Speaker 1: Small businesses now. They are the backbone of our country
Speaker 1: and I know firsthand how tough it is. Long hours,
Speaker 1: constant hurdles, and too often feeling like you're in it alone.
Speaker 1: And what I keep hearing from you is that small
Speaker 1: business owners don't feel heard. My team and I are
Speaker 1: paying close attention to our small business community and the
Speaker 1: feedback that comes to us through the Mental podcast. Now,
Speaker 1: one thing is clear. You want to hear from more
Speaker 1: businesses beyond Sydney, from across the country, and especially those
Speaker 1: that are doing it tough. That's why my team and
Speaker 1: I are launching the Small Business call Out. The Small
Speaker 1: Business call Out, which will be under the Mental Channel,
Speaker 1: will talk to business owners all over the country every
Speaker 1: single week, no matter where you are. We want to
Speaker 1: hear from you. What's working, what's not working, What do
Speaker 1: you need from the government to actually succeed? What other
Speaker 1: things can you enlighten us about what it's like being
Speaker 1: in the small business community. This is your chance to
Speaker 1: make your voice count. We want to hear from all industries,
Speaker 1: from those struggling, from those who feel overlooked, or those
Speaker 1: who have something to say but haven't had the platform
Speaker 1: to say it. I'm going to continue hosting the Mental podcast,
Speaker 1: but the Small Business call Out will be uploaded between episodes.
Speaker 1: So let's get into this week's edition of the new
Speaker 1: Small Business call Out. What's the name of your business
Speaker 1: and in simple terms, what does your business do?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, the name of our business is Boxes for
Speaker 2: Business in a simplest form, we do things like packaging
Speaker 2: supplies and cardboard boxes. Basically, we make life easier for
Speaker 2: businesses by providing the cardboard boxes and packaging they need
Speaker 2: to peckt to a store and shift their goods. And
Speaker 2: we offer both new and second hand boxes which reduce
Speaker 2: waste and cut costs. And obviously all our boxes are
Speaker 2: eco friendly, so that means customers are not only protecting
Speaker 2: their goods but also protecting the planet.
Speaker 1: How's your business doing right now?
Speaker 2: Well, it's grown in recent years. We did start out
Speaker 2: selling secondhand boxes, which is reuse of boxes, giving secondhand
Speaker 2: boxes the second life and keeping them in circulation and
Speaker 2: out of landfill, and that's more prominent these days than
Speaker 2: it was in the past. But basically, cardboard itself is
Speaker 2: eco friendly because it's recyclable, it's highegradable, it's made from
Speaker 2: renewable resources and stuff like that, so it's all eco
Speaker 2: friendly cardboard boxes.
Speaker 1: Where was your business founded and where is it located?
Speaker 2: Well, Boxes for Business started back in nineteen ninety two
Speaker 2: on the north shore of Sydney. It was basically a
Speaker 2: home business at the time and it was about selling
Speaker 2: secondhand cardboard boxes out of the back of an old
Speaker 2: Dodge truck. And you know, as demand grew, you know,
Speaker 2: the business group, we moved to an old chuck shed
Speaker 2: in Oxford Falls and then you know, various other locations
Speaker 2: around Sydney after that where we've settled until we settled
Speaker 2: in Pendle Hill where we are now, which is kind
Speaker 2: of near Paramatta, which is I guess is the geographical
Speaker 2: center of Sydney, so we've got easy access to businesses
Speaker 2: across the city.
Speaker 1: And what inspired you to start your business?
Speaker 2: Well, I've always had a you know, an interest, a
Speaker 2: passion for small business and entrepreneurship, and even as a
Speaker 2: young kid I used to knock on doors of the
Speaker 2: neighbors and say can I rake your leaves or can
Speaker 2: I put your bin out or whatever? Or for money
Speaker 2: of course, and then I've had you been involved and
Speaker 2: run different businesses over the years. I had a window
Speaker 2: cleaning business and also a sign writing business. And that
Speaker 2: was back in the days when you know, signs were
Speaker 2: painted by hand and I had clients like Honda and
Speaker 2: you know, Votaphone and stuff like that. Then you know,
Speaker 2: technology changed and you know, things evolved, and I moved on.
