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Speaker 1: I'm Robert F. Kennedy Junior.

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Speaker 2: I'm a Robert F.

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Speaker 3: Kennedy Jr. Who swears solidly spare that I will support

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Speaker 3: an event that I will support and defend Constitution the Constitution.

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Speaker 1: When Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Was sworn in his Health

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Speaker 1: and Human Services Secretary, it made official one of President

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Speaker 1: Trump's most controversial appointments. His confirmation came off the back

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Speaker 1: of a fiery questioning for Democrats and Republicans alike about

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Speaker 1: RFK Junior's record on vaccines.

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Speaker 2: Kennedy, you have spent years pushing conflicting stories about vaccines.

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Speaker 1: And under oath, RFK denied he was against them.

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Speaker 4: We need a move.

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Speaker 3: I support the measles vaccine. I support the polly of vaccine.

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Speaker 3: I will do nothing as AHH as secretary that makes

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Speaker 3: them difficult or discourages people from taking.

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Speaker 2: Any anybody who believe.

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Speaker 1: But since then, Kennedy has moved to do exactly what

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Speaker 1: he promised not to. Investigation claims. You consider scrapping the

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Speaker 1: entire childhood vaccine schedule, discussed removing polio in MMR vaccines,

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Speaker 1: and proposed spending five billion dollars investigating the disproven link

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Speaker 1: between vaccines and autism. I'm Daniel James, and you're listening

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Speaker 1: to seven AM. Today. We're bringing you an episode first

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Speaker 1: published in February last year, just days after Kennedy was

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Speaker 1: confirmed as Health Secretary. In Ruby, Jones speaks to investigative

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Speaker 1: journalist Brian Deer about Kennedy's two decade anti vaccine campaign

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Speaker 1: and what Idea thinks he's the most prominent anti vaccine

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Speaker 1: campaigner in the world. It's Sunday, July twenty six. This

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Speaker 1: episode was originally published in February twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 5: So, Brian, for many of us, the first time that

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Speaker 5: we heard of RFK was his failed presidential run, and then,

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Speaker 5: of course last year he was chosen as Trump's pick

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Speaker 5: for Health secretary. But you have been reporting on the

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Speaker 5: anti vaccine movement for more than two decades. So when

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Speaker 5: did you first become aware of him?

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Speaker 4: Well, I first got wise to him twenty years ago,

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Speaker 4: this July coming up, when he suddenly popped up in

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Speaker 4: American magazines trying to demonstrate the link between vaccines and autism.

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Speaker 4: So he's been at it now for twenty years. Solid

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Speaker 4: He's not a particularly good campaigner, but he's got that

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Speaker 4: magical name Kennedy, which plays so well in the United States.

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Speaker 4: With his help, many causes have been brought to the

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Speaker 4: forefront of publica Whens and his family's connections mean he

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Speaker 4: has access to the highest levels of US government. So

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Speaker 4: mister Kennedy, he's a product liability lawyer. What he tries

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Speaker 4: to do is to get lawsuits going.

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Speaker 6: He made millions of dollars. Most of it was from

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Speaker 6: his own law firm. He made about nine million dollars there.

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Speaker 6: He also made money off book publishing.

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Speaker 4: People would be attracted by the campaigner and then moved

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Speaker 4: over to the product liability lawsuits.

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Speaker 6: He gets these referral fees, sending essentially plaintiffs people families

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Speaker 6: to other law firms, and he refers them so that

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Speaker 6: they can sue on the grounds of say a vaccine lawsuit.

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Speaker 4: That's what he does. He sues people because one of

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Speaker 4: the things about vaccine scares that people probably don't realize

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Speaker 4: is that they begin as lawsuits and they're very, very

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Speaker 4: lucrative for the lawyers who drive them.

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Speaker 5: So he's experienced it campaigning against vaccines, and in twenty

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Speaker 5: nineteen that took him and you to the Pacific Island

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Speaker 5: of Samoa. Can you tell me what the situation was

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Speaker 5: like there when you arrived.

