1 00:00:05,881 --> 00:00:07,281 Speaker 1: Approache Production. 2 00:00:19,281 --> 00:00:21,521 Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shann. I'm your host, 3 00:00:21,521 --> 00:00:25,321 Speaker 2: Adam Shann. I've got a new collecting obsession old crime 4 00:00:25,361 --> 00:00:29,761 Speaker 2: headlines from Melbourne's Truth newspaper What's your goodbyfe for six 5 00:00:29,801 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 2: months back in the fifties costs about ten bucks a 6 00:00:32,521 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 2: day and second hand stores another day, came upon one 7 00:00:36,441 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 2: from October nineteen fifty four, but just jumped out of 8 00:00:40,321 --> 00:00:45,001 Speaker 2: me in screaming ninety six point type. Here's what it read, 9 00:00:46,361 --> 00:00:49,521 Speaker 2: How are you feeling? Killer? Did you like what you 10 00:00:49,601 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 2: read about your victim Shirley Collins at the Inquest this week? 11 00:00:54,041 --> 00:00:56,161 Speaker 2: How you took a fourteen year old girl for a 12 00:00:56,281 --> 00:00:59,401 Speaker 2: ride in a car to a deserted home in Mount Martha, 13 00:01:00,121 --> 00:01:03,081 Speaker 2: And when you got there, how you suddenly attacked her, 14 00:01:03,761 --> 00:01:07,041 Speaker 2: ripped off her clothing, savagely smashed her head in with 15 00:01:07,081 --> 00:01:11,961 Speaker 2: a bottle and pieces of concrete guttering. Did a great 16 00:01:12,041 --> 00:01:14,681 Speaker 2: shudder run through your body as she thought back to 17 00:01:14,761 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 2: the girl's agonized cries of the blood that must have 18 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:26,801 Speaker 2: gushed onto your hands, your clothing. To shocking story. The victim, 19 00:01:27,161 --> 00:01:30,921 Speaker 2: Shirley Collins, was on her first adult night out on 20 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 2: September twelve, nineteen fifty three a birthday party. She was 21 00:01:36,401 --> 00:01:40,761 Speaker 2: last seen at North Richmond Railway station in inner city Melbourne. 22 00:01:41,041 --> 00:01:44,041 Speaker 2: Three days later, her battered corpse was found in a 23 00:01:44,121 --> 00:01:49,761 Speaker 2: driveway at Mount Martha, some eighty kilometers away. Police promised 24 00:01:49,801 --> 00:01:53,481 Speaker 2: a swift arrest for this heenous crime, Truth offered one 25 00:01:53,561 --> 00:01:58,041 Speaker 2: thousand pounds for information. I thought to myself, this crime 26 00:01:58,121 --> 00:02:01,001 Speaker 2: must have been solved long ago. I looked it up 27 00:02:01,401 --> 00:02:06,321 Speaker 2: and to my surprise, it still hasn't. So I thought, 28 00:02:06,641 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 2: how can I add a fresh angle to this? As 29 00:02:09,801 --> 00:02:13,281 Speaker 2: I'm pouring over Google, I see that a friend and colleague, 30 00:02:13,601 --> 00:02:17,961 Speaker 2: doctor Louise Steading, has done the work for me. Louise 31 00:02:18,041 --> 00:02:22,201 Speaker 2: is what I call an industrial strength forensic archaeologist. She's 32 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 2: taught forensic psychology, criminology, and policing to cops in two states, 33 00:02:27,641 --> 00:02:31,761 Speaker 2: among many thousands of other students. In a field where 34 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,521 Speaker 2: once over lightly for the media is enough for many, 35 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:40,241 Speaker 2: Louise digs deep and hard with passion and focus. She 36 00:02:40,321 --> 00:02:43,281 Speaker 2: and her partner Gerald now work on cold cases, going 37 00:02:43,321 --> 00:02:45,961 Speaker 2: back to the basics of the evidence and doing some 38 00:02:46,121 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 2: amazing work. Louise has spent years on Shirley's case and 39 00:02:50,281 --> 00:02:53,201 Speaker 2: has come up with what I believe is a very 40 00:02:53,441 --> 00:02:58,161 Speaker 2: credible suspect that everyone missed. And it's my pleasure to 41 00:02:58,161 --> 00:03:00,841 Speaker 2: welcome Louise to the Real Crime Studio today. 42 00:03:00,881 --> 00:03:05,801 Speaker 1: Luise, Hello, Adam. We're back again to working together, so 43 00:03:05,921 --> 00:03:06,601 Speaker 1: that's great. 44 00:03:07,321 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 2: The last time I was with you were up at 45 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:12,921 Speaker 2: Sensible Creek near Charda's Towers looking for the remains of 46 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:16,041 Speaker 2: Anita Cunningham, and you're still in that case, so I 47 00:03:16,081 --> 00:03:17,001 Speaker 2: really commend you for that. 48 00:03:17,921 --> 00:03:20,641 Speaker 1: Yeah, we're heading back up there. Hence we're on the road, 49 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 1: so excuse any passing cars or birds. 50 00:03:24,841 --> 00:03:27,041 Speaker 2: The caravans on the road looking for looking for clues. 51 00:03:27,081 --> 00:03:29,921 Speaker 2: It's fantastic. What a life I envy. You tell me 52 00:03:30,641 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 2: who was Shirley Collins. 53 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,281 Speaker 1: Shirley Collins was a fourteen year old girl who was 54 00:03:36,361 --> 00:03:41,201 Speaker 1: heading off on her very first adult party. I mean, 55 00:03:41,241 --> 00:03:45,001 Speaker 1: it's very sad she never made it, tots. She was 56 00:03:45,081 --> 00:03:49,841 Speaker 1: also apparently do you know there are friends of hers 57 00:03:49,881 --> 00:03:53,561 Speaker 1: who was still alive. They meet each year. They're in 58 00:03:53,601 --> 00:03:58,321 Speaker 1: their eighties and they talk about Shirley. They described her 59 00:03:58,401 --> 00:04:06,601 Speaker 1: as a good girl. She was a quiet, industry good 60 00:04:07,081 --> 00:04:09,841 Speaker 1: girl who wouldn't get in the car of a stranger, 61 00:04:10,281 --> 00:04:16,361 Speaker 1: who had been well raised by foster parents, however, deserted 62 00:04:16,601 --> 00:04:21,001 Speaker 1: by her mother. I say mother because I think her 63 00:04:21,041 --> 00:04:25,841 Speaker 1: father was probably killed in the war. Her stepfather deserted 64 00:04:25,921 --> 00:04:30,081 Speaker 1: her her mother. The friends had often thought that her 65 00:04:30,121 --> 00:04:32,601 Speaker 1: mother didn't care for her, but I think that might 66 00:04:32,681 --> 00:04:36,641 Speaker 1: be wrong. Her mother had Her birth mother had a 67 00:04:36,641 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: criminal record and was basically in flight from the police 68 00:04:42,521 --> 00:04:46,121 Speaker 1: and headed up to Queensland. But devastating for a fourteen 69 00:04:46,201 --> 00:04:46,601 Speaker 1: year old. 70 00:04:47,281 --> 00:04:50,481 Speaker 2: I think it was just minor larceny charges the theft 71 00:04:50,681 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 2: of a gold watch I believe, which I think Shirley 72 00:04:54,521 --> 00:04:55,601 Speaker 2: was possibly wearing. 73 00:04:56,481 --> 00:04:58,801 Speaker 1: Yes, so, yes, that's what I thought. 74 00:04:59,281 --> 00:05:03,801 Speaker 2: So on the night of September twelfth, nineteen fifty three, 75 00:05:04,721 --> 00:05:08,721 Speaker 2: she's heading to a party at Richmond. She's going to 76 00:05:08,721 --> 00:05:10,921 Speaker 2: be picked up by a colleague. She's working at GJ. 77 00:05:11,241 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 2: Cole's Variety store in Burke Street in Melbourne, and this 78 00:05:14,961 --> 00:05:18,160 Speaker 2: is her social network. Yeah, she's met people she's working 79 00:05:18,201 --> 00:05:20,401 Speaker 2: where she's the one of the younger ones at fourteen. 