Speaker 2: I ended up getting a job in a cardboard box
Speaker 2: and packaging come so I actually, you know, I was
Speaker 2: working there as general manager and I actually took over
Speaker 2: the business rather than starting it. And since then, I've
Speaker 2: you know, I've worked in guts out to you know,
Speaker 2: try and make it into something that I'm quite proud
Speaker 2: of where it is today. So we're based in Penderbille.
Speaker 1: You know where's the most rewarding part of being a
Speaker 1: small business owner?
Speaker 2: Well, there's a lot of things that are rewarding. I mean,
Speaker 2: I guess, as I said earlier, like it must be
Speaker 2: part of my DNA. I've always wanted to own and
Speaker 2: run my own business and I don't really know why,
Speaker 2: but here I am. But you know, there's lots of
Speaker 2: areas of reward. I mean, I guess I went into
Speaker 2: business initially thinking that, you know, I can be the
Speaker 2: master of my own destiny and at least has the
Speaker 2: illusion of that for a period of time. But even
Speaker 2: things like you know, being able to set my own
Speaker 2: goals and you know, work towards them, just on a
Speaker 2: more general level, I actually enjoy, you know, providing people
Speaker 2: jobs and you know, looking after employees and looking after
Speaker 2: customers and providing great service. For me, part of it
Speaker 2: is about It's not all about making money. It's integrity
Speaker 2: and making sure I do the right thing by people.
Speaker 2: We have signs up in our posters in our office
Speaker 2: which say things like, you know, smile or you know,
Speaker 2: treat others as you want them to treat you, or
Speaker 2: do what we say we're going to do. So they're
Speaker 2: not just words on the wall. That's how we try
Speaker 2: and do business every day, because I've come across businesses
Speaker 2: that you know, try and cut corners or try and
Speaker 2: you know, over promise or even cheat their customers, and
Speaker 2: it doesn't pay off from the long ones. So I guess,
Speaker 2: you know, I get a lot of satisfaction and pride
Speaker 2: from knowing that we've done our best to look after
Speaker 2: our customers and our employees. I mean, even when it
Speaker 2: comes to boxes, you know, as I mentioned earlier, I'm
Speaker 2: proud of the fact that we're involved and contributes to sustainability,
Speaker 2: but also the boxes part themselves. I get a kick
Speaker 2: out of seeing all the different purposes and uses that
Speaker 2: people use boxes for. I mean back in the day,
Speaker 2: we even supplied boxes for Celebrity Apprentice when Mark Boris
Speaker 2: was you know, at the realm, and so I think
Speaker 2: the producers wanted boxes to put in and container to
Speaker 2: make sure it was full. So there's a lot of
Speaker 2: different rewards for running a small business.
Speaker 1: What challenges have you faced as a small business owner
Speaker 1: and how do they impact your business and how did
Speaker 1: you overcome them?
Speaker 2: Well, it's up and down to you the truth. There's
Speaker 2: periods of struggle, then there's periods of success and stuff
Speaker 2: like that. When running a business sometimes feels a bit
Speaker 2: like you're one of those inflatable punching clowns that you know,
Speaker 2: you punch it and it falls down, then it pops
Speaker 2: back up. So sometimes things come out of the blue
Speaker 2: curbles that knock you back down again, even when you
Speaker 2: think you're standing still. So there's a lot of challenges
Speaker 2: involved in small business. So you know, things like cash flow,
Speaker 2: you know, getting money in you when sales dip or
Speaker 2: when customers don't pay on time, and I've often had
Speaker 2: to put my own money in to keep the business going,
Speaker 2: to pay the employees, to pay someone my own bills.
Speaker 2: And I know that's not just me, these other business
Speaker 2: owners that I speak to that are doing the same thing.
Speaker 2: There's also challenges with things like equipment and vehicle breakdowns
Speaker 2: where you know, just the other week, my main forklift
Speaker 2: broke down the middle of the driveway, blocking everything, and
Speaker 2: we did our best to sort it out, but I
Speaker 2: couldn't because I didn't realize when I went into business
Speaker 2: how much of a maintenance guy i'd have to be
Speaker 2: sometimes and that's not really my greatest strength. But more recently,
Speaker 2: one of the things that's been on my mind is
Speaker 2: workplace reforms that the government's introducing, and I'm not real
Speaker 2: happy about some of them, and I feel it's a
Speaker 2: bit imbalanced and you know, doesn't address some of the
Speaker 2: problems that small business owners have.