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Speaker 4: Well, I arrived in December twenty nineteen in the middle

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Speaker 4: of an outbreak of measles which were was absolutely appalling

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Speaker 4: in its extent. Eighty three people died, overwhelmingly children. In fact,

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Speaker 4: on the day I arrived, the tally was forty eight

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Speaker 4: children dead. That was children aged four or under, and

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Speaker 4: it was raging through the island and stopped.

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Speaker 7: The streets of Samoa eerily quiet as the country deals

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Speaker 7: with the fall out of an outbreak of measles that

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Speaker 7: has claimed the lives of dozens.

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Speaker 4: Arriving at the airport, there were emergency supplies being brought in.

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Speaker 4: Ventilators because you need special small sized ventilators for children,

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Speaker 4: were being hauled in from different parts of the world.

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Speaker 4: And I set off talking to mothers who'd lost their children,

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Speaker 4: and it was a really, really, quite a striking experience,

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Speaker 4: so I can tell you. I remember it was in

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Speaker 4: the wet season and there was rain just hammering on

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Speaker 4: the roof in open fronted housing, and the the mother

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Speaker 4: took me through how she had been finally told that

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Speaker 4: her daughter had died. She was under two years old.

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Speaker 4: The body was presented to her in a blanket, and

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Speaker 4: they took her home in the back of the car

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Speaker 4: and dug a hole by the kitchen door and buried

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Speaker 4: her there and put concrete over. And it was almost

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Speaker 4: Christmas and they put fairy lights up. One mother she

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Speaker 4: lost three children to me, three children. Even there, it

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Speaker 4: comes back to me like these years later, I mean

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Speaker 4: to experience that where they were holding group funerals, they

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Speaker 4: were ordering special small sized coffins, and they were having

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Speaker 4: funerals going on, big traditional funerals going on every day

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Speaker 4: of the week during that period.

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Speaker 5: Okay, that must have been very confronting. Explain a bit

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Speaker 5: about why the community there was so vulnerable to this

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Speaker 5: outbreak and how rfk JR was connected.

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Speaker 4: What had happened was the year before, two nurses on

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Speaker 4: one of the islands in a remote hospital had wrongly

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Speaker 4: mixed a muscle relaxed and into the measles mushrou bella

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Speaker 4: MMR vaccine. It was a terrible mistake and within a

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Speaker 4: matter of hours they killed two children by accident. As

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Speaker 4: a result of the incident with the nurses, vaccination rates

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Speaker 4: had fallen to a very low level, so you had

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Speaker 4: a very very vulnerable community, and so anti vaccine campaigners

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Speaker 4: kind of turned up, almost like tornado chasers. They kind

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Speaker 4: of wanted to be in on the action.

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Speaker 8: Communication minister, who's also the government spokesman of a Massaga

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Speaker 8: Rico two Pints, says that the work of anti vaxxines

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Speaker 8: is hampering their efforts to everyone immunized.

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Speaker 4: Conspiracy theorists online were trying to suggest there was something

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Speaker 4: wrong with MMR and we're campaigning.

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Speaker 1: Unfortunately this anti vax people all leave overseas, but they're

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Speaker 1: using social media.

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Speaker 3: To influence the community, that influence our populations.

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Speaker 9: What can government do?

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Speaker 4: Then, mister Kennedy had turned up, so he.

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Speaker 5: Turned up in somewhere. He was actually there.

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Speaker 4: He actually turned up on the islands, Yeah, and met

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Speaker 4: with anti vaccine campaigners and was photographed with them.

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Speaker 10: One News has learned of a high level anti vax

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Speaker 10: meeting organized in Somemore in June, just before this deadly

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Speaker 10: measles outbreak. A US embassy staff member facilitated a meeting

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Speaker 10: between vaccination critic Robert Kennedy Junior and Australian anti vax

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Speaker 10: blogger Taylor Winterstein. She'd been forced again.

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Speaker 4: So it's important to recognize that Somewhare is a small community.

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Speaker 4: There's two hundred thousand people. That's not a lot. So

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Speaker 4: when something appears on Facebook, an awful lot of people

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Speaker 4: see it. And mister Kennedy appears on Facebook suggesting that

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Speaker 4: vaccines are an issue, and the Prime Minister he kind

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Speaker 4: of got drawn into it because he had a close

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Speaker 4: family member who had some kind of developmental issue, and

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Speaker 4: I think he'd been led to believe that it might

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Speaker 4: have been caused by a vaccine. So he would have

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Speaker 4: been very easy prey really for someone turning up from

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Speaker 4: the United States apparently authoritatively telling him, oh, yes, well,

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Speaker 4: that could be a vaccine side effect.