80 00:05:21,121 --> 00:05:25,841 Speaker 2: But she arranges to meet Ronald John Holmes, twenty one, 81 00:05:26,361 --> 00:05:31,041 Speaker 2: one of her workmates. He thinks they're meeting at Richmond Station. 82 00:05:32,121 --> 00:05:35,241 Speaker 2: She doesn't know about Richmond Station and so she goes 83 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:37,241 Speaker 2: to North Richmond station. 84 00:05:37,521 --> 00:05:43,041 Speaker 1: What happened next, Well, Ronald Holmes, he was her chaperone. 85 00:05:43,201 --> 00:05:46,921 Speaker 1: A lot of people thought, oh ah, this guy, because 86 00:05:46,921 --> 00:05:50,041 Speaker 1: of the seven year age difference, had something to do 87 00:05:50,121 --> 00:05:54,441 Speaker 1: with it. Maybe maybe not. At this stage, when Shirley 88 00:05:54,521 --> 00:05:59,241 Speaker 1: got off at the station, he wasn't anywhere. Ronald wasn't 89 00:05:59,241 --> 00:06:03,161 Speaker 1: anywhere to be seen. He probably went to a different station, 90 00:06:03,961 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: so she would have felt very stood up and humiliated. 91 00:06:09,241 --> 00:06:12,801 Speaker 1: He did too elsewhere. He added straight to the party 92 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:17,721 Speaker 1: and actually told people he'd been stood up. But Shirley 93 00:06:18,681 --> 00:06:24,161 Speaker 1: wasn't seen again. Actually she wasn't seen since the bus stop. 94 00:06:24,801 --> 00:06:28,921 Speaker 1: She wasn't really seen until there's a change over between 95 00:06:28,961 --> 00:06:32,241 Speaker 1: bus and train. That's where she wasn't seen since. 96 00:06:32,361 --> 00:06:35,881 Speaker 2: Because she's coming in from reservoir reservoir as we call 97 00:06:35,921 --> 00:06:40,041 Speaker 2: it down here, and she gets the train into North Richmond. 98 00:06:40,641 --> 00:06:43,841 Speaker 2: And as you say, she was not the kind of 99 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:47,241 Speaker 2: girl to jump in a stranger's car. I think she 100 00:06:47,281 --> 00:06:50,441 Speaker 2: would have been more likely to have simply turned around 101 00:06:50,521 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 2: and gone home. But then there's a critical alleged sighting 102 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:01,281 Speaker 2: at about eight o'clock. A woman is walking down from 103 00:07:01,401 --> 00:07:04,921 Speaker 2: Punt Road down Elizabeth Street, towards North Richmond station and 104 00:07:05,161 --> 00:07:10,721 Speaker 2: she sees a girl fitting Shirley Collins description, and she's 105 00:07:10,801 --> 00:07:12,481 Speaker 2: talking to a man in a car. 106 00:07:12,761 --> 00:07:16,401 Speaker 1: Can I just interject there? Sure there's more than one 107 00:07:16,521 --> 00:07:21,201 Speaker 1: witness There were two. And these witnesses came forward two 108 00:07:21,441 --> 00:07:25,721 Speaker 1: months after Shirley's body was found. And this is a 109 00:07:25,961 --> 00:07:30,961 Speaker 1: huge discrepancy. This is a huge lapse of time that 110 00:07:31,921 --> 00:07:36,681 Speaker 1: impacts the reliability of memory. Also, we know that since 111 00:07:36,761 --> 00:07:42,921 Speaker 1: this time, many publications in the newspapers have been presented. 112 00:07:43,121 --> 00:07:47,441 Speaker 1: For example, one of the witnesses reported that she was 113 00:07:47,481 --> 00:07:51,841 Speaker 1: wearing a pearl necklace because that's how she was presented 114 00:07:52,521 --> 00:07:56,281 Speaker 1: in the actual newspaper. But in fact they found the 115 00:07:56,321 --> 00:07:59,961 Speaker 1: pearl necklace back at home. She hadn't worn it at all. 116 00:08:00,481 --> 00:08:03,881 Speaker 1: So when I looked at this book, I looked for 117 00:08:04,041 --> 00:08:12,681 Speaker 1: inconsistent seas and consistencies, and quite frankly, I pushed many 118 00:08:12,721 --> 00:08:19,321 Speaker 1: of the witnesses aside and try to trace steps. A 119 00:08:19,361 --> 00:08:22,761 Speaker 1: lot of this has to do with timing and movement. 120 00:08:23,281 --> 00:08:25,081 Speaker 1: That's how I look to do it. 121 00:08:25,241 --> 00:08:30,161 Speaker 2: Fascinating in your book, Inconceivable Malice, you do cast doubt 122 00:08:30,321 --> 00:08:32,481 Speaker 2: on these eyewitness accounts. You've always got to be careful 123 00:08:32,521 --> 00:08:35,881 Speaker 2: with thy witness accounts because they can be influenced by 124 00:08:35,921 --> 00:08:39,561 Speaker 2: what people have read. Memory fades away very quickly, as 125 00:08:39,601 --> 00:08:43,001 Speaker 2: you say, this was some weeks or months after the events. 126 00:08:43,281 --> 00:08:48,041 Speaker 2: So we really can't be sure that she even got 127 00:08:48,321 --> 00:08:50,441 Speaker 2: to North Richmond station, Is that what you're saying? 128 00:08:51,121 --> 00:08:55,081 Speaker 1: Yeah, But irrespective that even if she didn't get to 129 00:08:55,401 --> 00:09:00,801 Speaker 1: North Richmond station at some time, say Regent Street station 130 00:09:01,161 --> 00:09:04,441 Speaker 1: where the bus at the bus and the train intersection, 131 00:09:05,121 --> 00:09:09,121 Speaker 1: at some stage she got in a car and so 132 00:09:09,201 --> 00:09:13,921 Speaker 1: basically I take that and that car went to Mount Martha. 133 00:09:14,561 --> 00:09:17,601 Speaker 1: And this is why the timing I've looked at motor 134 00:09:17,641 --> 00:09:24,321 Speaker 1: vehicle speeds, traffic lights, headlights, lighting, weather, all that sort 135 00:09:24,321 --> 00:09:29,361 Speaker 1: of thing was raining and to narrow down time frames, 136 00:09:29,761 --> 00:09:33,401 Speaker 1: you look at I know it sounds gross, but maggots, 137 00:09:34,001 --> 00:09:37,761 Speaker 1: maggots that were found. You look at the last meal 138 00:09:38,201 --> 00:09:42,561 Speaker 1: that she had, the things that we know. Because I 139 00:09:42,641 --> 00:09:46,161 Speaker 1: must say, many of the witness accounts and people can 140 00:09:46,801 --> 00:09:50,081 Speaker 1: really want to help the police, but they can be 141 00:09:50,121 --> 00:09:54,801 Speaker 1: a huge distraction, a huge distraction if they're incorrect. 142 00:09:55,641 --> 00:09:58,561 Speaker 2: You're right, everything is up for contests in this story. 143 00:09:59,121 --> 00:10:02,761 Speaker 2: Only thing we do know for certain is that nine 144 00:10:02,801 --> 00:10:07,281 Speaker 2: am Tuesday, three days almost three days after she disappears, 145 00:10:07,721 --> 00:10:11,561 Speaker 2: a retired businessman is walking his fox terrier Bombo along 146 00:10:11,641 --> 00:10:15,561 Speaker 2: Marine drive Mount Martha. Bombo runs up a driveway to 147 00:10:15,641 --> 00:10:19,001 Speaker 2: a vacant cottage, barking and comes back and tugs at 148 00:10:19,001 --> 00:10:22,881 Speaker 2: his master's leg, urging him to come see what he's found. 149 00:10:23,641 --> 00:10:24,921 Speaker 2: What does the witness find? 150 00:10:25,881 --> 00:10:31,201 Speaker 1: Ah, this is crucial now, remembering that two days and 151 00:10:31,281 --> 00:10:35,961 Speaker 1: three nights have passed since she actually disappeared. She was 152 00:10:36,041 --> 00:10:40,481 Speaker 1: found with her head covered and her head smashed in, 153 00:10:40,721 --> 00:10:46,881 Speaker 1: her face smashed in. She was found naked from the 154 00:10:46,961 --> 00:10:53,321 Speaker 1: shoulders down except stocking down on one foot. Very staged, 155 00:10:53,921 --> 00:10:59,121 Speaker 1: a very staged position for a fourteen year old girl 156 00:10:59,721 --> 00:11:05,841 Speaker 1: absolutely dead. I know this sounds awful too, but dec imposing. 157 00:11:06,921 --> 00:11:14,041 Speaker 1: It's just imagine how that man felt in finding her. Anyway, 158 00:11:14,121 --> 00:11:18,121 Speaker 1: he called the police. Tromana police jumped to it very 159 00:11:18,201 --> 00:11:23,441 Speaker 1: quickly and they worked together with the police from Melbourne. 