Speaker 1: What is the one thing you wish you knew before
Speaker 1: you even started your business.
Speaker 2: Well, there's a lot of sacrifices that I've made personally,
Speaker 2: and a lot of other small businesses I know because
Speaker 2: they're my main customer base. Other small businesses and I
Speaker 2: talk to them regularly, but things like you know, working
Speaker 2: late nights, you know, skipping breaks, for going annual leave
Speaker 2: or sick leave or things like that, or injecting my
Speaker 2: own money into the business to keep it going and
Speaker 2: stuff like that. There's a lot of sacrifices. In fact
Speaker 2: that there's a joke amongst some of us business owners
Speaker 2: which is the only legal way to earn less than
Speaker 2: the award rate is to work for yourself. Every other
Speaker 2: way it's illegal. But basically, you know, running a business
Speaker 2: is not easy. And someone once told me the three
Speaker 2: rules of business success, and they were number one, persist,
Speaker 2: number two persist, and number three persist. So basically, overcoming
Speaker 2: challenges is a lot to do with persistence and perseverance.
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously there's other factors as well, getting the
Speaker 2: right advice, surrounding yourself with the right people, all that
Speaker 2: sort of thing. But overcoming challenges, it's just like that
Speaker 2: clown that I said, you know, popping back up again
Speaker 2: when you get knocked down. That's a big part of
Speaker 2: what we do.
Speaker 1: You know, how confident are you in this train and
Speaker 1: gup ability to support small businesses effectively.
Speaker 2: Indigate that I'm not very confident at all. You know,
Speaker 2: I look up some of the stats, and you know,
Speaker 2: I've taken it upon myself to write to a number
Speaker 2: of politicians and not just you know, one party, like
Speaker 2: across the spectrum sort of thing, Labor, liberal, Independence, whoever,
Speaker 2: whoever will listen. But you know, on the last budget,
Speaker 2: the twenty twenty four to twenty twenty five budget, the
Speaker 2: government's put out a small business statement and it says
Speaker 2: they're delivering a better deal for small businesses. Now, when
Speaker 2: I look at the figures, there's an organization called the
Speaker 2: Australians Small Business and Family Enterprise Organization, and they've got
Speaker 2: extensive documents, and in their documents it says things like,
Speaker 2: at the moment, forty six percent of small businesses are
Speaker 2: not making a profit and up to seventy five percent
Speaker 2: of small business owners are earning less than the average
Speaker 2: adult wage, and that's despite working longer hours than the
Speaker 2: average employee. So that doesn't sound like delivering a better
Speaker 2: deal to me. And then on top of that, there's
Speaker 2: things like, sorry, there's things like the cost of living,
Speaker 2: which drives up business costs. You know, electricity insurance, you know,
Speaker 2: rent to all those sort of things. And then there's
Speaker 2: workplace reforms, which I touched on before, which you know,
Speaker 2: add more compliance, layers of compliance and stuff like that,
Speaker 2: and just make doing business harder rather than simpler. So
Speaker 2: I'm not very confident in the government, you know, supporting businesses.
Speaker 2: As I said, I've written to plenty of a number
Speaker 2: of employee Sorry, no, what do you call politicians and
Speaker 2: stuff like that. And one of the documents I sent
Speaker 2: them was I sent you guys, was this document. It's
Speaker 2: quite extensive. It didn't start out, you know, that wasn't
Speaker 2: that's evolved into that. But I found that some politicians
Speaker 2: don't even bother to get back to you, not even
Speaker 2: to say, you know, thanks for your correspondence and stuff
Speaker 2: like that. Some did reply, which I appreciate. It's always
Speaker 2: good to hear back from various politicians. I had method
Speaker 2: in my madness where I sort of tried to send
Speaker 2: things to politicians that I thought were responsible for different
Speaker 2: issues and you know, or had been involved at one
Speaker 2: point in time. But sometimes the responses I've got, you know,
Speaker 2: there was long delays, or it was a limited response.
