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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, welcome to another edition of the podcast. Now

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Speaker 1: this one is a little bit different. Rather than me

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Speaker 1: interviewing somebody, this is my omate Harps interviewing me. You

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Speaker 1: may remember a couple of weeks ago I interviewed him

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Speaker 1: on what he's doing on his PhD, and this time

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Speaker 1: he is interviewing me on his podcast. And I thought

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Speaker 1: I would sure it because I've actually never talked about

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Speaker 1: it before on my podcast and realized that I've been

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Speaker 1: doing you guys at the service because I believe that

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Speaker 1: the stuff that I'm researching is the single psychological trait

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Speaker 1: that we all need.

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Speaker 2: So over the Craig.

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Speaker 3: Well, Tyler, welcome back to you project, your big stud

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Speaker 3: How are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm very good. Indeed, man, it's been a while. It's

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Speaker 1: been a while. That's because we're two very diligent, studious,

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Speaker 1: hard working PhD students trying to figure.

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Speaker 3: Out what the fuck we're doing. That is exactly right. Well,

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Speaker 3: maybe I'm just talking on behalf of myself.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you'd have seen me in the last

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Speaker 1: week and a half, you'd be saying exactly that.

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Speaker 2: What were you? Three weeks?

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Speaker 3: Give us the update? Now, everyone's sick of me and

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Speaker 3: my bullshit, Where are you up to with now? Of course,

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Speaker 3: Paul's got a master's in nutrition and a master's in

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Speaker 3: X FIZZ and you know a million other things. But

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Speaker 3: you're doing your PhD in psych What specifically is your research?

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Speaker 1: I am looking into resilience, and it's really it's kind

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Speaker 1: of doing a deep dive into hardiness and I'm looking

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Speaker 1: into a psychle biological or cycle physiological resilience. So not

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Speaker 1: just when you says on this, a lot of people

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Speaker 1: think about the psychology, but for me, it's a body.

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Speaker 2: Brand connection of us.

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Speaker 1: And then I'm now diving into the research around hardiness

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Speaker 1: and doing an intervention. Now I'm running my second study,

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Speaker 1: having published my first one a few months ago. So

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Speaker 1: the second study is on a bunch of corporates in

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Speaker 1: New Zealand, actually in christ Church, and so we have

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Speaker 1: a randomized control trial on this one. We got a

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Speaker 1: control group and then the other group have had a

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Speaker 1: full day workshop and then they have an eight week program.

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Speaker 1: We're looking at their levels of hardiness, which we can

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Speaker 1: get into that's a psychological mindset, I guess. We're also

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Speaker 1: looking at gratitude, We're looking at perceived stress, resilience and mood.

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Speaker 1: And from a physiology perspective, we are looking at their

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Speaker 1: heart rate variability, which we can get into that's a

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Speaker 1: kind of mark of the autonomic nervous system balance and

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Speaker 1: looking at physical activity and all those sorts of things.

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Speaker 3: Well, we'll do dive into the research and what you're

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Speaker 3: learning and heartiness broadly. But where are you at in

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Speaker 3: your in your pH D journey?

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Speaker 2: What are you up to? Like? What when did you start?

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Speaker 2: What year? Months give or tape fucking house, I can't

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Speaker 2: even remember.

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Speaker 3: So I had you've got to be You've got to

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Speaker 3: be a good three years in?

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Speaker 2: Aren't you not to this one?

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Speaker 4: To this?

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Speaker 1: Actually I am three years into this one now, yeah yeah,

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Speaker 1: yeah yeah. But I had started my PSC with donkeys ago.

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Speaker 1: I had started and I was looking at integrated well

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Speaker 1: being and then my PSC supervisor got very sick and

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Speaker 1: I ended up completely pivoting actually and starting again, having

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Speaker 1: having passed confirmation and got halfway through, I had bloody

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Speaker 1: start again.

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Speaker 2: So I've done confirmation twice, which is nice. That is confirmation.

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Speaker 3: Everyone just means basically where they go, all right, we're

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Speaker 3: not going to kick you out.

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Speaker 2: We're given a green light. You can continue, but.

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Speaker 5: It is I was trying to explain to somebody or

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Speaker 5: not right or not or not or not. I mean

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Speaker 5: generally it's a green, orange, or red, but you'd have

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Speaker 5: to be you'd have to have pretty much done nothing

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Speaker 5: for twelve months to get a red light and be

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Speaker 5: a complete fucking idiot.

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Speaker 2: But I was trying to explain to someone.

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Speaker 3: So different programs work differently, but with mine, there's there's

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Speaker 3: a six month one, then there's a confirmation, then there's

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Speaker 3: a mid can, then there's a final review. And I

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Speaker 3: had my final review. I told you last week, and

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Speaker 3: I was I've never been more nervous ever for a

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Speaker 3: presentation to fucking seven people. You could say you're talking

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Speaker 3: at rod Labor Arena tonight to ten thousand. I would

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Speaker 3: have been way less nervous than talking to seven people.

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Speaker 3: And really I was talking one because there's one person

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Speaker 3: who's the chair, who's essentially if we had to do

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Speaker 3: it an analogy, it would be the judge in the

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Speaker 3: court who decides whether or you're not you're going to

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Speaker 3: So you can either get kind of a green light

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Speaker 3: or an orange light, which says, you know years, but yeah,

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Speaker 3: you need to present this work within three months to

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Speaker 3: get the full tick, or you're out, which is unlikely,

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Speaker 3: or you've got to come back again and do all

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Speaker 3: that again. But and I fortunately got through. But I

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Speaker 3: was so fucking terrified, Pete. I slept for about and

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Speaker 3: I sleep like a fucking champion. I slept for seven

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Speaker 3: minutes the night before, and I jumped on a zoom

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Speaker 3: call at six point thirty the night before with my

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Speaker 3: senior supervisor, Chris, and with a guy who's helping me

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Speaker 3: with my stats, Campbell.

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Speaker 2: Shout out to Campbell.

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Speaker 3: And Chris's wife who's kind of been giving me a

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Speaker 3: bit of advice around status and status and analysis of

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Speaker 3: data and all that. But anyway, we got off at

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Speaker 3: quarter past twelve. Wow, jump and Jehovah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And so then I slept for rock solid seven minutes

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Speaker 3: and rocked up to my final thing. Anyway, it ain't

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Speaker 3: about me, But so what's your timeline? When do you reckon?