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Speaker 11: A prominent American anti vax activist would later tell us

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Speaker 11: someone a newspaper that he had the Prime minister's air

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Speaker 11: on the issue, and that the Island Nations leader had

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Speaker 11: privately shared his doubts about the safety of immunizing the public.

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Speaker 11: That activist quote unquote, yes, that's Robert F.

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Speaker 1: Kennedy Junior.

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Speaker 4: He was trying to muscle his way into the thing.

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Speaker 4: And so mister Kennedy's appearance there was a news event,

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Speaker 4: and so that helped all the problem that they already had.

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Speaker 5: After the break. What RFK Junior says about his role

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Speaker 5: in the outbreak and how he stands to profit from

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Speaker 5: making America healthy again. Brian, we're talking about rfk's anti

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Speaker 5: vaccine campaigning in Samoa in twenty nineteen, which contributed to

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Speaker 5: low rates of vaccination in the country and eighty three people,

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Speaker 5: most of them babies, died. RFK was meeting with the

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Speaker 5: Prime Minister of Samoa to tell him that vaccines had

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Speaker 5: caused the outbreak. So tell me where this outbreak actually originated.

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Speaker 4: What we know is that the virus came from New Zealand.

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Speaker 4: Auckland that year was going through the biggest outbreak of

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Speaker 4: measles that it had in decades, and it was particularly

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Speaker 4: concentrated on the south side of Auckland, which has as

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Speaker 4: a substantial Marion Pacific Islander community, where vaccination rates had

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Speaker 4: fallen to very low levels. And goes back to the

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Speaker 4: appearance in Australia and New Zealand in twenty seventeen of

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Speaker 4: anti vaccine campaigners trying to promote a film by a

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Speaker 4: disgraced British doctor named Andrew Wakefield.

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Speaker 9: The film alleges a cover up of the claimed link

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Speaker 9: between them vaccine and autism. Both the link and the

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Speaker 9: film have been widely discredited, of course, but the film

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Speaker 9: was playing in.

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Speaker 4: They went to Australia and they went to New Zealand

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Speaker 4: with this film advertising these false allegations.

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Speaker 10: Here's what those attending a screening of vexed in the

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Speaker 10: Northland town of Mangitoto last night had to say to

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Speaker 10: our reporter Zach Fleming.

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Speaker 3: I've never seen any good science and good vaccines are

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Speaker 3: actually beneficial.

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Speaker 4: So there is a connection for the virus to come

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Speaker 4: through from Auckland to the Islands where it ultimately then

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Speaker 4: erupted in a vulnerable community.

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Speaker 5: And so Brennan the lead up to being confirmed RFK,

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Speaker 5: he was actually grilded a Senate hearing in the US

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Speaker 5: and he was asked about his role in the measles outbreak.

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Speaker 2: Mister Kennedy, you have spent years pushing conflicting stories about vaccines.

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Speaker 5: Can you tell me about that? And what he said?

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Speaker 2: So my question here is, mister Kennedy, is mevils deadly?

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Speaker 2: Yes or no?

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Speaker 3: You cannot find a single samoen will say I didn't

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Speaker 3: get a vaccine because of Bobby Kennedy. I went to

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Speaker 3: June of twenty.

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Speaker 4: Nine, he just shrugged it off and rejected it, saying

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Speaker 4: that nobody knew what was killing the children.

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Speaker 3: There eighty three people died when the tissue samples were

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Speaker 3: sent to New Zealand. Most of those people did not

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Speaker 3: have measles. We don't know what was killing them.