160 00:11:23,921 --> 00:11:27,321 Speaker 1: So it was really a good collaboration of many police 161 00:11:27,961 --> 00:11:28,881 Speaker 1: at the time of death. 162 00:11:28,921 --> 00:11:31,921 Speaker 2: Became a critical element to this whole investigation because, as 163 00:11:31,961 --> 00:11:35,881 Speaker 2: you say, police put out calls for information, there was 164 00:11:35,921 --> 00:11:39,441 Speaker 2: a radio broadcast, there was pictures of Shirley in the 165 00:11:39,441 --> 00:11:41,921 Speaker 2: clothes that she wore, staged up with for the model 166 00:11:41,961 --> 00:11:45,081 Speaker 2: and so forth. And this brought a lot of information, 167 00:11:45,321 --> 00:11:51,761 Speaker 2: including some witness accounts from people in the Mount Martha 168 00:11:51,841 --> 00:11:54,721 Speaker 2: area that suggested that she might not have died on 169 00:11:54,761 --> 00:11:58,561 Speaker 2: the Saturday, but some days afterwards, which was very misleading. 170 00:11:59,081 --> 00:12:01,361 Speaker 2: It was indeed she was supposed to have been seen 171 00:12:01,401 --> 00:12:02,481 Speaker 2: in a hotel. 172 00:12:02,441 --> 00:12:06,001 Speaker 1: In a shop as well, coffee shop, hotel. Well, the 173 00:12:06,081 --> 00:12:09,881 Speaker 1: thing is, you think, why on earth would someone do that, 174 00:12:10,201 --> 00:12:13,921 Speaker 1: Why on earth would they distract police? Well, it might 175 00:12:14,001 --> 00:12:17,761 Speaker 1: be that she's on their mind and they truly believe 176 00:12:17,961 --> 00:12:20,921 Speaker 1: that they've seen her and they don't want to not 177 00:12:21,161 --> 00:12:25,521 Speaker 1: give information into the police. But I don't actually think 178 00:12:25,601 --> 00:12:29,481 Speaker 1: that's what happened here. I think it was good publicity. 179 00:12:29,921 --> 00:12:35,041 Speaker 1: Quite frankly, I know that's callous, but I think that 180 00:12:35,201 --> 00:12:39,841 Speaker 1: the hotel owner or the shop owner that it brought 181 00:12:39,881 --> 00:12:44,841 Speaker 1: the client tell because it did to their premises and 182 00:12:44,921 --> 00:12:48,641 Speaker 1: increase their sales. It got them on the map, and 183 00:12:48,681 --> 00:12:53,801 Speaker 1: in this instance, it distracted police. It gave them theories 184 00:12:53,881 --> 00:12:58,241 Speaker 1: that didn't work, And it wasn't until the medical examiner 185 00:12:58,641 --> 00:13:04,321 Speaker 1: came up with his findings that they could refute all 186 00:13:04,361 --> 00:13:07,441 Speaker 1: of these unreliable sightings. 187 00:13:09,041 --> 00:13:13,041 Speaker 2: And you can imagine how that was for Shirley's foster parents. 188 00:13:14,081 --> 00:13:18,041 Speaker 2: She is a quiet, conscientious girl. She's not experienced socially, 189 00:13:18,121 --> 00:13:21,481 Speaker 2: and suddenly she's turning up in hotels and drinking beer 190 00:13:21,921 --> 00:13:25,441 Speaker 2: and having meals with older men and so forth. So distressing. 191 00:13:25,841 --> 00:13:28,921 Speaker 2: But as you pointed out earlier, they. 192 00:13:28,801 --> 00:13:33,521 Speaker 1: Stood by her and said, no, no, she would not 193 00:13:34,161 --> 00:13:38,761 Speaker 1: have done that. That is not our girl. I thought 194 00:13:38,801 --> 00:13:40,081 Speaker 1: that was admirable. 195 00:13:40,081 --> 00:13:43,121 Speaker 2: Correct. The medical examiner was critical on this because, as 196 00:13:43,161 --> 00:13:45,281 Speaker 2: you said, he looked at the contents of her stomach 197 00:13:45,841 --> 00:13:49,961 Speaker 2: and as you indelicately put it, the growth of maggots 198 00:13:49,961 --> 00:13:52,241 Speaker 2: on the body over those days, and you suddenly come 199 00:13:52,281 --> 00:13:54,601 Speaker 2: back to a very specific time of death. How has 200 00:13:54,641 --> 00:13:55,721 Speaker 2: that arrived at Louis. 201 00:13:56,521 --> 00:14:00,721 Speaker 1: It's all from the first lane of eggs. He looked 202 00:14:00,761 --> 00:14:03,561 Speaker 1: at the laying of eggs and the timelines of the 203 00:14:03,601 --> 00:14:09,121 Speaker 1: different stages of development of maggots found in Shirley's body, 204 00:14:09,921 --> 00:14:14,121 Speaker 1: and a different method. Now this is important. These police 205 00:14:14,241 --> 00:14:20,721 Speaker 1: tried a different method from a different source of information. 206 00:14:21,161 --> 00:14:25,321 Speaker 1: That is a really good way of examining a case. 207 00:14:25,441 --> 00:14:29,281 Speaker 1: So the medical examiner also looked at her last meal, 208 00:14:30,201 --> 00:14:33,761 Speaker 1: and there was also a false report there too, but 209 00:14:33,881 --> 00:14:37,521 Speaker 1: it had certain elements in it that took quite a 210 00:14:37,561 --> 00:14:41,521 Speaker 1: long time to digest, Like it was pea and hand 211 00:14:41,641 --> 00:14:46,201 Speaker 1: soup and split peas take quite a long time to digest, 212 00:14:46,521 --> 00:14:50,321 Speaker 1: but not that long, and so the time was narrowed 213 00:14:50,361 --> 00:14:56,681 Speaker 1: in to around seven point thirty pm, so he arrived 214 00:14:57,321 --> 00:15:02,401 Speaker 1: at a time frame of between seven thirty pm and 215 00:15:02,921 --> 00:15:09,681 Speaker 1: eleven pm. When I mentioned Ronald Holmes earlier, her chaperone. 216 00:15:10,401 --> 00:15:14,121 Speaker 1: No matter how I looked at this, he did not 217 00:15:14,521 --> 00:15:19,161 Speaker 1: fit within the timeline. This person, the killer, had to 218 00:15:19,281 --> 00:15:25,841 Speaker 1: drive to Mount Martha and come back. Remember that Ronald 219 00:15:26,041 --> 00:15:30,481 Speaker 1: turned up at the party. The police even asked what 220 00:15:30,601 --> 00:15:35,001 Speaker 1: were you all doing at the time he arrived, what 221 00:15:35,361 --> 00:15:39,881 Speaker 1: were you watching? They were all watching motorbikes on probably 222 00:15:39,961 --> 00:15:45,761 Speaker 1: the TV, so they closed in. That's one person who 223 00:15:45,921 --> 00:15:49,521 Speaker 1: got eliminated. Now must say he was also a suspect, 224 00:15:49,641 --> 00:15:53,041 Speaker 1: quite a main one for me in the beginning. So 225 00:15:54,041 --> 00:15:59,281 Speaker 1: at that point when he did not fit, he got eliminated. 226 00:15:59,601 --> 00:16:04,121 Speaker 1: Set to the side, eliminated by me as a suspect, 227 00:16:04,361 --> 00:16:09,161 Speaker 1: as he I think was eliminated by the police too. Basically, 228 00:16:10,081 --> 00:16:17,241 Speaker 1: I pulled everybody in including the parents, including all the colleagues. 229 00:16:17,521 --> 00:16:22,281 Speaker 1: I pulled everybody in as a suspect, especially given that 230 00:16:22,441 --> 00:16:28,321 Speaker 1: eighty seven percent of murders are committed by people who 231 00:16:28,521 --> 00:16:32,721 Speaker 1: know the victim. Eighty seven percent they don't say to 232 00:16:32,801 --> 00:16:35,961 Speaker 1: what extent they know them. But here we've got a 233 00:16:36,001 --> 00:16:42,361 Speaker 1: whole bundle of work colleagues, we've got parents, foster parents, 234 00:16:42,921 --> 00:16:47,761 Speaker 1: and so on. So everybody became a focus, but not Ronald. 