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Speaker 3: Hopefully you're going to be done well.

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Speaker 1: I'm hoping to get in just in time.

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Speaker 2: So I've got last weekend.

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Speaker 1: Actually know I've got a year left, you know, otherwise

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Speaker 1: you've got to get an extension. And I reckon, I

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Speaker 1: should be good, because mine is slightly different. I'm doing

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Speaker 1: a PSC by publication, so I've got to publish a

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Speaker 1: number of articles and make a meaningful contribution to the literature,

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Speaker 1: and then you just kind of write a thesis that

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Speaker 1: links them all. But it's it's it's nowhere near the

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Speaker 1: depth of the thesis that that you're doing this kind

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Speaker 1: of standard way where you do you know, anywhere between

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Speaker 1: a forty and an eighty thos and then you've got

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Speaker 1: to do a defense of your thesis and all that stuff.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, fuck all that, all right, So let's talk about hardiness.

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Speaker 3: And it's interesting because you and I chatted as because

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Speaker 3: you and I are huge on preparation, so we did

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Speaker 3: a solid forty five seconds earlier, so I don't want

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Speaker 3: the audience to think that we don't care or we're

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Speaker 3: not very well prepared. And we had a you know,

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Speaker 3: twenty seconds each about what we're each going to chat about,

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Speaker 3: and you said hardiness. And it's funny because that is

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Speaker 3: not a term that I use. Of course I know

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Speaker 3: what it means, but maybe I don't know what it means.

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Speaker 3: What does hardiness mean in scientific in psychology terms? Like

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Speaker 3: what are we talking about?

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Speaker 1: So it is a psychological disposition, and the sort of

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Speaker 1: researchers are ryan hardiness describe it as the courage to

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Speaker 1: grow from stress. So it's love it because it's kind

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Speaker 1: of much deeper than resilience. So resilience has got a

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Speaker 1: number of different academic definitions, but if you ask the

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Speaker 1: average man on the street or woman on the street,

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Speaker 1: they would say resilience is about bouncing back from stress

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Speaker 1: or trauma, whereas hardiness is deeper and it's more aligned

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Speaker 1: with growth, whether it's post traumatic growth or just growth

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Speaker 1: from stress. And it's that whole idea of you become

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Speaker 1: better because of exposure to stress, but it's also a

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Speaker 1: psychological disposition that enables that as well.

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Speaker 2: And so for me, I kind of use the term.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the term hardiness has been around for geez,

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Speaker 1: well over thirty years, and I first came across across

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Speaker 1: it fifteen years ago, talked about it and talks and

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Speaker 1: then kind of forgot about it and then sort of

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Speaker 1: rediscovered it reasonably recently. And it's quite a line with

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Speaker 1: mental toughness as well. So as you know, Craig, there

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Speaker 1: are there are many different flavors when you get into

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Speaker 1: psychology that people will take a bit of research and

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Speaker 1: tweak it and make it their own and stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: So mental toughness, which I've had the guys on my podcast,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you had, but that's very prevalent

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Speaker 1: in sport, and they're basically taking hardiness and added.

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Speaker 2: Confidence onto it.

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Speaker 1: So hardiness is basically the three c's they call it.

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Speaker 1: And before we get into defining it, there is literally

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Speaker 1: when you look in the literature, there's well over one

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Speaker 1: hundred published papers on hardiness and the benefits of hardiness,

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Speaker 1: everything from school kids who score higher and hardiness do

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Speaker 1: better at school, University students do better at university. Also,

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Speaker 1: people going through basic military training, if they score higher

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Speaker 1: and hardiness, they're more likely to pass, They're more likely

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Speaker 1: to stay longer in the military, they're more likely to

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Speaker 1: be better leaders in the military, and they're more likely

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Speaker 1: to pass special forces selection in the military, and the

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Speaker 1: In the workplace, hardiness is linked to the ability to

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Speaker 1: endure stress, to grow from stress, to be a better

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Speaker 1: leader as well, and it's also linked to better life

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Speaker 1: satisfaction and better coping skills, the ability to grow from stress.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's just there's there's so much stuff that

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Speaker 1: when you look at the less of publications, you go,

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Speaker 1: who would not want to have hardiness?

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Speaker 3: It's such a you thing. And I did a quick

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Speaker 3: squizz and it also which you will talk about this,

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Speaker 3: but there's a relationship between hardiness and our ability to

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Speaker 3: tolerate uncertainty. Yes, talks about the intolerance of uncertainty. There

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Speaker 3: was a study which I just had a quick squizz

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Speaker 3: of the abstract and yeah, that makes sense too. It's

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Speaker 3: like you think about if there's one thing that we

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Speaker 3: typically like, it's certainty, predictability, familiarity, comfort, like we like

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Speaker 3: to know what's coming when it's coming, you know, don't

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Speaker 3: make it fuck, don't surprise me. And so that kind

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Speaker 3: of makes sense that that ability to be able to

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Speaker 3: deal with the unknown and the uncertain the unfamiliar would

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Speaker 3: also correlate in some way with hardiness.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And in fact that's one of the three seas.

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Speaker 1: So the three seas of hardiness are challenge orientation, control orientation,

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Speaker 1: and commitment orientation. And what you're talking about there is

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Speaker 1: challenge orientation. So people who score high in challenge orientation,

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Speaker 1: they tend to see change and novelty and uncertainty as

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Speaker 1: opportunities to grow, so they tend to be class half

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Speaker 1: full in the fierce of uncertainty and novelty.

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Speaker 2: But it goes deeper than that.

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Speaker 1: They are also much more likely to see mistakes as

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Speaker 1: an opportunity to learn. So anybody's familiar with psychology can

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Speaker 1: see how growth mindset from Carol Dweck actually plays into

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Speaker 1: hardiness as well as does grit that plays into hardiness

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Speaker 1: as well. And and and really it's about as well

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Speaker 1: as that people who are high and challenge tend to

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Speaker 1: lean into discomfort and and it's really about how you

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Speaker 1: show up in the face of stressful situations and and

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Speaker 1: then when you dig deeper into it, when when you

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Speaker 1: when you really get into the nitty gritty around that.

