<v Speaker 1>and here him lauded as a champion of young people.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's just it's offensive, and it became one

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<v Speaker 1>of the central catalysts for the campaign. Another example that

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<v Speaker 1>I can think of is is George Pell.

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<v Speaker 2>Cardinal George Pell, once considered one of the Pope's trusted lieutenants,

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<v Speaker 2>is now facing time in prison.

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<v Speaker 1>And he received good character references from John Howard and

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<v Speaker 1>Tony Abbott, and those references emphasized his stand in any

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<v Speaker 1>service and his reputation. But you know, obviously he was

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<v Speaker 1>later acquitted of those crimes, but at the time good

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<v Speaker 1>character was given to him, even with the most serious allegations,

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<v Speaker 1>and people would rather go to his defense rather than

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<v Speaker 1>have to hear what the victims and survivors allegedly went through.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the reasons that so many victims never report

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<v Speaker 1>is fear. It's the fear of not being believed, it's

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<v Speaker 1>the fear of being diminished, it's the fear of watching

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<v Speaker 1>their offender being praised in And this reform helps restore

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<v Speaker 1>that confidence in victims and survivors that the justice system

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<v Speaker 1>will understand the harm that was caused to them. And

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<v Speaker 1>this matters if we want people to.

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<v Speaker 3>Comforward coming up as the country watches on, will the

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<v Speaker 3>rest of Australia follow Harrison? This legal reform is great

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<v Speaker 3>news for survivors of abuse in New South Wales, but

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<v Speaker 3>what about the rest of the country. Could you explain

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<v Speaker 3>how the other states stand on character references for criminals

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<v Speaker 3>break it down for us.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, the system that's at play now is how it's

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<v Speaker 1>always been. You know, there's character references are permissible in

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<v Speaker 1>the other states and territories apart from New South Wales.

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<v Speaker 1>But in the Australian Capital Territory, we were working with

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<v Speaker 1>their Attorney General and they adopted our original proposal of

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<v Speaker 1>totally abolishing good character references for convicted child sex offenders.

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<v Speaker 1>So that legislation has been introduced in the Australian Capital

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<v Speaker 1>Territory and we're very very excited about that. But Queensland

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<v Speaker 1>only decided to limit the use of good character references,

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<v Speaker 1>so defense lawyers and perpetrators of this crime can argue

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<v Speaker 1>that good character references become commissible in sentencing because the

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<v Speaker 1>Queensland government only limited them, they didn't fully abolish them.

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<v Speaker 3>So all of the states have different laws, which means

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<v Speaker 3>it's not as simple as them being able to just

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<v Speaker 3>copy and paste the New South Wales reform. How convinced

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<v Speaker 3>are you that they will follow suit?

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, I'm incredibly convinced that they will follow suit because

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<v Speaker 1>we've developed personal relationships with most attorney generals apart from

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<v Speaker 1>the Northern Territory and Victoria, and I am incredibly confident

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<v Speaker 1>that we will see this come to fruition because it's

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<v Speaker 1>the right thing to do and it's a common sense

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<v Speaker 1>it's not controversial at all. It's a common sense approach

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<v Speaker 1>to justice and it's a fair approach to justice. This

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<v Speaker 1>is good law.

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<v Speaker 3>There has been some limited criticism of the reform from

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<v Speaker 3>some lawyers who say that it makes the system less,

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<v Speaker 3>just that it's taking away some rights of the defendants.

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<v Speaker 3>What do you say to that.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, look, the New South Wales Sensing Council is a

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<v Speaker 1>group of sixteen members. These are high court judges, these

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<v Speaker 1>are defense lawyers, these are some of the most profound

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<v Speaker 1>legal scholars and minds that the state and country has

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<v Speaker 1>to offer. And out of those sixteen members only two dissented.

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<v Speaker 1>This was a majority. It was an overwhelming majority of

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<v Speaker 1>lawyers and legal minds that back this reform, and every

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<v Speaker 1>major reform that we see has faced resistance from parts

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<v Speaker 1>of the legal profession. It's a system and an institution

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<v Speaker 1>that is entrenched in tradition, and that happened with some

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<v Speaker 1>of the examples I listed before. It happened with no

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<v Speaker 1>fault divorce, it happened with marital rape that was criminalized,

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<v Speaker 1>it happened with affirmative consent. And history has shown that

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<v Speaker 1>discomfort often precedes progress. And after years of review and

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<v Speaker 1>scrutiny and debate, this reform prevailed because it's evidence based

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<v Speaker 1>and it's long overdue. So that's what I would say

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<v Speaker 1>to the criticism that an overwhelming majority agreed with this

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<v Speaker 1>reform and it was done after years of research.

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<v Speaker 3>Harrison, you're going to be in Parliament today when these

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<v Speaker 3>new laws are introduced. How emotional will that moment be

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<v Speaker 3>for you as a campaigner and as a survivor yourself?

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, to be incredibly emotional. I mean, it's just the

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<v Speaker 1>it's the back end of all this hard work and

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<v Speaker 1>seeing it come to fruition truly as a dream come true.

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<v Speaker 1>It's wonderful and it makes me proud of what my

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<v Speaker 1>campaign partner, Jared and I have achieved.

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<v Speaker 4>It makes me proud of what we've built.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, we did this to ensure that other

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<v Speaker 1>victim survivors in the community could see that they can

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<v Speaker 1>transform their pain into purpose and that's what we did.

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<v Speaker 1>We had this painful experience and we said, no, we

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<v Speaker 1>want to ensure that the next kid doesn't experience what

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<v Speaker 1>we did. And we wanted to pay it forward and

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<v Speaker 1>do the right and do the right thing. And you

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<v Speaker 1>know that's not every victim survivor has to do that.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not a right of passage to be seen as

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<v Speaker 1>worthy or validated or for your pain to be seen.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's how we chose to heal. It's how I

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<v Speaker 1>chose to heal. And to see it all come to

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<v Speaker 1>a head in New South Wales Parliament is just like

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<v Speaker 1>it just blows my mind. It's not even real, but

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<v Speaker 1>it is happening and I'm very excited to see it.

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<v Speaker 3>Harrison, thank you so much for sharing your story with us.

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<v Speaker 4>Thank you, Nicole, I appreciate it.

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<v Speaker 3>Also in the news, the Reserve Bank has lifted interest

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<v Speaker 3>rates for the first time since twenty twenty three. The

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<v Speaker 3>official cash rate will rise by a quarter of a

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<v Speaker 3>percent to three point eighty five percent. The move, triggered

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<v Speaker 3>by his surprise rise in inflation figures, will see mortgage

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<v Speaker 3>repayments jump by around one hundred dollars for a six

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<v Speaker 3>hundred thousand dollars home loan, and the New South Wales

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<v Speaker 3>Police Commissioner has extended a ban on protests for the

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<v Speaker 3>fourth time since the Bondai massacre. He says planned rallies

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<v Speaker 3>protesting a visit by Israeli President Isaac Herzog or a

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<v Speaker 3>factor in the decision. Authorities are preparing for nationwide protests

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<v Speaker 3>against Hertzog on Monday. I'm Nicole Johnston. This is seven am.

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<v Speaker 3>I'll be back tomorrow