Speaker 2: Sometimes it was just copy and paste from for example,
Speaker 2: that document the small Business statement, and it didn't really
Speaker 2: address the specifics concerns that I'd raised, And that's one
Speaker 2: of my concerns, Like you hear a lot about small business,
Speaker 2: and you hear a lot about, you know, at least
Speaker 2: with workplace, protecting employees rights and stuff like that. And
Speaker 2: just to make it clear, I'm or for protecting employees' rights,
Speaker 2: and I don't think people should be mistreated. But I
Speaker 2: think it's out of kilter, it's out of balance, and
Speaker 2: the focus tends to be more on how we're going
Speaker 2: to help employees and protect them, and that begs the
Speaker 2: question who are you protecting them from? You must be
Speaker 2: protecting them from employers, small business owners, they must be
Speaker 2: the bad guys. And that's the mess, the narrative that's
Speaker 2: going out there, and I'm sick of that because you know,
Speaker 2: I provide employment like many other small businesses, I provide
Speaker 2: services and goods to the community and stuff like that
Speaker 2: which are beneficial. So I think the government is overlooking
Speaker 2: the whole range of issues because if small business owners
Speaker 2: don't speak up, no one's going to do it on
Speaker 2: their behalf. Like I used to sit back and do
Speaker 2: nothing like many small business owners do, and think that
Speaker 2: it was all going to sort itself out in the
Speaker 2: wash and there'd be some common sense and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: But I realized, I'm not saying politicians are bad or whatever,
Speaker 2: just sometimes I don't think they understand, you know, some
Speaker 2: of the issues related to small business. They've not had
Speaker 2: any real world experience and running a business, and yet
Speaker 2: they're making decisions about it, and I don't think that's
Speaker 2: a good thing. I was told, you know, in one
Speaker 2: response by politician, that they've had extensive consultation with employer
Speaker 2: groups about some of the reforms that have introduced. But
Speaker 2: you articles I read online and even you know what
Speaker 2: I heard on Q and A back in May last year,
Speaker 2: said that there wasn't proper consultation, you know. So it's
Speaker 2: kind of hard to know what to believe sometimes. But
Speaker 2: it's interesting you asked about raising voices because when I
Speaker 2: was thinking about this interview, I remembered a movie I
Speaker 2: used to watch with I've got three daughters, and when
Speaker 2: they were young girls, they used to love Legally Blonde
Speaker 2: with Reese Witherspoon, and there's Legally Blonde one and Legally
Speaker 2: Blonde two, and she's like a blonde lawyer and stuff
Speaker 2: like that. And she's standing up in front of Congress
Speaker 2: and legally blonde too, and she uses a haircut as
Speaker 2: a metaphor for speaking to the government. And she goes
Speaker 2: on to tell a story about how, you know, she
Speaker 2: booked an appointment at it exclusive so long, and you know,
Speaker 2: she was really excited about it, and she turned up
Speaker 2: and she sat in the chair and was waiting for
Speaker 2: the things to be done. And then the colorist proceeded
Speaker 2: to put the wrong color in the hair, and then
Speaker 2: after that, the shampoo girl washed the hair with the
Speaker 2: wrong shampoo. I guess it wasn't designed for colored hair
Speaker 2: or whatever. But then she said the stylist a bob
Speaker 2: with bangs, which she said was all wrong for her.
Speaker 2: And she said her initial reaction was to feel anger,
Speaker 2: but then she realized that her anger was misdirected because
Speaker 2: she just sat there and let it all happen. She
Speaker 2: said she'd forgot to use her voice, and so she's
Speaker 2: encouraging people to use their voice, you know. And that's
Speaker 2: what I'd encourage all small business owners do, to speak
Speaker 2: up about their concerns. It might not be exactly the
Speaker 2: same as mine, but I know there are some common ones.
Speaker 2: You know, small businesses are struggling in a number of areas,
Speaker 2: and I think small business owners should speak otherwise, you know,
Speaker 2: to put it in el Wood's words, small businesses in
Speaker 2: this country is in for a really bad haircut. So
Speaker 2: that's how I put it.
Speaker 1: If you could advise Australian governor on one action to
Speaker 1: take to better support small businesses, what would it be.
Speaker 2: I've been on a journey, as I said, I've been
Speaker 2: writing to various politicians. I appeared like just to ask
Speaker 2: a question at the opportunity to appear on Q and
Speaker 2: A or ABS to just ask, you know. Firstly asked
Speaker 2: the minister who was the Minister for Employment Workplace Relations
Speaker 2: at the time Tony worked. I asked him a question
Speaker 2: about how they're going to support small businesses and make
Speaker 2: sure that the policies they introduce support not only the
Speaker 2: workers but also the small businesses that employed them. I
Speaker 2: didn't really get the response that I'd hoped for. You know.