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Speaker 1: And it's really a psychological orientation around stress and challenge

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Speaker 1: and and and then there's been a whole heap of

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Speaker 1: research that that that is kind of parallel to this,

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Speaker 1: were looks at the physical logical responses. So basically, let's

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Speaker 1: say me and you are in a workplace and we're

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Speaker 1: in the same department, and they come in and they

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Speaker 1: announced there's a massive workplace change program going and my

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Speaker 1: reaction is, holy shit, this is going to be a disaster.

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Speaker 1: Right here we go again. We had one years ago,

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Speaker 1: we just sorted it out, and now these decades are

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Speaker 1: coming in, they're running another thing. This is just going

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Speaker 1: to be just shit. Am I even going to have

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Speaker 1: a job about this?

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 1: How Am I going to get my team on board

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Speaker 1: all of this? So I'm basically having a threat response.

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Speaker 1: So what we know physiologically is that damages me from

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Speaker 1: a cardiovascular perspective, and it's activating cortisol and that's part

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Speaker 1: of the damage. No, Greig, because he's higher in hardiness, goes, okay,

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Speaker 1: it is what it is and asked about you know

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Speaker 1: why we need to do this, and he goes, all right,

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Speaker 1: well this is going to be uncomfortable for a while,

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Speaker 1: but there's clearly a benefit from that. And you look

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Speaker 1: for the opportunity, right, And you also go and brief

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Speaker 1: your team and you say, you know, this is probably

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Speaker 1: going to be quite challenging, but we need to lean

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Speaker 1: into this. What we know is that activates your fight

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Speaker 1: or flight response. So when you see that as a

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Speaker 1: challenge and the when you dive really deep into this,

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Speaker 1: For me, this place and this is where I'm connecting dots.

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Speaker 2: So I'm a big fan of the.

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Speaker 1: Research that has come out of the Hanoi Hilton prison camp,

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Speaker 1: and particularly a guy called Jim stock Deal. And I

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Speaker 1: actually interviewed a guy on my podcast called Leelis who

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Speaker 1: spent five years in that nice stock Deal and he

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Speaker 1: was the senior officer.

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Speaker 2: And the day that he got.

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Speaker 1: Captured, he got shot down and he got captured and

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Speaker 1: he got put in that prison camp. He realized that

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Speaker 1: he was the senior officer, and he gathered the men

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Speaker 1: together and he said to them, gentlemen, yourselves five years.

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Speaker 2: At least, that's how long I think we will be here.

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Speaker 1: This is going to be more horrendous than any of

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Speaker 1: us can imagine.

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Speaker 2: He said. Nobody will make it through this alone. No one.

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Speaker 1: He said, However, if we are united behind a common mission,

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Speaker 1: if we back each other relentlessly, then not only will

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Speaker 1: we get through this, but we will return home with

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Speaker 1: our honor intact. Now that sort of a statement is

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Speaker 1: very high challenge, and it's actually been called after him's

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Speaker 1: called the Stockdale paradox. That what researchers have realized from

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Speaker 1: interviewing him, the other prisoners of war, Holocaust survivors, victims

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Speaker 1: of nine to eleven and other victims of trauma, is

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Speaker 1: that when you're faced with big challenges, in order to

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Speaker 1: get through them, you must hold two seemingly opposable things

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Speaker 1: in your mind at the same time. One is an

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Speaker 1: unswerving bel if that you will prevail in the end

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Speaker 1: no matter what your circumstances. And at the same time,

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Speaker 1: you must confront the most brutal aspects of your reality,

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Speaker 1: whatever they might be right. And this is called the

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Speaker 1: stock Deal paradox. It's realistic optimism. What they realized from

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Speaker 1: from from that and from other research as well as

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Speaker 1: the Hanoi Hilton, is that Pollyanna optimism, you know, the

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Speaker 1: old Dossie She'll be right, mare bury your head. Not good,

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Speaker 1: not good, not helpful in really tough situations. Obviously, lack

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Speaker 1: of optimism is really not healthy as well. But you

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Speaker 1: need that challenge orientation, that realistic optimism, and that's you know,

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Speaker 1: when when you really get into the pressure cooker, this

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Speaker 1: is where challenge orientation comes to.

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Speaker 2: The four mmm.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's I mean, you know, that's right up there

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Speaker 3: with the Pollyanna optimism. It's right up there with you know,

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Speaker 3: you can be whatever you want, you can be anything,

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Speaker 3: if you can conceive that you can, if you can

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Speaker 3: conceive that you can fuck off. Like it's just that

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Speaker 3: that whole you know, I think that people confuse realism

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Speaker 3: with pessimism. You know, there's certain things that that very

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Speaker 3: few people can do, which is not say that the

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Speaker 3: average punts are listening to this doesn't have lots of

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Speaker 3: potential that they can tap into, yes, or power or

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Speaker 3: possibilities or you know, we can all do more, create more,

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Speaker 3: be more, learn more in some way, shape or form.

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Speaker 3: But also it's good to go, well, you know, Paul

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Speaker 3: Taylor and Craig Harper probably not going to run one

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Speaker 3: hundred and nine point five seconds, Neither of us are

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Speaker 3: probably going to bench five hundred. We're probably not going

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Speaker 3: to be billionaires before we die, probably not going to

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Speaker 3: join the space program, you know, like, and that's all okay,

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Speaker 3: it's it's you know, I think that that, yeah, you

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Speaker 3: can hold that space of being both ambitious, hopeful, optimistic,

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Speaker 3: but also a pragmatist also realistic, and go you know, well,

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Speaker 3: you're an endomorph and you're sixty.

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Speaker 4: So with that in mind, with those two awesome variables

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Speaker 4: in mind, you know, let's start with jogging two k's

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Speaker 4: you old can't and try not to fall over, you know,

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Speaker 4: it's like, let's start there, you know.

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Speaker 2: And I think that.

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Speaker 3: But you know, funny when you were talking about almost

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Speaker 3: like the consequences of our thinking, Like a thought, which

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Speaker 3: is a non physiological thing, has a physiological outcome or

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Speaker 3: can you know my thinking, that non body thing has

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Speaker 3: a consequence in my body, And it's almost like what

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Speaker 3: is the physical cost or benefit of what's going on

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Speaker 3: in my mind?