235 00:16:47,801 --> 00:16:49,321 Speaker 1: He got eliminated early on. 236 00:16:50,001 --> 00:16:52,201 Speaker 2: Well, you know, when I was reading the news clip 237 00:16:52,281 --> 00:16:56,401 Speaker 2: that I bought at the bazaar, I thought Ronald Holmes 238 00:16:56,481 --> 00:16:58,321 Speaker 2: was the obvious suspect. But when you look at the 239 00:16:58,841 --> 00:17:01,041 Speaker 2: drive that he had to make to pick her up 240 00:17:01,041 --> 00:17:03,481 Speaker 2: from the station, drive all the way to Mount Martha 241 00:17:03,721 --> 00:17:06,681 Speaker 2: Kill her drive back, but he's at the party by 242 00:17:06,801 --> 00:17:12,321 Speaker 2: nine point fifteen, so it's just not possible. Now, the 243 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:17,281 Speaker 2: police did a pretty good job in this investigation. True 244 00:17:17,321 --> 00:17:21,120 Speaker 2: crime podcasters love dumping on the police, saying that, you know, 245 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,400 Speaker 2: in these unsolved cold cases that the police missed this, 246 00:17:24,481 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 2: and they didn't do that, and they should have done this, 247 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:28,881 Speaker 2: and the rest of it. But in this investigation, Victoria 248 00:17:28,921 --> 00:17:31,321 Speaker 2: police I think did a very good job, including the 249 00:17:31,360 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 2: Inspector Donnelly, who was in charge of the case. He 250 00:17:33,921 --> 00:17:35,880 Speaker 2: looked at this for years and years, and I think 251 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:38,761 Speaker 2: he gave you a pretty good baseline of data to 252 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,001 Speaker 2: look at. And I think one of the key things 253 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:49,681 Speaker 2: was the meticulous crime scene photographs and descriptions which you've used. 254 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:52,521 Speaker 2: And I'd like you if you could just to tell 255 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:54,761 Speaker 2: us a bit more about that scene, because it was 256 00:17:55,481 --> 00:18:00,120 Speaker 2: striking for its barbarity and savagery. Tell us what did 257 00:18:00,201 --> 00:18:03,281 Speaker 2: they find and how had she been killed? 258 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:07,640 Speaker 1: One of the ways and one of the ways I 259 00:18:07,801 --> 00:18:11,441 Speaker 1: look at these scenes. So now I look at the landscape, 260 00:18:11,721 --> 00:18:15,201 Speaker 1: I look at all the physical remains, be that her 261 00:18:15,801 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 1: or bottles or concrete covered in blood. It was a 262 00:18:20,281 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: diabolical scene, or clothes strewn across the site itself, with 263 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:30,881 Speaker 1: one shoe even up in a tree. So with this, 264 00:18:32,120 --> 00:18:38,321 Speaker 1: to me, every murder sight actually informs about the killer. 265 00:18:38,761 --> 00:18:42,201 Speaker 1: It's not just that they do or don't leave physical evidence. 266 00:18:42,561 --> 00:18:47,561 Speaker 1: They leave the psychological traces at this site as well. Now, 267 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:55,041 Speaker 1: with this particular scene, Shirley was obsessively bashed. It was 268 00:18:55,281 --> 00:19:01,761 Speaker 1: really overkilled. This was obscene, and also that she was 269 00:19:02,001 --> 00:19:07,721 Speaker 1: naked and staged. Her legs were apart. It was horrible, 270 00:19:08,481 --> 00:19:12,241 Speaker 1: and she was actually found facing upwards, but the police 271 00:19:12,321 --> 00:19:17,161 Speaker 1: turned her over, so we've got an image of facing 272 00:19:17,281 --> 00:19:22,201 Speaker 1: up with the skirt that covers her head, that covers 273 00:19:22,321 --> 00:19:26,521 Speaker 1: her identity. So I actually, in my view, this guy 274 00:19:26,561 --> 00:19:31,161 Speaker 1: couldn't face her. But he was so angry that beer 275 00:19:31,281 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 1: bottles full not yet consumed, were not enough. He pulled 276 00:19:38,281 --> 00:19:44,041 Speaker 1: up concrete and smashed in caved in her face. I 277 00:19:44,120 --> 00:19:46,400 Speaker 1: was just going to say to you, there's something else 278 00:19:46,921 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 1: that struck me in one of the photographs. I know 279 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: I might have been seeing things, but I was sure 280 00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:56,880 Speaker 1: I could see a footprint or a shoe print on 281 00:19:57,241 --> 00:20:01,561 Speaker 1: her buttocks, and that was nothing that had ever been 282 00:20:01,681 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 1: commented on. So that just shows up in a I'm 283 00:20:05,321 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 1: seeing photo. 284 00:20:06,801 --> 00:20:09,641 Speaker 2: As you say, it was so shocking, as quickly run 285 00:20:09,721 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 2: through what I've read of it from your book. By 286 00:20:11,921 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 2: the way, it looks like they've arrived there. They've walked 287 00:20:16,441 --> 00:20:21,360 Speaker 2: some distance up this driveway towards the cottage. He's carrying 288 00:20:22,201 --> 00:20:24,001 Speaker 2: full bottles of beer, possibly three. 289 00:20:24,921 --> 00:20:25,481 Speaker 1: Yeah. 290 00:20:25,561 --> 00:20:29,881 Speaker 2: He struck her from behind with the bottle at least 291 00:20:29,921 --> 00:20:35,400 Speaker 2: once or probably twice. She's either unconscious or already dead. He 292 00:20:35,441 --> 00:20:39,801 Speaker 2: then pulls her skirt over her head, goes to the 293 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 2: nearby drain and picks up not one, but two pieces 294 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 2: of concrete guttering and comes back smashes her in the 295 00:20:52,001 --> 00:20:57,801 Speaker 2: head with this guttering and breaks every bone in her head. 296 00:20:58,801 --> 00:21:01,801 Speaker 2: It is shocking, and I'm sorry to go, but I 297 00:21:01,801 --> 00:21:04,881 Speaker 2: think it's really important because when you looked at this, 298 00:21:05,321 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 2: you apply a particular filter, which is the difference between 299 00:21:09,441 --> 00:21:13,801 Speaker 2: an organized and a disorganized defender. And what traces of 300 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,881 Speaker 2: his personality did the killer leave behind. That's a big 301 00:21:17,921 --> 00:21:19,361 Speaker 2: part of your reasoning in this. 302 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:25,641 Speaker 1: Well, with this particular with this particular killer, I think 303 00:21:25,681 --> 00:21:30,481 Speaker 1: he actually left quite a few psychological hints there, and 304 00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: in both the material and its organizational rather disarray. This 305 00:21:37,120 --> 00:21:41,360 Speaker 1: is fury and throwing things to the side. It's like 306 00:21:41,481 --> 00:21:45,281 Speaker 1: he had an uncontrollable rage, hitting her once on the 307 00:21:45,360 --> 00:21:50,120 Speaker 1: head from behind. So just note and all the details 308 00:21:50,120 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: to go with that. Let's note Shirley would not have 309 00:21:53,001 --> 00:21:56,681 Speaker 1: cried out because she wouldn't have been expecting a hit 310 00:21:57,120 --> 00:22:02,160 Speaker 1: from behind when she goes down. To actually be able 311 00:22:02,241 --> 00:22:07,761 Speaker 1: to lift those concrete pieces means he had strength, because 312 00:22:07,921 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 1: I think they were like fourteen pounds. It's a heavy weight. 