Speaker 2: I gave an example about the right to disconnect and
Speaker 2: how you know that is all about protecting employees, you know,
Speaker 2: personal time outside of work hours, which is fair enough,
Speaker 2: but it doesn't address all the personal stuff that employees
Speaker 2: sometimes do during work time, you know, which kind of
Speaker 2: balances the equation out and the employee. The minister really basically,
Speaker 2: you know, misrepresented the situation. Whether he just used poor
Speaker 2: words or whatever, I'm not sure. But if there was
Speaker 2: one thing I'd say to politicians, and the opportunity to
Speaker 2: pier a second time. When Q and A back in
Speaker 2: November and I said, I think you should listen and
Speaker 2: address business concerns, and I go, you know, that was
Speaker 2: not long after the US election, and I said, you know,
Speaker 2: part of the reason some of the commentators thought Trump
Speaker 2: won is because he had appealed to the working class
Speaker 2: people who felt ignored when they raised their concerns. And
Speaker 2: I've felt the same when I've raised concerns was various politicians.
Speaker 2: They sometimes don't get back to you, or they don't
Speaker 2: answer your specific concerns, or they give a limited response
Speaker 2: or copy and paste, you know, and stuff like that. So,
Speaker 2: for example, one of the things that I'm concerned about
Speaker 2: is payday super where you know, employees will be required
Speaker 2: to pay super to employees every payday. And you know
Speaker 2: that's obviously to help employees make sure that they don't
Speaker 2: miss out on any stupor and to bolce to their
Speaker 2: retirement funds and things like that. It's all very well,
Speaker 2: but it doesn't address the cash flow challenges of small
Speaker 2: businesses who often have credit terms or you know, you know,
Speaker 2: customs haven't paid on time. So it's basically we've got
Speaker 2: to pay money out more often when it hasn't actually
Speaker 2: come in sometimes and when I've tried to ask politicians,
Speaker 2: you know, how they're addressing that, they've sid skepped it.
Speaker 2: And one of the things I've done is I've sent
Speaker 2: you guys a box. But it was a little box,
Speaker 2: and I had a label on the side that said
Speaker 2: Pandora's Box. And basically that was like a symbolic gesture
Speaker 2: to say, hey, this is how some politicians are treating
Speaker 2: these issues, is that they don't want to open it
Speaker 2: because they think it's like Pandora's box. Even things like
Speaker 2: wages there for example, And it's the imbalance that I'm
Speaker 2: more concerned about, Like they're targeting, you know, employees who
Speaker 2: aren't paying their employees deliberately, and that is wrong, you know.
Speaker 2: But on the other hand, they're not targeting the wages
Speaker 2: theft of employees when they deliberately chuck a city, or
Speaker 2: do personal stuff during work hours. I've even heard on
Speaker 2: the radio where people are bringing in and they're saying, oh,
Speaker 2: you know, I told my boss I was in a meeting,
Speaker 2: but I went for a swim, or I played gold
Speaker 2: for I did this, and that that's just as much
Speaker 2: rageous theft as a boss, you know, not paying their
Speaker 2: employee properly. And I decided to check out the figures
Speaker 2: for this sort of thing, and I discovered that the
Speaker 2: figures related to unjustified absentees and you know, with checking
Speaker 2: sickies and you know, doing personal stuff during unapproved personal
Speaker 2: stuff during business hours was actually higher and at the
Speaker 2: very best equal to the amount that you know was
Speaker 2: employers weren't paying employees. So if it's more, why isn't
Speaker 2: the government paying attention, that's affecting the economy, it's affecting
Speaker 2: small business owners, it's affecting other employers. So I guess
Speaker 2: i'd say, you know, sorry, it's been a long answer,
Speaker 2: But to go back to question again, I'd ask politicians
Speaker 2: to bring balance to the situations, to balance the situation
Speaker 2: between both employees and employers. Because some of the organizations
Speaker 2: that are responsible for dealing with this. The course themselves
Speaker 2: called fair Work. So to me, fair is a two
Speaker 2: way street, you know, it's not one sided. And I
Speaker 2: read a report recently on the what's called the Secure
Speaker 2: Job is Better Paybill, and there was findings that are
Speaker 2: viewed with findings, and one of the findings was that
Speaker 2: Australia has an adversarial industrial relations system and it said
Speaker 2: where you know, business groups and unions are often fighting
Speaker 2: over various workplace rules and regulations and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: But I think the government actually contributes to that by
Speaker 2: not having a balanced approach to the situation. As we
Speaker 2: said at the beginning, it's also important to speak to
Speaker 2: other small business owners because we share common struggles sometimes
Speaker 2: or we share common goals and stuff like that, and
Speaker 2: by working together, I think we can achieve more. So
Speaker 2: it's not just about speaking up, it's also about multiple
Speaker 2: people speaking up because I found, you know, I'm just
Speaker 2: one guy, you know, you know, as I said on
Speaker 2: Q and A once, I'm just a regular guy trying
Speaker 2: to have a go, you know, and I'm I'm not
Speaker 2: used to being on TV or doing interviews or whatever.