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Speaker 2: And what is that?

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Speaker 3: How does my thinking affect not only my physiology, nervous system, etc.

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Speaker 3: But also how does it affect my energy and my

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Speaker 3: overall state and my decision making and my action taking

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Speaker 3: and my outcomes? And like I feel like same with

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Speaker 3: you know, Victor Frankel's book Man Search for Meaning, as

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Speaker 3: I'm sure you've read and many of our listeners have read.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's just like I think, in many instances,

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Speaker 3: it's almost like how well can you manage your mind

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Speaker 3: or maybe more specifically your thoughts. And there's a lot

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Speaker 3: more to it than that, But can I manage my

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Speaker 3: mind in the middle of all of the other shit that.

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Speaker 2: I can't manage? Right now? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: You know, what's in my control what's not and what

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Speaker 3: am I doing about what is in my control?

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Speaker 1: So this is where you then move into the second sea,

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Speaker 1: which is control orientation. Right, So you've made the obvious

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Speaker 1: leap right there. So the three c's are intimately interconnected,

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Speaker 1: and that control orientation. People high in control orientation, particularly

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Speaker 1: when they're fierced with challenges, is they focus on what

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Speaker 1: they can control, right. And the first advice that I

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Speaker 1: have found on record of this came from the Stoic

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Speaker 1: philosopher Epictetus just under two thousand years ago when he

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Speaker 1: said that every single thing in your life is in

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Speaker 1: two zones, zone one and zone two. And according to Epictetus,

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Speaker 1: he said, zone one is the stuff that's within our

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Speaker 1: will or our power.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: And actually, if you look at Epictetus is encredy On,

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Speaker 1: which I have a copy of right behind me. It

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Speaker 1: translates from the Greek as a manual for life. The

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Speaker 1: very first line of the en credy On says of

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Speaker 1: things summer up to us and others are not RIGHTO.

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Speaker 1: And then it goes on encredy On five goes on

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Speaker 1: to unpack that and basically he says, and I'm paraphrasing Epictetus.

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Speaker 1: But the stuff that's within our control are the things

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Speaker 1: that we choose to be afraid of, the thoughts that

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Speaker 1: we choose to linger on. But most importantly, our behaviors

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Speaker 1: are actions and above all else, how we choose to

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Speaker 1: react to our circumstances. He said, no one can ever

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Speaker 1: take that from you. And it's very very similar to

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Speaker 1: Victor Frankel's thinking and that whole stuff about the choice

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Speaker 1: point and we all get to choose how we react.

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Speaker 1: And so people who are high in control orientation when

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Speaker 1: they're faced with challenges, and there's an exercise that people

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Speaker 1: can do. You know, you think of something that's challenging.

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Speaker 1: You can take something in your personal life and something

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Speaker 1: in your work life and just draw two columns, zone

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Speaker 1: one and zone two. So of all of this stuff,

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Speaker 1: what is zone one and what is zone two? So

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Speaker 1: you know you talked about it. Let's bring this back

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Speaker 1: to the example you made about you know, people having

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Speaker 1: all of these goals and stuff like that. Well, with

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Speaker 1: zone one, this stuff is you know, how much you work,

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Speaker 1: maybe some of your natural talents, your you know, those

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Speaker 1: are the things your attitude and how you react to

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Speaker 1: your circumstances. These are all zone one, but there's a

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Speaker 1: whole heap of stuff that is zone two right genetics

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Speaker 1: that you're given whether or not an accident happens to you, right,

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Speaker 1: whether or not there's a an earthquake around you. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's there's so many things and other people that the

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Speaker 1: thoughts that the deeds of other people are all things

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Speaker 1: that are outside of our control. What people think about you,

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Speaker 1: what they say about you, all of this stuff is

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Speaker 1: outside of our control. So I in workshops get people

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Speaker 1: to take a personal problem and a work problem, and

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Speaker 1: they do two columns and they go through all the

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Speaker 1: stuff that's within their control and the stuff that's with

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Speaker 1: outside of their control. And then the key thing here

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Speaker 1: is to then focus on the stuff that is within

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Speaker 1: your control. And ultimately, if there's very very little that's

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Speaker 1: in your control, what is still up to you is

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Speaker 1: how you choose to react to your circumstances. And we

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Speaker 1: have all heard of stories of peopleeople who get a

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Speaker 1: really rough ride, a shit sandwich from the universe. Some

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Speaker 1: people react to those circumstances by collapsing, and some people

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Speaker 1: react to those circumstances by leaning in and fighting like

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Speaker 1: mart right, And that is really key in that control orientation.

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Speaker 2: I love that.

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Speaker 3: I want to know, so back specifically to heartiness and you.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure the answer is a bit of both. But

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Speaker 3: what's your feeling around how much of that is? Like

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Speaker 3: I meet, like I went to school with kids who

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Speaker 3: are just incredibly fucking resilient and hardy. And it's not

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Speaker 3: like they'd done a workshop with Paul Taylor, right, that's

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Speaker 3: just them. They were robust and other kids who we know,

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Speaker 3: for whatever reason, were really quite fragile and really needed

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Speaker 3: to be looked after.

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Speaker 2: And I was maybe somewhere in the middle.

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Speaker 3: I would think, one, how much of it is about

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Speaker 3: exposing our self to things that you know, help us

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Speaker 3: become more robust, resilient, hardy? Is it therese a multiple questions?

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Speaker 3: How much of it is innate? And then I guess,

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Speaker 3: more specifically, is it trainable?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: And this is the thing that I love about hardiness

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Speaker 1: is it's absolutely coachable.

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Speaker 2: It's malleable, and all of the research shows it.

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Speaker 1: Now, I've seen some research around genetics involved in resilience,

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Speaker 1: and we know there's certain genes. Dennis Charning has done

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Speaker 1: a huge amount of workingness and I haven't seen it

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Speaker 1: specifically applied to hardiness.

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Speaker 2: But I would.

