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Speaker 1: There's been a bush for this for quite some years,

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Speaker 1: and it seems to have moved a step forward. Frank Pangelo,

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Speaker 1: Upper House MP has been trying to get CCTV cameras

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Speaker 1: in the bedrooms of residents in aged care facilities, and

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Speaker 1: you recall going back some years, certainly Oakton is the

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Speaker 1: big turning point in wanting to get something done, but

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Speaker 1: even in other nursing homes too, cases of abuse reported

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Speaker 1: and investigated by police. Frank Pangelo, Good morning, where's this

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Speaker 1: that at the moment?

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Speaker 2: Good morning, I'm introducing the bill again and it's a

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Speaker 2: bit different to the last one. And just briefly going

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Speaker 2: back on that last one, it was stalled because the

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Speaker 2: Liberal government at the time decided to run a trial

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Speaker 2: in a couple of state run facilities and it was

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Speaker 2: a bungled exercise. It just was terrible the way it

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Speaker 2: was conducted, and it was fast and it came to nothing.

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Speaker 2: In between then and now, we've had the Royal Commission

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Speaker 2: into Age Care Abuse making a number of recommendations to

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Speaker 2: clean up the act of many nursing homes. But it's

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Speaker 2: quite clear, Matthew, from the complaints that I get. I'm

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Speaker 2: sure that people call on your program. It's still going

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Speaker 2: on in some nursing homes. There's reports of people being

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Speaker 2: abused of neglect and also the standard of care in

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Speaker 2: these places. And I decided I'm going to go back

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Speaker 2: this time, and the legislation will actually cover the Listening

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Speaker 2: Devices Act, And what that will mean is that families

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Speaker 2: will have an opportunity to opt in and place cameras

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Speaker 2: in the bedrooms or the rooms of their loved ones

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Speaker 2: in nursing homes, and they will also be required to

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Speaker 2: let the manager of the nursing homes know that it's happening.

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Speaker 2: But they'll be able to do it to get some

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Speaker 2: peace of mind and ensure that their loved ones and

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Speaker 2: other residents are getting the standard of care that they

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Speaker 2: expect from these places. It's still happening, and I think

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Speaker 2: we need to do more to prevent it. And I

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Speaker 2: think if this eventuates, and I hope a wild's time,

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Speaker 2: I think we'll see the standard of care increase as well.

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Speaker 1: Matthew, how do you know it's still happening in more reports?

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Speaker 1: Have we heard of anyone?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, of course, yeah. I'm getting reports on a

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Speaker 2: daily basis, and not only not only of abuse of

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Speaker 2: residents and also neglect of them. But I even get

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Speaker 2: people sending me pictures of the swaps that are served

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Speaker 2: up to people as their meal. I had just one

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Speaker 2: the other day, an elderly resident who is eighty five

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Speaker 2: in a nursing home. He forgot to Billy in his

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Speaker 2: menu for his dinner. It turns up in the dinner

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Speaker 2: room and what is presented in front of him who

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Speaker 2: slices of toaste and seriously. And there have been other

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Speaker 2: instances there, and I have other instances of people coming

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Speaker 2: to me telling me about neglect. There's also issues with

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Speaker 2: and it's an issue that has only slightly being touched

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Speaker 2: upon recently, but there are problems in some nursing homes

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Speaker 2: with residents and their medication. Either the residents are forgetful

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Speaker 2: and not taking them and other cases where they overdose,

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Speaker 2: or it's simply forgotten by the staff to give the

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Speaker 2: residents their medication. I've been shown a list of the

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Speaker 2: number of ambulance callouts to nursing homes on a daily basis.

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Speaker 2: You'll be shocked. You'll be absolutely shocked. And those callouts

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Speaker 2: are because of the issues with medication.

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Speaker 1: So look, I think pick up on all that know,

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Speaker 1: the food, the medication. I mean they're there.

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Speaker 2: They can no, no, they can they can't. Now. You know,

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Speaker 2: if the previous Marshall government had followed through and used

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Speaker 2: the system that was developed in the UK by a

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Speaker 2: company called care Protect, they would have seen how effective

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Speaker 2: it is. It's very effective in the UK everything from

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Speaker 2: detecting abuse, neglect, balls and it's real time monitoring as well.