Speaker 2: And sometimes that's easy for the government to ignore. That's
Speaker 2: one of the reasons why I spoke to the New
Speaker 2: South Wales Small Business Chamber because they carry more weight
Speaker 2: than you know, for example, someone like me. But I
Speaker 2: also wanted to go on Q and A, you know,
Speaker 2: to use that platform, you know, to raise awareness of
Speaker 2: some of these issues. And I'd encourage other people to
Speaker 2: write to you know, their local member or to write
Speaker 2: to a particular minister that's involved with a certain aspect
Speaker 2: of small business and stuff like that, because you know,
Speaker 2: it's important and as I said, you know, getting help
Speaker 2: when you need it. The Australian Small Business and Family
Speaker 2: Enterprise Organization they sent me some various links to various
Speaker 2: information so that at least you're more knowledgeable about what
Speaker 2: to do and what not to do and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: And even organizations like Business New South Wales like they
Speaker 2: send circulars out sometimes newsletters, and sometimes I read them
Speaker 2: and I discover something I wasn't a previously and that
Speaker 2: helps me, you know, change the way I do things
Speaker 2: or do things better.
Speaker 1: What is the one thing you wish more people knew
Speaker 1: about your business?
Speaker 2: Well, I guess I just wish more people knew about
Speaker 2: my business. And you know the way that we help
Speaker 2: businesses run smoothly, but with the eco friendly cardboard boxes
Speaker 2: and handy packaging suppliers that we offer. I mean, we've
Speaker 2: got an easy online ordering system to make it simplify
Speaker 2: the process. And our aim is to grow our business
Speaker 2: and to reach more businesses and to expand our product
Speaker 2: range and make it as easy as possible for businesses
Speaker 2: to get the boxes and the packaging they need. You know,
Speaker 2: I'm also proud of the fact that, you know, we
Speaker 2: contribute to sustainability and you know, help raise awareness of
Speaker 2: the environment and those kinds of issues because we provide
Speaker 2: practical solutions for businesses. So we're not only helping them
Speaker 2: protect their goods, we're helping them, you know, support the
Speaker 2: environment and stuff like that, which is a worthy cause.
Speaker 1: Let us know where can people find you and your business?
Speaker 2: Yep, Well, we're trying to strengthen our online presence. That's
Speaker 2: one of the goals for this year. So people can
Speaker 2: find us at our website, which is Boxes for Business
Speaker 2: dot com dot Au so it's b O X f
Speaker 2: O R b U s I n ews dot com
Speaker 2: dot Au. But also on our socials and you can
Speaker 2: access our socials through our website, you know, Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram.
Speaker 2: One of the things on our agenda this year is
Speaker 2: we're almost there, but we're releasing a number of promotional
Speaker 2: videos and things like that to promote things that we
Speaker 2: do and answer frequently asked questions and things like that.
Speaker 2: So I guess I'm saying watch this space. If you do,
Speaker 2: go on to the socials. But a lot of people,
Speaker 2: you know, we supply the cordboard boxes and packaging supplies online,
Speaker 2: so people can go online and have a look and
Speaker 2: see whether we've got the sort of things that they needs.
Speaker 2: Don't don't do