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Speaker 1: Imagine that there's a very strong crossover between genetics involved

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Speaker 1: in resilience and genetics involved in hardiness. But genes interact

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Speaker 1: with the environment, right, So genetics loads the gun, environment

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Speaker 1: pulls the trigger. So, for instance, with resilience, which I

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Speaker 1: think would play it into hardiness, there's no reason why

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Speaker 1: when there's certain gene variants that if you are exposed

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Speaker 1: to traumatic experiences early in life, and certain people with

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Speaker 1: one variant actually end up more resilient later in life. Right,

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Speaker 1: So that's early stress brings out the resilience in there.

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Speaker 1: But we know that in the resilient research, it is

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Speaker 1: not the major thing. The major thing is basically how

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Speaker 1: you're brought up and what you're exposed to whenever.

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Speaker 2: You're brought up.

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Speaker 1: And yes, there are other personality elements that play into

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Speaker 1: to it, but what we have seen is that it

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Speaker 1: is trainable. And a guy called Paul Barton talked to.

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Speaker 1: Paul Barton is one of the lead researchers on hardiness,

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Speaker 1: and the reason I love it is he's American military.

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Speaker 1: He is as American military psychologist and has done a

437
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 1: bucket load of studies on hardiness. In the American military

438
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 1: and run programs that actually tree and hardiness show the

439
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 1: improve hardiness and shows that it has real, tangible, real

440
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:09,679
Speaker 1: world outcomes in dealing with stressful situations. So this, for

441
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 1: me is why I love heartiness because the research is

442
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 1: so robust and it is trainable. So, for for instance,

443
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 1: constantly doing that exercise about what zone one and what

444
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 1: zone two is a way that you can enhance your

445
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:29,400
Speaker 1: control orientation. You can hance your challenge orientation by deliberately

446
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 1: getting uncomfortable right and bye, by doing new things and

447
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 1: deliberately and sitting with the discomfort, but also with control

448
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 1: and challenge orientation together. I think exposure yourself to stressful

449
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 1: situations and both physic physical stress and psychological stress and

450
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,960
Speaker 1: creates a bit of a heartiness sheet. So you know,

451
00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: I'm a massive fan of cultures, I spaths. You know,

452
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:05,120
Speaker 1: they are things that will increase your heartiness because they

453
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:09,919
Speaker 1: actually cause you psychologically to lean in. But there is

454
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 1: a little practice that you can do is that when

455
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 1: you have got through a situation, is you've got to

456
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 1: reflect on it, and you've got to actually savor it

457
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,919
Speaker 1: and actually note dyning other things that you can do

458
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 1: is actually note dying when in the past, and did

459
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 1: you have to overcome a really hard challenge and what

460
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 1: characteristics and did you actually show up with then? Right,

461
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:38,399
Speaker 1: So reflecting on that actually build your confidence to be

462
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 1: able to do these things. But then we need to

463
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,440
Speaker 1: run those things out in the in the test tube

464
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: of life.

465
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 2: So he actually got to do the stuff.

466
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 1: You got to do the actual work in order to

467
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 1: build your challenge orientation, your control orientation, and your commitment orientation.

468
00:27:58,560 --> 00:27:59,360
Speaker 2: And one other things.

469
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: Sorry Greek that a great thing that people can do

470
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 1: around challenge orientation is thinking about something that was that

471
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,119
Speaker 1: they would say is a bad experience that happened in

472
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 1: their life. And even you know, you can take stuff

473
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,679
Speaker 1: in your childhood. And James Gross, Professor James Gross has

474
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:22,239
Speaker 1: done to work a lot of work on this that

475
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 1: often when people think about stuff that was really bad,

476
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 1: they suppress it, they don't want to think about it.

477
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 1: But he then teaches them skills around reappraisal and finding

478
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 1: the silver lining and actually saying, yes, that was bad,

479
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 1: but what good came out of that down the track? Right,

480
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 1: And they those people who do that, they score much

481
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 1: better in life satisfaction, in optimism, and in resilience. So

482
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 1: actually just reflecting back on bad events, acknowledging the bad shit,

483
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 1: but actually going, okay, well, what was the good that

484
00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 1: came out of that?

485
00:28:58,240 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 2: Down the track?

486
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,239
Speaker 1: And sometimes you have to a silver lining hunter and

487
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 1: you have to hunt for it. But what it does

488
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: is it starts to change the way that your brain

489
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 1: perceives things that you can actually use this to you

490
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 1: or advantage. And again it plays in the stoic philosophy,

491
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: that whole concept that the obstacle is the way and

492
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: that when you're faced with huge challenges they just become

493
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 1: an opportunity to test your character or to practice a virtue.

494
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 3: You know, as you're saying, there's some thinking, and I'm

495
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 3: sure everyone, if not nearly everyone is nodding the head

496
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 3: going makes sense, right, But it's kind of counterculture. And

497
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 3: the reason I say that is because we live in

498
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 3: a culture that is pretty much obsessed with the opposite.

499
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 3: Like as as you know, as your book fucking Death

500
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 3: by Discomfort, Death by Comfort, fucking great title, I knew

501
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 3: that that book would kill. When you told me that,

502
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 3: I'm fucking I was proud of you and jealous fifty

503
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 3: to fifty because I wish I thought of that fucking title.

504
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 2: But we are a nation.

505
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 3: I'm well, that's I'm generalizing my opinion everyone is that,

506
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 3: you know, for the most part, we are obsessed with

507
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 3: comfort convenience. Since your gratification quick fixes if you don't

508
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 3: want to sell anything, you know, fucking have have some

509
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 3: elements of instant gratification or quick quick fix or you know,

510
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 3: magic pill, silver bullet, whatever metaphor you want to use.

511
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 3: But you know, people want the destination without the journey

512
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 3: of the reward, without the work whatever, you know, and

513
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 3: then when you go, hey, what we want you to do, though,

514
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 3: is not do that. What we want you to do

515
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 3: is actually go get into this cold fucking water and

516
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 3: that shit that you normally eat every night, don't eat that.

517
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 3: And also if you can get to bed by this time, also,

518
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 3: you know, here's five other hard things that you can

519
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 3: do that could revolutionize you and your life. You know,

520
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 3: it's like people like, yeah, I get it, but like

521
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 3: we are very comfort obsessed. And you know, I'm not

522
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 3: trying to cast aspersions, but it's it's like that this

523
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 3: is it is a hard it is true, but it

524
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 3: is a hard sell, and especially I think in twenty

525
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 3: twenty four.