313 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:17,640 Speaker 1: He had a certain amount of physical strength. The site 314 00:22:18,120 --> 00:22:24,521 Speaker 1: was so disorganized that it suggests he didn't prepare. He 315 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:29,120 Speaker 1: didn't have a shovel and bury her. He didn't come 316 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:34,801 Speaker 1: along there with the intent to actually murder her. It 317 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,400 Speaker 1: looks more like he was trying to seduce her with 318 00:22:38,481 --> 00:22:42,801 Speaker 1: the three bottles of beer. Which it also looks like 319 00:22:43,120 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: because she was facing the head's downhill, it looks like 320 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: she was heading back to the car. She wanted to 321 00:22:50,321 --> 00:22:53,281 Speaker 1: go back to the car at the point, the very 322 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,400 Speaker 1: point he killed her or struck her on the head. 323 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:02,561 Speaker 1: This suggests rejection. She rejected him and his beer in 324 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: his advances. She wasn't interested, and that's true to the 325 00:23:07,321 --> 00:23:12,001 Speaker 1: statements of the parents. I think parents are often the 326 00:23:12,120 --> 00:23:17,881 Speaker 1: first suspects, understandably, but once they're eliminated, they really need 327 00:23:17,961 --> 00:23:21,721 Speaker 1: to be listened to because they know her better than anyone. 328 00:23:21,961 --> 00:23:25,121 Speaker 1: I've just got something in my mind that I didn't 329 00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:30,241 Speaker 1: put in the book. He held those bottles in his hand. 330 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:35,561 Speaker 1: If he's not prepared to kill her as in premeditated, 331 00:23:36,281 --> 00:23:42,841 Speaker 1: and it's this explosion of possibly humiliation at this rejection, 332 00:23:43,961 --> 00:23:48,441 Speaker 1: then he held the neck of the bottle and hit 333 00:23:48,481 --> 00:23:52,281 Speaker 1: her from behind. In those days, those bottles had the 334 00:23:52,321 --> 00:23:57,521 Speaker 1: metal caps, and if the police kept any of those 335 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,041 Speaker 1: metal caps, I'll bet you there's a trace of skin 336 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:06,161 Speaker 1: if they were stored correctly, his skin, not brs, would 337 00:24:06,201 --> 00:24:09,201 Speaker 1: be under the cap they were ridged. 338 00:24:09,921 --> 00:24:11,561 Speaker 2: That's a very good point, and we'll get to that. 339 00:24:11,561 --> 00:24:13,721 Speaker 2: I gin guess is really important about and the possible 340 00:24:13,761 --> 00:24:17,360 Speaker 2: resolution of the case even now. Yeah, but what I 341 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,360 Speaker 2: find fascinating here is most people would say is the 342 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,801 Speaker 2: motive sex? Well, there was no evidence that she was 343 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 2: raped or otherwise molested, But as you point out in 344 00:24:27,681 --> 00:24:31,521 Speaker 2: your book, just penetration, if we'd use that word, is 345 00:24:31,561 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 2: not a complete description of a sexual motive. There are 346 00:24:35,041 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 2: other reasons connected to power and control, but still render 347 00:24:39,521 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 2: this a sexual motive. As you say, she could well 348 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,201 Speaker 2: have rejected his advances and he reacts with rage. 349 00:24:48,561 --> 00:24:53,481 Speaker 1: Yes, now hey's older, and we know because she got 350 00:24:53,521 --> 00:24:57,640 Speaker 1: into the car, most likely with someone she knew, because 351 00:24:57,721 --> 00:25:01,801 Speaker 1: that's in keeping with what we know of Shirley. This 352 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:06,281 Speaker 1: is someone who had focused on her for quite a while, 353 00:25:06,441 --> 00:25:10,801 Speaker 1: I would say, and in making advances and wanting to 354 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:15,041 Speaker 1: sit there and give alcohol to an underage kid, she 355 00:25:15,201 --> 00:25:21,881 Speaker 1: is a kid. Then the rejection for him was phenomenal 356 00:25:22,561 --> 00:25:27,321 Speaker 1: and so he flipped. Basically, that's right. 357 00:25:27,441 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 2: And to come along story short, there's a number of 358 00:25:30,721 --> 00:25:33,680 Speaker 2: people who were going to this birthday party down on 359 00:25:33,761 --> 00:25:36,521 Speaker 2: Punt Road, Richmond. It was being held by one of 360 00:25:36,561 --> 00:25:39,321 Speaker 2: her work mates, Gavin Willoughby. There was a range of 361 00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:42,360 Speaker 2: other people from her workplace who were one by one 362 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,921 Speaker 2: eliminated by police back in the day, and I think 363 00:25:44,961 --> 00:25:48,281 Speaker 2: you agree broadly that they don't really fit. But there 364 00:25:48,360 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 2: was one person who was never really eliminated, never really 365 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:56,161 Speaker 2: interviewed by the police, and that was her boss at 366 00:25:56,241 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 2: GJ Coles. She worked in the tinware department at GJ 367 00:25:59,801 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 2: Coles in Burke Street, and her boss, there was a 368 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 2: guy called Kevin who was He was the brother of 369 00:26:07,281 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 2: the man having the birthday party. But what else did 370 00:26:09,681 --> 00:26:11,801 Speaker 2: you know about Kevin Kevin? 371 00:26:11,961 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 1: Okay, he supervised Shirley, so he worked closely together with 372 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 1: Shirley in the ten department. Now, with Kevin, there's not 373 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,360 Speaker 1: much written about him. But I did think that with 374 00:26:24,521 --> 00:26:29,201 Speaker 1: the ferocity of this attack and the lack of control 375 00:26:29,561 --> 00:26:35,561 Speaker 1: and explosive nature of the killer's actions, which I might 376 00:26:35,721 --> 00:26:41,041 Speaker 1: add this kind of lack of control and humiliation susceptibility 377 00:26:41,481 --> 00:26:47,041 Speaker 1: to humiliation makes him fairly an insecure kind of character, 378 00:26:47,761 --> 00:26:53,281 Speaker 1: fairly of weak character. To be insulted at a fourteen 379 00:26:53,360 --> 00:26:57,400 Speaker 1: year old puts him a little older. Anyway, back to 380 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:01,880 Speaker 1: Kevin Willoughby, I started delving around, digging around, trying to 381 00:27:01,961 --> 00:27:07,160 Speaker 1: find more about him, and I figured that someone with 382 00:27:07,281 --> 00:27:12,160 Speaker 1: this kind of anger would have actually committed that a 383 00:27:12,521 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 1: similar or some kind of crime like this in the background, 384 00:27:17,481 --> 00:27:22,801 Speaker 1: or tortured animals or live buyers, or have been in 385 00:27:22,921 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: the theft. Because he's displaying a sense of entitlement, so 386 00:27:29,721 --> 00:27:33,881 Speaker 1: he felt entitled to Shirley, and when she rejected him, 387 00:27:34,241 --> 00:27:41,681 Speaker 1: that's when he exploded. If we work from that hypothesis, 388 00:27:41,921 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 1: there must be something else in his past. 389 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,441 Speaker 2: I think you've gone beyond what was in the evidence, 390 00:27:48,120 --> 00:27:50,360 Speaker 2: in the question, in the papers, and so forth. You 391 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 2: actually spoke to a friend of Shirley's, Maureen, who told 392 00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,041 Speaker 2: you that Shirley wanted to change her job because some 393 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:04,041 Speaker 2: of her workplace was making things awkward for her. She 394 00:28:04,120 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 2: said he was mad married, and there you have another 395 00:28:07,801 --> 00:28:11,160 Speaker 2: raise of the stakes. If it was Kevin Willoughby, then 396 00:28:11,561 --> 00:28:16,761 Speaker 2: here's another reason to fear the consequences of what's happened 397 00:28:16,921 --> 00:28:17,801 Speaker 2: at Mount Martha. 