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Speaker 1: Hey Phil, how would you describe Albo?

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Speaker 2: Albo is a leader who puts principle above popularity.

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Speaker 3: Albo is an absolute phenomenal golfer.

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Speaker 2: He always gets holes in.

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Speaker 4: One whenever he plays.

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Speaker 5: The Coalition is saying that soon you won't be able

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Speaker 5: to criticise the Prime Minister on the internet. I don't

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Speaker 5: trust Labor to censor Australian social media.

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Speaker 4: Do you?

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Speaker 5: It's part of its campaign against Labor's proposed digital duty

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Speaker 5: of care, which the opposition has branded the Albo Rhythm.

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Speaker 5: arguing it would give the government the power to decide

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Speaker 5: what Australians can see and say online. So what's actually

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Speaker 5: in the government's bill, and how far does it go

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Speaker 5: to addressing the harms created by social media and its algorithms?

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Speaker 5: I'm Ruby Jones, and you're listening to 7am. Today, Chair

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Speaker 5: of Digital Rights Watch Liz Yoshae, on whether Labor can

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Speaker 5: force big tech to change what it serves us, and

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Speaker 5: why Donald Trump's White House has now weighed in. It's Tuesday,

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Speaker 5: October 13. Lizzie, when it comes to the government's digital

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Speaker 5: duty of care, we've heard a lot about one particular

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Speaker 5: part of this proposal, giving people the ability to switch

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Speaker 5: off the algorithms that control their feed. But more broadly,

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Speaker 5: tell me about what's actually in this bill.

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Speaker 4: Yes, so the requirements of this bill is that it

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Speaker 4: creates a digital duty of care on certain kinds of

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Speaker 4: internet service providers, social media platforms and the like.

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Speaker 6: The same way that we have safety standards for cars,

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Speaker 6: for food, for appliances, Australia is setting basic safety standards

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Speaker 6: for the online tools and online services within our digital

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Speaker 6: duty of care.

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Speaker 4: The proposal is that these services have to provide a

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Speaker 4: safe online environment. And what that means is that they

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Speaker 4: have to protect users from certain kinds of content.

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Speaker 6: So the kind of serious harms that we're talking about here,

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Speaker 6: that adults will be prevented from engaging in online, child

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Speaker 6: sexual exploitation, child abuse material, child grooming, violence, sexual violence, menacing,

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Speaker 6: threatening or harassment, and the promotion of terrorism and extremency.

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Speaker 4: And then when it comes to children, there's a more

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Speaker 4: expansive list, which includes things like bullying content, content about

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Speaker 4: eating disorders and the like, as well as pornography. And

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Speaker 4: the idea is that platforms and other internet service providers

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Speaker 4: will have to protect people from that content. They'll have

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Speaker 4: to conduct risk assessments as well, and they'll have to

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Speaker 4: manage design features that are considered particularly harmful.

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Speaker 5: Okay, can you talk to me a little bit more

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Speaker 5: about that, about what creating a duty of care actually

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Speaker 5: solves that existing online safety laws haven't been able to?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so online safety laws in Australia have been quite prescriptive.

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Speaker 4: There's a bunch of codes and basic online safety expectations

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Speaker 4: that have been set up. we're moving into a much

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Speaker 4: more straightforward overarching concept where we say to platforms, for example,

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Speaker 4: you have a duty of care. So it's not the

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Speaker 4: user's obligation to work out what is harmful and protect themselves.

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Speaker 4: There's this overarching duty of care owed to users and

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Speaker 4: it puts the obligation back on the platform to do

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Speaker 4: that work. Now, I think what's interesting also about the

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Speaker 4: duty of care is that it does impose the obligation

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Speaker 4: to conduct risk assessments and rather than all this research

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Speaker 4: and analysis kept within the company, then instead they'll have

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Speaker 4: to do this work and share it with members of

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Speaker 4: the public and others, which gives us a better understanding

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Speaker 4: of what kinds of risks there are online.

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Speaker 5: And the big political argument now is over who gets

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Speaker 5: to decide what harm actually is. The Coalition is calling

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Speaker 5: this the Alborhythm. They say it gives the government the

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Speaker 5: power to censor lawful speech.

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Speaker 1: Supporting or going forward with this digital duty of care

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Speaker 1: legislation would be like putting Anthony Albanese in charge of

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Speaker 1: refereeing a South Sydney Rabideaus game. He's a big Rabideaus fan.

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Speaker 1: He can't be trusted to be the umpire.

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Speaker 5: One Nation is calling it CCP, communist style internet censorship.

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Speaker 3: So everything is about control the people. This stinks of

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Speaker 3: the Marxism and communism. It's about controlling the people, your

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Speaker 3: thought process. And once you do that, we've lost our democracy.