526
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 2: When you know any everybody gets offended by everything.

527
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 3: You know, like, fuck I can if you're offended by

528
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 3: the word elbow and I say elbow, well, I'm a

529
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 3: prick and you're offended.

530
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 1: It's like, and you know my attitude on that when

531
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: people are offended, be fucking offended. You're choosing. You're choosing

532
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 1: to be offended. Can I sum all of that up?

533
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 1: That that you said in less than ten words? Again,

534
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 1: about two thousand years ago, Seneca, the Stoic philosopher unimperred.

535
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 1: Good fortune cannot withstand a single blow. And when we

536
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 1: think about that, right, if you're brought up with a

537
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 1: silver spoon in your life, nothing bad happens. Yes, you

538
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 1: cannot withstand a single blow. And this is what we're seeing.

539
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: And we're not seeing everybody brought up with a complete

540
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 1: silver spoon in your life, but we're seeing people being

541
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: brought up in an environment. We're well intentioned people, including

542
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 1: helicopter parents and right from school, are trying to make

543
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: people as comfortable as possible and everything equitable and making

544
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: people feel comfortable. There's actually a new legislation coming into

545
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 1: the workplace that we have to make people feel as

546
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: comfortable as possible, And.

547
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 3: I'm just thinking, do you legislate someone's feelings?

548
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like, can we not go back to

549
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 1: the ancient philosophers who studied life when it was really

550
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 1: frigging hard and learn some lessons. And another quote that

551
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 1: I like to throw out here is from Epictetus, and

552
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: he says, we must all undergo a hard winter training

553
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 1: and not enter into lightly that for which we have

554
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 1: not prepared.

555
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 2: And he was talking about life.

556
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 1: You know, it is very, very very clear in the

557
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 1: literature that actually being brought up in challenging environments makes

558
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 1: people much more resilience. And you know how many times

559
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 1: have you heard people say, well, I was brought up

560
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 1: in a school of hard knocks, Like really successful people

561
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: they have done well, but had a challenging upbringing. And

562
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 1: there is a bucketload of evidence about post traumatic growth,

563
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 1: like even when you go to the extreme and go

564
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 1: to trauma, that lots of people, if they don't get

565
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 1: broken by it, actually grow from it. Now we're not

566
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 1: suggesting that you go out and expose yourself deliberately to trauma,

567
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 1: but we need to have friggin discomfort. And you know,

568
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 1: I think a really good litmus test for this is

569
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 1: to ask people to have the audience think about the

570
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 1: biggest achievement in their life, like the stuff that they

571
00:33:55,920 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 1: are most proud of, and did it involve stress and

572
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: being out of your comfort zone? And the answer is

573
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:07,239
Speaker 1: almost always yes, And and so people get it when

574
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: when you think about it like that, and and and

575
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 1: there's a guy who you have interviewed on your podcast

576
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 1: several times, and I have interviewed on my podcast Stand

577
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:21,800
Speaker 1: the Man right and and and he who's a clinical

578
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,760
Speaker 1: psychologist and a sports psychologist think and he said that

579
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 1: that you've got to think about when you're looking back

580
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,799
Speaker 1: on your life. Do you want to look back on

581
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 1: life and say that was a life that was very

582
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 1: comfortable or do you want to look back and say

583
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 1: that was a life that I could be proud of?

584
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 1: Because he says, if it's the latter, you need to

585
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:47,240
Speaker 1: take on as much responsibility and challenge as you can tolerate.

586
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 2: Yes. Yes.

587
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 3: Do you know? Do you know what I think is

588
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 3: ironic about personal development as an industry, as a whatever

589
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,800
Speaker 3: the facult is right, it's a product, it's it's programs,

590
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 3: it's you know, is that for the most part, personal

591
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 3: development self help focuses on It focuses on building external

592
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:17,839
Speaker 3: stuff like situation, circumstance, money, career, you know. And none

593
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 3: of that is bad, of course, but you know, and

594
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 3: I know that you can. You can be in the

595
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 3: best house, in the best job, in the best situation,

596
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 3: maybe even in a great relate, all of these things awesome,

597
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 3: body blah blah blah. But if you're not working on you, like,

598
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 3: there's a big difference between your life situation and your

599
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,399
Speaker 3: life experience, you know. And I remember when I was young,

600
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 3: I was so obsessed with building, with succeeding, with business,

601
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 3: with money, with brand, with things right. And I did

602
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 3: all right at that. But in the middle of all

603
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 3: of that, because I didn't really directly work on me

604
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:59,439
Speaker 3: or my bullshit, of which there was much, I woke

605
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 3: up one day kind of and I went, Wow, I've

606
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 3: got I've got lots of nice things. I've got multiple businesses,

607
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,359
Speaker 3: I've got lots of employees. They're all making money. I'm

608
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:13,400
Speaker 3: making money. It's all good. And I'm scared of everything.

609
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 3: And I'm not that resilient, and i don't sleep well,

610
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 3: and I'm stressed, and I'm anxious and from the outside

611
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 3: looking in my life is awesome, but the inside out

612
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 3: because I was scared of being people figuring out how

613
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 3: stupid I was when an impost. I was, you know,

614
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:32,360
Speaker 3: like all of this shit because I really didn't focus

615
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 3: on other than my body, which again was ego driven,

616
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 3: but I didn't really focus on my own bullshit like

617
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 3: how do I build mental and emotional resilience? Or how

618
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 3: do I become more hearty? How do I build heartiness?

619
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:50,439
Speaker 3: How do I be more cognitively flexible and adaptable? How

620
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 3: do I be the calm and the chaos? How do

621
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 3: I I didn't really. I thought I was working on me,

622
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 3: but I wasn't. Really I was working on all the

623
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 3: things that people could see stuff. Yeah, I was working

624
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 3: on what people could see because I was worried about

625
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 3: what people could see of me. You know, that external world,

626
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 3: the scene, the physical, But for me it's really oh,

627
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 3: it's actually about the unseen, It's about the it's about

628
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,279
Speaker 3: the non physical. It's about that internal world. And while

629
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,800
Speaker 3: there's nothing wrong with building wealth and commercial success, of course,

630
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 3: like there's that that deep dark still place where you go,

631
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 3: all right, no one's looking, no one's cheering me on,

632
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 3: no one's criticizing me. It's just me and me. What

633
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 3: the fuck am I really about? What is my life about?