398 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:24,801 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely right. So it's not just if this guy's married, 399 00:28:25,441 --> 00:28:30,880 Speaker 1: it could ruin his marriage. So there's divorce, there's more 400 00:28:31,041 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: humiliation in that that will become public knowledge. There's the 401 00:28:35,201 --> 00:28:40,801 Speaker 1: loss of his job, there's the huge connection to Shirley. 402 00:28:41,281 --> 00:28:47,601 Speaker 1: This guy's pedophile. Basically a killer and a pedophile. Extremely 403 00:28:48,001 --> 00:28:48,521 Speaker 1: don't true. 404 00:28:48,961 --> 00:28:51,161 Speaker 2: And I think what also makes it difficult now to 405 00:28:51,321 --> 00:28:55,081 Speaker 2: determine this is that police didn't interview him, and the 406 00:28:55,121 --> 00:28:58,361 Speaker 2: party goers did not say whether he was at the 407 00:28:58,401 --> 00:29:01,321 Speaker 2: party and if so, what time he got there. But 408 00:29:01,361 --> 00:29:03,801 Speaker 2: you can back it in that he was probably there 409 00:29:03,841 --> 00:29:06,321 Speaker 2: at some state because this was his brother's day, Dan's birthday. 410 00:29:06,801 --> 00:29:10,641 Speaker 2: So Evan Willoughby unknown to the police, and they should 411 00:29:10,641 --> 00:29:14,641 Speaker 2: have realized this that he had a criminal background, and 412 00:29:14,721 --> 00:29:19,521 Speaker 2: even the lead detective in the murder, Donnelly, had dealt 413 00:29:19,561 --> 00:29:23,601 Speaker 2: with him earlier in a series of petty thefts and 414 00:29:23,641 --> 00:29:24,161 Speaker 2: so forth. 415 00:29:24,681 --> 00:29:28,681 Speaker 1: That was a shock. When I searched around, he came 416 00:29:28,961 --> 00:29:32,881 Speaker 1: up in another inquest and it was a shock to 417 00:29:32,961 --> 00:29:37,081 Speaker 1: me that Danelly was one of two police officers who'd 418 00:29:37,121 --> 00:29:42,361 Speaker 1: actually interviewed Kevin Willoughby much earlier. And that's the point 419 00:29:42,641 --> 00:29:46,241 Speaker 1: it really was much earlier. He was a ten year 420 00:29:46,241 --> 00:29:51,401 Speaker 1: old boy, blonde hair, and later on he suddenly has 421 00:29:51,681 --> 00:29:56,681 Speaker 1: darker hair, and it's eighteen years later. Who on Earth's 422 00:29:56,761 --> 00:30:01,521 Speaker 1: going to recognize him? Dannelly didn't recognize him, and I 423 00:30:01,601 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: think that's understandable. He also wasn't the senior officer in 424 00:30:07,321 --> 00:30:11,801 Speaker 1: that particular investigation, but he did interview him, and it 425 00:30:11,881 --> 00:30:19,761 Speaker 1: was a bit of an awful inquest as well, involving Death's. 426 00:30:17,561 --> 00:30:20,361 Speaker 2: Not because this is back in nineteen thirty five, when 427 00:30:20,921 --> 00:30:23,841 Speaker 2: an eight year old boy is pulled from a creek 428 00:30:23,881 --> 00:30:28,561 Speaker 2: in Hawthorne, and this is December nineteen thirty five, and 429 00:30:28,601 --> 00:30:33,121 Speaker 2: of course Kevin Willoughby is on the scene then as well. 430 00:30:33,321 --> 00:30:38,521 Speaker 2: They're playing together at Gardener Creek in Hawthorne and Bobby Glead, 431 00:30:38,841 --> 00:30:43,561 Speaker 2: the victim, ends up dead. Do you think Kevin Willoughby 432 00:30:43,561 --> 00:30:45,921 Speaker 2: had anything to do with Bobby's death? 433 00:30:46,681 --> 00:30:49,401 Speaker 1: I certainly think he had a lot to do with 434 00:30:49,521 --> 00:30:55,561 Speaker 1: his death. Listen to this. He watched his friend two 435 00:30:55,601 --> 00:31:01,361 Speaker 1: years younger than himself drowning in that creek when someone else, 436 00:31:01,681 --> 00:31:04,921 Speaker 1: an adult, was on the other side of the creek 437 00:31:05,241 --> 00:31:09,161 Speaker 1: mowing grass. He didn't call out for help. He watched 438 00:31:09,721 --> 00:31:16,321 Speaker 1: for fifteen minutes, fifteen minutes until his friend little Bobby 439 00:31:16,361 --> 00:31:20,761 Speaker 1: didn't come up anymore. But it doesn't stop there. At 440 00:31:20,801 --> 00:31:25,881 Speaker 1: that point, after fifteen minutes, he didn't jump into the 441 00:31:25,881 --> 00:31:29,161 Speaker 1: creek to pull him out. He went over to his 442 00:31:29,361 --> 00:31:35,401 Speaker 1: friend's clothes, took money from his pockets, and then stumped 443 00:31:35,441 --> 00:31:41,841 Speaker 1: them into the mud. He then denied knowing to the 444 00:31:42,001 --> 00:31:46,441 Speaker 1: very family of Bobby and to the police. He denied 445 00:31:46,521 --> 00:31:51,201 Speaker 1: knowing the whereabouts of Bobby, and yet he led them 446 00:31:51,241 --> 00:31:54,641 Speaker 1: all on a wild goose chase, so one he quite 447 00:31:54,841 --> 00:31:58,921 Speaker 1: enjoyed leading them around and saying, oh, well, you know 448 00:31:59,561 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 1: he was down here when I last saw him. He 449 00:32:02,521 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: could be there, He could be there. It's disgraceful, and 450 00:32:08,521 --> 00:32:13,481 Speaker 1: I must say in the inquest the coroner also had 451 00:32:13,801 --> 00:32:18,401 Speaker 1: enormous skepticism of this. It remains an open case. 452 00:32:19,441 --> 00:32:22,841 Speaker 2: And I think it's certainly very odd and very suspicious. 453 00:32:22,881 --> 00:32:24,761 Speaker 2: At the same time, I think you make the point 454 00:32:25,201 --> 00:32:28,001 Speaker 2: that his behavior at ten years of age suggests a 455 00:32:28,081 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 2: curiosity for watching other people's suffering. There's something not quite 456 00:32:33,801 --> 00:32:34,681 Speaker 2: right with this kid. 457 00:32:35,841 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a trait of young people the future psychopaths. 458 00:32:41,521 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: If you like hurting animals or watching this kind of 459 00:32:47,481 --> 00:32:54,201 Speaker 1: event with their best friend, and also stealing. He stole 460 00:32:54,481 --> 00:32:59,881 Speaker 1: money because he felt entitled to it. He also lied 461 00:33:00,881 --> 00:33:05,881 Speaker 1: to possibly protect himself, though he did get sprung, and 462 00:33:06,121 --> 00:33:13,001 Speaker 1: he felt amused perhaps at leading people on a wild 463 00:33:13,081 --> 00:33:18,761 Speaker 1: goose chase, watching their pain and suffering. The family he 464 00:33:19,081 --> 00:33:22,921 Speaker 1: led them down to the creek and didn't show them 465 00:33:23,201 --> 00:33:28,121 Speaker 1: where their son was. I think he got off on 466 00:33:28,241 --> 00:33:29,281 Speaker 1: other people's pain. 467 00:33:29,641 --> 00:33:32,881 Speaker 2: That's very telling because, as you pointed out earlier, there 468 00:33:32,961 --> 00:33:37,481 Speaker 2: tends to be predicate acts in the past which provide 469 00:33:37,481 --> 00:33:42,241 Speaker 2: a pathway towards someone's offending at a higher level and 470 00:33:42,721 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 2: that behavior then watching someone else's suffering the entitlement to 471 00:33:48,561 --> 00:33:53,201 Speaker 2: take the boy's money, and then over the next few years, 472 00:33:54,041 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 2: as he gets older, he starts to steal more. He 473 00:33:57,001 --> 00:34:00,161 Speaker 2: starts to break into factories. It's a string of petty 474 00:34:00,241 --> 00:34:04,281 Speaker 2: larceny charges, and so you're starting to see somebody who 475 00:34:04,321 --> 00:34:07,641 Speaker 2: was very as you say, entitled. 