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Speaker 2: And auld only have cost twenty five dollars per resident

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Speaker 2: a week. It would have been quite cheap. But the

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Speaker 2: South Australian well SA Health at the time decided we're

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Speaker 2: going to go off on their own. They spent five

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Speaker 2: hundred thousand dollars which was given by the federal government

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Speaker 2: to conduct this trial using a company that had no

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Speaker 2: experience in age care or it was install security cameras.

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Speaker 1: It was appalling and the end what about privacy? What

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Speaker 1: about privacy for these people?

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Speaker 2: Well, personally if they had adopted the care for Tech program,

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Speaker 2: there are cameras now that can actually hide that or

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Speaker 2: blur it or you know that there is AI technology

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Speaker 2: now in some cameras that you can do that. But

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Speaker 2: in other instances of the families, of course, they may

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Speaker 2: not be able to afford the sophisticated cameras, but at

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Speaker 2: least with the knowledge and the knowledge of the residents

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Speaker 2: that it's there, and also the fact that the staff

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Speaker 2: will know that it's there, you can protect that as well.

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Speaker 1: Where's the footage going? Is it staying within the nursing

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Speaker 1: home or is it being fed to a central place?

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Speaker 2: Well, no, because it will belong No, the footage would

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Speaker 2: belong to the family. So what it is is it

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Speaker 2: gives the family of the resident the opportunity to opt

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Speaker 2: in and place a camera in the in their bedroom

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Speaker 2: or in their room, and of course they would have

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Speaker 2: ownership of it. So I'll have to negotiate with the

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Speaker 2: management of the nursing home to let them know it's fair. Now,

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Speaker 2: a good nursing home or other facility should have no

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Speaker 2: problem with it. If they are confident that everything is

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Speaker 2: all above board and it's working smoothly, they shouldn't have

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Speaker 2: an issue with it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, And the footage then that was my NeXT's question.

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Speaker 1: But if it's going straight to the family, you'd want

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Speaker 1: to keep it for a while, I imagine, because you

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Speaker 1: may not notice the problem for a while. You know,

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Speaker 1: if it's bruising you may not see it for you know,

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Speaker 1: a long time. You want to go back and see

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Speaker 1: where it's come from.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, but also these days, Matthew, there's Wi Fi

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Speaker 2: and families can actually monitor their loved ones from home

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Speaker 2: in real time, so you can see what's going on.

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Speaker 2: You know that family members cannot be with their loved

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Speaker 2: ones twenty four to seven, and a lot of these

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Speaker 2: instances occur when nobody's around, and you know, this is

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Speaker 2: just a step to ensure that there is another level

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Speaker 2: of security for the family and these elderly citizens, right

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Speaker 2: that we need to respect in their last days.

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Speaker 1: Are you confident of getting this up this time?

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Speaker 2: Well, look, yeah, Look, I don't see any reason why

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Speaker 2: the government or the you know, the opposition would want

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Speaker 2: to oppose something that will actually be of benefit to

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Speaker 2: residents in age care facilities. It's all about ensuring that

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Speaker 2: these people have a high standard of care and that

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Speaker 2: you know, nursing homes are abiding by their obligations.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, I have you the abortion vote last night

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Speaker 1: failing by one vote. Your thoughts on that.

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Speaker 2: Well, look, there was a lot of undignified behavior last night,

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Speaker 2: and I have to say it didn't get off to

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Speaker 2: a good start when the Attorney General launched into a

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Speaker 2: long and deep personal attack on the political motives of

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Speaker 2: the mover, Ben Hood. And look, I believe that Ben

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Speaker 2: is quite genuine in his desire to change some abharent

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Speaker 2: aspects of this built And I can tell you that

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Speaker 2: I supported Ben Hill. I made that quite open that

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Speaker 2: I am pro life. But there were more attacks on

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Speaker 2: Ben and his motives from you mostly the left A

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Speaker 2: line members in the chamber. And perhaps look that might

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Speaker 2: have had an influence on Jinglee in deciding to opt

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Speaker 2: out on her pair with Michelle Lensink, who just incidentally

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Speaker 2: earlier in the day was granted leave of absence until

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Speaker 2: the end of the year because of her diagnosis of cancer.