634
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,839
Speaker 3: What am I about? Why do I? I know this

635
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 3: is deep and philosophical, But why do I think the

636
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 3: way that I do? Why do I react the way

637
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 3: that I do?

638
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 4: Where?

639
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,760
Speaker 3: Where does this story come from? Why am I choosing

640
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 3: A when I know I should choose B?

641
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 2: Why?

642
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 3: What like trying to understand the self at the middle

643
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 3: of me?

644
00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 2: You know?

645
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 3: And I think this is this quest for heartiness and

646
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:07,399
Speaker 3: for I guess, competence in a messy world that gives

647
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 3: no fuck about you or me, and neither should it.

648
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 3: That's just the reality of life. Yeah, I think it's

649
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 3: it's like a deep dive, you know, of trying to

650
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 3: figure out who I am and how I am and

651
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:24,799
Speaker 3: that self awareness piece without self loathing or judgment, but

652
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 3: just awareness.

653
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:26,759
Speaker 2: Oh right.

654
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 3: I always react this way because I'm insecure, or I

655
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 3: do that because I'm fucking lazy. But I don't want

656
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 3: people to know I'm lazy, so I pretend.

657
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:35,360
Speaker 2: I'm not like that.

658
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 6: You know, it's a harddoor to open. Like to be

659
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 6: truly aware, self aware, and truly honest with yourself is

660
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 6: painful and we don't want pain.

661
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, it's interesting somebody, anybody would think that we

662
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 1: had actually prepared this because that old stuff that you

663
00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:00,880
Speaker 1: were talking about leads beautifully into commitment orientation, right, and

664
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 1: commitment to an intention. From the outside, people would think, oh,

665
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 1: that's about being committed to your goals, right, But it's

666
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:12,439
Speaker 1: actually much deeper than that. It's about people who are

667
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 1: fully engaged in life, in the activities that they have

668
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 1: of life, and that they have a strong sense of

669
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 1: meaning and purpose. They believe that life is meaningful and

670
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 1: that there is a purpose in life, right. And that

671
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: actually Victor Frankel, who you mentioned earlier, he said something

672
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 1: that I can't remember the exact quote. Somebody can dig

673
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 1: it out, but it's basically, when people don't have meaning,

674
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:39,359
Speaker 1: then they cheers pleasure, right. And that's the key thing.

675
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,800
Speaker 1: And that's what this world does for us very well.

676
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 1: Is it gives us all of those opportunities for pleasure.

677
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 1: But when I run rock shops and I ask people about,

678
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: you know, who's got a strong sense of meaning and

679
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 1: purpose in their life? Typically, I kid you, not less

680
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 1: than ten percent and often less than five percent of

681
00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 1: people would actually say yes, and that they have a

682
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 1: strong sense meaning and I think that that's that's a

683
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:07,240
Speaker 1: huge gaping hole and a lot of it is driven

684
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 1: by this world that we inhabit, right, and that commitment

685
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 1: orientation is very very important, and you can see how

686
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 1: challenge and control play into commitment as well. But it

687
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:28,240
Speaker 1: is also about people then actively pursuing their goals because

688
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:33,799
Speaker 1: they're interested in them, not because it's it's about external

689
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 1: trappings of those sorts of things. So for me, this

690
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 1: plays into something that I've been thinking a lot about lately,

691
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 1: and it's just it was thinking about a couple of

692
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,239
Speaker 1: minutes too. I really like and a guy that I've

693
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 1: met really quite recently over in New Zealand that I

694
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: thoroughly enjoy his company. And you know the reason it

695
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 1: just it just hit me a couple of weeks ago

696
00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 1: is he has a huge curiosity about life that will

697
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 1: just be well and just do a deep dive conversation

698
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:10,279
Speaker 1: into to anything. And it's that is that being totally

699
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 1: engaged and immersed in the idea of living and your

700
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 1: daily activities. And when people are engaged in that and

701
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 1: they find meaning in purpose, you know that not only

702
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 1: gives them that whole sense of contentment and which really

703
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 1: helps people's mental health, but it enables them to lean

704
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 1: into challenges and really really well. And Frankel, you know,

705
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 1: he discovered that in ouse Fits and that when you're

706
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 1: going through really hard stuff, if you don't have a

707
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 1: deep sense of meaning and purpose, you're pretty screwed. So

708
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 1: it all plays in very, very nicely. But it just

709
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,279
Speaker 1: reinforces what you were just talking about your own experience there.

710
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, And the analogy that you and I have spoken

711
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,719
Speaker 3: about many too many times, probably too many, but fuck

712
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:07,360
Speaker 3: it is, you know, is when we go to the

713
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 3: gym and we do something hard, you know, we work

714
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 3: against resistance, resistance training or progressive overload, and the byproduct

715
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 3: is our body adapts, you know, and then all of

716
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 3: a sudden, ten kilos is not heavy, when in reality

717
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 3: ten kilos is still ten kilos. But you're different, so

718
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 3: the experience of ten kilos is different, you know, So

719
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 3: that when I change me, then my life is different.

720
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 3: Well it's not really. It's the same, maybe, but your

721
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 3: interpretation or relationship with that environmental situation or challenge is

722
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 3: different now because you're processing it different, You're experiencing and

723
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:46,799
Speaker 3: interacting with it differently. You know this is not hard. Well,

724
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 3: actually it's not hard or easy. It's just what it is.

725
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 3: But your interpretation has shifted, you know, so that it's

726
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 3: like I said to you, Pep, so many people said

727
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 3: to me about my review last week, you would have

728
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 3: killed it because that's that's what you do. That's your job,

729
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 3: you talk to people. I'm like, yeah, no, I'm not

730
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 3: the same. No, it's just fucking terrified, you know. But

731
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:09,720
Speaker 3: if I had to do that review once a month,

732
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 3: I would be less terrified. Absolutely, But we're going to

733
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 3: wind up. But my last one is I don't have

734
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 3: a specific question, but just talk to me for a

735
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:26,360
Speaker 3: moment around kids and heartiness, Like, yeah, talk to me,

736
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 3: because I know you have a certain protocol and a

737
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 3: somewhat military approaching your house.