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Speaker 5: So under this draft, who actually decides what counts as

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Speaker 5: harmful and what checks are there on that power?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so I think the first thing to say is

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Speaker 4: when you go online, what you see is a curated

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Speaker 4: set of content that is designed by the businesses that

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Speaker 4: run these online spaces. And they have particular motivations. Often

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Speaker 4: they're trying to keep you online because they can expose

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Speaker 4: you to advertising, which is their business model. They often

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Speaker 4: have algorithms that prioritise certain kind of content that keep

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Speaker 4: you online for as long as possible, and it tends

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Speaker 4: to be more extreme. So the allegations or the claims

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Speaker 4: that this is a real promotion of censorship have to

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Speaker 4: be understood in that context. The other big problem I've

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Speaker 4: got with this bill currently is there is an issue

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Speaker 4: of enforcement. How do we make sure that companies are

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Speaker 4: complying When we look at the Safety Commissioner, it's a

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Speaker 4: relatively well-resourced regulator, but currently that commissioner is regulating some

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Speaker 4: of the largest companies in the world, and it's very

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Speaker 4: difficult to do that effectively, even with a large budget.

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Speaker 4: And there's a question around whether the regulator alone should

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Speaker 4: be doing that work, whether we need, like what we've

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Speaker 4: seen in places like the United States, the right of

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Speaker 4: people to bring actions directly against these platforms when they've

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Speaker 4: caused harm. And I think there's some real utility in

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Speaker 4: thinking through how enforcement could work outside of just the

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Speaker 4: regulator being the sole source of enforcement.

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Speaker 5: Okay, so there's this broad acknowledgement, I think, that algorithms

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Speaker 5: cause harm. So is what's being considered here enough, or

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Speaker 5: do you think we need more transparency about how platforms

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Speaker 5: are actually deciding what gets promoted and what gets suppressed

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Speaker 5: in the first place.

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Speaker 4: So there's a whole section of the bill that kind

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Speaker 4: of sits alongside the digital duty of care, which talks

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Speaker 4: about user empowerment tools. And there is very little detail

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Speaker 4: about what those user empowerment tools will be. So there

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Speaker 4: is a lot of complexity around this, like how you

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Speaker 4: make a user empowerment tool actually useful to users is

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Speaker 4: a bit of a thorny question. There's been in other

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Speaker 4: parts of the world, what has been described as malicious compliance,

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Speaker 4: whereby some of these companies make it difficult to continue

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Speaker 4: to maintain your preferences in what you might see in

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Speaker 4: your feed, for example, having to go through lots of

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Speaker 4: pop-ups and the like and continually restate what your preferences are.

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Speaker 4: And I think that is a problem, right? We have

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Speaker 4: to work out ways in which we can make it

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Speaker 4: as easy as possible to give people greater control over

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Speaker 4: what their online space looks like. And we're working in

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Speaker 4: this instance in dialogue with a bunch of companies that

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Speaker 4: might have business incentives that work against that. So it

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Speaker 4: would be a disappointing outcome, I think, if where it

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Speaker 4: led to was people just defaulting back to what they

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Speaker 4: currently have, which prioritises the interests of platforms, I think,

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Speaker 4: too often and can have really negative consequences. But we'll

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Speaker 4: have to see how that detail unfolds. And I think

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Speaker 4: there is a broader point here as well. How do

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Speaker 4: we make sure that content that is monetised online or

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Speaker 4: advertising content that appears in your feed is regulated? Advertising

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Speaker 4: can be really harmful because You know, we know that

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Speaker 4: some of the biggest advertisers on social media platforms are

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Speaker 4: fast food, gambling companies, alcohol companies, and they're very precise

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Speaker 4: in when they target you with particular forms of ads

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Speaker 4: based on your browsing history, your user history, the time

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Speaker 4: of day, what you might be exhibiting in terms of

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Speaker 4: your emotional state. Now, at the moment, advertising content is

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Speaker 4: pretty much excluded from the digital duty of care, but

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Speaker 4: there are, I think, some interesting ways in which we

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Speaker 4: could start to look at that issue. including by creating

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Speaker 4: ad libraries, for example, of all ads served on social media,

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Speaker 4: which would give people a greater understanding of what kind

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Speaker 4: of content is being prioritised in their feed that's paid for,

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Speaker 4: that justifies the business model, and perhaps criticising or coming

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Speaker 4: to terms with what is the social licence to operate

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Speaker 4: and whether we should have restrictions on advertising as it

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Speaker 4: appears in your feed, for example.

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Speaker 5: Still to come, why Donald Trump is weighing in on

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Speaker 5: all of this. Lizzie, the Trump administration has now made

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Speaker 5: a formal submission attacking this proposal and asking for American

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Speaker 5: social media companies to effectively be carved out of it.

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Speaker 1: Fears have been raised that new fines and taxes for

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Speaker 1: tech giants could be regarded as extortion by Donald Trump.

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Speaker 5: How unusual is it to have the US government intervene

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Speaker 5: publicly in Australian domestic legislation like this?

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Speaker 4: I mean, I'm not surprised on one level that the

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Speaker 4: Trump administration has intervened into this discussion. The e-safety regime

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Speaker 4: that we've had in place beforehand has also been criticised

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Speaker 4: by the Trump administration in some of the early executive orders. Clearly,

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Speaker 4: the United States understands the economic power of these large

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Speaker 4: platforms operating in different parts of the world, and there's

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Speaker 4: a clear alliance between big tech and the White House currently.