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Speaker 2: But things seemed to be going smoothly. You know, there

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Speaker 2: was a pack gallery and you know a little bit

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Speaker 2: rowdy occasionally, but they were well behaved until Russell Wordley

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Speaker 2: got up to speak. Now Russell doesn't normally speak a

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Speaker 2: long time, unlike me, but he seemed to be filibustering.

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Speaker 2: And then chaos started to breakout all around me, and

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Speaker 2: I started to see members being pulled out of the chamber.

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Speaker 2: You know, one of them was that Nval Tung though

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Speaker 2: there was yelling going on outside, and then you know,

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Speaker 2: when Tung came back and sat down, you know, another

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Speaker 2: member snarled in his face about you know, having to

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Speaker 2: take that air. And it was really starting to look

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Speaker 2: pretty ugly, I had to say. And then when I

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Speaker 2: realized what was going on, that Jin had pulled her

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Speaker 2: pair and they couldn't find another person to replace her

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Speaker 2: in order that it would balance things out and the

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Speaker 2: vote would go and the bill would go down. That's

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Speaker 2: when things got pretty bad and out of hand. And

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Speaker 2: you know, there was people scurrying left, right and center.

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Speaker 2: Tom kots and Tinas was in the chamber and then

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Speaker 2: he was outside and then I could hear yelling going on. Look,

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Speaker 2: it was just pretty bad. I had to say what transpired.

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Speaker 2: Ben Hood had no idea what was going on. And look,

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Speaker 2: I don't know whether Jing had been influenced by the

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Speaker 2: personal attacks that were going on. I don't know what

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Speaker 2: reasons worth for that, but some of the behavior that

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Speaker 2: followed was pretty appalling. When it looked like if the

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Speaker 2: bill succeeded going into a second reading, they would then

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Speaker 2: have to go into committee stage, and the opponents of

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Speaker 2: the bill wanted to stop that, and they were quite

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Speaker 2: busy trying to prevent that from happening. And unfortunately, you know,

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Speaker 2: Michelle Lindsay had to get into a lieuber to come

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Speaker 2: into Parliament House, which is why Russell Worthley was filibustering

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Speaker 2: in order to allow Michelle to get into Parliament and

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Speaker 2: be able to cast a vote which would have killed

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Speaker 2: the bill off at the second reading. And that really

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Speaker 2: is unfair on Michelle. I have to say that she

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Speaker 2: had to do that sort of thing. But look, that's politics. Said, Look,

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Speaker 2: it's not the first time it's happened. I mean I

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Speaker 2: heard the Attorney General to say that's the worst thing

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Speaker 2: he's ever seen that happened in the chamber. Well, you know,

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Speaker 2: I don't think time was as old as I am.

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Speaker 2: But I remember what happened with the Roxby Down Indenture Bill,

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Speaker 2: what happened with Etza, what happened with Pokey's when the

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Speaker 2: introduction of poking machines, when Labor members were chasing another

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Speaker 2: Labor member down the passageway, the Legislative Council to drag

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Speaker 2: him back in to vote to get the Pokeys through,

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Speaker 2: and they'll banging on his door and everything. So it's

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Speaker 2: not unusual that these things happen and that pressure is

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Speaker 2: brought to bear on members to change their view. Look, Matthew,

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Speaker 2: if it had gone through the second reading and into

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Speaker 2: the committee stage and Michelle had arrived in the in

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Speaker 2: the in the in the chamber, the bill will still

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Speaker 2: have been defeated by one vote. And look, as it

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Speaker 2: turned out, you know, Dennis Hood, who was a supporter

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Speaker 2: of the legislation, decided that he would take the pair,

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Speaker 2: and of course we didn't have the second reading. Now,

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Speaker 2: I don't know whether any other threats that were made.