738
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 2: Fucking there's a shop everyone.

739
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 3: Tell us about because we don't want, you know, mums

740
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 3: and dads throwing their seven year olds in fucking ice

741
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 3: bars like you do.

742
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 1: But talk to us a bit about kids. Yeah, look,

743
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 1: I think I mean it. It really does start with

744
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 1: early childhood, and it starts from and when you see

745
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 1: a kid fall over, right, I can almost tell straight

746
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 1: away whether they're they're parents are and bringing them up

747
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 1: for hardiness or bringing them up for a lack of heartiness.

748
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 2: The parents who run over and go, oh my god,

749
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 2: you can't pick.

750
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:13,919
Speaker 1: Them up, and you will see that that kid will

751
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,799
Speaker 1: then start to cry, whereas other parents who just go, oh,

752
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 1: you're right, get up right. That sort of thing that

753
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 1: starts that young for me. And then when they really

754
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 1: develop language, it is about doing the hard work as

755
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:32,359
Speaker 1: a parent and being uncomfortable as a parent, letting your

756
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 1: kid get in uncomfortable situations, not saving them all the time,

757
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 1: but being around to kind of pick them up and

758
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 1: help them work through the lessons. And it's also about

759
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 1: preparing them to actually go into challenging situations. And then

760
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 1: when they do stuff or even when they attempt it

761
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 1: is to talk to them about how pride you are

762
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:59,280
Speaker 1: about the work that they put in right and praising

763
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:03,239
Speaker 1: the work, praising them for being breeve and getting in

764
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:06,319
Speaker 1: the arena even if it's a bad result, is going

765
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 1: to start to wire that kid's bring for those for

766
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 1: and for doing that stuff, for leaning into discomfort. And

767
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:18,240
Speaker 1: then it's also when they've been through hard stuff like

768
00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 1: like I did with Oscar and quite recently when he

769
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 1: you know, had come through cushion's disease. Is to sit

770
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 1: down and go, admit, what's the silver linings that come

771
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 1: out of that bad experience, right, and just let them

772
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 1: come up with it, and then praise them when they when.

773
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 2: They get it right.

774
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 1: But it's also then about sitting down with them and

775
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:39,799
Speaker 1: getting them to focus on the stuff that they can

776
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 1: control and to do the zone one in the zone

777
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:45,360
Speaker 1: two thring and to focus on what they can control,

778
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 1: and to focus on being a good person because ultimately

779
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:52,280
Speaker 1: that was the big thing about stoicism was arata.

780
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:54,879
Speaker 2: Good character is all you need.

781
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 1: So not praising your kids for winning and all of that,

782
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:03,280
Speaker 1: but praising them for the character and how they actually

783
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 1: behave I think that that is really key. And then

784
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:11,920
Speaker 1: for me, around commitment orientation, it's about encouraging them to

785
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 1: persist in to have grit and passion for long term

786
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 1: goals and then again praising that behavior whenever they do that,

787
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 1: but also to open doors for them around curiosity, right,

788
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 1: and they actually spend time with them going, look how

789
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:31,719
Speaker 1: col that stuff is like running water? Have you ever

790
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:33,439
Speaker 1: thought what's behind running water?

791
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:33,799
Speaker 2: Right?

792
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:38,279
Speaker 1: Because gratitude plays in really really well, because gratitude can

793
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,840
Speaker 1: connected with curiosity. I think then really helps with that

794
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:45,880
Speaker 1: commitment orientation. So there are a number of things just

795
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 1: off the top of my head that parents can do

796
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:51,760
Speaker 1: to help their kids to develop that challenge, that control,

797
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:55,239
Speaker 1: and that commitment orientation. But the worst thing that they

798
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:57,440
Speaker 1: can do is that when they feel discomfort, is that

799
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: they help them, help to remove them from the situation.

800
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,719
Speaker 1: You've got to let them feel that discomfort, however painful

801
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 1: it is as a parent. But you got to give

802
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:12,359
Speaker 1: them the courage to grow from stress because ultimately that's

803
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 1: what hardiness is about. So the odd ice bath and

804
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,839
Speaker 1: beep test won't go a.

805
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:22,280
Speaker 3: Mess well, you know, and then you're basically training kids

806
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:27,239
Speaker 3: to be courageous, adaptable, decent you know, grown ups. You

807
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 3: know when they when they fly out of the nest

808
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:32,759
Speaker 3: whenever that is these days, it's at about thirty eight,

809
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:37,720
Speaker 3: and you know, they can they can survive and thrive,

810
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 3: you know, and there and if shit doesn't work out,

811
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:42,719
Speaker 3: they're okay. I don't need mommy and daddy to run

812
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:46,319
Speaker 3: interference constantly. Yeah, And I think that's come and save

813
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 3: them and solve them.

814
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 1: I think the key thing great for me, the biggest responsibility,

815
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 1: the biggest thing as a parent is that you need

816
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 1: to prepare your kids for life, and you need to

817
00:47:55,600 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 1: prepare them for a vocal world, a volatile world that

818
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 1: that is also uncertain and it's ambiguous as well. We

819
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 1: have to prepare them for that voker world because it

820
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:10,800
Speaker 1: is getting more and more Voka.

821
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 3: Paul Tayler from the Paul Taylor Podcast, fucking superstar. How

822
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:19,440
Speaker 3: can people connect with you, follow you and pay you

823
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:22,880
Speaker 3: an obscene amount of money to work with their team is?

824
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 1: The website would be Paul Taylor dot beast. That's probably

825
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 1: the best place. Instagram. I'm at Paul Taylor bis. I

826
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 1: think you can tell her I'm on social media social right.

827
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:39,760
Speaker 1: But the podcast, the Paul Taylor Podcast, and the website,

828
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 1: they would be the two main things.

829
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 3: Hey t superstar, thank you, carry on

830
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:56,279
Speaker 1: Good chat, Thanks Harps, good luck for the PhD.