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Speaker 4: And I thought, well, that was a very strange thing

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Speaker 4: to say, because not only had there been samples taken

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Speaker 4: and tested, so they had that information, But when the

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Speaker 4: government had a two day lockdown where everybody was told

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Speaker 4: to stay home and vaccination teams cruised around the islands

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Speaker 4: offering shots to people. When that had all happened, the

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Speaker 4: outbreak went away and the children stopped dying. So how

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Speaker 4: mister Kennedy came to the conclusion that nobody knew what

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Speaker 4: the cause was I think was a very extraordinary But

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Speaker 4: then he is a great one for saying things that

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Speaker 4: don't check out.

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Speaker 5: And so vaccines aside, what do we know about rfk's

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Speaker 5: agenda to make America healthy again? What can we expect?

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Speaker 4: So Kennedy is talking now about making America healthy again

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Speaker 4: without often revealing that he's actually taken out a registration

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Speaker 4: on that expression, and I think he made an enormous

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Speaker 4: sum of money selling it to the anti vaccine campaigners.

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Speaker 3: President Trump is committed to restoring the American dream, and

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Speaker 3: seventy seven nine Americans delivered a mand aid to him

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Speaker 3: to do just that in part to the embraise and

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Speaker 3: elevation and have the make America Health and movement.

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Speaker 4: And he's talking about diabetes, starting wellness farms, getting everybody

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Speaker 4: to lose weight. But behind that is this anti vaccine

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Speaker 4: agenda which he is not going to give up on,

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Speaker 4: and he will have a very great deal of power

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Speaker 4: to intervene in that area, deciding which vaccine should move

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Speaker 4: from the recommended list to the essential list if you

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Speaker 4: like that. He can intervene in court cases, he can

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Speaker 4: intervene in in the advisory committees that make vaccine policy,

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Speaker 4: because he actually appoints most of the members of them,

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Speaker 4: and or he's already had his recommendations taken up in

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Speaker 4: some of the appointments that have been made to head

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Speaker 4: the federal agencies such as the National Institutes of Health

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Speaker 4: and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and such like.

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Speaker 4: So he's going to have a great deal of power

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Speaker 4: and the credibility that he will give to avoiding vaccination

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Speaker 4: for reasons that have not been established as valid, will

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Speaker 4: lead to a rise in susceptibility to vaccine, preventable illnesses,

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Speaker 4: outbreaks of disease, and it's very difficult to row these

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Speaker 4: things back.

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Speaker 5: Brian, thank you so much for talking to me.

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Speaker 4: Pleasure.

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Speaker 1: I'm Daniel James seven Am will be back tomorrow with

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Speaker 1: an interview with former Corner CEO Alan Joyce. After almost

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Speaker 1: fifteen years running the airline, he left at the height

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Speaker 1: of an extraordinary public backlash. Doug Australia's most hated man.

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Speaker 1: Now after years of silence, he's defending the controversial decisions

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Speaker 1: that defined his final years at Corners as tough but necessary.

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Speaker 1: We put those decisions in those choices to him.

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Speaker 7: You know, when you look back to the period when

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Speaker 7: the decision was made in twenty twenty, we were starting

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Speaker 7: at potentially the company gone background. We had to make

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Speaker 7: a whole series of decisions to make actually off to

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Speaker 7: ten thousand people redundant. I think around the world in

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Speaker 7: aviation and aviation related jobs, over two million people were

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Speaker 7: made redundant. It was the worst period in our history

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Speaker 7: and we were fighting for survival.

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Speaker 1: You believed it was the right call. But you're also

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Speaker 1: right that head quin Us known how quickly travel would return,

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Speaker 1: it might not have done it. Doesn't that suggest that

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Speaker 1: it was based on an assumption that turned out to

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Speaker 1: be wrong. So doesn't that mean it was the wrong call?

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Speaker 7: Well, I think you know, hindsight's great, Daniel, I say

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Speaker 7: in the book, you know, you make decisions in real

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Speaker 7: time and they're evaluated in hindsight, and I think that's

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Speaker 7: that's the reality of a lot of things we do

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Speaker 7: in life. Well, you, i'd actually to port yourself in

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Speaker 7: our position in the middle of twenty twenty when we

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Speaker 7: made these colds, and at the time, nobody knew there

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Speaker 7: was going to be a vaccine, nobody knew that there

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Speaker 7: was going to be a rapid rebound.

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Speaker 1: It'll be in your feet tomorrow. Thanks for listening.