476 00:34:08,041 --> 00:34:13,681 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's one thing with these petty larcenees. At the time, 477 00:34:13,761 --> 00:34:19,321 Speaker 1: after the war there were rations in place, and during 478 00:34:20,041 --> 00:34:23,401 Speaker 1: the war he actually went into the food tent and 479 00:34:23,601 --> 00:34:28,881 Speaker 1: stole food for himself. I mean, really, it's a case 480 00:34:28,921 --> 00:34:33,521 Speaker 1: of how low can you go in petty larceny. Everybody 481 00:34:33,721 --> 00:34:38,081 Speaker 1: was hungry during the war. These were soldiers and he 482 00:34:38,241 --> 00:34:43,161 Speaker 1: took their food, the protectors of the country. He had 483 00:34:43,361 --> 00:34:44,481 Speaker 1: no conscience. 484 00:34:45,401 --> 00:34:48,001 Speaker 2: We didn't have a record of violent behavior before this. 485 00:34:48,001 --> 00:34:51,281 Speaker 2: But as you rightly point out, though, here's somebody who 486 00:34:51,321 --> 00:34:55,841 Speaker 2: has a strong sense of entitlement. His ego is very 487 00:34:55,881 --> 00:35:01,281 Speaker 2: strong and he is able to justify this. Let's look 488 00:35:01,281 --> 00:35:04,401 Speaker 2: at your theory. You can imagine a situation where he 489 00:35:04,601 --> 00:35:08,001 Speaker 2: knows that Shirley is to come to the party, it's 490 00:35:08,001 --> 00:35:11,801 Speaker 2: his brother's party. He may well indeed know that Ronald 491 00:35:12,161 --> 00:35:15,361 Speaker 2: Holmes is going to pick up Shirley from a railway station. 492 00:35:15,881 --> 00:35:18,481 Speaker 2: It's not inconceivable that he could have either been driving 493 00:35:18,521 --> 00:35:23,321 Speaker 2: past by accident or design, picks her up and decides, no, 494 00:35:24,161 --> 00:35:26,521 Speaker 2: I won't take you to the party. I'll take you 495 00:35:26,561 --> 00:35:31,201 Speaker 2: to a place. Because Kevin Willoughby had a connection to 496 00:35:31,361 --> 00:35:33,761 Speaker 2: the area near Mount Martha, didn't. 497 00:35:33,521 --> 00:35:37,561 Speaker 1: He Yes, a lot of them did, though, so did 498 00:35:38,121 --> 00:35:41,321 Speaker 1: Ronald Holmes. A lot of the people in this because 499 00:35:41,321 --> 00:35:45,081 Speaker 1: that was the holiday, the place to go. I'd just 500 00:35:45,281 --> 00:35:50,521 Speaker 1: like to say on that that many people blamed the 501 00:35:50,641 --> 00:35:56,481 Speaker 1: landowner there and Merv Stanton I think was his name, 502 00:35:57,321 --> 00:36:00,201 Speaker 1: and it was assumed when we went out to Mount 503 00:36:00,241 --> 00:36:04,561 Speaker 1: Martha that he would be the person we would find. 504 00:36:04,681 --> 00:36:09,281 Speaker 1: Did it. People actually told us he did it. Well, no, no, 505 00:36:09,361 --> 00:36:11,921 Speaker 1: I don't think so, not at all. I think that 506 00:36:12,001 --> 00:36:15,921 Speaker 1: guy Merv suffered for many years. You know, it's not 507 00:36:16,081 --> 00:36:21,841 Speaker 1: just it goes so far beyond the victim and those 508 00:36:21,881 --> 00:36:26,241 Speaker 1: who die. It impacts their family, the people who are suspected, 509 00:36:26,281 --> 00:36:31,241 Speaker 1: and it's never resolved. It's a ripple effect. It is 510 00:36:32,241 --> 00:36:35,401 Speaker 1: brutal for so many generations. 511 00:36:36,561 --> 00:36:39,161 Speaker 2: It does. And I think to be wrongly accused of 512 00:36:39,201 --> 00:36:41,201 Speaker 2: something like this will be henus and would follow you. 513 00:36:41,681 --> 00:36:43,681 Speaker 2: And you know, I think all those that were that 514 00:36:43,761 --> 00:36:45,921 Speaker 2: fell into the spotlight had to deal with it. But 515 00:36:45,961 --> 00:36:49,401 Speaker 2: I guess Kevin Willoughby was never in the spotlight, so 516 00:36:49,481 --> 00:36:52,721 Speaker 2: he was able to go the rest of his life 517 00:36:52,761 --> 00:36:56,401 Speaker 2: without him being questioned. I think he's the best possible suspect. 518 00:36:56,561 --> 00:36:59,921 Speaker 2: I mean, we can't rule out that a complete stranger 519 00:37:00,401 --> 00:37:03,921 Speaker 2: happened to see Shirley waiting at the train station on 520 00:37:03,961 --> 00:37:07,681 Speaker 2: her own offered her a ride, But to me, it's 521 00:37:07,761 --> 00:37:10,961 Speaker 2: highly unlikely, based on what we know about Shirley that 522 00:37:11,081 --> 00:37:14,201 Speaker 2: she's a young girl, she's nervous, she's not experienced. She 523 00:37:14,401 --> 00:37:16,721 Speaker 2: was told never get in a vehicle with a stranger, 524 00:37:17,081 --> 00:37:20,961 Speaker 2: and those things were powerful admonitions back in those days. 525 00:37:21,441 --> 00:37:27,161 Speaker 2: So I think suspicion rightly falls on Kevin Willoughby. You 526 00:37:27,281 --> 00:37:31,441 Speaker 2: made a strong case from his personality, the opportunity, the motive. 527 00:37:31,841 --> 00:37:36,361 Speaker 2: It's all there. The evidence may still be within the 528 00:37:36,441 --> 00:37:39,161 Speaker 2: coffers of Victoria Police two day. In fact, when they 529 00:37:39,161 --> 00:37:41,121 Speaker 2: set up the cold case unit back in I think 530 00:37:41,161 --> 00:37:44,521 Speaker 2: about twenty ten or twenty twelve, Shirley Collins was one 531 00:37:44,521 --> 00:37:47,681 Speaker 2: of the key cold cases they wanted to focus on, 532 00:37:48,201 --> 00:37:51,881 Speaker 2: and I remember retired Senior Sergeant Ron Iddalls describing that 533 00:37:51,921 --> 00:37:55,321 Speaker 2: this is one of the unfinished cases of his career 534 00:37:55,681 --> 00:37:58,561 Speaker 2: and obviously a number of police officers. But you look 535 00:37:58,601 --> 00:38:02,201 Speaker 2: at what may be held in the cold case fridge 536 00:38:02,401 --> 00:38:05,481 Speaker 2: at MacLeod the Forensic Services unit here in Melbourne, and 537 00:38:05,521 --> 00:38:09,561 Speaker 2: you think, is there a piece of her clothing, Is 538 00:38:09,601 --> 00:38:13,601 Speaker 2: there a piece of the concrete or the bottle that 539 00:38:13,681 --> 00:38:16,601 Speaker 2: was used to kill her? And could that now be 540 00:38:16,801 --> 00:38:21,961 Speaker 2: tested and established to a connection with Kevin Willoughby. 541 00:38:22,881 --> 00:38:27,881 Speaker 1: Well, I think so, because techniques have changed. I mean 542 00:38:28,001 --> 00:38:30,521 Speaker 1: that's one thing to say for Danelli. He bought in 543 00:38:30,721 --> 00:38:35,921 Speaker 1: all these experts for fingerprinting, new methods with ultra violet light, 544 00:38:36,161 --> 00:38:41,801 Speaker 1: for picking up fluorescent images, if you like dressing up 545 00:38:41,841 --> 00:38:45,201 Speaker 1: a model. That was the first time that that had 546 00:38:45,241 --> 00:38:49,481 Speaker 1: been done. A radio interview to call in for public help. 547 00:38:50,081 --> 00:38:54,641 Speaker 1: But I think if we look at the physical evidence 548 00:38:54,721 --> 00:39:01,321 Speaker 1: that they did collect back then, bottle glass fingerprints, possibly 549 00:39:01,521 --> 00:39:07,001 Speaker 1: even if the killer has blood, possibly because glass can cut. 550 00:39:07,281 --> 00:39:11,561 Speaker 1: What about the concrete pieces skin goes off onto that 551 00:39:11,681 --> 00:39:15,561 Speaker 1: These are methods unknown back then and even until recently, 552 00:39:16,081 --> 00:39:20,641 Speaker 1: wouldn't have yielded so much information. But this thing about 553 00:39:20,761 --> 00:39:26,681 Speaker 1: the crown top. These were unopened bottles, and so it's 554 00:39:26,761 --> 00:39:31,041 Speaker 1: what might have gone between the ridges of his hand 555 00:39:31,321 --> 00:39:38,401 Speaker 1: in holding it. There's so much evidence in the physical evidence. 