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Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure there would have been met. Well, I

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Speaker 2: reckon there would have been. Well they would have said, well, look,

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Speaker 2: if you're going to behave this way when there are pairs,

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Speaker 2: forget it. Everything is off the table right now. This

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Speaker 2: has happened before in this place where you know, you know,

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Speaker 2: either of the Government of the day has has actually

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Speaker 2: threatened to pull pairing arrangements and stopped that. Now, I

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Speaker 2: wouldn't be surprised with hen that went down last night,

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Speaker 2: where we said, well, look, if you're going to do this,

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Speaker 2: you know, all bets are off because look, you know,

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Speaker 2: you expect things to be you know too, Convention and

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Speaker 2: in an honorable sort of way. Absolutely, And this descended

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Speaker 2: in a way that was, you know, on reflection, and

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Speaker 2: I think people reflect on it today. Some of the

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Speaker 2: things that went on last night shouldn't have happened. I mean,

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Speaker 2: you know, seeing a member have another member snarl in

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Speaker 2: a threatening way into his face I think was appalling. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was. It was a nice you know. Look, I

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Speaker 2: understand that that member later apologized for that behavior, but

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Speaker 2: that's not what you want to see in such an

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Speaker 2: emotive debate such as this. And it does get emotional strangely,

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Speaker 2: you know, sometimes it just goes beyond the pale with

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Speaker 2: some of the things are said.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, Frank. Just before you go, got a couple of

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Speaker 1: questions for you on the text line regarding cameras, and

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Speaker 1: Joe is saying, does the have to be a twenty

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Speaker 1: five dollars a week? At thirteen hundred a year, I

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Speaker 1: could set one up for next to nothing.

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Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, no. Misunderstood what I said, Matthew, right.

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Speaker 2: What I said was initially there was to be a

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Speaker 2: trial by a company called care Protect to place their

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Speaker 2: own cameras that were going to be monitored off site.

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Speaker 2: That never happened, So you're not going to have care

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Speaker 2: protect do that. What this legislation enables somebody to do.

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Speaker 2: Put their own camera in, right, It doesn't have to

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Speaker 2: be a sophisticated model whatever. It can be any camera

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Speaker 2: that they can get their hand on.

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Speaker 1: No worry, that's the answer, all right. And this is

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Speaker 1: from Julie, and I think it goes to the heart

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Speaker 1: of what you're saying. I nursed my mother at home

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Speaker 1: with our Home Support Services, great company. You advertise or

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Speaker 1: they advertise on your station. Since I installed CCTV monitoring

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Speaker 1: last year, it's given me freedom and peace of mind

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Speaker 1: for me to keep an eye on her anywhere with

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Speaker 1: the app. This will be the future of safe aged

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Speaker 1: care from Julie.

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Speaker 2: There you go, yeah, yeah. And also we want to

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Speaker 2: avoid situation like the Anne Marie Smith. Yes, yes, well right,

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Speaker 2: so that's not just people in nursing homes, but also

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Speaker 2: perhaps people with the disability and under indis care and

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Speaker 2: where people come into their home for instance. Rightly, so

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Speaker 2: that has covered and there have been other instances as well.

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Speaker 2: I've had a course of theft of property of people

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Speaker 2: in nursing homes or in care as well going on.

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Speaker 2: So This is all about security, peace of mind and

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Speaker 2: protecting that individual.

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Speaker 1: And you'll like this one. David says, I find that

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Speaker 1: disappointing independent MPs are introducing legislation that should be brought

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Speaker 1: in by governments in order to keep and benefit all

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Speaker 1: South Australians and keep them safe. Thank goodness for Frank.

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Speaker 2: There you go, all right, Thank you very much. It

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Speaker 2: was good talking to you again.

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Speaker 1: Go on your Frank. Thank you for your time. Richard

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Speaker 1: Pasco is called in Adelaide tech guy on the cameras.

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Speaker 3: Gooday, Richard, Yeah, morning, Matthew. There was a comment made

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Speaker 3: about Wi Fi. I've been involved with several times with

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Speaker 3: people who want to go and put things to monitor

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Speaker 3: their relatives in these homes. Unfortunately, nursing homes can restrict

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Speaker 3: what cameras and what devices that you bring in. So

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Speaker 3: just a blanket statement because it's on Wi Fi, they'll

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Speaker 3: be able to access it from the outside is actually

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Speaker 3: incorrect because nursing homes will only let the devices they

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Speaker 3: want to let in the door. So we've had issues

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Speaker 3: with people like Netflix on their TVs, Google devices for

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Speaker 3: two way communication. One of the times nursing homes won't let.

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Speaker 1: These things go on, Okay, there we are.

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Speaker 3: Thank you Richard, Thanks Matthew,