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Speaker 4: And that is manifesting in these kinds of discussions. We've

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Speaker 4: seen that in all sorts of contexts in relation to

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Speaker 4: the regulation of artificial intelligence, as well as social media platforms,

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Speaker 4: often which are the same companies, I should say. And

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Speaker 4: so I think there's a real sense that the White

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Speaker 4: House gets its support from large tech, that this is

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Speaker 4: the future of the American economy and American dominance and

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Speaker 4: American imperialism. And so a real concern around initiatives that

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Speaker 4: seek to undermine the effectiveness of that business model and

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Speaker 4: the domination of US tech platforms around the world. I

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Speaker 4: think the reality is that the government probably expected something

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Speaker 4: like this, but also that most Australians expect their lawmakers

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Speaker 4: to make policy and law that suits them. So I

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Speaker 4: think it is important that the Albanese government consider what

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Speaker 4: it is that Australians want when they use this technology.

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Speaker 4: and not just give in to diplomatic pressure from a

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Speaker 4: White House that I don't think many Australians trust as

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Speaker 4: a source of good policy.

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Speaker 5: And so if Australia did do what the US is

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Speaker 5: asking and exempted American companies, what would actually be left

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Speaker 5: of this law?

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Speaker 4: So there is a large number of companies that will

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Speaker 4: be affected by the digital duty of care, but I

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Speaker 4: think it's fair to say When we're talking about the

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Speaker 4: digital duty of care, most people are thinking about large

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Speaker 4: social media companies that provide services, including as accessed by children.

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Speaker 4: That's quite clearly the framing of the legislation and particularly

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Speaker 4: design features that we talked about before in terms of

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Speaker 4: making sure that they're managed effectively as a component of

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Speaker 4: the digital duty of care, but also giving people user

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Speaker 4: empowerment tools. they're really aimed at social media platforms. So

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Speaker 4: I think if those companies were excluded, which I think

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Speaker 4: would be unlikely at this point, given the politics of it,

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Speaker 4: but if they were, I think it would greatly diminish

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Speaker 4: the utility of this legislative initiative. And I think it

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Speaker 4: would be a huge scandal.

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Speaker 5: And the government, it now has all of these submissions.

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Speaker 5: So When we do finally see that bill, what will

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Speaker 5: you be looking at to tell whether or not it

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Speaker 5: will be effective and whether pressure from the US and

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Speaker 5: tech companies has actually weakened it?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so what I'll be looking for when this bill

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Speaker 4: is ultimately tabled is I'd love to see some statements

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Speaker 4: in what we call the extraneous materials, like the second

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Speaker 4: reading speech, the explanatory memorandum, that talk about rights, like

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Speaker 4: I mentioned before, like freedom of expression, freedom of the

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Speaker 4: press and the like. so that that can be balanced

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Speaker 4: as people who will have to interpret this legislation do

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Speaker 4: that work. I would really love to see some greater

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Speaker 4: consideration of how we can enforce this without putting too

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Speaker 4: much onus on the regulator and give courts a role.

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Speaker 4: I actually think courts have a really important job in

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Speaker 4: interpreting exactly some of the questions that we were talking

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Speaker 4: about before, how rights intersect with each other, but also

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Speaker 4: what might be considered harmful, how that reflects social values.

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Speaker 4: Courts are well placed to do that over time as

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Speaker 4: opposed to legislation which is enshrined in a particular moment.

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Speaker 4: And so I think if we start to see some

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Speaker 4: of those things implemented into the bill, then we'll know

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Speaker 4: that the government has decided that this is important enough,

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Speaker 4: I think, to risk the ire of the White House,

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Speaker 4: which I'm sure will still object, and really decide to

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Speaker 4: make a policy stand that many people have been campaigning

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Speaker 4: for for a long time and also many people expect

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Speaker 4: in the electorate. And this is going to be a

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Speaker 4: critical test for the government.

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Speaker 5: Lizzie, thank you so much for your time.

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Speaker 4: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: Also in the news, the imam of a Melbourne mosque,

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Speaker 2: which has been linked to the pilot accused of trying

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Speaker 2: to hijack a FlyJubilee plane, has spoken out for the

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Speaker 2: first time. Referring to false allegations, Samir Matadi didn't directly

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Speaker 2: address the claims, but in a video posted on social

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Speaker 2: media said, the righteous will always be attacked. It's after

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Speaker 2: the United Arab Emirates Attorney General claimed the pilot had

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Speaker 2: started to drift towards extremism while studying in Melbourne and

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Speaker 2: became acquainted with people linked to the Broadmeadows Mosque. And

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Speaker 2: Barnaby Joyce has joined the Greens in calling for the

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Speaker 2: government to block Australians from watching the live stream execution

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Speaker 2: of a US prisoner. The former US Major, who fatally

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Speaker 2: shot 13 unarmed soldiers in 2009, is set to be

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Speaker 2: executed by firing squad in the US in December. Joyce

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Speaker 2: likened the execution to a Roman amphitheatre, saying he doesn't

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Speaker 2: agree with it. I'm Daniel James, thanks for listening to 7am.

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Speaker 2: We'll be back tomorrow.

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Speaker 4: Music you