556 00:39:38,961 --> 00:39:42,001 Speaker 1: There's so much information that we can still get. 557 00:39:42,161 --> 00:39:44,641 Speaker 2: I think it's a very strong point because we are 558 00:39:44,681 --> 00:39:48,561 Speaker 2: seeing that we're moving into an era where cold cases 559 00:39:48,601 --> 00:39:53,601 Speaker 2: can be solved by the use of this forensic investigative 560 00:39:53,761 --> 00:39:58,201 Speaker 2: genealogical where people can go with the slightest piece of 561 00:39:58,321 --> 00:40:03,481 Speaker 2: DNA and then build a family tree around that DNA 562 00:40:04,121 --> 00:40:09,961 Speaker 2: and come at potential suspects. Even today, and obviously Kevin 563 00:40:10,001 --> 00:40:12,641 Speaker 2: Willoughby died some time ago, the early two thousands, I believe, 564 00:40:12,721 --> 00:40:15,521 Speaker 2: so he's not going to give any DNA, but living 565 00:40:15,601 --> 00:40:19,401 Speaker 2: relatives certainly could. And I think we're going to see 566 00:40:19,401 --> 00:40:22,121 Speaker 2: more and more of these cases sold, and it's going 567 00:40:22,161 --> 00:40:26,721 Speaker 2: to come from work like yours, where people are raising suspicions, 568 00:40:27,081 --> 00:40:30,721 Speaker 2: looking at the evidence again and suggesting it's worth the 569 00:40:30,721 --> 00:40:34,761 Speaker 2: cold case detectives having another crack at this because old 570 00:40:34,801 --> 00:40:37,681 Speaker 2: Donnelly said in nineteen fifty six, I've not written this 571 00:40:37,801 --> 00:40:40,481 Speaker 2: case off as unsolvable, and I tend to agree with 572 00:40:40,561 --> 00:40:42,721 Speaker 2: him even more today than back in nineteen fifty six. 573 00:40:43,521 --> 00:40:48,041 Speaker 1: Do you know what he did, Inspector Dannelly, even after 574 00:40:48,361 --> 00:40:52,841 Speaker 1: he semi retired someone else had taken over the case, 575 00:40:53,361 --> 00:40:57,881 Speaker 1: he actually sat down and wrote an article and published 576 00:40:57,881 --> 00:41:03,041 Speaker 1: it requesting that someone else take up the gauntlet, that 577 00:41:03,241 --> 00:41:09,361 Speaker 1: someone else pursued case of Shirley Collins's murder. I mean, 578 00:41:09,681 --> 00:41:14,401 Speaker 1: how devoted and dedicated was that guy. It's not just 579 00:41:14,521 --> 00:41:19,441 Speaker 1: that he really did turn over every stone available to 580 00:41:19,721 --> 00:41:25,561 Speaker 1: him in the nineteen seventies available to him, but he 581 00:41:25,641 --> 00:41:30,841 Speaker 1: remained devoted. And on that point, if police are carrying 582 00:41:31,161 --> 00:41:36,921 Speaker 1: these sorts of burdens with them after their retirement, they 583 00:41:37,041 --> 00:41:42,641 Speaker 1: really might need support. It's just another layer to this 584 00:41:42,721 --> 00:41:48,721 Speaker 1: book that police do do their best in most instances, 585 00:41:48,801 --> 00:41:53,641 Speaker 1: certainly in this one, and this guy carried that for life, 586 00:41:53,761 --> 00:41:57,161 Speaker 1: and so did the other police officer in Romana really did. 587 00:41:57,241 --> 00:41:59,201 Speaker 2: And I think everyone in this case did their best, 588 00:41:59,281 --> 00:42:01,401 Speaker 2: and you can't say that all the time. And I 589 00:42:01,401 --> 00:42:04,081 Speaker 2: think you've also done your best to keep this case 590 00:42:04,121 --> 00:42:06,321 Speaker 2: alive because a lot of the when I saw that 591 00:42:06,401 --> 00:42:09,481 Speaker 2: newspaper headline and I discovered that Shirley's murder had ever 592 00:42:09,521 --> 00:42:13,081 Speaker 2: been so if you think who still cares about these 593 00:42:13,081 --> 00:42:17,521 Speaker 2: cold cases all these years later, there's no statute of 594 00:42:17,561 --> 00:42:23,721 Speaker 2: limitation on murder. And I think your book Inconceivable Malice 595 00:42:23,801 --> 00:42:27,041 Speaker 2: could be the basis of a new investigation if Victoria 596 00:42:27,081 --> 00:42:31,161 Speaker 2: Police is prepared to step into the future and run 597 00:42:31,201 --> 00:42:35,521 Speaker 2: these DNA off possible exhibits now. And I think this 598 00:42:35,601 --> 00:42:37,401 Speaker 2: is really a long shot, but you could get that 599 00:42:37,521 --> 00:42:40,641 Speaker 2: thousand pounds from the truth newspaper, Doctor Louise Steading, I 600 00:42:40,641 --> 00:42:43,641 Speaker 2: think you might be ah if we did. 601 00:42:44,001 --> 00:42:46,761 Speaker 1: I put it to another case to try and get 602 00:42:46,801 --> 00:42:50,081 Speaker 1: the same sort of thing I was thinking to, you know, 603 00:42:51,161 --> 00:42:56,961 Speaker 1: even the sister of Shirley Collins foster sister. Her sister 604 00:42:57,401 --> 00:43:01,801 Speaker 1: was still alive, and in reference to the Colins family, 605 00:43:02,441 --> 00:43:05,361 Speaker 1: she wrote to me and said, thank you, thank you 606 00:43:05,481 --> 00:43:10,481 Speaker 1: for helping me understand why my parents were the way 607 00:43:10,561 --> 00:43:14,841 Speaker 1: they were. And I just that really struck me. This 608 00:43:14,921 --> 00:43:21,081 Speaker 1: is an elderly woman, the two brothers had deceased, probably 609 00:43:21,201 --> 00:43:25,081 Speaker 1: the other sister who's now deceased, and I thought, wow, 610 00:43:25,361 --> 00:43:29,961 Speaker 1: this really matters. This really matters to family and friends 611 00:43:30,281 --> 00:43:33,921 Speaker 1: who are still there and they are Thank. 612 00:43:33,761 --> 00:43:35,561 Speaker 2: You so much for your time to wit, Louise. It's 613 00:43:35,561 --> 00:43:37,921 Speaker 2: been fantastic to talk to you about these theories, your 614 00:43:37,961 --> 00:43:40,161 Speaker 2: hard work on this case, and I really do thank 615 00:43:40,201 --> 00:43:40,601 Speaker 2: you very. 616 00:43:40,561 --> 00:43:42,481 Speaker 1: Much, thanks for having me. 617 00:43:45,881 --> 00:43:50,041 Speaker 2: That's doctor Louise Steading on the murder of Shirley Collins 618 00:43:50,161 --> 00:43:53,401 Speaker 2: back in nineteen fifty three. She never had the chance 619 00:43:53,441 --> 00:43:56,841 Speaker 2: to grow up, a life, have children. Her life was 620 00:43:56,881 --> 00:44:00,001 Speaker 2: cut short brutally, and there's still a chance to solve 621 00:44:00,001 --> 00:44:03,681 Speaker 2: these kinds of cases. The community deserves it, and the 622 00:44:03,721 --> 00:44:07,241 Speaker 2: loved ones of Shirley Lee Collins deserve it as well. 623 00:44:07,641 --> 00:44:10,521 Speaker 2: Let's hope Victoria Police can go into its cold case 624 00:44:11,201 --> 00:44:14,761 Speaker 2: freezer there at the Forensic Services Unit. Pull out these 625 00:44:14,801 --> 00:44:18,081 Speaker 2: exhibits and run them again, because you never know there 626 00:44:18,121 --> 00:44:20,881 Speaker 2: could be an answer there. If you have any cases 627 00:44:20,881 --> 00:44:22,521 Speaker 2: that you think we should be following up on Real 628 00:44:22,561 --> 00:44:25,001 Speaker 2: Crime with Adam Shann, get in touch please. You can 629 00:44:25,001 --> 00:44:27,641 Speaker 2: also crawl crime Stoppers one hundred, triple three, triple zero. 630 00:44:27,721 --> 00:44:30,561 Speaker 2: You can send me an email Adam Shann writer at 631 00:44:30,561 --> 00:44:34,721 Speaker 2: gmail dot com. This has been Adam Shan for Real Crime. 632 00:44:34,801 --> 00:44:35,641 Speaker 2: Thank you for listening.